Pres Monson hasn't borne a(n LDS Morg) testimony in 8 years.

[AussieOi]

Apparently.
He's still emphasizing the Restoration in his talks, expressing gratitude for it, explaining how to gain to gain a testimony of it, and encouraging everyone else to testify of it. The only thing he isn't doing is following his own encouragement.

Packer hasn't for 15.

DYOR




http://www.scribd.com/doc/159313089/Mon ... to-Testify" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[AGStacker]

His testimony is too sacred Aussie and shouldn't be had among us mere mortals... B-)

[Original_Intent]

His testimony is too sacred Aussie and shouldn't be had among us mere mortals... B-)

Disappointing.

[AGStacker]

His testimony is too sacred Aussie and shouldn't be had among us mere mortals... B-)

Disappointing.

I suppose so. I always admit that him and the other 14 brethren have done more than I ever have or probably ever will in terms of serving and loving others. I just get sorely disappointed myself when others aren't truthful especially when so many look to them for guidance. My favorite prophet up until recently was Ezra Taft Benson. In fact I wanted to name a son Ezra. (wife still wants to) You know why I appreciated him so much and in this regard still do. It was because I felt like he warned members of our obligation to uphold the Constitution and in my opinion made many prophetic statements about government and our day. I get disappointed when I find out someone like himself would give a talk about the 14 fundamentals about prophets... I heard he was a bit chastened over it but none of that news ever hit the mainstream of course. They would never want there to appear that there were any big difference of opinions.

Oh well. Sorry if my comment was rude. It was meant to be sarcastic. Often people argue that the 15 say they are a special witness because it is too sacred to actually say you've seen Christ. Well, it wasn't too sacred for Moroni or Nephi or Enos or Paul or Joseph to write their personal testimonies of the Savior that they knew would be printed in mass one day. If none of these guys ever said they'd actually seen Christ I would assume that no man could ever see Christ. I don't personally know President Monson. I am sure he is a likeable and loving guy. I wish he would be more upfront. "I've seen Christ and so can you" or "I haven't but I believe that I can".

[kgrigio]

http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?v ... &hideNav=1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

From General Conference April 2007

http://www.lds.org/general-conference/2 ... sus+christ" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

From General Conference April 2012

http://www.lds.org/general-conference/2 ... sus+christ" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

From General Conference Oct 2011 - But maybe not as "convincing" as some would like

http://www.lds.org/general-conference/2 ... sus+christ" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

From General Conference April 2010


Boyd K Packer
http://www.lds.org/general-conference/2 ... sus+christ" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

From April 2013 GC

Perhaps you should DYOR rather than relying on websites dedicated to tearing down the brethren.

[e-eye]

Not general conference but more recent. Come on Aussie you have nothing better to do than to read anti-prophet comments.

http://history.lds.org/article/thomas-s ... y?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This is a powerful testimony.

[InfoWarrior82]

[embryopocket]

"Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly... - Psalms 1:1

People write articles like that just to shake the faith of others. Anyone who has watched General Conference in the last 8 years knows that President Monson always bears testimony of the Savior.

[Lizzy60]

To all of you above -- the article that Aussie attached does NOT say that Pres Monson does not bear testimony of the Savior. He does, often and fervently. What the article states is that it seems, and is evident in the record, is that for the past 8 years or so he has not borne direct and fervent testimony of Joseph Smith as a Prophet, or the Book of Mormon as divinely restored scripture, or that prophet leads the church today through direct revelation from God. Monson alludes to these beliefs, but stops short of using unequivocal language regarding his testimony of them. He uses that unequivocal language in testifying of God and Christ, and of the work the Church is doing.

AussieOI, perhaps the title of the thread could be more clear on what he bears testimony of, and what he doesn't?

[InfoWarrior82]

To all of you above -- the article that Aussie attached does NOT say that Pres Monson does not bear testimony of the Savior. He does, often and fervently. What the article states is that it seems, and is evident in the record, is that for the past 8 years or so he has not borne direct and fervent testimony of Joseph Smith as a Prophet, or the Book of Mormon as divinely restored scripture, or that prophet leads the church today through direct revelation from God. Monson alludes to these beliefs, but stops short of using unequivocal language regarding his testimony of them. He uses that unequivocal language in testifying of God and Christ, and of the work the Church is doing.

AussieOI, perhaps the title of the thread could be more clear on what he bears testimony of, and what he doesn't?

Pretty unequivocal to me.

http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?v ... &hideNav=1

From General Conference April 2007

http://www.lds.org/general-conference/2 ... sus+christ" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

From General Conference April 2012

http://www.lds.org/general-conference/2 ... sus+christ" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

From General Conference Oct 2011 - But maybe not as "convincing" as some would like

http://www.lds.org/general-conference/2 ... sus+christ" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

From General Conference April 2010


Boyd K Packer
http://www.lds.org/general-conference/2 ... sus+christ" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

From April 2013 GC

Perhaps you should DYOR rather than relying on websites dedicated to tearing down the brethren.

[AussieOi]

Its pretty clear from your average testimony meeting, being typically devoid of reference to Jesus, that to LDS, the word "testimony" refers to Joseph smith was a prophet. He saw god. One true church, book of Mormon and TSM is a prophet
Granted he cant say the latter, but go ask any 14 yr old kid what a "testimony" says

[AussieOi]

"Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly... - Psalms 1:1

People write articles like that just to shake the faith of others. Anyone who has watched General Conference in the last 8 years knows that President Monson always bears testimony of the Savior.

So does every other televangelist.

[kgrigio]

Its pretty clear from your average testimony meeting, being typically devoid of reference to Jesus, that to LDS, the word "testimony" refers to Joseph smith was a prophet. He saw god. One true church, book of Mormon and TSM is a prophet
Granted he cant say the latter, but go ask any 14 yr old kid what a "testimony" says

Dude, Aussie, you need to go to a different ward then. I am in very few testimony meetings where a good majority of the testimonies aren't about Christ and the atonement. Sure, there are always some that need a lot of help and others that shouldn't be allowed on the stand because you know all they want to do is talk nonsense, but that is where the average member comes in, to help redirect the meeting when it starts to go off course.

In the ward I grew up in, we had a brother that was in an accident and wasn't right in the head. When he came to testimony meeting he would get up and talk about the latest dreams he had and when the end of the world was coming. There was a wonderful brother that always got up right after him, told him how much he loved this brother, and then bore pure testimony of Christ. I have seen more of that then what you tend to always allude to and I have been in a fair number of wards throughout my life.

[keep the faith]

Apparently.
He's still emphasizing the Restoration in his talks, expressing gratitude for it, explaining how to gain to gain a testimony of it, and encouraging everyone else to testify of it. The only thing he isn't doing is following his own encouragement.

Packer hasn't for 15.

DYOR




http://www.scribd.com/doc/159313089/Mon ... to-Testify" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Wow. I am speechless. Is this some kind of a joke or are you really being serious here? If you care to read the last conference talks from back in April AussieOi you will find the following testimonies of the foundational doctrines of the church by both Pres. Packer and Pres. Monson. Here is Pres. Packers:

"All are born with the Light of Christ, a guiding influence which permits each person to recognize right from wrong. What we do with that light and how we respond to those promptings to live righteously is part of the test of mortality.

“For behold, the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil; wherefore, I show unto you the way to judge; for every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God.”8

Each of us must stay in condition to respond to inspiration and the promptings of the Holy Ghost. The Lord has a way of pouring pure intelligence into our minds to prompt us, to guide us, to teach us, and to warn us. Each son or daughter of God can know the things they need to know instantly. Learn to receive and act on inspiration and revelation.

Of all that I have read and taught and learned, the one most precious and sacred truth that I have to offer is my special witness of Jesus Christ. He lives. I know He lives. I am His witness. And of Him I can testify. He is our Savior, our Redeemer. Of this I am certain. Of this I bear witness in the name of Jesus Christ, amen."

And here is Pres. Monson's:

"My brothers and sisters, I want you to know how grateful I am for the gospel of Jesus Christ, restored in these latter days through the Prophet Joseph Smith. It is the key to our happiness. May we be humble and prayerful, having the faith that our Heavenly Father can guide and bless us in our lives.

I bear my personal witness and testimony to you that God lives, that He hears the prayers of humble hearts. His Son, our Savior and Redeemer, speaks to each of us: “Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him.”2 May we believe these words and take advantage of this promise."

If those 2 testimonies aren't testimonies of the unique foundational doctrines of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints then I really don't know what would be. Pres. Monson testified of our privledge of coming into the presence of our Lord. That isn't a unique foundational doctrine? The blogger article AussieOi posted from is compiled by a lier and a deceiver. Buyer beware. Whats the next big scoop on tap? Pres. Monson is part of the illuminati and is going to the next Bilderburger conference to worship the owl?

[TZONE]

Why don't we focus our time on connecting to heaven ;)

[Frederick]

"My brothers and sisters, I want you to know how grateful I am for the gospel of Jesus Christ, restored in these latter days through the Prophet Joseph Smith. It is the key to our happiness. May we be humble and prayerful, having the faith that our Heavenly Father can guide and bless us in our lives.

I don't mean to nitpick here, but this is not a testimony. This is a statement of gratitude. Frankly, one of my pet peeves in testimony meetings are thanktimonies. A testimony is a witness, as in if you are an eye witness to an event. It is a statement like, I know, I testify, etc...

Just my two cents. I'm not declaring any affirmation or rejection of the article in question. I'm reading it now. However, I did find the quote you provided didn't meet a definition of testimony.

[lemuel]

"My brothers and sisters, I want you to know how grateful I am for the gospel of Jesus Christ, restored in these latter days through the Prophet Joseph Smith. It is the key to our happiness. May we be humble and prayerful, having the faith that our Heavenly Father can guide and bless us in our lives.

I don't mean to nitpick here, but this is not a testimony. This is a statement of gratitude. Frankly, one of my pet peeves in testimony meetings are thanktimonies. A testimony is a witness, as in if you are an eye witness to an event. It is a statement like, I know, I testify, etc...

Just my two cents. I'm not declaring any affirmation or rejection of the article in question. I'm reading it now. However, I did find the quote you provided didn't meet a definition of testimony.

Doesn't a statement of gratitude imply belief?

[drjme]

"My brothers and sisters, I want you to know how grateful I am for the gospel of Jesus Christ, restored in these latter days through the Prophet Joseph Smith. It is the key to our happiness. May we be humble and prayerful, having the faith that our Heavenly Father can guide and bless us in our lives.

I don't mean to nitpick here, but this is not a testimony. This is a statement of gratitude. Frankly, one of my pet peeves in testimony meetings are thanktimonies. A testimony is a witness, as in if you are an eye witness to an event. It is a statement like, I know, I testify, etc...

Just my two cents. I'm not declaring any affirmation or rejection of the article in question. I'm reading it now. However, I did find the quote you provided didn't meet a definition of testimony.

Doesn't a statement of gratitude imply belief?

Nope

[Silas]

How is it that you can say you are grateful that something took place without positing your belief in the event? You can absolutely bear your testimony by saying things like I am grateful for the atonement of Christ which redeems me, or, I am grateful that the Lord restored the gospel through the prophet Joseph Smith. Gratitude and testimony are not mutually exclusive.

[AussieOi]

If you are on the payroll of a nasdaq company you'd say you are greatful for the company in your life, that investing in it provides (shareholders) happiness, etc.

Means squat about what you think about_the_company tho

[Silas]

Your analogy is entirely faulty, because in testimony gratitude is in relation to the reality of the thing we are grateful for. You analogy would only fit if you said I am grateful this company is providing happiness to its investors, because in addition to gratitude you are also expressing your belief that it is providing happiness to it's investors. drjme is suggesting that gratitude and statements of belief are mutually exclusive, which is a position that is unsupported by logic and reasoning. Even if we leave your example unmodified at a minimum it shows a belief in the things that you think the company is doing which you say you are grateful for. Could you think other things about the company? Sure but could I conclude from hearing someone say that about the company that they do not believe that it is in reality doing the things they say that they are grateful to it for doing? Absolutely not.
Still it is a moot point, because you are picking apart one single testimony of President Monson, when he has in fact born many testimonies over the years where he unequivocally testifies of the restoration. Regarding the original post it has already been clearly shown that you could only agree with it if you worked really hard at ignoring the many times over the past eight years when he has born testimony.

[Frederick]

"My brothers and sisters, I want you to know how grateful I am for the gospel of Jesus Christ, restored in these latter days through the Prophet Joseph Smith. It is the key to our happiness. May we be humble and prayerful, having the faith that our Heavenly Father can guide and bless us in our lives.

I don't mean to nitpick here, but this is not a testimony. This is a statement of gratitude. Frankly, one of my pet peeves in testimony meetings are thanktimonies. A testimony is a witness, as in if you are an eye witness to an event. It is a statement like, I know, I testify, etc...

Just my two cents. I'm not declaring any affirmation or rejection of the article in question. I'm reading it now. However, I did find the quote you provided didn't meet a definition of testimony.

Doesn't a statement of gratitude imply belief?

I don't think we set a good example by implying a belief. His own council is that we should dare to stand alone.

Frankly I'm tired of hearing people make excuses like, "if you read between the lines, you can see what our leaders are saying." The only time in scripture when we are required to have eyes to see and read between lines is when we are given parables. See the numerous parables in the New Testament, or even in our own D&C. I agree with President Monson, we should all dare to stand alone. They as leaders should set the example. Testify boldly and plainly. Give parables when it is necessary to speak to those that have eyes to see and ears to hear. Implying belief is not declaring a testimony.

I know and testify that Joseph Smith was a prophet and that he translated the Book of Mormon by the gift and power of God. I testify that the Book of Mormon contains the word of God. It is a book of prophecy, it was written by prophets who saw our day and wrote to us directly. I know these things for myself. God has revealed the truth of these things to me directly, by His own voice out of the heavens. I know that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, the father of heaven and earth. This is my testimony.

[Frederick]

http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?v ... &hideNav=1

From General Conference April 2007

http://www.lds.org/general-conference/2 ... sus+christ" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

From General Conference April 2012

http://www.lds.org/general-conference/2 ... sus+christ" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

From General Conference Oct 2011 - But maybe not as "convincing" as some would like

http://www.lds.org/general-conference/2 ... sus+christ" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

From General Conference April 2010


Boyd K Packer
http://www.lds.org/general-conference/2 ... sus+christ" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

From April 2013 GC

Perhaps you should DYOR rather than relying on websites dedicated to tearing down the brethren.

Actually, President Packer's talk is quoted in that paper. Also, the article isn't saying President Monson hasn't borne a testimony, it says he "hasn't borne testimony of any of the church's unique foundational doctrines." Such as, declaring his testimony that he knows Joseph Smith was a prophet, etc.... Maybe the title of this thread could be amended for clarification.

I went through and read the talks you posted and found this statement.

I believe the testimony of one who, in this dispensation, spoke with the Father and the Son in a grove now called sacred and who gave his life, sealing that testimony with his blood.

Interestingly, this is the type of statement that is analyzed in the article. Here is a testimony of a testimony. Is it the same thing as saying I know Joseph Smith was a prophet? Hmmm.... I've heard clearer testimonies. But I'll grant that if seeing the Father and the Son makes one a prophet, then this statement is a testimony of the prophet Joseph Smith.

However, if seeing the Father and son makes one a prophet, how many prophets are there? How many are eye witnesses to both the Father and the Son?

I have still not offered my own opinion on the article mentioned in the OP. I'm still looking into it. However, I think if we are going to discuss it, we should at least discuss it accurately.

[natasha]

http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?v ... &hideNav=1

From General Conference April 2007

http://www.lds.org/general-conference/2 ... sus+christ" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

From General Conference April 2012

http://www.lds.org/general-conference/2 ... sus+christ" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

From General Conference Oct 2011 - But maybe not as "convincing" as some would like

http://www.lds.org/general-conference/2 ... sus+christ" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

From General Conference April 2010


Boyd K Packer
http://www.lds.org/general-conference/2 ... sus+christ" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

From April 2013 GC

Perhaps you should DYOR rather than relying on websites dedicated to tearing down the brethren.

Bravo, Kgrigio!!! I have heard the same on several occasions....and probably more than just several except I am "old" and most things go into "short term memory" now. You are correct to be concerned about where people go for their information. I have often gone to sites that have been referenced on this forum, only to find that the site has its own agenda... and often not one favorable to the Church.

[natasha]

Its pretty clear from your average testimony meeting, being typically devoid of reference to Jesus, that to LDS, the word "testimony" refers to Joseph smith was a prophet. He saw god. One true church, book of Mormon and TSM is a prophet
Granted he cant say the latter, but go ask any 14 yr old kid what a "testimony" says

I'm truly sorry if this has been your experience, AussieOi. You and a few others have made similar statements....and these statements have caused me to listen more closely to testimonies and talks given in my Ward. Almost to a person...they have testified of the divinity of the Savior and what he means to them in their lives....how they have drawn closer to Him and have been "rewarded" by an increase of faith, etc. Perhaps you might lovingly express your feelings to your Ward and help them in that endeavor.