The Necessity of Temple Rites

[log]

Ponder the logical implications of this quotation:

… Ordinances instituted in the heavens before the foundation of the world, in the priesthood, for the salvation of men, are not to be altered or changed. All must be saved on the same principles. - Joseph Smith

...with the fact that the rites have been altered continually since whatever Joseph gave in the red brick store.

Let us also accept Brigham's word that Joseph told him to organize, or change, the rites from what Joseph administered.

Use your logic: what is the direct implication?

[clarkkent14]

We need to connect with Heaven, or the Powers of Heaven.

[lemuel]

The endowment is not an ordinance, perhaps? Maybe the ordinance is keeping the covenants taught in the endowment and receiving the reward promised in the endowment?

[Silas]

I would advice people who are concerned by this to go and do a session in the temple as soon as they are able. Pay very close attention. There is a difference between the presentation of the endowment and the endowment itself. In fact if you will listen for the words "Your endowment is..." you will be told what actually constitutes the endowment. That I would submit has not been changed. But the presentation? Well the presentation can be changed and it has been throughout the ages. Ancient prophets who had no access to temples received it on a mountain top administered by heavenly beings, I have no doubt that the presentation of their endowments were very different than ours today. But what the endowment actually consists of was the same in ancient times as it was for Joseph Smith as it was for me in the Provo temple even though how it was presented varied. Joseph gave Brigham the essentials of the endowment Brigham was tasked with organizing its presentation.

[log]

1. It means the temple rites of washings, anointings, and endowments, are not necessary for the salvation of men.

OR

2. It means we're in deep trouble.

Isaiah 24
1 Behold, the Lord maketh the earth empty, and maketh it waste, and turneth it upside down, and scattereth abroad the inhabitants thereof.

2 And it shall be, as with the people, so with the priest; as with the servant, so with his master; as with the maid, so with her mistress; as with the buyer, so with the seller; as with the lender, so with the borrower; as with the taker of usury, so with the giver of usury to him.

3 The land shall be utterly emptied, and utterly spoiled: for the Lord hath spoken this word.

4 The earth mourneth and fadeth away, the world languisheth and fadeth away, the haughty people of the earth do languish.

5 The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.

6 Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left.

This makes total sense, too, given JST Matthew 21.

NOTE: It's not a matter of "IF"; it is a matter of "WHEN."

[Gad]

I would advice people who are concerned by this to go and do a session in the temple as soon as they are able. Pay very close attention. There is a difference between the presentation of the endowment and the endowment itself. In fact if you will listen for the words "Your endowment is..." you will be told what actually constitutes the endowment. That I would submit has not been changed. But the presentation? Well the presentation can be changed and it has been throughout the ages. Ancient prophets who had no access to temples received it on a mountain top administered by heavenly beings, I have no doubt that the presentation of their endowments were very different than ours today. But what the endowment actually consists of was the same in ancient times as it was for Joseph Smith as it was for me in the Provo temple even though how it was presented varied. Joseph gave Brigham the essentials of the endowment Brigham was tasked with organizing its presentation.

That statement was added in 1990 and was originally in the JoD. No need to be circumspect. The full quote is:

Your endowment is to receive all those ordinances in the house of the Lord which are necessary for you, to enable you to walk back to the presence of the Father, passing the angels who stand as sentinels, being enabled to give them the key words, the signs, and the tokens pertaining to the holy priesthood and gain your eternal exaltation.

Prior to 1990 the statement was:

The endowment is to prepare you for exaltation in the celestial kingdom.

[gkearney]

Ponder the logical implications of this quotation:

… Ordinances instituted in the heavens before the foundation of the world, in the priesthood, for the salvation of men, are not to be altered or changed. All must be saved on the same principles. - Joseph Smith

...with the fact that the rites have been altered continually since whatever Joseph gave in the red brick store.

Let us also accept Brigham's word that Joseph told him to organize, or change, the rites from what Joseph administered.

Use your logic: what is the direct implication?

You are confusing the message with the messenger. The message is the endowment, what we are taught. The messenger is the presentation of the endowment, how we are taught it. The presentation changes to meet the needs of the world wide membership. It was at one time a play done by live performer we now have films.

[log]

The message is the endowment, what we are taught.

As a matter of fact, the message is not the endowment either, in the same way an invitation to a party is not a party.

[TZONE]

Weren't penalties oaths? I was not in the pre-90 endowment. Is that a presentation or message?

[livy111us]

I do not believe your interpretation of that Joseph Smith quote is correct. Joseph Smith himself stated that the endowment wasn't perfect but was good enough "for now." Other Prophets spoke about differences in the future temple endowment as well. The endowment was never meant to be static, but changing as we progressed as a people. When we are ready for it then we will receive more in the endowment. Consider these quotes:

After we completed these ordinances Brother Joseph turned to me and said, 'Brother Brigham, this is not arranged perfectly; however, we have done the best we could under the circumstances in which we are placed. I wish you to take this matter in hand; organize and systematize all these ceremonies.' . . . [Each time we performed the ordinances under Joseph's supervision,] I got something more, so I was able to organize them. When we performed the ordinances in the Temple at Nauvoo I understood and knew how to situate [everything]. We had our ceremonies pretty correct." (L. John Nuttal Diary, originals in Archives and Manuscripts, Harold B. Lee Library, Brigham Young University, under date of 7 February 1877.)

It is supposed by this people that we have all the ordinances in our possession for life and salvation, and exaltation, and that we are administering in these ordinances. This is not the case. We are in possession of all the ordinances that can be administered in the flesh; but there are other ordinances and administrations that must be administered beyond this world. I know you would ask what they are. I will mention one. We have not, neither can we receive here, the ordinance and the keys of the resurrection. They will be given to those who have passed off this stage of action and have received their bodies again, as many have already done and many more will. They will be ordained, by those who hold the keys of the resurrection, to go forth and resurrect the Saints, just as we receive the ordinance of baptism, then the keys of authority to baptize others for the remission of their sins. This is one of the ordinances we cannot receive here and there are many more. We hold the authority to dispose of, alter and change the elements; but we have not received authority to organize native elements, to even make a spear of grass grow… Another item: We have not the power in the flesh to create and bring forth or produce a spirit; but we have the power to produce a temporal body. The germ of this, God has placed within us. And when our spirits receive their bodies and through our faithfulness we are worthy to be crowned, we will then receive authority to produce both spirit and body. But these keys we cannot receive in the flesh. Herein, brethren, you can perceive that we have not finished and cannot finish our work while we live here, no more than Jesus did while He was in the flesh. We cannot receive, while in the flesh, the keys to form and fashion kingdoms and to organize matter, for they are beyond our capacity and calling, beyond this world. In the resurrection, men who have been faithful and diligent in all things in the flesh, have kept their first and second estate, and are worthy to be crowned Gods, even the Sons of God, will be ordained to organize matter. How much matter do you suppose there is between here and some of the fixed stars which we can see? Enough to frame many, very many millions of such earths as this, yet it is now so diffused, clear and pure that we look through it and behold the stars. Yet the matter is there. Can you form any conception of this? Can you form any idea of the minuteness of matter? -Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 15:136-137, August 24, 1872

Orson F. Whitney differs a little and explains that these and other ordinances will be performed here on earth.
Orson F. Whitney: “We will build a temple unto the name of the Almighty God of Jacob. Here in the wilderness of the desert, amid the forest of mountains, upon the foundation which we this day consecrate unto the Lord of hosts, we will rear a superstructure wherein we can receive the ministration of angels and holy beings; wherein we can receive instructions and perform offices for the redemption of our dead; receive keys for the resurrection of the Saints of God, wherein we can meet the spirits of just men made perfect and again strike hands with the martyred Prophets Joseph and Hyrum, and all those who have suffered and died for the testimony of Jesus.”
(Contributor, vol. 6 (October 1884-September 1885), Vol. Vi. April, 1885. No. 7. 247 - 249.)


I can't recall who said this but think they bring up a good point (I think it was Greg Kearney)
We believe in continuing revelation. It was obviously "changed" from any possible proto-ancient source by rendering it in English in the first place. We "change" it every time we translate it into a new language. Each time you stage Hamlet you "change" it, but the play remains in essence the same. Symbolic ritual cannot be inerrant, because symbols are inherently multivalent, with different meaning to different individuals and interpretative communities. Symbolic ritual it is like iconography. Orthodox iconography has a lengthy tradition where within a church the form, media, location, content, colors, etc. can change, sometimes dramatically. Nonetheless, the essential spiritual message of the icon does not change.

[log]

Unfortunately, none of that touches the logical conclusion, and, indeed, it adds more fuel to the fire.

I will also say that, for myself, whenever someone says that the literal meaning of words is a problematic "interpretation," that raises a red flag.

[livy111us]

We must see things entirely different then. I see prophets prophesying the endowment will change and people using one quote to prooftext their theory to cast doubt on the Church. But, can't say I care all that much what you believe so here is an article on the subject which may or may not shed some light on it for you.
Do you also believe God was lying when He said that He is the same yesterday, today and forever when He was once a man and then exalted?

http://www.mormonmonastery.org/mormon-temple-changes/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Some people have asserted that Joseph Smith believed and taught that the Temple ordinances always had been and always would be done exactly as he presented them. In other words, they believe the Temple ordinances should be eternally unchangeable in every aspect. They attempt to support this idea in several ways.

First, they frequently cite Joseph Smith.

Ordinances instituted in the heavens before the foundation of the world, in the priesthood, for the salvation of men, are not to be altered or changed. (TPJS, 308)

I believe that in context and properly understood, this and other such references do not support the idea of one single ceremony which must be performed in exactly the same manner from Adam on down.

Rather, the full quotation teaches that God does not change what is required of us, in terms of covenantal ordinances. Note especially the last sentence in the complete quotation, which I’ve emphasized.

It was the design of the councils of heaven before the world was, that the principles and laws of the priesthood should be predicated upon the gathering of the people in every age of the world. Jesus did everything to gather the people, and they would not be gathered, and He therefore poured out curses upon them. Ordinances instituted in the heavens before the foundation of the world, in the priesthood, for the salvation of men, are not to be altered or changed. All must be saved on the same principles. (TPJS, 308)

In other words, baptism and other ordinances can’t be a salvational requirement for some but not for others. Other teachings of Joseph Smith and the early brethren support this interpretation.Every individual who is prepared for the celestial kingdom must go through the same things.

Discourses of Brigham Young, p. 395.
Every individual who is prepared for the celestial kingdom must go through the same things.

TPJS, 308.
If a man gets a fullness of the priesthood of God he has to get it in the same way that Jesus Christ obtained it, and that was by keeping all the commandments and obeying all the ordinances of the house of the Lord.

TPJS, 331.
The question is frequently asked, ‘Can we not be saved without going through with all those ordinances?’ I would answer, No, not the fulness of salvation…. any person who is exalted to the highest mansion has to abide a celestial law, and the whole law too.

TPJS, 59.
We all admit that the Gospel has ordinances, and if so, had it not always ordinances, and were not its ordinances always the same?…all that were ever saved, were saved through the power of this great plan of redemption, as much before the coming of Christ as since; if not, God has had different plans in operation (if we may so express it), to bring men back to dwell with Himself; and this we cannot believe.

From The Essential Brigham Young, (Salt Lake City: Signature Books, 1992):89.(This one is longer, so I’ve underlined key points.)
I wish to speak a few words about the Bible as I have hinted at it. The Ordinances of the Kingdom of God on the Earth are the same to the children of Adam from the commencement to the end of his posterity pertaining to the carnal state on this Earth, and the winding up scene of this mortality. With regard to the Bible we frequently say, we believe the Bible, but circumstances alter cases, for what is now required for the people may not be required of a people that may live a hundred years hence. But I wish you to understand, with regard to the Ordinances of God’s House to save the people in the Celestial Kingdom of our God, there is no change from the days of Adam to the present time, neither will there be until the last of his posterity is gathered into the Kingdom of God.Those who are not acquainted with our doctrine are astonished, and say, “That is strange indeed; we thought no such thing as preaching faith, repentance, and baptism was practiced in ancient, or Old Testament times.” I can tell you that no man from the days of Adam, no woman from the days of Eve to this day, who have lived, and who are now living upon the Earth will go into the Kingdom of their Father and God, to be crowned with Jesus Christ, without passing through the same Ordinances of the House of God, you and I have obeyed. I wish you distinctly to understand that.There are many duties, and callings spoken of in the scriptures, and there are many not written, those for instance which are handed out to you by your President as circumstances require. Those imposed by the President of the Church of God, or by the president of any portion of it, are duties as necessary to be observed as though they were written in the Bible; but these requirements, duties, callings etc. change with the circumstances that surround the people of God. But when you speak of the system of Salvation to bring back the children of Adam and Eve into the presence of our Father and God, it is the same in all ages, among all people, and under all circumstances worlds without end[.] Amen.

Clearly, Joseph Smith and Brigham Young taught that the same ordinances, beginning with baptism and up to the ordinances of the temple, will accompany the preaching of the Gospel in a dispensation, and are required for all people regardless of the time period they lived in. They are not teaching that every detail must be the same from Adam on down.

Another reason some have assumed nothing Temple related may change is based on a scripture. They derive this idea from an interpretation of Heb. 13:8, which reads “Jesus Christ is the same yesterday today and forever.” They interpret this to mean that God and his commands are unchangeable in every respect, and thus the temple ordinances have always been presented in exactly the same way. However, there is good reason to question this interpretation.

What does this phrase really mean? As BYU Philosophy professor Jim Faulconer notes, the phrase in Hebrews 13:8 appears “in the context of giving direction for right conduct… We also find it in latter-day revelation: 1 Nephi 10:18, 2 Nephi 2:4, 2 Nephi 27:23, 2 Nephi 29:9, Alma 31:7, Mormon 9:9, Moroni 10:19, and D&C 20:12. In each of these cases, with one possible exception, the writer is writing about trusting God or about the gifts of God. 2 Nephi 29:9 stands out because it is, at first glance about neither of these, but it is about miracles: we must work by faith because the Lord continues to work through miracles. That seems to me to make it a scripture that uses the term in speaking of the fact that we can trust God.”

Let’s ignore the context laid out above for sake of argument. Do the scriptures support the idea that because God “is the same yesterday today and forever,” His commands never change? Does God never change His mind?

Let’s consider some examples.

God changing his mind.

1) scriptures. a)nicham. “This shall not happen” O lord he is so small! . c) bargaining with Abraham. d) Psa. 110:4.

(Note that though God may change His mind, once He has promised or covenanted something, he is bound to it. His promises are reliable.)

2) Commandments changing. a) Circumcision

Some thoughts about temple changes in modern and ancient context.

We receive our temple ordinances in English, a language not around until the middle ages. Did Adam or Moses or Peter receive their ordinances in English? Though a silly question, we tend to make the assumption that how we do things today is the way they have always been done.

In Old Testament times, details of the Tabernacle and Temple and how the prescribed ordinances and sacrifices were carried out also underwent changes. For example, the molten sea on the back of 12 oxen which was used for ritual washings (2 Chr. 4:6) did not exist in the Tabernacle. How would they have carried it around? A smaller washbasin (or laver) was made, according to Exo. 30:18. The large bronze “sea” seven feet high and roughly 14 feet across, was made by Solomon for his temple (see 1 Kings 7:23). Solomon also constructed 10 smaller washbasins (1Ki 7:38 /2Chr. 4:6)

Later on, King Ahaz (one in a series of less-than-righteous kings of the southern kingdom of Judah) removed the “sea” from the backs of the oxen and placed it on a stone foundation (2 Kings 16:7). When the Babylonians captured Jerusalem in 586/87, it was broken up and hauled off to Babylon (Jeremiah 52:17 and 2 Kings 25:13) No mention is made of the molten sea after this time, and it was presumably not rebuilt, but replaced by smaller water holders that performed the same function.

Clearly, the Lord may alter and adapt such things as necessary for the culture and time the ordinances are in. Language (Hebrew, English, Adamic?), location (on a mountain, in a garden, in a dedicated temple), manner of presentation (live or film, with decorations, murals and props or not), or other things that President McKay referred to as “mechanics” etc.

As Brigham Young said above, circumstances alter cases and as long as the ordinances themselves are the same ones required of each person in each dispensation, the ceremony, the packaging, the mechanics or wording may change. Let us not confuse the message with the messenger, or the realities and symbols with the mechanics through which they are presented.

“Now do not any of you apostatize because it will have six towers, and Joseph only built one.” JD 1:133 Brigham Young, April 6, 1853.

[log]

We must see things entirely different then.

We do. I believe Joseph, and literally, at that.

I see prophets prophesying the endowment will change and people using one quote to prooftext their theory to cast doubt on the Church.

I understand that you see that.

I don't envy you being in a place where evidence and logic causes you to doubt the Church.

But, can't say I care all that much what you believe so here is an article on the subject which may or may not shed some light on it for you.

I believe you when you say you don't care.

Do you also believe God was lying when He said that He is the same yesterday, today and forever when He was once a man and then exalted?

No. Do you?

Anyways, your citations unfortunately do precisely nothing to defuse the OP, neither do they touch the conclusion.

Your article is summarily dismissed - on these grounds. "Study the word of God, and preach it and not your opinions, for no man’s opinion is worth a straw. Advance no principle but what you can prove, for one scriptural proof is worth ten thousand opinions." My conclusion is proven.

Your position could justify sprinkling for baptism, extreme unction, and homosexual sealings; a celibate priesthood, and a papacy.

[log]

Let's see, here's some more.

If there is no change of ordinances there is no change of Priesthood. Wherever the ordinances of the
Gospel are administered there is the priesthood. - WJS, p.20

Now the purpose in himself in the winding up scene of the last dispensation is, that all things
pertaining to that dispensation should be conducted precisely in accordance with the preceeding
dispensations. And again, God purposed in himself that there should not be an eternal fulness until
every dispensation should be fulfilled and gathered together in one and that all things whatsoever that
should be gathered together in one in those dispensations unto the same fulness and eternal glory should
be in Christ Jesus, therefore he set the ordinances to be the same for Ever and ever and set Adam to
watch over them to reveal them from heaven to man or to send Angels to reveal them Heb 1 Chap. 16
verse. - WJS, p. 46

The power, glory, and
blessings of the priesthood could not continue with those who received ordination only as their
righteousness continued, for Cain also being authorized to offer sacrifice but not offering it in
righteousness, therefore he was cursed. It signifies then, that the ordinances must be kept in the very
way God has appointed, otherwise their priesthood will prove a cursing instead of a blessing. - WJS, p. 47

And so on and so forth.

I'm sure if I continue, I will find many more in the same vein.

[log]

Lo and behold, the original.

O. Jerusalem. &c. whence are in the curse of Allmighty God that was to be poured out upon the heads
of the Jews? That they would not be gathered. because they would not let Christ gather them. It was the
design in the Councils of heaven before the world was that the principle & law of that priesthood was
predicated upon the gathering of the people in every age of the world. Jesus did every thing possible to
gather the people & they would not be gathered and he poured out curses upon them Ordinances were
instituted in heaven before the foundation of the world of in the priesthood, for the salvation of man. not
be altered. not to be changed. all must be saved upon the same principle. - WJS, p. 179

where there is no change of priesthood there is no change of ordinances says Paul. If god has not
changed the ordinances & priesthood, howl ye sectarians, if he has where has he revealed it. have ye
turned revelators? then why deny it? - WJS, p. 179, emphasis added

In light of these extremely clear teachings, this passage takes on an ominous meaning.

Baptism for the dead, God decreed before the foundation of the world that that ordinance should be
administered in a house prepared for that purpose. If a man gets the fulness of God he has to get [it] in
the same way that Jesus Christ obtain it & that was by keeping all the ordinances of the house of the
Lord. Men will say I will never forsake you but will stand by you at all times but the moment you
teach them some of the mysteries of God that are retained in the heavens and are to be revealed to the
children of men when they are prepared, They will be the first to stone you & put you to death. It was
the same principle that Crusified the Lord Jesus Christ. - WJS, p. 181

Speaking of Nauvoo, Joseph said this.

But to the text why gather the people together in this place For the same purpose that Jesus wanted to
gather the Jews, to receive the ordinances the blessings & the glories that God has in store for his Saints.
And I would now ask this assembly and all the Saints if they will now build this house & receive the
ordinances & Blessings which God has in store for you, or will you not build unto the Lord this house
& let him pass by & bestow these blessings upon another I pause for a reply - WJS, p. 181

We know what the Saints chose.

He beautifully and in a most
powerful manner, illustrated the necessity of the gathering and the building of the Temple that those
ordinances may be administered which are necessary preparations for the world to come: he exhorted
the people in impressive terms to be diligent—to be up and doing lest the tabernacle pass over to another
people and we lose the blessing. - WJS, p. 182

Those with ears to hear, hear these things for what they are saying. Anyone with a copy of WJS can find the rest. I think this suffices.

[log]

Gosh, I wish I could find even a single teaching from Joseph which supported the notion that so long as we have ordinances called by certain names - like, say, "baptism," "laying of hands," "endowments," and "washings and anointings," then their forms and contents are infinitely malleable while remaining valid.

Oddly, I can't seem to find it! It seems we have to go to Brigham Young and others, after Joseph, for anything resembling that - including the original claimed charge from Joseph to systematize the temple rites (the law of witnesses seems to have not been obeyed on this crucial point).

Doctrine and Covenants 6:28
28 And now, behold, I give unto you, and also unto my servant Joseph, the keys of this gift, which shall bring to light this ministry; and in the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.

[Contemplator]

Log,

You share a number of quotes with, I suspect, some purpose. I am not sure that I understand what you are really trying to say. It seems to me that the changing of the rites in the modern temple ceremony is well documented. An important question, though, is what do we get from temple worship, regardless of the state of the rites? For example, Simeon and Anna served in the temple in Jerusalem in the years leading up to Jesus' birth. They were able to see the Christ in the baby Jesus, despite any shortcomings of those who officiated in the temple in that day. I have found that our temple rites, in their current form, still teach the way back to God. We can, right now, receive all of the blessings of knowing God that are described in the scriptures. And, the temple can help in the process. It seems like the real question is how well do we receive what is available to us? Will we see Christ?

Please help me understand the point you are making? Is it encouraging me to draw closer to God in some way? Is it merely condemning the church? Thank you for the ideas you share and for your clear knowledge and love of the scriptures.

[log]

My point is just what I said: #1 either the temple rites which have been altered are not necessary for salvation, or #2 we're in trouble. That is the logical conclusion which cannot be controverted on evidentiary grounds, neither scriptural grounds, nor logical grounds.

The significance of that conclusion is up to the individual. It should provide cause for reflection for those who suppose they are saved by virtue of having undergone the ordinances.

I will say this - I agree with Contemplator that the endowments still teach the way back to God. In fact, if one looks very hard at them, even some of the alterations to the rites show the hand of God. And God, as those who know him may attest, has a sense of humor.

The Church, like the temple, is a teaching tool. I have no need to condemn it. It is what it is. While I wish my days were in Joseph's day, yet there is much to be amused at now.

[log]

Oh yes, the later citations from Nauvoo were to establish that whatever we have as our temple rites, they are not what Joseph was talking about which would have come from Nauvoo, which the Lord was to come and give.

In fact...

President J Smith arose and said it is impossible to continue the subject that I spoke upon yesterday in
Consequence of the weekness of my lungs. Yet I have a proclamation to make to the Elders you know
the Lord has led the Church untill the present time I have now a great proclamation for the Elders to
teach the Church hereafter which is in relation to Zion, The whole of North and South America is Zion,
the mountain of the Lords House is in the Centre of North & South America, when the House is done,
Baptism font erectd and finished & the worthy are washed, anointed, endowed & ordained Kings &
priests, which must be done in this life, when the place is prepared you must go through all the
ordinances of the house of the Lord so that you who have any dead friends must go through all the
ordinances for them the same as for yourselves; then the Elders are to go through all America & build
up Churches untill all Zion is built up, but not to commence to do this untill the Temple is built up here
and the Elders endowed then go forth & accomplish the work & build up stakes in all North and South
America, Their will be some place ordained for the redeeming of the dead I think this place will be the
one, so their will be gathering fast enough here. President Smith lungs failed him and he appointed
Elder G. J. Adams to occupy the time during the foornoon He however remarked that his proclamation
just made was the greatest ever made as all could not come here; but it was necessary that enough
should come to build up the temple & get an endowment so that the work could spread abroad. - WJS, p. 282

The temple referred to, of course, is Nauvoo, which was never completed. From this as well I infer that New Jerusalem will be in Central America - which fits with the thesis that the descendants of Lehi will be the ones building it.

See, in particular, this:

3 Nephi 20:22
22 And behold, this people will I establish in this land, unto the fulfilling of the covenant which I made with your father Jacob; and it shall be a New Jerusalem. And the powers of heaven shall be in the midst of this people; yea, even I will be in the midst of you.

The aforementioned quotation from Joseph was confirmed by another present at that sermon.

Prest. J. Smith said he must give up the subject of yesterday.
Made a proclamation.—I have another great and grand Revelation—great discussion where Zion is.—
The whole America is Zion that is the Zion where the Mountain of the Lords house shall be. about the
central part of N. & South America.—
soon as the Temple is finished.—Lord hath ordained where these last & most important ordinances must
be in a house.—provided for the purpose.—when we can get a house built first there is the place.—Bap.
washed. anointed, sealed &c for the dead the same as for themselves.—
from henceforth the elders shall build churches where ever the people receive the gospel sufficient. then
build stakes to this place. I verily believe that God will establish this place for the salvation of the dead.
—those who want to save their dead can come hither. those who do not wish to come hither to live can
bring their families and attend the ordinances and return. - WJS, p. 282

[SpeedRacer]

This conversation is funny. The two parties at odds are using the same words with different meanings and trying to communicate. They seem to be able to understand each other because it is all in english, the problem is there are two different dictionaries in play.

You should define all of your terms so that each other can understand. What do I mean?
Define:
Ordinance
Change
Endowment
Annointing
God the Father
Jesus Christ
Sealing
Sealed
Required ordinances
This Life
Revelation
Continuing Revelation
Gospel
Dispensation
Holy Spirit of Promise
Faith
Hope
Holy Spirit
Holy Ghost
Heaven
Powers of Heaven
Priesthood
etc.

Then we would understand what each other means when we write words. Each of these definitions may lead to long discussions to see if we all agree on them, but probably not. Because of that, coming to an agreement on this subject is beyond reasonable, as the underlying vocabulary has not been established.

[log]

Actually, the logic of the OP and the conclusion depends solely upon "ordinance," "alter," "change," and "salvation."

Nobody seems to be seriously contending those definitions.

[swiftbrook]

Ponder the logical implications of this quotation:

… Ordinances instituted in the heavens before the foundation of the world, in the priesthood, for the salvation of men, are not to be altered or changed. All must be saved on the same principles. - Joseph Smith

...with the fact that the rites have been altered continually since whatever Joseph gave in the red brick store.

Let us also accept Brigham's word that Joseph told him to organize, or change, the rites from what Joseph administered.

Use your logic: what is the direct implication?

Joseph's quote to me suggests that the ordinances he is speaking of that can not be altered/changed are heavenly/eternal rites administered by a just God. The part about "all must be saved on the same principles" suggests those eternal laws through which all can obtain any blessing in the same way - by obedience to those laws. I just don't read that quote as relating to our current Church-administered ordinances that are delivered to any that man deems worthy through interview process.

[swiftbrook]

I suggest this material for study:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/183144071/Ore ... Priesthood" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Contemplator]

Log,

It is always a challenge to have an open discussion with someone who claims that their two possibilities are the only possible conclusions. But, I will try a few observations in the hope that you are open to being only partially correct.

My point is just what I said: #1 either the temple rites which have been altered are not necessary for salvation, or #2 we're in trouble. That is the logical conclusion which cannot be controverted on evidentiary grounds, neither scriptural grounds, nor logical grounds.

The significance of that conclusion is up to the individual. It should provide cause for reflection for those who suppose they are saved by virtue of having undergone the ordinances.

...

I think there are actually two possibilities in place of your "#2 we're in trouble." First, some of us may actually be in trouble. For those who believe that the temple rites, as they currently exist, are an end in and of themselves, and the actual necessary and sufficient ordinances for salvation, will reject the fulness along with the Gentiles as Jesus taught in 3 Nephi 16:10 -

And thus commandeth the Father that I should say unto you: At that day when the Gentiles shall sin against my gospel, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, and shall be lifted up in the pride of their hearts above all nations, and above all the people of the whole earth, and shall be filled with all manner of lyings, and of deceits, and of mischiefs, and all manner of hypocrisy, and murders, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, and of secret abominations; and if they shall do all those things, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, behold, saith the Father, I will bring the fulness of my gospel from among them.

But, among those Gentiles will be a subset of people who are described in 1 Nephi 14:1-2 -

1 And it shall come to pass, that if the Gentiles shall hearken unto the Lamb of God in that day that he shall manifest himself unto them in word, and also in power, in very deed, unto the taking away of their stumbling blocks—
2 And harden not their hearts against the Lamb of God, they shall be numbered among the seed of thy father; yea, they shall be numbered among the house of Israel; and they shall be a blessed people upon the promised land forever;

The rites that we have today may be necessary, even in their changed form, to help us come to Christ in such a way that He will manifest Himself to us in "word, and also in power, in very deed, unto the taking away of [our] stumbling blocks." The current rites may be necessary, but not sufficient, for those Gentiles who will hearken to the Lamb of God in our day and be numbered among the remnant spoken of in the Book of Mormon.

The scriptures seem to suggest three possibilities:

1. The changed ordinances are not necessary
2. We are in trouble because they are necessary but have been changed and are no longer sufficient
3. The ordinances are necessary, even in changed form, because they bring us to the sufficient revelation of Christ

I could be wrong, though. I just couldn't resist the certainty of your assertion that there are only two possibilities. ;) The third possibility gives hope.

[log]

#3 is not suggested by the scriptures, and is contraindicated by them (Isaiah 24:5, D&C 22), as well as Joseph's explicit teaching that salvific ordinances are not to be altered and not to be changed.