HeartSell(tm) vs The Holy Ghost

[AussieOi]

I don't think Deseret (TM) can pull off replicating that

I'm sure they sell books that would purport to, though

All these last pages put to shame this false Holy ghost HeartSell (TM) tries to summon and replicate

[freedomforall]

It's an exclusive claim on the Holy Ghost, No other 'church' has the holy ghost, but they may have the 'light of Christ'. I disagree with this.

So which one will teach a Gentile that Jesus is the Christ, "The Eternal God?"

The Holy Ghost sent by the father of course! but this is an absolute truth amongst all religions, not exclusive to LDS which Is why the HG will manifest it as truth to anyone who is searching.

2 Nephi 26:11-13
11 For the Spirit of the Lord will not always strive with man. And when the Spirit ceaseth to strive with man then cometh speedy destruction, and this grieveth my soul.
12 And as I spake concerning the convincing of the Jews, that Jesus is the very Christ, it must needs be that the Gentiles be convinced also that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God;
13 And that he manifesteth himself unto all those who believe in him, by the power of the Holy Ghost; yea, unto every nation, kindred, tongue, and people, working mighty miracles, signs, and wonders, among the children of men according to their faith.

I think people of most religions can experience the power of the Holy Ghost at some time, or perhaps more than once, in their life according to their faith. But the Gift of the Holy Ghost is to have Him as a constant companion.

I agree, but the wording in the definition is making that exclusive claim on the HG, it is saying what people of other religions experience is only the light of Christ, not the Holy Ghost, because only the LDS church has claim on the legal authority to administer the Holy Ghost.
this is what I disagree with. 'the light of Christ' in this definition is like coining a term and applying a definition to fit a preconceived idea, placing a limitiation on all others who seek christ, by saying they will only experience the light of Christ and not the Holy Ghost unless they come into the church.
The Holy Ghost confirms truth. The Saviour is absolute truth, and the Holy Ghost manifest this to all who seek Him, regardless of religion.

I have to agree, because it is the Holy Ghost that witnesses to a pre-convert that the Book of Mormon is true or that the church is true. He is the guide to all truth. he witnesses of the Father and the Son, the bottom line to conversion.

[freedomforall]

It's an exclusive claim on the Holy Ghost, No other 'church' has the holy ghost, but they may have the 'light of Christ'. I disagree with this.

The Holy Ghost sent by the father of course! but this is an absolute truth amongst all religions, not exclusive to LDS which Is why the HG will manifest it as truth to anyone who is searching.

2 Nephi 26:11-13
11 For the Spirit of the Lord will not always strive with man. And when the Spirit ceaseth to strive with man then cometh speedy destruction, and this grieveth my soul.
12 And as I spake concerning the convincing of the Jews, that Jesus is the very Christ, it must needs be that the Gentiles be convinced also that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God;
13 And that he manifesteth himself unto all those who believe in him, by the power of the Holy Ghost; yea, unto every nation, kindred, tongue, and people, working mighty miracles, signs, and wonders, among the children of men according to their faith.

I think people of most religions can experience the power of the Holy Ghost at some time, or perhaps more than once, in their life according to their faith. But the Gift of the Holy Ghost is to have Him as a constant companion.

I agree, but the wording in the definition is making that exclusive claim on the HG, it is saying what people of other religions experience is only the light of Christ, not the Holy Ghost, because only the LDS church has claim on the legal authority to administer the Holy Ghost.
this is what I disagree with. 'the light of Christ' in this definition is like coining a term and applying a definition to fit a preconceived idea, placing a limitiation on all others who seek christ, by saying they will only experience the light of Christ and not the Holy Ghost unless they come into the church.
The Holy Ghost confirms truth. The Saviour is absolute truth, and the Holy Ghost manifest this to all who seek Him, regardless of religion.

I would like to remind us that the following constitutes WHO, exactly, is Christ's church:

D&C 10:67 Behold, this is my doctrine—whosoever repenteth and cometh unto me, the same is my church.

And here are those who are against His church and who are NOT of His church:

D&C 10:68 Whosoever declareth more or less than this, the same is not of me, but is against me; therefore he is not of my church.

IOW, ALL those who repent and come to Christ, ARE His church. They don't even need to be baptized. It does not matter what the name a physical church is known by for the members of that church to be Christ's church. It DOES matter if someone declares more or less than repentance and coming to Christ; because those who do so are not of Christ....they are against Christ....and, therefore, they are NOT of His church.

The most recent out-pouring of the Holy Spirit where manifestations were like those spoken of in the NT and in the BoM, was at the time the Kirland Temple was dedicated. I would offer that the reason we have not seen these manifestations is because the LDS Church has since that time been declaring "more than this". Declaring exclusivity to the Holy Ghost is prideful and false. The Holy Ghost has been given to the entire earth.

jo[/quote]



Do you remember that the Holy Ghost will not reside in unholy temples, (wicked humans)? He won't always reside with Mormons that don't love God with all their mind, might and strength, and keep the commandments. The Light of Christ was given to all mankind but is not the Holy Ghost.

[marc]

Moroni 7 (especially v. 16-20)

[Lone Star Patriot]

If I were to invite the "Godhead" to dinner I would put two plates (One for the Father and One for the Son) on the table...and if I were going to eat with them I would put a 3rd plate down. That's because the H.G. is the "mind" and/or "will" of the Father and the Son, or to be more specific it is their divine nature. In this reality the H.G. is not a "john doe" ... It is a way of living, of becoming. Think about the logic... can two righteous spirits enter the same mortal body? ... no it is contrary to the divine plan... that's why we cast out spirits who are trying to enter a body that is meant for only one spirit... in fact take a 1830 dictionary that was available in Joseph Smith's time and it will say a "personage" has reference to the attributes or character of an individual. Lectures on Faith is clear on this as well. As I mentioned before, the word "Holy" is an adjective defining a noun (a person, place or thing) or our spirit that has "holy" characteristic's or attributes that it is manifesting. This makes perfect sense scripturally. Stephen being stoned was filled with the H.G. (holiness of character) and looked up and saw the Father and Son. No one in the scriptures has ever seen a H.G. and described it as a "man" moving about as a spirit being. Joseph Smith saw in vision the Father and Son... he did not see a third spiritual being standing anywhere near them. Any other description of the H.G. being a spirit being in the Mormon culture is opinion and not scriptural at all. Spiritual experience teaches this truth... but you are free to believe what you want.

Skybird,

This is very well stated. You are exactly right about our conception of the H.G. being opinion, and I'd go so far as to say, shaped by our Mormon culture and traditions. It is interesting to note how our ideas of the Godhead have changed. This is a good article on Mormon doctrine. http://www.mormonismi.net/pdf/Reconstru ... xander.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There is a section that specifically discusses how they went about to set and define a single concept of deity. Apparently, before the exegesis of 1915, not everyone agreed on the nature of the Godhead. One of the results of this work, was to remove the Lectures on Faith from the D&C.

Interestingly, I find that when people try and describe how a personage can dwell within more than one person at a time, their explanations are very similar to those of main stream Christianity describing the trinity. How can a single personage dwell within you and me both at the same time, and then multiply that by a billion, or more.....

A far more simple and plain doctrine is that it is our spirit or ghost that can be made holy. Our spirit truly does bare record of the Father and the Son, and all that we have lived prior to coming here is contained in the record that is still within our spirit.

It is exactly the doctrine described by the Savior in John 17 in the intercessory prayer.

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. (John, Chapter 17)

[jo1952]

I would like to remind us that the following constitutes WHO, exactly, is Christ's church:

D&C 10:67 Behold, this is my doctrine—whosoever repenteth and cometh unto me, the same is my church.

And here are those who are against His church and who are NOT of His church:

D&C 10:68 Whosoever declareth more or less than this, the same is not of me, but is against me; therefore he is not of my church.

IOW, ALL those who repent and come to Christ, ARE His church. They don't even need to be baptized. It does not matter what the name a physical church is known by for the members of that church to be Christ's church. It DOES matter if someone declares more or less than repentance and coming to Christ; because those who do so are not of Christ....they are against Christ....and, therefore, they are NOT of His church.

The most recent out-pouring of the Holy Spirit where manifestations were like those spoken of in the NT and in the BoM, was at the time the Kirland Temple was dedicated. I would offer that the reason we have not seen these manifestations is because the LDS Church has since that time been declaring "more than this". Declaring exclusivity to the Holy Ghost is prideful and false. The Holy Ghost has been given to the entire earth.

jo

Do you remember that the Holy Ghost will not reside in unholy temples, (wicked humans)? He won't always reside with Mormons that don't love God with all their mind, might and strength, and keep the commandments. The Light of Christ was given to all mankind but is not the Holy Ghost.

The First Great Commandment is to love God with all of our heart, with all of our soul and with all of our mind. (BTW, I am curious....based upon your comment, I am wondering if you believe that only Mormons are able to keep this commandment?) When we make our personal commitment to follow Christ by virtue of a public, physical display of baptism by water---and be clear that these individuals are already of His church before they are baptized---this represents our spiritual promise to God. God is our FIRST love; the Greatest Commandment of the Two Greatest Commandments lists God FIRST. He is our first love. "Seek ye FIRST the Kingdom of God"....do we see the pattern here? Who are the ones who get to come to the earth with Christ when He returns? The Church of the FIRSTborn. They are ones who are in the FIRST resurrection. Promises made to the children of Israel were made to those who were born FIRST. The sacrifices which were acceptable to the Lord were the FIRST to be born. We hear about first fruits. "First" is everywhere!!

Now let us look at how the members of the Church not only desire to be led by a prophet, they place Her leaders upon pedestals seeking their guidance first. They are waiting to hear from the leaders to determine what they are allowed to believe....how to interpret scripture...waiting to learn of more Truth, waiting upon every word that comes out of the mouth of the prophet, rather than waiting upon every word that the Holy Ghost would reveal to them personally. We make our baptismal promises with God; NOT with the Church. The moment a member of a physical church places a leader between themselves and God, they have forgotten their first love; they have abandoned the very member of the Godhead whom they promised Father that they would follow. In this way they are personally denying Christ.

Here are YOUR words: He won't always reside with Mormons that don't love God with all their mind, might and strength, and keep the commandments. Well, the Holy Ghost will not reside with the member of ANY physical church who has placed a leader between themselves and God. You are not aware that you, yourself, have broken the first Great Commandment. You are an unholy temple who will not be able to be cleansed from the wickedness you participate in. No matter how often or how sincere your efforts are to repent of sin, until you repent of forgetting your first love which breaks the first great commandment, you will not be a holy temple. Place God first!

Additionally, when you or other members of the Church claim exclusivity to the Holy Ghost, you are closing the gates of heaven to anyone who does not "join" with your belief system. In this you are a Pharisee by virtue of closing the gates of heaven.

Love,

jo

[natasha]

I have read this thread and many others that recently seem to end up the same. I must say, I joined the Church when I was 16....That was 55 years ago. I don't recall anyone EVER telling me that anyone is between me and the Savior. Nor have I even been instructed to worship the Prophet. Rather...I believe we are blessed with leadership who give us instructions on how to best live our lives and seek to become more like the Savior. Sure, sometimes they talk about things that I already know, but often in different ways that give me a better perspective. I have always been told that the "Church" is the vehicle through which the Gospel is taught. It is "organized" to better serve its four fold mission....which mission I believe will endeavor all of us to become more Christ like. It appears to me that Pres. Packer was correct when he told us the three things that would vex the Church the most in coming years (and I believe this talk was given 15 years ago)..one was the "intellectuals". Sometimes I think there are those who "intellectualize" the Gospel to the point that I don't recognize it! The Savior taught in parables (stories) that most everyone could understand. I don't think for a moment that He wants it to be hard to understand. I don't recall which one of the general authorities said it, I just remember it was said: "The brethren will always speak simply to be understood, and simply to not be misunderstood."

[jo1952]

I have read this thread and many others that recently seem to end up the same. I must say, I joined the Church when I was 16....That was 55 years ago. I don't recall anyone EVER telling me that anyone is between me and the Savior. Nor have I even been instructed to worship the Prophet. Rather...I believe we are blessed with leadership who give us instructions on how to best live our lives and seek to become more like the Savior. Sure, sometimes they talk about things that I already know, but often in different ways that give me a better perspective. I have always been told that the "Church" is the vehicle through which the Gospel is taught. It is "organized" to better serve its four fold mission....which mission I believe will endeavor all of us to become more Christ like. It appears to me that Pres. Packer was correct when he told us the three things that would vex the Church the most in coming years (and I believe this talk was given 15 years ago)..one was the "intellectuals". Sometimes I think there are those who "intellectualize" the Gospel to the point that I don't recognize it! The Savior taught in parables (stories) that most everyone could understand. I don't think for a moment that He wants it to be hard to understand. I don't recall which one of the general authorities said it, I just remember it was said: "The brethren will always speak simply to be understood, and simply to not be misunderstood."

My walk is a spiritual walk. Those who are able to walk a spiritual walk do not need any man to lead them. Walking with the Holy Spirit guiding you does not require another mediator. God gave us the Comforter for the explicit purpose of being personally led by a member of the Godhead. It took me a very long time to come to this awakening. As soon as we look to someone else to lead us, we have forgotten our first love. Not putting God first is described as something we have forgotten. Whenever I forget something, I can't remember what it is I forgot. That is the nature of forgetting.....you can't remember. So many members of the Church have been in a state of forgetfulness for so long, that they no longer recognize that they are in a state of forgetfulness even when it is pointed out to them.

I was very happy for almost four decades to allow the Church to lead me. I didn't recognize that this is what was taking place. It was in following the admonition of seeking the guidance of the Holy Spirit---which has been taught since Joseph Smith---which finally DID take me to the point that I WAS allowing the Holy Spirit to guide me; even in the pursuit of more Truth. That is also the same time I realized that I had been allowing the Church to lead me instead of allowing the Holy Spirit to lead me. It is more than seeking guidance for personal or familial circumstances. The Comforter is the only power on the earth whose mission is to reveal Truth to us. If we aren't able to be led directly by the Holy Spirit, God will go to plan B----prophets. His True Prophets are anointed and appointed by Him. This does not mean that God has removed plan A. Plan B is a condition whereby God is no longer our first love. He will give us what we want, even when we don't understand or see the implications of our desires. Joseph Smith was a True Prophet. It was in following his teachings (which was Plan B, during which time I wasn't really putting God first...and didn't even realize that this is what I was doing), that I was finally able to see and do Plan A. As a result of seeing and doing Plan A, I am receiving personal revelations which are revealing more and more Truth. I am being led everywhere to find Truth. I now see what I had been doing for almost 40 years; placing the Church and Her leaders between myself and my first love. I got what I wanted; until I was able to see that God was NOT first in my life. Now, the heavens have opened and Truth pours into my spirit every waking moment.

Love,

jo

[SkyBird]

If I were to invite the "Godhead" to dinner I would put two plates (One for the Father and One for the Son) on the table...and if I were going to eat with them I would put a 3rd plate down. That's because the H.G. is the "mind" and/or "will" of the Father and the Son, or to be more specific it is their divine nature. In this reality the H.G. is not a "john doe" ... It is a way of living, of becoming. Think about the logic... can two righteous spirits enter the same mortal body? ... no it is contrary to the divine plan... that's why we cast out spirits who are trying to enter a body that is meant for only one spirit... in fact take a 1830 dictionary that was available in Joseph Smith's time and it will say a "personage" has reference to the attributes or character of an individual. Lectures on Faith is clear on this as well. As I mentioned before, the word "Holy" is an adjective defining a noun (a person, place or thing) or our spirit that has "holy" characteristic's or attributes that it is manifesting. This makes perfect sense scripturally. Stephen being stoned was filled with the H.G. (holiness of character) and looked up and saw the Father and Son. No one in the scriptures has ever seen a H.G. and described it as a "man" moving about as a spirit being. Joseph Smith saw in vision the Father and Son... he did not see a third spiritual being standing anywhere near them. Any other description of the H.G. being a spirit being in the Mormon culture is opinion and not scriptural at all. Spiritual experience teaches this truth... but you are free to believe what you want.

well, this is something different isn't it?

he did not see a third spiritual being standing anywhere near them.

that's because he saw 2 physical beings (or 1 depending on which account you want to go off) But, What is the power that put Him into vision? Since no unclean thing can dwell in the in the actual presence of the father, it would have to have been a vision, and it is called the first vision. The power that allowed Him to see this was the Holy Ghost. this fits with Vision in scripture, where the Holy ghost fell upon men and they saw visions, where men fell asleep in the spirit and saw visions. The Holy Ghost is that entity that initiates this. You don't see the holy Ghost, but you feel it, almost tangible.

For me I view 'personage' meaning separate and distinct, not necessarily as of an individual form of man. I should probably stop using incorrect terminology, and find the correct words so as to not misconstrue my meanings.

Think about the logic... can two righteous spirits enter the same mortal body?

We cast out unclean spirits, we rebuke demons out of people, BUT we invite the Holy Ghost and influence to be in us and dwell in us and guide us.

As I mentioned before, the word "Holy" is an adjective defining a noun (a person, place or thing) or our spirit that has "holy" characteristic's or attributes that it is manifesting.

This is dangerous, it would seem you are saying since our spirit is a ghost, and we become holy, that you imply WE are Holy Ghost, which would imply there is no "Holy Ghost", this is not it is not scriptural, and is contrary to the gospel. Holiness of character is not what the scripture terms as holy Ghost.

Spiritual experience teaches this truth...

that's nice. but I'll trust the words of Christ himself, and the miraculous fruit of the the Holy Ghost I have experienced, and the encounters with the Holy Ghost and His real miracles and power in the lives of the people around me. I would say LACK of spiritual encounter teaches what you say. If you are denying that there is a actual separate presence and Spirit from God called Holy Ghost, does that mean you deny the Holy Ghost?

but you are free to believe what you want.

thanks.

I respect your conclusions. You are entitled to them. And I stand by my testimony, beliefs and experiences with the H.G. I have come to know for myself the sweetness of the Holy Spirit or Ghost and that it is indeed a "personage of spirit" (D&C 130: 22-23) which we each have the power to manifest in our thought, words, and deeds... The H.G. is to me a spiritual metaphor for the "fruits of the spirit" (Galatians 5: 22-26) and every other diving attribute that makes God, God... to this I testify!

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.
(New Testament | Galatians 5:22 - 26)

[drjme]

If I were to invite the "Godhead" to dinner I would put two plates (One for the Father and One for the Son) on the table...and if I were going to eat with them I would put a 3rd plate down. That's because the H.G. is the "mind" and/or "will" of the Father and the Son, or to be more specific it is their divine nature. In this reality the H.G. is not a "john doe" ... It is a way of living, of becoming. Think about the logic... can two righteous spirits enter the same mortal body? ... no it is contrary to the divine plan... that's why we cast out spirits who are trying to enter a body that is meant for only one spirit... in fact take a 1830 dictionary that was available in Joseph Smith's time and it will say a "personage" has reference to the attributes or character of an individual. Lectures on Faith is clear on this as well. As I mentioned before, the word "Holy" is an adjective defining a noun (a person, place or thing) or our spirit that has "holy" characteristic's or attributes that it is manifesting. This makes perfect sense scripturally. Stephen being stoned was filled with the H.G. (holiness of character) and looked up and saw the Father and Son. No one in the scriptures has ever seen a H.G. and described it as a "man" moving about as a spirit being. Joseph Smith saw in vision the Father and Son... he did not see a third spiritual being standing anywhere near them. Any other description of the H.G. being a spirit being in the Mormon culture is opinion and not scriptural at all. Spiritual experience teaches this truth... but you are free to believe what you want.

well, this is something different isn't it?

he did not see a third spiritual being standing anywhere near them.

that's because he saw 2 physical beings (or 1 depending on which account you want to go off) But, What is the power that put Him into vision? Since no unclean thing can dwell in the in the actual presence of the father, it would have to have been a vision, and it is called the first vision. The power that allowed Him to see this was the Holy Ghost. this fits with Vision in scripture, where the Holy ghost fell upon men and they saw visions, where men fell asleep in the spirit and saw visions. The Holy Ghost is that entity that initiates this. You don't see the holy Ghost, but you feel it, almost tangible.

For me I view 'personage' meaning separate and distinct, not necessarily as of an individual form of man. I should probably stop using incorrect terminology, and find the correct words so as to not misconstrue my meanings.

Think about the logic... can two righteous spirits enter the same mortal body?

We cast out unclean spirits, we rebuke demons out of people, BUT we invite the Holy Ghost and influence to be in us and dwell in us and guide us.

As I mentioned before, the word "Holy" is an adjective defining a noun (a person, place or thing) or our spirit that has "holy" characteristic's or attributes that it is manifesting.

This is dangerous, it would seem you are saying since our spirit is a ghost, and we become holy, that you imply WE are Holy Ghost, which would imply there is no "Holy Ghost", this is not it is not scriptural, and is contrary to the gospel. Holiness of character is not what the scripture terms as holy Ghost.

Spiritual experience teaches this truth...

that's nice. but I'll trust the words of Christ himself, and the miraculous fruit of the the Holy Ghost I have experienced, and the encounters with the Holy Ghost and His real miracles and power in the lives of the people around me. I would say LACK of spiritual encounter teaches what you say. If you are denying that there is a actual separate presence and Spirit from God called Holy Ghost, does that mean you deny the Holy Ghost?

but you are free to believe what you want.

thanks.

I respect your conclusions. You are entitled to them. And I stand by my testimony, beliefs and experiences with the H.G. I have come to know for myself the sweetness of the Holy Spirit or Ghost and that it is indeed a "personage of spirit" (D&C 130: 22-23) which we each have the power to manifest in our thought, words, and deeds... The H.G. is to me a spiritual metaphor for the "fruits of the spirit" (Galatians 5: 22-26) and every other diving attribute that makes God, God... to this I testify!

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.
(New Testament | Galatians 5:22 - 26)

Skybird sorry if my reply was offensive, it's just some of those views seemed eerily new age, specifically our ghosts being the Holy Ghost.
The fruit of the spirit is those beautiful experiences and attributes that are changed in you by His power that you quoted, But the fruits are also miracles, healing, restoration, vision, prophecy, and a powerful presence. when we don't experience these
Last things, why do we try to change the interpretation of scripture to suit our limited experience instead of asking " God why aren't I experiencing the fullness of the power of your Holy Ghost as you showed us in the scriptures?"

[SkyBird]

I am not offended because I associate myself with the "truth" ... and the "truth" is never offended... it stands on its own merits... on a spiritual foundation that does not change or wavier. I simply smile and honor and respect the "potential god" I see within you and all people who are having experiences here in mortality.

[drjme]

My walk is a spiritual walk. Those who are able to walk a spiritual walk do not need any man to lead them. Walking with the Holy Spirit guiding you does not require another mediator. God gave us the Comforter for the explicit purpose of being personally led by a member of the Godhead. It took me a very long time to come to this awakening. As soon as we look to someone else to lead us, we have forgotten our first love. Not putting God first is described as something we have forgotten. Whenever I forget something, I can't remember what it is I forgot. That is the nature of forgetting.....you can't remember. So many members of the Church have been in a state of forgetfulness for so long, that they no longer recognize that they are in a state of forgetfulness even when it is pointed out to them.

I was very happy for almost four decades to allow the Church to lead me. I didn't recognize that this is what was taking place. It was in following the admonition of seeking the guidance of the Holy Spirit---which has been taught since Joseph Smith---which finally DID take me to the point that I WAS allowing the Holy Spirit to guide me; even in the pursuit of more Truth. That is also the same time I realized that I had been allowing the Church to lead me instead of allowing the Holy Spirit to lead me. It is more than seeking guidance for personal or familial circumstances. The Comforter is the only power on the earth whose mission is to reveal Truth to us. If we aren't able to be led directly by the Holy Spirit, God will go to plan B----prophets. His True Prophets are anointed and appointed by Him. This does not mean that God has removed plan A. Plan B is a condition whereby God is no longer our first love. He will give us what we want, even when we don't understand or see the implications of our desires. Joseph Smith was a True Prophet. It was in following his teachings (which was Plan B, during which time I wasn't really putting God first...and didn't even realize that this is what I was doing), that I was finally able to see and do Plan A. As a result of seeing and doing Plan A, I am receiving personal revelations which are revealing more and more Truth. I am being led everywhere to find Truth. I now see what I had been doing for almost 40 years; placing the Church and Her leaders between myself and my first love. I got what I wanted; until I was able to see that God was NOT first in my life. Now, the heavens have opened and Truth pours into my spirit every waking moment.

Love,

jo

Good points Jo, a really good example of this is the Israelites and Moses. They didn't want to know God so He gave them to be led by Man and with that laws and laws and laws. So much they didn't want to know Him they told Moses to talk to Him for them. When Moses returned from communing with The Lord and the residual FADING glory was upon Him, they told him to cover His face with a veil, because, the they didn't want to see the Glory. And look where that got them. When we live under the new covenant in Christ he takes us from glory to glory. When we choose to live stuck under prophets and law we experience what those living under the law experienced, we experience only fading Glory, which is why the law was called the law unto death, the further we go into it, it's like a backward slide away from the glory and presence of God.
Plan A is for God to take you from glory to glory. Plan B is there to bump you back into plan A, if you want to stay in plan B you will only experience the fading Glory that was Plan A. The Glory will not be sustained if you are living under an inferior covenant.

[SkyBird]

I would like to remind us that the following constitutes WHO, exactly, is Christ's church:

D&C 10:67 Behold, this is my doctrine—whosoever repenteth and cometh unto me, the same is my church.

And here are those who are against His church and who are NOT of His church:

D&C 10:68 Whosoever declareth more or less than this, the same is not of me, but is against me; therefore he is not of my church.

IOW, ALL those who repent and come to Christ, ARE His church. They don't even need to be baptized. It does not matter what the name a physical church is known by for the members of that church to be Christ's church. It DOES matter if someone declares more or less than repentance and coming to Christ; because those who do so are not of Christ....they are against Christ....and, therefore, they are NOT of His church.

The most recent out-pouring of the Holy Spirit where manifestations were like those spoken of in the NT and in the BoM, was at the time the Kirland Temple was dedicated. I would offer that the reason we have not seen these manifestations is because the LDS Church has since that time been declaring "more than this". Declaring exclusivity to the Holy Ghost is prideful and false. The Holy Ghost has been given to the entire earth.

jo

Do you remember that the Holy Ghost will not reside in unholy temples, (wicked humans)? He won't always reside with Mormons that don't love God with all their mind, might and strength, and keep the commandments. The Light of Christ was given to all mankind but is not the Holy Ghost.

The First Great Commandment is to love God with all of our heart, with all of our soul and with all of our mind. (BTW, I am curious....based upon your comment, I am wondering if you believe that only Mormons are able to keep this commandment?) When we make our personal commitment to follow Christ by virtue of a public, physical display of baptism by water---and be clear that these individuals are already of His church before they are baptized---this represents our spiritual promise to God. God is our FIRST love; the Greatest Commandment of the Two Greatest Commandments lists God FIRST. He is our first love. "Seek ye FIRST the Kingdom of God"....do we see the pattern here? Who are the ones who get to come to the earth with Christ when He returns? The Church of the FIRSTborn. They are ones who are in the FIRST resurrection. Promises made to the children of Israel were made to those who were born FIRST. The sacrifices which were acceptable to the Lord were the FIRST to be born. We hear about first fruits. "First" is everywhere!!

Now let us look at how the members of the Church not only desire to be led by a prophet, they place Her leaders upon pedestals seeking their guidance first. They are waiting to hear from the leaders to determine what they are allowed to believe....how to interpret scripture...waiting to learn of more Truth, waiting upon every word that comes out of the mouth of the prophet, rather than waiting upon every word that the Holy Ghost would reveal to them personally. We make our baptismal promises with God; NOT with the Church. The moment a member of a physical church places a leader between themselves and God, they have forgotten their first love; they have abandoned the very member of the Godhead whom they promised Father that they would follow. In this way they are personally denying Christ.

Here are YOUR words: He won't always reside with Mormons that don't love God with all their mind, might and strength, and keep the commandments. Well, the Holy Ghost will not reside with the member of ANY physical church who has placed a leader between themselves and God. You are not aware that you, yourself, have broken the first Great Commandment. You are an unholy temple who will not be able to be cleansed from the wickedness you participate in. No matter how often or how sincere your efforts are to repent of sin, until you repent of forgetting your first love which breaks the first great commandment, you will not be a holy temple. Place God first!

Additionally, when you or other members of the Church claim exclusivity to the Holy Ghost, you are closing the gates of heaven to anyone who does not "join" with your belief system. In this you are a Pharisee by virtue of closing the gates of heaven.

Love,

jo

jo... you have a way with words... I agree with your spiritual outlook. Thanks for sharing!

[SkyBird]

I have read this thread and many others that recently seem to end up the same. I must say, I joined the Church when I was 16....That was 55 years ago. I don't recall anyone EVER telling me that anyone is between me and the Savior. Nor have I even been instructed to worship the Prophet. Rather...I believe we are blessed with leadership who give us instructions on how to best live our lives and seek to become more like the Savior. Sure, sometimes they talk about things that I already know, but often in different ways that give me a better perspective. I have always been told that the "Church" is the vehicle through which the Gospel is taught. It is "organized" to better serve its four fold mission....which mission I believe will endeavor all of us to become more Christ like. It appears to me that Pres. Packer was correct when he told us the three things that would vex the Church the most in coming years (and I believe this talk was given 15 years ago)..one was the "intellectuals". Sometimes I think there are those who "intellectualize" the Gospel to the point that I don't recognize it! The Savior taught in parables (stories) that most everyone could understand. I don't think for a moment that He wants it to be hard to understand. I don't recall which one of the general authorities said it, I just remember it was said: "The brethren will always speak simply to be understood, and simply to not be misunderstood."

My walk is a spiritual walk. Those who are able to walk a spiritual walk do not need any man to lead them. Walking with the Holy Spirit guiding you does not require another mediator. God gave us the Comforter for the explicit purpose of being personally led by a member of the Godhead. It took me a very long time to come to this awakening. As soon as we look to someone else to lead us, we have forgotten our first love. Not putting God first is described as something we have forgotten. Whenever I forget something, I can't remember what it is I forgot. That is the nature of forgetting.....you can't remember. So many members of the Church have been in a state of forgetfulness for so long, that they no longer recognize that they are in a state of forgetfulness even when it is pointed out to them.

I was very happy for almost four decades to allow the Church to lead me. I didn't recognize that this is what was taking place. It was in following the admonition of seeking the guidance of the Holy Spirit---which has been taught since Joseph Smith---which finally DID take me to the point that I WAS allowing the Holy Spirit to guide me; even in the pursuit of more Truth. That is also the same time I realized that I had been allowing the Church to lead me instead of allowing the Holy Spirit to lead me. It is more than seeking guidance for personal or familial circumstances. The Comforter is the only power on the earth whose mission is to reveal Truth to us. If we aren't able to be led directly by the Holy Spirit, God will go to plan B----prophets. His True Prophets are anointed and appointed by Him. This does not mean that God has removed plan A. Plan B is a condition whereby God is no longer our first love. He will give us what we want, even when we don't understand or see the implications of our desires. Joseph Smith was a True Prophet. It was in following his teachings (which was Plan B, during which time I wasn't really putting God first...and didn't even realize that this is what I was doing), that I was finally able to see and do Plan A. As a result of seeing and doing Plan A, I am receiving personal revelations which are revealing more and more Truth. I am being led everywhere to find Truth. I now see what I had been doing for almost 40 years; placing the Church and Her leaders between myself and my first love. I got what I wanted; until I was able to see that God was NOT first in my life. Now, the heavens have opened and Truth pours into my spirit every waking moment.

Love,

jo

jo,

Thanks again for your impressions.

This probably is not the place but I will share with you a dream I had that took the sword of judgment out of my hand with respect to the religions of the world.

I found myself clothed in the form and symbolism of Mormon tradition (the robes of the holy priesthood) and yet, I was chained to the inner foundation of the SLC temple. I wondered why I was chained to the inner foundation of the temple, when I had done everything correctly within my faith. I looked up and was able to see through the stone, mortar and ceiling of the temple into the heavens where I saw Father and Christ. I so wanted to ascend up and be with them but the chain kept me bound to the inner foundation of the temple.

As I pondered why I was chained, the Savior knowing my thoughts immediately asked me to look closely at the chain that held me bound. I turned and looked, and to my view each link of the chain transcended its normal iron look and I saw the first link as my birth into this world. Then, link two: I saw my father giving me a “name and a blessing” as an infant. And when I turned 8 years old…, another link was my baptism. I saw my father baptize me and lay hands on my head and confirmed me a member of the church and I heard him say to me: “receive the Holy Ghost.” …Each link of the chain continued to show to me all the ordinances and ceremonies I had gone through as a priesthood member of the church, up to and including being ordained a High Priest in the Melchizedek priesthood. I saw myself and my wonderful wife Karen being sealed in the sacred ordinance of marriage at the altar in the Salt Lake City Temple.

Each link revealed to me everything I had been asked to do; and I said, looking at the Savior, “What have I left undone?” He immediately asked me to look at the chain again, but this time look deeper into the links.” I turned back to the chain that was holding me down to the inner foundation of the temple; and I saw each link transform into the attributes of godliness and holiness of character! I saw that the first link closest to the inner foundation of the temple was “unconditional love” and then each link continued with “unconditional honesty,” “unconditional virtue,” “unconditional… patience, kindness, mercy, justice…
And then I saw a link that said “no respecter of persons” (I knew this was about judgment, “Judge not, that ye be not judged”) and when I saw this link, I looked around me and saw some from within the temple dressed in the robes of the holy priesthood ascend to the Father and Christ and I so wanted to ascend with them. My eyes were guided out through the walls of the temple and saw very few people from all cultures and races who were not members of the church who were ascending up to the Father and Christ clothed in beautiful white robes taking their place as “Gods” being one in attribute and character and perfections with God. I then turned to the Savior and said: “Oh, now I understand” and the chain that held be bound, broke, and I thought I was free to ascend, but I stopped and thought to myself, “why the deceit of ordinances and ceremonies if people who are not members of the church can be ‘Gods’ without going through all the ordinances that I had gone through?”

Immediately the Savior answered me and said: “The deceit was in me! The ordinances and ceremonies of all religions are manifestations of the truth and are to point your hearts and minds to the true nature of worship, godliness and holiness of character within.” I then felt a huge load of judgment leave me and I found myself truly free and ascended to my Father in Heaven and Christ.

[freedomforall]

My walk is a spiritual walk. Those who are able to walk a spiritual walk do not need any man to lead them.

Oh, really. So sad that you forgot about the Savior, a man at the time, leading people around for many years while on earth. As of yet they didn't even have the Holy Ghost. Many more people didn't like him, his words, nor his position, and they killed him. Was He just any man?

You are not aware that you, yourself, have broken the first Great Commandment. You are an unholy temple who will not be able to be cleansed from the wickedness you participate in. No matter how often or how sincere your efforts are to repent of sin, until you repent of forgetting your first love which breaks the first great commandment, you will not be a holy temple. Place God first!

Where did you come up with this conclusion in your spiritual walk? Or is judging people part of your new found calling? This statement is so off base that it borders insanity. Is your head so far up in the clouds that you no longer can understand what someone is saying.
Not once did I say to follow a man rather than Christ.
Not once did I say the Mormons have exclusive rights to the Holy Ghost.
I did say that we are to keep God's commandments, to love Him with all we got, and have the Holy Ghost as a constant companion.
So how could you have misinterpreted any of this?
I challenge you to go to all of my posts and find out what I believe, because I don't appreciate your insinuations based on falsehoods, and then to top it off calling it a "spiritual walk." What happened to compassion, humility and understanding...and seeking to find out what a person is attempting to say without twisting words around?

Additionally, when you or other members of the Church claim exclusivity to the Holy Ghost, you are closing the gates of heaven to anyone who does not "join" with your belief system. In this you are a Pharisee by virtue of closing the gates of heaven.

You have no idea what my belief system is, only what you perceive it to be...big difference. In your spiritual walk...maybe you ought to go back and hit the books (official church doctrine) some more. Then you'll know what I believe. In there you'll find where it says that the Spirit will not always strive with man. It's up to you to find out why.

Now will you kindly retract your insults? If you want to know what I believe, ask me. Don't make up stuff. In fact, in your "spiritual walk" perhaps you can tear yourself away from making harsh judgements long enough to ask God if what I say is true or not. And you will do this if you truly are seeking truth. Otherwise, it could end up that you're full of hot air.

[freedomforall]

I have read this thread and many others that recently seem to end up the same. I must say, I joined the Church when I was 16....That was 55 years ago. I don't recall anyone EVER telling me that anyone is between me and the Savior. Nor have I even been instructed to worship the Prophet. Rather...I believe we are blessed with leadership who give us instructions on how to best live our lives and seek to become more like the Savior. Sure, sometimes they talk about things that I already know, but often in different ways that give me a better perspective. I have always been told that the "Church" is the vehicle through which the Gospel is taught. It is "organized" to better serve its four fold mission....which mission I believe will endeavor all of us to become more Christ like. It appears to me that Pres. Packer was correct when he told us the three things that would vex the Church the most in coming years (and I believe this talk was given 15 years ago)..one was the "intellectuals". Sometimes I think there are those who "intellectualize" the Gospel to the point that I don't recognize it! The Savior taught in parables (stories) that most everyone could understand. I don't think for a moment that He wants it to be hard to understand. I don't recall which one of the general authorities said it, I just remember it was said: "The brethren will always speak simply to be understood, and simply to not be misunderstood."

Natasha, you are correct concerning intellectuals. I think I can read between the lines on this one. Great observation.

[jo1952]

My walk is a spiritual walk. Those who are able to walk a spiritual walk do not need any man to lead them. Walking with the Holy Spirit guiding you does not require another mediator. God gave us the Comforter for the explicit purpose of being personally led by a member of the Godhead. It took me a very long time to come to this awakening. As soon as we look to someone else to lead us, we have forgotten our first love. Not putting God first is described as something we have forgotten. Whenever I forget something, I can't remember what it is I forgot. That is the nature of forgetting.....you can't remember. So many members of the Church have been in a state of forgetfulness for so long, that they no longer recognize that they are in a state of forgetfulness even when it is pointed out to them.

I was very happy for almost four decades to allow the Church to lead me. I didn't recognize that this is what was taking place. It was in following the admonition of seeking the guidance of the Holy Spirit---which has been taught since Joseph Smith---which finally DID take me to the point that I WAS allowing the Holy Spirit to guide me; even in the pursuit of more Truth. That is also the same time I realized that I had been allowing the Church to lead me instead of allowing the Holy Spirit to lead me. It is more than seeking guidance for personal or familial circumstances. The Comforter is the only power on the earth whose mission is to reveal Truth to us. If we aren't able to be led directly by the Holy Spirit, God will go to plan B----prophets. His True Prophets are anointed and appointed by Him. This does not mean that God has removed plan A. Plan B is a condition whereby God is no longer our first love. He will give us what we want, even when we don't understand or see the implications of our desires. Joseph Smith was a True Prophet. It was in following his teachings (which was Plan B, during which time I wasn't really putting God first...and didn't even realize that this is what I was doing), that I was finally able to see and do Plan A. As a result of seeing and doing Plan A, I am receiving personal revelations which are revealing more and more Truth. I am being led everywhere to find Truth. I now see what I had been doing for almost 40 years; placing the Church and Her leaders between myself and my first love. I got what I wanted; until I was able to see that God was NOT first in my life. Now, the heavens have opened and Truth pours into my spirit every waking moment.

Love,

jo

jo,

Thanks again for your impressions.

This probably is not the place but I will share with you a dream I had that took the sword of judgment out of my hand with respect to the religions of the world.

I found myself clothed in the form and symbolism of Mormon tradition (the robes of the holy priesthood) and yet, I was chained to the inner foundation of the SLC temple. I wondered why I was chained to the inner foundation of the temple, when I had done everything correctly within my faith. I looked up and was able to see through the stone, mortar and ceiling of the temple into the heavens where I saw Father and Christ. I so wanted to ascend up and be with them but the chain kept me bound to the inner foundation of the temple.

As I pondered why I was chained, the Savior knowing my thoughts immediately asked me to look closely at the chain that held me bound. I turned and looked, and to my view each link of the chain transcended its normal iron look and I saw the first link as my birth into this world. Then, link two: I saw my father giving me a “name and a blessing” as an infant. And when I turned 8 years old…, another link was my baptism. I saw my father baptize me and lay hands on my head and confirmed me a member of the church and I heard him say to me: “receive the Holy Ghost.” …Each link of the chain continued to show to me all the ordinances and ceremonies I had gone through as a priesthood member of the church, up to and including being ordained a High Priest in the Melchizedek priesthood. I saw myself and my wonderful wife Karen being sealed in the sacred ordinance of marriage at the altar in the Salt Lake City Temple.

Each link revealed to me everything I had been asked to do; and I said, looking at the Savior, “What have I left undone?” He immediately asked me to look at the chain again, but this time look deeper into the links.” I turned back to the chain that was holding me down to the inner foundation of the temple; and I saw each link transform into the attributes of godliness and holiness of character! I saw that the first link closest to the inner foundation of the temple was “unconditional love” and then each link continued with “unconditional honesty,” “unconditional virtue,” “unconditional… patience, kindness, mercy, justice…
And then I saw a link that said “no respecter of persons” (I knew this was about judgment, “Judge not, that ye be not judged”) and when I saw this link, I looked around me and saw some from within the temple dressed in the robes of the holy priesthood ascend to the Father and Christ and I so wanted to ascend with them. My eyes were guided out through the walls of the temple and saw very few people from all cultures and races who were not members of the church who were ascending up to the Father and Christ clothed in beautiful white robes taking their place as “Gods” being one in attribute and character and perfections with God. I then turned to the Savior and said: “Oh, now I understand” and the chain that held be bound, broke, and I thought I was free to ascend, but I stopped and thought to myself, “why the deceit of ordinances and ceremonies if people who are not members of the church can be ‘Gods’ without going through all the ordinances that I had gone through?”

Immediately the Savior answered me and said: “The deceit was in me! The ordinances and ceremonies of all religions are manifestations of the truth and are to point your hearts and minds to the true nature of worship, godliness and holiness of character within.” I then felt a huge load of judgment leave me and I found myself truly free and ascended to my Father in Heaven and Christ.

[/quote]

SkyBird!!

Oh my goodness! You are one to whom is given dreams!! This is a great gift!!!

YES!!!! All of these things we are given to do while we are in the flesh are SYMBOLIC!!! They do not have the actual power to save us. They have the power to help us repent (i.e., turn to God)----a training to focus our thoughts on Father and on our Savior, until such time as we are ready and able to receive spiritual Truth that Father is waiting to share with us through the power of the Holy Spirit. Likewise, sin does not have actual power to keep us from returning to God. It is our perception of sin which binds us to the physical world. Our returning to God is delayed because we cannot see that sin is a delusion. Christ has already paid the price for sin. He has already fulfilled the Law (the rules which make up the delusion of sin)! We will remain bound to sin until we are able to accept Christ's gift. His gift has already freed us; while we cling to sin, we cannot receive the At-one-ment.

My dear brother, I am sure that you feel it; that your spirit is becoming aware of awakening to a spiritual walk with Christ! This is why it is needful that we share our experiences; share the Truth being revealed to each of us. We each experience Truth differently; and even our understanding of revealed Truth constantly evolves as we progress further on our spiritual journey. It is NOT as the world understands. Things that are of the Spirit can only be discerned spiritually. Paul taught us to do this sharing; NOT to be guided in spiritual matters by any leaders. Our spiritual leader is the Holy Spirit. Physical churches teach physical stuff; their witness is less than the witness of the Holy Spirit who teaches us Spirit to spirit.

What an absolutely beautiful and edifying dream. I am blessed that you saw fit to share it. Is this journey oh so awesome??!!!

Love,

jo

[jo1952]

Skybird,

This is very well stated. You are exactly right about our conception of the H.G. being opinion, and I'd go so far as to say, shaped by our Mormon culture and traditions. It is interesting to note how our ideas of the Godhead have changed. This is a good article on Mormon doctrine. http://www.mormonismi.net/pdf/Reconstru ... xander.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There is a section that specifically discusses how they went about to set and define a single concept of deity. Apparently, before the exegesis of 1915, not everyone agreed on the nature of the Godhead. One of the results of this work, was to remove the Lectures on Faith from the D&C.

Yes, Lone Star Patriot!

In fact, because our own personally experienced knowing of Truth is unique to each of us (all based on our personal paradigms and traditions and individual uniqueness), and because our understanding is always evolving, we simply cannot nail Truth down. It is no surprise that the Brethren and also Joseph (as he looked back upon his experiences), when attempting to standardize belief (which is impossible to do and always causes stumbling blocks---for instance, look at Christian orthodoxy) appeared different every time any of them tried to "afix" an explanation or interpretation.

I would offer that as we progress that wherever we are at any given time (IOW, our current linear present) has the ability to change our perception of what we thought we knew in our linear past; this in turn influences how we experience things in the future, until such time as we are in our linear future looking back into our past. @-) As such, even while we are in the physical, the physical is a pattern for the spiritual, and we can experience a glimpse of what the eternities are like; i.e., the eternities are experienced in the past, in the present, and in the future simultaneously.

Shalom,

jo

[SkyBird]

My walk is a spiritual walk. Those who are able to walk a spiritual walk do not need any man to lead them.

Oh, really. So sad that you forgot about the Savior, a man at the time, leading people around for many years while on earth. As of yet they didn't even have the Holy Ghost. Many more people didn't like him, his words, nor his position, and they killed him. Was He just any man?

You are not aware that you, yourself, have broken the first Great Commandment. You are an unholy temple who will not be able to be cleansed from the wickedness you participate in. No matter how often or how sincere your efforts are to repent of sin, until you repent of forgetting your first love which breaks the first great commandment, you will not be a holy temple. Place God first!

Where did you come up with this conclusion in your spiritual walk? Or is judging people part of your new found calling? This statement is so off base that it borders insanity. Is your head so far up in the clouds that you no longer can understand what someone is saying.
Not once did I say to follow a man rather than Christ.
Not once did I say the Mormons have exclusive rights to the Holy Ghost.
I did say that we are to keep God's commandments, to love Him with all we got, and have the Holy Ghost as a constant companion.
So how could you have misinterpreted any of this?
I challenge you to go to all of my posts and find out what I believe, because I don't appreciate your insinuations based on falsehoods, and then to top it off calling it a "spiritual walk." What happened to compassion, humility and understanding...and seeking to find out what a person is attempting to say without twisting words around?

Additionally, when you or other members of the Church claim exclusivity to the Holy Ghost, you are closing the gates of heaven to anyone who does not "join" with your belief system. In this you are a Pharisee by virtue of closing the gates of heaven.

You have no idea what my belief system is, only what you perceive it to be...big difference. In your spiritual walk...maybe you ought to go back and hit the books (official church doctrine) some more. Then you'll know what I believe. In there you'll find where it says that the Spirit will not always strive with man. It's up to you to find out why.

Now will you kindly retract your insults? If you want to know what I believe, ask me. Don't make up stuff. In fact, in your "spiritual walk" perhaps you can tear yourself away from making harsh judgements long enough to ask God if what I say is true or not. And you will do this if you truly are seeking truth. Otherwise, it could end up that you're full of hot air.

freedomfighter...

Why take offence to the truth that is in and through all things. Our LDS faith is not the vessel of all truth... When someone shares something new... by their fruits ye shall know the truth! Joseph Smith said:

“I have tried for a number of years to get the minds of the Saints prepared to receive the things of God; but we frequently see some of them, after suffering all they have for the work of God, will fly to pieces like glass as soon as anything comes that is contrary to their traditions: they cannot stand the fire at all. How many will be able to abide a celestial law, and go through and receive their exaltation, I am unable to say, as many are called, but few are chosen.

[jo1952]

Immediately the Savior answered me and said: “The deceit was in me! The ordinances and ceremonies of all religions are manifestations of the truth and are to point your hearts and minds to the true nature of worship, godliness and holiness of character within.” I then felt a huge load of judgment leave me and I found myself truly free and ascended to my Father in Heaven and Christ.

SkyBird,

Another thought about your dream. Peter had a dream which, though his dream did not appear as yours did, held the same message. Peter's dream broke down the barriers of "religion". The dream of which I speak is the one encompassed in Acts Chapter 10. As a result of his dream, Peter began to preach outside of the Jews.

Love,

jo

[SkyBird]

Immediately the Savior answered me and said: “The deceit was in me! The ordinances and ceremonies of all religions are manifestations of the truth and are to point your hearts and minds to the true nature of worship, godliness and holiness of character within.” I then felt a huge load of judgment leave me and I found myself truly free and ascended to my Father in Heaven and Christ.

SkyBird,

Another thought about your dream. Peter had a dream which, though his dream did not appear as yours did, held the same message. Peter's dream broke down the barriers of "religion". The dream of which I speak is the one encompassed in Acts Chapter 10. As a result of his dream, Peter began to preach outside of the Jews.

Love,


jo,




jo

I will share one more dream I had... it came about two week after the first one... I am still digesting it:

I saw myself on the earth with many, many people and saw a rope going straight up to Heaven. I desired to begin the clime because I knew it was going to take me to my Father in Heaven and Christ. I realized that the rope has always been available to all people but the distractions of the world were keeping most from looking up. As I began the climb I found it difficult and noticed a knot in the rope just ahead. Once there I realized the knot was my birth into mortality and at the same time the knot became a place of rest, where I could gain strength before I continue to the next knot. Once at the second knot I became aware that it was my baptism into the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and so on, each knot I arrived at was an experience within my chosen Mormon faith, such as: receiving the Gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying of hands, priesthood ordinations, temple endowment, temple marriage, the birth of each of our children. All these knots brought back to me many wonderful experiences and blessings.

As I approached what I thought was the last knot I meet the Savior, Jesus Christ and this knot opened up into a wonderful place with many, many people were enjoying the company and friendship of the Savior. It was truly a wonderful place and very peaceful, because the Savior was there. I was not there very long, because I had a thought come to my mind, and as the thought came to my mind the Savior approached me and said: “You want to go the Father don’t you?” And I said: “Yes!” He told me to look up, and as I did I saw the rope again. He told me the journey to the Father would be very difficult because there would not be any knots in the rope where I could stop and rest and gain strength. He told me there would be people coming down the rope which would give up because of the difficulty of letting go of beliefs that are filled with judgment. I told the Savior I really wanted to go, so He embraced me and gave me a blessing, and I departed.

Everything He told me came to pass. It was a very difficult climb, especially meeting individuals coming down the same rope I was going up. They would climb over the top of me, and it seemed almost unbearable, because I felt everything they were feeling. It wasn’t the physical burden that was hard to bare but it was all their grief, pain, sorrow, sin, blame and especially judgment that they were unwilling to let go of at this time. I remember wanting to help them, but all I could do for them was express my love and forgive them, which I did. As they were departing down the rope, I felt to bless them in my heart as they passed by; which seemed to strengthen my resolve to continue on. I realized then, that the Lord had done the same for me, you and everyone else.

When I finally got to the top I saw the Father and I will never forget as His arms wrap around me and tears of joy fell from my eyes. He knew exactly what I had gone through. He asked me to look down at the rope I had climbed up and when I looked, I saw the rope penetrate every person’s spirit (mind and heart), but most were not aware of it. The interesting thing to me was that from Fathers perspective there were never any knots in the rope. And the rope, as I was to understand were all the “Attributes of Godliness” that are innately apart of every person, but most were not aware of it; and these “Attributes of Godliness” was our potential which connected us all together from Fathers perspective.

I saw that all those who were with the Savior saw only their knots in the rope and did not see that “god” was in every person from Fathers perspective. The beautiful thing is, is that the rope without knots is always available, all the time, to everyone!

What did I learn from these dreams? Many things about myself, but most important: That no matter who “I am” or what culture or religion I may choose to be a part of; …to “Be Holy” in character is the “TRUTH” that God our Heavenly Father and Christ hopes we will see and understand. To know I can become like Them in character and attribute, is to fulfill our greatest potential. To realize this is a mystery that can only be experienced individually! So it makes no sense to me, to judge others over the outward “forms or structures” of religion (“formalism”)… but I should surly honor and respect the “god” within each person, and thank “God” in gratitude for the diversity of religions that flower the earth with the fragrance of “TRUTH” which is in and through all things, especially the heart and soul of mankind!

So if “I am” a Christian, Mormon, Catholic, Jew, Buddhist, Hindu, Muslim or whatever… I should be the “BEST” of whatever “I am,” by seeking a godly character, first in my own life and relationships, and be grateful for “the image of God” that “I am” a part of, in joy, in peace, in honesty, in unconditional love for everyone!

[jo1952]

I will share one more dream I had... it came about two week after the first one... I am still digesting it:

I saw myself on the earth with many, many people and saw a rope going straight up to Heaven. I desired to begin the clime because I knew it was going to take me to my Father in Heaven and Christ. I realized that the rope has always been available to all people but the distractions of the world were keeping most from looking up. As I began the climb I found it difficult and noticed a knot in the rope just ahead. Once there I realized the knot was my birth into mortality and at the same time the knot became a place of rest, where I could gain strength before I continue to the next knot. Once at the second knot I became aware that it was my baptism into the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and so on, each knot I arrived at was an experience within my chosen Mormon faith, such as: receiving the Gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying of hands, priesthood ordinations, temple endowment, temple marriage, the birth of each of our children. All these knots brought back to me many wonderful experiences and blessings.

As I approached what I thought was the last knot I meet the Savior, Jesus Christ and this knot opened up into a wonderful place with many, many people were enjoying the company and friendship of the Savior. It was truly a wonderful place and very peaceful, because the Savior was there. I was not there very long, because I had a thought come to my mind, and as the thought came to my mind the Savior approached me and said: “You want to go the Father don’t you?” And I said: “Yes!” He told me to look up, and as I did I saw the rope again. He told me the journey to the Father would be very difficult because there would not be any knots in the rope where I could stop and rest and gain strength. He told me there would be people coming down the rope which would give up because of the difficulty of letting go of beliefs that are filled with judgment. I told the Savior I really wanted to go, so He embraced me and gave me a blessing, and I departed.

Everything He told me came to pass. It was a very difficult climb, especially meeting individuals coming down the same rope I was going up. They would climb over the top of me, and it seemed almost unbearable, because I felt everything they were feeling. It wasn’t the physical burden that was hard to bare but it was all their grief, pain, sorrow, sin, blame and especially judgment that they were unwilling to let go of at this time. I remember wanting to help them, but all I could do for them was express my love and forgive them, which I did. As they were departing down the rope, I felt to bless them in my heart as they passed by; which seemed to strengthen my resolve to continue on. I realized then, that the Lord had done the same for me, you and everyone else.

When I finally got to the top I saw the Father and I will never forget as His arms wrap around me and tears of joy fell from my eyes. He knew exactly what I had gone through. He asked me to look down at the rope I had climbed up and when I looked, I saw the rope penetrate every person’s spirit (mind and heart), but most were not aware of it. The interesting thing to me was that from Fathers perspective there were never any knots in the rope. And the rope, as I was to understand were all the “Attributes of Godliness” that are innately apart of every person, but most were not aware of it; and these “Attributes of Godliness” was our potential which connected us all together from Fathers perspective.

I saw that all those who were with the Savior saw only their knots in the rope and did not see that “god” was in every person from Fathers perspective. The beautiful thing is, is that the rope without knots is always available, all the time, to everyone!

What did I learn from these dreams? Many things about myself, but most important: That no matter who “I am” or what culture or religion I may choose to be a part of; …to “Be Holy” in character is the “TRUTH” that God our Heavenly Father and Christ hopes we will see and understand. To know I can become like Them in character and attribute, is to fulfill our greatest potential. To realize this is a mystery that can only be experienced individually! So it makes no sense to me, to judge others over the outward “forms or structures” of religion (“formalism”)… but I should surly honor and respect the “god” within each person, and thank “God” in gratitude for the diversity of religions that flower the earth with the fragrance of “TRUTH” which is in and through all things, especially the heart and soul of mankind!

So if “I am” a Christian, Mormon, Catholic, Jew, Buddhist, Hindu, Muslim or whatever… I should be the “BEST” of whatever “I am,” by seeking a godly character, first in my own life and relationships, and be grateful for “the image of God” that “I am” a part of, in joy, in peace, in honesty, in unconditional love for everyone!

SkyBird!

You are blowing me away! There are wonderful mysteries being revealed to you through your dreams. I suspect that you may never have a solid fix on any dream since in every moment you are evolving...you are climbing that rope; or, perchance, slipping on it from time to time. At every interval when you look up or when you look down, your perspective will be different and new.

What I can see is that you are understanding that even though you are an individual, you are also aware of the "collective" of spirits of which we are a part. When we allow our light to shine, it shines not only for our "self"; it shines for all. Likewise, if we reflect only darkness, then darkness is all that is reflected into the collective. Ultimately, in order for us to experience a "complete" oneness, then all of our sibling spirits must participate; making it on an individual basis. And, eventually we all will; that is God's purpose for us and His purposes never fail. Meanwhile, however, we can experience oneness with Father and with the Son; and whichever other spirits have become One by the time we get there.

We can choose to rejoin the physical realm to help others. Some chose to not leave as did John the Beloved, and the three Nephites; and I do not doubt there are others from all world religions. I believe that Lazarus, whom Jesus raised from the dead, chose to stay on the earth. He arose from the dead, but was not resurrected---at least not until after Christ's Resurrection---as Jesus Christ was the first to Resurrect in our world system.

Yes, the way has always been there; it took Christ to access what was already there. Thus, He opened for us what we could not do on our own. Likewise, when we "pick up our own cross", we then suffer with Christ...experiencing as He experienced...just not to the degree that He did. But the trials and tribulations must be borne. The more that do this, and then in turn help others by helping to carry the burden of our brothers and sisters so that they can be freed to see, then the more easily the rope is climbed by those after us. Yet we cannot save others. They must choose salvation. And we are all right where we should be; because that is where we are ready to be....where we want to be. It is our perception which needs to change so that we can "see". This life in the physical realm...the Creation itself is a dream; IOW, it is temporary. It will cease to exist...just as our physical body will cease to exist; to finally be resurrected in a glorified state of being once we have overcome the world. Sin is a part of this dream; as such, it is an illusion/delusion. See how great the power of this delusion!! We are still bound to the delusion of sin; even though Christ already removed us from its bondage. Amazing, yes? Yet, oh, how we suffer when we cannot see. As long we choose the world...the physical...we will not be able to see spiritually; remaining bound to the delusion bondage from which Christ already freed us.

I will try to revisit this soon.

Love,

jo

[AussieOi]

Massive thread.
Massive

[jo1952]

Massive thread.
Massive

Yes! What a privilege!!

[freedomforall]

freedomfighter...

Why take offence to the truth that is in and through all things. Our LDS faith is not the vessel of all truth...

First of all, is your name Jo, or are you merely trying to reinforce the untrue statements directed at me? You know: (You are not aware that you, yourself, have broken the first Great Commandment. You are an unholy temple who will not be able to be cleansed from the wickedness you participate in. No matter how often or how sincere your efforts are to repent of sin, until you repent of forgetting your first love which breaks the first great commandment, you will not be a holy temple. Place God first!) Was this statement literally or figuratively. And this: (Additionally, when you or other members of the Church claim exclusivity to the Holy Ghost, you are closing the gates of heaven to anyone who does not "join" with your belief system. In this you are a Pharisee by virtue of closing the gates of heaven.) If it was not meant literally, it should have been worded differently. The word "you" is first person. The word "one" can mean anybody. See the difference?

Second, it depends on whose version of truth one listens to. If those statements were meant literally, I am justified in taking offense because it is not true. I have personally experienced the cleansing power of the Atonement, something many people cannot lay claim to. And when accusations like Jo put in a post for all to read, sounds to me like Jo wants everybody to "join" that belief system...a belief system that allows for unfounded insinuations, slander and innuendos. What kind of "spiritual walk" is that?

If you and Jo want to be in cahoots that's fine but don't spread nonsense with my name attached to it, or anyone else's for that matter, without warrant. God will judge poor judgement of others as well.

I hope this is as clear as it needs to be.

3 Nephi 13:33
33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things shall be added unto you.

And here is a little advice:

Doctrine and Covenants 11:21
21 Seek not to declare my word, but first seek to obtain my word, and then shall your tongue be loosed; then, if you desire, you shall have my Spirit and my word, yea, the power of God unto the convincing of men.