HeartSell(tm) vs The Holy Ghost

[SkyBird]

Ok so I thought I'd think about this discussion we've had for a couple of days before I commented next.

I can see some similarities and I can see some clear differences which I'd like skybird to answer if possible as one of them were replied to when asked in my previous posts. This isn't a personal attack at all, our trying to tear down at all.

1.If you believe it is the attributes of godliness that we worship, and you believe as you said 'I don't believe I lack any of the attributes of godliness", do you then worship yourself in some respects? Do you see any complications with this? If not could you explain.
ono
2. You repeatedly said it is attaining these attributes that we become one with God, and that it is our doing. Do you believe that Christ is the only way to be reconciled to God by being made clean and spotless in Him?

And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

3.Do you believe even the least will be made the greatest in the kingdom of God? And that even in your attempts to attain these perfect attributes, the repentant slothful,sinful servant/son has just as much opportunity to attain Gods full inheritance as shown in the story of the prodigal son? So that even someone who sorely lacks these attributes still has claim on a full reconciliation?

4. If you believe the first God attained holy attributes and so became God, do you believe it is the same process for everyone else.

5. If you believe you are Holy Ghost, have you experienced the tangible effects of the Holy Ghost as described in acts 10:38 (anointed meaning its actual original meaning (to be smeared, covered with oil) and the associated manifestation of healings and spiritual encounters with others, by having that presence?

I have more questions, but have to run, I have my beliefs, understandings and experiences but would like to clarify yours, as I do believe as dannyK said they will end up running mostly in the same vein.

SkyBird's Answer for the first question:

It is hard to know where you are coming from... and I respect you, I really do. I want to answer you honestly... heart to heart and mind to mind if I could. The Spirit will have to convey the intent. I think by starting from a common foundational point might help you to see where I am coming from; and where I start from you may not agree, but this is where it all begins with me.
Who am I? Where did I come from? These two questions go hand in hand. To me, I am an eternal spirit being with potential...like everyone else including the "God" whom I worship in spirit and truth. My spirit was not created or made. I have always existed. I do not separate my spirit and intelligence; they are one and the same to me. My spirit has been in existence forever and so has Gods...

Ye were also in the beginning with the Father; that which is Spirit, even the Spirit of truth;
24 And truth is knowledge of things as they are, and as they were, and as they are to come;(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 93:23 - 24)

Because of this revelation (D&C 93:23-24), we are "co-eternal" beings having the same potential to "become." This is my foundational starting point. The difference is I am not where "God" is yet (glorified and exalted) but I am on the journey! I am not the "offspring of procreation" as some believe in the Church. I am "co-eternal" with God...meaning my spirit is as Abraham 3: 18 says:

"Howbeit that he made the greater star; as, also, if there be two spirits, and one shall be more intelligent than the other, yet these two spirits, notwithstanding one is more intelligent than the other, have no beginning; they existed before, they shall have no end, they shall exist after, for they are gnolaum, or eternal."(Pearl of Great Price | Abraham 3:18)

And the Prophet Joseph Smith said this about our spirit being, which would make everything else, opinion or commentary:

"I want to reason more on the Spirit of Man, I take my ring from my finger and liken it unto the immortal spirit because it has no beginning. Suppose you cut it into, as the Devil lives there would be an end. All the fools and wise men from the beginning of creation who say that man had a beginning--they must have an end and then the doctrine of annihilation would be true. But if I am right I might with boldness and proclaim from the housetop that God never had the power to create the Spirit of Man at all. God himself could not create himself. Intelligence is self-existent, it is a spirit from age to age and there is no creation about it."
I am also "co-equal" with God... and this is where our "potential" comes from... it is innate to each of us. This explains how the 1st Spirit Being became a "God." "Potential" says it all to me! All the "attributes of godliness" are potentially within our spirits. We all have that ability to grow spiritually towards our greatest potential... to become a God as "God" is God. So the Father and Christ are spiritual beings who have fulfilled their greatest potential! I am following that same eternal pattern. It is the same for everyone. That's why the Lectures of Faith are so important to me... and if the Church does not claim it as the "Doctrine of the Church," anymore, I do personally! It teaches the true nature and character of God and how we can become just like them if we follow this concept in Lecture 7: 16-17).

"These teachings of the Savior most clearly show unto us the nature of salvation (exaltation in the highest degree) and what he proposed unto the human family when he proposed to save them--that he proposed to make them like unto himself, and he was like the Father, the great prototype of all saved beings; and for any portion of the human family to be assimilated into their likeness is to be saved (exalted in the highest degree) and to be unlike them is to be destroyed; and on this hinge turns the door of salvation (exalted in the highest degree).

"Who cannot see, then, that salvation is the EFFECT of faith? For as we have previously observed, ALL heavenly beings work by this principle; and it is because they are able so to do that they are saved, for NOTHING BUT THIS could save them. And this is the lesson which the God of heaven, by the mouth of his holy prophets, has been endeavoring to teach to the world. Hence we are told, that "Without faith it is impossible to please God" and that salvation is of faith, that it might be by grace (pure spiritual grace is the attributes of godliness personified in us) and to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed (Romans 4:16). And that Israel, who followed after the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness. Why? Because they sought in not the faith, but as it were by the works of the law; for they stumbled at the stumbling stone (Romans 9:32)."

May I explain the difference between the “effects” of faith mentioned in Lectures on Faith and the “affects” of faith and why the word “effect” was chosen throughout the Lectures on Faith? The “effects” of faith always comes from “within” us. It is an internal commitment to personify a particular attribute and in this case, the attributes of godliness and holiness of character. The “affects” of faith comes from worshiping the person or individual God, or the forms and structures outside our being. The “affects” of faith never can produce a God, but the “effects of faith” always will. The “affects” of faith is “lip” service, the letter of the law and the “effects of faith” is when we draw near unto God with our “hearts.” One is an internal commitment and the other is an external commitment. One awakens us and the other transforms us!

I see no complications in worshiping the attributes of godliness and holiness of character… to me it is the whole message of Lectures of Faith and Sermon of the Mount… it roots and grounds me to the truth… it enables me to have a deeper relationship with my Father in Heaven and my Savior Jesus Christ… it allows me to see the atonement, their mission and purpose in ways I have never seen before. I really feel connected to eternity!

Yes, I believe that if we worship (meaning to show respect, honor and obedience) to the attributes of godliness we are connecting to not only our own potential, which is absolute and vital to being “rooted and grounded” on a solid internal foundation within; but we are also connecting to our Father in Heaven and Jesus Christ in a true form of worship by showing we have chosen to respect, honor and obey the very attributes of character that makes them Gods. Take away one attribute of godliness from God and He or She would cease to be a God of worship.

[AussieOi]

Hey Aussie,

The core of Christs gospel is like a two edged sword, we let the "master surgeon" use it to cut away the unclean growths, philosophies of men and heartsell so that all that is left is clean and pure, an understanding of perfect clarity In Him. I believe, The onus is on Him to guide us, to show us what to cut away and what to keep.

Will pm

No need for pm, you know me I know what youd say.

That double edged sword.

one side he says he knocks we need to just open the door to him
the other is the lds philosophy that is burned very deep, that says its our fault and we need to change something about ourselves and make ourselves available to him.

your post somewhere here last month was on the money. We can't wait to improve ourselves before we let him heal us.

so I'm somewhere between all of those 3 points , making sure I don't take the "easy" way out, but at the same time not barking up a man made tree

[freedomforall]

My spirit was not created or made. I have always existed. I do not separate my spirit and intelligence; they are one and the same to me. My spirit has been in existence forever

How do we reconcile this scripture with the following ones? One says spirits have no beginning, and the others say God created them. One cannot just stick to Abr 3:18 when there are others saying differently. Are they just to be discarded?

Abr. 3:18
18 Howbeit that he made the greater star; as, also, if there be two spirits, and one shall be more intelligent than the other, yet these two spirits, notwithstanding one is more intelligent than the other, have no beginning; they existed before, they shall have no end, they shall exist after, for they are gnolaum, or eternal.
................................................................................................................................................................................
Eccl. 12:7
7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Moses 3:5
5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew. For I, the Lord God, created all things, of which I have spoken, spiritually, before they were naturally upon the face of the earth. For I, the Lord God, had not caused it to rain upon the face of the earth. And I, the Lord God, had created all the children of men; and not yet a man to till the ground; for in heaven created I them....

Moses 6:51
51 And he called upon our father Adam by his own voice, saying: I am God; I made the world, and men before they were in the flesh.

Moses 6:36
36 And he beheld the spirits that God had created; and he beheld also things which were not visible to the natural eye; and from thenceforth came the saying abroad in the land: A seer hath the Lord raised up unto his people.

[SkyBird]

My spirit was not created or made. I have always existed. I do not separate my spirit and intelligence; they are one and the same to me. My spirit has been in existence forever

How do we reconcile this scripture with the following ones? One says spirits have no beginning, and the others say God created them. One cannot just stick to Abr 3:18 when there are others saying differently. Are they just to be discarded?

What does the word “create” mean?

None of the scriptures are to be discarded, they are to be understood from God’s perspective and sometimes it takes a prophet and/or the Spirit to help us see this more clearly. Joseph Smith said the word "create" means to "organize," teach, instruct, to present a plan (as in the plan of salvation) to evolve.

When we read : “God created the heaven and the earth” and “God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth” and “God created man in his own image” … now from what Joseph Smith said we understand that God "taught us" and "instructed us" and "presented to us" the “plan of salvation.”

Joseph Smith defined this in plain terms and it seems not too many are taking our Later-day Prophet of the Dispensation of the fullness of time seriously.

“The first step in salvation of man is the laws of eternal and self-existing principles. Spirits are eternal.” (TPJS pg. 181: 5)

We are self-existing beings! (TPJS pg. 350: 2) There is no pro-creation about our spirits! This idea is a heresy, false doctrine.

“How does it read in the Hebrew? It does not say in the Hebrew that God created the spirit of man. It says ‘God made man out of the earth and put into him Adam’s spirit, and so became a living body.” (TPJS pg. 353)

Joseph taught that the word “create” means to organize, teach, instruct, it does not mean pro-creation. When God “created” the earth He spoke to the elements (communicated with them) and waited until they obeyed.

“You ask the learned doctors why they say the world was made out of nothing; and they will answer, ‘Doesn’t the Bible say He created the world?’ And they infer, from the word create, that it must have been made out of nothing. Now, the word create came from the word baurau which does not mean to create out of nothing; it means to organize; the same as a man would organize materials to build a ship.” (TPJS pg. 350: 3)

“The spirit of man is not a created being; it existed from eternity, and will exist to eternity. Anything created cannot be eternal; and earth, water, etc., had their existence in an elementary state, from eternity. Our Savior speaks of children and says, their angels always stand before my Father. The Father called all spirits before Him at the creation of man (his physical body) and organized them. He Adam is the head, and was told to multiply.” (TPJS pg. 158:1)

Abr. 3:18
18 Howbeit that he made the greater star; as, also, if there be two spirits, and one shall be more intelligent than the other, yet these two spirits, notwithstanding one is more intelligent than the other, have no beginning; they existed before, they shall have no end, they shall exist after, for they are gnolaum, or eternal.
................................................................................................................................................................................
Eccl. 12:7
7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Moses 3:5
5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew. For I, the Lord God, created all things, of which I have spoken, spiritually, before they were naturally upon the face of the earth. For I, the Lord God, had not caused it to rain upon the face of the earth. And I, the Lord God, had created all the children of men; and not yet a man to till the ground; for in heaven created I them....

If we take the word “created” as defined by the prophet Joseph Smith to mean that God “organized the whole spiritual existence” before it was naturally upon the face of the earth… it makes perfect sense.

Moses 6:51
51 And he called upon our father Adam by his own voice, saying: I am God; I made the world, and men before they were in the flesh.

Moses 6:36
36 And he beheld the spirits that God had created; and he beheld also things which were not visible to the natural eye; and from thenceforth came the saying abroad in the land: A seer hath the Lord raised up unto his people.

SkyBird's answers are in red above and blue below.

There are 3 concepts or ideas to the creation that are absolute:

1. The "spirits" of all creatures great and small that move upon the earth are eternal... they have always existed and have no beginning or no end and cannot be destroyed or cease to exist.
2. “Physical Matter” and all is properties, gas, liquid, solid, etc., has always existed from eternity to eternity. It can be reformed over and over again and cannot be destroyed or cease to exist.
3. “Spirit Matter” “is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes” (D&C 131:7). It is the element of "spirit matter" that is in and through all things, including our spirits and all physical matter. This is the element that allows the Gods to communicate with physical matter and create world without end. Without “spirit matter” it would be impossible to communicate spirit to spirit or spirit to physical element or vice versa. "Spirit Matter" is also from eternity to eternity and cannot be destroyed.

[freedomforall]

I suppose this ties in somewhere.

Doctrine and Covenants, Section 93

29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.
30 All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence.
31 Behold, here is the agency of man, and here is the condemnation of man; because that which was from the beginning is plainly manifest unto them, and they receive not the light.
32 And every man whose spirit receiveth not the light is under condemnation.
33 For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy;
34 And when separated, man cannot receive a fulness of joy.
35 The elements are the tabernacle of God; yea, man is the tabernacle of God, even temples; and whatsoever temple is defiled, God shall destroy that temple.
36 The glory of God is intelligence, or, in other words, light and truth

[SkyBird]

It ties in perfectly... showing our spirits have existed as long as God's spirit... we truly are co-eternal with God. "otherwise there is no existence."

And this scripture makes us co-equal with God... there are many more...

What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

(New Testament | 1 Corinthians 6:19 - 20)

[jo1952]

SkyBird,

I am really appreciating all of your sharing, your insight, and your personal experiencing of Truth as it has and is being revealed to you. Thank you!

This is how the ancient church functioned. I believe it is also how the early Restored church functioned. I am seeing a return to this type of sharing being done among members of the LDS Church, as well as members from among other denominations, and even in members of other world religions. As more Truth is revealed to individual believers, we desire to share what is being revealed. Likewise, we hunger for more and more Truth; and, by sharing, we are able to access and feast upon what is being revealed to others. Truth, regardless of the source, can always be verified by the Holy Spirit. It is so beautiful to see.

jo

[drjme]

Sorry for slow reply, busy and all that.

It is hard to know where you are coming from... and I respect you, I really do. I want to answer you honestly... heart to heart and mind to mind if I could. The Spirit will have to convey the intent. I think by starting from a common foundational point might help you to see where I am coming from; and where I start from you may not agree, but this is where it all begins with me.
Who am I? Where did I come from? These two questions go hand in hand. To me, I am an eternal spirit being with potential...like everyone else including the "God" whom I worship in spirit and truth. My spirit was not created or made. I have always existed. I do not separate my spirit and intelligence; they are one and the same to me. My spirit has been in existence forever and so has Gods...

Ye were also in the beginning with the Father; that which is Spirit, even the Spirit of truth;
24 And truth is knowledge of things as they are, and as they were, and as they are to come;(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 93:23 - 24)

Because of this revelation (D&C 93:23-24), we are "co-eternal" beings having the same potential to "become." This is my foundational starting point. The difference is I am not where "God" is yet (glorified and exalted) but I am on the journey! I am not the "offspring of procreation" as some believe in the Church. I am "co-eternal" with God...meaning my spirit is as Abraham 3: 18 says:

I'll just jump in here, If you want to take this 'fully literal' you would ask two things

Q1. Is God a spirit?
Q2. Does Eternity have a beginning?

A1. No God is not a spirit.
A2. Eternity Has no concept of Time, there is no beginning there is no end. So we were with the Father at the beginning of something. that something being the formation of our 'realm', the beginning of the creation of our 'realm.'

So co equal? no, because He created you.
co eternal? no, Because your spirit was created by Him 'in the beginning'.



"Howbeit that he made the greater star; as, also, if there be two spirits, and one shall be more intelligent than the other, yet these two spirits, notwithstanding one is more intelligent than the other, have no beginning; they existed before, they shall have no end, they shall exist after, for they are gnolaum, or eternal."(Pearl of Great Price | Abraham 3:18)

And the Prophet Joseph Smith said this about our spirit being, which would make everything else, opinion or commentary:

"I want to reason more on the Spirit of Man, I take my ring from my finger and liken it unto the immortal spirit because it has no beginning. Suppose you cut it into, as the Devil lives there would be an end. All the fools and wise men from the beginning of creation who say that man had a beginning--they must have an end and then the doctrine of annihilation would be true. But if I am right I might with boldness and proclaim from the housetop that God never had the power to create the Spirit of Man at all. God himself could not create himself. Intelligence is self-existent, it is a spirit from age to age and there is no creation about it."

And there is what makes it his opinion.

I am also "co-equal" with God... and this is where our "potential" comes from... it is innate to each of us. This explains how the 1st Spirit Being became a "God." "Potential" says it all to me! All the "attributes of godliness" are potentially within our spirits. We all have that ability to grow spiritually towards our greatest potential... to become a God as "God" is God. So the Father and Christ are spiritual beings who have fulfilled their greatest potential! I am following that same eternal pattern. It is the same for everyone. That's why the Lectures of Faith are so important to me... and if the Church does not claim it as the "Doctrine of the Church," anymore, I do personally! It teaches the true nature and character of God and how we can become just like them if we follow this concept in Lecture 7: 16-17).

In the same way The matter of this realm was organized, our spirit matter was organized. So while the matter of spirit may be an eternal substance, the organized matter into spirit has not. as per my above comment.

"These teachings of the Savior most clearly show unto us the nature of salvation (exaltation in the highest degree) and what he proposed unto the human family when he proposed to save them--that he proposed to make them like unto himself, and he was like the Father, the great prototype of all saved beings; and for any portion of the human family to be assimilated into their likeness is to be saved (exalted in the highest degree) and to be unlike them is to be destroyed; and on this hinge turns the door of salvation (exalted in the highest degree).

"Who cannot see, then, that salvation is the EFFECT of faith? For as we have previously observed, ALL heavenly beings work by this principle; and it is because they are able so to do that they are saved, for NOTHING BUT THIS could save them. And this is the lesson which the God of heaven, by the mouth of his holy prophets, has been endeavoring to teach to the world. Hence we are told, that "Without faith it is impossible to please God" and that salvation is of faith, that it might be by grace (pure spiritual grace is the attributes of godliness personified in us) and to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed (Romans 4:16). And that Israel, who followed after the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness. Why? Because they sought in not the faith, but as it were by the works of the law; for they stumbled at the stumbling stone (Romans 9:32)."

More twisting of scriptures out of context. seriously, who needs a saviour, you're even calling grace something of your doing now.
Why didn't Israel attain the law of righteousness? because they wanted to be saved by their OWN works and not by faith in The Lord. I say again, look where that got them.

May I explain the difference between the “effects” of faith mentioned in Lectures on Faith and the “affects” of faith and why the word “effect” was chosen throughout the Lectures on Faith? The “effects” of faith always comes from “within” us. It is an internal commitment to personify a particular attribute and in this case, the attributes of godliness and holiness of character. The “affects” of faith comes from worshiping the person or individual God, or the forms and structures outside our being. The “affects” of faith never can produce a God, but the “effects of faith” always will. The “affects” of faith is “lip” service, the letter of the law and the “effects of faith” is when we draw near unto God with our “hearts.” One is an internal commitment and the other is an external commitment. One awakens us and the other transforms us!

I'm sorry but that's just semantics. If you want to attribute perfection to your own doing just out and say it. Why trivialize it?
Though shalt have no other Gods before ME, You shall love God With all you mind, heart and soul.
Not 'thou shalt love my attributes.'

I see no complications in worshiping the attributes of godliness and holiness of character… to me it is the whole message of Lectures of Faith and Sermon of the Mount… it roots and grounds me to the truth… it enables me to have a deeper relationship with my Father in Heaven and my Savior Jesus Christ… it allows me to see the atonement, their mission and purpose in ways I have never seen before. I really feel connected to eternity!

Yes, I believe that if we worship (meaning to show respect, honor and obedience) to the attributes of godliness we are connecting to not only our own potential, which is absolute and vital to being “rooted and grounded” on a solid internal foundation within; but we are also connecting to our Father in Heaven and Jesus Christ in a true form of worship by showing we have chosen to respect, honor and obey the very attributes of character that makes them Gods. Take away one attribute of godliness from God and He or She would cease to be a God of worship.

How about if he changed His mind (since he is unchangeable apparently), How about if He destroys nations and peoples? are these Godly attributes? How about Wrath and anger? How about if he changed His mind on new and everlasting covenants and done away with them after 60 years, Has he ceased to be God? How about if God repented, He would cease to be God? No. He just 'IS', It is not the attributes you describe that solely make Him God.

[drjme]

also, I'm still keen for you to answer the other 4 questions.

[SkyBird]

Drjme,

With all due respect, I know it is hard for most people to wrap there mind around the concept that your “spirit” and the “spirits of all creatures great and small” have always existed as an entity with eyes, ears, nose, arms, legs, etc., and no imperfections... and with the innate potential to become a “God” in the full sense of the word, speaking of our species! Without this concept firmly established as a foundational principle there is no reason to continue sharing knowledge that you will reject right now.

You must realize “God,” as we know Him today was not always a “God”… If you continue on the path (belief system) that you currently have regarding your spirit… where it came from, meaning it came into existence by a Heavenly Father and Mother… then your journey will be different than mine. The fact is that “God (s)” as we know them today have not always been a “God.” “As man is now, ‘God’ once was, and as God is now, man may become.” …This is a foundational belief in Mormonism but most people in Mormonism do not follow this thinking to its logical conclusion… I honor and respect who you are and the beliefs you are holding on to. My foundation is different… I know I am a spiritual being (always have been) and right now I am having a mortal experience. My greatest desire is to become in character and attribute like my Father and Savior, Jesus Christ!

drjme... I love symbols and I must ask you why you choose the skull mask... what meaning does this have for you?

[drjme]

Edit: sorry if my comments seem abrupt, I just am straight to the point.

Drjme,

With all due respect, I know it is hard for most people to wrap there mind around the concept that your “spirit” and the “spirits of all creatures great and small” have always existed as an entity with eyes, ears, nose, arms, legs, etc., and no imperfections... and with the innate potential to become a “God” in the full sense of the word, speaking of our species! Without this concept firmly established as a foundational principle there is no reason to continue sharing knowledge that you will reject right now.

It's not hard really, even the first chapter in the bible tells us that everything was created in spirit prior to being created in 'physical matter'. But do you believe something else. You don't believe that we are the spiritual offspring of a Loving Heavenly Father? you see yourself as 'co-equal' and 'co eternal'? you see yourself as equal as He is, Yes?

Surely, the reality is We are nowhere near equal with Him. To think so Is folly. If we are equal then we don't need a Savior. If we can do it by our own works We don't need Christ .

Sound familiar?

Why didn't Israel attain the law of righteousness? because they wanted to be saved by their OWN works and not by faith in The Lord.

You still haven't answered If you need Him or not to be made perfect and reconciled to The father.
Now, a perfect loving Father would want all His children to be like Him and inherit all He has. This is absolutely true, But we have been given a way BY HIM. Yes, We have potential (that is realized in HIM, the supreme teacher), we have an inheritance (that is HIS to give us, as heirs). This is what HE says.


You must realize “God,” as we know Him today was not always a “God”… If you continue on the path (belief system) that you currently have regarding your spirit… where it came from, meaning it came into existence by a Heavenly Father and Mother… then your journey will be different than mine.


So you Don't believe you are a CHILD of The Father? more like His Brother?

but to know the path you are in still begs the question, are you made perfect in Christ? Do you need Him to be reconciled to the father? Is he the only path by which you can be cleansed and made whole and spotless? Is this your path back to Him? If so we are on the same path, if not then yes our journeys will be very different.

The fact is that “God (s)” as we know them today have not always been a “God.” “As man is now, ‘God’ once was, and as God is now, man may become.” …This is a foundational belief in Mormonism but most people in Mormonism do not follow this thinking to its logical conclusion

I honor and respect who you are and the beliefs you are holding on to.

The only thing I'm holding onto is my Saviour Jesus Christ. We have the bible and the BOM pronouncing Him as the only way to the father. If you don't believe this then you believe something else, yes? If you aren't holding on to Him, What gospel are you holding onto?

My foundation is different… I know I am a spiritual being (always have been) and right now I am having a mortal experience. My greatest desire is to become in character and attribute like my Father and Savior, Jesus Christ!

As is mine, But it is His work and His Glory in me, not of myself. this is our difference. Without Him I was a wretched weak Man, In Him I am made strong. I think some give themselves too much credit for His work in us. Like I said in another post, what would happen tomorrow, If from the whole world, He withdrew light, His spirit, His protection from the forces of darkness, His promises, and His Love. Could you still maintain the attributes of godliness that are 'yours'? Could they still propel you to Godhood? or would you be swallowed up in the depths of darkness, your own strength and abilites accounting for nothing to save. The reason I keep asking these things is because I'm still trying to understand How the Savior fits in with your version, as it is not clear at all.

drjme... I love symbols and I must ask you why you choose the skull mask... what meaning does this have for you?

No meaning whatsoever. It is an avatar from a PC game I played when I was younger.

[SkyBird]

I can tell you all about Christ from the scriptures, his mission, his purpose, his atonement… but that is book learning… the letter of the law… I am trying to share another dimension of Christ, of the Holy Ghost, of the Father… The book dimension of Christ will get me into the Telestial, Terrestrial and the first two degrees of the Celestial… however, there is another dimension I call atonement in 3D.

The 3D Christ is a mystery (remember a mystery is only made known to you individually, because it is spirit to spirit that we are taught and come to understand) … we may not comprehend this now but if we seek and ask the answers will come. We are all co-equal with God/Christ (having the same innate potential to become a “God”) and co-eternal with God/Christ (we have always existed as a spirit being).

Many people see themselves as separated from God/Christ, and in a “fallen state” we are. I don’t see myself “separated” from God anymore but “connected” in every way… though I am not totally in tune with everything yet… this comes with obedience to the “god potential” within. The “god potential” within must be embraced 1st before we can ever enter “God’s” 3D dimension… The temple endowment teaches this. How many times do you hear the word “in” in the last token at the veil of the temple? There is great symbolism in this mystery! The word “in” symbolizes one of the greatest mysteries of godliness! We say our prayers “in” the name of Jesus Christ. We baptize “in” the name of… We take the sacrament “in” the name of… This is spirituality 101 if we have ears to hear and eyes to see.

The gospel of Jesus Christ is about the “inward” man, a mystery that can only come to you independently from anyone else including “God” himself! It happens only when we immerse ourselves “in” the “inward” man! There are no words to describe this experience… it’s a mystery! The mystery of Christ in you that apostle Paul talked about!

We live in a “potential universe” … all the concepts shared with us in the restoration are “potential based,” from a “spiritual perspective” we can learn what a “fullness” means, from God’s perspective, or mans. “God’s” perspective begins “in” the “inner man” and moves outward… then we embrace Him… the “holy embrace.”

[drjme]

Hey Sky bird though I'd probe this a bit more.

I can tell you all about Christ from the scriptures, his mission, his purpose, his atonement… but that is book learning… the letter of the law… I am trying to share another dimension of Christ, of the Holy Ghost, of the Father… The book dimension of Christ will get me into the Telestial, Terrestrial and the first two degrees of the Celestial… however, there is another dimension I call atonement in 3D.

The 3D Christ is a mystery (remember a mystery is only made known to you individually, because it is spirit to spirit that we are taught and come to understand) … we may not comprehend this now but if we seek and ask the answers will come. We are all co-equal with God/Christ (having the same innate potential to become a “God”) and co-eternal with God/Christ (we have always existed as a spirit being).

Many people see themselves as separated from God/Christ, and in a “fallen state” we are. I don’t see myself “separated” from God anymore but “connected” in every way… though I am not totally in tune with everything yet… this comes with obedience to the “god potential” within. The “god potential” within must be embraced 1st before we can ever enter “God’s” 3D dimension… The temple endowment teaches this. How many times do you hear the word “in” in the last token at the veil of the temple? There is great symbolism in this mystery! The word “in” symbolizes one of the greatest mysteries of godliness! We say our prayers “in” the name of Jesus Christ. We baptize “in” the name of… We take the sacrament “in” the name of… This is spirituality 101 if we have ears to hear and eyes to see.

The gospel of Jesus Christ is about the “inward” man, a mystery that can only come to you independently from anyone else including “God” himself! It happens only when we immerse ourselves “in” the “inward” man! There are no words to describe this experience… it’s a mystery! The mystery of Christ in you that apostle Paul talked about!

We live in a “potential universe” … all the concepts shared with us in the restoration are “potential based,” from a “spiritual perspective” we can learn what a “fullness” means, from God’s perspective, or mans. “God’s” perspective begins “in” the “inner man” and moves outward… then we embrace Him… the “holy embrace.”

I don't believe that Christs actual ministry and teachings while here in the flesh is 'the letter of the law', but are actually the core of the gospel, my foundation is grounded surely in this. I've asked you a whole bunch of questions relating to this, yet you have avoided all of them. would you care to answer them so I can understand what you are basing these beliefs. The foundational principles you have stated so far have been the lectures of faith and an opinion of Joesph Smith relating to the creation of the Gods and universe, Is it really all based on an 'If I were right" and an "I might"?

The gospel of Jesus Christ is about the “inward” man, a mystery that can only come to you independently from anyone else including “God” himself! It happens only when we immerse ourselves “in” the “inward” man! There are no words to describe this experience… it’s a mystery! The mystery of Christ in you that apostle Paul talked about!

they solved the mystery 2000 years ago. they even tell us what it is and what it means "a hope of glory...every man perfect in Christ Jesus". It's not a mystery anymore!

Many people see themselves as separated from God/Christ, and in a “fallen state” we are. I don’t see myself “separated” from God anymore but “connected” in every way… though I am not totally in tune with everything yet

I probably asked you this already. Can I ask again are you experiencing the physical manifestations/miracles of the spirit, prevalent with a secure connection with the presence of Holy Spirit as described in scripture?
I agree that when we come to Christ we are "risen with Christ" and should "seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God."and so we should "Set our affections on things above, not on things on the earth." That as we come to a real understanding of what it means to set our affections on things above, we see ourselves seated with Christ, and our focus moves from an 'as on earth' mindset looking upwards, to a 'as in heaven' reality around us, and with that shift comes the manifestations that Christ spoke of when He said, "you will do greater works than I have done".

We say our prayers “in” the name of Jesus Christ. We baptize “in” the name of… We take the sacrament “in” the name of… This is spirituality 101 if we have ears to hear and eyes to see.

It is because Christ is our intercessor with the Father, and that our way to The Father is through Him (we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous (1 john 2:1). we pray in Jesus name, we are baptized into Christ, we take the sacrament in remembrance of Him and He symbolically and spiritually that we are in Him and He in us.
Is there another reason?

[ajax]

MARKETING, PERSONAS, and SOCIAL MEDIA:

http://barerecord.blogspot.com/2013/06/ ... mment-form" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[marc]

MARKETING, PERSONAS, and SOCIAL MEDIA:

http://barerecord.blogspot.com/2013/06/ ... mment-form" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As I watched the UK video, the Spirit whispered to me that the church (spending all that money on campaigning, etc) is doing what members are not. Alma the younger, the sons of Mosiah and their brethren understood what "every member a missionary" means. The vast majority of the membership is too busy with all sorts of worldly things. Most Elders can't be bothered to even do their hometeaching.

[A Random Phrase]

Personally, I don't see a connection with Alma roaming around his country preaching, putting his life in danger, the sons of Mosiah going to a different country to preach, putting their lives in danger - - - I don't see the connection between them and "every member a missionary."

[marc]

Personally, I don't see a connection with Alma roaming around his country preaching, putting his life in danger, the sons of Mosiah going to a different country to preach, putting their lives in danger - - - I don't see the connection between them and "every member a missionary."

May I suggest reading D&C 4 and also the sixth lecture on faith?

[A Random Phrase]

Pursuing a course agreeable to the will of God, and having certain attributes that God would have us incorporate? Makes sense looking at it that way. Thanks, coach.

[brlenox]

We provide all pre-production, production, and post-production services, as well as state-of-the-art special effects and post-production facilities, closed captioning, electronic tagging, and video and audio duplication.

We are an advertising agency engaged in communications for quality life. Our people are driven by the belief that advertising can - and should - be a powerful, positive influence on the values and lives of people.

Visit us at Bonneville.com

What are your feelings, ahem, or I should say thoughts on this HeartSell(tm) approach that seems to permeate most if not all church media? It seems to be focusing on emotional reactions first and then conflating that into the effects of the Holy Ghost, which we know can be two different things.

I consider this point by President Hinckley germane to your discussion.

Some of these business interests directly serve the needs of the Church. For instance, our business is communication. We must speak with people across the world. We must speak at home to let our stand be known, and abroad to acquaint others with our work. And so we own a newspaper, the Deseret News, the oldest business institution in Utah.

We likewise own television and radio stations. These provide a voice in the communities which they serve. I may add that we are sometimes embarrassed by network television presentations. Our people do the best they can to minimize the impact of these. Gorden B. Hinckley 1999 Why We Do Some of the Things We Do https://www.lds.org/general-conference/ ... o?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[AussieOi]

The Holy Ghost is a god.

We should no mock it, or use sophisticatry, and modern day sorcery, to fabricate it.

HeartSell (tm) is evil.

To me it is like a false priest of Baal

[Lizzy60]

Thank you AussieOi. And God will not be mocked.....I believe we are heading for a bumpy ride.

[SkyBird]

Hey Sky bird though I'd probe this a bit more.

I can tell you all about Christ from the scriptures, his mission, his purpose, his atonement… but that is book learning… the letter of the law… I am trying to share another dimension of Christ, of the Holy Ghost, of the Father… The book dimension of Christ will get me into the Telestial, Terrestrial and the first two degrees of the Celestial… however, there is another dimension I call atonement in 3D.

The 3D Christ is a mystery (remember a mystery is only made known to you individually, because it is spirit to spirit that we are taught and come to understand) … we may not comprehend this now but if we seek and ask the answers will come. We are all co-equal with God/Christ (having the same innate potential to become a “God”) and co-eternal with God/Christ (we have always existed as a spirit being).

Many people see themselves as separated from God/Christ, and in a “fallen state” we are. I don’t see myself “separated” from God anymore but “connected” in every way… though I am not totally in tune with everything yet… this comes with obedience to the “god potential” within. The “god potential” within must be embraced 1st before we can ever enter “God’s” 3D dimension… The temple endowment teaches this. How many times do you hear the word “in” in the last token at the veil of the temple? There is great symbolism in this mystery! The word “in” symbolizes one of the greatest mysteries of godliness! We say our prayers “in” the name of Jesus Christ. We baptize “in” the name of… We take the sacrament “in” the name of… This is spirituality 101 if we have ears to hear and eyes to see.

The gospel of Jesus Christ is about the “inward” man, a mystery that can only come to you independently from anyone else including “God” himself! It happens only when we immerse ourselves “in” the “inward” man! There are no words to describe this experience… it’s a mystery! The mystery of Christ in you that apostle Paul talked about!

We live in a “potential universe” … all the concepts shared with us in the restoration are “potential based,” from a “spiritual perspective” we can learn what a “fullness” means, from God’s perspective, or mans. “God’s” perspective begins “in” the “inner man” and moves outward… then we embrace Him… the “holy embrace.”

I don't believe that Christs actual ministry and teachings while here in the flesh is 'the letter of the law', but are actually the core of the gospel, my foundation is grounded surely in this. I've asked you a whole bunch of questions relating to this, yet you have avoided all of them. would you care to answer them so I can understand what you are basing these beliefs. The foundational principles you have stated so far have been the lectures of faith and an opinion of Joesph Smith relating to the creation of the Gods and universe, Is it really all based on an 'If I were right" and an "I might"?

The gospel of Jesus Christ is about the “inward” man, a mystery that can only come to you independently from anyone else including “God” himself! It happens only when we immerse ourselves “in” the “inward” man! There are no words to describe this experience… it’s a mystery! The mystery of Christ in you that apostle Paul talked about!

they solved the mystery 2000 years ago. they even tell us what it is and what it means "a hope of glory...every man perfect in Christ Jesus". It's not a mystery anymore!

Many people see themselves as separated from God/Christ, and in a “fallen state” we are. I don’t see myself “separated” from God anymore but “connected” in every way… though I am not totally in tune with everything yet

I probably asked you this already. Can I ask again are you experiencing the physical manifestations/miracles of the spirit, prevalent with a secure connection with the presence of Holy Spirit as described in scripture?
I agree that when we come to Christ we are "risen with Christ" and should "seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God."and so we should "Set our affections on things above, not on things on the earth." That as we come to a real understanding of what it means to set our affections on things above, we see ourselves seated with Christ, and our focus moves from an 'as on earth' mindset looking upwards, to a 'as in heaven' reality around us, and with that shift comes the manifestations that Christ spoke of when He said, "you will do greater works than I have done".

We say our prayers “in” the name of Jesus Christ. We baptize “in” the name of… We take the sacrament “in” the name of… This is spirituality 101 if we have ears to hear and eyes to see.

It is because Christ is our intercessor with the Father, and that our way to The Father is through Him (we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous (1 john 2:1). we pray in Jesus name, we are baptized into Christ, we take the sacrament in remembrance of Him and He symbolically and spiritually that we are in Him and He in us.
Is there another reason?

It's good to ask questions... I ask them all the time but the answers you seek must not come from me but from the Holy Spirit or Ghost....

Let thy bowels also be full of charity towards all men, and to the household of faith, and let virtue garnish thy thoughts unceasingly; then shall thy confidence wax strong in the presence of God; and the doctrine of the priesthood (which is all the divine attributes of godliness and holiness of character) shall distil upon thy soul as the dews from heaven.
46 The Holy Ghost shall be thy constant companion, and thy scepter an unchanging scepter of righteousness and truth; and thy dominion shall be an everlasting dominion, and without compulsory means it shall flow unto thee forever and ever.(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 121:45 - 46)

Therefore it is given to abide in you; the record of heaven; the Comforter; the peaceable things of immortal glory; the truth of all things; that which quickeneth all things, which maketh alive all things; that which knoweth all things, and hath all power according to wisdom, mercy, truth, justice, and judgment.
62 And now, behold, I say unto you: This is the plan of salvation unto all men,(Pearl of Great Price | Moses 6:61 - 62)

by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.
(Book of Mormon | Moroni 10:5)

This is how "God" and "Christ" discovered themselves and the role they play in creation... We knew all this before we ever came to mortality and now we must restore ourselves to it again in the flesh... this is what the "restoration" is really all about!

Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.(New Testament | Matthew 7:14)

Verily, verily, I say unto you, except ye abide my law (its the circumcision of the heart) ye cannot attain to this glory.
22 For strait is the gate, and narrow the way that leadeth unto the exaltation and continuation of the lives, and few there be that find it, because ye receive me not in the world neither do ye know me.(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 132:21 - 22)

Keep asking question! Godspeed!


You are made "alive" by a power that is innate to yourself as it is with God or Christ. In this your intellect is quickened... this innate power is the potential of your spirit when you draw upon it, embrace it and become a manifestation of it... as it is with God so it is with us!

[jo1952]

It's good to ask questions... I ask them all the time but the answers you seek must not come from me but from the Holy Spirit or Ghost....

Let thy bowels also be full of charity towards all men, and to the household of faith, and let virtue garnish thy thoughts unceasingly; then shall thy confidence wax strong in the presence of God; and the doctrine of the priesthood (which is all the divine attributes of godliness and holiness of character) shall distil upon thy soul as the dews from heaven.
46 The Holy Ghost shall be thy constant companion, and thy scepter an unchanging scepter of righteousness and truth; and thy dominion shall be an everlasting dominion, and without compulsory means it shall flow unto thee forever and ever.(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 121:45 - 46)

Therefore it is given to abide in you; the record of heaven; the Comforter; the peaceable things of immortal glory; the truth of all things; that which quickeneth all things, which maketh alive all things; that which knoweth all things, and hath all power according to wisdom, mercy, truth, justice, and judgment.
62 And now, behold, I say unto you: This is the plan of salvation unto all men,(Pearl of Great Price | Moses 6:61 - 62)

by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.
(Book of Mormon | Moroni 10:5)

This is how "God" and "Christ" discovered themselves and the role they play in creation... We knew all this before we ever came to mortality and now we must restore ourselves to it again in the flesh... this is what the "restoration" is really all about!

Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.(New Testament | Matthew 7:14)

Verily, verily, I say unto you, except ye abide my law (its the circumcision of the heart) ye cannot attain to this glory.
22 For strait is the gate, and narrow the way that leadeth unto the exaltation and continuation of the lives, and few there be that find it, because ye receive me not in the world neither do ye know me.(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 132:21 - 22)

Keep asking question! Godspeed!

You are made "alive" by a power that is innate to yourself as it is with God or Christ. In this your intellect is quickened... this innate power is the potential of your spirit when you draw upon it, embrace it and become a manifestation of it... as it is with God so it is with us!

Very nice post!

[drjme]

Hey Sky bird though I'd probe this a bit more.

I can tell you all about Christ from the scriptures, his mission, his purpose, his atonement… but that is book learning… the letter of the law… I am trying to share another dimension of Christ, of the Holy Ghost, of the Father… The book dimension of Christ will get me into the Telestial, Terrestrial and the first two degrees of the Celestial… however, there is another dimension I call atonement in 3D.

The 3D Christ is a mystery (remember a mystery is only made known to you individually, because it is spirit to spirit that we are taught and come to understand) … we may not comprehend this now but if we seek and ask the answers will come. We are all co-equal with God/Christ (having the same innate potential to become a “God”) and co-eternal with God/Christ (we have always existed as a spirit being).

Many people see themselves as separated from God/Christ, and in a “fallen state” we are. I don’t see myself “separated” from God anymore but “connected” in every way… though I am not totally in tune with everything yet… this comes with obedience to the “god potential” within. The “god potential” within must be embraced 1st before we can ever enter “God’s” 3D dimension… The temple endowment teaches this. How many times do you hear the word “in” in the last token at the veil of the temple? There is great symbolism in this mystery! The word “in” symbolizes one of the greatest mysteries of godliness! We say our prayers “in” the name of Jesus Christ. We baptize “in” the name of… We take the sacrament “in” the name of… This is spirituality 101 if we have ears to hear and eyes to see.

The gospel of Jesus Christ is about the “inward” man, a mystery that can only come to you independently from anyone else including “God” himself! It happens only when we immerse ourselves “in” the “inward” man! There are no words to describe this experience… it’s a mystery! The mystery of Christ in you that apostle Paul talked about!

We live in a “potential universe” … all the concepts shared with us in the restoration are “potential based,” from a “spiritual perspective” we can learn what a “fullness” means, from God’s perspective, or mans. “God’s” perspective begins “in” the “inner man” and moves outward… then we embrace Him… the “holy embrace.”

I don't believe that Christs actual ministry and teachings while here in the flesh is 'the letter of the law', but are actually the core of the gospel, my foundation is grounded surely in this. I've asked you a whole bunch of questions relating to this, yet you have avoided all of them. would you care to answer them so I can understand what you are basing these beliefs. The foundational principles you have stated so far have been the lectures of faith and an opinion of Joesph Smith relating to the creation of the Gods and universe, Is it really all based on an 'If I were right" and an "I might"?

The gospel of Jesus Christ is about the “inward” man, a mystery that can only come to you independently from anyone else including “God” himself! It happens only when we immerse ourselves “in” the “inward” man! There are no words to describe this experience… it’s a mystery! The mystery of Christ in you that apostle Paul talked about!

they solved the mystery 2000 years ago. they even tell us what it is and what it means "a hope of glory...every man perfect in Christ Jesus". It's not a mystery anymore!

Many people see themselves as separated from God/Christ, and in a “fallen state” we are. I don’t see myself “separated” from God anymore but “connected” in every way… though I am not totally in tune with everything yet

I probably asked you this already. Can I ask again are you experiencing the physical manifestations/miracles of the spirit, prevalent with a secure connection with the presence of Holy Spirit as described in scripture?
I agree that when we come to Christ we are "risen with Christ" and should "seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God."and so we should "Set our affections on things above, not on things on the earth." That as we come to a real understanding of what it means to set our affections on things above, we see ourselves seated with Christ, and our focus moves from an 'as on earth' mindset looking upwards, to a 'as in heaven' reality around us, and with that shift comes the manifestations that Christ spoke of when He said, "you will do greater works than I have done".

We say our prayers “in” the name of Jesus Christ. We baptize “in” the name of… We take the sacrament “in” the name of… This is spirituality 101 if we have ears to hear and eyes to see.

It is because Christ is our intercessor with the Father, and that our way to The Father is through Him (we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous (1 john 2:1). we pray in Jesus name, we are baptized into Christ, we take the sacrament in remembrance of Him and He symbolically and spiritually that we are in Him and He in us.
Is there another reason?

It's good to ask questions... I ask them all the time but the answers you seek must not come from me but from the Holy Spirit or Ghost....

Let thy bowels also be full of charity towards all men, and to the household of faith, and let virtue garnish thy thoughts unceasingly; then shall thy confidence wax strong in the presence of God; and the doctrine of the priesthood (which is all the divine attributes of godliness and holiness of character) shall distil upon thy soul as the dews from heaven.
46 The Holy Ghost shall be thy constant companion, and thy scepter an unchanging scepter of righteousness and truth; and thy dominion shall be an everlasting dominion, and without compulsory means it shall flow unto thee forever and ever.(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 121:45 - 46)

Therefore it is given to abide in you; the record of heaven; the Comforter; the peaceable things of immortal glory; the truth of all things; that which quickeneth all things, which maketh alive all things; that which knoweth all things, and hath all power according to wisdom, mercy, truth, justice, and judgment.
62 And now, behold, I say unto you: This is the plan of salvation unto all men,(Pearl of Great Price | Moses 6:61 - 62)

by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.
(Book of Mormon | Moroni 10:5)

This is how "God" and "Christ" discovered themselves and the role they play in creation... We knew all this before we ever came to mortality and now we must restore ourselves to it again in the flesh... this is what the "restoration" is really all about!

Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.(New Testament | Matthew 7:14)

Verily, verily, I say unto you, except ye abide my law (its the circumcision of the heart) ye cannot attain to this glory.
22 For strait is the gate, and narrow the way that leadeth unto the exaltation and continuation of the lives, and few there be that find it, because ye receive me not in the world neither do ye know me.(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 132:21 - 22)

Keep asking question! Godspeed!


You are made "alive" by a power that is innate to yourself as it is with God or Christ. In this your intellect is quickened... this innate power is the potential of your spirit when you draw upon it, embrace it and become a manifestation of it... as it is with God so it is with us!

Sky bird, Again, you avoid answering the questions. Why won't you answer them? Is it because you don't believe Christ is the only way to be reconciled with the Father? Why won't you answer these so very important questions that determine if you are a disciple of Christ?
The Spirit has already answered me for these question I asked you. Why won't you?

[ajax]

I thought this was funny:
http://web.archive.org/web/200406070116 ... ghost.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

LDS Church Patents Holy Ghost®
By Stephen Carter

SALT LAKE CITY—Surprising the entire Christian world, the LDS Church announced today that it has patented the Holy Ghost®. The Holy Ghost® will now be felt only in and around LDS services, authorized missionary encounters, and Mormon-sponsored television ads.

The Holy Ghost®, also known as the Holy Spirit, the Comforter, and the Paraclete, has been notoriously unpredictable in the past, coming upon people of all creeds in a variety of circumstances. Now the Holy Ghost® is where he belongs, say church officials.

“The Holy Ghost® and his influence clearly belong only in LDS Church–sponsored events, since this is God’s only true church,” said church spokesman Mark S. Walcott.

As the patent holder, Walcott said the church will insist on its proprietary ownership of the Holy Ghost® and will require any unlicensed users of the Holy Ghost® to register and pay a fee or else suffer litigation.

“However, we are giving all religions, both Christian and non-Christian, a six-month grace period wherein they can either license with us or discontinue use of the Holy Spirit completely,” Walcott said.

Much of the Christian world expressed outrage at the patent, and the Catholic Church is taking up the gauntlet. “If anyone deserves the patent on the Holy Ghost®, it is obviously the church that Christ himself set up through Peter,” said Marcus Barberra, head of legal affairs for the Vatican. “We will fight this patent in the American courts till the Second Coming, if needs be.”

LDS Church chief attorney M. David Scottsdale doesn’t think the Catholic Church’s appeals will hold up in court. “No offense,” said Scottsdale, “but their concept of the Holy Ghost® is, shall we say, an earlier version put together when mankind’s knowledge of heavenly things was decidedly incomplete. But with the update of modern revelation, we have the real McCoy. The Catholic Church’s version is clearly obsolete and ineffectual prior art.”

Some other LDS law practitioners have pointed out that since the Holy Ghost® is the ultimate testifier of truth, the Catholic Church will be hard pressed to find a better witness to back up their case. “And then if they do call on the Holy Ghost® to witness, well, they’ll have to license him first, which would prove that they believe him to be the true Spirit, backing up our case beautifully,” said Albert P. Hossman, a law professor at Brigham Young University.

To protect the patent, the LDS Church is already preparing investigative missionaries at its training center in Provo, Utah, to sniff out unlicensed usage of the Holy Ghost®. “It’s a simple job, really,” said Elder Andy Tutter, a budding investigative missionary. “We go to non-Mormon church meetings, and if we feel the Spirit we check for registration. If we can’t find any authentic credentials, we phone the piracy into Salt Lake City, and headquarters will immediately inform the offending church of its violation. If they continue to violate the patent, we’ll have no choice but to pursue legal action.”

United States Senator Orrin Hatch (R-UT), a member of the LDS Church, has suggested that the church think about installing a satellite-enhanced destruct-o-ray that can be used on offending churches all over the globe. “Boom! Pow! Kazap! Right in the kisser!” said the Senator. “Holy Ghost® piracy will be a thing of the past.”

The lighter side of an investigative missionary’s job is to allow non-Mormons to experience the Holy Ghost® on a trial basis. The potential user must officially register for the companionship of the Holy Ghost® before the evaluation period is up, or the Spirit will be automatically removed.

Members of the LDS Church shouldn’t notice any difference in the Holy Ghost® when the patent goes into effect, said church officials. “His presence will remain undiminished in fully-licensed LDS ward houses,” said Walcott. “Unless, of course, tithe payment drops below 75 percent in any ward occupying the meetinghouse.”