Trying to reconcile...

[Daryl]

...The teachings of Elder Bednar in the last CES broadcast when he talked about having faith not to be healed with this scripture passage. A warning for future generations - us, today!

Disclaimer: I am not saying Elder Bednar is wrong. I am trying to reconcile the scripture with what Elder Bednar professed.

3 Nephi 29:5 Wo unto him that spurneth at the doings of the Lord; yea, wo unto him that shall deny the Christ and his works!

6 Yea, wo unto him that shall deny the revelations of the Lord, and that shall say the Lord no longer worketh by revelation, or by prophecy, or by gifts, or by tongues, or by healings, or by the power of the Holy Ghost!

7 Yea, and wo unto him that shall say at that day, to get gain, that there can be no miracle wrought by Jesus Christ; for he that doeth this shall become like unto the son of perdition, for whom there was no mercy, according to the word of Christ!

[Ben McClintock]

x

[taliesin]

I listened to Elder Bednar's talk yesterday. Here's my attempt at the reconciliation. The mental sequence of having faith to be healed goes like this:
- Believe / trust / have faith that Christ can heal you
- Have faith in yourself to endure if Christ chooses not heal you
- Let Christ choose to heal you if that is wisdom in Him, if not, be willing to submit to His will because in the long run not being healed will be better for your soul; either way, you are exercising faith, whether that is faith to be healed by Christ and thus bring the trial to an end or faith in yourself to endure the trial (with Christ's support).

Faith that you can be healed if Christ chooses to heal you is consistent with faith in revelation, prophecy, and Christ's works. It is also consistent with not denying Christ's power, but submitting to it, however He chooses to exercise it.

Note that charity "believeth all things" and "endureth all things".

Good question. It made me grow.

[awar_e]

Works for me.
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/7656 ... tml?pg=all" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Rose Garden]

When this subject comes up, it seems like there are two opposing ideas that conflict with each other and cause the confusion. First is that we will only be healed if it is God's will. Second is that if we aren't being healed, it is because we don't have enough faith. Actually, both are right.

We need to remember that we came to earth to develop faith. So if our faith is insufficient, we should not be ashamed. We should just keep pressing forward with an eye on the Savior until we have enough faith to be healed. But even then, we have to acknowledge that all things happen according to Heavenly Father's plan. His plan is to bring about the eternal life and immortality of all mankind. And so though we may have faith to be healed, He may delay healing for some purpose in His plan.

We can see an example of this in Nephi's life, though it's not healing, it is the same principle. First, he was bound by his brothers in the desert and left to be devoured by wild beasts. The Lord gave him strength to burst the ropes on his hands and feet. Second, he was bound on the ship by his brothers. But the Lord didn't give him the strength to burst the ropes again. Instead He allowed Nephi to wait four days until they almost died from the storm and then it was Nephi's brothers who untied the ropes. In both cases, the Lord's will was done, but one perhaps seemed more timely and miraculous to Nephi than the other. However, he trusted the Lord both times.

I believe that it is God's will that we all develop enough faith to be healed instantly of all our afflictions. I believe this is how the promise of an illness-free Zion will come about. But I also believe that if we aren't healed at this time, it is because of the mercies of the Lord in allowing us to learn from our failures and try harder next time. It may be for our benefit, or like Nephi, it may involve others' salvation as well. No matter what happens, we should just keep our eye single to the Lord's purposes, trust in Him to the best of our ability, and wait for His grand purposes to be manifest to us.

[drjme]

...The teachings of Elder Bednar in the last CES broadcast when he talked about having faith not to be healed with this scripture passage. A warning for future generations - us, today!

Disclaimer: I am not saying Elder Bednar is wrong. I am trying to reconcile the scripture with what Elder Bednar professed.

3 Nephi 29:5 Wo unto him that spurneth at the doings of the Lord; yea, wo unto him that shall deny the Christ and his works!

6 Yea, wo unto him that shall deny the revelations of the Lord, and that shall say the Lord no longer worketh by revelation, or by prophecy, or by gifts, or by tongues, or by healings, or by the power of the Holy Ghost!

7 Yea, and wo unto him that shall say at that day, to get gain, that there can be no miracle wrought by Jesus Christ; for he that doeth this shall become like unto the son of perdition, for whom there was no mercy, according to the word of Christ!

Do you have Elder Bednar's quote you are referring to?

We believe modern prophets trump dead ones any way

I don't think they trump Christ though.

[Ben McClintock]

x

[Original_Intent]

There is nothing that needs to be reconciled.

Nothing that Elder Bednar said conflicts with those scriptures - anyone that thinks there is either did not understand Elder Bednar's talk, does not understand the scriptures, or is being a devil's advocate, and while claiming to be "trying to reconcile" is actually trying to cast Elder Bednar as being in conflict with the scriptures.

Only Daryl can say which of these categories he falls into. Putting little disclaimers such as "I'm not saying that Elder Bednar is wrong... (wink, wink) does not change the intent, and again, only Daryl and the Lord can know his intent.

If reconciliation is really what you want I will spell out what Elder Bednar said: Having faith to be healed DOES NOT mean faith to be healed regardless of what God wants - faith to be healed means faith to know the Lord's will and accept it, whether His will is for you to be healed or not.

It's not denying the power to heal, nor is it just saying "Well, whether I am healed or not, it's simply the Lord's will and I accept it." It is nothing so passive. It is that you seek and know the Lord's will, and then belief in the goodness and the wisdom of that outcome, and believing that it WILL come to pass (whether that is to be healed OR not to be healed.)

Hope that is clear. I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed, but I managed to understand this. I am pretty sure that the spirit would have been happy to clarify if reconciling his talk to the scripture was your HEART'S DESIRE.

In short, by talking about both faith to be healed and faith not to be healed (or in other words to maintain faith in the Lord even if you are not to be healed) Elder Bednar said nothing that equates to the scary, red quotations (or should I all them accusations?) in the OP. Not by a country mile.

It seems like these forums standard is becoming "Say anything good about Denver or any of the other voices outside the heirarchy or say anything disparaging, critical, or "seeking reconciliation with the scriptures" about anyone in the heirarchy that you want.

If anyone dared imply that Denver was out of compliance with the scriptures on anything (and I'm not, I've loved everything of Bro. Snuffer's that I have read) but some of his more ardent followers are downright rabid regarding anyone questioning anything about Denver himself or even suggesting that some of his followers are on the overzealous side.

[drjme]

I don't think they trump Christ though.

Then you believe in plural marriage still being done in the Church today.

Or.. You can realize that Christ gives different commandments for different people and times and reveals that to His leaders, making it so Christ trumps Christ

When Christ says "I will heal you" and then a man says "don't expect to be healed" who do you think I'm going to listen to.
The fruits of the spirit are consistent and a sign to the faithful, the only time they stop is when people don't have faith in them to happen.

I don't believe this is what he meant though. This was posted in another thread. And the my interpretation of the quote seems along the lines of 'sometimes people may not be healed, and sometimes this is part of the lords plan' .

[Rose Garden]

There is nothing that needs to be reconciled.

Nothing that Elder Bednar said conflicts with those scriptures - anyone that thinks there is either did not understand Elder Bednar's talk, does not understand the scriptures, or is being a devil's advocate, and while claiming to be "trying to reconcile" is actually trying to cast Elder Bednar as being in conflict with the scriptures.

Only Daryl can say which of these categories he falls into. Putting little disclaimers such as "I'm not saying that Elder Bednar is wrong... (wink, wink) does not change the intent, and again, only Daryl and the Lord can know his intent.

If reconciliation is really what you want I will spell out what Elder Bednar said: Having faith to be healed DOES NOT mean faith to be healed regardless of what God wants - faith to be healed means faith to know the Lord's will and accept it, whether His will is for you to be healed or not.

It's not denying the power to heal, nor is it just saying "Well, whether I am healed or not, it's simply the Lord's will and I accept it." It is nothing so passive. It is that you seek and know the Lord's will, and then belief in the goodness and the wisdom of that outcome, and believing that it WILL come to pass (whether that is to be healed OR not to be healed.)

Hope that is clear. I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed, but I managed to understand this. I am pretty sure that the spirit would have been happy to clarify if reconciling his talk to the scripture was your HEART'S DESIRE.

In short, by talking about both faith to be healed and faith not to be healed (or in other words to maintain faith in the Lord even if you are not to be healed) Elder Bednar said nothing that equates to the scary, red quotations (or should I all them accusations?) in the OP. Not by a country mile.

It seems like these forums standard is becoming "Say anything good about Denver or any of the other voices outside the heirarchy or say anything disparaging, critical, or "seeking reconciliation with the scriptures" about anyone in the heirarchy that you want.

If anyone dared imply that Denver was out of compliance with the scriptures on anything (and I'm not, I've loved everything of Bro. Snuffer's that I have read) but some of his more ardent followers are downright rabid regarding anyone questioning anything about Denver himself or even suggesting that some of his followers are on the overzealous side.

OI, you have seemed to be so much more condemning lately. I see no reason to question Daryl's intent. Noticing that it seems the scriptures are saying the opposite of what Elder Bednar is, is not the same as concluding that they actually are. Can we not innocently point out that two ideas seem to be in opposition and ask for clarification? Are there not multiple situations in life that seem contradictory and require questioning and thought to understand? Why should we condemn someone simply for pointing out such a problem and asking questions? We do it even when comparing one scripture to another. There is nothing wrong with seeking to understand apparent contradictions.

There is no reason to assume that Daryl or anyone else will receive an instant answer to such questions if they are genuinely seeking truth. The greatest truths have come to me after days, weeks, sometimes even months and years of seeking. They often seem like simple questions with simple answers but have left me feeling unsatisfied anyway. After all the work I put into finding an answer that felt satisfactory, the Lord never let me down. He has always rewarded me with great spiritual experiences for my efforts. I would hate to rob a person of that experience because they are led to believe that if they don't receive instant understanding then they must really be seeking to go against God's will. Let's allow others to ask questions, even if they seem inappropriate to us, without condemning them. The Lord Himself allows this, so why shouldn't we?

[awar_e]

Have the deck chairs on the Titanic been arranged ENOUGH already?
Silly banter about a speech and scriptures just means that more time needs to be spent in prayer asking for discernment to understand, and not seeking another forum reader to be a final answer to something that some may never understand, while others see it quite plainly.

[Original_Intent]

I would simply say that anyone that listened to Elder Bednar's talk, and drew the conclusion that he was denying the gift of healing either has severe comprehension problems, was not paying attention to the spirit, or had an agenda.

And I am starting to think LDSFF in general and the super sacred "we have a REAL prophet" forums in particular are not for me.

Consider me sifted. It will be interesting to see who ends up in which piles when all is said and done.

[AGStacker]

Daryl, watch this video. The whole video. What this girl says will make you cringe. Don't focus too much on here argument, even though it is important, but what she says about God.

[Original_Intent]

...The teachings of Elder Bednar in the last CES broadcast when he talked about having faith not to be healed with this scripture passage. A warning for future generations - us, today!

Disclaimer: I am not saying Elder Bednar is wrong. I am trying to reconcile the scripture with what Elder Bednar professed.

3 Nephi 29:5 Wo unto him that spurneth at the doings of the Lord; yea, wo unto him that shall deny the Christ and his works!

6 Yea, wo unto him that shall deny the revelations of the Lord, and that shall say the Lord no longer worketh by revelation, or by prophecy, or by gifts, or by tongues, or by healings, or by the power of the Holy Ghost!

7 Yea, and wo unto him that shall say at that day, to get gain, that there can be no miracle wrought by Jesus Christ; for he that doeth this shall become like unto the son of perdition, for whom there was no mercy, according to the word of Christ!

Look, call me condemning, to me the above, especially the highlights, can only be interpreted as "Wo unto Elder Bednar for (doing the stuff in red text)!"

Now if anyone wants to take that as innocent "I have a question, I need reconciled", that's your prerogative. To me, it falls into a pattern that a few posters seem to tend towards, which is all too much like the "innocent" questions of the scribes and pharisees asking "should we pay taxes to the Romans?" "What is the greatest law?" and "behold here are these six ontis of silver, which I will give to you if you deny the Christ." Now if that gets me booted off LDSFF, that's fine. I said before, only Daryl and the Lord know his intent - you can call that MY disclaimer if you want. But when you see people (not Daryl in this case) BEARING TESITMONY that they KNOW that none of the twelve or the First Presidency have seen Christ, but Denver has....I think that's about the time that if that kind of attitude is allowed, it is time to remove the "LDS" from "LDSFF". And I find it ironic that I get booted for suggesting that some of Denver's follower's go too far and engage in idol worship, yet those who still have faith in the church leadership are told the same thing ALL THE TIME with no repercussions!

And I'm not angry, I am just in shock at the hypocrisy and the changes to LDSFF in the past year or so. It's no wonder that so many people have left and quit posting, I guess they just saw the writing on the wall sooner than I did.

[kathedralegs]

The spirit of contention didn't seem to be in the OP and subsequent responses until accusations were leveled.

[Original_Intent]

It's OK, I'm out of here.

Trash the General Authorities to your hearts content.

[e-eye]

...The teachings of Elder Bednar in the last CES broadcast when he talked about having faith not to be healed with this scripture passage. A warning for future generations - us, today!

Disclaimer: I am not saying Elder Bednar is wrong. I am trying to reconcile the scripture with what Elder Bednar professed.

3 Nephi 29:5 Wo unto him that spurneth at the doings of the Lord; yea, wo unto him that shall deny the Christ and his works!

6 Yea, wo unto him that shall deny the revelations of the Lord, and that shall say the Lord no longer worketh by revelation, or by prophecy, or by gifts, or by tongues, or by healings, or by the power of the Holy Ghost!

7 Yea, and wo unto him that shall say at that day, to get gain, that there can be no miracle wrought by Jesus Christ; for he that doeth this shall become like unto the son of perdition, for whom there was no mercy, according to the word of Christ!

Look, call me condemning, to me the above, especially the highlights, can only be interpreted as "Wo unto Elder Bednar for (doing the stuff in red text)!"

Now if anyone wants to take that as innocent "I have a question, I need reconciled", that's your prerogative. To me, it falls into a pattern that a few posters seem to tend towards, which is all too much like the "innocent" questions of the scribes and pharisees asking "should we pay taxes to the Romans?" "What is the greatest law?" and "behold here are these six ontis of silver, which I will give to you if you deny the Christ." Now if that gets me booted off LDSFF, that's fine. I said before, only Daryl and the Lord know his intent - you can call that MY disclaimer if you want. But when you see people (not Daryl in this case) BEARING TESITMONY that they KNOW that none of the twelve or the First Presidency have seen Christ, but Denver has....I think that's about the time that if that kind of attitude is allowed, it is time to remove the "LDS" from "LDSFF". And I find it ironic that I get booted for suggesting that some of Denver's follower's go too far and engage in idol worship, yet those who still have faith in the church leadership are told the same thing ALL THE TIME with no repercussions!

And I'm not angry, I am just in shock at the hypocrisy and the changes to LDSFF in the past year or so. It's no wonder that so many people have left and quit posting, I guess they just saw the writing on the wall sooner than I did.

Amen. Sad to see indeed but not surprising. Those who go down the slipperly slope have done so more and more and often those in oposition voice their opinion louder than those for truth.

[AGStacker]

I would simply say that anyone that listened to Elder Bednar's talk, and drew the conclusion that he was denying the gift of healing either has severe comprehension problems, was not paying attention to the spirit, or had an agenda.

And I am starting to think LDSFF in general and the super sacred "we have a REAL prophet" forums in particular are not for me.

Consider me sifted. It will be interesting to see who ends up in which piles when all is said and done.

I wouldn't leave unless your time can be spent better elsewhere. I don't think I come across as critical of the brethren because I do believe some of them have an apostolic witness and undoubtedly know that all of them speak the words of Christ when moved upon by the Holy Ghost. Rather, I am critical of the members for not knowing what is taught in their own scriptures, myself included. They are good men and I look up to them in many ways but to place upon them a burden of having experienced things that they themselves have not admitted isn't right.

[Nan]

I loved Elder Bednar's talk. We do have to have the faith that healing us may not actually be the best thing FOR us. It may not be in God's plan that we be healed of the afflictions here in this life. It may be that there are things we simply cannot learn any other way. And that we need to learn those things to be able to grow enough to return to Heavenly Father. It is learning to trust God's wisdom and his timing in all things. Ultimately all things physical will be healed by the atonement of Jesus Christ at Resurrection. And it will happen because of our faith in Christ.

OI thanks for your remarks.

[AGStacker]

This is what he said: “Even with strong faith, many mountains will not be moved. And not all of the sick and infirmed will be healed. If all opposition were curtailed, if all maladies were removed, then the primary purposes of the Father's plan would be frustrated.”

He didn't contradict Nephi and say that all miracles are done away. Joseph Smith had faith and many of his children died. Joseph Smith had faith and he was killed, along with his brother, by a mob.

Daryl, you shouldn't have any problem reconciling what Elder Bednar said and what Nephi said.

I also agree that some here are overzealous of Denver. The last thing that he wants.

[Ben McClintock]

x

[Rose Garden]

I am sorry I brought the subject up. I am remembering many much sweeter discussions I've had on this board that OI was involved in. It brings me sorrow to see that he's begun being more critical of others and made it difficult to focus on the topic. I am sorry to have brought it up because I got sidetracked and did the same thing. This topic is a great one to discuss and one of the many that I spent months pondering over. It would be so much better if we weren't worried who thought what about whom and could simply discuss the matter.

So again, I'm sorry. OI, if you see this and are offended by my comments, please forgive me.

[Ben McClintock]

x

[creator]

There are always going to be different types of people with different ideas... whether in these 'gospel' discussions or in the 'political' discussions (such as all those that support Romney vs all that support Ron Paul or other)... it's important to not let people's differences cause us to react emotionally - instead we can simply voice our own belief and let it be... you can't change someone else but you can express your own ideas and beliefs and others can choose what they accept or reject.

[A Random Phrase]

This is what he said: “Even with strong faith, many mountains will not be moved. And not all of the sick and infirmed will be healed. If all opposition were curtailed, if all maladies were removed, then the primary purposes of the Father's plan would be frustrated.”

I see Daryl's concern because of the words, "even with strong faith," being used. I have searched in vain for scriptures that say that if one has strong faith one will not be healed because God wishes them to suffer for some reason. The only caveat to being healed that I see in the scriptures is that if it is their time to die, they will not be healed. All scriptures that talk about healing and faith together are 100% for being healed (if not appointed unto death). Yet, one may not have faith to be healed, and still they could have faith to become the sons of God. It is apparently not a crime, nor a sin to lack faith to be healed.

I also see Elder Bednar's point in that people with strong faith still have trials. I think that is what he was trying to point out - faith does not mean it's ice cream sundaes every day. I think he was trying to give strength to live in this increasingly more wicked world. I think he was trying to help people keep faith in God even when times are very trying, perhaps even when it feels impossible to hold on to God.

As for Daryl, I think he is still in the process of sorting things out in his mind. I think he is trying to figure out exactly where truth lies no matter what person, place, or behavior may be involved. I don't condemn that any more than I condemn Elder Bednar for using words that not everyone accepts. I think we should offer charity, mercy, and respect to both the apostle and to Daryl.