The Polluted Holy Church Mormon Chapter 8

[superdan]

Preface to this thread:
Stating facts or belief about history and scripture is not criticism of the church. My purpose is simply to repent and leave Babylon behind. “One of the grand fundamental principles of Mormonism is to receive truth, let it come from where it may.” (Joseph Smith - 9 July 1843 (Sunday Morning), The Words of Joseph Smith)

There are several controversial topics relative to Mormon doctrine that seem to keep coming up on LDSFF. The discussion is ranging all over on the forum. I’ve started threads on some of these to centralize discussion if anyone desires to participate. Obviously my threads start with my bias which I believe to be true. I have no credentials other than that I am acutely aware of what we teach as a culture and I have been awakened by God to consider alternative perspective.

Here are the divisive topics if you feel inclined to comment on any of it. (I didn’t start all of these.)

The Transfigured Doctrine of Christ – 2 Nephi 31-32 (Mormon 8:33)
The Condemned Church D&C 84
The Polluted Holy Church Mormon Chapter 8
The Plainness of Isaiah

Priesthood Keys - Frederick
The Gentiles – ChicagoElder

The Polluted Holy Church Mormon Chapter 8
Moroni had just lost all that he held dear when he wrote the words in the last two chapters of Mormon (his father’s record). Moroni didn’t put the chapter break in there. The printer did. These comments should be taken as a whole. His bold confidence and deep sadness color his words. He has no idea how long he has left to live or where he will go. Mormon chapters eight and nine present some of the most stark and strident warnings in scripture. Who is he talking to?

In chapter nine Moroni addresses two specific groups, those who do not believe in Christ (Mormon 9:1) and those who deny revelations, prophecies, gifts, healings, speaking with tongues, and the interpretation of tongues (Mormon 9:7). Any mainstream Latter Day Saint might fall into either of these categories. We know this because he explains how to identify the believers. “And these signs shall follow them that believe—in my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; they shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick and they shall recover;” (Mormon 9:24) The continuing miracles are evidence of belief. God is unchanging. Either they are happening to the believers or we dwindle in unbelief. (Mormon 9:16-20)

Mormon chapter eight is directed squarely at the reader. I think it’s safe to say that there are very few other than the Latter Day Saints who read the Book of Mormon. Moroni’s words are not idle comments and prophecies for those who would not read the book. He reveals that he has seen our day and that we walk in pride and arrogance. “Behold, the Lord hath shown unto me great and marvelous things concerning that which must shortly come, at that day when these things shall come forth among you. Behold, I speak unto you as if ye were present, and yet ye are not. But behold, Jesus Christ hath shown you unto me, and I know your doing.” (Mormon 8:34-35) He didn’t identify any group when he started chapter 8 because he’s talking to you the reader of the record. None other. This is unambiguous. He calls you “YOU.” He may have seen YOU in this vision. Wake up!

Here is the key to identifying his audience more specifically. Moroni is talking to the people who simultaneously have his record, The Book of Mormon, among them (Mormon 8:26,34) and then pollute the holy church of God. (Mormon 8:38) Other hard to dispute facts are that those people live in a day of pollutions (Mormon 8:31) and great pride when the power of God is generally denied. (Mormon 8:28,36) They do not believe in the great miracles and have not seen them. (Mormon 8:26) This combination of attributes points directly at us, the modern church of Jesus Christ; the holy church; not some other denomination then or now. This absolutely describes us. That’s actually comforting because it is proof we are in the right church. How do we know? It’s the one Moroni described.

So how have we transfigured the holy word of God? (Mormon 8:33) Read this post. The Transfigured Doctrine of Christ – 2 Nephi 31-32 Mormon 8

[mes5464]

They do not believe in the great miracles and have not seen them. (Mormon 8:26)

I experienced this the awhile back when my elder's quorum president admitted to me that he didn't believe in the flood or creation.

I bore testimony to him that I know that these things happened as described in holy scripture. He seemed shocked that I take these accounts literally.

[laronius]

I'm not sure why it is that some feel compelled to label the LDS church as corrupt and gone astray. But to respond to the OP:

All through chapter 8 of Mormon it speaks about the "churches" (plural) that will exist at the time of the coming forth of the BofM. The LDS Church didn't even exist at the time. But to the extent that anyone (at that time or since then) is guilty of the sins spoken of in this chapter, regardless of religious affiliation, this chapter would apply to them. But I don't see any special condemnation of the Church in this chapter.

Chapter 9 begins: "And now, I speak also concerning those who do not believe in Christ."

To say that he was referring to the Church with this verse is not even a stretch. It's beyond a stretch. The title page of the BofM, which I believe was written by Mormon, states that it was written to the Lamanites and to the Jew and Gentile. So obviously they had everyone in mind when they wrote the BofM, not just Mormons. Chapter 8 speaks to those who profess a belief in Christ. Chapter 9 speaks to those who do not believe in Christ. Sounds like a good way to end the book that would eventually go to all the world. Of course Moroni would write some more once he realizes he has more time, but that was how he originally intended to end the book. Very fitting indeed.

[durangout]

You are of course correct here Laronius and this has been pointed out many times in the past. Certain people here feel they need to bring it up every so often to see who they can deceive. Its sad really.

[avidseeker]

The rest of the first paragraph of the title page:

"Wherefore, it is an abridgment of the record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites—Written to the Lamanites, who are a remnant of the house of Israel; and also to Jew and Gentile—Written by way of commandment, and also by the spirit of prophecy and of revelation—Written and sealed up, and hid up unto the Lord, that they might not be destroyed—To come forth by the gift and power of God unto the interpretation thereof—Sealed by the hand of Moroni, and hid up unto the Lord, to come forth in due time by way of the Gentile—The interpretation thereof by the gift of God."

[ajax]

Chapter 8 speaks to those who profess a belief in Christ.

Uh, that's us. Unless you're one of those non-Christian Mormons. Then move along to chap 9.

So, in any event,

If Chap 8 doesn't apply to us, and chapter 9 doesn't apply to us, what the hell does apply to us?

It's soooo awesome to eavesdrop on a conversation between a prophet and his readers about a group of people in trouble who don't even know it.

[laronius]

Chapter 8 speaks to those who profess a belief in Christ.

Uh, that's us. Unless you're one of those non-Christian Mormons. Then move along to chap 9.

So, in any event,

If Chap 8 doesn't apply to us, and chapter 9 doesn't apply to us, what the hell does apply to us?

It's soooo awesome to eavesdrop on a conversation between a prophet and his readers about a group of people in trouble who don't even know it.

Ajax, I made it abundantly clear in my post that to the degree any person is guilty of the sins mentioned in chapter 8 that chapter applies to them. Perhaps you missed that part. My overall point was that there is no justification in lumping the Church as a whole in that category. In fact, the entire chapter is about the conditions that will exist when the Lord restores his gospel again and brings forth the BofM. What good then is setting up a church to take these things to the world when it is no better than the ones being called to repent. You are essentially equating the church that God had just set up with all the other churches that existed at that time.

[boo]

I agree it doesn't make sense if Moroni's words are directed at Joseph and early church members, but I think a careful reading of the text shows that they aren't the readers Moroni had in mind. Look at v 34 and 35 of chapter 8 . First I think you will agree that Moroni was addressing people who he knew would read his words. No author writes to a group who he knows will never read what he has written. Further more Moroni says in v 35 that god has shown him the audience and he has crafted his words for that particular audience ie actual readers of his words not a group who was already dead before his words would come forth. Thus he must be talking to a group that was alive after 1830 and whose sins take place after that date. So Moroni's audience would be (1)readers of the book of Mormon and (2) who are committing the sins complained about after 1830. One of the sins was " polluting the holy church of god". As Savior taught Joseph in the first vision all the existent churches were already polluted by 1830 and so Moroni can not be talking to members of those churches. The holy church of god which readers of the Book of Mormon were polluting must be the LDS church. The chronology requires that conclusion and further requires that the pollution must occur after it was established ( since it was holy when established) in 1830. This is the only interpretation that does justice to the plain meaning of the words and the chronology. I don't particularly like this conclusion but I am sure that it is the conclusion Moroni intended. He sought to warn us, the modern day reader. If we try to escape by some other conclusion we are indeed " hypocrites" who have" transfigured the holy word of god" and will" bring damnation upon our souls" ( v33)

[superdan]

I don't particularly like this conclusion but I am sure that it is the conclusion Moroni intended. He sought to warn us, the modern day reader. If we try to escape by some other conclusion we are indeed " hypocrites" who have" transfigured the holy word of god" and will" bring damnation upon our souls" ( v33)

Thanks for restating that. Obviously I agree. I don't particularly like it either. But often the truth hurts.

[lemuel]

What is "the church"? Is it the brethren? The Correlation Dep't? The members?

Who is the "ye" that have polluted the holy church? I agree with superdan that Moroni wouldn't speak to people that lived over a thousand years ago and will never read the BoM, but I don't think Moroni is just talking to the leaders here. (The Book of Mormon isn't for the leaders, they have special handbooks that give greater guidance than the BoM :p )

I can only clean up the pollutions I have created. If my fellow members and/or the brethren have created pollutions, what is that to me?

[Franktalk]

Chapter 9 begins: "And now, I speak also concerning those who do not believe in Christ."

The question is what does it take for God to think you believe in Him? Do you listen to His voice or do you listen to the voice of man?

I have not heard the voice of God yet but the day is coming. On that day I will know for sure that God thinks I believe in Him. But before that day I am doing what I can to know Him. I follow the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit leads me to Jesus. Do not think this statement from Chapter 9 is some low bar that is easy to clear. Few if any make it in the eyes of God.

[Franktalk]

It's soooo awesome to eavesdrop on a conversation between a prophet and his readers about a group of people in trouble who don't even know it.

I want one of these know it alls to find a passage in the Old Testament where a prophet speaks to the gentiles about the problems with Israel.

[Thomas]

How much scripture does everyone need to ignore or explain away before they understand, God is not pleased with us!

Ether 4: 4 Behold, I have written upon these plates the very things which the brother of Jared saw; and there never were greater things made manifest than those which were made manifest unto the brother of Jared.

5 Wherefore the Lord hath commanded me to write them; and I have written them. And he commanded me that I should seal them up; and he also hath commanded that I should seal up the interpretation thereof; wherefore I have sealed up the interpreters, according to the commandment of the Lord.

6 For the Lord said unto me: They shall not go forth unto the Gentiles until the day that they shall repent of their iniquity, and become clean before the Lord.

7 And in that day that they shall exercise faith in me, saith the Lord, even as the brother of Jared did, that they may become sanctified in me, then will I manifest unto them the things which the brother of Jared saw, even to the unfolding unto them all my revelations, saith Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of the heavens and of the earth, and all things that in them are

We want to claim superior knowledge and claim to live by God's command but God will not reveal the greater things to us because of our iniquity. He has so much he would like to share with us but we will not repent. Of course, how can we repent. Perfect people have no need for repentance, do they. God thinks we are perfect. Those warnings are for the wicked right? We have the sealed portion of the plates right? It is just those dirty Gentiles, who don't have the sealed portion of the plates, right? We have been adopted in to the house of Israel so we must have the sealed portion, right?

[jo1952]

“And these signs shall follow them that believe—in my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; they shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick and they shall recover;”

Good grief. Even if some think that Moroni is not talking about us, it is clear that we aren't seeing the above. We have nothing to brag about in trying to say that Moroni was not pointing to us.

[Chicagoelder]

“And these signs shall follow them that believe—in my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; they shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick and they shall recover;”

Good grief. Even if some think that Moroni is not talking about us, it is clear that we aren't seeing the above. We have nothing to brag about in trying to say that Moroni was not pointing to us.

Speak for yourself as not seeing the above. I can attest to miracles that are still performed within this Church. As for the transfiguring the holy word of God that is talking about the plain and precious truths that were taken from the Bible. In the foot notes it even points to the apostasy of the early christian church.

[Frederick]

“And these signs shall follow them that believe—in my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; they shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick and they shall recover;”

Good grief. Even if some think that Moroni is not talking about us, it is clear that we aren't seeing the above. We have nothing to brag about in trying to say that Moroni was not pointing to us.

Speak for yourself as not seeing the above. I can attest to miracles that are still performed within this Church. As for the transfiguring the holy word of God that is talking about the plain and precious truths that were taken from the Bible. In the foot notes it even points to the apostasy of the early christian church.

It doesn't matter if miracles are performed within the church. It only matters if you yourself are seeing miracles, or angels, or if you yourself have seen the Lord. You cannot ride into heaven on the coat tails of other people's experiences. If you have not received knowledge yourself, you do not have faith. If you don't have faith, then awful is your state and you exist as if no redemption has been made for you. If miracles, angels, visions, etc... are not a part of your life, then you are in a state of apostasy.

Moroni was talking to those who belong to the holy church of God.

38 O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of God? Why are ye ashamed to take upon you the name of Christ? Why do ye not think that greater is the value of an endless happiness than that misery which never dies—because of the praise of the world? ( Mormon, Chapter 8)

For any of you who think that Moroni is not directly referencing the Latter Day Saints, think again. Which church would you describe as the holy church of God?

If you want to know how you stand before God, you need look no further than in the mirror. Are you seeing visions, having dreams, or receiving revelation, or having angels appear and minister to you? If you are not having these experiences, then you need to approach God and ask Him to bestow you with the gift of faith. Without faith, it is impossible to please God.

For there is a great difference between believing in God and knowing him—knowledge implies more than faith.
For where faith is, there will the knowledge of God be also, with all things which pertain thereto — revelations, visions, and dreams, as well as every necessary thing, in order that the possessors of faith may be perfected, and obtain salvation;

Only you will know if these things are a part of your life. If they are not, then turn to God and ask Him to fill you with His light that you may be able to be made whole and be partakers of the heavenly gift.

[keep the faith]

“And these signs shall follow them that believe—in my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; they shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick and they shall recover;”

Good grief. Even if some think that Moroni is not talking about us, it is clear that we aren't seeing the above. We have nothing to brag about in trying to say that Moroni was not pointing to us.

Speak for yourself as not seeing the above. I can attest to miracles that are still performed within this Church. As for the transfiguring the holy word of God that is talking about the plain and precious truths that were taken from the Bible. In the foot notes it even points to the apostasy of the early christian church.

I continue to be amazed at how those on this forum who claim there is a severe lack of spiritual gifts and spiritual occurrences happening within the church with its members have any way of really knowing that to be the case. It is as if those like jo1952 have a pulse on all active temple attending committed Latter Day Saints and can somehow see into all their personal spiritual lives and make judgments like they do. Just amazing. I wonder how they do it? #-o

[jbalm]

I can attest to miracles that are still performed within this Church.

Such as...?

[Thomas]

The sighted are turned into the blind?

[Frederick]

“And these signs shall follow them that believe—in my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; they shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick and they shall recover;”

Good grief. Even if some think that Moroni is not talking about us, it is clear that we aren't seeing the above. We have nothing to brag about in trying to say that Moroni was not pointing to us.

Speak for yourself as not seeing the above. I can attest to miracles that are still performed within this Church. As for the transfiguring the holy word of God that is talking about the plain and precious truths that were taken from the Bible. In the foot notes it even points to the apostasy of the early christian church.

I continue to be amazed at how those on this forum who claim there is a severe lack of spiritual gifts and spiritual occurrences happening within the church with its members have any way of really knowing that to be the case. It is as if those like jo1952 have a pulse on all active temple attending committed Latter Day Saints and can somehow see into all their personal spiritual lives and make judgments like they do. Just amazing. I wonder how they do it?

ktf,

Please see my comment above. If you have seen angels, visions, or seen into heaven, please share your testimony. If you haven't, do you think you can benefit from the experiences of those who have?

For anyone who has not seen what the scriptures describe as the fruits of faith, you are in a state of apostasy. Turn and face the Lord. Ask Him to fill you with His knowledge. Ask Him to make the experiences of the prophets who wrote the scriptures, your experiences. Nephi asked to see his father's vision. You should ask to see Lehi's vision if you haven't already done so.

For where faith is, there will the knowledge of God be also, with all things which pertain thereto — revelations, visions, and dreams, as well as every necessary thing, in order that the possessors of faith may be perfected, and obtain salvation;

[keep the faith]

“And these signs shall follow them that believe—in my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; they shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick and they shall recover;”

Good grief. Even if some think that Moroni is not talking about us, it is clear that we aren't seeing the above. We have nothing to brag about in trying to say that Moroni was not pointing to us.

Speak for yourself as not seeing the above. I can attest to miracles that are still performed within this Church. As for the transfiguring the holy word of God that is talking about the plain and precious truths that were taken from the Bible. In the foot notes it even points to the apostasy of the early christian church.

It doesn't matter if miracles are performed within the church. It only matters if you yourself are seeing miracles, or angels, or if you yourself have seen the Lord. You cannot ride into heaven on the coat tails of other people's experiences. If you have not received knowledge yourself, you do not have faith. If you don't have faith, then awful is your state and you exist as if no redemption has been made for you. If miracles, angels, visions, etc... are not a part of your life, then you are in a state of apostasy.

Moroni was talking to those who belong to the holy church of God.

38 O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of God? Why are ye ashamed to take upon you the name of Christ? Why do ye not think that greater is the value of an endless happiness than that misery which never dies—because of the praise of the world? ( Mormon, Chapter 8)

For any of you who think that Moroni is not directly referencing the Latter Day Saints, think again. Which church would you describe as the holy church of God?

If you want to know how you stand before God, you need look no further than in the mirror. Are you seeing visions, having dreams, or receiving revelation, or having angels appear and minister to you? If you are not having these experiences, then you need to approach God and ask Him to bestow you with the gift of faith. Without faith, it is impossible to please God.

For there is a great difference between believing in God and knowing him—knowledge implies more than faith.
For where faith is, there will the knowledge of God be also, with all things which pertain thereto — revelations, visions, and dreams, as well as every necessary thing, in order that the possessors of faith may be perfected, and obtain salvation;

Only you will know if these things are a part of your life. If they are not, then turn to God and ask Him to fill you with His light that you may be able to be made whole and be partakers of the heavenly gift.

I have already gone into detail before in covering why Mormon 8 is being taken out of context by those like Frederick and others here who love to assign all of Moroni's wrath to the church and its leadership today. In fact I think I covered this specifically with Frederick and Thomas in another thread if I am not mistaken. I am beginning to think that some people here have no real desire to discover the context in what and who Moroni was referring to in Mormon 8 and 9 but just want to beat the church leaders and its membership over the head with Moroni's stinging rebuke regardless of who he was referencing in his call to repentance. Seems to me there is an agenda going on here where some are trying to push the idea that the church and its Prophets have gone astray and are no longer in good standing with The Lord. Then again maybe I am just imagining all this because of my bad past experience with others in the past using these same techniques. I guess that s for everyone to determine for themselves. My spiny senses are tingling a bit I must admit but who knows..

[Thomas]

So why do we not have the sealed portion of the plates, Keep the Faith? I would say your explanations fall far short of being plausible.

[Frederick]

I have already gone into detail before in covering why Mormon 8 is being taken out of context by those like Frederick and others here who love to assign all of Moroni's wrath to the church and its leadership today. In fact I think I covered this specifically with Frederick and Thomas in another thread if I am not mistaken. I am beginning to think that some people here have no real desire to discover the context in what and who Moroni was referring to in Mormon 8 and 9 but just want to beat the church leaders and its membership over the head with Moroni's stinging rebuke regardless of who he was referencing in his call to repentance. Seems to me there is an agenda going on here where some are trying to push the idea that the church and its Prophets have gone astray and are no longer in good standing with The Lord. Then again maybe I am just imagining all this because of my bad past experience with others in the past using these same techniques. I guess that s for everyone to determine for themselves. My spiny senses are tingling a bit I must admit but who knows..

ktf,

I asked you some specific questions. Actually, this is the second time very recently that I asked you specific questions to which you've not even attempted to respond.

I haven't said one word about our leaders. I spoke about you. If the fruits of faith are not present in your life, you are in a state of apostasy. It doesn't matter where the rest if the church is. It only matters where you are.

I also referenced Moroni. Moroni was specifically speaking to Latter Day Saints. I have yet to hear anyone here explain who Moroni was referencing when he said we were polluting the holy church of God, if they think that the holy church of God is someone else besides the Latter Day Saints.

Moroni was speaking to those who are polluting the holy church of God. Who might be considered to be a member of the holy church of God?

[boo]

This is obviously a complex issue. On the one hand I can tell you that I have seen and know that miracles do happen today where there is sufficient faith just as Moroni promised in the 7th chapter of his book. I personally have quite literally observed the deaf made to hear and the blind made to see and the crippled made to walk. I can show you the medical records attesting to this. I can also tell you of multiple people i know personally who have seen angels and had them administer to them,On the other hand this Sunday in Sunday School the instructor who is a wonderful guy and has been a bishop twice and is an adult convert to the church spoke about spiritual manifestations in Kirtland and plaintively asked why didn't they happen today. The entire class mourned for the lack of spiritual power in the church. I rhetorically asked what would happen if someone got up in testimony meeting and said he had seen an angel
The rest of the group were quick to say that everyone would think he was crazy. Modernity has created a level of skepticism and unbelief that is poisonous to faith . The great failure of the church institutionally as I see it is that rather than encouraging seeking after true spiritual gifts it implicitly and sometimes explicitly discourages those would seek these things and then pretends there is no problem.

[jo1952]

“And these signs shall follow them that believe—in my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; they shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick and they shall recover;”

Good grief. Even if some think that Moroni is not talking about us, it is clear that we aren't seeing the above. We have nothing to brag about in trying to say that Moroni was not pointing to us.

Speak for yourself as not seeing the above. I can attest to miracles that are still performed within this Church. As for the transfiguring the holy word of God that is talking about the plain and precious truths that were taken from the Bible. In the foot notes it even points to the apostasy of the early christian church.

There are just as many minor miracles going on outside of the Church as inside. In fact, I have seen evidence of more healing of the sick from outside of the Church, as well as the casting out of devils; actually all of the things mentioned above are seen more often outside of the Church. We are seeing nothing like was seen in the ancient church, in the church of the Nephites which Christ formed, or in the early Restored Church. We simply are not. Why do we try so desparately to kid ourselves? God knows the truth of it; even when we refuse to see it.