The Polluted Holy Church Mormon Chapter 8

[gclayjr]

Mark, all

"Of an immediate necessity is for the sake of widows and their deceased sealed husbands, these widows should be allowed to be received as a plural wife so that they can be joined to a good, noble and worthy husband while that husband is also allowed to be married to another woman to whom he can also be sealed for time and eternity."

Having a bit of a math background, there is something that I don't understand. When you look at societies where polygamy is practiced, such as in Islam, you find that there are a few very rich successful men who enjoy harems of various sizes, and streets full of impoverished men who seek out harlots, because there are no women for them. In all of these societies women are abused property, and less successful men are losers.

I understand plural marriage being necessary, when there is a great surplus of worthy women and a great shortage of worthy men. It seems that while there are some differences in the birthrate between boys and girls, it is slight. I know that there are somewhat more women who live righteously than men, is there really the numbers there to justify men having many wives?

It is my understanding that the Lord only approves of plural marriage in special circumstances such as war, famine and other hardships where there is a great shortage of men, and a surplus of women.

So in regards to your thought above, shouldn't those worthy women look for the opportunity to marry worthy widowers, or single men of enough character to not be put off by that Mormon phenomenon of "Temple widow", and know that if he cares for his "temple widow" wife, things will work out in the hereafter, and he will have an eternal partner?


Regards,

George Clay

[freedomforall]

Mark, all

"Of an immediate necessity is for the sake of widows and their deceased sealed husbands, these widows should be allowed to be received as a plural wife so that they can be joined to a good, noble and worthy husband while that husband is also allowed to be married to another woman to whom he can also be sealed for time and eternity."

Having a bit of a math background, there is something that I don't understand. When you look at societies where polygamy is practiced, such as in Islam, you find that there are a few very rich successful men who enjoy harems of various sizes, and streets full of impoverished men who seek out harlots, because there are no women for them. In all of these societies women are abused property, and less successful men are losers.

I understand plural marriage being necessary, when there is a great surplus of worthy women and a great shortage of worthy men. It seems that while there are some differences in the birthrate between boys and girls, it is slight. I know that there are somewhat more women who live righteously than men, is there really the numbers there to justify men having many wives?

It is my understanding that the Lord only approves of plural marriage in special circumstances such as war, famine and other hardships where there is a great shortage of men, and a surplus of women.

So in regards to your thought above, shouldn't those worthy women look for the opportunity to marry worthy widowers, or single men of enough character to not be put off by that Mormon phenomenon of "Temple widow", and know that if he cares for his "temple widow" wife, things will work out in the hereafter, and he will have an eternal partner?
Regards,

George Clay

Jacob 2
22 And now I make an end of speaking unto you concerning this pride. And were it not that I must speak unto you concerning a grosser crime, my heart would rejoice exceedingly because of you.

23 But the word of God burdens me because of your grosser crimes. For behold, thus saith the Lord: This people begin to wax in iniquity; they understand not the scriptures, for they seek to excuse themselves in committing whoredoms, because of the things which were written concerning David, and Solomon his son.

24 Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord.

25 Wherefore, thus saith the Lord, I have led this people forth out of the land of Jerusalem, by the power of mine arm, that I might raise up unto me a righteous branch from the fruit of the loins of Joseph.

26 Wherefore, I the Lord God will not suffer that this people shall do like unto them of old.

27 Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife; and concubines he shall have none;

28 For I, the Lord God, delight in the chastity of women. And whoredoms are an abomination before me; thus saith the Lord of Hosts.

29 Wherefore, this people shall keep my commandments, saith the Lord of Hosts, or cursed be the land for their sakes.

30 For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.

31 For behold, I, the Lord, have seen the sorrow, and heard the mourning of the daughters of my people in the land of Jerusalem, yea, and in all the lands of my people, because of the wickedness and abominations of their husbands.

Get it now? Polygamy is only allowed when God commands it. Human conditions has little to do with it.

[gclayjr]

freedomforall,

Polygamy is only allowed when God commands it. Human conditions has little to do with it.

I agree! I was only suggesting what historical situations in which God might do this. Of course the bottom line is that we do what God wills when he wills it.

I was also suggesting that there are other options for "temple widows", than loneliness or plural marriage.

I was also noting that the math doesn't seem to suggest that even in a celestial world, that many men could actually have multiple wives even if plural marriage is an accepted form of celestial marriage.

Regards,

George Clay

[freedomforall]

freedomforall,

Polygamy is only allowed when God commands it. Human conditions has little to do with it.

I agree! I was only suggesting what historical situations in which God might do this. Of course the bottom line is that we do what God wills when he wills it.

I was also suggesting that there are other options for "temple widows", than loneliness or plural marriage.

I was also noting that the math doesn't seem to suggest that even in a celestial world, that many men could actually have multiple wives even if plural marriage is an accepted form of celestial marriage.

Regards,

George Clay

Good point. It is not up to me to say what or how God will do things as he sees fit.

[AI2.0]

My responses in blue:

No, I won't. Women's problems are not solved by marrying them off to some other man, being treated like chattel.

Any woman who doesn't want such should not be forced to, but she should also not expect to hold out her hand to others if she rejects this.
The Father's Kingdom uses the Family structure to address the welfare needs of widows and orphans because it is a Patriarchal system.
You need to realize that you are actually striking at the very heart of what Heavenly Father's Kingdom is all about.Polygamy is NOT the heart of Heavenly Father's kingdom, it is an earthly construct, at times necessary for the Lord to fulfill his will for us and it is temporary. Monogamy is the ideal, it is the most stable and best for raising children and having a loving, strong, intimate family. I know, I am a product of good polygamous marriages but I know that they were not all sunshine and roses. It was a sacrifice to live in plural marriage--for the husband, the wives and the children. My great grandmother went into the marriage knowing that her husband would never love her the way he loved his first wife, but she accepted it because he was a great man--but things better change in the next life, because I think she deserves to be loved and cherished, not just one of many. My great grandfather had 50 children and they loved him dearly but were separated from him most of the time because of his overwhelming family, work and church obligations. My grandfather once complained that he had to make an appointment to see his father. This is not pleasing to the Lord, but it is, at times, in our mortal existence, unavoidable, to have less than perfect family situations in this life. I am CERTAIN a loving Heavenly Father has no intention of continuing dissatisfying, distant familial relationships and so we can expect that these kinds of marriages will be the exception rather than the rule.

If you cripple the family from being able to adapt to and accommodate the needs of widows and orphans then you are opening the door to socialism/communism. The doctrine of plural marriage is linked in a very significant way with having a minimalist government that only focuses on protecting our individual rights and sovereignty.This is ridiculous and it is pushing an earthly solution and trying to make it fit in an eternal world. Not going to happen. Our day and age, widows aren't dependent on the government--they can go to school! They can work and make more money than men. If a husband dies, there are ways to care for the family needs without offering up the woman to some man to take in. There is no need for a woman to have to end up in some man's bed in order to make sure she and her children are fed and clothed. You talk like we're still in the 19th century or in Oman or Yemen!

You should also know better than to accuse me of saying women are just chattel. That's an utterly low blow that is uncalled for.
I said the men who were to receive the plural wives were to be good and honorable men, not chauvinistic creeps as you aptly are wary of.I dont care what you think, I think men who push polygamy in this day and age are usually critical of women's rights and want control. If that's not you, then you are an exception. That definitely describes fundamentalist Mormons who pressure women into polygamous unions. And why? Because they crave power and prestige in the world to come. And sometimes, they just don't want to be relegated to only being able to have relations with one woman. Once again, they aren't needed. There's no reason women should be pressured into polygamous marriages because their husbands die or they are divorced, there are many ways to care for one's temporal needs. And as for children, there are many single people who don't end up having children, there are many couples who can't have children--we don't insist that they go out and have surrogates bare children for them. We accept that God's plans are different for each of us and may not be what we would have chosen for themselves.

Are you going to stand there and take the arrogant position that a woman should be forbidden and punished as a criminal if a solid and loving family was willing to receive her into their household with the full dignity of a wife?What are you talking about?? She doesn't have the right to intrude on another family when it is FORBIDDEN by God. Those who enter polygamous marriages are committing adultery, and rightly excommunicated from the church.

I'm not one who pines for the 'good old days' when men held all the power over their women and children--who were viewed as property. I don't like that kind of treatment in this life, and I don't expect to see it in the next.

Neither am I for continuing the false notion that patriarchy is just a man's thing.
A Patriarch is a man and a woman joined in union and who function as "one flesh".
Only a fool of a man and a fool of a woman would allow it to be a domination game.

But, thank you for being honest and admitting that you sympathize and hope for the return of polygamy and this is one reason you are condemning of our church leaders. Now I know exactly where you are coming from.

I consider this manner of speaking to me to be extremely rude and uncalled for.

I didn't think I was rude at all. I was sincere in thanking you for being honest. All right, you don't like me saying I know exactly where you are coming from, I'll say I've got a pretty good idea. You are what I call a fundamentalist. You don't like the changes that have been made in the church and you see them as proof that the church is not being led properly. I have some ideas about your situation, but won't ask you to clarify, but I think it's safe to say, that you do feel that the church was wrong to stop practicing polygamy and you feel that for us to set things right, we must do so again. And here's the problem, I disagree with you completely. I think the worst thing in the world would be for the church to allow polygamy again--because the men today would not handle it well--heck they can't even keep from looking at pornography, and just wait till the technology becomes affordable for men to have relations in virtual 3D or with robots--it will only be worse. We need to tighten and lift our standards and worthiness, rather than lower it. Men need to be strict in their fidelity to one wife, that means in actions and in thoughts. That is how they become worthy priesthood holders--those who can call down the powers of heaven to bless others. And as the world becomes more wicked, they will need to be clean in their thoughts, their actions and commit themselves to one wife. That is how they will live a standard that is completely above the depraved, worldly standards we live in today. No way polygamy has any place in the LDS family of today.

[rewcox]

My responses in blue:

No, I won't. Women's problems are not solved by marrying them off to some other man, being treated like chattel.

Any woman who doesn't want such should not be forced to, but she should also not expect to hold out her hand to others if she rejects this.
The Father's Kingdom uses the Family structure to address the welfare needs of widows and orphans because it is a Patriarchal system.
You need to realize that you are actually striking at the very heart of what Heavenly Father's Kingdom is all about.Polygamy is NOT the heart of Heavenly Father's kingdom, it is an earthly construct, at times necessary for the Lord to fulfill his will for us and it is temporary. Monogamy is the ideal, it is the most stable and best for raising children and having a loving, strong, intimate family. I know, I am a product of good polygamous marriages but I know that they were not all sunshine and roses. It was a sacrifice to live in plural marriage--for the husband, the wives and the children. My great grandmother went into the marriage knowing that her husband would never love her the way he loved his first wife, but she accepted it because he was a great man--but things better change in the next life, because I think she deserves to be loved and cherished, not just one of many. My great grandfather had 50 children and they loved him dearly but were separated from him most of the time because of his overwhelming family, work and church obligations. My grandfather once complained that he had to make an appointment to see his father. This is not pleasing to the Lord, but it is, at times, in our mortal existence, unavoidable, to have less than perfect family situations in this life. I am CERTAIN a loving Heavenly Father has no intention of continuing dissatisfying, distant familial relationships and so we can expect that these kinds of marriages will be the exception rather than the rule.

If you cripple the family from being able to adapt to and accommodate the needs of widows and orphans then you are opening the door to socialism/communism. The doctrine of plural marriage is linked in a very significant way with having a minimalist government that only focuses on protecting our individual rights and sovereignty.This is ridiculous and it is pushing an earthly solution and trying to make it fit in an eternal world. Not going to happen. Our day and age, widows aren't dependent on the government--they can go to school! They can work and make more money than men. If a husband dies, there are ways to care for the family needs without offering up the woman to some man to take in. There is no need for a woman to have to end up in some man's bed in order to make sure she and her children are fed and clothed. You talk like we're still in the 19th century or in Oman or Yemen!

You should also know better than to accuse me of saying women are just chattel. That's an utterly low blow that is uncalled for.
I said the men who were to receive the plural wives were to be good and honorable men, not chauvinistic creeps as you aptly are wary of.I dont care what you think, I think men who push polygamy in this day and age are usually critical of women's rights and want control. If that's not you, then you are an exception. That definitely describes fundamentalist Mormons who pressure women into polygamous unions. And why? Because they crave power and prestige in the world to come. And sometimes, they just don't want to be relegated to only being able to have relations with one woman. Once again, they aren't needed. There's no reason women should be pressured into polygamous marriages because their husbands die or they are divorced, there are many ways to care for one's temporal needs. And as for children, there are many single people who don't end up having children, there are many couples who can't have children--we don't insist that they go out and have surrogates bare children for them. We accept that God's plans are different for each of us and may not be what we would have chosen for themselves.

Are you going to stand there and take the arrogant position that a woman should be forbidden and punished as a criminal if a solid and loving family was willing to receive her into their household with the full dignity of a wife?What are you talking about?? She doesn't have the right to intrude on another family when it is FORBIDDEN by God. Those who enter polygamous marriages are committing adultery, and rightly excommunicated from the church.

I'm not one who pines for the 'good old days' when men held all the power over their women and children--who were viewed as property. I don't like that kind of treatment in this life, and I don't expect to see it in the next.

Neither am I for continuing the false notion that patriarchy is just a man's thing.
A Patriarch is a man and a woman joined in union and who function as "one flesh".
Only a fool of a man and a fool of a woman would allow it to be a domination game.

But, thank you for being honest and admitting that you sympathize and hope for the return of polygamy and this is one reason you are condemning of our church leaders. Now I know exactly where you are coming from.

I consider this manner of speaking to me to be extremely rude and uncalled for.

I didn't think I was rude at all. I was sincere in thanking you for being honest. All right, you don't like me saying I know exactly where you are coming from, I'll say I've got a pretty good idea. You are what I call a fundamentalist. You don't like the changes that have been made in the church and you see them as proof that the church is not being led properly. I have some ideas about your situation, but won't ask you to clarify, but I think it's safe to say, that you do feel that the church was wrong to stop practicing polygamy and you feel that for us to set things right, we must do so again. And here's the problem, I disagree with you completely. I think the worst thing in the world would be for the church to allow polygamy again--because the men today would not handle it well--heck they can't even keep from looking at pornography, and just wait till the technology becomes affordable for men to have relations in virtual 3D or with robots--it will only be worse. We need to tighten and lift our standards and worthiness, rather than lower it. Men need to be strict in their fidelity to one wife, that means in actions and in thoughts. That is how they become worthy priesthood holders--those who can call down the powers of heaven to bless others. And as the world becomes more wicked, they will need to be clean in their thoughts, their actions and commit themselves to one wife. That is how they will live a standard that is completely above the depraved, worldly standards we live in today. No way polygamy has any place in the LDS family of today.

Anytime we have veeriations, it is interesting to see a scripture that supports the Church and leaders. How can they deny, it's from Christ through Joseph Smith!

D&C 52
36 Let them labor with their families, declaring none other things than the prophets and apostles, that which they have seen and heard and most assuredly believe, that the prophecies may be fulfilled.

[jwharton]

jwharton said:
"Of an immediate necessity is for the sake of widows and their deceased sealed husbands, these widows should be allowed to be received as a plural wife so that they can be joined to a good, noble and worthy husband while that husband is also allowed to be married to another woman to whom he can also be sealed for time and eternity."

You finally flushed jwhartons misguided polygamy paradigm out for all to see.

I would have gladly come right out and said this, had someone just asked.

I suspect he/she lives in either Manti or Colorado City truth be told.

Nope. I actually detest the current day FLDS.
They wouldn't like what I would have to say to them either.

Jwharton outright rejects our Prophets today and feels they are misguided in their position concerning the disallowance of the practice of plural marriage in the church today. It all makes sense now. Pres. Kimball had a great quote about the jwhartons of today.

"Even in the Church many are prone to garnish the sepulchres of yesterday’s prophets and mentally stone the living ones".

I do not outright reject the current leaders.
I uphold them with my faith, confidence and prayers within the bounds the Lord prescribes.
While I do have some grievances based upon my reading of what I believe are binding oracles,
the Lord hasn't instructed me to attempt to raise up a controversy, which would be within my right.

The problem you have with me is I take the oracles seriously and seek to have fidelity to them.

[jwharton]

My responses in blue:

No, I won't. Women's problems are not solved by marrying them off to some other man, being treated like chattel.

Any woman who doesn't want such should not be forced to, but she should also not expect to hold out her hand to others if she rejects this.
The Father's Kingdom uses the Family structure to address the welfare needs of widows and orphans because it is a Patriarchal system.
You need to realize that you are actually striking at the very heart of what Heavenly Father's Kingdom is all about.Polygamy is NOT the heart of Heavenly Father's kingdom, it is an earthly construct, at times necessary for the Lord to fulfill his will for us and it is temporary. Monogamy is the ideal, it is the most stable and best for raising children and having a loving, strong, intimate family. I know, I am a product of good polygamous marriages but I know that they were not all sunshine and roses. It was a sacrifice to live in plural marriage--for the husband, the wives and the children. My great grandmother went into the marriage knowing that her husband would never love her the way he loved his first wife, but she accepted it because he was a great man--but things better change in the next life, because I think she deserves to be loved and cherished, not just one of many. My great grandfather had 50 children and they loved him dearly but were separated from him most of the time because of his overwhelming family, work and church obligations. My grandfather once complained that he had to make an appointment to see his father. This is not pleasing to the Lord, but it is, at times, in our mortal existence, unavoidable, to have less than perfect family situations in this life. I am CERTAIN a loving Heavenly Father has no intention of continuing dissatisfying, distant familial relationships and so we can expect that these kinds of marriages will be the exception rather than the rule.

If you cripple the family from being able to adapt to and accommodate the needs of widows and orphans then you are opening the door to socialism/communism. The doctrine of plural marriage is linked in a very significant way with having a minimalist government that only focuses on protecting our individual rights and sovereignty.This is ridiculous and it is pushing an earthly solution and trying to make it fit in an eternal world. Not going to happen. Our day and age, widows aren't dependent on the government--they can go to school! They can work and make more money than men. If a husband dies, there are ways to care for the family needs without offering up the woman to some man to take in. There is no need for a woman to have to end up in some man's bed in order to make sure she and her children are fed and clothed. You talk like we're still in the 19th century or in Oman or Yemen!

You should also know better than to accuse me of saying women are just chattel. That's an utterly low blow that is uncalled for.
I said the men who were to receive the plural wives were to be good and honorable men, not chauvinistic creeps as you aptly are wary of.I dont care what you think, I think men who push polygamy in this day and age are usually critical of women's rights and want control. If that's not you, then you are an exception. That definitely describes fundamentalist Mormons who pressure women into polygamous unions. And why? Because they crave power and prestige in the world to come. And sometimes, they just don't want to be relegated to only being able to have relations with one woman. Once again, they aren't needed. There's no reason women should be pressured into polygamous marriages because their husbands die or they are divorced, there are many ways to care for one's temporal needs. And as for children, there are many single people who don't end up having children, there are many couples who can't have children--we don't insist that they go out and have surrogates bare children for them. We accept that God's plans are different for each of us and may not be what we would have chosen for themselves.

Are you going to stand there and take the arrogant position that a woman should be forbidden and punished as a criminal if a solid and loving family was willing to receive her into their household with the full dignity of a wife?What are you talking about?? She doesn't have the right to intrude on another family when it is FORBIDDEN by God. Those who enter polygamous marriages are committing adultery, and rightly excommunicated from the church.

I'm not one who pines for the 'good old days' when men held all the power over their women and children--who were viewed as property. I don't like that kind of treatment in this life, and I don't expect to see it in the next.

Neither am I for continuing the false notion that patriarchy is just a man's thing.
A Patriarch is a man and a woman joined in union and who function as "one flesh".
Only a fool of a man and a fool of a woman would allow it to be a domination game.

But, thank you for being honest and admitting that you sympathize and hope for the return of polygamy and this is one reason you are condemning of our church leaders. Now I know exactly where you are coming from.

I consider this manner of speaking to me to be extremely rude and uncalled for.

I didn't think I was rude at all. I was sincere in thanking you for being honest. All right, you don't like me saying I know exactly where you are coming from, I'll say I've got a pretty good idea. You are what I call a fundamentalist. You don't like the changes that have been made in the church and you see them as proof that the church is not being led properly. I have some ideas about your situation, but won't ask you to clarify, but I think it's safe to say, that you do feel that the church was wrong to stop practicing polygamy and you feel that for us to set things right, we must do so again. And here's the problem, I disagree with you completely. I think the worst thing in the world would be for the church to allow polygamy again--because the men today would not handle it well--heck they can't even keep from looking at pornography, and just wait till the technology becomes affordable for men to have relations in virtual 3D or with robots--it will only be worse. We need to tighten and lift our standards and worthiness, rather than lower it. Men need to be strict in their fidelity to one wife, that means in actions and in thoughts. That is how they become worthy priesthood holders--those who can call down the powers of heaven to bless others. And as the world becomes more wicked, they will need to be clean in their thoughts, their actions and commit themselves to one wife. That is how they will live a standard that is completely above the depraved, worldly standards we live in today. No way polygamy has any place in the LDS family of today.

Anytime we have veeriations, it is interesting to see a scripture that supports the Church and leaders. How can they deny, it's from Christ through Joseph Smith!

D&C 52
36 Let them labor with their families, declaring none other things than the prophets and apostles, that which they have seen and heard and most assuredly believe, that the prophecies may be fulfilled.

I disagree with much of what is said above and don't feel like it is really on the mark where I am concerned.
But, even though I do my best to be clear and respectful, people are going to do what they are going to do.
My sense is it would not be time and energy well invested to try and address things with you here.
However, if there is any particular point you do wish for me to address, please let me know and I will.

[marc]

BUMP

How did this old topic age? Who remembers L Tom Perry's talk back in 1992. It is now thirty years later and what does Utah look like now? What does the church look like now compared to back then? Listen to/read his talk here: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... s?lang=eng

Mormon 8 is more relevant than ever. Remember the two eights: Mormon 8 and Ether 8.

Mormon 8:34 Behold, the Lord hath shown unto me great and marvelous things concerning that which must shortly come, at that day when these things shall come forth among you.

35 Behold, I speak unto you as if ye were present, and yet ye are not. But behold, Jesus Christ hath shown you unto me, and I know your doing.

36 And I know that ye do walk in the pride of your hearts; and there are none save a few only who do not lift themselves up in the pride of their hearts, unto the wearing of very fine apparel, unto envying, and strifes, and malice, and persecutions, and all manner of iniquities; and your churches, yea, even every one, have become polluted because of the pride of your hearts.

37 For behold, ye do love money, and your substance, and your fine apparel, and the adorning of your churches, more than ye love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted.

38 O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of God? Why are ye ashamed to take upon you the name of Christ? Why do ye not think that greater is the value of an endless happiness than that misery which never dies—because of the praise of the world?

39 Why do ye adorn yourselves with that which hath no life, and yet suffer the hungry, and the needy, and the naked, and the sick and the afflicted to pass by you, and notice them not?

40 Yea, why do ye build up your secret abominations to get gain, and cause that widows should mourn before the Lord, and also orphans to mourn before the Lord, and also the blood of their fathers and their husbands to cry unto the Lord from the ground, for vengeance upon your heads?

41 Behold, the sword of vengeance hangeth over you; and the time soon cometh that he avengeth the blood of the saints upon you, for he will not suffer their cries any longer.

Icing on the cake:

[BuriedTartaria]

BUMP

How did this old topic age?

Good idea to bump this thread. The Book of Mormon looks more prophetic than ever. TCOJCOLDS looks less inspired and more polluted than ever. There is a growing movement rethinking the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon needing to be connected to the truthfulness of the message of TCOJCOLDS. It feels like a Christian awakening is happening over the world and it's touching believers of the Book of Mormon and waking them up truth as well

[marc]

Yup. I've created dozens of posts in the last ten years, sharing many uncomfortable truths. I was essentially labeled a spiritual extremist. I'm not so extreme nowadays, though, not anymore.

[Robin Hood]

I think Moroni's choice of words is interesting. He says the church has been polluted... not destroyed.
In a way this gives us a reason to have hope. As far as I can tell he doesn't appear to prophesy of the church's destruction or complete apostasy even though he "see's our doings".
I believe this ties in with D&C 85 where we find the prophecy of the OM&S. He is described as setting in order the house of God, not re-establishing or restoring it.
So there is some hope.

Bro. Brigham is quoted as saying the people will be led to the very brink of hell by their leaders. Enter the OM&S at that point to save the day.
It's going to be a rough ride as the pollutions within the church multiply, but we will get through it so long as we are focused on God and not on the arm of flesh.

[SPIRIT]

I think Moroni's choice of words is interesting. He says the church has been polluted... not destroyed.
In a way this gives us a reason to have hope. As far as I can tell he doesn't appear to prophesy of the church's destruction or complete apostasy even though he "see's our doings".
I believe this ties in with D&C 85 where we find the prophecy of the OM&S. He is described as setting in order the house of God, not re-establishing or restoring it.
So there is some hope.

not according to Isaiah, and many many other scriptures.

you can't just take this one scripture out of text, and adjust it to the way you want -
"He says the church has been polluted... not destroyed."
when - for example Isaiah 28, speaks of The "Drunkards of Ephraim! " (church leaders)
Isa. 28 "Ephraim and its prophets reap disaster for being delusional and for rejecting divine revelation."
and how the Lord will hurl them to the ground.

Isaiah 28
2 My Lord has in store one mighty and strong: as a ravaging hailstorm sweeping down,
or like an inundating deluge of mighty waters, he will hurl them to the ground by his hand.

The imagery of “a ravaging hailstorm sweeping down” and of “an inundating deluge of mighty waters”
identifies the king of Assyria/Babylon and his alliance of aggressor nations (Isaiah 8:7-8; 17:12; 18:2).

Although Jehovah provides a refuge for a repentant remnant of his people against the storms of their enemies
(Isaiah 4:6; 25:4-5; 57:13), he empowers the archtyrant—
Jehovah’s (left) hand—over “the drunkards of Ephraim” to cast their illustriousness to the ground


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viewtopic.php?f=1&t=55396&p=1037704&hil ... h#p1037704

"The Book of Mormon comes forth to try the Gentiles' faith:
it contains but the "lesser part" of Jesus' words to the Nephites.(3 Nephi 26:8).
If the Gentiles will believe that portion - the Book of Mormon -
the Lord will manifest to them the greater things also.(3 Nephi 26:9).
The Book of Mormon, the record of a fallen people, contains warnings to the Gentiles: Moroni adds to the Book of Mormon a brief history of the Jaredites, addressing his abridgment specifically to the Gentiles.(Eth. 2:11).
He interrupts his account four times to speak directly to the them. (Eth. 2:9-12; 4:6-5; 8:23-26; 12:6-41).
Moroni has seen the Gentiles in a vision.(Morm 8:35). He tells them, therefore, things they should know.
The nation that does not serve God will be swept off the land. (Eth 2:9-10).
The Gentiles should repent and become clean before the Lord. (Eth. 4:6).
They should not allow secret combinations to get above them. (Eth 8:23-25).
They must exercise faith as did the ancients. (Eth. 12:6-31).
They must have hope and charity. (Eth.12:36-37).

Two consecutive histories of fallen peoples on this land fore-warn
the Gentiles of their own imminent fate. (Eth. 2:11; 8:21-26).
Mormon has vividly described the destruction of the Nephites. (Morm. 6:1-22).
Now Moroni recounts the destruction of the Jaredites in order to persuade
the Gentiles to repent. (Eth. 2:11; 8:23)."

[SPIRIT]

The Book of Mormon contains less than a hundredth part of Jesus' words to the Nephites. Yet, in the last days, the fullness of Jesus' words comes forth to the Gentiles in accordance with the servant's mission.
The plates of Nephi contain the greater part of what Jesus taught the people.
They, therefore, are among the "other books" to come forth. They "make known to all kindreds, tongues, and people, that the Lamb of God is the Son of the Eternal Father, and the Savior of the world".
They make known also the folly and abominations of the Gentiles.
Prophecies about the Gentiles in the latter days thus show two facets.
Those Gentiles who are under condemnation- which causes the Lord to withhold from them the greater things- will remain under condemnation if they do not repent.
For that reason, the Gentiles must turn from their evil ways.
Those Gentiles who make their calling and election sure, to whom the Lord reveals the greater things, do not, of course, represent all the Gentiles.
In the latter days, the gospel turns first to the Gentiles.
But when many of them reject it, the gospel turns to the Jews and other natural lineages of Israel.

***Moroni saw that many Gentiles would mock the Brother of Jared's vision.
Moroni writes that vision in the sealed portion of the Book of Mormon.
Many Gentiles too, will not believe the great and marvelous work - will not believe the words of Christ.
Of the words of Christ coming forth in the day, the Gentiles will say, "A Bible!, A Bible! We have got a Bible, and there cannot be any more Bible".
The Words of Christ and the Brother of Jared's vision cover the entire history of humanity. In that respect, they resemble the Bible more than the Book of Mormon does. The two full accounts will come forth to the Gentiles- when some Gentiles become sanctified as the Brother of Jared - and turn from the Gentiles to the house of Israel.

From these scriptures , we gain a clearer idea of how so many Gentiles will sin against the gospel of Jesus Christ .
They will disavow the new revelations the Lord will bring forth. Having formerly received the gospel, many Gentiles will now reject it. Instead of repenting of their iniquities, they will harden their hearts and deny the Lord of Hosts. Refusing to come unto Christ and obey his voice, these Gentiles will be as "salt that hath lost its savor".
At the time they reject the gospel, the wicked Gentiles are "lifted up in the pride of their hearts above all nations". They are "filled with all manner of lyings, and of deceits, and of mischiefs, and all manner of hypocrisy, and murders, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, and of secret abominations". Being "lifted up in the pride of their eyes", they "put down the power and miracles of God". Publishing for money, they "preach up unto themselves their own wisdom and their own learning, that they may get gain and grind upon the face of the poor".
(3 Nephi 16:10)

These Gentiles have no charity for their fellow beings. They don't thank the Jews nor Lehi's descendants for the scriptures they have received from them. Instead, they curse and hate them and will not recover them. (please see below *** (A) )
The Lord lengthens out his arm to the Gentiles all the day long. But they mar the Lord's servant who brings forth His words.
Their rejecting the Lord's servant and their rejecting the gospel doubly testifies of their apostasy; Nephi, therefore, offers no hope for the Gentiles unless they reconcile themselves to Christ.
Although the Gentiles know God's decrees on this land, many allow secret combinations to get above them. Drunken with iniquity and all manner of abominations, they suffer woes- God's covenant curse.
When they reject his words, the Lord cuts them off from his people.
He removes the fullness of his gospel from among the wicked, giving it to those who will receive it.
With the wicked Gentiles' apostasy and its aftermath, the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

The Lord turns the iniquities of the Gentiles upon their own heads. He comes out in justice against them. The wicked Gentiles bring down the fullness of God's wrath, just as the Jaredites and Nephites did. The Lord visits the Gentiles "with thunder and with earthquake, and with a great noise, and with storm, and with tempest, and with the flame of devouring fire". The sword of justices falls on the wicked Gentiles. He destroys the Gentiles; cities and chariots and executes vengeance and fury upon them.
He covers their land with a desolating sickness. A scourge consumes the wicked.
The unrepentant Gentiles cannot stand before God's power. Lehi's descendants, whom God empowers, marshal themselves and vex the wicked Gentiles.
They go among the Gentiles like a lion among the beasts, treading down and tearing to pieces. Lehi's descendants, who are of the house of Israel, inherit the Gentiles' lands and cities. The Lord reestablishes Lehi's descendants in this land, even as the wicked Gentiles perish.

[SPIRIT]

BUMP

How did this old topic age? Who remembers L Tom Perry's talk back in 1992. It is now thirty years later and what does Utah look like now? What does the church look like now compared to back then? Listen to/read his talk here: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... s?lang=eng

Mormon 8 is more relevant than ever. Remember the two eights: Mormon 8 and Ether 8.

Mormon 8:34 Behold, the Lord hath shown unto me great and marvelous things concerning that which must shortly come, at that day when these things shall come forth among you.

35 Behold, I speak unto you as if ye were present, and yet ye are not. But behold, Jesus Christ hath shown you unto me, and I know your doing.

36 And I know that ye do walk in the pride of your hearts; and there are none save a few only who do not lift themselves up in the pride of their hearts, unto the wearing of very fine apparel, unto envying, and strifes, and malice, and persecutions, and all manner of iniquities; and your churches, yea, even every one, have become polluted because of the pride of your hearts.

37 For behold, ye do love money, and your substance, and your fine apparel, and the adorning of your churches, more than ye love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted.

38 O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of God? Why are ye ashamed to take upon you the name of Christ? Why do ye not think that greater is the value of an endless happiness than that misery which never dies—because of the praise of the world?

39 Why do ye adorn yourselves with that which hath no life, and yet suffer the hungry, and the needy, and the naked, and the sick and the afflicted to pass by you, and notice them not?

40 Yea, why do ye build up your secret abominations to get gain, and cause that widows should mourn before the Lord, and also orphans to mourn before the Lord, and also the blood of their fathers and their husbands to cry unto the Lord from the ground, for vengeance upon your heads?

41 Behold, the sword of vengeance hangeth over you; and the time soon cometh that he avengeth the blood of the saints upon you, for he will not suffer their cries any longer.

Icing on the cake:

out of all threads to bump - well....
I've posted on the holy church of God Mormon 8 topic probably over 20 times (posts alone)
and commented hundreds of times - over the past 5 years.

here is one in 2016 when I was "Isaiah" in the forum.
where I quote Elder L. Tom Perry

Holy church of God ?

Post by Isaiah » June 21st, 2016, 9:38 pm
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=42682&p=717980&hili ... ry#p717980

Elder L. Tom Perry
General Conference Oct. 1992
Using Mormon Chapter 8 to teach us about pride and wealth.
These are some quotes from his talk.

We sense that the only thing Moroni is living for is to complete the record, as he writes, “Therefore I will write and hide up the records in the earth; and whither I go it mattereth not.” (Morm. 8:4.)

All he has is the faith that the Lord will preserve him long enough to complete the record and that someday it will be found by one chosen of the Lord. He realizes that the record will be a voice of warning to future generations of what occurs when nations like his own turn away from the teachings of the Lord. It is from the depths of his heart that Moroni cries out to those who will eventually receive the record. He wants to spare those who read his account the heartache and misery which comes from disobedience.

He writes first to the members of the Church and then to those who have not embraced the gospel of Jesus Christ. Moroni’s last words to the members of the Church are written as a voice of warning. He writes as one who sees the history of his people repeating itself in the future. From the Book of Mormon we read:

“Behold, the Lord hath shown unto me great and marvelous things concerning that which must shortly come, at that day when these things shall come forth among you.

“Behold, I speak unto you as if ye were present, and yet ye are not. But behold, Jesus Christ hath shown you unto me, and I know your doing.

“And I know that ye do walk in the pride of your hearts; and there are none save a few only who do not lift themselves up in the pride of their hearts, unto the wearing of very fine apparel, unto envying, and strifes, and malice, and persecutions, and all manner of iniquities; and your churches, yea, even every one, have become polluted because of the pride of your hearts.

“For behold, ye do love money, and your substance, and your fine apparel, and the adorning of your churches, more than ye love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted.

“O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of God? Why are ye ashamed to take upon you the name of Christ? Why do ye not think that greater is the value of an endless happiness than that misery which never dies—because of the praise of the world?” (Morm. 8:34–38.)

I guess one of the greatest mysteries of mortality is why mankind fails to learn from history. Why do those who profess to be true followers of Christ so often become victims of the enticements of the world? The evidence is so strong regarding the blessings which accrue to those who trust in and follow the ways the Lord has prescribed for us.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From another magazine, Business Week, we read: “Utah at its best. Of the 50 states, Utah has the highest literacy rate, the youngest population, the highest percent of high school graduates, the highest percent of persons with college education, the ninth highest percent of college graduates, a state’s population with the highest average number of years of school completed, the highest birth rate, the lowest death rate, the fourth longest life expectancy, one of the three lowest cancer rates, one of the lowest heart disease rates, the lowest consumption of alcohol, the lowest consumption of tobacco, the shortest average hospital stays, the healthiest population, … [and] the best-run state government.” (Business Week, 16 Dec. 1991, p. 118J.)

Notice both what is being said and not being said in these articles. They are honoring collective accomplishments, not individual achievements. It is noteworthy of what the citizens of Utah have been able to do together. As communities, they have become a beacon to the world. As a people, they have demonstrated an ability to overcome much of the divisiveness of special interests, uncontrolled individualism, and selfishness.
---------------------------------
"How I wish I could feel comfortable with all this special attention we are receiving. In the midst of this favorable publicity, we see so many members seeking worldly pursuits contrary to the words of the Lord’s prophets through the ages."

"Many of us are more concerned about our fine apparel, the size of our homes, and our cars and their gadgets than we are about the needs of the poor and the needy. We also have seen the threat of legalized abortion, gambling, pornography, and challenges to public prayer undermining the values that bind us together as a community of Saints."
---------------------------------------------------------
"Clearly, the members of the Church face tremendous challenges in the latter days. We must not only resist, but mount a counteroffensive against the temptations of the world and its teachings, if we are to preserve our uniqueness."

[SPIRIT]

I think Moroni's choice of words is interesting. He says the church has been polluted... not destroyed.
In a way this gives us a reason to have hope. As far as I can tell he doesn't appear to prophesy of the church's destruction or complete apostasy even though he "see's our doings".
I believe this ties in with D&C 85 where we find the prophecy of the OM&S. He is described as setting in order the house of God, not re-establishing or restoring it.
So there is some hope.

Bro. Brigham is quoted as saying the people will be led to the very brink of hell by their leaders. Enter the OM&S at that point to save the day.
It's going to be a rough ride as the pollutions within the church multiply, but we will get through it so long as we are focused on God and not on the arm of flesh.

As far as I can tell he doesn't appear to prophesy of the church's destruction

He may or may not, but other scriptures and prophets, including Jesus Christ do.

or complete apostasy

well, if polluting the holy church of God doesn't mean that the church is in complete apostasy -
(even as the very first chapter of Isaiah indicates) ******
then I don't know what does.

******
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EVERYTHING IN THE BOOK OF ISAIAH IS SPEAKING TO THE LORD'S END-TIME PEOPLE -
(US - OUR CORRUPT CHURCH TODAY.)

The church has completely fallen - years ago. and "have lapsed into apostasy."
The first Chapter of Isaiah verse 4 reveals that.

4 Alas, a nation astray, a people weighed down by sin, the offspring of wrongdoers, perverse children:
they have forsaken Jehovah, they have spurned the Holy One of Israel,
they have lapsed into apostasy.

From addressing his people personally as “Israel . . . my people” (v 3), Jehovah now addresses them impersonally as “a nation,” signifying their alienated state. Additionally, a regression occurs from his people’s simply going “astray” to their burdening themselves with “sin,” which, over time, ends in outright “wrongdoing.” That occurs collectively and generationally. The “offspring of wrongdoers” turn into “perverse children,” meaning that the rising generation has by now become thoroughly corrupt. “Forsaking” Jehovah and “spurning” him finally become conscious and deliberate acts.

The Holy One of Israel. The title of “Holy One,” together with “Valiant One” (v 24) designates Israel’s God more than thirty times in the Book of Isaiah. In this case, it contrasts Jehovah’s holiness with his people’s unholiness. Still, it points to what Jehovah’s people should become—“holy” or “sanctified,” like their God. Both titles—“Holy One” and “Valiant One”—characterize Israel’s God as his people’s exemplar. We observe this in an instance in which Jehovah exempts a righteous remnant of his people called his “holy ones” and “valiant ones” from a worldwide destruction (Isaiah 13:3).

They have lapsed into apostasy. Hebrew nazoru ahor signifies that Jehovah’s people have become entirely “estranged” from him. They have “gone backwards” to what they used to be before they became Jehovah’s covenant people, when they didn’t know their God. In effect, they have become godless again like the world’s heathen nations, but now more so because they have rejected the light they once had. The apostasy into which they began to backslide a generation ago is now complete. As a consequence, instead of enjoying the blessings of the covenant, they must suffer its curses.

[Robin Hood]

I disagree with you SPIRIT. Moroni is clear that the church becomes polluted, but the D&C makes it clear that the OM&S sets it in order. That is clearly not a complete apostasy.
I think you are falling into the mindset of many in your thinking here. The "church" is not the leaders. The church is the ecclesia, the congregation of believers. There will be a remnant that the OM&S can set in order. It won't in all likelihood include the crowd in SLC, but that is not the issue. The leadership can be in apostasy but not the entire church. Just like in the early Christian times when the church survived in various enclaves despite the apostasy in Jerusalem/Rome.

[BeNotDeceived]

BUMP

Mormon 8 is more relevant than ever. Remember the two eights: Mormon 8 and Ether 8.

Good things come in threes, especially eights.

I did not know this was in 3 Nephi 8. Never read it or I would have recognized it immediately. I essentially knew of it since 1969/70 from direct revelation from the Spirit. I have posted about it here more than once. When God said let there be light he was not just talking about visible light …

3*8**

[SPIRIT]

I disagree with you SPIRIT. Moroni is clear that the church becomes polluted, but the D&C makes it clear that the OM&S sets it in order. That is clearly not a complete apostasy.
I think you are falling into the mindset of many in your thinking here. The "church" is not the leaders. The church is the ecclesia, the congregation of believers. There will be a remnant that the OM&S can set in order. It won't in all likelihood include the crowd in SLC, but that is not the issue. The leadership can be in apostasy but not the entire church. Just like in the early Christian times when the church survived in various enclaves despite the apostasy in Jerusalem/Rome.

your whole argument is based on - how the word "church" is being used.
Yes, Moroni does make it clear that the church becomes polluted,
but the church he is talking about, couldn't be - how the word church is used (below, at bottom ******)
but is the current LDS church, that - "Jesus Christ hath shown you unto me, and I know your doing." Mor. 8:35
which, as we know, by Isaiah 1:4 (which I've shown) and other scriptures, IS IN TOTAL APOSTASY;
and WILL NOT BE, and IS NOT what the OM&S sets in order; just as you stated -
"There will be a remnant that the OM&S can set in order.
It won't in all likelihood include the crowd in SLC, but that is not the issue"
This is true. ***
but you said - 'The leadership can be in apostasy but not the entire church. '
this is wrong, UNLESS by church, you mean - like those explained below,
*** just as Gileadi said, or like I explained at bottom ******)

*** just as Gileadi put it -
"A hard fact of Isaiah’s end-time scenario is that it is not those who appear to be God’s people whom God saves in the end but those who are rejected by the majority. These “outcasts” suffer “reproach” and “ridicule,” are “excluded” from God’s people, and, like God’s servant who gathers them, are “despised” and “abhorred” until God reverses their circumstances (Isaiah 49:7–8; 51:7; 60:15–16; 61:7, 9; 66:5–8). In the end, those who are excluded and betrayed by their own people, are gathered with God’s righteous remnant: “Thus says my Lord Jehovah, who gathers up the outcasts of Israel: ‘I will gather others to those already gathered’” (Isaiah 56:3, 8)."







******
D&C 10
67 Behold, this is my doctrine—whosoever repenteth and cometh unto me, the same is my church.
68 Whosoever declareth more or less than this, the same is not of me,
but is against me; therefore he is not of my church.
69 And now, behold, whosoever is of my church, and endureth of my church to the end,
him will I establish upon my rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them.

now where have I heard that before - "rock" "and upon this rock I will build my church"
Matthew 16
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood
hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church;
and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

* "every time "church" is mentioned in the New Testament,
it refers only to the people who believe in Christ"

so the Lord is saying,
WHOEVER repents, and comes to Him IS His church, (ANYONE)
and He will build His church, with those that come to Him, the way how it was revealed to Peter that He was the Christ -
that is - through the rock of revelation - His spirit - the Holy Ghost.