Skousen: Building Blocks of the UNIVERSE....

[Mullenite]

Skousen: Building Blocks of the Universe - Part 1

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TRILOGY ONE - Building Blocks of the Universe

By W. Cleon Skousen

This talk was first presented, at the invitation of President Mike Glauser, to approximately 180 missionaries at the Georgia Atlanta Mission on November 2-3 2000. The morning hours were spent covering the basic structure of this presentation. The afternoon hours were spent in answering questions.

Introduction

One of the most gratifying things about going on a mission is the opportunity to really learn about the gospel. And we learn it on two levels.

The first level is what Paul calls the MILK level of the gospel-learning WHAT the actual requirements of the gospel are to lead us back to the presence of the Father, for example, faith, repentance, baptism, the gift of the Holy Ghost, obeying the commandments and enduring to the end. Of course, we don't minimize the sacred importance of the MILK level because it tells you in the most simple terms WHAT you must do to reach the Celestial Kingdom.

The second level is what Paul called the MEAT level which explains WHY each principle of the gospel is essential and HOW it works. So the milk is the WHAT of the gospel. The meat is the WHY and HOW. The difference between milk and meat is made very clear in the scriptures. Here is how Paul distinguished between these two different levels of gospel study. He said:

"I have fed you with milk and not with meat, for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able." (1 Corinthians 3'2)

"Ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God: and are becoming such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. For every one that useth milk is unskillful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of (habitual) use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil. Therefore ("NOT" according to Joseph Smith) leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, LET US GO ON UNTO PERFECTION; not (repeatedly) laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God." (Hebrews 5:12-14 plus 6:1)

Isaiah says the meat belongs to those "who understand doctrine and are weaned from the milk...For precept must be upon precept, line upon line." (Isaiah 28:9-10)

Of course the great challenge to Joseph Smith as the prophetic head of this new dispensation was the fact that he did not receive new knowledge merely line upon line and precept upon precept but LAYER upon LAYER. Sometimes these layers were so enriched with heavy doctrines of gospel meat that Joseph's associates choked on them and denounced both Joseph and the most recent layer of revelation as false and unacceptable. But Joseph's time was short. He could not wait for those who lagged behind. Consequently, ten members of the original Quorum of the Twelve faltered. The two apostles who stood valiantly with the prophet were Brigham Young and Heber C. Kimball.

While on a mission we concentrate on teaching the milk because these are the plain and simple things that are essential to get us back to the Father's Celestial Kingdom. They tell us WHAT to do. The key to success on the milk level is OBEDIENCE, a willingness to follow the essential requirements of the Gospel. Notice that Paul became upset with the saints in his day because he couldn't get them to go beyond the milk and learn the gospel meat AND THEREBY GO ON UNTO PERFECTION. Notice Isaiah's warning that the meat of the gospel cannot be digested by swallowing it in gulps. It must be prayerfully pondered, precept upon precept and line upon line.

THE BLESSING OF HAVING A GREAT TEACHER

I got into the meat of the gospel shortly after I arrived in the British Mission. I was only 17 when I was called on a mission and upon arriving in England I found out that Elder John A. Widtsoe was presiding over all the missions in Europe and he had his headquarters in England. That meant that once in a while I would get to see him.

President Widtsoe was an apostle and a member of the Council of the Twelve. He had been the president of two universities, was a famous scientist, and was considered to be one of the foremost scholars of the gospel in the entire church and had written books on the teachings of both Joseph Smith and the Discourses of Brigham Young.

One day when we were on the train together, I was bold enough to ask Elder Widtsoe a gospel question. I didn't realize it at the time, but my question turned out to be the most profound question in the entire gospel.

I said, "Elder Widtsoe, Why did Jesus have to be crucified?"

He paused and then said, "Who told you to ask me that question?"

I said, "Well nobody. It's my question. When I was a small boy in Canada they would tell us at Easter time how Jesus was lacerated with a whip, how he had a crown of thorns put on his head, with blood running down his face, and how he was nailed to the cross and suffered the most terrible agony. I wondered who in the world wanted all that suffering? If it had a purpose, what was it? Furthermore, how did the crucifixion of Jesus have any thing to do with my salvation?"

Elder Widtsoe thought for a moment and then he said; "I could answer your questions, but you wouldn't understand the answers. You don't know enough about your Heavenly Father."

So I said, "Would you teach me?"

It was an audacious thing to ask a heavily burdened General Authority, but after a moment he said, "Since it is your question maybe you would have enough curiosity and tenacity to pursue the rather tedious task of learning about it-line upon line and precept upon precept- that is the only way you can get the whole picture."

So that's how I stumbled into one of the greatest blessings of my entire life. I became a student of the meat of the gospel under the guidance of Apostle John A. Widtsoe.

Part 1


EVERYTHING IN EXISTENCE IS MADE OUT OF JUST TWO THINGS

A SURPRISE BEGINNING

Elder Widtsoe started me out about a hundred miles away from my original question concerning the crucifixion.

He asked me if I knew that everything in existence was made out of just two things. Well, I had just graduated from high school and I had learned in chemistry about elements. I told him there weren't just two. Chemists had identified over a hundred different elements.

"Oh," he said, "each element is make up of millions of these two tiny particles that I am talking about." So I asked him what these two tiny particles were.

He said: "When the prophet Lehi was on his death bed, he explained to his sons that everything in existence is made out of these two tiny building blocks. See if you can find what he called them in the book of 2 Nephi."

I asked him why he didn't give me the chapter and verse, he said, "Oh, I wouldn't deprive you of the thrill of finding them." This was characteristic of my entire training under John A. Widtsoe. He would describe the principle and tell me ABOUT where to find it and then leave it up to me. I finally located Lehi's statement. He said:

"There is a God, and he hath created ALL things, both the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are, BOTH THINGS TO ACT AND THINGS TO BE ACTED UPON." (2 Nephi 2:14)

Elder Widtsoe then said, "Heavenly Father has called the things which acts by a certain name and the things which is acted upon by another name. These are the two building blocks out of which the Lord has made everything in the entire universe. See if you can find out what he calls them. You will find these names about three fourths the way through the Doctrine and Covenants."

I really had to dig for those verses. Finally I found the names of these building blocks in section 93, verses 29-33.

The Lord said that the thing which "acts " is called an intelligence and that which is acted upon" is called "element" or primal mater. He said these building blocks always existed. They are eternal. (D&C 93:29,33) They cannot be created and they cannot be destroyed, But they can be organized, DISorganized and REorganized.

Since the intelligence is the ingredient that "acts", it is assumed that the elements are inert, or as some have said, "It is just "stuff." However, Brigham Young said that these tiny bits of primal matter or inert particles of stuff, are "capacitated to receive Intelligence." (Journal of Discourses, 7;2) In fact, Brigham Young-who was tutored by the prophet Joseph Smith-seems to have had a complete grasp of the nature of intelligence and its association with primal matter. He said:

There is an eternity of matter, and it is all acted upon and filled with a portion of divinity.[God's organized intelligences,] Matter is to exist; it cannot be annihilated. Eternity is without bounds and is filled with matter; and there is no such thing as empty space. And matter is capacitated to receive intelligence....matter can be organized and brought forth into intelligence, and to possess more intelligence..and to continue to increase in intelligence.learn those principles that organized matter [can be made] into animals, vegetables, and into intelligent beings capacitated to receive intelligence." [Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p. 2-3]

IS THERE INTELLIGENCE IN EVERYTHING?

These principles were thoroughly understood by Joseph Smith and the early brethren. As Apostle John A. Widtsoe said:

"It was clearly comprehended by the Prophet (Joseph Smith) and his associates that intelligence is the vivifying force of all creation-animate or inanimate-the rock and tree and beast and man, have ascending degrees of intelligence."(John A. Widtsoe, Joseph Smith, Seeker After Truth, Deseret News Press, pp. 150-151)

And as Brigham Young Said:

"There is life [or intelligence] in all matter throughout the vast extent of all the eternities; it is in the rock, the sand, in water, air, the gasses, and in short, in every description and organization of matter, whether it be solid, liquid, or gaseous, particle operating with particle." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 3, p. 277)

HOW THE FATHER MANAGES HIS VAST HOST OF INTELLIGENCES

These intelligences have each attached themselves to particles of matter. After this has occurred Abraham refers to them as "organized intelligences." (Abraham 3:22) God can talk to these intelligences and after they have been thoroughly trained, they can conform to the highly complex instruction they receive from the Father, the Son, or members of the Priesthood authorized to perform certain acts under the guidance of the Father or the Son.

The Lord says this elaborate process of training this host of eternal entities to conform to the elaborate complexity of God's design is by having "intelligence cleave unto intelligence" gradually identifying these complex patterns and have mapped out their intricate composition. The patterns are unique for each entity throughout nature and are referred to as their DNA.

Part 2

HOW DO I GET ACQUAINTED WITH MY OWN INDIVIDUAL INTELLIGENCE?

I asked Elder Widtsoe, what an "intelligence" would look like. He told me to look in the mirror since I was an intelligence. I said, "You mean all of me?" he said, "No. just the little "I Am" in you that Heavenly Father has been training ever since he brought you in from outer darkness.

He continued, "We know you were valiant during your training as an intelligence because Father gave you a spirit body patterned after his own. And because you were valiant in the spirit world he has allowed you to have a physical body with millions of intelligences organized in your temporal tabernacle and faithfully serving you here on earth."

"Well," I asked, "where IS my personal intelligence?"

He said, "Put your hand on top of your head. Is that above you or below you?" I said, "It's above Me."

He said, "Take hold of your chin. Is that above you or below you?" I replied, "That's below me."

"Take hold of your ear." I said, "That's beside me."

Then Elder Widtsoe asked, "Where is this little ME you keep talking about?"

I said, "It must be way back in there somewhere."

He replied, "I think so."

I asked, "Is my hand part of ME?" He said, "No. That hand is YOURS, but it is not the ME or little I AM you keep talking about."

I asked Elder Widtsoe why we call the ME in each of us "a little I AM."

He said, "Shut your eyes. Now tell me if you think you actually exist. It is interesting that you actually KNOW you exist As the famous philosopher, Rene Descartes, declared: "Cogito, ergo sum--I think, therefore I am." Descartes was a Frenchman who lived from 1596 to 1650 and is considered by many to be the father of modern philosophy. He believed everything consisted of two things: thinking substance-the mind-and extended substance-or matter. One thing he knew for certain, for fact that he personally existed. And by carefully following a series of propositions, he was certain that God also existed."

At this point, Elder Widtsoe said: "Now, with your eyes shut, first notice your self awareness and then notice that everything else exists OUTSIDE of you. It is outside of your self-existing entity. Like Decartes you know that YOU ARE or to make it more personal, you can say, I AM. This is your individual intelligence talking. You not only know you exist but God says you ALWAYS existed. You didn't have to be created because you were always there. And God was always there. He wasn't always God but he was always an existing entity. When Moses asked God what his name was, he said: "I AM, THAT I AM." (Exodus 3:14) In other words he has always been a self-existing being and we now know that he ascended under his Father's guidance until he became a God. Now, Elder Skousen, your little "I AM" is on that same course of eternal progression. If you are faithful, you can become like your Heavenly Father."

A FURTHER EXAMINATION OF WHERE WE CAME FROM

I asked Elder Widtsoe: "If we always existed, where did we come from?" He said, "Outer Darkness." I asked, "How do we know that?"

He said, "The Lord has revealed what happens to the sons of perdition, and by tracking their disintegration we learn where WE came from. For example, Father Lehi was on his death bed when he addressed his two wicked sons, Laman and Lemuel. He said they were in danger of becoming sons of perdition. They had seen an angel and heard the voice of God reprimanding them for several hours. Lehi therefore said that if they continued to try to murder Nephi and refused to repent of their heinous sins, they would become sons of perdition. Then he told them what that meant. He said they would be stripped of their resurrected bodies, "BOTH BODY AND SOUL" [2 Nephi 1:22]

Brigham Young describes the process of depriving sons of perdition of both body and soul as mentioned by Father Lehi. He said:

"They will be decomposed, both soul and body, and return to their native element. [In other words, the elements of their resurrected bodies will be united with the resurrected earth]....They will be disorganized, and [it]will be as though they never had been, while WE will live and retain our identity, and contend against those principles which tend to death of dissolution....I want to preserve my identity, so that you can see Brigham in the eternal worlds just as you see him now." (Journal of Discourses, vol.)

He further explained that Satan and his angels would be stripped of their spirits. In both cases this leaves the individual intelligence without any embodiment whatever. Each one has lost his former identity, with nothing remaining but the naked, individual intelligence.

No doubt this is what the Lord meant when he said:

Whosoever repenteth not is HEWN down and cast into the fire: and there cometh upon them again a spiritual death, yea, a second death, for they are cut off again as to things pertaining to righteousness." (Helaman 14:1

And again:

"By and by the end cometh, and they are HEWN down and cast into the fire [of outer darkness], from whence there is no return." (3 Nephi 27:11)

At that point I couldn't help asking "What happens to these stripped, disembodied, naked intelligences?"

Elder Widtsoe then called my attention to Doctrine and Covenants, 88:32 where it says that these afflicted entities will "RETURN AGAIN to their own place." The scripture says this means:

"They shall go away into outer darkness, where there is weeping, and wailing, and nashing of teeth." [D&C 133:73]

And in another place it says:

"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast [Satan] and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night FOR EVER AND EVER." [Revelation 20:10]

Of course it would not be just for God to cast the bodies of the sons of perdition into outer darkness just because the master intelligence in charge of each spirit of resurrected sons of perdition had committed an unpardonable sin. Those tiny intelligences in those bodies had been obedient to God. Therefore, the material in the spirits and the resurrected bodies of Satan's hosts will be consigned back to the earth and thereafter be glorified when the earth is celestialized.

The great tragedy of all this is that all those who became servants of Satan can never return. (D&C 29"29) They cannot be swept up in some future round of creation and recycled. Having betrayed God after being endowed with tremendous spiritual blessings they have lost their place in God's program of eternal progression forever. Hundreds of millions of other intelligences are awaiting their turn. Because the sons of perdition have betrayed God they have completely forfeited their eternal blessings.

CAN GOD OR HIS SERVANTS REARRANGE THE BUILDING BLOCKS?

Finally, I said to Elder Widtsoe, "Since everything is made out of the two simple building blocks consisting of intelligence and bits of primal matter, are there any instances where God has transposed one thing into something entirely different?"

"Yes" Elder Widtsoe replied. "God has done this for his prophets so they could comprehend the extent of the Father's supreme power. For Example we have the story of Moses set forth in Exodus, Chapters 3 and 4. "Here is what happened:

When Moses was 80 years of age the Lord commissioned him to go down into Egypt and bring out the enslaved children of Israel.

Moses had left Egypt at the age of 40 under a death warrant for slaying a slave master. Therefore Moses was afraid to return to Egypt. The Lord assured Moses that he would go with him, but Moses was still afraid. Therefore, the Lord determined to demonstrate to his newly called prophet that having the power of God to go with him was a fantastic advantage.

To illustrate his power, God commanded Moses to cast his shepherd's staff onto the ground. When he did so, the staff turned from the fibers of wood in the staff to the cellular flesh of a snake. This greatly frightened Moses and he began to flee, but the Lord told him to pick up the serpent by the tail and when he did so, the cellular flesh of the snake turned back into the wooden fibers of his shepherd's staff.

The Lord then told Moses to put his hand into his bosom. Moses was about to learn something very remarkable about a human hand. To begin with, it is made of dirt, just ordinary common dirt. When the spirit leaves that hand it returns to dirt. But that dirt is saturated with intelligences. So the Lord said to those little entities, don't go back to dirt but simulate leprosy. They did so, and when Moses was told by the Lord to withdraw his hand from his bosom, he was horrified to see it dripping with incurable leprosy. He must have wondered what God was doing to him?

The Lord then told Moses to put his hand back in his bosom, which he gingerly did. Then the Lord commanded the leprous cells to become healthy flesh as they were before. The Lord then told Moses to take his hand from his bosom and when he saw that it was now beautiful pink flesh, he was greatly relieved and gratified beyond expression.

The Lord promised Moses other miracles if they were needed--such as turning water into blood. (Exodus 4:9)

However, this was sufficient to demonstrate the power of God to communicate with the intelligences in matter and thereby change wood to flesh and, later on, produce water gushing out of solid rock. [Numbers 20:11] In the final analysis, everything is made of just two things and God can communicate with the vast host of intelligences to have them become whatever he wishes.

WHERE ARE THE GODS BUILDING THEIR KINGDOMS?

It was also in the early part of my mission that I ran across a statement of the Lord in Section 71 of the D&C addressed to Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon. It said:

"...open your mouths in proclaiming my gospel, the things of the kingdom, expounding the MYSTERIES OUT OF THE SCRIPTURES." D&C 71:1

I told Elder Widtsoe that I didn't know of any mysteries in the scriptures. They seemed very plain to me. Of course this was a 17 year old missionary speaking.

Elder Widtsoe knew this young missionary needed a lesson in humility.

He said, " Elder Skousen, turn to section 88 of the D&C. There are many mysteries in that section of the scripture, and I want to have you explain one of them to me. He said, "For example, I want you to read verse 37 describing God's space." "Oh," I said, "space is easy to define. It's everything from here on out." "Wrong," said Elder Widtsoe. "read Verse 37." It said:

"And there are many kingdoms, for there is no space in which there is no kingdom; and there is no kingdom in which there is no space, either a greater or a lesser kingdom."

A careful analysis of this verse tells us two things. First that "space" is a defined region out in the eternities where the family of the Gods are building their vast network of kingdoms, and second, they do not build any kingdoms outside of "space" or the sacred region under their exclusive control. This is the somewhat hidden meaning of the phrase: "There is no kingdom in which there is no space." Elder Widtsoe said this is one of the mysteries in the scriptures.

I asked Elder Widtsoe why God would call this passage a "mystery in the scriptures." Elder Widtsoe said, "Well that passage contained a revelation defining 'space,' and even though you had read it many times you never understood it. Until today it was a mystery to you." I was beginning to get the idea.

WHAT IS OUTSIDE OF SPACE?

This led me to ask Elder Widtsoe, "Since space is the sacred workshop of the Gods, what is outside or beyond space?"

Elder Widtsoe said the Gods call the region beyond space "outer darkness." So I asked, "What exists in outer darkness?" He said: "Vast, unlimited quantities of UNorganized intelligences and UNorganized bits of primal matter. These are the two building blocks we have been talking about. It is from these vast resources in outer darkness that the Gods gather out the vital elements or building blocks to set up each new round of creation."

Finally I asked: "Who is in charge of outer darkness?" He replied, "No one. The primitive intelligences and bits of primal matter exist in total, disorganized chaos without any organizing power over them or any influence to guide them."

Some of the early brethren suggested the Holy Spirit might be hovering over this outer darkness. Here is Brigham Young's response:

Brother [Orson] Hyde was [dwelling] upon this same theory once, and in conversation with Brother Joseph Smith advanced the idea [that the Holly Spirit might be hovering over the boundless eternities which he mistakenly called boundless space.]

"Brigham Young said that after [Orson had been] portraying his views upon that theory very carefully and minutely. he asked brother Joseph what he thought of it. [Joseph] replied that it appeared very beautiful, and he did not know of but one serious objection to it." Brother Hyde asked, "What is that?" Joseph replied, "It is not true." [Journal of Discourses 4:266]

This is what led the Lord to remind the prophet Isaiah that, "Before me there was no God formed [for you] , neither shall there be after me." [Isaiah 43:10]

In other words, it is a great blessing to be gathered in from outer darkness by our Heavenly Father and be allowed to participate in a round of creation. God wanted Isaiah to also know that if he should betray God and become a son of perdition, there would never be an opportunity to have some other God gather him up and give him another chance.

To help demonstrate these enlightening scriptures concerning "space" and the organizing of Kingdoms by the family of the Gods, we have tried to portray them schematically [along with the scriptural references].

[Darren]

Brother Skousen and Elder Widtsoe were missing something in this line of thinking.

Man is intelligence and element. But to become a God your intelligence and element must obtain a third something.

Virtue.

The candidate for Godhood must obtain Virtue, a matter of Choice, your Will.

What is Virtue? It is the energy of ones will doing the one act that makes your intelligence and element God. And with out this, Darkness.

Look.

Alma 37:

46 O my son, do not let us be slothful because of the easiness of the way; for so was it with our fathers; for so was it prepared for them, that if they would look they might live; even so it is with us. The way is prepared, and if we will look we may live forever.

This is the formula for Eternal Life.

your will looking to God (Virtue), added to intelligence and element.

God Bless,
Darren

[Darren]

Cleon Skousen
I said, "Elder Widtsoe, Why did Jesus have to be crucified?"

3 Ne. 27:13–14.
I came into the world to do the will of my Father, because my Father sent me. And my Father sent me that I might be lifted up upon the cross.

Marion D. Hanks, “Changing Channels,” Ensign, Nov 1990, 38
We are here on this earth to learn, after the example of the Father and the Son, to love enough to give—to use our agency unselfishly. We are here to learn to do the will of the Father.

Learning to do the will of the Father is the simple act of looking to God, always. Something Christ was perfect at doing.

Looking to God is Virtue.

We must learn Virtue.

None of the intelligences or elements would obey Christ if he had not virtue. None of the intelligences or elements will obey us if we do not have virtue.

Virtue is the most important principle of operation in the Universe!

Outer Darkness is where there is no virtue.

How do you get virtue?

Look to God. Always remember him. You give your only possession to Christ, your will. You sell your intelligence to God and buy with it Eternal Life.

This is such an important principle for us to understand. But we spend 90% of our waking hours engaged in selling our intelligence for trivial things, for money, for lusts of the flesh, selling our intelligence to Satan for eternal damnation.

How do you repent of this sickening condition?

Work Together by the Law. Or said another way, Work Together by Looking to God.

God Bless,
Darren

[Proud 2b Peculiar]

It seems that this potential is already in the church, as we all look to God in serving others, paying tithing, giving to the Humanitarian aid fund, helping our neighbors, and things similar to this where there are many like-minded individuals that are pursuing the same course, guided by God through His prophet on earth today.

Watching the work for the dead be performed and the missionary work around the world, I can see this oneness much more clearer then ever before.

[gdemetz]

This article is a very interesting one (see part II also), however, it mentions another idea by Brigham Young that is not revealed church doctrine. That idea is that the sons of perdition would have their bodies dissolved into native element in outer darkness, and that only their individual intelligences would exist in their primitive or original state. However, not only is this not church doctrine and not scriptural, but the opposite was taught by Joseph F.Smith. Joseph F. Smith stated:

"This is what I understand spiritual death is. I do not understand it to be the separation of the body and the spirit again. I do not understand it to be the dissolution of the spirit into its native element."

I agree with Joseph F. Smith on this one.

Brigham Young also taught another doctrine which the church has no official stance on, and that doctrine is that all may be saved if the conditions of proper repentance and punishment were met. He stated:

"The punishment of God is Godlike (see D&C 19). It endures forever, because there will never be a time when people ought not to be damned and there must always be a hell to send them to. How long the damned remain in hell, I know not, nor what degree of suffering they endure.......God's punishment is eternal, but that does not prove that a wicked person will remain eternally in a state of punishment."

All of his statement is not included here, but having read all of it, it is obvious to me that he believed that anyone could keep progressing from any place if the proper conditions were met even if it meant God revoking His decree of punishment. Even though D&C states that there is no advancement from one kingdom to another "worlds without end," I think Brigham Young felt that the proper perspective on that scripture would be that there would always be people who need not to be advanced, or at least that God would be able to REVOKE the decree if the proper conditions were met. The church officially stated, in so many words, that they didn't know.

I personally agree with Brigham Young on this one! It is hard for me to imagine that if one of Heavenly Father's spirit children repented with all of his heart and payed the full price for all the damage his sins had caused, that Heavenly Father would say; what a shame, that's too bad, I still won't forgive you even though the laws of justice have been met. I believe that in a case like that, Heavenly Father would revoke his decreed punishment just as He revoked His decree of punishment to Nineveh.

[Ribble]

I have a question: Are all intelligences 'positive' or for lack of a better word 'good'? It appears to be if God formed and orgnaized them. But then, how is Satan and his minions able to manipulate objects or perform perceived mircles? (ex. wicked priests who challenged Moses). If intelligences only respond to God and his priesthood due to his virtue, then how does the adversary utilize them?

Maybe, just as there is "opposition in all things," this also holds true with intellegences....some choose to follow and obey Satan. Just thinking...

[sourcedist]

I have a question: Are all intelligences 'positive' or for lack of a better word 'good'? It appears to be if God formed and orgnaized them. But then, how is Satan and his minions able to manipulate objects or perform perceived mircles? (ex. wicked priests who challenged Moses). If intelligences only respond to God and his priesthood due to his virtue, then how does the adversary utilize them?

Maybe, just as there is "opposition in all things," this also holds true with intellegences....some choose to follow and obey Satan. Just thinking...

Maybe these intelligences ask permission before obeying such evil' command; which in turn is another test to see which side man will choose.

Or maybe evil forces are given a certain allowance to command the intelligences... trivial tricks if you will..

Remember the adversary was in line to be the master builder.. So he must have had immense knowledge on creation and command of the elements.

[Jason]

I have a question: Are all intelligences 'positive' or for lack of a better word 'good'? It appears to be if God formed and orgnaized them. But then, how is Satan and his minions able to manipulate objects or perform perceived mircles? (ex. wicked priests who challenged Moses). If intelligences only respond to God and his priesthood due to his virtue, then how does the adversary utilize them?

Maybe, just as there is "opposition in all things," this also holds true with intellegences....some choose to follow and obey Satan. Just thinking...

Maybe these intelligences ask permission before obeying such evil' command; which in turn is another test to see which side man will choose.

Or maybe evil forces are given a certain allowance to command the intelligences... trivial tricks if you will..

Remember the adversary was in line to be the master builder.. So he must have had immense knowledge on creation and command of the elements.

The important thing to remember is who's snake came out on top!

[sbsion]

virtue is a portion of the intelligence that you ARE, it is NOT learned, or gifted, either you are or are not..a Principle of intelligence

[gdemetz]

These intelligences are free to act for themselves, they are brought from outer darkness and taught, trained, and placed in the appropriate matter depending upon how they have progressed. The overwhelming majority of these lesser intelligences which make up what is known as the "light of Christ" honor God because they respect what He has done for them and they love Him and sustain Him, and this is the source of God's power (see D&C 88:13). This is the honor or power which Satan coveted (see D&C 29:36). However, if God would not be just (which I'm sure will never happen), He would cease to be God as the BofM states because these intelligences would no longer honor Him. An extremely small fraction of one percent of the intelligences were advanced enough to to born as spirit children of our Heavenly Father, and the most advanced of all, Jehovah, was judged to be born first.

[sbsion]

sex who..........you made this all up. Intelligences, are, as I Am said.......we are

[gdemetz]

This is what the prophets have taught. Of course, the intelligences are self existent. I stated that they were brought from outer darkness.

[sbsion]

self-existant AND "the same yesterday, today, and forever", just manifesting their natures according to environmental stimulii(PLACED to act)

[gdemetz]

I don't agree with that. all intelligences can change, including us. That's what free agency is all about. That's why the prophets always cried "repent." Some did, and some didn't because of their free agency. One might argue that it was because the "stimuli" affected each one differently the same as one might argue that really all our actions are based on selfish motives. Anyhow, however one wants to classify or label it, I want to choose right and make it to the celestial kingdom.

[sbsion]

good luck

[sbsion]

I don't agree with that. all intelligences can change, including us. That's what free agency is all about. That's why the prophets always cried "repent." Some did, and some didn't because of their free agency. One might argue that it was because the "stimuli" affected each one differently the same as one might argue that really all our actions are based on selfish motives. Anyhow, however one wants to classify or label it, I want to choose right and make it to the celestial kingdom.

Intelligences are eternal and "unchangeable", just ask God. Agency doesn't "change" intelligence, just gives them experience. Repentance is the realignement of the spirit BACK to it's intelligence NATURE, btw, choosing the right is not the answer, it's DOING THA T COUNTS

[gdemetz]

What I meant was they experience changes. Intelligences can go through many changes even though they are eternal. They can have a spirit birth where they are incorporated in a spirit, they can go through a physical birth where they are also incorporated into a physical body, etc. They can also experience change by growing in wisdom and knowledge.

[sbsion]

like the DNA of a tree, or the basis of a rock, intelligences ARE, if you want to call wisdom and knowledge a "change", I guess you can, BUT, the basis of and individual intelligences "DNA" never changes. It's ability to comprehend and manifest is all ready determined, hence, by our nature we become a manifestation of it after receiving the first and second tokens, even the MP ones, therefore "who are we to judge"?(btw, that's why Ludifer IS and IS "acceptable" to do "the same thing that has been done....."