HeartSell(tm) vs The Holy Ghost

[skmo]

If people truly understood what JS is saying in what you quoted here Ajax their would be far fewer people standing at the pulpit swearing of what the holy Ghost has told them. Or how he has answered their prayers.

Now this one DOES strike me as being haughty. Joseph was talking about deep doctrine, there are many times he told things that only he or a few others understood because he was on a much higher spiritual plane than many are. However, I believe it's wrong to assume that someone can understand how the Holy Ghost answers another person's prayers. Most should be able to hear the still small voice. However, there may be some who need the mighty wind. There may be some who need the powerful quakes. And further still, some of us need a two by four upside the head.

[AussieOi]

Heart. Sell.
...
Evil swine. God will certainly judge me I have no doubt of that. But anyone involved with HeartSell (tm) will Bevin line too.

I'm not familiar with what things they've done, and I'm far enough away to not really have access to it now to look.

Are they making up stories about people like the very old Johnny Lingo story we watched in Seminary where Mahana's father says "Mahana you ugly!" Then Johnny pays 8 cows for her to prove to her she's beautiful and the next time we see her she's transformed into the Hawaiian Tropic girl, making the audience feel all warm and happy inside? And after this, are they claiming that this is the feeling of the Holy Ghost? If so, I'd agree that trying to represent the Holy Ghost as the emotional warm fuzzies would be wrong. I used that kind of approach myself occasionally in my younger years.

On the other hand, are they telling emotionally evocative stories to try to get people sensitive to their feelings and then trying to share a gospel message to try to help the Holy Ghost find a way into a heart otherwise corrupted by the cynicism and corruption of the world? If they're not being dishonest by claiming the Spirit is something it isn't, I don't see it as a problem.

I am sincerely asking because I am really not familiar with it.





Just my thought here, if it is the former, I hope someone realizes the inherent deception is more akin to the persuasion of satan. If it is the latter, we should remember that Jesus taught in parables to explain concepts to the simple of mind. He didn't look down on them, he taught in a language they would understand. My wife, an Elementary teacher, has had to substitute teach for me in my 6-12 classes. She sucks at it (her words, though I won’t contradict her.) It’s not her forte because she doesn’t teach well to their needs. They can’t be taught like 2nd Graders. When she teaches the little nose-digger monsters she is used to, she becomes Mary Poppins and Walt Disney (the man, not the corrupt company) in one and the kids end up making up songs about how great she is.

Nothing wrong with attractive packaging. I would never have found my wife’s inner beauty had her outer self not had such curvaceous hottness for me to be attracted to. Packaging up fuzzies as actual inspirationos by themselves would, indeed, be very wrong.

Mate, they are selling a technique.
Nothing sincere there.
Just peddlars of a flase emotion
Trying to replicate the holy ghost
Why would you try to defend that?

[keep the faith]

Heart. Sell.
...
Evil swine. God will certainly judge me I have no doubt of that. But anyone involved with HeartSell (tm) will Bevin line too.

I'm not familiar with what things they've done, and I'm far enough away to not really have access to it now to look.

Are they making up stories about people like the very old Johnny Lingo story we watched in Seminary where Mahana's father says "Mahana you ugly!" Then Johnny pays 8 cows for her to prove to her she's beautiful and the next time we see her she's transformed into the Hawaiian Tropic girl, making the audience feel all warm and happy inside? And after this, are they claiming that this is the feeling of the Holy Ghost? If so, I'd agree that trying to represent the Holy Ghost as the emotional warm fuzzies would be wrong. I used that kind of approach myself occasionally in my younger years.

On the other hand, are they telling emotionally evocative stories to try to get people sensitive to their feelings and then trying to share a gospel message to try to help the Holy Ghost find a way into a heart otherwise corrupted by the cynicism and corruption of the world? If they're not being dishonest by claiming the Spirit is something it isn't, I don't see it as a problem.

I am sincerely asking because I am really not familiar with it.





Just my thought here, if it is the former, I hope someone realizes the inherent deception is more akin to the persuasion of satan. If it is the latter, we should remember that Jesus taught in parables to explain concepts to the simple of mind. He didn't look down on them, he taught in a language they would understand. My wife, an Elementary teacher, has had to substitute teach for me in my 6-12 classes. She sucks at it (her words, though I won’t contradict her.) It’s not her forte because she doesn’t teach well to their needs. They can’t be taught like 2nd Graders. When she teaches the little nose-digger monsters she is used to, she becomes Mary Poppins and Walt Disney (the man, not the corrupt company) in one and the kids end up making up songs about how great she is.

Nothing wrong with attractive packaging. I would never have found my wife’s inner beauty had her outer self not had such curvaceous hottness for me to be attracted to. Packaging up fuzzies as actual inspirationos by themselves would, indeed, be very wrong.

Mate, they are selling a technique.
Nothing sincere there.
Just peddlars of a flase emotion
Trying to replicate the holy ghost
Why would you try to defend that?

I need to understand exactly what Aussie is alluding to here. Perhaps some examples would be helpful. I have seen tenderness and emotion displayed in films and music produced by the church that has moved me to tears in empathy towards or feeling for those in that particular situation. Is that somehow bad? The new temple film caused me to better reflect within myself upon the deep emotions caused by decisions made in the garden. I did not feel that was a false emotion created or negative or selling a technique at all. Can somebody give some examples here of this "evil" that Aussie alludes to?

[jo1952]

We often misconstrue our heart felt feelings of love, compassion, etc., which is called upon through film, theater, books, spoken words, etc., with being a witness of the Holy Spirit. Often, what we are feeling is actually a manifestation of emotions connected with love and of compassion, etc.,...and when these things manifest in a group setting where others are feeling the same things, this can be extremely uplifting and edifying. And they should be! These are godly attributes we are experiencing! The same can be said about the feelings of hope and desire. Is it not hope and desire to believe the words we hear when we first become aware that there is a Christ who is offering us salvation which fuels faith? These feelings and emotions can easily be confused with experiencing the Holy Spirit.

[ajax]

I think Aussie has given examples in the thread.

Makes me wonder how people felt the Holy Ghost pre - background music, neat graphics, nice sets. I wonder how the ancients endured the silence.

[AussieOi]

For those who cant "get it". And that's alright, most people aren't as intelligence as me, can I explain.

At some point they learn things about the church that makes them very sincerely doubt.

Because lets be honest a lot of tie official narrative/ story aint exactly how it actually went down.

But they think, and are told "I/ you felt something so it must be true".

Then in their Google journey they discover HeartSell (tm) and they HATE the church for lying to them, they HATE it for deceiving them, they HATE it for manipulating them.

and they reject the holy ghost, which at that extremely vulnerable point is probably trying to get through to them.

but if someone can't understand this, I cant help them.

Don't confuse creating a conducive environment, with deliberately fabricating a visit from a god.

its as bad as a seance

[freedomforall]

We often misconstrue our heart felt feelings of love, compassion, etc., which is called upon through film, theater, books, spoken words, etc., with being a witness of the Holy Spirit. Often, what we are feeling is actually a manifestation of emotions connected with love and of compassion, etc.,...and when these things manifest in a group setting where others are feeling the same things, this can be extremely uplifting and edifying. And they should be! These are godly attributes we are experiencing! The same can be said about the feelings of hope and desire. Is it not hope and desire to believe the words we hear when we first become aware that there is a Christ who is offering us salvation which fuels faith? These feelings and emotions can easily be confused with experiencing the Holy Spirit.

Whether by the Holy Ghost or by our knowledge of compassion, love and understanding, etc, here is how and why we may well up when we see or hear good things.

Alma 5:40
40 For I say unto you that whatsoever is good cometh from God, and whatsoever is evil cometh from the devil.

The key, operative word is "whatsoever." From the most minute to the largest good experience that brings joy to our heart, whatsoever...we may know that is is of God.

Even in some films the events in the picture try to get us to root for a bad guy, but it doesn't make it right and is not of God. Is this what heart sell is all about, getting people to encourage wrong doing when it is present, or in the moment?

[Fort Nine]

I had an angelic visitation / Holy Ghost visitation while in church (during the Sacrament) in 2000, regarding the will of a child. The message was clear: the visiting spirit belonged to my family and wanted to be conceived and born soon.

This sublime moment was certainly the most meaningful few seconds of my life. The witness did not bring tears. It brought joy and knowledge. The tears came after the event, when thinking of it or if I talked about it.

So I do not equate tears with the Holy Ghost. Tears, in my experience, are a reaction and a result to the comfort and knowledge the HG brings. I do believe, however, that his levels of interaction with vary from subtle feelings to full-blown information dumps. Either way, the result is that you know what is right or true, and feel good about it. Crying comes later.

[skmo]

...most people aren't as intelligence as me...

Probably many who aren't as gooder in Engleesh no how, so don't bother trying to explain. There there just for the free donuts the releef sociaty do for meetin times.

[Hannant]

I have just discovered this thread.
Oh. Wow.
How can this be?
Just what have I been feeling?

[TZONE]

I have just discovered this thread.
Oh. Wow.
How can this be?
Just what have I been feeling?

Ask heavenly father to help distinguish between personal emotions and the spirit.

The Lord will remove stumbling blocks but we must stay true on the path to Him. He allows stumbling blocks to help us stay humble.

[Bryan LJ]

A family member called me up today lecturing me for acknowledging that I would follow the Spirit over a church leader in the case they contradicted. He told me that I was arrogant to say that and that if I contradicted a leader I would be deceived and would be the one in the wrong. :ymdevil: I showed him through the scriptures that we are not to trust in the arm of flesh and that the Lord employs no servant at his gate and no where in the scriptures does it say to follow the words of your bishop or stake president over the spirit. He said that I must interpret the scriptures wrong and that do to my arrogance of be willing to defy a leader that I do not have the spirit with me.

He explained that people that have the spirit are our general authorities. He explained that if you notice they all put their voice at a certain tone, and speed and so forth speak all the same in a calm mild manor unlike me. I told him that it sounds like HeartSell to me! (I did clarify that they could possibly be mixed)

[TZONE]

A family member called me up today lecturing me for acknowledging that I would follow the Spirit over a church leader in the case they contradicted. He told me that I was arrogant to say that and that if I contradicted a leader I would be deceived and would be the one in the wrong. :ymdevil: I showed him through the scriptures that we are not to trust in the arm of flesh and that the Lord employs no servant at his gate and no where in the scriptures does it say to follow the words of your bishop or stake president over the spirit. He said that I must interpret the scriptures wrong and that do to my arrogance of be willing to defy a leader that I do not have the spirit with me.

He explained that people that have the spirit are our general authorities. He explained that if you notice they all put their voice at a certain tone, and speed and so forth speak all the same in a calm mild manor unlike me. I told him that it sounds like HeartSell to me! (I did clarify that they could possibly be mixed)

WOW

The Imporovement Era, June 1945 stated:

When our leaders speak, the thinking has been done. When they propose a plan–it is God’s plan. When they point the way, there is no other which is safe. When they give direction, it should mark the end of controversy. God works in no other way. To think otherwise, without immediate repentance, may cost one his faith, may destroy his testimony, and leave him a stranger to the kingdom of God.

In response to this a Unatarian minster sent a letter to the president of the Church, President George Albert Smith in part quoting Brigham Young:

“I am more afraid that this people have so much confidence in their leaders that they will not inquire for themselves of God whether they are led by him. I am fearful that they settle down in a state of blind self-security, trusting their eternal destiny in the hands of their leaders with a reckless confidence that in itself would thwa[r]t the purposes of God in their salvation, and weaken that influence they could give their leaders did they know for themselves, by the revelations of Jesus, that they are led in the right way. Let every man and woman know, by the whisperings of the Spirit of God to themselves, whether their leaders are walking in the path the Lord dictates, or not.”
Here is Presdent George Albert Smith’s responce:

…The leaflet to which you refer, and from which you quote in your letter, was not “prepared” by “one of our leaders.” However, one or more of them inadvertently permitted the paragraph to pass uncensored. By their so doing, not a few members of the Church have been upset in their feelings, and General Authorities have been embarrassed.

I am pleased to assure you that you are right in your attitude that the passage quoted does not express the true position of the Church. Even to imply that members of the Church are not to do their own thinking is grossly to misrepresent the true ideal of the Church, which is that every individual must obtain for himself a testimony of the truth of the Gospel, must, through the redemption of Jesus Christ, work out his own salvation, and is personally responsible to His Maker for his individual acts. The Lord Himself does not attempt coercion in His desire and effort to give peace and salvation to His children. He gives the principles of life and true progress, but leaves every person free to choose or to reject His teachings. This plan the Authorities of the Church try to follow.

The Prophet Joseph Smith once said: “I want liberty of thinking and believing as I please.” This liberty he and his successors in the leadership of the Church have granted to every other member thereof.

On one occasion in answer to the question by a prominent visitor how he governed his people, the Prophet answered: “I teach them correct principles, and they govern themselves.”

Again, as recorded in the History of the Church (Volume 5, page 498) Joseph Smith said further: “If I esteem mankind to be in error, shall I bear them down? No. I will lift them up, and in their own way too, if I cannot persuade them my way is better; and I will not seek to compel any man to believe as I do, only by the force of reasoning, for truth will cut its own way.”

I cite these few quotations, from many that might be given, merely to confirm your good and true opinion that the Church gives to every man his free agency, and admonishes him always to use the reason and good judgment with which God has blessed him.

In the advocacy of this principle leaders of the Church not only join congregations in singing but quote frequently the following:

“Know this, that every soul is free
To choose his life and what he’ll be,
For this eternal truth is given
That God will force no man to heaven.”

http://www.fairmormon.org/perspectives/ ... nking-done" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Lilli]

A family member called me up today lecturing me for acknowledging that I would follow the Spirit over a church leader in the case they contradicted. He told me that I was arrogant to say that and that if I contradicted a leader I would be deceived and would be the one in the wrong. :ymdevil: I showed him through the scriptures that we are not to trust in the arm of flesh and that the Lord employs no servant at his gate and no where in the scriptures does it say to follow the words of your bishop or stake president over the spirit. He said that I must interpret the scriptures wrong and that do to my arrogance of be willing to defy a leader that I do not have the spirit with me.

He explained that people that have the spirit are our general authorities. He explained that if you notice they all put their voice at a certain tone, and speed and so forth speak all the same in a calm mild manor unlike me. I told him that it sounds like HeartSell to me! (I did clarify that they could possibly be mixed)

Unfortunately the reaction you got is the belief of most members of the Church, they don't want the responsibility of discerning truth from error and their own salvation on their own shoulders. It's much easier to just believe we can and should have blind unquestioning obedience.

But Christ's prophets always teach us to question, study, pray and prove everything and everyone, even themselves, before we follow them or anyone or anything, so we aren't deceived. Christ's prophets know how easy it is for even them to be wrong or fall so they don't ask anyone to blindly obey or believe them.

[ajax]

Anybody notice any heartsell here?:
https://www.lds.org/broadcasts/article/ ... atch=video" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(Hint - skip to 4:15 and then 7:45 onward)

We're getting really good at this, able to compete with the best of 'em.

[CWilson]

The whole problem simply summed up is this: We as a people/church/leaders do not rely on the spirit of The Lord to spread the gospel truth. As a whole we do not have the faith so we rely upon Babylonian methods to push the gospel forth for nothing more than monetary reasons. The majority to include our leaders do not really believe or we would utilize the same principles of faith Alma and the sons of Mosiah used to take the gospel to the Lamanites.

And to answer anybody who says different, such as "it's a different time and we have world politics to deal with now" etc..etc...., You do not believe in anything but the traditions that you are so comfortably engulfed in, Sorry!

[Cookies]

Thee whole problem simply summed up is this: We as a people/church/leaders do not rely on the spirit of The Lord to spread the gospel truth. As a whole we do not have the faith anymore so we rely upon Babylonian methods to push the gospel for nothing re than monetary reasons. The majority including are leaders do not really believe or we would utilize the same principles of faith Almaa nd the sons of Mosiah used to take the gospel to the lamenites.

And to answer anybody who says different, such as it's a different time and we have world politics to deal with now etc...., you don't really believe in anything but the tradition your used to. Sorry!

Yes! I remember feeling at youth camp as if they were trying to force the spirit upon us. Though they may have had good intentions, it is a Babylonian method indeed! The result was a tearful group proudly proclaiming their testimonies about things we knew very little to nothing about! (Of course I can't speak for everyone there.... )

[MelissaM]

Thee whole problem simply summed up is this: We as a people/church/leaders do not rely on the spirit of The Lord to spread the gospel truth. As a whole we do not have the faith anymore so we rely upon Babylonian methods to push the gospel for nothing re than monetary reasons. The majority including are leaders do not really believe or we would utilize the same principles of faith Almaa nd the sons of Mosiah used to take the gospel to the lamenites.

And to answer anybody who says different, such as it's a different time and we have world politics to deal with now etc...., you don't really believe in anything but the tradition your used to. Sorry!

I agree. If we did we would be promoting doctrine to our youth instead of having Girl's camp themes like "Be your own Hero." and trek activities that never mention our Lord and Savior and promote the idea that our dead ancestors made sacrifices such that we don't have to.

I wonder what frequency HeartSell uses.

[Joel]

"HeartSell"® Discontinued? viewtopic.php?p=583123&sid=77fa895dc1bd ... 82#p583123" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Joel]

[Joel]

The neural circuitry involved in feeling religious experiences has been identified. Brain regions associated with reward lit up when devout Mormons said that they were "feeling the Spirit". The brain areas that responded included reward circuits that respond to romantic love, appreciation of music, cocaine and methamphetamines.

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/10.1080/ ... 16.1257437

[BeNotDeceived]

The neural circuitry involved in feeling religious experiences has been identified. Brain regions associated with reward lit up when devout Mormons said that they were "feeling the Spirit". The brain areas that responded included reward circuits that respond to romantic love, appreciation of music, cocaine and methamphetamines.

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/10.1080/ ... 16.1257437

Wrong kinda drugs for sure. :-s

[Joel]

The neural circuitry involved in feeling religious experiences has been identified. Brain regions associated with reward lit up when devout Mormons said that they were "feeling the Spirit". The brain areas that responded included reward circuits that respond to romantic love, appreciation of music, cocaine and methamphetamines.

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/10.1080/ ... 16.1257437

Sunstone Podcast Episode 2: Jeffrey S. Anderson

This is your brain on God.

John Larsen interviews Neuroradiologist Jeff Anderson about his study of the religious brain.

Jeffrey S. Anderson, MD, PhD directs the fMRI Neurosurgical Mapping Service and is Principal Investigator for the Utah Functional Neuroimaging Laboratory. Dr. Anderson’s lab studies brain networks using functional imaging techniques such as fMRI, diffusion tensor imaging, and magnetoencephalography. Dr. Anderson also has particular interest in autism, multiple sclerosis, vision research, and dementia.

Listen to this episode here.

[Joel]

[The Airbender]

What about the fruits of the spirit?

"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control."

By your fruits ye shall know them? I know when I have the spirit with me because I am patient and kind. I have faith and self-control and feel joy and peace. When I do not have the spirit, I do not have those things about me.

It is when I have the spirit that new intelligence is communicated to me. I do not get inspiration and new knowledge from the spirit unless it is with me, but I feel its fruits when it is with me. To say that the only accompanying effect of the spirit is intelligence is not entirely true.

It is true that the spirit gives pure intelligence but that won't happen if you are angry, bitter, selfish, vengeful, brutish.