HeartSell(tm) vs The Holy Ghost

[freedomforall]

Freedom Fighter,

SkyBird and I are not in "cahoots". We do, however, recognize what the other is experiencing. By sharing, we are able to feast on the Truth being revealed to us by the Holy Spirit; each in accordance with how we are experiencing Truth and in accordance with what we are ready to receive.

1 Corinthians 2:12-14

12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Here is the single verse of the NT which inspired Joseph and heralded the Restoration.

James 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

God gives to ALL; not just some...not just one group and not another...He gives to ALL. Why do you believe that God has now changed and only gives to the LDS Church? Is it because you choose to believe what Her leaders are telling you? Are you placing their teachings between you and God?

jo

Where did you come up with this nonsense? I said no such thing. I said that righteous Saints can have the Holy Ghost as a constant companion. And that He will not reside in unholy temples (wicked people). And i said that the Holy Ghost will help someone seeking answers in many instances. Again, did you read my post? I also know there will be people of all faiths (sects) living on the earth when Christ is here during the Millennium. Does this sound like only Mormons will be allowed? Not hardly.

OBTW, just how does God answer questions, if not by the Holy Ghost? Also, did you know that God answers prayers through other people at times, like a friend, a Bishop, or even a Prophet? But you may miss something because, after all, we're just humans, we don't count.

[freedomforall]

freedomfighter...

Why take offence to the truth that is in and through all things. Our LDS faith is not the vessel of all truth...

First of all, is your name Jo, or are you merely trying to reinforce the untrue statements directed at me? You know: (You are not aware that you, yourself, have broken the first Great Commandment. You are an unholy temple who will not be able to be cleansed from the wickedness you participate in. No matter how often or how sincere your efforts are to repent of sin, until you repent of forgetting your first love which breaks the first great commandment, you will not be a holy temple. Place God first!) Was this statement literally or figuratively. And this: (Additionally, when you or other members of the Church claim exclusivity to the Holy Ghost, you are closing the gates of heaven to anyone who does not "join" with your belief system. In this you are a Pharisee by virtue of closing the gates of heaven.) If it was not meant literally, it should have been worded differently. The word "you" is first person. The word "one" can mean anybody. See the difference?

Second, it depends on whose version of truth one listens to. If those statements were meant literally, I am justified in taking offense because it is not true. I have personally experienced the cleansing power of the Atonement, something many people cannot lay claim to. And when accusations like Jo put in a post for all to read, sounds to me like Jo wants everybody to "join" that belief system...a belief system that allows for unfounded insinuations, slander and innuendos. What kind of "spiritual walk" is that?

If you and Jo want to be in cahoots that's fine but don't spread nonsense with my name attached to it, or anyone else's for that matter, without warrant. God will judge poor judgement of others as well.

I hope this is as clear as it needs to be.

3 Nephi 13:33
33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things shall be added unto you.

And here is a little advice:

Doctrine and Covenants 11:21
21 Seek not to declare my word, but first seek to obtain my word, and then shall your tongue be loosed; then, if you desire, you shall have my Spirit and my word, yea, the power of God unto the convincing of men.

I usually have bumped heads with FF, but I have to agree here. Some of this stuff is bordering New age, Sin being a 'delusion' or 'perception', oneness with a communal spirit, choosing hedonism over the Loving God (SSA comments) and using unconditional love as justification. Jo I agree with some of what you say, but some I don't and that is fine. but when venturing out on 'the borderlines' of the word, and dealing with interpretations outside the revealed word, maybe we shouldn't cut people down who stay in the borderlines.

I appreciate your candor, drjme. Butting heads is one thing, but jo's type of "spiritual walk" I can do without, lacking in humility. charity and true understanding...and the twisting of words and sentences to suit the need of putting others down.

[skmo]

Now the Prophet Joseph Smith stated

The Holy Ghost has no other effect than pure intelligence. It is more powerful in expanding the mind, enlightening the understanding, and storing the intellect with present knowledge...(TPJS pg. 149)

Well, that's a statement that could be taken in any number of ways, the Spirit affects many people differently. Joseph said a lot of things, some of them were crystal clear, some of them were clouded in interpretive levels, and some were even screwy. I don’t in any way disagree with this statement, but how it gets applied seems to me to be a variable thing.

Howard W Hunter stated

"I get concerned when it appears that strong emotion or free-flowing tears are equated with the presence of the Spirit. Certainly the Spirit of the Lord can bring strong emotional feelings, including tears, but that outward manifestation ought not to be confused with the presence of the Spirit itself.

True. This has nothing to do, however, with how emotion is applied in spreading a message. President Hunter is simply pointing out that someone emotional isn’t necessarily a sign of the Spirit. It’d be like saying BYU’s coach shouldn’t equate high QB passing numbers as a successful program. It may have everything to do with winning and it may have nothing to do with winning.

~~~~~~~~~~~

I have no problem with packaging products so they are appealing. If you are bereft of the fuzzy wuzzies that many people feel, that’s fine, but mocking those who do seems haughty. Emotions are powerful things, they can open the mind and heart to influence. If that can be used to further spread the message of the gospel, great. Plenty of guys at college use emotion to sway girls to do things they shouldn’t (and are far too successful at it.) Animal rights activists are masters at using emotion to convince people to be eco-zombie-terrorists. Why not use emotions for a positive means rather than a negative one?

Jesus was the best example of how to spread the gospel. There was only one Jesus, however. Many of the early missionaries would convert whole congregations at once, but I’d point out that those were very different times, and I don’t see things like this happening in the kinds of places where Heartsell would be used. If emotions can be used well to help people find the gospel, allow them to. If you don’t like it, feel free to ignore it, but mocking its use seems a petty, I’m-better-than-you-simple-folks attitude.

[jo1952]

Where did you come up with this nonsense? I said no such thing. I said that righteous Saints can have the Holy Ghost as a constant companion. And that He will not reside in unholy temples (wicked people). And i said that the Holy Ghost will help someone seeking answers in many instances. Again, did you read my post? I also know there will be people of all faiths (sects) living on the earth when Christ is here during the Millennium. Does this sound like only Mormons will be allowed? Not hardly.

OBTW, just how does God answer questions, if not by the Holy Ghost? Also, did you know that God answers prayers through other people at times, like a friend, a Bishop, or even a Prophet? But you may miss something because, after all, we're just humans, we don't count.

I came up with it because you look to the leaders of the Church for direction. I came up with it because you believe that the LDS are the only ones who can bestow the Holy Ghost to become a constant companion. This is not a bad thing. It is one of the methods God uses; He uses ALL of our choices for His purposes. You have mentioned others: friends, a Bishop, or even a Prophet---I would add even a [p]rophet and I would add anyone who represents spiritual leadership to us, or even who do not. Indeed, it is hearing the testimony of others that we can be drawn to God. We can even be drawn to a personal relationship with God and experiencing the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost, through the words or actions of the Atheist. After all, God's purposes never fail. So, whether we are serving God or whether we are serving satan; we are ultimately serving God's purposes even though we were not serving God directly---even if our intentions were to try to convince another that there is no god.

There are people who have the Holy Ghost as a constant companion who are not members of the Church. They were more than merely given answers when they sought them. They have the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost because they are living righteously. The LDS Church does not have exclusivity to "bestowing" the Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghost becomes the constant companion of anyone living righteously.

Going through the visual physical ritual of "receiving" the Holy Ghost is just that; i.e., a visual physical ritual. IOW, it is symbolic. There is no real power to bestow the Holy Ghost....the visual physical ritual places the Holy Ghost into our mind's eye. If we perceive that we have the companionship of the Holy Ghost, we are more easily led by the Holy Ghost until such time as the Holy Ghost actually does become our constant companion. The "laying of hands" is not necessary to enjoy the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost.

Father is constant and faithful in giving us Truth, and then testing us. On Pentecost, Father freely gave the Comforter. Then, He immediately gave us a test to see if we would accept this free gift. He gave us the "laying on of hands". And immediately mankind started to exclude the free gift of the Holy Ghost from any who did not ALSO receive the laying on of hands; thus they made the gift NOT free. The gift became conditional. The Holy Ghost could now not become a constant companion (a truly free gift) UNLESS you agreed to their terms. Now man has gone so far as to ask for a sign as to whether or not they have actually received the gift. So God uses the test itself to give man the sign which they want. The Church is bound to the sign....to the test...to the perception of the laying on of hands as a requirement to be able to receive the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost. Inasmuch as Father would perfer that we not ask for signs, He will nevertheless give us signs if that is what we desire.

Love,

jo

[EmmaLee]

I am not offended because I associate myself with the "truth" ... and the "truth" is never offended... it stands on its own merits... on a spiritual foundation that does not change or wavier. I simply smile and honor and respect the "potential god" I see within you and all people who are having experiences here in mortality.

Yes, but when you start introducing ideas that are outside of the revealed word, the words of our Saviour, and then prophets, both LDS and Non LDS, then it's a time for warning bells to ring, not just be amazed and accept these things being introduced to your mind and look down on others who don't share your view, while claiming it as 'truth' and then making subtle condescending reference that others have as lesser understanding of the Gospel.
The gospel is a gospel of Christ Centred outward action, not inwards focused introspection, one focusing on Him Changing us to who we need to be in Him, the other focuses on attempting to fix ourselves, by increasing our 'knowledge' of mysteries, and missing the opportunity to become like Him. We can spend our lives pursuing the mysteries of God, yet be absolutely, completely unprofitable servants because our focus is on our own pursuit of increased intelligence and enlightenment, instead of just doing as He did, Loving as He did, serving as He did.
He came and gave an example of the Divine nature that we seek to attain. It is Unconditional Love, that you love those that despise you, serve those that hate you, Have mercy on those that deny you, and uplift those 'below' you. these are not inward thoughts (only hearing), but real life actions out in the real world (doing).

I am far from TBM, and separate from orthodoxy, but one thing I will not do is declare something contrary to the revealed Word. As Christ himself said "if any declare more or less than this it is not of me". So if you want to belittle (even with nice words) someone who doesn't share something that you have seen, especially if it is outside of the revealed word, isn't it better to say, "this is what I believe", instead of accusingly saying "you don't comprehend truth"?

Excellent and greatly needed post, drjme; thank you for being here, for understanding truth, and for standing up for it. I've noticed a couple of newer posters, in almost every post they make (which is a LOT), condemn, accuse, and judge others (even to hell on some occasions), and yet they don't seem to see that THEY are doing EXACTLY what they condemn others of doing. Ironic, to say the least. Perhaps they should take a long look in the mirror before posting dozens of times every day, judging and condemning all those who don't agree with them. Whole lot of self-righteous pride on this forum of late. Your last paragraph above is spot-on, exactly right, drjme; thanks again.

[EmmaLee]

I usually have bumped heads with FF, but I have to agree here. Some of this stuff is bordering New age, Sin being a 'delusion' or 'perception', oneness with a communal spirit, choosing hedonism over the Loving God (SSA comments) and using unconditional love as justification. Jo I agree with some of what you say, but some I don't and that is fine. but when venturing out on 'the borderlines' of the word, and dealing with interpretations outside the revealed word, maybe we shouldn't cut people down who stay in the borderlines.

I appreciate your candor, drjme. Butting heads is one thing, but jo's type of "spiritual walk" I can do without, lacking in humility. charity and true understanding...and the twisting of words and sentences to suit the need of putting others down.

+1 to both of you.

[freedomforall]

Where did you come up with this nonsense? I said no such thing. I said that righteous Saints can have the Holy Ghost as a constant companion. And that He will not reside in unholy temples (wicked people). And i said that the Holy Ghost will help someone seeking answers in many instances. Again, did you read my post? I also know there will be people of all faiths (sects) living on the earth when Christ is here during the Millennium. Does this sound like only Mormons will be allowed? Not hardly.

OBTW, just how does God answer questions, if not by the Holy Ghost? Also, did you know that God answers prayers through other people at times, like a friend, a Bishop, or even a Prophet? But you may miss something because, after all, we're just humans, we don't count.

I came up with it because you look to the leaders of the Church for direction. I came up with it because you believe that the LDS are the only ones who can bestow the Holy Ghost to become a constant companion. This is not a bad thing. It is one of the methods God uses; He uses ALL of our choices for His purposes. You have mentioned others: friends, a Bishop, or even a Prophet---I would add even a [p]rophet and I would add anyone who represents spiritual leadership to us, or even who do not. Indeed, it is hearing the testimony of others that we can be drawn to God. We can even be drawn to a personal relationship with God and experiencing the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost, through the words or actions of the Atheist. After all, God's purposes never fail. So, whether we are serving God or whether we are serving satan; we are ultimately serving God's purposes even though we were not serving God directly---even if our intentions were to try to convince another that there is no god.

There are people who have the Holy Ghost as a constant companion who are not members of the Church. They were more than merely given answers when they sought them. They have the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost because they are living righteously. The LDS Church does not have exclusivity to "bestowing" the Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghost becomes the constant companion of anyone living righteously.

Going through the visual physical ritual of "receiving" the Holy Ghost is just that; i.e., a visual physical ritual. IOW, it is symbolic. There is no real power to bestow the Holy Ghost....the visual physical ritual places the Holy Ghost into our mind's eye. If we perceive that we have the companionship of the Holy Ghost, we are more easily led by the Holy Ghost until such time as the Holy Ghost actually does become our constant companion. The "laying of hands" is not necessary to enjoy the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost.

Father is constant and faithful in giving us Truth, and then testing us. On Pentecost, Father freely gave the Comforter. Then, He immediately gave us a test to see if we would accept this free gift. He gave us the "laying on of hands". And immediately mankind started to exclude the free gift of the Holy Ghost from any who did not ALSO receive the laying on of hands; thus they made the gift NOT free. The gift became conditional. The Holy Ghost could now not become a constant companion (a truly free gift) UNLESS you agreed to their terms. Now man has gone so far as to ask for a sign as to whether or not they have actually received the gift. So God uses the test itself to give man the sign which they want. The Church is bound to the sign....to the test...to the perception of the laying on of hands as a requirement to be able to receive the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost. Inasmuch as Father would perfer that we not ask for signs, He will nevertheless give us signs if that is what we desire.

Love,

jo

So are you telling us that these scriptures are false?

4 We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Doctrine and Covenants 138:33
33 These were taught faith in God, repentance from sin, vicarious baptism for the remission of sins, the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands,

Doctrine and Covenants 49:14
14 And whoso doeth this shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, by the laying on of the hands of the elders of the church.

Doctrine and Covenants 33:11,15
11 Yea, repent and be baptized, every one of you, for a remission of your sins; yea, be baptized even by water, and then cometh the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost.
15 And whoso having faith you shall confirm in my church, by the laying on of the hands, and I will bestow the gift of the Holy Ghost upon them.

[jo1952]

I usually have bumped heads with FF, but I have to agree here. Some of this stuff is bordering New age, Sin being a 'delusion' or 'perception', oneness with a communal spirit, choosing hedonism over the Loving God (SSA comments) and using unconditional love as justification. Jo I agree with some of what you say, but some I don't and that is fine. but when venturing out on 'the borderlines' of the word, and dealing with interpretations outside the revealed word, maybe we shouldn't cut people down who stay in the borderlines.

I appreciate your candor, drjme. Butting heads is one thing, but jo's type of "spiritual walk" I can do without, lacking in humility. charity and true understanding...and the twisting of words and sentences to suit the need of putting others down.

+1 to both of you.

We see what we are ready to see. There is no shame in this. Christ's disciples, when speaking of the spiritual did not do so from a viewpoint of being "better" than others. However, their words were perceived that way by the masses. As a result, they often fled in secret to escape physical harm. Things we do not yet understand make us fearful, ESPECIALLY when we place a leader between ourselves and God. Go to any apologetic website promoting anti-LDSism, and you will see this same type of reaction to anyone who is LDS posting there. They claim the LDS poster feels superior to the anti-LDS poster. They are afraid of what they do not understand; they project their fear the very same way that you are projecting toward us by labeling that fear as our imagined air of superiorty.

There has been no condemnation made by Frank or I. We do point out where others have condemned those who do not agree with them. We do teach love; against all odds...we teach love. We are not sharing anything "new age". We are sharing the Two Great Commandments. We share what is being revealed as we study scripture. We observe where posters are on their journey. We believe that ALL OF US are going to make it. Is this condemnation? I say no. In fact, it is much more than some posters here express; as some posters here claim that those who don't repent are blowing it. They have told us that we need to think about where we are; something we all do no matter where we are on our journey. We do that because all we can see is from the point in our journey we happen to be. What else can we do but see from where we are standing? Posters do not feel comfortable when others speak outside of the limit which they have placed on themselves. IOW, those who only feel comfortable listening to our leaders do not feel comfortable around those who are seeking for Truth beyond that boundary. It was Joseph Smith who taught us to look everywhere for Truth. "Everywhere" includes beyond what our leaders are teaching. We share our belief that everyone is going to make it. We share hope for all of mankind whatever they have done...are doing...wherever we are or whereever they are; we are all going to make it.

Concerning going beyond the revealed word. The Holy Spirit reveals Truth to whomever seeks Truth. Truth never ends. I am not going to wait to have Truth revealed through our leaders. I am going directly to God. If you wish to condemn me for doing this; then so be it. After years and years of not even realizing that I had forgotten my first love, I have remembered Him. I promised God when I was baptized that I would follow Christ. I did not promise to follow our leaders; I promised to follow Christ.

We share our experiences in the hopes that something we say may trigger a seeking which will result in a better understanding of Truth, even result in having more Truth being received. This is what the Apostles and Christ's disciples did in the ancient church. We are God's servants, we are among Christ's disciples today. So, we share like the ancient disciples shared and served God. The only thing that is different is that we are able to do so through the virtual world of the Internet. I daresay that if we were to do so in person with those who are participating on this Forum that there are some we would need to protect ourselves from. They would have no fear of being physically harmed by us. However, we would secretly escape in order not to be harmed.

In order for the Holy Spirit to even be able to reveal more Truth, we must keep our minds open. God is not going to force us to accept Truth. If you are content with the amount of Truth which you have, you will not be able to receive any more Truth.

Peace,

jo

[jo1952]

So are you telling us that these scriptures are false?

4 We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Doctrine and Covenants 138:33
33 These were taught faith in God, repentance from sin, vicarious baptism for the remission of sins, the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands,

Doctrine and Covenants 49:14
14 And whoso doeth this shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, by the laying on of the hands of the elders of the church.

Doctrine and Covenants 33:11,15
11 Yea, repent and be baptized, every one of you, for a remission of your sins; yea, be baptized even by water, and then cometh the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost.
15 And whoso having faith you shall confirm in my church, by the laying on of the hands, and I will bestow the gift of the Holy Ghost upon them.

No, I am not saying that they are false. I am saying that they do not have the power that we think they do. They are symbolic. The power is in our perception. Baptism is a physical ritual of our promise to God that we will follow Christ. In return, God symbolically gives us the Holy Ghost through the physical ritual of the laying on of hands. It is our perception which gives power to those words. They have no ability to accomplish either our following Christ, or having the Holy Ghost as our constant companion unless we do the things necessary for those things to be accomplished. If baptism helps us to follow Christ, then God's purposes for us to follow Christ have been accomplished. If "receiving the Holy Ghost by the laying of hands" helps us to actually have the Holy Ghost as our constant companion, then God's purposes have been served through that physical ritual. Every time we take the Sacrament, we renew our baptismal covenant. We remember that we went through the ritual of baptism by water. This empowers us to be able to actually follow Christ. Because we perceive that we have received the Holy Ghost, we can be empowered to get to the point where the Holy Ghost can become our constant companion.

Let us consider this. Why are we still bound to the Law and to sin which being bound to the Law imputes on us? Hasn't Christ already fulfilled the Law? It is our perception that fools us. We perceive that we are still bound; even though we are not. We are not really bound because Christ has already fulfilled the Law. We are bound because we perceive we are bound. While we are bound we cannot receive Christ's gift.

jo

[SkyBird]

I saw the world of men moving towards a center location, a circle and in the middle of the circle was God who went by many names, depending upon the experiences and traditions of your life. Everyone wanted to enter the circle where God was. But before any could enter that sacred circle, there was an alter that held them back from going forward. Everyone had their own alter and everyone knew they had to sacrifice things on the altar and be willing to walk away from them and never return to them in order to live with God. There were people from all faiths and beliefs kneeling at their own altar, placing whatever they thought was necessary in order to enter Gods presence and live with Him. The only ones I saw entering the circle and living with God, were the ones that placed everything upon the altar except one thing.

There was one thing God did not want us to give up and leave on the altar. I knew what that was, but to give up everything was most difficult and yet so simple.

I saw that we all come into mortality with the one thing that could bring us back into Fathers presence if we develop it, manifest it in our thoughts, words and deeds…it would ensure us a return back into the presence of God, for we would be just like Him. It does not matter whether we are adults or infants, normal or abnormal, handicapped or any spectrum of disorders; when we leave this world we all have to place everything on the altar but one thing if we desire to enter Gods presence. All those who come to earth and receive a body carry the genes of mortality… we are connected spiritually because of this choice we all made, but to become “one” with the Father we must do His will as Christ sought to do His will. “Will” in this scriptural reference is a “spiritual connection” to Galatians 5: 22-26 and 2 Peter: 4-12 and St John 17 to mention a few.

You are wondering what the one thing is that God does not want us to place on the altar and walk away from. It is simple and difficult. We are all prisoners of “conditioning thinking” here in mortality and all the beliefs associated with it. We must be willing to place our “conditional thinking” taught in the schools of “mortality” on the altar with all its conditions that we have been taught to believe in and therefor take only one thing with us into the presence of God. I must mention something; the “presence of God” is always with us and so is the altar. There is no where you can go where the “presence of God” is not. It is always there and we all have learned to ignore it through conditional thinking and beliefs. You see God lives in an unconditional dimension of creation and we live in a conditional dimension most of the time, yet the unconditional is always available to us. There are moments we wake up, but we are quick to return to the conditions of mortality!

Let me describe the one thing God does not want us to leave at the altar and bring with us into His presence. It is unconditional love with its arms of unconditional mercy (our ability to unconditionally repent and forgive all); it also includes unconditional justice (which is our ability to leave all judgment, prejudice emotion and blame on the altar) and lastly we must embrace unconditional moral virtue with its train of unconditional attributes of godliness and holiness.

This is what Paul called the “mystery of Christ” in you! Why is Christ a mystery? Why is unconditional love a mystery? Why is unconditional honesty a mystery? Why is unconditional virtue a mystery? Why is unconditional mercy a mystery? Why is unconditional grace a mystery… and on with every other unconditional attribute of godliness and holiness of character… why are these all a mystery? Because only you can develop them and therefor become “one” with God! No one else can do it for you. They cannot be conferred upon you by any religion or even God Himself cannot bestow them upon you. Each of us must develop them ourselves… make them our thought, our words, our deeds... our beliefs! I want to know "Gods" thoughts... His beliefs that make Him who He is. I can't learn this from anyone else... not even a prophet. This knowledge must come from my Father in Heaven alone or my Savior Jesus Christ... no one else can give me this but He whom I worship!

If all you want is conditional salvation based on the conditions of religion, then D&C 76 speaking of the Terrestrial and Telestial glories is willing and ready to take all under these conditions.

True worshipers of the Father worship “in spirit” and “in truth.”

“But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.”(New Testament | John 4:23)

Be sure to read this from our own LDS Bible Dictionary… under the word “Holiness”

Holiness. According to the O.T. things or places were holy that were set apart for a sacred purpose; the opposite of holy is therefore common or profane (1 Sam. 21:5; Ezek. 22:26; 42:20; 44:23; 48:13–15). Similarly a holy person meant one who held a sacred office. The Israelites were a holy people because they stood in a special relationship to Jehovah. Under the guidance of the Prophets it was seen that what distinguished Jehovah from the gods of the heathen was his personal character. The word holy therefore came to refer to moral character (Lev. 11:44; 19:2; 21:8; Isa. 6:3–8). Israel must be holy in character because the God of Israel was holy (Jer. 7:4–7; cf. Matt. 5:48). The Law of Holiness (Lev. 17–26) shows how the attempt was made by means of ceremonial observances [priesthood ordinances] to secure this holiness of character. The attempt failed because the later Jews observed the letter and neglected the spirit; they attached more importance to the ceremonial than to the moral; and the result was a lapse into formalism. But in the writings of the Prophets it is clearly laid down that the value of worship in the eyes of God depends upon the personal character of the worshipper (LDS Bible Dictionary, Holiness)

[priesthood ordinances] added by me to draw attention to how the “attempt” is made via “ceremonial observance” to secure holiness of character to ancient and modern Israel (symbolically all mankind). The “attempt” will always fail, because it is impossible to make something “holy” from the outside in, it must always be from the inside out! So the “attempt” through ordinances can only provide an “awakening” to the inner potential of man and that is why we have them…to “awaken” us spiritually! That is why the “priesthood may be conferred upon us…but when we undertake to…exercise control or …compulsion…in any degree of unrighteousness…the heavens withdraw…amen to the priesthood or the authority of that man… “only by” the principles (attributes of godliness) … “by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned; by kindness…(choosing) virtue (to) garnish thy thoughts unceasingly” do we enter “the presence” of god/God and our “Ghost” is then made “Holy,” in this constant companionship…and “ without compulsory means it shall flow” (D&C 121:36-46) to anyone, members or not!

[jo1952]

I saw the world of men moving towards a center location, a circle and in the middle of the circle was God who went by many names, depending upon the experiences and traditions of your life. Everyone wanted to enter the circle where God was. But before any could enter that sacred circle, there was an alter that held them back from going forward. Everyone had their own alter and everyone knew they had to sacrifice things on the altar and be willing to walk away from them and never return to them in order to live with God. There were people from all faiths and beliefs kneeling at their own altar, placing whatever they thought was necessary in order to enter Gods presence and live with Him. The only ones I saw entering the circle and living with God, were the ones that placed everything upon the altar except one thing.

There was one thing God did not want us to give up and leave on the altar. I knew what that was, but to give up everything was most difficult and yet so simple.

I saw that we all come into mortality with the one thing that could bring us back into Fathers presence if we develop it, manifest it in our thoughts, words and deeds…it would ensure us a return back into the presence of God, for we would be just like Him. It does not matter whether we are adults or infants, normal or abnormal, handicapped or any spectrum of disorders; when we leave this world we all have to place everything on the altar but one thing if we desire to enter Gods presence. All those who come to earth and receive a body carry the genes of mortality… we are connected spiritually because of this choice we all made, but to become “one” with the Father we must do His will as Christ sought to do His will. “Will” in this scriptural reference is a “spiritual connection” to Galatians 5: 22-26 and 2 Peter: 4-12 and St John 17 to mention a few.

You are wondering what the one thing is that God does not want us to place on the altar and walk away from. It is simple and difficult. We are all prisoners of “conditioning thinking” here in mortality and all the beliefs associated with it. We must be willing to place our “conditional thinking” taught in the schools of “mortality” on the altar with all its conditions that we have been taught to believe in and therefor take only one thing with us into the presence of God. I must mention something; the “presence of God” is always with us and so is the altar. There is no where you can go where the “presence of God” is not. It is always there and we all have learned to ignore it through conditional thinking and beliefs. You see God lives in an unconditional dimension of creation and we live in a conditional dimension most of the time, yet the unconditional is always available to us. There are moments we wake up, but we are quick to return to the conditions of mortality!

Let me describe the one thing God does not want us to leave at the altar and bring with us into His presence. It is unconditional love with its arms of unconditional mercy (our ability to unconditionally repent and forgive all); it also includes unconditional justice (which is our ability to leave all judgment, prejudice emotion and blame on the altar) and lastly we must embrace unconditional moral virtue with its train of unconditional attributes of godliness and holiness.

This is what Paul called the “mystery of Christ” in you! Why is Christ a mystery? Why is unconditional love a mystery? Why is unconditional honesty a mystery? Why is unconditional virtue a mystery? Why is unconditional mercy a mystery? Why is unconditional grace a mystery… and on with every other unconditional attribute of godliness and holiness of character… why are these all a mystery? Because only you can develop them and therefor become “one” with God! No one else can do it for you. They cannot be conferred upon you by any religion or even God Himself cannot bestow them upon you. Each of us must develop them ourselves… make them our thought, our words, our deeds... our beliefs! I want to know "Gods" thoughts... His beliefs that make Him who He is. I can't learn this from anyone else... not even a prophet. This knowledge must come from my Father in Heaven alone or my Savior Jesus Christ... no one else can give me this but He whom I worship!

If all you want is conditional salvation based on the conditions of religion, then D&C 76 speaking of the Terrestrial and Telestial glories is willing and ready to take all under these conditions.

True worshipers of the Father worship “in spirit” and “in truth.”

“But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.”(New Testament | John 4:23)

[priesthood ordinances] added by me to draw attention to how the “attempt” is made via “ceremonial observance” to secure holiness of character to ancient and modern Israel (symbolically all mankind). The “attempt” will always fail, because it is impossible to make something “holy” from the outside in, it must always be from the inside out! So the “attempt” through ordinances can only provide an “awakening” to the inner potential of man and that is why we have them…to “awaken” us spiritually! That is why the “priesthood may be conferred upon us…but when we undertake to…exercise control or …compulsion…in any degree of unrighteousness…the heavens withdraw…amen to the priesthood or the authority of that man… “only by” the principles (attributes of godliness) … “by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned; by kindness…(choosing) virtue (to) garnish thy thoughts unceasingly” do we enter “the presence” of god/God and our “Ghost” is then made “Holy,” in this constant companionship…and “ without compulsory means it shall flow” (D&C 121:36-46) to anyone, members or not!

Awesome, SkyBird!

[jo1952]

As you shared by SkyBird:

True worshipers of the Father worship “in spirit” and “in truth.”

“But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.”(New Testament | John 4:23)

We can see not only that "True worshipers of the Father worship 'in spirit' and 'in truth'", but also that the hour is now when "true" worshipers ARE worshiping the Father in spirit and in truth. IOW, there ARE true worshipers right now; which is also telling us that it is possible for all of us to become true worshipers right now. We don't need to wait for others to show us how. The following verse is very telling:

John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

IOW, there is no other way for a true worshiper TO worship God. The true worshiper MUST worship Him in spirit and in truth. As such, if we are not worshiping God in spirit and in truth, then we are not a true worshiper. This should help lay to rest distorted beliefs surrounding a spiritual walk. If we are not worshiping God in spirit and in truth, we need to seek worshiping Him in this way. Don't allow anyone else to be in your way of being able to become a true worshiper.

"New age" worship is not pointing to a spiritual walk WITH GOD. If a study is done, we can discover that "new age" belief leaves God out of the picture. The spiritual walk of which Frank and I speak, is the walk being described in scripture...this walk, this worshiping, cannot take place without God; and this is the only way for a believer to be a true worshiper of God.

Love,

jo

[drjme]

As you shared by SkyBird:

True worshipers of the Father worship “in spirit” and “in truth.”

“But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.”(New Testament | John 4:23)

We can see not only that "True worshipers of the Father worship 'in spirit' and 'in truth'", but also that the hour is now when "true" worshipers ARE worshiping the Father in spirit and in truth. IOW, there ARE true worshipers right now; which is also telling us that it is possible for all of us to become true worshipers right now. We don't need to wait for others to show us how. The following verse is very telling:

John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

IOW, there is no other way for a true worshiper TO worship God. The true worshiper MUST worship Him in spirit and in truth. As such, if we are not worshiping God in spirit and in truth, then we are not a true worshiper. This should help lay to rest distorted beliefs surrounding a spiritual walk. If we are not worshiping God in spirit and in truth, we need to seek worshiping Him in this way. Don't allow anyone else to be in your way of being able to become a true worshiper.

"New age" worship is not pointing to a spiritual walk WITH GOD. If a study is done, we can discover that "new age" belief leaves God out of the picture. The spiritual walk of which Frank and I speak, is the walk being described in scripture...this walk, this worshiping, cannot take place without God; and this is the only way for a believer to be a true worshiper of God.

Love,

jo

Yes, I have reviewed new age for quite a few years now, which is why I feel I can comment on these issues.
New age doesn't leave God out of the picture, it leaves Christ out of the picture. This is the subtle deceit of it. We know that Christ is the only way to the father, new age teaches that there are many ways to the father, espousing unconditional love and tolerance as the way to become one with God. This is a falsity. Christ is the only way to be reconciled to God, no amount of unconditional love will give us salvation, it is Christ in us that guarantees us salvation. While these dreams are nice and uplifting, there are a number of points that specifically relate to new age beliefs. As Christians it is not up to us to redefine Christs words, but to work within them ,now I'm not talking about being under prophets, I'm talking about taking the entirety of Christs words (his actual ministry) and working within them.

Edit: the reason that new age doesn't leave god out of the picture, yet leaves Christ out of the picture, is because the fake god of that movement is lucifer! If you don't believe me, trace all new age beliefs back to Helena Blavatsky and you will see.
It is the absolute imitation of our Gods plan, but excludes Christ.

Who fought against Christs plan?
Who wants Gods glory?
Who is the great liar and imitator and deceiver?

[drjme]

I saw the world of men moving towards a center location, a circle and in the middle of the circle was God who went by many names, depending upon the experiences and traditions of your life. Everyone wanted to enter the circle where God was. But before any could enter that sacred circle, there was an alter that held them back from going forward. Everyone had their own alter and everyone knew they had to sacrifice things on the altar and be willing to walk away from them and never return to them in order to live with God. There were people from all faiths and beliefs kneeling at their own altar, placing whatever they thought was necessary in order to enter Gods presence and live with Him. The only ones I saw entering the circle and living with God, were the ones that placed everything upon the altar except one thing.

There was one thing God did not want us to give up and leave on the altar. I knew what that was, but to give up everything was most difficult and yet so simple.

I saw that we all come into mortality with the one thing that could bring us back into Fathers presence if we develop it, manifest it in our thoughts, words and deeds…it would ensure us a return back into the presence of God, for we would be just like Him. It does not matter whether we are adults or infants, normal or abnormal, handicapped or any spectrum of disorders; when we leave this world we all have to place everything on the altar but one thing if we desire to enter Gods presence. All those who come to earth and receive a body carry the genes of mortality… we are connected spiritually because of this choice we all made, but to become “one” with the Father we must do His will as Christ sought to do His will. “Will” in this scriptural reference is a “spiritual connection” to Galatians 5: 22-26 and 2 Peter: 4-12 and St John 17 to mention a few.

You are wondering what the one thing is that God does not want us to place on the altar and walk away from. It is simple and difficult. We are all prisoners of “conditioning thinking” here in mortality and all the beliefs associated with it. We must be willing to place our “conditional thinking” taught in the schools of “mortality” on the altar with all its conditions that we have been taught to believe in and therefor take only one thing with us into the presence of God. I must mention something; the “presence of God” is always with us and so is the altar. There is no where you can go where the “presence of God” is not. It is always there and we all have learned to ignore it through conditional thinking and beliefs. You see God lives in an unconditional dimension of creation and we live in a conditional dimension most of the time, yet the unconditional is always available to us. There are moments we wake up, but we are quick to return to the conditions of mortality!

Let me describe the one thing God does not want us to leave at the altar and bring with us into His presence. It is unconditional love with its arms of unconditional mercy (our ability to unconditionally repent and forgive all); it also includes unconditional justice (which is our ability to leave all judgment, prejudice emotion and blame on the altar) and lastly we must embrace unconditional moral virtue with its train of unconditional attributes of godliness and holiness.

This is what Paul called the “mystery of Christ” in you! Why is Christ a mystery? Why is unconditional love a mystery? Why is unconditional honesty a mystery? Why is unconditional virtue a mystery? Why is unconditional mercy a mystery? Why is unconditional grace a mystery… and on with every other unconditional attribute of godliness and holiness of character… why are these all a mystery? Because only you can develop them and therefor become “one” with God! No one else can do it for you. They cannot be conferred upon you by any religion or even God Himself cannot bestow them upon you. Each of us must develop them ourselves… make them our thought, our words, our deeds... our beliefs! I want to know "Gods" thoughts... His beliefs that make Him who He is. I can't learn this from anyone else... not even a prophet. This knowledge must come from my Father in Heaven alone or my Savior Jesus Christ... no one else can give me this but He whom I worship!

If all you want is conditional salvation based on the conditions of religion, then D&C 76 speaking of the Terrestrial and Telestial glories is willing and ready to take all under these conditions.

True worshipers of the Father worship “in spirit” and “in truth.”

“But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.”(New Testament | John 4:23)

Be sure to read this from our own LDS Bible Dictionary… under the word “Holiness”

Holiness. According to the O.T. things or places were holy that were set apart for a sacred purpose; the opposite of holy is therefore common or profane (1 Sam. 21:5; Ezek. 22:26; 42:20; 44:23; 48:13–15). Similarly a holy person meant one who held a sacred office. The Israelites were a holy people because they stood in a special relationship to Jehovah. Under the guidance of the Prophets it was seen that what distinguished Jehovah from the gods of the heathen was his personal character. The word holy therefore came to refer to moral character (Lev. 11:44; 19:2; 21:8; Isa. 6:3–8). Israel must be holy in character because the God of Israel was holy (Jer. 7:4–7; cf. Matt. 5:48). The Law of Holiness (Lev. 17–26) shows how the attempt was made by means of ceremonial observances [priesthood ordinances] to secure this holiness of character. The attempt failed because the later Jews observed the letter and neglected the spirit; they attached more importance to the ceremonial than to the moral; and the result was a lapse into formalism. But in the writings of the Prophets it is clearly laid down that the value of worship in the eyes of God depends upon the personal character of the worshipper (LDS Bible Dictionary, Holiness)

[priesthood ordinances] added by me to draw attention to how the “attempt” is made via “ceremonial observance” to secure holiness of character to ancient and modern Israel (symbolically all mankind). The “attempt” will always fail, because it is impossible to make something “holy” from the outside in, it must always be from the inside out! So the “attempt” through ordinances can only provide an “awakening” to the inner potential of man and that is why we have them…to “awaken” us spiritually! That is why the “priesthood may be conferred upon us…but when we undertake to…exercise control or …compulsion…in any degree of unrighteousness…the heavens withdraw…amen to the priesthood or the authority of that man… “only by” the principles (attributes of godliness) … “by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned; by kindness…(choosing) virtue (to) garnish thy thoughts unceasingly” do we enter “the presence” of god/God and our “Ghost” is then made “Holy,” in this constant companionship…and “ without compulsory means it shall flow” (D&C 121:36-46) to anyone, members or not!

These dreams are nice and uplifting but the fact that you have dreams about "godly" things doesn't necessarily mean that they are truth.
1. the first paragraph says that all people of different beliefs and traditions come before God, they leave all things on the altar except one thing. You say this one thing that we don't put on the alter is unconditional love and this is what makes us one with God. This is specifically new age belief, why? Because Christ is the condition of salvation, not our ability to love and tolerate unconditionally. The only thing that enables us to be reconciled to God is Christ alone. It is all Him, He is our Intercessor with the father. Anything more or less than this is not of Him.
2. The mystery of Christ you speak of is no mystery, it was revealed to the apostles, it was a mystery to those before them who were under law. And the verses after those words tell us what it is:

which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:......... Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

3. You speak that no one else can can develop the attributes for you except yourself. This isn't correct, because of the mystery of Christ in us that you just spoke about. The hope and glory of Christ in us changes us, it is literally HIM (via HG) working in us, not ourselves! It is something we cannot do for ourselves, and where we all fall short as we are all guaranteed to, it is the hope and glory of the saviour that reconciles us to be one with God. Nothing we do or believe or attempt to live will take us to where God is, it is all HIM!
4. Again you make the claim that our spirits become the Holy Ghost, by being in the presence of God. it is not possible to dwell in the presence of God, it is not possible to be led by Him if you diminish the real role of the Holy Spirit, Which is what you do when you claim "the constant companionship with the presence of God makes us Holy Ghost".
5. You claim that I appear to be stuck in "conditional thinking", "religion" and "ordinance" etc. your assumption are quite flawed. I claim and proclaim Christ, He is the only way.
You seem to see yourself higher than others as a "true worshiper", yet you seem to think it is your own abilities that will get you to God, you minimise the role of the Saviour and the Holy Ghost, and attribute the changes to become one with God as your doing.

These are just a few of the issues I can see from looking at your dreams and ideas.

[SkyBird]

What is the reason for the restoration? (to teach the people the true nature of God, His attributes, character and the perfecting of them so they can become like the Father and Christ). What was the main topic of Joseph Smith? (The character of God and Christ). He spoke more on the nature of God than any other concept. Why? Because Christianity, like ancient Israel and modern day Israel are following the same pattern ...into formalism. Yes I speak of unconditional love... because within is embrace is the very foundation of who we are and the sooner we can move away from "conditional love," which is what most people today and anciently built their foundation upon... the better off society will be.

President James E Faust said: "Our long term objective...is the building of character in the members of the Church,... rescuing all that is finest down deep inside of them, and bringing to flower and fruitage the latent richness of the spirit, which after all is the mission and purpose and reason for being of the Church." (Strengthening the Inner Self, Ensign, February 2003). What is the reason and purpose of this restored Church?

I nor jo have said anything to diminish the sacred mission of our Father in Heaven or Christ... or the role or function of the Holy Ghost or who or what it is. A lot more could be shared and our hearts and minds could be enlightened even more. I am so grateful for revelation!

Consider that though we are mortal being right now and our whole culture is based on "conditions"... ponder for a moment the eternal principle of opposition. The opposite of being conditional in our thinking is to be "unconditional" in our thinking.

Speaking unto you that you may naturally understand; but unto myself my works have no end, neither beginning; but it is given unto you that ye may understand, because ye have asked it of me and are agreed.
34 Wherefore, verily I say unto you that all things unto me are spiritual, and not at any time have I given unto you a law which was temporal; neither any man, nor the children of men; neither Adam, your father, whom I created.
35 Behold, I gave unto him that he should be an agent unto himself; and I gave unto him commandment, but no temporal commandment gave I unto him, for my commandments are spiritual; they are not natural nor temporal, neither carnal nor sensual.
(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 29:33 - 35)

Do you think the Lord is trying to get us to see things differently, maybe from his perspective?

Consider D&C 93
And it shall come to pass, that if you are faithful you shall receive the fulness of the record of John.
19 I give unto you these sayings that you may understand and know how to worship, and know what you worship, that you may come unto the Father in my name, and in due time receive of his fulness.
(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 93:18 - 19)

This is very important to receiving a fullness... we learn that it is not "who" we worship that brings us to a fullness; but "how to worship" and "what you worship" that a fullness comes. This "fullness" is speaking of the Celestial or the glory that the Father and Son enjoy. If we are seeking a "who" to worship we will miss the "fullness" D&C 93 is trying to get us to understand. It really is "how" and "what" we worship that counts, if we desire to be Gods... its not the "who!"


Do you know how the 1st God was created? Or who created the 1st God? Maybe it doesn't even matter to you right now... and that is okay. You might ponder that for a few years and you may come up with the right conclusion. All I will tell you now is what you should already know that "as man is now, God once was and as God is now, man may become." The principles of Exaltation is a matter of "becoming" in our nature what God has become already... nothing more or nothing less.

"It is scarcely necessary here to observe what we have previously noticed, that the glory of the Father and the Son have is because they are just and holy beings; and if they were lacking in one attribute or perfection which they have, the glory which they have never could be enjoyed by them, for it requires them to be precisely what they are in order to enjoy it" (Lecture on Faith 7: 15). All mankind is the same way... we must follow the same pattern to receive this fullness!

We are all co-equal and co-eternal with God himself... we just need to bring our "fruit" ... our nature's to be like them, the same way they did it as noted in D&C 93... by knowing "what" and "how" to worship!

[drjme]

What is the reason for the restoration? (to teach the people the true nature of God, His attributes, character and the perfecting of them so they can become like the Father and Christ). What was the main topic of Joseph Smith? (The character of God and Christ). He spoke more on the nature of God than any other concept. Why? Because Christianity, like ancient Israel and modern day Israel are following the same pattern ...into formalism. Yes I speak of unconditional love... because within is embrace is the very foundation of who we are and the sooner we can move away from "conditional love," which is what most people today and anciently built their foundation upon... the better off society will be.

I have no problem with the concept of unconditional love, it is our goal to be without judgement. But this ability is a divine attribute of Our Lord. He is the initiator of of this ability, it is in Him and of Him. You say only we can achieve this ability for ourselves. If you don't believe it is Him then you believe something else.

President James E Faust said: "Our long term objective...is the building of character in the members of the Church,... rescuing all that is finest down deep inside of them, and bringing to flower and fruitage the latent richness of the spirit, which after all is the mission and purpose and reason for being of the Church." (Strengthening the Inner Self, Ensign, February 2003). What is the reason and purpose of this restored Church?

And how's that long term objective going? Quite badly I think. No institution can do this for someone through laws and rules, I think you agree with this, again it's Christ in us, but I attribute it all to Him, not of myself.

I nor jo have said anything to diminish the sacred mission of our Father in Heaven or Christ... or the role or function of the Holy Ghost or who or what it is. A lot more could be shared and our hearts and minds could be enlightened even more. I am so grateful for revelation!

Not specifically, but your post insinuate such things. Please re read them.

Consider that though we are mortal being right now and our whole culture is based on "conditions"... ponder for a moment the eternal principle of opposition. The opposite of being conditional in our thinking is to be "unconditional" in our thinking.

gods love is unconditional, but salvation has conditions, this is a reality. He has said this through all dispensations. So 'conditions', are still valid in the kingdom of God. The concept of this reality being conditional, therefore He is the opposite and therefore unconditional is not consistent.

Speaking unto you that you may naturally understand; but unto myself my works have no end, neither beginning; but it is given unto you that ye may understand, because ye have asked it of me and are agreed.
34 Wherefore, verily I say unto you that all things unto me are spiritual, and not at any time have I given unto you a law which was temporal; neither any man, nor the children of men; neither Adam, your father, whom I created.
35 Behold, I gave unto him that he should be an agent unto himself; and I gave unto him commandment, but no temporal commandment gave I unto him, for my commandments are spiritual; they are not natural nor temporal, neither carnal nor sensual.
(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 29:33 - 35)

Do you think the Lord is trying to get us to see things differently, maybe from his perspective?

the relationship between the physical and the spiritual. The spirit of the law compared to the letter of the law, and the gulf of difference between the two. One is physical one is spiritual+physical. When we live in the physical law it is to death, when we live in the spiritual it permeates the physical and is to Life.
My belief is that they as we adhere to the spiritual we must ensure it permeates the physical as the literal building of the kingdom of God around Us. This looks like something real. our purpose here is to bring the kingdom here, not spend all our time waiting and wanting to get there. This is what I mean by Christ centred outward actions as opposed to inwards focused introspection, chasing and attempting to understand the mysteries. One of them looks like something in your life and the lives of those around you and all you come in contact with, the other leaves you an unprofitable servant because all you focused on was an inwards pursuit to understand.One brings about the divine nature, it is living the example that Christ set. (being a doer of the word) the other gives one ‘knowledge’ but leaves one selfishly raised above others around them, thinking their knowledge is more important (a hearer of the word).

Consider D&C 93
And it shall come to pass, that if you are faithful you shall receive the fulness of the record of John.
19 I give unto you these sayings that you may understand and know how to worship, and know what you worship, that you may come unto the Father in my name, and in due time receive of his fulness.
(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 93:18 - 19)

This is very important to receiving a fullness... we learn that it is not "who" we worship that brings us to a fullness; but "how to worship" and "what you worship" that a fullness comes. This "fullness" is speaking of the Celestial or the glory that the Father and Son enjoy. If we are seeking a "who" to worship we will miss the "fullness" D&C 93 is trying to get us to understand. It really is "how" and "what" we worship that counts, if we desire to be Gods... its not the "who!"

OH no no, the WHO is VERY important. Ok, so "what" do you worship and "how" do you worship, if "who" you worship is not the important aspect. As all I'm getting from this is that you need to worship "the fullness". Scripture repeatedly states who we worship, we have accounts of even the angels worshipping the most high God. The focus on Who we worship and Why he worship is so important. Otherwise you could get the wrong guy! Again you’ve taken one scripture and discarded the rest.

Do you know how the 1st God was created? Or who created the 1st God? Maybe it doesn't even matter to you right now... and that is okay. You might ponder that for a few years and you may come up with the right conclusion. All I will tell you now is what you should already know that "as man is now, God once was and as God is now, man may become." The principles of Exaltation is a matter of "becoming" in our nature what God has become already... nothing more or nothing less.

Oh yes here we go. I don’t know, I don’t understand. Thank goodness you have spent years pondering how the first God came into being.
Thankfully it has nothing to do towards my salvation.
I don’t dispute becoming as God is, I just understand it is not of my doing, otherwise what need have I of a saviour if It is of my doing?
Even in the attempt at ‘perfection’ to gain these godly attributes, you still fall so far short of the mark, still are so unclean and powerless to dwell in the presence of the father, that you need the saviour to purge these things from you. Don’t you see how you belittle His sacrifice when you say it is your doing, that no one else can do this except yourself? If he purges us of every unclean thing to make us spotless, don’t you see Him as the author of all goodness in us?

"It is scarcely necessary here to observe what we have previously noticed, that the glory of the Father and the Son have is because they are just and holy beings; and if they were lacking in one attribute or perfection which they have, the glory which they have never could be enjoyed by them, for it requires them to be precisely what they are in order to enjoy it" (Lecture on Faith 7: 15). All mankind is the same way... we must follow the same pattern to receive this fullness!

We are all co-equal and co-eternal with God himself... we just need to bring our "fruit" ... our nature's to be like them, the same way they did it as noted in D&C 93... by knowing "what" and "how" to worship!

But see here we are again. ‘Our’ fruit. The verses you use to justify fruit are speaking of fruit of the spirit. Read in context they are fruit of the Holy Spirit, Of Christ working in us. Not our own doing. Where the HG, the spirit of the Lord isn’t, are places of darkness, it shows the effect of the spirit, regardless of the will of people. That’s why scriptures states that when the spirit isn’t with man, dark things happen. The HG is paramount, the Good influencer. Giving compulsion to do Good.
Are we coequal and co eternal right now? How are we made this way? By our fruit? Or by Christ?

[freedomforall]

Great responses, drjme.

[SkyBird]

You really don't understand what I am trying to share. I think you are trying to hold onto something I have already immersed myself into. And I am not saying that to make me appear better than you... I see us both as co-equal and co-eternal with each other. Its about how I see "oneness" with the Lord and the Father and you see it differently... that okay, we are on different spiritual paths. Let me put it this way and maybe you will see where I am coming from... but then again you may not... either way may the Lord bless you in your journey to Him.

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
(New Testament | Matthew 7:21 - 23)

In the Inspired version of the Bible it makes it clear and says: "And then will I profess unto them, Ye never know me: depart from me ye that work iniquity."

Notice the difference! What is it teaching you? Where is the emphasis in "knowing the Lord?" It is obvious the Lord already know us. Is it in the "forms and structures" of our religion we get to know Him? Or is it how we, (me and you) choose to commit ourselves to the "how" and "what" we worship? The attributes and character of godliness! The Lord Himself says: "Be holy, for I am holy." He is not saying He is going to give us holiness because we lack it... no, no, no. He is asking us to develop what is already innate in us, our potential to be holy as he is holy.

I don't see myself lacking in any qualities to become like my Savior Jesus Christ or my Father in Heaven... I live in the abundance of them. I am not blind to who I am or who your are potentially because it is a choice to perfect the attributes of godliness that potentially dwells within each of us... it is we (individually) who must connect to the "god" within us and therefor by so doing we connect to the "God" who is exalted outside us! This is the process of becoming "one" with God... to this I testify with all my heart, might, mind and strength!

Like Paul, I like to say: "I live, yet not I but Christ liveth in me." How do I interpret the "I" in this statement? The "I" is the "natural man" whom I place on the altar and sacrifice and walk away from. How do I interpret "Christ" in this statement? He is the little "god" within me clothed in the attributes of godliness, the fruits of the Spirit, the Holy Ghost, divine nature, love unfeigned... all these mean the same to me... it is the potential of god inside me that the Mormon faith teaches me in Sunday School, Priesthood meeting, Sacrament meeting... yes all these SYMOBOLS are internalized in my mind, heart and soul... I have baptized and immersed myself into them... and all this is to glorify Elohim... whom Joseph Smith said means a plurality of Gods... or Spiritual Beings who have walked the walk and talked the talk!

[freedomforall]

What is the reason for the restoration? (to teach the people the true nature of God, His attributes, character and the perfecting of them so they can become like the Father and Christ).

Let's compare your words with scripture, which is official church doctrine.

Alma 40:22-26
22 Yea, this bringeth about the restoration of those things of which has been spoken by the mouths of the prophets.
23 The soul shall be restored to the body, and the body to the soul; yea, and every limb and joint shall be restored to its body; yea, even a hair of the head shall not be lost; but all things shall be restored to their proper and perfect frame.
24 And now, my son, this is the restoration of which has been spoken by the mouths of the prophets—
25 And then shall the righteous shine forth in the kingdom of God.
26 But behold, an awful death cometh upon the wicked; for they die as to things pertaining to things of righteousness; for they are unclean, and no unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of God; but they are cast out, and consigned to partake of the fruits of their labors or their works, which have been evil; and they drink the dregs of a bitter cup.

Alma 41:2-7, 12-15
2 I say unto thee, my son, that the plan of restoration is requisite with the justice of God; for it is requisite that all things should be restored to their proper order. Behold, it is requisite and just, according to the power and resurrection of Christ, that the soul of man should be restored to its body, and that every part of the body should be restored to itself.
3 And it is requisite with the justice of God that men should be judged according to their works; and if their works were good in this life, and the desires of their hearts were good, that they should also, at the last day, be restored unto that which is good.
4 And if their works are evil they shall be restored unto them for evil. Therefore, all things shall be restored to their proper order, every thing to its natural frame—mortality raised to immortality, corruption to incorruption—raised to endless happiness to inherit the kingdom of God, or to endless misery to inherit the kingdom of the devil, the one on one hand, the other on the other—
5 The one raised to happiness according to his desires of happiness, or good according to his desires of good; and the other to evil according to his desires of evil; for as he has desired to do evil all the day long even so shall he have his reward of evil when the night cometh.
6 And so it is on the other hand. If he hath repented of his sins, and desired righteousness until the end of his days, even so he shall be rewarded unto righteousness.
7 These are they that are redeemed of the Lord; yea, these are they that are taken out, that are delivered from that endless night of darkness; and thus they stand or fall; for behold, they are their own judges, whether to do good or do evil.
12 And now behold, is the meaning of the word restoration to take a thing of a natural state and place it in an unnatural state, or to place it in a state opposite to its nature?
13 O, my son, this is not the case; but the meaning of the word restoration is to bring back again evil for evil, or carnal for carnal, or devilish for devilish—good for that which is good; righteous for that which is righteous; just for that which is just; merciful for that which is merciful.
14 Therefore, my son, see that you are merciful unto your brethren; deal justly, judge righteously, and do good continually; and if ye do all these things then shall ye receive your reward; yea, ye shall have mercy restored unto you again; ye shall have justice restored unto you again; ye shall have a righteous judgment restored unto you again; and ye shall have good rewarded unto you again.
15 For that which ye do send out shall return unto you again, and be restored; therefore, the word restoration more fully condemneth the sinner, and justifieth him not at all.

We cannot redeem ourselves. We are dependent on Christ to save us and to restore good for good, or evil for evil. We cannot have it both ways.

Here's what happens to the unrepentant because of the restoration.

Mosiah 27:31
31 Yea, every knee shall bow, and every tongue confess before him. Yea, even at the last day, when all men shall stand to be judged of him, then shall they confess that he is God; then shall they confess, who live without God in the world, that the judgment of an everlasting punishment is just upon them; and they shall quake, and tremble, and shrink beneath the glance of his all-searching eye.

Mosiah 2:38
38 Therefore if that man repenteth not, and remaineth and dieth an enemy to God, the demands of divine justice do awaken his immortal soul to a lively sense of his own guilt, which doth cause him to shrink from the presence of the Lord, and doth fill his breast with guilt, and pain, and anguish, which is like an unquenchable fire, whose flame ascendeth up forever and ever.

[freedomforall]

October 2010, Receive the Holy Ghost
David A. Bednar

http://www.lds.org/general-conference/2 ... t?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[AussieOi]

No no. Do you have faith to_not_receive the Holy Ghost?

oh the folly

[freedomforall]

Moroni 10:4

4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

Moro. 7:9
9 And likewise also is it counted evil unto a man, if he shall pray and not with real intent of heart; yea, and it profiteth him nothing, for God receiveth none such.

[SkyBird]

Joseph Smith... "If men do not comprehend the true nature and character of God they do not comprehend themselves."

[SkyBird]

Sanctify yourselves therefore, and be ye holy: for I am the LORD your God.
(Old Testament | Leviticus 20:7)

5 And Joshua said unto the people, Sanctify yourselves: for to morrow the LORD will do wonders among you.
(Old Testament | Joshua 3:5)

5 And Joshua said unto the people, Sanctify yourselves: for to morrow the LORD will do wonders among you.
(Old Testament | Joshua 3:5)

Purge ye out the iniquity which is among you; sanctify yourselves before me;
(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 43:11)

And ye are to be taught from on high. Sanctify yourselves and ye shall be endowed with power, that ye may give even as I have spoken.
(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 43:16)

Therefore, sanctify yourselves that your minds become single to God, and the days will come that you shall see him; for he will unveil his face unto you, and it shall be in his own time, and in his own way, and according to his own will.
(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 88:68)

Wherefore, prepare ye, prepare ye, O my people; sanctify yourselves; gather ye together, O ye people of my church, upon the land of Zion, all you that have not been commanded to tarry.
(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 133:4)

[SkyBird]

I sanctify myself by "putting on" (manifesting) (personifying) in my thoughts, words, and deeds the attributes, character and perfections of godliness and as I do so I become "one" with the Father, Son and H.G.

This is how the 1st "god" became "God"... think about it... no ponder it!