The Polluted Holy Church Mormon Chapter 8

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jwharton
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Re: The Polluted Holy Church Mormon Chapter 8

Post by jwharton »

freedomforall wrote:In attempting to justify causing discord, calling them grievances...this is a poor excuse for dismissing truth from scripture.
Are you saying there is no place for a sincere grievance to be communicated?
freedomforall wrote:I disagree whole heartedly with your so called clarification tactic and invite you to read the words and open your eyes to what Christ says on the matter.
So you whole heartedly advocate judging matters presumptuously?
What words of Christ advocate being presumptuous?
The best example I recall of those who are presumptuous are the fallen "sons of God" spoken of in Jude and 2 Peter chapter 2. It says they would speak evil of things they do not understand. It calls them spots in your feasts of charity. God wasn't at all happy with these unfortunate souls.
freedomforall wrote:Self aggrandizement is not becoming and justification for wrong doing is of the devil.
I agree with this but I'm at a loss to see how this is relevant to our exchange here.
freedomforall wrote:This is nothing but contention and causing disputations, clearly a infraction of scriptural counsel.
The communicating of a grievance that is sincere and that seeks to bring about repentance does not qualify in the Lord's eyes as causing contention or disputation. The contention and disputation enters in when someone reacts to it in a prideful manner and is angered by it. For example, was Samuel the Lamanite evil for stirring up contention among the Nephites. He deserved to have their arrows shot at him?
freedomforall wrote:Speaking of grievances, this is mine.
Eloquent speech does not justify wrong doing. God says he hates discord. Does he lie?
God also encourages all who have petitions for the redress of grievances to communicate them.
God also says if you have been warned, it is your duty to warn your neighbor as well.
God says if you don't warn your neighbor of their iniquities then your garments will be spotted with their blood.
God gives teachers in the Aaronic priesthood duties that require them to intervene and communicate if there is iniquity in the church, or other evils.
Whenever someone is acting with pure intentions and honesty and sincerity and their aim is to preach repentance, etc. then the Lord smiles upon this. What the Lord does not smile upon is when in the face of these people acting fully within their rights and duties they are responded to with stiff-necks, gainsaying and hard hearts. It is the wicked who inject the contention instead of listening, getting clarity and first looking to see if there actually is a mote in their eye someone is trying to help them with. Why turn down someone's time and attention to help you on your path?
freedomforall wrote:You've already called Pres Packer a fear monger.
It was Elder McKonkie who was quoted as saying those who believe Brigham Young's teaching about Adam would burn in hell, or something of that sort, was fear-mongering.
freedomforall wrote:What justification do you have for this evil?
I simply called it what it was because it was not backed up by any other light and truth.
freedomforall wrote:Or is this another one of your so-called grievances?
If someone is going to make a very bold claim as was done, they really owe it to the reader to substantiate their claim.
I do not take kindly to the "it is this way because I say so" mentality.
This attitude most definitely grieves me, and all the more so when it comes from our leaders.

freedomforall
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Re: The Polluted Holy Church Mormon Chapter 8

Post by freedomforall »

retracted due to my being imperfect.
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jwharton
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Re: The Polluted Holy Church Mormon Chapter 8

Post by jwharton »

freedomforall wrote:
jwharton wrote:If I were investigating the church and I could smell the stench of "all is well here" and "everyone else is the dirt-bags and we are the perfect ones, etc. then I would walk away, unless I was on an ego trip myself and wanted to have my turn at the ramiumptum too. We don't need to attract that kind of riffraff into the Lord's Kingdom. Some of the riffraff have made some of the best bishops in the church through repentance and being born again. Are you their judge? Strike one.

Rather, if someone saw members sincerely examining their texts where it appears they could be the ones being chastened and then to really ask that searching question, "Lord is it I?" then this would inspire them and help them feel like they were among true humble seekers of truth willing to admit to faults and to make amends. Did you know the fox smells his own hole first? Strike two.

Non-members are not stupid. They're not gullible generally either. They can smell the stench of pride just as easily as anyone can. There is nobody I know outside the church who is impressed with the kind of blind faith that seems to be expected of the members by the members. Blind faith is better than no faith! Can you define blind faith? It stinks to high heaven. Your view, correct? Our pride is killing our missionary efforts. So is blabbing grievances causing discord among brethren. People want to be with people who are real. I'd rather be among people that are righteous, and not having a fiery tongue. People are willing to be patient and forgiving when they are dealing with people who are humble and don't have to prove anything but who just do their best to love. Is casting harsh judgements directed at those holding higher mantels done with the best love? Seeing someone in a repentant frame of mind is something that draws upon heart strings, not cause embarrassment and shame.

If we actually took up a humble and repentant posture and really took seriously Celestial Law, and implemented the programs the Lord designed to be a benefit to and salvation for the people, we would have massive amounts of convert baptisms because there would actually be something very unique and powerful and effective to change people's lives not just spiritually but temporally also. This can easily be facilitated by keeping evil thoughts inside.

So, you can get on your high horse Someone had to do it because when you speak evil toward any of the Lord's imperfect anointed, this becomes my grievance. and scream down those crying with their grievances, but what you need to remember is those who are crying for such are very likely the Lord's little ones who are pure in heart and who know when wrongs are being done and who are courageous enough and have enough integrity to say something about it. That's exactly why I call to attention my grievances. The longer the current trends continue, the more difficult it will become for such to cry out without fearing that they will be excommunicated for sharing their grievances. Grievances or just plain harsh judgement?

I assure you, missionary work would not be harmed in the slightest if we transformed ourselves from a proud "we can do no wrong and our leaders will never lead us astray" to a humble "the warnings from the Lord are serious, He really wants His commandments kept and for us to honor our covenants and praise Him when we make mistakes we can repent of them and make amends, and all who have grievances are fully and respectfully considered and they are addressed". Discord in the guise of grievances is not justifiable, or respectful. Let God take care of any evil.

Are we sent out to gather the haughty and proud who are attracted to the ramiumptom or are we sent out to gather the meek and humble of the earth who love the Gospel of Jesus Christ? If we love the gospel of Jesus Christ, we will not cast rocks at anyone in the church or out. Perhaps we should consider all the grievances the Lord has with his children who cause discord.
You seem especially desperate to invalidate me. Why?

freedomforall
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Re: The Polluted Holy Church Mormon Chapter 8

Post by freedomforall »

same
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brrgilbert
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Re: The Polluted Holy Church Mormon Chapter 8

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Blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the earth.
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freedomforall
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Re: The Polluted Holy Church Mormon Chapter 8

Post by freedomforall »

same
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jwharton
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Re: The Polluted Holy Church Mormon Chapter 8

Post by jwharton »

brrgilbert wrote:Freedom for All and jw hart on, I am going to respectfully request - only once - that you quit bantering back and forth. It is very unbecoming of "supposed" disciples of Christ. If you shall agree to this - and you choose - I will remove this posting. If it is not your choice to do so, then, you will experience a disaffection of my respect and engagement. I will, if further "engagement" is observed between you two, disregard any further postings that either of you may make and consider you as salt that has lost its savor. Your exchanges are proving unsavory.
I agree to this.
Thank you.

brrgilbert
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Re: The Polluted Holy Church Mormon Chapter 8

Post by brrgilbert »

Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.
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freedomforall
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Re: The Polluted Holy Church Mormon Chapter 8

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We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression.
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brrgilbert
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Re: The Polluted Holy Church Mormon Chapter 8

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For what doth it profit a man if he shall gain the whole world and yet, loose his own soul? You decide.
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freedomforall
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Re: The Polluted Holy Church Mormon Chapter 8

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?
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freedomforall
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Re: The Polluted Holy Church Mormon Chapter 8

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brrgilbert wrote:For what doth it profit a man if he shall gain the whole world and yet, loose his own soul? You decide.
If you are referring to me I have decided. He who is without sin, cast ye the first stone.

freedomforall
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Re: The Polluted Holy Church Mormon Chapter 8

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brrgilbert wrote:Blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the earth.
Trust in the Lord with all thine heart
and lean not unto thine own understanding
In all thy ways acknowledge him'
and he shall direct thy paths.

brrgilbert
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Re: The Polluted Holy Church Mormon Chapter 8

Post by brrgilbert »

.
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brrgilbert
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Re: The Polluted Holy Church Mormon Chapter 8

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.
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freedomforall
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Re: The Polluted Holy Church Mormon Chapter 8

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brrgilbert wrote:FreedomforAll - I am not without sin, but I would never cast a stone with the intent to do harm at anyone that I love. You do well to read between the lines, but in all reality, that "quote or reference" was made as a reminder to myself. I fear loosing my own soul, though I would like to gain the whole world for Christ. I hope that you will forgive me for "butting my knows in."
You are forgiven. Trust me, my imperfections taunt me on a regular basis. My sincere hope is that Moroni 10:32,33 can be applied to me every day in spite of them. Yes, I do become sarcastic at times. It is due, in part, because evil is growing exponentially every day, and I came on this board in hopes for some brotherly and sisterly gospel discussion with love, compassion and understanding by and through other saints. But in many cases, I find the same thing here as I do outside my home. And I'm up to my eyeballs with it. Sorry if I come across as somewhat dross. I attempt to stand as a witness for Christ in all things, at all times and in all places, yet I fail many times, but my heart seeks it deeply.
A thread about the polluted church is disgusting and appalling. Imperfection is within every living soul, so what's the big deal? Do we have to have it rubbed into our faces on a pro-lds site?

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Jim Kelley
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Re: The Polluted Holy Church Mormon Chapter 8

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jwharton wrote:If I were investigating the church and I could smell the stench of "all is well here" and "everyone else is the dirt-bags and we are the perfect ones, etc. then I would walk away, unless I was on an ego trip myself and wanted to have my turn at the ramiumptum too. We don't need to attract that kind of riffraff into the Lord's Kingdom.

Rather, if someone saw members sincerely examining their texts where it appears they could be the ones being chastened and then to really ask that searching question, "Lord is it I?" then this would inspire them and help them feel like they were among true humble seekers of truth willing to admit to faults and to make amends.

Non-members are not stupid. They can smell the stench of pride just as easily as anyone can. There is nobody I know outside the church who is impressed with the kind of blind faith that seems to be expected of the members by the members. It stinks to high heaven. Our pride is killing our missionary efforts. People want to be with people who are real. People are willing to be patient and forgiving when they are dealing with people who are humble and don't have to prove anything but who just do their best to love. Seeing someone in a repentant frame of mind is something that draws upon heart strings, not cause embarrassment and shame.

If we actually took up a humble and repentant posture and really took seriously Celestial Law, and implemented the programs the Lord designed to be a benefit to and salvation for the people, we would have massive amounts of convert baptisms because there would actually be something very unique and powerful and effective to change people's lives not just spiritually but temporally also.

So, you can get on your high horse and try and scream down those crying with their grievances, but what you need to remember is those who are crying for such are very likely the Lord's little ones who are pure in heart and who know when wrongs are being done and who are courageous enough and have enough integrity to say something about it. The longer the current trends continue, the more difficult it will become for such to cry out without fearing that they will be excommunicated for sharing their grievances.

I assure you, missionary work would not be harmed in the slightest if we transformed ourselves from a proud "we can do no wrong and our leaders will never lead us astray" to a humble "the warnings from the Lord are serious, He really wants His commandments kept and for us to honor our covenants and praise Him when we make mistakes we can repent of them and make amends, and all who have grievances are fully and respectfully considered and they are addressed".

Are we sent out to gather the haughty and proud who are attracted to the ramiumptom or are we sent out to gather the meek and humble of the earth who love the Gospel of Jesus Christ?
Where is that like button? A-men Brother!

I agree that missionary work could increase and we could have convert baptisms without end (in my opinion) if The Church leadership could only set aside the "pollutions" for The Holy Ghost. It seems to me The Church leaders want to be like Laman and Lemuel and steer the ship with their own understanding instead of using the compass the Lord provided (1 Nephi 18:12-15).

And yes I do lay the main faults for the "pollutions" at the feet of the G.A.s.

Bro. Jim

jwharton
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Re: The Polluted Holy Church Mormon Chapter 8

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Jim Kelley wrote:I agree that missionary work could increase and we could have convert baptisms without end (in my opinion) if The Church leadership could only set aside the "pollutions" for The Holy Ghost. It seems to me The Church leaders want to be like Laman and Lemuel and steer the ship with their own understanding instead of using the compass the Lord provided (1 Nephi 18:12-15).

And yes I do lay the main faults for the "pollutions" at the feet of the G.A.s.

Bro. Jim
I view them with compassion and understanding because we the people are far greater of a danger to them than they are to us.

Please read how the Lord deals with this kind of a situation in Ezekiel chapter 14.

1 Then came certain of the elders of Israel unto me, and sat before me.
2 And the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,
3 Son of man, these men have set up their idols in their heart, and put the stumblingblock of their iniquity before their face: should I be enquired of at all by them?
4 Therefore speak unto them, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Every man of the house of Israel that setteth up his idols in his heart, and putteth the stumblingblock of his iniquity before his face, and cometh to the prophet; I the Lord will answer him that cometh according to the multitude of his idols;
5 That I may take the house of Israel in their own heart, because they are all estranged from me through their idols.
6 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord God; Repent, and turn yourselves from your idols; and turn away your faces from all your abominations.
7 For every one of the house of Israel, or of the stranger that sojourneth in Israel, which separateth himself from me, and setteth up his idols in his heart, and putteth the stumblingblock of his iniquity before his face, and cometh to a prophet to enquire of him concerning me; I the Lord will answer him by myself:
8 And I will set my face against that man, and will make him a sign and a proverb, and I will cut him off from the midst of my people; and ye shall know that I am the Lord.
9 And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel.
10 And they shall bear the punishment of their iniquity: the punishment of the prophet shall be even as the punishment of him that seeketh unto him;

When the people are wicked and have become estranged from the Lord through their idolatry (worship of leaders) then this angers the Lord and He will deliberately bring deception to the leaders the people are idolizing in the place of the Lord. The people and the leaders they have idolized will all partake of the punishment of the Lord giving them over to their aberrant desires while thinking to themselves that they are righteous. But, the Lord is admitting to being the one who allows the leaders to become deceived and to go astray right along with the people who corrupted them.

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Jim Kelley
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Re: The Polluted Holy Church Mormon Chapter 8

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jwharton, I have to respectfully disagree with your statement speaking of Church leaders, "... we the people are far greater of a danger to them than they are to us," for the following reasons:

Jesus Christ in the BofM has bundled the terms "pollutions...hypocrites...teachers" into an all encompassing description of the very high up Church leadership that "polluted the holy church of God" today(Mormon 8:38). I think there are many good and righteous men who serve as lower leadership positions who are not aware of, or just look the other way, when evidence of corruptions above their leadership positions exist and present themselves. I think it is wise to give Church leaders the benefit of the doubt until they prove themselves "hypocrites." Once any Church leader proves themselves a hypocrite it is best to take the position; fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.

The Lord does address most of the rank and file Mormons as walking in the pride of their hearts (Mormon 8:36) which is a lot less of a condition of a sin than causing pollutions to every branch, ward and stake and being out and out hypocrites.

The G.A.s are the ones responsible, not the rank and file members, for things like Elder Poelman's talk being force rerecorded and those secret Church Leadership Policy Manuals, the extravagant Conference Center, the City Creek Center Mall, etc.

The Church leaders and the G.A.s have the power of kangaroo Church Courts to punish the rank and file members should they get out of line, in the G.A.'s opinions, with legitimate concerns. If a member does have a legitimate complaint about a Church leader it will most likely just be ignored so members have no power over the leadership so the members present no danger to the leadership in this respect.

I say force rerecorded for good reason. I looked for and purchased the Conference Report for the session Elder Poelman's talk was rerecorded for all time on this earth. In the 120 pages of this report not one mention this talk was rerecorded let along any phony explanation that Elder Poelman decided on his own to alter his talk.

Additional revelations preserved in this "official" Church record is Presidents Kimball and President Romney were so feeble to the point of missing some sessions of Conference and didn't really know what was going on. For all practical purposes President Hinckley was presiding and in charge of these sessions of Conference. I remember all of this from when it happened but this Conference Report refreshed my memory.

Obviously The Church did not admit the talk was rerecorded until way later when they got caught red handed and the evidence was overwhelmingly against them. The honest thing to have done at the time was to make a special note with Elder Poelman's talk right in the Conference Report explaining the circumstances for the change. That didn't happen because the Conference Report was written, printed, published and distributed before The Church realized they were going to need some damage control and it is overwhelmingly obvious President Hinckley would have had to be at the center of all of this including the initial order of the rerecording.

Many members may feel Church leaders deserve an automatic free pass but I am way beyond that point because of Jesus Christ's Warning (Mormon 8:33-41), many other scriptures cooberating with Mormon 8;33-41, all the secret combinations and secret abominations in The Church (Mormon 8:40) that have surfaced in plain sight recently.

In this Conference Report President Benson stated, "Not all truths are of equal value, nor are all scriptures of the same worth." Applying this truth (President Benson stated in that General Conference) to Jesus Christ's Warning (Mormon 8:33-41) makes these scriptures of the most value and worth, or equal to any other, of all other scriptures for Mormons today. A. It is literally the Words of Jesus Christ (Moroni 10:27) and Jesus Christ will personally ask every Mormon about His Warning on Judgment Day. B. This Warning is in the BofM, the most reliable set of scriptures available. C. Jesus Christ doesn't have to prove His Words, they are self evident because they are His Words. Mormons will have to prove themselves worthy at that day by proving they followed this warning, awoke (Ether 8:24) and did something positive about it because they had the faith and testimony to follow Jesus Christ.

Like I stated, I have to respectfully disagree with your statement speaking of Church leaders. I think when you study this all out, and I know you will because I know by The Spirit you are not a Kool-Aid drinker, you will see just how dangerous The Church leadership has become without any oversight or accountability. I pray others will study all this out too, as President Benson said some truths and scriptures are of greater worth, as one of the very most important messages Jesus Christ has given to us even in the BofM and as His personal Words.

Respectfully given with all the love I can muster in my heart for my fellow man.

Brother Jim

jwharton
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Re: The Polluted Holy Church Mormon Chapter 8

Post by jwharton »

Sad to see this thread didn't keep going.
This is a subject of vital importance.

freedomforall
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Re: The Polluted Holy Church Mormon Chapter 8

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Maybe because sensible people don't find this thread as worthwhile, uplifting or edifying. Therefore, it isn't vitally important, rather, it is a downer. Salvation is not a group event. Salvation is each individual, nursery worker all the way up to the Prophet, doing their own soul searching, possessing a burning desire to please the Lord and keep the commandments and their covenants and make a choice to seek the Lord every day until the end of their life. It's not our role to pick apart our high church leaders and and mock their performance. We all are sinners doing our best...so throwing stones is not cool, nor is it a Christian act. Persecution can occur because of pride.

Alma 5:54
54 Yea, will ye persist in supposing that ye are better one than another; yea, will ye persist in the persecution of your brethren, who humble themselves and do walk after the holy order of God, wherewith they have been brought into this church, having been sanctified by the Holy Spirit, and they do bring forth works which are meet for repentance—

Hel. 3:34
34 And they were lifted up in pride, even to the persecution of many of their brethren. Now this was a great evil, which did cause the more humble part of the people to suffer great persecutions, and to wade through much affliction.
35 Nevertheless they did fast and pray oft, and did wax stronger and stronger in their humility, and firmer and firmer in the faith of Christ, unto the filling their souls with joy and consolation, yea, even to the purifying and the sanctification of their hearts, which sanctification cometh because of their yielding their hearts unto God.

TG Submissiveness; Teachable.

Self righteousness and judging others with malice and/or a pointed finger is a sign that one's own heart is not right with God.

Alma 41:11
11 And now, my son, all men that are in a state of nature, or I would say, in a carnal state, are in the gall of bitterness and in the bonds of iniquity; they are without God in the world, and they have gone contrary to the nature of God; therefore, they are in a state contrary to the nature of happiness.

simpleton
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Re: The Polluted Holy Church Mormon Chapter 8

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Ezekial 14 was quoted above....

Ezekial 34 covers the whole ground...

1 And the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,

2 Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel, prophesy, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God unto the shepherds; Woe be to the shepherds of Israel that do feed themselves! should not the shepherds feed the flocks?

3 Ye eat the fat, and ye clothe you with the wool, ye kill them that are fed: but ye feed not the flock.

4 The diseased have ye not strengthened, neither have ye healed that which was sick, neither have ye bound up that which was broken, neither have ye brought again that which was driven away, neither have ye sought that which was lost; but with force and with cruelty have ye ruled them.

5 And they were scattered, because there is no shepherd: and they became meat to all the beasts of the field, when they were scattered.

6 My sheep wandered through all the mountains, and upon every high hill: yea, my flock was scattered upon all the face of the earth, and none did search or seek after them.

7 ¶Therefore, ye shepherds, hear the word of the Lord;

8 As I live, saith the Lord God, surely because my flock became a prey, and my flock became meat to every beast of the field, because there was no shepherd, neither did my shepherds search for my flock, but the shepherds fed themselves, and fed not my flock;

9 Therefore, O ye shepherds, hear the word of the Lord;

10 Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am against the shepherds; and I will require my flock at their hand, and cause them to cease from feeding the flock; neither shall the shepherds feed themselves any more; for I will deliver my flock from their mouth, that they may not be meat for them.

11 ¶For thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I, even I, will both search my sheep, and seek them out.

12 As a shepherd seeketh out his flock in the day that he is among his sheep that are scattered; so will I seek out my sheep, and will deliver them out of all places where they have been scattered in the cloudy and dark day.

13 And I will bring them out from the people, and gather them from the countries, and will bring them to their own land, and feed them upon the mountains of Israel by the rivers, and in all the inhabited places of the country.

14 I will feed them in a good pasture, and upon the high mountains of Israel shall their fold be: there shall they lie in a good fold, and in a fat pasture shall they feed upon the mountains of Israel.

15 I will feed my flock, and I will cause them to lie down, saith the Lord God.

16 I will seek that which was lost, and bring again that which was driven away, and will bind up that which was broken, and will strengthen that which was sick: but I will destroy the fat and the strong; I will feed them with judgment.

17 And as for you, O my flock, thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I judge between cattle and cattle, between the rams and the he goats.

18 Seemeth it a small thing unto you to have eaten up the good pasture, but ye must tread down with your feet the residue of your pastures? and to have drunk of the deep waters, but ye must foul the residue with your feet?

19 And as for my flock, they eat that which ye have trodden with your feet; and they drink that which ye have fouled with your feet.

20 ¶Therefore thus saith the Lord God unto them; Behold, I, even I, will judge between the fat cattle and between the lean cattle.

21 Because ye have thrust with side and with shoulder, and pushed all the diseased with your horns, till ye have scattered them abroad;

22 Therefore will I save my flock, and they shall no more be a prey; and I will judge between cattle and cattle.

23 And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, even my servant David; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd.

24 And I the Lord will be their God, and my servant David a prince among them; I the Lord have spoken it.

25 And I will make with them a covenant of peace, and will cause the evil beasts to cease out of the land: and they shall dwell safely in the wilderness, and sleep in the woods.

26 And I will make them and the places round about my hill a blessing; and I will cause the shower to come down in his season; there shall be showers of blessing.

27 And the tree of the field shall yield her fruit, and the earth shall yield her increase, and they shall be safe in their land, and shall know that I am the Lord, when I have broken the bands of their yoke, and delivered them out of the hand of those that served themselves of them.

28 And they shall no more be a prey to the heathen, neither shall the beast of the land devour them; but they shall dwell safely, and none shall make them afraid.

29 And I will raise up for them a plant of renown, and they shall be no more consumed with hunger in the land, neither bear the shame of the heathen any more.

30 Thus shall they know that I the Lord their God am with them, and that they, even the house of Israel, are my people, saith the Lord God.

31 And ye my flock, the flock of my pasture, are men, and I am your God, saith the Lord God.

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Mark
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Re: The Polluted Holy Church Mormon Chapter 8

Post by Mark »

jwharton wrote:Sad to see this thread didn't keep going.
This is a subject of vital importance.

It is but not in the way many here might suppose. I would just implore anyone who wants to understand what the Lord expects of his Saints in these latter days to read and then reread John Pontius wonderful book "Following the light of Christ into His Presence".

John does such a wonderful job in explaining the principles of becoming a Saint by experiencing the rebirth process in their lives through strictly obeying the promptings we receive from the Holy Ghost. Any condemnation from the Lord rests upon those who choose to submit instead to the natural man tendencies and ignore those promptings of light and truth given us thru the light of Christ and the Holy Ghosts constant companionship.

Blaming anyone except the man or women in the mirror for any perceived levels of condemnation upon the church is so shortsighted and misses the mark completely imo. Once we become a new creature in Christ and gain the Lords total confidence of perfectly obeying his still small voice in all situations He then bestows upon us all the needed gifts of the Spirit and we remove any condemnation upon our own heads.

This is a very individual process and it happens one Saint at a time. No group think mentality or feeble excuses or outward blame games in all this. We then seek with love and charity to help our brothers and sisters around us thru kindness and long suffering to see the marvelous opportunities of forsaking babylons pull and coming unto Christ with full purpose of heart by obedience to His voice he constantly is whispersing in our hearts and minds. We then grow in light and truth until the mysteries of heaven are unfolded unto us.

If we are caught up in condemning and complaining and throwing out self righteous judgments upon the church leaders or the church in general for perceived weaknesses of the flesh we have not experienced that mighty change of heart for ourselves and need to repent and heal ourselves first. D&C 121 is our guide. Any other way comes from the powers of darkness.

jwharton
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3067
Location: USA

Re: The Polluted Holy Church Mormon Chapter 8

Post by jwharton »

Mark wrote:If we are caught up in condemning and complaining and throwing out self righteous judgments upon the church leaders or the church in general for perceived weaknesses of the flesh we have not experienced that mighty change of heart for ourselves and need to repent and heal ourselves first. D&C 121 is our guide. Any other way comes from the powers of darkness.
This is carefully worded in such a way that of course someone should agree with it.

But, it is entirely appropriate for people to make righteous judgment in regard to not only our own individual actions but also for the actions we as a member of a covenant collective also bear responsibility for.

There is a reason we are asked to sustain or object in our general assemblies. We are asked to judge and all of us are to do so to the best of our ability. If any have sincere grievances it is not an act of self-righteousness to petition for redress of those grievances.

So, please, while I sense you mean well, we do have a responsibility to participate as a member of the body and make our voice heard and we need to sincerely listen to the voices of others of our brothers and sisters who should also be heard by us.

If we do not come together and become One then we are not of the Lord and we are not worthy of His divine protection.

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rewcox
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5873

Re: The Polluted Holy Church Mormon Chapter 8

Post by rewcox »

jwharton wrote:
Mark wrote:If we are caught up in condemning and complaining and throwing out self righteous judgments upon the church leaders or the church in general for perceived weaknesses of the flesh we have not experienced that mighty change of heart for ourselves and need to repent and heal ourselves first. D&C 121 is our guide. Any other way comes from the powers of darkness.
This is carefully worded in such a way that of course someone should agree with it.

But, it is entirely appropriate for people to make righteous judgment in regard to not only our own individual actions but also for the actions we as a member of a covenant collective also bear responsibility for.

There is a reason we are asked to sustain or object in our general assemblies. We are asked to judge and all of us are to do so to the best of our ability. If any have sincere grievances it is not an act of self-righteousness to petition for redress of those grievances.

So, please, while I sense you mean well, we do have a responsibility to participate as a member of the body and make our voice heard and we need to sincerely listen to the voices of others of our brothers and sisters who should also be heard by us.

If we do not come together and become One then we are not of the Lord and we are not worthy of His divine protection.
There is only one pathway of safety for me in this day and that is to follow those whom the Lord has appointed to lead. I may have my own ideas and opinions, I may set up my own judgment with reference to things, but I know that when my judgment conflicts with the teachings of those that the Lord has given to us to point the way, I should change my course. If I desire salvation I will follow the leaders that our Heavenly Father has given to us, as long as he sustains them.11
George Albert Smith

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