The Gospel of Jesus Christ

[log]

Let me explain why the topic of conversion is so vitally important, and why a focus on conversion is not justly considered "gospel hobbyism" or "missing the mark," but is in reality the gospel itself.

D&C 33:10-13
10 ...Repent, repent, and prepare ye the way of the Lord, and make his paths straight; for the kingdom of heaven is at hand;
11 Yea, repent and be baptized, every one of you, for a remission of your sins; yea, be baptized even by water, and then cometh the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost.
12 Behold, verily, verily, I say unto you, this is my gospel; and remember that they shall have faith in me or they can in nowise be saved;
13 And upon this rock I will build my church; yea, upon this rock ye are built, and if ye continue, the gates of hell shall not prevail against you.

D&C 39:1-6
1 Hearken and listen to the voice of him who is from all eternity to all eternity, the Great I Am, even Jesus Christ—
2 The light and the life of the world; a light which shineth in darkness and the darkness comprehendeth it not;
3 The same which came in the meridian of time unto mine own, and mine own received me not;
4 But to as many as received me, gave I power to become my sons; and even so will I give unto as many as will receive me, power to become my sons.
5 And verily, verily, I say unto you, he that receiveth my gospel receiveth me; and he that receiveth not my gospel receiveth not me.
6 And this is my gospel—repentance and baptism by water, and then cometh the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost, even the Comforter, which showeth all things, and teacheth the peaceable things of the kingdom.

In the Book of Mormon, the gospel is also called the doctrine of Christ (Jacob 7:6). And it is the same throughout scripture.

2 Nephi 31:17-21
17 Wherefore, do the things which I have told you I have seen that your Lord and your Redeemer should do; for, for this cause have they been shown unto me, that ye might know the gate by which ye should enter. For the gate by which ye should enter is repentance and baptism by water; and then cometh a remission of your sins by fire and by the Holy Ghost.
18 And then are ye in this strait and narrow path which leads to eternal life; yea, ye have entered in by the gate; ye have done according to the commandments of the Father and the Son; and ye have received the Holy Ghost, which witnesses of the Father and the Son, unto the fulfilling of the promise which he hath made, that if ye entered in by the way ye should receive.
19 And now, my beloved brethren, after ye have gotten into this strait and narrow path, I would ask if all is done? Behold, I say unto you, Nay; for ye have not come thus far save it were by the word of Christ with unshaken faith in him, relying wholly upon the merits of him who is mighty to save.
20 Wherefore, ye must press forward with a steadfastness in Christ, having a perfect brightness of hope, and a love of God and of all men. Wherefore, if ye shall press forward, feasting upon the word of Christ, and endure to the end, behold, thus saith the Father: Ye shall have eternal life.
21 And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen.

The gospel is that men should 1. repent, 2. be baptized by water, 3. be baptized by fire and the Holy Ghost, which constitutes receiving the Holy Ghost (implicit in this is that one has faith in Jesus Christ [D&C 33:12, quoted at the top]). If these three things are done, then a person is on the path which leads to eternal life, in which path they must endure to the end. There is no other way spoken of in scripture.

The third element, the baptism by fire, deserves a closer examination.

3 Nephi 9:20
20 And ye shall offer for a sacrifice unto me a broken heart and a contrite spirit. And whoso cometh unto me with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, him will I baptize with fire and with the Holy Ghost, even as the Lamanites, because of their faith in me at the time of their conversion, were baptized with fire and with the Holy Ghost, and they knew it not.

The sole recorded instance of the Lamanites being baptized by fire and the Holy Ghost is in Helaman 5. To be brief, I will cite the pertinent sections, rather than the whole chapter, which is deserving of close study.

Helaman 5:40-47
40 And it came to pass that the Lamanites said unto him: What shall we do, that this cloud of darkness may be removed from overshadowing us?
41 And Aminadab said unto them: You must repent, and cry unto the voice, even until ye shall have faith in Christ, who was taught unto you by Alma, and Amulek, and Zeezrom; and when ye shall do this, the cloud of darkness shall be removed from overshadowing you.
42 And it came to pass that they all did begin to cry unto the voice of him who had shaken the earth; yea, they did cry even until the cloud of darkness was dispersed.
43 And it came to pass that when they cast their eyes about, and saw that the cloud of darkness was dispersed from overshadowing them, behold, they saw that they were encircled about, yea every soul, by a pillar of fire.
44 And Nephi and Lehi were in the midst of them; yea, they were encircled about; yea, they were as if in the midst of a flaming fire, yet it did harm them not, neither did it take hold upon the walls of the prison; and they were filled with that joy which is unspeakable and full of glory.
45 And behold, the Holy Spirit of God did come down from heaven, and did enter into their hearts, and they were filled as if with fire, and they could speak forth marvelous words.
46 And it came to pass that there came a voice unto them, yea, a pleasant voice, as if it were a whisper, saying:
47 Peace, peace be unto you, because of your faith in my Well Beloved, who was from the foundation of the world.

That this is the group the Savior was referring to is affirmed by Moroni.

Ether 12:14
14 Behold, it was the faith of Nephi and Lehi that wrought the change upon the Lamanites, that they were baptized with fire and with the Holy Ghost.

As used in this verse, "the change" is shorthand for "the mighty change of heart". The baptism by fire is wherein we are, as the scriptures use the phrase, "born again", or "born of the Spirit".

Moses 6:64-68
64 And it came to pass, when the Lord had spoken with Adam, our father, that Adam cried unto the Lord, and he was caught away by the Spirit of the Lord, and was carried down into the water, and was laid under the water, and was brought forth out of the water.
65 And thus he was baptized, and the Spirit of God descended upon him, and thus he was born of the Spirit, and became quickened in the inner man.
66 And he heard a voice out of heaven, saying: Thou art baptized with fire, and with the Holy Ghost. This is the record of the Father, and the Son, from henceforth and forever;
67 And thou art after the order of him who was without beginning of days or end of years, from all eternity to all eternity.
68 Behold, thou art one in me, a son of God; and thus may all become my sons. Amen.

It is important to note that Adam's actions and experience are here setting the universal pattern - "thus may all become my sons." That is, in this manner anyone has power to become a son of God. From the Lamanites, whom the Savior used as an example of what we should expect, we learn that the baptism by fire and the Holy Ghost comes about by repentance of all one's sins and calling upon the name of the Lord until one has faith in Christ, at which point one receives the baptism by fire and the Holy Ghost, which Nephi informed us is what it means to receive the Holy Ghost (2 Nephi 31:18, cited above); Adam, having beforehand repented, likewise cried unto the Lord to receive this.

The signs of this baptism, administered by the Savior himself, following the descriptions of the experiences of Adam and the Lamanites, are minimally as follows.

1. They are born again, or quickened (made alive) in the inner man.
2. They are filled as if by fire by the Holy Ghost.
3. They are filled by a specific joy which is indescribable and full of glory.
4. They are able to speak forth marvellous words - or, in other words, to prophesy, and reveal the things of heaven.
5. They hear the voice of God from on high testifying to them.

All of these things happen quickly; it is a point experience, just as baptism by water is a point experience, just as physical birth is a point experience. This experience is perceptible, pentecostal, eternally life-changing, and bestowed once the preconditions - repentance from all sin (in one's heart, turning away from sin and turning towards God) and exercising faith, by calling upon the name of the Lord until one is received - are met, as affirmed throughout the scripture. Moreover, undergoing this experience is conversion, according to the Savior in 3 Nephi 9:20 (see also 3 Nephi 7:21). That is the scriptural meaning of the word. Since the Savior promises to baptize us by fire and the Holy Ghost, just like the Lamanites, if we come unto him with broken hearts and contrite spirits, everyone may therefore expect if they will repent and cry unto Him until they have faith in Christ that they, too, will immediately receive the same experience.

Even Jesus Himself followed this pattern.

Luke 3:21-22
21 Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened,
22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

This gift - being converted, being converted unto the Lord, being born again, born of the Spirit, becoming new creatures, taking upon us the name of Christ, receiving the Holy Ghost, receiving the Comforter, being baptized by fire and the Holy Ghost, receiving the mighty change of heart, receiving the image of Christ in one's countenance, becoming a saint through the Atonement of Christ, being sanctified, being made holy and without spot (for all of these are the same thing) - is given if one will lay aside all sin, every worldly lust, all worldly ambition, and call upon God in the name of the Son, asking, with perfect sincerity and faith in Christ, for the remission of one's sins, believing one will receive; as soon as we do this, it is given (see Alma 22:15-18, and Alma 34:31). That is the model of repentance and conversion the Book of Mormon, the Pearl of Great Price, and the Doctrine and Covenants; this is how we make the gospel of Christ effective in our lives.

This is a minimal sample of the teachings and examples found throughout the scriptures on this particular topic. This may well sum it up.

2 Nephi 25:29
29 And now behold, I say unto you that the right way is to believe in Christ, and deny him not; and Christ is the Holy One of Israel; wherefore ye must bow down before him, and worship him with all your might, mind, and strength, and your whole soul; and if ye do this ye shall in nowise be cast out.

That is, of course, an instruction to be obeyed literally.

The reason conversion matters is because the baptism by fire and the Holy Ghost, wherein we are converted, as the word is used scripturally, is guaranteed if we will do the things Christ has taught: repentance (casting aside all sin, turning one's heart fully to God, and calling upon the name of the Lord until one receives a remission of their sins) and baptism, having perfect faith in Him. It is necessary to receive this in order to attain exaltation (D&C 76:52). If we have not received this, it is because we have not repented (turned) from all our sins and called upon the name of the Lord in faith for redemption from them.

Doctrine and Covenants 82:10
10 I, the Lord, am bound when ye do what I say; but when ye do not what I say, ye have no promise.

The reason focusing upon this teaching cannot be properly considered "gospel hobbyism" or "missing the mark" is because of the commandments of the Lord.

Doctrine and Covenants 19:31
31 And of tenets thou shalt not talk, but thou shalt declare repentance and faith on the Savior, and remission of sins by baptism, and by fire, yea, even the Holy Ghost.

When speaking to members of record in the Church, one may assume they have been baptized by water; therefore, if a person has not been baptized by fire and the Holy Ghost, and consequentially is not converted, the sole precepts which are to be taught are repentance and faith, which in the Book of Mormon translates to repenting of all sin and calling upon the name of the Lord until one has faith and is received, being given the signs spoken of. That is the plan of redemption. That is the milk of the gospel.

Which is why the Nephites proceeded thusly.

Mosiah 25:22
22 And thus, notwithstanding there being many churches they were all one church, yea, even the church of God; for there was nothing preached in all the churches except it were repentance and faith in God.

What comes after conversion, the mighty change of heart, the baptism by fire and the Holy Ghost wherein we are sanctified, made holy, and without spot, able to prophesy, and hear the word of God from on high? That is where the Lord teaches line upon line, and precept upon precept, by the power of the Spirit which has been received (2 Nephi 32). Much of it is the Law of the Gospel, contained in 3 Nephi 12-15. Notice that 3 Nephi 12 begins with the baptism by fire and the Holy Ghost, and proceeds line upon line and precept upon precept until it ends with this: "Be ye therefore perfect." It is through the baptism by fire and the Holy Ghost, given upon repentance, faith, and baptism, that our nature is changed completely such that we have no more desire to do evil, but to do good continually, that we have power to keep that law, and obey those precepts, from our hearts.

By laying aside all sin, and turning wholly to God, bowing down before God and calling upon Him with our whole soul, asking to receive the remission of our sins, we are awakened by the power of God into a world filled with the visions and blessings of old returning, and angels visiting the earth (The Spirit of God, Hymn #2); this is what it means to receive the gospel (D&C 39:5-6, cited above), and, so long as we are diligent unto prayer and good works, we retain this gift, being led by the Spirit in all things.

Whatever offense I give you is unintentional; some things matter very greatly, because what a man does is predicated upon what he believes. The gospel of Christ is one of those things, as it invites us to specific, immediate action with a promise of immediate and defined results; and if we don't take that specific, immediate action we have no promise.

[TZONE]

refreshing, great post

[lemuel]

awesome. Will you come to my ward and give this talk in sacrament meeting?

[Jake]

Log, brilliant post. I'm planning a lesson on ordinances in a few weeks, focusing on baptism. I hope you don't mind, this will be a great reference.

[log]

The scriptures concerning baptism are interesting as well. I would choose this as the starting point.

21 And it came to pass that the thirty and first year did pass away, and there were but few who were converted unto the Lord; but as many as were converted did truly signify unto the people that they had been visited by the power and Spirit of God, which was in Jesus Christ, in whom they believed.

22 And as many as had devils cast out from them, and were healed of their sicknesses and their infirmities, did truly manifest unto the people that they had been wrought upon by the Spirit of God, and had been healed; and they did show forth signs also and did do some miracles among the people.

23 Thus passed away the thirty and second year also. And Nephi did cry unto the people in the commencement of the thirty and third year; and he did preach unto them repentance and remission of sins.

24 Now I would have you to remember also, that there were none who were brought unto repentance who were not baptized with water.

25 Therefore, there were ordained of Nephi, men unto this ministry, that all such as should come unto them should be baptized with water, and this as a witness and a testimony before God, and unto the people, that they had repented and received a remission of their sins.

26 And there were many in the commencement of this year that were baptized unto repentance; and thus the more part of the year did pass away.

Baptism is a witness and a testimony that the person has already repented and has already received a remission of their sins.

This is the law of the Church today, as well.

D&C 20:37 And again, by way of commandment to the church concerning the manner of baptism—All those who humble themselves before God, and desire to be baptized, and come forth with broken hearts and contrite spirits, and witness before the church that they have truly repented of all their sins, and are willing to take upon them the name of Jesus Christ, having a determination to serve him to the end, and truly manifest by their works that they have received of the Spirit of Christ unto the remission of their sins, shall be received by baptism into his church.

The remission of sins spoken of comes by way of 1. repenting of all one's sins, and submitting one's heart and will fully to God, and 2. calling upon the name of the Lord in mighty prayer to receive forgiveness and the Holy Spirit (Alma 22:15-18). If one does this, then by the power of the Spirit, one enters into a covenant with God to serve Him and keep His commandments, and one receives a remission of one's sins.

Hence, "having a determination to serve Him to the end."

Receiving the Spirit unto the remission of one's sins, by way of repentance and entering into a covenant with God to serve Him and keep His commandments, is what it means to take upon oneself the name of Christ. (Alma 34:38, Moroni 6:3)

And, among the Nephites, it was after baptism by water and by fire that they were accounted members of the church of God. (Moroni 6:4)

The Lord changes not - they are they who are the members of His church, even today (D&C 10:67-68). They are the saints of God.

[laronius]

Nicely done log, its always good to get back to what some would refer to as the basics but which are in reality THE Gospel of Jesus Christ. I might also add that this process is intended to be cyclical in nature, happening hopefully on a weekly basis. Good post.

[log]

While I admit it possibly can be cyclical in nature, and can point you to Alma 5 and D&C 20:32, 34 to support the idea that those who receive the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost may depart from the living God, I cannot find warrant in the scriptures that receiving and losing the Holy Ghost is intended to be cyclical in nature, and I would be extremely leery of claiming it is intended to be a weekly cycle.

Joseph Smith, for example, taught, "Daily transgression and daily repentance is not that which is pleasing in the sight of God." Is weekly transgression and weekly repentance an improvement?

Indeed, of them who receive the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost, the following things have been written.

2 Nephi 31:14
14 But, behold, my beloved brethren, thus came the voice of the Son unto me, saying: After ye have repented of your sins, and witnessed unto the Father that ye are willing to keep my commandments, by the baptism of water, and have received the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost, and can speak with a new tongue, yea, even with the tongue of angels, and after this should deny me, it would have been better for you that ye had not known me.

Those who don't know Christ, having not been baptized by fire and the Holy Ghost, get the telestial kingdom, we learn from D&C 76. Therefore, these of whom Christ speaks, who repent of their sins, and are baptized by water and by fire, and then deny Him, are cast into eternal hell. (D&C 76:43-44)

Alma 39:6
6 For behold, if ye deny the Holy Ghost when it once has had place in you, and ye know that ye deny it, behold, this is a sin which is unpardonable....

And more.

JST, Hebrews 6:3–10.
Compare Hebrews 6:3–10
3 And we will go on unto perfection if God permit.

4 For he hath made it impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to be renewed again unto repentance; seeing they crucify unto themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

7 For the day cometh that the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them who dwelleth thereon, by whom it is dressed, who now receiveth blessings from God, shall be cleansed with fire.

8 For that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; therefore they who bring not forth good fruits, shall be cast into the fire; for their end is to be burned.

Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;

21 And having an high priest over the house of God;

22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)

24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:

25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28 He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

I would be very, very cautious about indulging in the view (to say nothing of teaching it) that a person can receive the Holy Ghost, sin with impunity, and repent at leisure, even as a weekly cycle.

[stillwater]

I might also add that this process is intended to be cyclical in nature, happening hopefully on a weekly basis.

Though this is frequently taught, I'm not sure it is true. At least it doesn't seem to be taught anywhere in the scriptures. Repentance is a state of being in contrition, rather than a "5-R's" type process you go through for specific acts. Receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost and having your sins remitted also occur once. That remission is either retained by remaining perpetually penitent and remembering Christ, or it is not retained. Retaining is clearly the preferred option to King Benjamin, as he pleads at length for his people to do do just that in Mosiah 4:

11 And again I say unto you as I have said before, that as ye have come to the knowledge of the glory of God, or if ye have known of his goodness and have tasted of his love, and have received a remission of your sins, which causeth such exceedingly great joy in your souls, even so I would that ye should remember, and always retain in remembrance, the greatness of God, and your own nothingness, and his goodness and long-suffering towards you, unworthy creatures, and humble yourselves even in the depths of humility, calling on the name of the Lord daily, and standing steadfastly in the faith of that which is to come, which was spoken by the mouth of the angel.

12 And behold, I say unto you that if ye do this ye shall always rejoice, and be filled with the love of God, and always retain a remission of your sins; and ye shall grow in the knowledge of the glory of him that created you, or in the knowledge of that which is just and true.

There is a subtle but very important difference between thinking of repentance/forgiveness as a weekly process, and thinking of repentance as a state of being and forgiveness as an event called justification.

Most of what we teach about the sacrament in this process is rooted in "weekly process" thinking, rather than in "retaining a remission of your sins" thinking (sacrament as a renewal of baptismal covenants, sacrament making you "clean again" just like baptism, etc etc).

[laronius]

I think you guys are missinterpreting what I was getting at. I was making no reference to the idea of sinning and losing the Holy Ghost and then having to be born again all over again, rather the natural process of overcoming our weaknesses which takes time. This is accomplished by repenting of our sins daily and renewing our baptismal covenants each Sunday which brings a promise of increased influence of the Spirit in our lives. This continues throughout our lives as we progress to perfection. The idea of course is that the degree and frequency of our sins decreases over time. But even still, the best of us will still need to follow this pattern each week of repentance, baptism, and renewal through the Holy Ghost throughout our lives.

[laronius]

Though this is frequently taught, I'm not sure it is true. At least it doesn't seem to be taught anywhere in the scriptures. Repentance is a state of being in contrition, rather than a "5-R's" type process you go through for specific acts. Receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost and having your sins remitted also occur once. That remission is either retained by remaining perpetually penitent and remembering Christ, or it is not retained. Retaining is clearly the preferred option to King Benjamin, as he pleads at length for his people to do do just that in Mosiah 4:

Most of what we teach about the sacrament in this process is rooted in "weekly process" thinking, rather than in "retaining a remission of your sins" thinking (sacrament as a renewal of baptismal covenants, sacrament making you "clean again" just like baptism, etc etc).

Agreed. In fact we are commanded to only partake of the sacrament worthily. This would indicate the need to have already gained forgiveness of our sins prior to coming to Sacrament meeting. I was commenting on the symoblism of the process.

[log]

Those who receive the Holy Ghost, and are sanctified, do not sin daily; indeed, they cannot sin, save they first depart from God in their hearts, else, they commit the unpardonable sin, as described in my previous post.

1 John 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever continueth in sin hath not seen him, neither known him.

7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

8 He that continueth in sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

9 Whosoever is born of God doth not continue in sin; for the Spirit of God remaineth in him; and he cannot continue in sin, because he is born of God, having received that holy Spirit of promise.

10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.

12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother’s righteous.

13 Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.

14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

16 Hereby perceive we the love of Christ, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.

17 But whoso hath this world’s good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?

18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue only; but in deed and in truth.

19 And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.

20 For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.

21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.

22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

And, the reason why those who are possessed of the Holy Ghost receive whatsoever they ask is because they are sanctified, and purified from all sin.

D&C 50:29 And if ye are purified and cleansed from all sin, ye shall ask whatsoever you will in the name of Jesus and it shall be done.

[log]

Also, I wish to point out that they who are baptized by fire and the Holy Ghost receive the Holy Ghost even as Jesus did.

2 Nephi 31:12
12 And also, the voice of the Son came unto me, saying: He that is baptized in my name, to him will the Father give the Holy Ghost, like unto me; wherefore, follow me, and do the things which ye have seen me do.

"Like unto me" means "just like me."

JST John 3:34
34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth him not the Spirit by measure, for he dwelleth in him, even the fullness.

It is interesting to me, therefore, to hear that we may sin when we are filled with the Holy Ghost, just like Jesus Christ, in whom the fullness dwelt.

[log]

The ideal, and, indeed, the commandment, is this.

"Be ye therefore perfect, even as I, or your Father in heaven, is perfect." (3 Nephi 12:48) And, it is to be noted that the precondition to keeping that commandment is to first be baptized by fire and the Holy Ghost. (3 Nephi 12:1-2)

Indeed, one who possesses the Holy Ghost is perfect.

Colossians 3:14
14 And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.

Doctrine and Covenants 88:125
125 And above all things, clothe yourselves with the bond of charity, as with a mantle, which is the bond of perfectness and peace.

Because it is in receiving the Holy Ghost that we obtain charity.

Moroni 8:26
26 And the remission of sins bringeth meekness, and lowliness of heart; and because of meekness and lowliness of heart cometh the visitation of the Holy Ghost, which Comforter filleth with hope and perfect love, which love endureth by diligence unto prayer, until the end shall come, when all the saints shall dwell with God.

This is not all.

1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.

12 No man hath seen God at any time. ]u]If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us[/u].

13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.

14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

19 We love him, because he first loved us.

20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

21 And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.

As He is, so are they, who have been born again, in this world, for they have the love [charity] of God in them. [The word "love" in 1 John 4 is "agape," which means charity.]

And that is the fulfillment of the purpose of the commandments.

1 Timothy 1:5
5 Now the end [purpose] of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned.

[stillwater]

log,
in your posts, it seems you are conflating two events that are separate in my understanding: 1. the baptism of fire (the receipt of the holy ghost) and 2. being washed in the blood of Christ, given the promise of eternal life, being declared a Son of God, and having your calling and election made sure.

The first event justifies you, the second comes at the end of the process of your sanctification. The first is the baptism of fire, the second the baptism of blood (where you are "made pure and spotless").

The first is being made "perfect in Christ", the second is being declared "sanctified in Christ" after you have "denied not" his power (Moroni 10).

The first allows you to speak with the tongue of angels and speak the words of Christ. Feasting on those words will lead you to hear the father say "ye shall have eternal life" (2 Nephi 31).

It is only the second event is the promise or "surety" that gives you the "hope" that makes you pure as Christ is pure, and the sealing power whereby you can ask and receive whatever you want.

The first event comes after the baptism of water, the second comes by the washing of feet by Christ or his servant (DC 88:75-75, 138-140). This second, where you receive the irrevocable promise of eternal life, is where you receive the Holy Spirit of Promise (DC 88:1-4).

For Adam, and for Christ, these two events occurred very quickly in sequence. Both were baptized by water, then immediately baptized by fire, then, being Gods already, were immediately declared the Sons of God and "priests forever after the order of Melchizedek" by God's own voice. For many, myself included, these events do not occur simultaneously. I would suggest that most people undergo a long process of sanctification, after they receive the Baptism of Fire, before they have their garments washed clean in the blood of Christ and enter into His rest and receive the Holy Spirit of Promise.

This is, at least, my current understanding.

[log]

The baptism of fire is wherein we are sanctified.

3 Nephi 27:20
20 Now this is the commandment: Repent, all ye ends of the earth, and come unto me and be baptized in my name, that ye may be sanctified by the reception of the Holy Ghost, that ye may stand spotless before me at the last day.

That is why I said those who are baptized by fire and the Holy Ghost are the saints [sanctified, or holy, ones] of God.

[stillwater]

The baptism of fire is wherein we are sanctified.

3 Nephi 27:20
20 Now this is the commandment: Repent, all ye ends of the earth, and come unto me and be baptized in my name, that ye may be sanctified by the reception of the Holy Ghost, that ye may stand spotless before me at the last day.

That is why I said those who are baptized by fire and the Holy Ghost are the saints [sanctified, or holy, ones] of God.

I agree that the receipt of the Holy Ghost is the means of sanctification. I still believe it is a process that begins with the baptism of fire, and ends at the fulness. You don't receive the fulness at first. You grow, like Christ, receiving grace for grace.

[log]

And, the Holy Spirit of Promise is the Holy Ghost in His role as the minister of heavenly fire.

JST 1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not continue in sin; for the Spirit of God remaineth in him; and he cannot continue in sin, because he is born of God, having received that holy Spirit of promise

Ephesians 1:13-14
13 In whom ye also trusted [Christ], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

[log]

I agree that the receipt of the Holy Ghost is the means of sanctification. I still believe it is a process that begins with the baptism of fire, and ends at the fulness. You don't receive the fulness at first. You grow, like Christ, receiving grace for grace.

Sanctification precedes the fullness. There is no contradiction here.

What happens is you are sanctified when you are baptized by fire and the Holy Ghost - from thence, you either abide in Christ, or you depart. Inasmuch as you abide in Christ, and are filled with light, love, and purity, hungering and thirsting after righteousness, bringing forth good works by the power of God through the Spirit which dwells in you, remaining diligent unto prayer continually, you will in due time be brought into the presence of the Son.

Ether 12:28
28 Behold, I will show unto the Gentiles their weakness, and I will show unto them that faith, hope and charity bringeth unto me—the fountain of all righteousness.

I disagree with Snuffer on this, and a few other points - and I am able to make it stick, scripturally.

[log]

And, possessing the fullness of the Spirit is not to be confused with possessing all power in heaven and in earth - the fullness of the priesthood.

[TZONE]

JST 1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not continue in sin; for the Spirit of God remaineth in him; and he cannot continue in sin, because he is born of God, having received that holy Spirit of promise

So once we get to this point can we commit sin? For we abide in Christ. Even if we mess up, unless we turneth completely away and depart that is. We are holy min who cannot commit sin, again unless we turneth from God.

[log]

So once we get to this point can we commit sin? For we abide in Christ. Even if we mess up, unless we turneth completely away and depart that is. We are holy min who cannot commit sin, again unless we turneth from God.

So long as the Holy Ghost abides in you, that you are filled with light, you cannot sin, except you commit the unpardonable sin.

3 Nephi 13: 19 Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and thieves break through and steal;

20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal.

21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

22 The light of the body is the eye; if, therefore, thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

23 But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If, therefore, the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!

24 No man can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will hold to the one and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and Mammon.

To have your eye be single means to have serving God as the sole focus of your mind; if you do this, you will have the fullness of the Spirit, and be filled with light and love, having power to do good (Moroni 10:25). Here, the eye is a metaphor for that which you focus on, that which you are looking towards. Notice where Jesus is telling us the competition is coming from? Have we heard this before?

D&C 121:34 Behold, there are many called, but few are chosen. And why are they not chosen?

35 Because their hearts are set so much upon the things of this world, and aspire to the honors of men, that they do not learn this one lesson—

36 That the rights of the priesthood are inseparably connected with the powers of heaven, and that the powers of heaven cannot be controlled nor handled only upon the principles of righteousness.

Mark 4: 18 And these are they which are sown among thorns; such as hear the word,

19 And the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful.

[log]

And, to address something else - anyone who has been baptized by fire and the Holy Ghost had ought to remember how they rejoiced in the mercy of God towards them, how they received revelations on subjects they had never even considered, how they communed with God, and - this is the important bit - how their prayers were answered as they prayed them.

It is of necessity this way, for the promise is this:

Mormon 9:21
21 Behold, I say unto you that whoso believeth in Christ, doubting nothing, whatsoever he shall ask the Father in the name of Christ it shall be granted him; and this promise is unto all, even unto the ends of the earth.

You have had a foretaste of the sealing power, just as when you were received of God in your mighty prayers, you received a foretaste of knowledge.

[superdan]

For sure there are certain milestones that we pass on our way to Christ. I think everyone's journey has difference nuances. The discussion is theoretical until you live the process. So why debate it? Enter in by the way and receive the Holy Ghost. Walk the path. I think the main point of this thread is that baptism by fire is far more significant than we make it out to be in our LDS culture. You'll know it when it starts happening to you. I also think it's a process. One of those things that evidences the mighty change is the lack of desire to sin. It's not so much that you can't sin (more appropriately make mistakes), but that you desire to do good continually, are willing to leave Babylon and embark on a journey through the wilderness to obtain the promised land. Necessarily one must pick up the Liahona to make a successful journey.

And so my brothers in Christ, I suppose that ye ponder somewhat in your hearts concerning that which ye should do after ye have entered in by the way. But, behold, why do ye ponder these things in your hearts? (2 Nephi 32)

2 Do ye not remember that I said unto you that after ye had received the Holy Ghost ye could speak with the tongue of angels? And now, how could ye speak with the tongue of angels save it were by the Holy Ghost?

3 Angels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore, they speak the words of Christ. Wherefore, I said unto you, feast upon the words of Christ; for behold, the words of Christ will tell you all things what ye should do.

4 Wherefore, now after I have spoken these words, if ye cannot understand them it will be because ye ask not, neither do ye knock; wherefore, ye are not brought into the light, but must perish in the dark.

5 For behold, again I say unto you that if ye will enter in by the way, and receive the Holy Ghost, it will show unto you all things what ye should do.

6 Behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and there will be no more doctrine given until after he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh. And when he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh, the things which he shall say unto you shall ye observe to do.

7 And now I, Nephi, cannot say more; the Spirit stoppeth mine utterance, and I am left to mourn because of the unbelief, and the wickedness, and the ignorance, and the stiffneckedness of men; for they will not search knowledge, nor understand great knowledge, when it is given unto them in plainness, even as plain as word can be.

8 And now, my beloved brethren, I perceive that ye ponder still in your hearts; and it grieveth me that I must speak concerning this thing. For if ye would hearken unto the Spirit which teacheth a man to pray, ye would know that ye must pray; for the evil spirit teacheth not a man to pray, but teacheth him that he must not pray.

9 But behold, I say unto you that ye must pray always, and not faint; that ye must not perform any thing unto the Lord save in the first place ye shall pray unto the Father in the name of Christ, that he will consecrate thy performance unto thee, that thy performance may be for the welfare of thy soul.

There are people who post on this forum who have walked far down the path. I would venture that they would advise that the object of our prayers, if we are truly changed, should be to obtain faith unto salvation, or in other words walk past the angels that stand as sentinels back to the presence of God. We must commune with heaven. We must gain the testimony of Jesus and be declared Sons of God. Most of this comes from heaven. For those of us in the wilderness there really is only one key. Obtain the Holy Ghost and follow it to the promised land. ASAP.

[log]

Dan,

I hear that about the baptism by fire and the Holy Ghost being a process all the time, but I'm not aware of any scriptural support for that.

[superdan]

Log:

I hope everyone knows I'm just posting my opinion here. And I liked your comments. This is important stuff. The scriptures need to be understood by the influence of the Holy Ghost. In my reading of the path back to God as I see it in the scriptures I find a few absolutes and a lot of nuances. I would love to have the same experience as Adam and Jesus where they got it in quick succession. I think it was because they were ready. I think some things can occur out of order and then are officially ratified. (i.e. The Lamanites in prison baptized by fire before water.)

So maybe this will help to see my perspective. The concept is "baptism of fire AND of the Holy Ghost." I think you need to obtain (not just be told to receive) the actual gift of the Holy Ghost as the first step in this process of baptism of fire and HG. Read this verse with that perspective.

13 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, I know that if ye shall follow the Son, with full purpose of heart, acting no hypocrisy and no deception before God, but with real intent, repenting of your sins, witnessing unto the Father that ye are willing to take upon you the name of Christ, by baptism—yea, by following your Lord and your Savior down into the water, according to his word, behold, then shall ye receive the Holy Ghost; yea, then cometh the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost; and then can ye speak with the tongue of angels, and shout praises unto the Holy One of Israel.

After water, THEN ye shall receive the HG. ... and THEN cometh the baptism of fire and of the HG ... (Many people I know report feeling the mighty change, noticing the HG, working with that for a while, and then having one or multiple culminating experiences that confirm they have been baptized in fire.) ... And then being able to speak with the tongue of angels might be a predecessor to receiving angels, necessarily needing to be on the same page as angels? Same language... But again I don't think it always goes in order. And then comes sanctification and being called a Son of God or obtaining THE testimony of Jesus.

60 For by the water ye keep the commandment; by the Spirit ye are justified, and by the blood ye are sanctified;

And perhaps discerning and comparing our walk on the path is complicated by our ancestry?

The Holy Ghost has no other effect than pure intelligence. It is more powerful in expanding the mind, enlightening the understanding, and storing the intellect with present knowledge, of a man who is of the literal seed of Abraham, than one that is a Gentile, though it may not have half as much visible effect upon the body; for as the Holy Ghost falls upon one of the literal seed of Abraham, it is calm and serene; and his whole soul and body are only exercised by the pure spirit of intelligence; while the effect of the Holy Ghost upon a Gentile, is to purge out the old blood, and make him actually of the seed of Abraham. That man that has none of the blood of Abraham (naturally) must have a new creation by the Holy Ghost. In such a case, there may be more of a powerful effect upon the body, and visible to the eye, than upon an Israelite, while the Israelite at first might be far before the Gentile in pure intelligence.