The Polluted Holy Church Mormon Chapter 8

[Robert Sinclair]

In order to do all that healing of the blind and crippled and deaf, they must first heal themselves of spiritual blindness and deafness and crippling actions of inequality among us.

They must do as the invitation from Jesus Christ beckons, to bring forth fruits equal and delightful unto the Lord, by preparing for the poor and needy among us, a feast of fat things required, well refined, and bring his bride, the church, out of the closet, clothed with equity and justice and righteousness and goodness and purity of heart of all things common among them, giving stewardships of inheritances of covenants and deeds that cannot be broken into the hands of the poor Saints sufficient for the support of their families, that they may have oil in their lamps to shine brightly in the darkness of the teachings of men, as a light and an ensign for all the world to see, as to how to treat the poor among us, confounded no more, on how to treat the poor.

♡ ♡

Then wait with patient hope, for the bridegroom to come forth and bless and baptize you with cloven tongues of fire and power from on high to go forth and physically open up the eyes of the blind and unstop the ears of the deaf and healing all manner of crippling afflictions among us. ♡ ♡

[Jim Kelley]

Brother Obrien,

A-men to what you said, "In Mormon chapter 8, we have a direct prophetic vision of the church in the last days, and a specific warning to us, that it is corrupted and transfigured and polluted. We are the only people for whom such a warning makes sense, since we are the only people that read the BoM. Jesus is pretty smart, to include the warning for the people who need it most."

May I also add that Mormons also have the only church in the latter-days that even comes close to qualifying as "the holy church of God."

Actually The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints qualifies perfectly for "the holy church of God" in the latter-days.

Where much is given much is expected and where much blessings are bestowed much responsibility is required.

We have the one and only True Church on the face of the whole earth. It is all of our responsibilities to keep The Church holy.

Denial that anything is wrong will not help but awakening (Ether 8:24) to the obvious corruptions, "pollutions" and "hypocrites" can help.

Bro. Jim

[jwharton]

This is material from a talk given in 1969 by Ezra Taft Benson.

The Lord distinguishes between the Church and its members. He said he was well pleased with the restored Church, speaking collectively, but not individually. (D&C 1:30.) During his ministry on earth, the Lord spoke of the gospel net drawing in fish. The good fish, he said, were gathered into vessels, while the bad were cast away.

It is important to realize that while the Church is made up of mortals, no mortal is the Church. Judas, for a period of time, was a member of the Church—in fact, one of its apostles—but the Church was not Judas.

Disharmony of some members

Sometimes we hear someone refer to a division in the Church. In reality, the Church is not divided. It simply means that there are some who, for the time being at least, are members of the Church but not in harmony with it. These people have a temporary membership and influence in the Church; but unless they repent, they will be missing when the final membership records are recorded.

It is well that our people understand this principle, so they will not be misled by those apostates within the Church who have not yet repented or been cut off. But there is a cleansing coming. The Lord says that his vengeance shall be poured out "upon the inhabitants of the earth. . . . And upon my house shall it begin, and from my house shall it go forth, saith the Lord; First among those among you, saith the Lord, who have professed to know my name and have not known me. . . ." (D&C 112:24-26.) I look forward to that cleansing; its need within the Church is becoming increasingly apparent.

The Lord strengthened the faith of the early apostles by pointing out Judas as a traitor, even before this apostle had completed his iniquitous work. So also in our day the Lord has told us of the tares within the wheat that will eventually be hewn down when they are fully ripe. But until they are hewn down, they will be with us, amongst us. The hymn entitled "Though in the Outward Church Below" contains this thought:

"Though in the outward Church below

Both wheat and tares together grow,

Ere long will Jesus weed the crop

And pluck the tares in anger up. . . .

We seem alike when here we meet;

Strangers may think we are all wheat;

But to the Lord's all-searching eyes,

Each heart appears without disguise.

The tares are spared for various ends,

Some for the sake of praying friends,

Others the Lord against their will,

Employs, his counsels to fulfill.

But though they grow so tall and strong,

His plan will not require them long;

In harvest, when he saves his own,

The tares shall into hell be thrown."

(Hymns, No. 102.)

Tares among the wheat

Yes, within the Church today there are tares among the wheat and wolves within the flock. As President Clark stated, "The ravening wolves are amongst us, from our own membership, and they, more than any others, are clothed in sheep's clothing because they wear the habiliments of the priesthood. . . . We should be careful of them. . . ." (Era, May 1949, p. 268. See also, Conference Report, April 1949, p. 163.)

The wolves amongst our flock are more numerous and devious today than when President Clark made this statement.

President McKay has said that "the Church is little, if at all, injured by persecution and calumnies from ignorant, misinformed or malicious enemies. A greater hindrance to its progress comes from faultfinders, shirkers, commandment-breakers, and apostate cliques within its own ecclesiastical and quorum groups." (Era, December 1967, p. 35. See also, Conference Report, October 1967, p. 9.)

Not only are there apostates within our midst, but there are also apostate doctrines that are sometimes taught in our classes and from our pulpits and that appear in our publications. And these apostate precepts of men cause our people to stumble. As the Book of Mormon, speaking of our day, states: ". . . they have all gone astray save it a few, who are the humble followers of Christ; nevertheless, they are led, that in many instances they do err because they are taught by the precepts of men." (2 Ne. 28:14.)

The precepts of men

Let us consider some of the precepts of men that may and do cause some of the humble followers of Christ to err.

Christ taught that we should be in the world but not of it. Yet there are some in our midst who are not so much concerned about taking the gospel into the world as the are about bringing worldliness into the gospel. They want us to be in the world and of it. They want us to be popular with the worldly even though a prophet has said that this is impossible, for all hell would then want to join us.

Through their own reasoning and a few misapplied scriptures, they try to sell us the precepts and philosophies of men. They do not feel the Church is progressive enough—they say that it should embrace the social and socialist gospel of apostate Christendom.

They are bothered that President McKay believes that "the social side of the Restored Gospel is only an incident of it; it is not the end thereof." (Letter of the First Presidency to Dr. Lowry Nelson, July 17, 1947.)

They attack the Church for not being in the forefront of the so-called "civil rights movement." They are embarrassed over some Church doctrine, and as Lehi foretold, the scoffing of the world over this and other matters will cause some of them to be ashamed and they shall fall away. (See 1 Ne. 8:28.)

[Jim Kelley]

Dear jwharton,

Thank you soooo much for sharing Elder Benson's talk.

What a great man of God and as I have said before a man who speaks straightforward for the Lord.

I see this talk as complimenting Jesus Christ's Warning (Mormon 8:33-41 and Chapter Nine).

As I have said before The Church organization is incapable of polluting itself. It will take members and G.A.s to do the polluting.

In Jesus Christ's Warning we see that "your churches, yea, even every one, have become polluted because of the pride of your hearts" (verse 36).

So obviously the pollutions spoken by the Lord will infect every branch, ward and stake.

This has been done with the secret Leadership Policy Manuals that require local Church leaders to punish local Saints who raise legitimate concerns about the direction of Church policy or the lack of policy in some instances.

Obviously Church doctrine is dictated by direct revelation from God but Church policy is something members should have some say in because members are paying the bill with their tithes and offerings.

For The Church to spend tithing money on projects like the City Creek Center Mall is just wrong and should have never happened.

It is important to note the term "churches" means "another branch of the Church; not another denomination" (footnote for D&C 51:10).

Again thank you for this insight.

Brother Jim

[Jim Kelley]

May I also add to my explanations that to speak "ill" of the Lord's anointed is another pollution in those secret Leadership Policy Handbooks.

In the temple the wording is to not speak "evil" of the Lord's anointed. There is a difference.

In the secret manuals The First Presidency has "transfigured" the temple endowment ordinance to mean a member of The Church "shall" not speak ill of a Church leader or that member "shall" be reprimanded even unto excommunication "even if what is said is true."

The temple endowment ordinance to not speak evil only means to not lie about the Lord's anointed.

To speak the truth is a basic Gospel Principle and in the U.S.A. a First Amendment Right.

[Jim Kelley]

The Church pulled an Elder Poelman in 1984.

I am giving you two links of an incredible story how Church officials changed Elder Poelman’s October 1984 General Conference talk, why they did it and how they did it.

If it were not for a few Saints in 1984 having video recorders to record this talk the truth may have never been known. Remember there were few video recorders in 1984 and The Church obviously was hoping no one had recorded the original talk or if they did would not come forward to tell the truth.

This obvious Church deception fits why no one has ever addressed Jesus Christ’s Warning (Mormon 8:33-41 and Chapter Nine) in General Conference since Elder L. Tom Perry gave his talk in October, 1992, that specifically linked Mormon 8:34-38 to the Mormon Church as “the holy church of God.”

In 1984 The Church tried the tactic to rerecord Elder Poelman’s Conference talk to alter its meaning of free agency to absolute obedience to Church leaders. Because The Church had learned, by getting caught red handed because a few members had their own video recording and they were not going to shut up, The Church knew better than to pull an Elder Poelman in 1992.

So The Church did the next best thing for their evil designs. The order went out no one shall ever discuss Mormon 8:33-41 and Chapter Nine in any way, shape or form that will link The Church and/or leadership to those revealing verses. Not even the Seminaries and Institute Departments of The Church are allowed, obviously by direct orders, to teach about Mormon 8:33-41 and Chapter Nine having anything to do with The Church. Check all the student manuals for yourself and you will discover a suspicious dark hole of knowledge right where commentary for Mormon 8:33-41 and Chapter Nine should be.

The Church did not deny Elder Poelman’s talk was rerecorded after they got caught. Later their official explanation was Elder Poelman decided on his own to alter his own talk. Apparently Elder Poelman went along with this official explanation because he lived many years after his rerecorded infamous talk.

Here are the links for you to investigate yourself and you can be the judge if you think Elder Poelman changed his original words on his own.

http://puremormonism.blogspot.com/2010/ ... ad_13.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.lds-mormon.com/poelman.shtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Brother Jim

Late Entry: Here is an interesting discovery. This morning (Mar. 7, 2015) I went to Elder Poelman’s 1984 Semi- Annual General Conference talk and viewed the video. It worked just fine. Then I wanted to compare other videos in the same session to compare how the background looked. The other videos would not work so I was not able to make a side by side comparison.

I wanted to see if there were people, the choir, etc. in the other videos because that is suspiciously lacking in the Poelman video. The Church apparently admitted, after they were caught in the act, this was a rerecorded video but it seems to me The Church doesn’t want it to be too obvious on their own website.

Here is the link for the infamous Elder Poelman rerecorded Conference talk. There are previous and next buttons in the upper right hand corner to go to another speaker and video in case you would want to try a side by side comparison yourself. See if it works for you. And yes I tried to go to the main menu to view another video and that did not work either.

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/ ... atch=video" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Second Late Entry: Please note in my first Late Entry I made note the conference talk’s videos just before and right after Elder Poelman’s talk were not working so one could not make a good side by side comparison.

I went to those talks again this evening, Mar. 7, 2015, at 11:00 PM and they have been restored. Now a person can compare these three, side by side, talks and discover for themselves the background is quite different.

In Elder Poelman’s talk, with the one exception at 4 minutes and about 50 seconds where there is a very far off shot, there are absolutely no background people visible. In the before and after talks there is the customary background people visible.

These video links being fixed after my comments on this website reminds me of Cold War Russia. If a foreign dignitary were in a Moscow hotel room the quickest way to get room service was to just say something about what you needed out loud in your room. The KGB would hear your needs over the listening bugs and notify room service. Room service came right away with your request.

Don’t think for even one moment Church H.Q. isn’t monitoring every post and response on this website.

Can you hear the theme song for Secret Agent Man in the background?

Brother Jim

[Jim Kelley]

Everything in the Ensign, especially the Conference editions, are supposed to be reviewed and approved by The First Presidency. That is established Church policy from way back ever since there was an Ensign and even before that when it was the Conference Report publications that were approved by The First Presidency before printing.

By this illustration of what obviously happened to Elder Poelman's Conference talk is there any doubt in anyone's mind "pollutions" and "hypocrites" have risen to the level of The First Presidency as early as 1984?

1984 was at the very end of President Kimball's service as The Prophet. There is no doubt in my mind President Kimball was an honest and honorable Prophet of God. My observation and my opinion is his 3rd counselor, President Hinckley, was the source of this particular pollution were Elder Poelman's talk was altered.

There is no doubt in my mind President Benson was an honest and honorable Prophet of God too.

After President Benson passed away and other men filled the position of Prophet is where I have my doubts about the integrity of The Presidents of The Church.

Bro. Jim

[jwharton]

http://www.lds-mormon.com/poelman.shtml

I read through these changes and was astounded at the difference made.
A great talk was eviscerated into "just follow the Prophet" pabulum.

He may have made these changes himself, but I would be sore amazed if it wasn't after he was soundly rebuked point for point.

I also watched the video footage and I could tell the difference. He looked quite vitalized and in an experience of joy when it showed him beginning his talk, where the background was obviously legitimate. Then, when the background went to the "cough track" and it was obviously being redubbed, he didn't have that same vitality in his eyes. It seemed fake and contrived.

This is a very classic example of the shift from the Father's spirit of agency and individual accountability over to the absolute and unquestioning obedience of Luciferian authoritarianism.

If this trend doesn't get arrested and we demand "enough of the blasphemy, give us back our rights" this church will begin to grow smaller and less vital and our convert retention will get worse and worse. We will start losing our best and most intelligent members and only be able to retain those of a lower class mentality that just want to become someone else's minions.

Heavenly Father does NOT want minions.

That is the plan of the adversary.

[Jim Kelley]

http://www.lds-mormon.com/poelman.shtml

I read through these changes and was astounded at the difference made.
A great talk was eviscerated into "just follow the Prophet" pabulum.

He may have made these changes himself, but I would be sore amazed if it wasn't after he was soundly rebuked point for point.

I also watched the video footage and I could tell the difference. He looked quite vitalized and in an experience of joy when it showed him beginning his talk, where the background was obviously legitimate. Then, when the background went to the "cough track" and it was obviously being redubbed, he didn't have that same vitality in his eyes. It seemed fake and contrived.

This is a very classic example of the shift from the Father's spirit of agency and individual accountability over to the absolute and unquestioning obedience of Luciferian authoritarianism.

If this trend doesn't get arrested and we demand "enough of the blasphemy, give us back our rights" this church will begin to grow smaller and less vital and our convert retention will get worse and worse. We will start losing our best and most intelligent members and only be able to retain those of a lower class mentality that just want to become someone else's minions.

Heavenly Father does NOT want minions.

That is the plan of the adversary.

I am so glad you viewed the official Church video and reported back what your observations were.

This is absolute proof positive there are "pollutions" and "hypocrites" among the very top leadership in The Church.

Considering our Church leaders are not dummies, and Satan is not a dummy (just real proud beyond proper reasoning) what is there hidden in The Church that we can not easily see Church leaders were-are successfully hiding from the members?

Elder Poelman's talk and City Creek Center Mall are no doubt not even the tip of the ice berg.

My personal belief is if The Church leadership quite being "hypocrites" and obey the commandments of Jesus Christ they would become so inspired to lead in the missionary work there would be a million convert baptisms a year instead of the snail pace of 200,000 per year.

Before someone tries to claim 200,000 per year is not a snail's pace may I remind everyone the population of the earth is over 6 Billion (with a "B") and increases by at least 100 million people per year. By any comparison 200,000 convert baptisms is a snail's pace especially considering the church is almost 200 years old.

There is no doubt there are perhaps 1 billion people out there who would be convert baptisms if only they were properly contacted, properly taught and felt The Holy Ghost while contacted and taught by the Latter-day Saints.

My opinion is until The Church throws off the chains of "pollutions" and "hypocrites" convert baptisms will stay stagnant at about 200,000 no matter how many full-time missionaries march off to the mission fields. But then that is just my opinion.

Here is a statistical truth. Successful convert baptisms (and retention) for the most part are a result of members having The Spirit and in reality has very little to do with the full-time missionaries. Members are most generally the ones who find investigators for the missionaries to teach and members are most generally the ones who will help, if anyone helps, to retain converts. So if members are not 100% on their assignments of home and visiting teaching currently how likely will they be 100% on retention efforts with new converts? And new converts often need 100% efforts from others to stay active. They can fall through the cracks real easy.

I guess what I am trying to say is everything fits together like every part of a body and if The Church is polluted that effects every part and no part is left without the effects of pollutions.

Brother Jim

[jwharton]

The bottom-line is ever since we were driven out of the Garden in Jackson Co. Missouri and scattered again we have been under the power of what can be called the "second death". Think of it as the fall of Ephraim functioning in its birthright position of Michael-Adam in the latter-days. We have been placed under the buffetings of the adversary and we are now looking forward to our redemption, which will be the "second resurrection".

We have already been called to redemption and God is standing by to fight our battles but we are who need to make the steps. The determining factor is when we simply put our minds to repenting and keeping the covenants we make in the temple. We don't covenant in the temple to live the law of tithing, we covenant to live the law of consecration. Evidently we have more lessons we need to learn the hard way instead of just repenting of refusing to render the acceptable offering the Father is looking for.

[Jim Kelley]

I am concerned about a new statement recently printed on tithing/donation slips:

"Though reasonable efforts will be made globally to use donations as designated, all donations become the Church's property and will be used at the Church's sole discretion to further the Church's overall mission."

Does that mean that what I put down as a humanitarian aid donation can be shifted to the missionary fund or general church usage, investment, or whatever? How can that be ethical?

It just seems to me if a member, or even non-member donations other than tithing which there are some, has designated a donation to a certain fund that money should stay in that fund. This statement just gives the G.A.s license to move the funds where ever they want to kind of like the U.S. Federal Government does. This is exactly why Social Security is insolvent now because SS money was diverted to the Federal Government General Treasury Fund.

So if people donate money for humanitarian aid and then The Church transfers some of that money to investments and then there is not enough money for the humanitarian aid causes The Church will come back and ask for more humanitarian aid donations? That is exactly what happened to SS.

With a policy like this The Church may as well just have a general tithing donation category and be done with it. That would be a lot more honest.

Bro. Jim

[Jim Kelley]

The thread, WHAT DO FALSE PROPHETS OR TEACHERS LOOK LIKE, was locked permanently today, Mar. 7, 2015, at about 9:00 PM.

What a shame.

I was going to post this on that thread but I will do it here:

What do false prophets and teachers look like? They look like everyone else. They just teach false stuff on purpose.

The on purpose is a tricky identifier because on purpose can be an act with malice or it can be incompetence just because the teacher didn't research the subject enough.

Actually a true prophet or a true teacher can transition into a false prophet and/or a false teacher when they "transfigure" (Mormon 8:38) the truth and especially if they "transfigure" the holy scriptures on purpose for unrighteous gain (Mormon 8:33).

Remember Satan will teach 9 truths if he can get 1 of his false doctrines taught. It doesn't matter to him if you have those 9 truths if that 1 false doctrine will lead you to hell.

In the same way a true prophet and a true teacher can be teaching 9 truths and if they insert 1 false principle (at least on purpose) they at that time become a false prophet and/or a false teacher.

Why would anyone even want to teach false doctrine? Jesus Christ's Warning (Mormon 8:33-41) specifically identifies "the pride of their hearts," "money" and "that which will canker" which I suppose may be money too or something like unto money.

Everyone, me too, look at yourselves on this website. If you can't act, write, comment and be civil then how in the world do you think you will have place in the Celestial Kingdom?

We all have a real good thing going here. We have a terrific forum to express ourselves in a way The Church G.A.s notice. There is no doubt SLC watches and monitors this website to get a feel for the pulse of The Church.

When some express their legitimate concerns then SLC takes note.

When some try to confound those who have legitimate concerns with flawed logic and the "transfiguring" of the scriptures then SLC says "YES!" We have been quite successful in teaching absolute, strict obedience to Church leaders without questioning anything, even including what the scriptures say.

Some have suggested letter writing campaigns to SLC for their concerns. May I suggest well thought out and respectful posts on this website will do more for our legitimate concerns than the few who will write a letter.

One reason posts on this website will work is if the G.A.s do do something positive to correct something then they can act like it was their inspired idea. If a bunch of members send letters then it is hard to not look like they reacted to a bunch of letters.

This approach may seem slow because it is an indirect approach but this may be the only way that will actually work and cleanse The Church.

Respectfully submitted for your consideration,

Brother Jim

[Jim Kelley]

I didn’t know this until someone mentioned this on this website.

According to the Deseret News a rare and sudden tornado swept through downtown Salt Lake City, Utah, Wednesday, August 11, 1999, doing damage to the new LDS Conference Center while it was under construction.

The scriptures are plain that rain can fall on the just and the unjust at the same time and so by extension a tornado can hit the just and the unjust at the same time.

Witnesses reported seeing the tornado make an evasive maneuver to avoid hitting the SLC Temple. Thank God. That is just to scary to think the holy temple would be hit and seriously damaged.

The under construction Conference Center was hit and sustained some damage.

I ask, was this a warning shot over the bow from the Lord?

If it was it was not heeded by the G.A.s because they built the City Creek Center Mall, almost right next door, several years later.

Just some food for thought.

Bro. Jim

[jwharton]

I didn’t know this until someone mentioned this on this website.

According to the Deseret News a rare and sudden tornado swept through downtown Salt Lake City, Utah, Wednesday, August 11, 1999, doing damage to the new LDS Conference Center while it was under construction.

The scriptures are plain that rain can fall on the just and the unjust at the same time and so by extension a tornado can hit the just and the unjust at the same time.

Witnesses reported seeing the tornado make an evasive maneuver to avoid hitting the SLC Temple. Thank God. That is just to scary to think the holy temple would be hit and seriously damaged.

The under construction Conference Center was hit and sustained some damage.

I ask, was this a warning shot over the bow from the Lord?

If it was it was not heeded by the G.A.s because they built the City Creek Center Mall, almost right next door, several years later.

Just some food for thought.

Bro. Jim

That is the tornado that hit less than 24 hours prior to when I happened to be flying low in a small plane right over downtown Salt Lake and could survey the damage. It was extensive. It totally toppled at least one of the massive cranes used in the construction and debris was spread all over the place. Apparently the tornado also visited a gay bar and decimated it as well as a grove of trees that used to be a really popular make-out place. Seems to me God was indeed doing a "connect the dots" illustration. I got to see it all with my own eyes.

[Tony]

This is material from a talk given in 1969 by Ezra Taft Benson.

President McKay has said that "the Church is little, if at all, injured by persecution and calumnies from ignorant, misinformed or malicious enemies. A greater hindrance to its progress comes from faultfinders, shirkers, commandment-breakers, and apostate cliques within its own ecclesiastical and quorum groups."

The precepts of men

Let us consider some of the precepts of men that may and do cause some of the humble followers of Christ to err.

Christ taught that we should be in the world but not of it. Yet there are some in our midst who are not so much concerned about taking the gospel into the world as the are about bringing worldliness into the gospel. They want us to be in the world and of it. They want us to be popular with the worldly even though a prophet has said that this is impossible, for all hell would then want to join us.

Through their own reasoning and a few misapplied scriptures, they try to sell us the precepts and philosophies of men. They do not feel the Church is progressive enough—they say that it should embrace the social and socialist gospel of apostate Christendom.

President David O. McKay said, “A greater hindrance to its progress comes from faultfinders, shirkers, commandment-breakers, and apostate cliques.”

Ezra Taft Benson criticized members who use “their own reasoning and a few misapplied scriptures” to justify a perspective that is in conflict with Church doctrine and practices.

I noticed that there was no criticism the Church itself, or its leaders, doctrines, or practices. But this forum has plenty of “faultfinders” and members who use “their own reasoning and a few misapplied scriptures” to justify a perspective that is in conflict with Church doctrine and practices.

People would do well to listen to and follow the prophet and abide by the doctrine that Jesus Christ established through his anointed servants.

[deep water]

Tony, will you please describe how a servant becomes anointed, in your understandings? I would be greatly interested in your teachings on the subject.

[jwharton]

Through their own reasoning and a few misapplied scriptures, they try to sell us the precepts and philosophies of men.

The tares look for every way possible to choke out the wheat that is just struggling to keep it's "breath". When things get really polluted, which they are, breathing becomes quite difficult.

The degree to which the tares pollute things creates unique circumstances where a gauntlet of tests are administered to the children of Zion and Zion itself. Before Zion shall be redeemed, the Lord said Zion shall be proven in all things. (D&C 136:31)

What we are going through is a full-spectrum all-encompassing case study of how all of the laws of God are what the are and to provide the impetus to have them become written in our hearts, those who hang in there and keep their hearts pure, that is.

To truly know the doctrine of the Kingdom you must be 100% willing to do the will of the Father. If you are not of a disposition to do the will of the Father, your doctrines will be lacking and your level of light will be insufficient to stand on your own. You will be insecure and you will look to others to cling to for strength and assistance.

The endowment teaches us that Adam proves Himself true and faithful in all things. Pinning your salvation onto the sleeves of the brethren may suffice for salvation, but it won't suffice for exaltation. Entering into your exaltation means a person has the capacity to pass by the angels and the gods who are set there.

I realize there is great comfort in tethering yourself to the brethren as they are there to administer the ordinances of salvation and show the way to exaltation, but to actually receive exaltation in the Father's Kingdom under worthy and favorable conditions is a matter that extends beyond the point that you have angels and gods to lean on. I hope you will bear that in mind.

[Jim Kelley]

This is material from a talk given in 1969 by Ezra Taft Benson.

President McKay has said that "the Church is little, if at all, injured by persecution and calumnies from ignorant, misinformed or malicious enemies. A greater hindrance to its progress comes from faultfinders, shirkers, commandment-breakers, and apostate cliques within its own ecclesiastical and quorum groups."

The precepts of men

Let us consider some of the precepts of men that may and do cause some of the humble followers of Christ to err.

Christ taught that we should be in the world but not of it. Yet there are some in our midst who are not so much concerned about taking the gospel into the world as the are about bringing worldliness into the gospel. They want us to be in the world and of it. They want us to be popular with the worldly even though a prophet has said that this is impossible, for all hell would then want to join us.

Through their own reasoning and a few misapplied scriptures, they try to sell us the precepts and philosophies of men. They do not feel the Church is progressive enough—they say that it should embrace the social and socialist gospel of apostate Christendom.

President David O. McKay said, “A greater hindrance to its progress comes from faultfinders, shirkers, commandment-breakers, and apostate cliques.”

Ezra Taft Benson criticized members who use “their own reasoning and a few misapplied scriptures” to justify a perspective that is in conflict with Church doctrine and practices.

I noticed that there was no criticism the Church itself, or its leaders, doctrines, or practices. But this forum has plenty of “faultfinders” and members who use “their own reasoning and a few misapplied scriptures” to justify a perspective that is in conflict with Church doctrine and practices.

People would do well to listen to and follow the prophet and abide by the doctrine that Jesus Christ established through his anointed servants.

Tony, welcome back to this thread, it was boring without you and you were missed.

I have no argument with what Presidents McKay and Benson said and wrote because they were inspired Prophets and The Church had set doctrine to follow then which was not contradicted by The Prophets up to that point.

I am sure President McKay said, “A greater hindrance to its progress comes from… apostate cliques within its own ecclesiastical and quorum groups." Notice he made no exclusion or exemption for the Quorum of The Twelve or even The First Presidency.

You state President Benson criticized members who use “their own reasoning and a few misapplied scriptures” to justify a perspective that is in conflict with Church doctrine and practices. Jesus Christ’s Warning (Mormon 8:33-41 and Chapter Nine) is more than just a few scriptures and these are the Words of Jesus Christ (Moroni 10:27). Also there are dozens of other scriptures that are in fill harmony with Jesus Christ’s Warning giving added force and credibility to this Warning.

Then you state, “People would do well to listen to and follow the prophet and abide by the doctrine that Jesus Christ established through his anointed servants.”

If the current Prophets speak contrary to “the doctrine that Jesus Christ established” then we have a conflict and a true disciple of Jesus Christ will follow Jesus Christ and not the arm of flesh.

The Holy Ghost has given me a sure testimony that “the holy church of God” (Mormon 8:38) is a direct reference to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and a prudent person can then connect the dots for themselves.

One of the problems with following established Church doctrine about “the holy church of God” is there is none except for Elder Perry’s talk which you, and others, totally discount as false doctrine never to be repeated again because it doesn’t fit your “reasoning and a few misapplied scriptures.”

Here is a good story to consider about following Church leaders:

When I told my Stake President (six years ago) about being told by The Spirit to arise and go to my BofM and it then fell open to Mormon 8:38 and my eyes focused on “the holy church of God” and The Spirit caused my mind to instantly know and understand that was a direct reference to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints my Stake President immediately stated I was under the influence of contrary spirits and this was just exactly like when The Church was first started some of the brethren were receiving revelations from a crystal ball.

I asked if he was comparing the BofM to a crystal ball? No answer.

Also during this same meeting, with both of his councilors present, Stake President Thedell assured me Mormon Chapters Eight and Nine were written by Mormon and NOT Moroni. I advise him in Mormon 8:1 it says different and he would not read it for himself then but insisted he was right.

Months later when I brought up his folly he mocked me saying it was his word against mine he ever said that. Apparently he did read Mormon 8:1 later and discovered his err and was too proud to ever admit he could have been wrong.

So what am I to do? Follow known Church leader “hypocrites” who compare the BofM to a crystal ball or follow the Words of Jesus Christ in the BofM?

I will follow Jesus Christ and others would do well to do the same.

Brother Jim

[jwharton]

Here is a good story to consider about following Church leaders:

When I told my Stake President (six years ago) about being told by The Spirit to arise and go to my BofM and it then fell open to Mormon 8:38 and my eyes focused on “the holy church of God” and The Spirit caused my mind to instantly know and understand that was a direct reference to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints my Stake President immediately stated I was under the influence of contrary spirits and this was just exactly like when The Church was first started some of the brethren were receiving revelations from a crystal ball.

I asked if he was comparing the BofM to a crystal ball? No answer.

Also during this same meeting, with both of his councilors present, Stake President Thedell assured me Mormon Chapters Eight and Nine were written by Mormon and NOT Moroni. I advise him in Mormon 8:1 it says different and he would not read it for himself then but insisted he was right.

Months later when I brought up his folly he mocked me saying it was his word against mine he ever said that. Apparently he did read Mormon 8:1 later and discovered his err and was too proud to ever admit he could have been wrong.

So what am I to do? Follow known Church leader “hypocrites” who compare the BofM to a crystal ball or follow the Words of Jesus Christ in the BofM?

That is a very unfortunate experience.
My experience with my local leaders has been quite excellent.
They have shown great respect towards grievances I have shared with them.
Admittedly they have also been apologetic as there was little they saw they could do, but they were understanding. I didn't share this scripture with them, but based upon the spirit of our exchange I believe they would have had a much different response.
I continue to have great confidence in our local leaders.
I also believe very strongly in being graceful with them.
I sure wouldn't want to be put in their shoes under today's circumstances.

[Jim Kelley]

Here is a good story to consider about following Church leaders:

When I told my Stake President (six years ago) about being told by The Spirit to arise and go to my BofM and it then fell open to Mormon 8:38 and my eyes focused on “the holy church of God” and The Spirit caused my mind to instantly know and understand that was a direct reference to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints my Stake President immediately stated I was under the influence of contrary spirits and this was just exactly like when The Church was first started some of the brethren were receiving revelations from a crystal ball.

I asked if he was comparing the BofM to a crystal ball? No answer.

Also during this same meeting, with both of his councilors present, Stake President Thedell assured me Mormon Chapters Eight and Nine were written by Mormon and NOT Moroni. I advise him in Mormon 8:1 it says different and he would not read it for himself then but insisted he was right.

Months later when I brought up his folly he mocked me saying it was his word against mine he ever said that. Apparently he did read Mormon 8:1 later and discovered his err and was too proud to ever admit he could have been wrong.

So what am I to do? Follow known Church leader “hypocrites” who compare the BofM to a crystal ball or follow the Words of Jesus Christ in the BofM?

That is a very unfortunate experience.
My experience with my local leaders has been quite excellent.
They have shown great respect towards grievances I have shared with them.
Admittedly they have also been apologetic as there was little they saw they could do, but they were understanding. I didn't share this scripture with them, but based upon the spirit of our exchange I believe they would have had a much different response.
I continue to have great confidence in our local leaders.
I also believe very strongly in being graceful with them.
I sure wouldn't want to be put in their shoes under today's circumstances.

A-men to that.

I think local leaders for the most part are good and righteous men.

It is those secret Church Leadership Manuals that have polluted every branch, ward and stake (your churches, Mormon 8:36).

Those manuals set policy where anyone bringing up legitimate concerns and then will not take a no answer "shall" be punished.

What I mean by not taking a no answer is going to SLC for further light and knowledge on your own when there is no good local Church answer.

That usually ends up with SLC "copying" your letter to the stake president, a meeting and a lecture that most often makes no sense at all.

While meeting with my new Stake Presidency, Easter Sunday at 8:00 AM a year ago, I expressed my appreciation for their service and emphasized, "better you than me." We all had a little giggle about that.

The Church is still true but when untrue statements and doctrine come forth we as the Saints of God have a duty and right to question.

The G.A.s don't like that and will do their best to crush and be in opposition for the truth. That is just wrong!

Try this experiment: Go to your Bishop and Stake President with "the holy church of God" (Mormon 8:38) and ask them to inquire of their leadership which church this is? I predict you will get the runaround and some explanation this has nothing to do with your exaltation.

Considering these are the Words of Jesus Christ He personally had put in the BofM [and will personally and specifically ask the Saints about (Moroni 10:27)] it just may have everything to do with everyone's exaltation.

Bro. Jim

[A Random Phrase]

According to the Deseret News a rare and sudden tornado swept through downtown Salt Lake City, Utah, Wednesday, August 11, 1999, doing damage to the new LDS Conference Center while it was under construction.

I remember when that happened. It was cognitive dissonance for me that God did not completely protect the building that was under construction. I mentally tossed it aside (or on my shelf - do people even talk about shelves in the church nowadays?).

A few years ago, Col Flagg not only posted this, but posted a map of the tornado's path.

I ask, was this a warning shot over the bow from the Lord?

Some people think so.

[A Random Phrase]

That is the tornado that hit less than 24 hours prior to when I happened to be flying low in a small plane right over downtown Salt Lake and could survey the damage. It was extensive. It totally toppled at least one of the massive cranes used in the construction and debris was spread all over the place. ... I got to see it all with my own eyes.

Thanks for this. I didn't remember it toppling a crane. Somehow, I got the idea that it sideswiped it and didn't do much more than nick it (or something like that).

[A Random Phrase]

Tony, will you please describe how a servant becomes anointed, in your understandings? I would be greatly interested in your teachings on the subject.

The answer would be a good post for a new thread. It would be swallowed up in this thread.

[jwharton]

That is the tornado that hit less than 24 hours prior to when I happened to be flying low in a small plane right over downtown Salt Lake and could survey the damage. It was extensive. It totally toppled at least one of the massive cranes used in the construction and debris was spread all over the place. ... I got to see it all with my own eyes.

Thanks for this. I didn't remember it toppling a crane. Somehow, I got the idea that it sideswiped it and didn't do much more than nick it (or something like that).

It looked like it toppled it but I couldn't tell 100% for sure from the angle I saw it from. Also, there was so much debris strewn about that it was a bit hard to tell what things were supposed to be where. I do remember having quite an impression from the Spirit that the Lord wasn't pleased with this construction. This was all part of my awakening out of the spell of thinking "all is well in Zion".

[Jim Kelley]

That is the tornado that hit less than 24 hours prior to when I happened to be flying low in a small plane right over downtown Salt Lake and could survey the damage. It was extensive. It totally toppled at least one of the massive cranes used in the construction and debris was spread all over the place. ... I got to see it all with my own eyes.

Thanks for this. I didn't remember it toppling a crane. Somehow, I got the idea that it sideswiped it and didn't do much more than nick it (or something like that).

Yes one tower crane was broken in two.

Do a Google search for "Salt Lake City tornado 1999" and you will see a Deseret News link and there will be a lot of photos taken from above.

There is a Mormon story that President Young had the SLC Temple moved some from where it was originally going to be built because President Young received revelation from God there was a fault under where the Temple was originally going to be built.

Could this fault lie right under the City Creek Center Mall and The Conference Center?

If this is the case and there was an earthquake General Conference may start being held in the historic Tabernacle again.

If that did happen some will probably say, The Church leadership should have heeded the warning shot over the bow in 1999.

I do hope and pray no one would get hurt.

I don't know but time may tell.

Bro. Jim