Search the Scriptures

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log
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Search the Scriptures

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"I don’t care what the scriptures say; I care what the current prophet says they say." - Paul H. Dunn (emphasis his)
There was once a time when the common teaching in the Church concerning the scriptures vis-a-vis the General Authorities, including the President of the Church, was the polar opposite: "If I say anything that is contrary to the scriptures, the scriptures prevail," said President Joseph Fielding Smith.

President Smith's teaching has not been heard for many years.  Elder Dunn's perspective, despite the problematic source, seems now to be the received wisdom, albeit in an expanded form: we seem to not care what the scriptures say, but rather what any General Authority says they say.

This seems odd for a Church which teaches that the General Authorities, and even the President of the Church, are men, and as such are liable to err, even while in the execution of their callings.  High callings in the Church are not guarantors of doctrinal purity or even personal righteousness; neither is a lack of calling (or even lack of Church membership) necessarily a sign of doctrinal impurity or personal wickedness.  Even the spiritual gifts of God come unto all men, severally as He will; it is possible to find spiritually gifted individuals outside of the Church, while it is also possible to find spiritually impoverished individuals within it.  The Lord draws His husbandmen from the pool of candidates within the Church.

The scriptures are the united voice of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.  We have agreed, by common consent, that their teachings are binding upon all, for both doctrine and reproof.  No calling in the Church places anyone above the authority of the scriptures, and no manual or handbook has been accepted by common consent.  The General Authorities give counsel concerning the current circumstances we find ourselves in, which we should obey unless counseled otherwise directly by the Lord, but they may not pronounce a binding doctrine or scriptural readings merely on their own say-so.  The only way to make such pronouncements binding upon all would be by the common consent of the Church, thus making it scripture and the united voice of the Church.

This much seems clear, at least to me.  President Smith's teaching was correct when he was alive, and there is no reason to suppose anything has changed to invalidate it.  Elder Dunn was ill advised, in my view, to outsource his responsibility to search the scriptures diligently to know the word of God, and I believe his personal outcome supports this view.
President Joseph Smith read the 14th chapter of Ezekiel -- said the Lord had declared by the Prophet [Ezekiel], that the people should each one stand for himself, and depend on no man or men in that state of corruption of the Jewish church -- that righteous persons could only deliver their own souls -- applied it to the present state of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints -- said if the people departed from the Lord, they must fall -- that they were depending on the Prophet, hence were darkened in their minds, in consequence of neglecting the duties devolving upon themselves, envious towards the innocent, while they afflict the virtuous with their shafts of envy (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 237).
Last edited by log on November 15th, 2013, 5:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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clarkkent14
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Re: Search the Scriptures

Post by clarkkent14 »

Let the cognitive dissonance begin!

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marc
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Re: Search the Scriptures

Post by marc »

Paul H. Dunn used to tell some whopper stories.

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laronius
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Re: Search the Scriptures

Post by laronius »

I don't see the real problem existing in the Church being "the Brethren" vs. the scriptures. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Rather, what I see as the real problem is people not seeking the Spirit enough. Even the scriptures can be misineterpreted if not read by the Spirit. Like every old western series on tv always had one episode of some crazy religious fanatic who was causing trouble with his grown but socially inept children all because he interpreted the Bible in some way it wasn't meant to be.

If people lived close to the Spirit both the Brethren and the scriptures would be put in their proper place in our lives.

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MelissaM
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Re: Search the Scriptures

Post by MelissaM »

http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/a ... n-doctrine" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"Not every statement made by a Church leader, past or present, necessarily constitutes doctrine. A single statement made by a single leader on a single occasion often represents a personal, though well-considered, opinion, but is not meant to be officially binding for the whole Church. With divine inspiration, the First Presidency (the prophet and his two counselors) and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles (the second-highest governing body of the Church) counsel together to establish doctrine that is consistently proclaimed in official Church publications. This doctrine resides in the four “standard works” of scripture (the Holy Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price), official declarations and proclamations, and the Articles of Faith. Isolated statements are often taken out of context, leaving their original meaning distorted."

And that's all I have to say about that, except "READ YOUR SCRIPTURES! The Ensign is not on the above list.

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marc
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Re: Search the Scriptures

Post by marc »

D&C 68

1 My servant, Orson Hyde, was called by his ordination to proclaim the everlasting gospel, by the Spirit of the living God, from people to people, and from land to land, in the congregations of the wicked, in their synagogues, reasoning with and expounding all scriptures unto them.

2 And, behold, and lo, this is an ensample unto all those who were ordained unto this priesthood, whose mission is appointed unto them to go forth—

3 And this is the ensample unto them, that they shall speak as they are moved upon by the Holy Ghost.

4 And whatsoever they shall speak when moved upon by the Holy Ghost shall be scripture, shall be the will of the Lord, shall be the mind of the Lord, shall be the word of the Lord, shall be the voice of the Lord, and the power of God unto salvation.

5 Behold, this is the promise of the Lord unto you, O ye my servants.

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Franktalk
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Re: Search the Scriptures

Post by Franktalk »

log wrote: The scriptures are the united voice of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.  
The scriptures are written words that come from God. They are all over the place. The canon is but a small part. God is not in a box made by man. Common consent is something we are told to do to make us think as a whole. But then the laity fall in line with what ever the leaders say. So the laity are not following a commandment from God. I for one am not surprised. Very few follow God's voice. Most reach out and follow a voice of man thinking that voice knows God. It is a situation ripe for corruption.

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Simon
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Re: Search the Scriptures

Post by Simon »

If we think about it, the scriptures of old are the "talks" of all the ancient prophets given in past "general conferences"... What I find so outstanding about the Book of Mormon is how Nephi, Alma, and all the prophets til Moroni all seem to agree with eachother. They quote eachother, talk of eachother and even though a 1000 years lie in between them, they seem to be of one "opinion" about doctrine. There is an oneness within the scriptures, and a clear interpretation of it. What the prophets teach today has to fit that same pattern, it has to interfer the same way as it has interfered between all these ancient prophets in the Book of Mormon. If a prophet today would teach doctrine contrary to the Book of Mormon, I would rather trust the many tprophets that were in harmony with eachother over a long period of time, than to trust one single person who suddenly starts to teach contrary to such overwheming testimonys.
Last edited by Simon on November 16th, 2013, 11:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

jo1952
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Re: Search the Scriptures

Post by jo1952 »

Simon wrote:If we think about it, he scriptures of old are the "talks" of all the ancient prophets given in past "general conferences"... What I find so outstanding about the Book of Mormon is how Nephi, Alma, and all the prophets til Moroni all seem to agree with eachother. They quote eachother, talk of eachother and even though a 1000 years lie in between them, they seem to be of one "opinion" about doctrine. There is an oneness within the scriptures, and a clear interpretation of it. What the prophets teach today has to fit that same pattern, it has to interfer the same way as it has interfered between all these ancient prophets in the Book of Mormon. If a prophet today would teach doctrine contrary to the Book of Mormon, I would rather trust the many tprophets that were in harmony with eachother over a long period of time, than to trust one single person who suddenly starts to teach contrary to such overwheming testimonys.
Good observation, Simon. What we see with our latter-day prophets is not the same being of one opinion about doctrine as taking place in canonized "talks". I wonder if the talks recorded in the Bible or the BoM were vetted and changed in order to make sure that the corrected version of what the Holy Spirit meant to have the messengers speak is the one we wound up with.

Silas
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Re: Search the Scriptures

Post by Silas »

I think this problem is in part a result of the misunderstanding we have about the role of a modern prophet. A modern prophet doesn't change what has happened before he gives us what we need today. ie Noah couldn't lead the people of israel out of egypt with words he wrote down many years prior. Similarly Joseph Smith was pretty silent on protecting our families from the dangers of internet pornography. It seems there is a trend on this site to discount the need for leadership and while I whole heartedly agree that we need to each be recieving personal revelation for ourselves I don't think this discounts the need for leadership from modern prophet.

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Franktalk
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Re: Search the Scriptures

Post by Franktalk »

Silas wrote:I think this problem is in part a result of the misunderstanding we have about the role of a modern prophet. A modern prophet doesn't change what has happened before he gives us what we need today. ie Noah couldn't lead the people of israel out of egypt with words he wrote down many years prior. Similarly Joseph Smith was pretty silent on protecting our families from the dangers of internet pornography. It seems there is a trend on this site to discount the need for leadership and while I whole heartedly agree that we need to each be recieving personal revelation for ourselves I don't think this discounts the need for leadership from modern prophet.
If the modern prophet is telling the laity to stay away from Porn then the laity are ignoring the prophet. So the fruits of the prophet are not good. If indeed the Holy Spirit is guiding the prophet and the laity then why is there a disconnect between what they say and what the laity does. I wonder if the 15 act the same as the laity behind closed doors.

Silas
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Re: Search the Scriptures

Post by Silas »

Ever here of a guy called Abinadi, or Noah? Not the most successful of missionaries based on number of converts, yet accepted of the Lord and successful in their missions. And besides that some members are repenting of their use of pornography, some are not. Some will go on to inherit salvation and exaltation and some will not.

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laronius
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Re: Search the Scriptures

Post by laronius »

Franktalk wrote:
Silas wrote:I think this problem is in part a result of the misunderstanding we have about the role of a modern prophet. A modern prophet doesn't change what has happened before he gives us what we need today. ie Noah couldn't lead the people of israel out of egypt with words he wrote down many years prior. Similarly Joseph Smith was pretty silent on protecting our families from the dangers of internet pornography. It seems there is a trend on this site to discount the need for leadership and while I whole heartedly agree that we need to each be recieving personal revelation for ourselves I don't think this discounts the need for leadership from modern prophet.
If the modern prophet is telling the laity to stay away from Porn then the laity are ignoring the prophet. So the fruits of the prophet are not good. If indeed the Holy Spirit is guiding the prophet and the laity then why is there a disconnect between what they say and what the laity does. I wonder if the 15 act the same as the laity behind closed doors.
So if I ignore what you just said, then according to your reasoning, you don't know what you are talking about.

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Simon
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Re: Search the Scriptures

Post by Simon »

jo1952 wrote:
Simon wrote:If we think about it, he scriptures of old are the "talks" of all the ancient prophets given in past "general conferences"... What I find so outstanding about the Book of Mormon is how Nephi, Alma, and all the prophets til Moroni all seem to agree with eachother. They quote eachother, talk of eachother and even though a 1000 years lie in between them, they seem to be of one "opinion" about doctrine. There is an oneness within the scriptures, and a clear interpretation of it. What the prophets teach today has to fit that same pattern, it has to interfer the same way as it has interfered between all these ancient prophets in the Book of Mormon. If a prophet today would teach doctrine contrary to the Book of Mormon, I would rather trust the many tprophets that were in harmony with eachother over a long period of time, than to trust one single person who suddenly starts to teach contrary to such overwheming testimonys.
Good observation, Simon. What we see with our latter-day prophets is not the same being of one opinion about doctrine as taking place in canonized "talks". I wonder if the talks recorded in the Bible or the BoM were vetted and changed in order to make sure that the corrected version of what the Holy Spirit meant to have the messengers speak is the one we wound up with.
On one hand we know that the Book of Mormon as we have it is an abridgement made by Mormon.. We also know that Joseph translated the Book with the interpreters, and also the records of the Jaredites were interpreted by Mosiah with the interpreters, but what I still find interesting is that even though these things were done, there are still different styles of the writes to be found. To me it truely is a marvelous work and a wonder. It absolutely has to be the cornerstone of our religion.

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Simon
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Re: Search the Scriptures

Post by Simon »

Silas wrote:I think this problem is in part a result of the misunderstanding we have about the role of a modern prophet. A modern prophet doesn't change what has happened before he gives us what we need today. ie Noah couldn't lead the people of israel out of egypt with words he wrote down many years prior. Similarly Joseph Smith was pretty silent on protecting our families from the dangers of internet pornography. It seems there is a trend on this site to discount the need for leadership and while I whole heartedly agree that we need to each be recieving personal revelation for ourselves I don't think this discounts the need for leadership from modern prophet.
If we look at the Book of Mormon we see that we have prophets within a timeframe of around 2000 years. I asume that Moroni lived in a much more modern and dfferent time than Jared. Nevertheless, the basic and important truths neccesary for salvation were the same. Within the whole BOM we find this "oneness".. I think these are the revelations we are talking about. Of course, today we need different, additional revelations for certain circumstances, but these should never contradict truth as we find it within the scriptures. If we were to add modern revelations to the BOM, they needed to testify of eachother.

jo1952
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Re: Search the Scriptures

Post by jo1952 »

Simon wrote:
jo1952 wrote:
Simon wrote:If we think about it, he scriptures of old are the "talks" of all the ancient prophets given in past "general conferences"... What I find so outstanding about the Book of Mormon is how Nephi, Alma, and all the prophets til Moroni all seem to agree with eachother. They quote eachother, talk of eachother and even though a 1000 years lie in between them, they seem to be of one "opinion" about doctrine. There is an oneness within the scriptures, and a clear interpretation of it. What the prophets teach today has to fit that same pattern, it has to interfer the same way as it has interfered between all these ancient prophets in the Book of Mormon. If a prophet today would teach doctrine contrary to the Book of Mormon, I would rather trust the many tprophets that were in harmony with eachother over a long period of time, than to trust one single person who suddenly starts to teach contrary to such overwheming testimonys.
Good observation, Simon. What we see with our latter-day prophets is not the same being of one opinion about doctrine as taking place in canonized "talks". I wonder if the talks recorded in the Bible or the BoM were vetted and changed in order to make sure that the corrected version of what the Holy Spirit meant to have the messengers speak is the one we wound up with.
On one hand we know that the Book of Mormon as we have it is an abridgement made by Mormon.. We also know that Joseph translated the Book with the interpreters, and also the records of the Jaredites were interpreted by Mosiah with the interpreters, but what I still find interesting is that even though these things were done, there are still different styles of the writes to be found. To me it truely is a marvelous work and a wonder. It absolutely has to be the cornerstone of our religion.
Amen!!!

deep water
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Re: Search the Scriptures

Post by deep water »

Simon wrote; "To me it truely is a marvelous work and a wonder. It absolutely has to be the cornerstone of our religion." I would change this statement to read as: To me it truely is a marvelous work and a wonder. It absolutely has to be the cornerstone of MY religion. The Gospel and church of Christ, is made up of a group of MEs. It is made up of those who have overcome, each one having walked the path under their own might, mind, and straight. With the personal guidance of the HG and their Savior. We must not seperate ourselves as to earthly things. However we must separate ourselves as to spiritual things. Each walking the path with all our might, mind, and strength.

solonan
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Re: Search the Scriptures

Post by solonan »

Definition of search
searched; searching; searches
transitive verb
1 : to look into or over carefully or thoroughly in an effort to find or discover something: such as
a : to examine in seeking something searched the north field
b : to look through or explore by inspecting possible places of concealment or investigating suspicious circumstances
c : to read thoroughly : check; especially : to examine a public record or register for information about search land titles
d : to examine for articles concealed on the person
e : to look at as if to discover or penetrate intention or nature
2 : to uncover, find, or come to know by inquiry or scrutiny —usually used with out
intransitive verb
1 : to look or inquire carefully searched for the papers
2 : to make painstaking investigation or
examination

VERB
devote time and attention to acquiring knowledge on (an academic subject), especially by means of books.
"she studied biology and botany"
synonyms: learn · read · [more]
look at closely in order to observe or read.
"she bent her head to study the plans"
synonyms: scrutinize · [more]
archaic
make an effort to achieve (a result) or take into account (a person or their wishes).
"with no husband to study, housekeeping is mere play"

Since searching is different than study or reading... How do YOU search, since it is searching that the Saviour commands us to do of the prophets and more particularly Isaiah?

drtanner
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Re: Search the Scriptures

Post by drtanner »

Why would someone “search” if they had thought they had already found? Knowing this I think it is important to preface scriptures study with a plea to help us realize what we do not to know and for the Holy Ghost to help us formulate questions that will inspire a quest to find. Some of my life changing moments in the Scriptures have come because of the right questions.

solonan
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Re: Search the Scriptures

Post by solonan »

That works I think. I had a brother who would pray to know what to pray for. Somewhat similar. For myself I seem to light upon an idea or some thought and start searching for the understanding of it. I often feel as though Lord not only directs my search but as though he speaks to me directly.

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