Sisters serving missions & forgoing marriage?
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Sirocco
- Praise Me!
- Posts: 3808
Re: Sisters serving missions & forgoing marriage?
That'll be hard I've been a pessimist my whole life lol
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diligentdave
- captain of 10
- Posts: 14
Re: Sisters serving missions & forgoing marriage?
@TrueIntent
Wow! A lot bottled up, with the bottle being shaken, and now it is opened and over-flowing (evidently)!
@TrueIntent, you said (to Sirocco)—
"start with changing your belief.....we become whatever we believe. So believe something different! It will bring more internal peace if you can change that belief into something positive. I just started trying this with all my negative affirmations this last year and it has changed my life.
"
Now, I would ask you, what 'belief' are you talking about? Is this "I'm OK! You'r OK" stuff? 'New Age' positivism? What?
But, the advice you're giving Sirocco, you could use yourself. But try changing your belief to what God advocates for his children.
TIES THAT BIND - THE ONE INCOME FAMILY - Now, on your response to my comment on "the ties that bind", yes, my comment is 'old school'. But you've completely missed much of what was good and right about the 'old school' (which, BTW, lasted for most of nearly 6,000 years)!
I grew up in the 50's, 60's, and early 70's. I remember when mothers stayed home, and, much more than now, had closer to enough children to make the whole enterprise worthwhile (in economics, we call it "economies of scale"). Like the friend of my oldest daughter, who has 10 children (and had them by age 32)—and plans to have more! Friends of mine who, last year, when he turned 50, and she turned 48, gladly, willingly, with full desire on both of their parts, gave birth to their 14th child. And both of these couples 'home school', too! They delight in their children. And, it shows in the demeanor and behavior of their children.
About a decade ago, Elizabeth Warren, the liberal Democrat Senator from Massachussetts, co-authored a book with her daughter titled, "The Two-Income Trap". They show in their book how the majority of 2-income families in our country have screwed things up for both the country, and for those families FINANCIALLY (not to mention, socially, emotionally, etc).
With all it's faults, the one income family was better (for everyone as a whole). But for those who get selfish, and overly greedy, then the focus turns on the individual. I'm guessing you're a fair bit younger than me. And you didn't see things when women held Relief Society meetings on weekdays (during the day). And Primary was held on a weekday, right after school.
DIVORCE - But, since divorce culture has grown so much, many husbands and fathers have also been hurt. Not, by any stretch of the imagination, are all guilty, as your comment on them receiving assistance from the Church implies! Maybe your father was. But I know plenty of men who were good, faithful, kind, and worked hard to please their wife. But were cheated on; dumped; deserted, by women who did not deserve them!
PLAN A vs PLAN B - I am well aware of what it can do to men when their wives on competing with them in the work place (both on an indvidual basis, plus macro-economically).
The whole "woman's movement" has been much more than about the abuses of men to women. It has fostered the neglect of men and children by women. In the 1960's, TV and other ads began focusing (and have never stopped doing so) on mostly just the needs of each and every INDIVIDUAL. "You deserve this!" And, "You deserve that!" And, "Do yourself a favor!" No wonder with all this "You! You! You!" all anyone can think or focus on is "Me! Me! Me!" (It use to be on "Us! Us! Us!" - meaning, on the entire family). Father worked outside the home for the family. Mom stayed at home, and nurtured the children; and was there as a comfort and 'helpmate' for her husband. Cheering him on! Being cheered on, herself, by him! Parents rejoicing in their children. And children learning to truly honor and obey and help their parents, both in their youth, and throughout their lives!
RE: UNRIGHTEOUS DOMINION - TrueIntent, what is a person to do if this counsel, though, is seldom if ever heeded? — And now I would that ye should be humble, and be submissive and gentle; easy to be entreated; full of patience and long-suffering; being temperate in all things
What is one to do if there is PASSIVE RESISTANCE? What is a husband or father to do if his wife and their child/(ren), following their mother's example, kinduv 'go on strike', somewhat permanently, without a good cause or reason to? What is a righteous priesthood holder to do? Should he never, ever raise his voice? Should he never chide, upbraid, scold? For I have seen this done, by some, it's their modus operandi.
When I was younger, and skinny, and played basketball (either as center or forward), someone with more weight or strength (or both), could body bump me from a position I was just trying to hold. But since I would have to "push back" just to "keep my position" on the gym floor, I was ALWAYS called for fouling.
Such, I would say, happens far more often than most would admit, when what becomes labeled "unrighteous dominion" is exercised. It was a major contributor to the divorce of my brother-in-law and sister-in-law. She came out as the "angel", because she wouldn't hearken to her husband, and greatly discouraged their children from hearkening to him either, both by telling them they didn't have to; as well as by her mere example of defiance.
And, I've seen it in far more places.
And I have a daughter who practices unrighteous dominion with her husband; and he, in turn, dumps unrighteous dominion on their two oldest children (because she wears the pants in the family).
LOSING INHIBITIONS BETWEEN SPOUSES & SEXUAL SATISFACTIONI am guessing that since (now) for you your sexual satisfaction with your husband (tossing out all the 'YW garbage' you said you have long been operating on in your bedroom, your sexual satisfaction in the sack now 'goes through the roof', whereas before, it was just normal (i.e., so-so?).
Glad to hear it. I have long thought that the phrase, "and the man and the woman were naked, and were not ashamed" was a hint as to how we (married couples) were suppose to think of things in the bedroom.
You know, Joseph Smith said (or wrote) something once that touches upon sex between a husband and wife—
"Every thing that God gives us is lawful and right, and it is proper that we should ENJOY his gifts and blessings, WHENEVER AND WHEREVER he is disposed to bestow..."
I had a brother-in-law who had divorced, and then lost his business (for not paying income tax, as well as not paying a loan on his building). For a while, he lived with us. Once, he said something that seemed to imply that even sex in marriage was dirty. I suppose he heard me and his sister (my wife) 'going at it' in our bedroom oftimes. And even though he was, himself, the father of seven children; he still had false notions of sex being 'dirty', etc.
I know I had to work at getting over the false inhibitions I acquired from my mother. But, we need to teach and reinforce that in marriage, sex is (or should) be wonderful for both parties!
BEAMS AND PERFECTION - Yes, indeed, one should work at removing beams from their own eye/s, before attempting to remove motes from others. But when participants in a marriage are always 'playing politics' in what they do and won't do, to try to manipulate their spouse, or just being lazy, it bodes ill for both spouses in a marriage.
The so-called "perfection" women claim that their husbands demand from them, I don't see. I DO see often where they are much more prone to please OTHERS than they are their husbands! Not because their husbands are hard to please. Nor that their husbands don't do much for them. They often "climb mountains" (as it were) for them. But, when little if any thanks are ever given their husbands, though they may both thank and show by action to their wives they are grateful for what their wives do for them, things are out of kelter!
When I talk about giving an "A" effort, I am NOT talking about perfection. More like what Elder Holland said in last General Conference about "and those who try to do". TRYING goes a long ways. And NOT TRYING even a little, ALSO can be very evident—especially, when one is so lackadaisical most all the time. Being given a request to do something, and taking half an hour, an hour, or longer (if ever) to even BEGIN doing something. When Facebook, Solitaire, Sudoku, emails, and Netflix all take precedence over one's living and (yes, still breathing) spouse (EITHER direction)—NOT JUST ONCE, but pretty much as a RULE, then there is DEFINITELY a problem!
CULTURAL HONESTY I know a woman who didn't express what she wanted in her marriage until almost 34 years into her marriage. I don't know if SHE knew what she wanted before then. Was she 'dishonest', or just hadn't figured out WHAT she wanted?
If we're going to talk about 'HONESTY', then besides all the gays we let out of the closet, and all those who don't want to be housewives, cooks, etc, then lets let all the adulterers, fornicators, child molestors, liars, thieves, and murderers "out of the closet"?
If someone says they are going to steal from you, are they HONEST?
Are we BORN to be a certain way? Or, are we, like Sirocco seems to advocate, (and you are bidding him to change), BELIEVE what we do, and we can't CHANGE what we BELIEVE?
Tough questions, that deserve GENUINE (if not honest) answers!
Wow! A lot bottled up, with the bottle being shaken, and now it is opened and over-flowing (evidently)!
@TrueIntent, you said (to Sirocco)—
"start with changing your belief.....we become whatever we believe. So believe something different! It will bring more internal peace if you can change that belief into something positive. I just started trying this with all my negative affirmations this last year and it has changed my life.
"Now, I would ask you, what 'belief' are you talking about? Is this "I'm OK! You'r OK" stuff? 'New Age' positivism? What?
But, the advice you're giving Sirocco, you could use yourself. But try changing your belief to what God advocates for his children.
TIES THAT BIND - THE ONE INCOME FAMILY - Now, on your response to my comment on "the ties that bind", yes, my comment is 'old school'. But you've completely missed much of what was good and right about the 'old school' (which, BTW, lasted for most of nearly 6,000 years)!
I grew up in the 50's, 60's, and early 70's. I remember when mothers stayed home, and, much more than now, had closer to enough children to make the whole enterprise worthwhile (in economics, we call it "economies of scale"). Like the friend of my oldest daughter, who has 10 children (and had them by age 32)—and plans to have more! Friends of mine who, last year, when he turned 50, and she turned 48, gladly, willingly, with full desire on both of their parts, gave birth to their 14th child. And both of these couples 'home school', too! They delight in their children. And, it shows in the demeanor and behavior of their children.
About a decade ago, Elizabeth Warren, the liberal Democrat Senator from Massachussetts, co-authored a book with her daughter titled, "The Two-Income Trap". They show in their book how the majority of 2-income families in our country have screwed things up for both the country, and for those families FINANCIALLY (not to mention, socially, emotionally, etc).
With all it's faults, the one income family was better (for everyone as a whole). But for those who get selfish, and overly greedy, then the focus turns on the individual. I'm guessing you're a fair bit younger than me. And you didn't see things when women held Relief Society meetings on weekdays (during the day). And Primary was held on a weekday, right after school.
DIVORCE - But, since divorce culture has grown so much, many husbands and fathers have also been hurt. Not, by any stretch of the imagination, are all guilty, as your comment on them receiving assistance from the Church implies! Maybe your father was. But I know plenty of men who were good, faithful, kind, and worked hard to please their wife. But were cheated on; dumped; deserted, by women who did not deserve them!
PLAN A vs PLAN B - I am well aware of what it can do to men when their wives on competing with them in the work place (both on an indvidual basis, plus macro-economically).
The whole "woman's movement" has been much more than about the abuses of men to women. It has fostered the neglect of men and children by women. In the 1960's, TV and other ads began focusing (and have never stopped doing so) on mostly just the needs of each and every INDIVIDUAL. "You deserve this!" And, "You deserve that!" And, "Do yourself a favor!" No wonder with all this "You! You! You!" all anyone can think or focus on is "Me! Me! Me!" (It use to be on "Us! Us! Us!" - meaning, on the entire family). Father worked outside the home for the family. Mom stayed at home, and nurtured the children; and was there as a comfort and 'helpmate' for her husband. Cheering him on! Being cheered on, herself, by him! Parents rejoicing in their children. And children learning to truly honor and obey and help their parents, both in their youth, and throughout their lives!
RE: UNRIGHTEOUS DOMINION - TrueIntent, what is a person to do if this counsel, though, is seldom if ever heeded? — And now I would that ye should be humble, and be submissive and gentle; easy to be entreated; full of patience and long-suffering; being temperate in all things
What is one to do if there is PASSIVE RESISTANCE? What is a husband or father to do if his wife and their child/(ren), following their mother's example, kinduv 'go on strike', somewhat permanently, without a good cause or reason to? What is a righteous priesthood holder to do? Should he never, ever raise his voice? Should he never chide, upbraid, scold? For I have seen this done, by some, it's their modus operandi.
When I was younger, and skinny, and played basketball (either as center or forward), someone with more weight or strength (or both), could body bump me from a position I was just trying to hold. But since I would have to "push back" just to "keep my position" on the gym floor, I was ALWAYS called for fouling.
Such, I would say, happens far more often than most would admit, when what becomes labeled "unrighteous dominion" is exercised. It was a major contributor to the divorce of my brother-in-law and sister-in-law. She came out as the "angel", because she wouldn't hearken to her husband, and greatly discouraged their children from hearkening to him either, both by telling them they didn't have to; as well as by her mere example of defiance.
And, I've seen it in far more places.
And I have a daughter who practices unrighteous dominion with her husband; and he, in turn, dumps unrighteous dominion on their two oldest children (because she wears the pants in the family).
LOSING INHIBITIONS BETWEEN SPOUSES & SEXUAL SATISFACTIONI am guessing that since (now) for you your sexual satisfaction with your husband (tossing out all the 'YW garbage' you said you have long been operating on in your bedroom, your sexual satisfaction in the sack now 'goes through the roof', whereas before, it was just normal (i.e., so-so?).
Glad to hear it. I have long thought that the phrase, "and the man and the woman were naked, and were not ashamed" was a hint as to how we (married couples) were suppose to think of things in the bedroom.
You know, Joseph Smith said (or wrote) something once that touches upon sex between a husband and wife—
"Every thing that God gives us is lawful and right, and it is proper that we should ENJOY his gifts and blessings, WHENEVER AND WHEREVER he is disposed to bestow..."
I had a brother-in-law who had divorced, and then lost his business (for not paying income tax, as well as not paying a loan on his building). For a while, he lived with us. Once, he said something that seemed to imply that even sex in marriage was dirty. I suppose he heard me and his sister (my wife) 'going at it' in our bedroom oftimes. And even though he was, himself, the father of seven children; he still had false notions of sex being 'dirty', etc.
I know I had to work at getting over the false inhibitions I acquired from my mother. But, we need to teach and reinforce that in marriage, sex is (or should) be wonderful for both parties!
BEAMS AND PERFECTION - Yes, indeed, one should work at removing beams from their own eye/s, before attempting to remove motes from others. But when participants in a marriage are always 'playing politics' in what they do and won't do, to try to manipulate their spouse, or just being lazy, it bodes ill for both spouses in a marriage.
The so-called "perfection" women claim that their husbands demand from them, I don't see. I DO see often where they are much more prone to please OTHERS than they are their husbands! Not because their husbands are hard to please. Nor that their husbands don't do much for them. They often "climb mountains" (as it were) for them. But, when little if any thanks are ever given their husbands, though they may both thank and show by action to their wives they are grateful for what their wives do for them, things are out of kelter!
When I talk about giving an "A" effort, I am NOT talking about perfection. More like what Elder Holland said in last General Conference about "and those who try to do". TRYING goes a long ways. And NOT TRYING even a little, ALSO can be very evident—especially, when one is so lackadaisical most all the time. Being given a request to do something, and taking half an hour, an hour, or longer (if ever) to even BEGIN doing something. When Facebook, Solitaire, Sudoku, emails, and Netflix all take precedence over one's living and (yes, still breathing) spouse (EITHER direction)—NOT JUST ONCE, but pretty much as a RULE, then there is DEFINITELY a problem!
CULTURAL HONESTY I know a woman who didn't express what she wanted in her marriage until almost 34 years into her marriage. I don't know if SHE knew what she wanted before then. Was she 'dishonest', or just hadn't figured out WHAT she wanted?
If we're going to talk about 'HONESTY', then besides all the gays we let out of the closet, and all those who don't want to be housewives, cooks, etc, then lets let all the adulterers, fornicators, child molestors, liars, thieves, and murderers "out of the closet"?
If someone says they are going to steal from you, are they HONEST?
Are we BORN to be a certain way? Or, are we, like Sirocco seems to advocate, (and you are bidding him to change), BELIEVE what we do, and we can't CHANGE what we BELIEVE?
Tough questions, that deserve GENUINE (if not honest) answers!
-
TrueIntent
- captain of 100
- Posts: 974
Re: Sisters serving missions & forgoing marriage?
diligentdave wrote:@TrueIntent
Wow! A lot bottled up, with the bottle being shaken, and now it is opened and over-flowing (evidently)!
@TrueIntent, you said (to Sirocco)—
"start with changing your belief.....we become whatever we believe. So believe something different! It will bring more internal peace if you can change that belief into something positive. I just started trying this with all my negative affirmations this last year and it has changed my life.
Now, I would ask you, what 'belief' are you talking about? Is this "I'm OK! You'r OK" stuff? 'New Age' positivism? What?
The scriptures...Proverbs 23:7
7 For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he....didn't joseph smith teach that "all truth comes from God." So sure, new age positivism..whatever, as long as it's truth.
But, the advice you're giving Sirocco, you could use yourself. But try changing your belief to what God advocates for his children.
I thought I was advocating what the Savior taught.
TIES THAT BIND - THE ONE INCOME FAMILY - Now, on your response to my comment on "the ties that bind", yes, my comment is 'old school'. But you've completely missed much of what was good and right about the 'old school' (which, BTW, lasted for most of nearly 6,000 years)!
I grew up in the 50's, 60's, and early 70's. I remember when mothers stayed home, and, much more than now, had closer to enough children to make the whole enterprise worthwhile (in economics, we call it "economies of scale"). Like the friend of my oldest daughter, who has 10 children (and had them by age 32)—and plans to have more! Friends of mine who, last year, when he turned 50, and she turned 48, gladly, willingly, with full desire on both of their parts, gave birth to their 14th child. And both of these couples 'home school', too! They delight in their children. And, it shows in the demeanor and behavior of their children.
About a decade ago, Elizabeth Warren, the liberal Democrat Senator from Massachussetts, co-authored a book with her daughter titled, "The Two-Income Trap". They show in their book how the majority of 2-income families in our country have screwed things up for both the country, and for those families FINANCIALLY (not to mention, socially, emotionally, etc).
With all it's faults, the one income family was better (for everyone as a whole). But for those who get selfish, and overly greedy, then the focus turns on the individual. I'm guessing you're a fair bit younger than me. And you didn't see things when women held Relief Society meetings on weekdays (during the day). And Primary was held on a weekday, right after school.
I'm not disagreeing that somethings are better for families than others, I just believe in agency first and fostering a culture where people can freely express their beliefs without being ridiculed for them...anything else can breed hypocrisy and deceit.
DIVORCE - But, since divorce culture has grown so much, many husbands and fathers have also been hurt. Not, by any stretch of the imagination, are all guilty, as your comment on them receiving assistance from the Church implies! Maybe your father was. But I know plenty of men who were good, faithful, kind, and worked hard to please their wife. But were cheated on; dumped; deserted, by women who did not deserve them!
I don't disagree. Men and women are hurt in divorce. sometimes it's the man's fault, sometimes its the woman....the vast majority of time it is both.
PLAN A vs PLAN B - I am well aware of what it can do to men when their wives on competing with them in the work place (both on an indvidual basis, plus macro-economically).
The whole "woman's movement" has been much more than about the abuses of men to women. It has fostered the neglect of men and children by women. In the 1960's, TV and other ads began focusing (and have never stopped doing so) on mostly just the needs of each and every INDIVIDUAL. "You deserve this!" And, "You deserve that!" And, "Do yourself a favor!" No wonder with all this "You! You! You!" all anyone can think or focus on is "Me! Me! Me!" (It use to be on "Us! Us! Us!" - meaning, on the entire family). Father worked outside the home for the family. Mom stayed at home, and nurtured the children; and was there as a comfort and 'helpmate' for her husband. Cheering him on! Being cheered on, herself, by him! Parents rejoicing in their children. And children learning to truly honor and obey and help their parents, both in their youth, and throughout their lives!
I like this...i just view helpmate differently than you do....i see it more as a team mate.
RE: UNRIGHTEOUS DOMINION - TrueIntent, what is a person to do if this counsel, though, is seldom if ever heeded? — And now I would that ye should be humble, and be submissive and gentle; easy to be entreated; full of patience and long-suffering; being temperate in all things
Oh, i don't know...you really have two options...turn the other cheek or get a divorce.
What is one to do if there is PASSIVE RESISTANCE? What is a husband or father to do if his wife and their child/(ren), following their mother's example, kinduv 'go on strike', somewhat permanently, without a good cause or reason to? What is a righteous priesthood holder to do? Should he never, ever raise his voice? Should he never chide, upbraid, scold? For I have seen this done, by some, it's their modus operandi.
When I was younger, and skinny, and played basketball (either as center or forward), someone with more weight or strength (or both), could body bump me from a position I was just trying to hold. But since I would have to "push back" just to "keep my position" on the gym floor, I was ALWAYS called for fouling.
Such, I would say, happens far more often than most would admit, when what becomes labeled "unrighteous dominion" is exercised. It was a major contributor to the divorce of my brother-in-law and sister-in-law. She came out as the "angel", because she wouldn't hearken to her husband, and greatly discouraged their children from hearkening to him either, both by telling them they didn't have to; as well as by her mere example of defiance.
And, I've seen it in far more places.
And I have a daughter who practices unrighteous dominion with her husband; and he, in turn, dumps unrighteous dominion on their two oldest children (because she wears the pants in the family).
For the record....i can't stand people who are passive aggressive. They really are the Pharisees and scribes of the Savior's day. I have had to deal with this in family relationships and it is enough to make one crazy. If you are dealing with passive aggressive people, may I suggest an excellent book that helped me. "Wolf in Sheep's Clothing: understanding and dealing with manipulative people." While it doesn't give you a lot of solutions (because there aren't many...you can only control you)....it does help you to discern this behavior more clearly and address it in a direct manner.
LOSING INHIBITIONS BETWEEN SPOUSES & SEXUAL SATISFACTIONI am guessing that since (now) for you your sexual satisfaction with your husband (tossing out all the 'YW garbage' you said you have long been operating on in your bedroom, your sexual satisfaction in the sack now 'goes through the roof', whereas before, it was just normal (i.e., so-so?).
Glad to hear it. I have long thought that the phrase, "and the man and the woman were naked, and were not ashamed" was a hint as to how we (married couples) were suppose to think of things in the bedroom.
You know, Joseph Smith said (or wrote) something once that touches upon sex between a husband and wife—
"Every thing that God gives us is lawful and right, and it is proper that we should ENJOY his gifts and blessings, WHENEVER AND WHEREVER he is disposed to bestow..."
I had a brother-in-law who had divorced, and then lost his business (for not paying income tax, as well as not paying a loan on his building). For a while, he lived with us. Once, he said something that seemed to imply that even sex in marriage was dirty. I suppose he heard me and his sister (my wife) 'going at it' in our bedroom oftimes. And even though he was, himself, the father of seven children; he still had false notions of sex being 'dirty', etc.
I know I had to work at getting over the false inhibitions I acquired from my mother. But, we need to teach and reinforce that in marriage, sex is (or should) be wonderful for both parties!
Yes...the point I was trying to make is that cultural baggage can affect our relationships...even when we don't realize it. In your case it was the baggage from your mother...where did she learn it...culture? church? Yw? in the end, it doesn't matter where it's learned...if it causes us to suffer in our relationships, then we're probably attaching false beliefs to the teachings. On I side note...my sex life was inhibited emotionally...not physically. Meaning...were doing all the same things we did before just with much more affection, love, intensity..etc. If I am using "new age" terms
BEAMS AND PERFECTION - Yes, indeed, one should work at removing beams from their own eye/s, before attempting to remove motes from others. But when participants in a marriage are always 'playing politics' in what they do and won't do, to try to manipulate their spouse, or just being lazy, it bodes ill for both spouses in a marriage.
The so-called "perfection" women claim that their husbands demand from them, I don't see. I DO see often where they are much more prone to please OTHERS than they are their husbands! Not because their husbands are hard to please. Nor that their husbands don't do much for them. They often "climb mountains" (as it were) for them. But, when little if any thanks are ever given their husbands, though they may both thank and show by action to their wives they are grateful for what their wives do for them, things are out of kelter!
When I talk about giving an "A" effort, I am NOT talking about perfection. More like what Elder Holland said in last General Conference about "and those who try to do". TRYING goes a long ways. And NOT TRYING even a little, ALSO can be very evident—especially, when one is so lackadaisical most all the time. Being given a request to do something, and taking half an hour, an hour, or longer (if ever) to even BEGIN doing something. When Facebook, Solitaire, Sudoku, emails, and Netflix all take precedence over one's living and (yes, still breathing) spouse (EITHER direction)—NOT JUST ONCE, but pretty much as a RULE, then there is DEFINITELY a problem!
CULTURAL HONESTY I know a woman who didn't express what she wanted in her marriage until almost 34 years into her marriage. I don't know if SHE knew what she wanted before then. Was she 'dishonest', or just hadn't figured out WHAT she wanted? Or had she just been told what she was supposed to want and then believed it, only to discover she never really wanted that in the first place
If we're going to talk about 'HONESTY', then besides all the gays we let out of the closet, and all those who don't want to be housewives, cooks, etc, then lets let all the adulterers, fornicators, child molestors, liars, thieves, and murderers "out of the closet"? Interesting that you lump all those together...here is what I would say....Jesus didn't condemn the woman taken in adultery...He said, he who is without sin let him cast the first stone...We don't know why someone is where they are in their life, or why they have made the choices they made. Sometimes people are born in really poor circumstances morally and temporally...I have learned to be a little more merciful because I have not walked in their shoes. We should give people the space to be honest about their choices without judging them because we just don't know what they have been through.
If someone says they are going to steal from you, are they HONEST? Sure....about the fact that they are going to steal from you.
Are we BORN to be a certain way? Or, are we, like Sirocco seems to advocate, (and you are bidding him to change), BELIEVE what we do, and we can't CHANGE what we BELIEVE? I have a better question...are we born with a personality...that has desires and wants unique to only us...were we taught and prepared in the spirit world for what we would specifically face...did we come into this world with that personality...and we only changed because society, culture, etc. compells us to do what "they say" is right...not what God says. This is what the Savior was trying to teach when he spoke against the pharisees.
Tough questions, that deserve GENUINE (if not honest) answers!
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TrueIntent
- captain of 100
- Posts: 974
Re: Sisters serving missions & forgoing marriage?
Give that pessimism to the Savior, he has already paid the price. he can change anyone's heart.Sirocco wrote:That'll be hard I've been a pessimist my whole life lol
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Sirocco
- Praise Me!
- Posts: 3808
Re: Sisters serving missions & forgoing marriage?
Another thing, though less talked about but certainly an issue that will be a problem sooner rather then later, is the overtaking of men in the workforce by women.
Being 27 going on 28 my job is well pretty lousy but it gives me everything I need (eg the money to do the things I want to do) by this age all the men in previous generations in my family had families, I don't, and I have nothing to really work towards besides my own wants.
I am only a breadwinner to myself, and since women don't marry down, and they continue to go up and up and men realize they're not going to land a good partner so they stop trying.
I think women assume men are going to be there when they get to "the top" and they quickly find out there's no one there but other women.
All single in their 30s and who knows what will become of them, nothing good I imagine.
Right now I am saving up to travel, I want to go birding in India.
What a crazy concept, but for one lone guy it's a pretty easy goal.
Feminism has liberated women, but not in the way they wanted, it's shown the men they can do whatever they want, and what they want isn't trying to marry some horrid millennial, it's focusing on their own wants and dreams, which, at least for me, don't involve a family (I know that's unlikely, and even if my mental illnesses weren't likely to get passed down, I can barely hold onto friends, I'd fail at a relationship, and I have started to make peace I won't have a family. I have embraced the new way, in a sense, because it's either that or wither and die, the old way is gone, and I can't lay around and feel sad for an age I never got to have a crack at).
Being 27 going on 28 my job is well pretty lousy but it gives me everything I need (eg the money to do the things I want to do) by this age all the men in previous generations in my family had families, I don't, and I have nothing to really work towards besides my own wants.
I am only a breadwinner to myself, and since women don't marry down, and they continue to go up and up and men realize they're not going to land a good partner so they stop trying.
I think women assume men are going to be there when they get to "the top" and they quickly find out there's no one there but other women.
All single in their 30s and who knows what will become of them, nothing good I imagine.
Right now I am saving up to travel, I want to go birding in India.
What a crazy concept, but for one lone guy it's a pretty easy goal.
Feminism has liberated women, but not in the way they wanted, it's shown the men they can do whatever they want, and what they want isn't trying to marry some horrid millennial, it's focusing on their own wants and dreams, which, at least for me, don't involve a family (I know that's unlikely, and even if my mental illnesses weren't likely to get passed down, I can barely hold onto friends, I'd fail at a relationship, and I have started to make peace I won't have a family. I have embraced the new way, in a sense, because it's either that or wither and die, the old way is gone, and I can't lay around and feel sad for an age I never got to have a crack at).
-
TrueIntent
- captain of 100
- Posts: 974
Re: Sisters serving missions & forgoing marriage?
Sirocco wrote:Another thing, though less talked about but certainly an issue that will be a problem sooner rather then later, is the overtaking of men in the workforce by women.
Being 27 going on 28 my job is well pretty lousy but it gives me everything I need (eg the money to do the things I want to do) by this age all the men in previous generations in my family had families, I don't, and I have nothing to really work towards besides my own wants.
I am only a breadwinner to myself, and since women don't marry down, and they continue to go up and up and men realize they're not going to land a good partner so they stop trying.
I think women assume men are going to be there when they get to "the top" and they quickly find out there's no one there but other women.
All single in their 30s and who knows what will become of them, nothing good I imagine.
Right now I am saving up to travel, I want to go birding in India.
What a crazy concept, but for one lone guy it's a pretty easy goal.
Feminism has liberated women, but not in the way they wanted, it's shown the men they can do whatever they want, and what they want isn't trying to marry some horrid millennial, it's focusing on their own wants and dreams, which, at least for me, don't involve a family (I know that's unlikely, and even if my mental illnesses weren't likely to get passed down, I can barely hold onto friends, I'd fail at a relationship, and I have started to make peace I won't have a family. I have embraced the new way, in a sense, because it's either that or wither and die, the old way is gone, and I can't lay around and feel sad for an age I never got to have a crack at).
just curious, what kind of mental illness do you have that would prevent you from having children? Are you willing to share? I'm just curious because I know people who are bi-polar, hoarders, one with ocd and potentially schizophrenia who have had families.
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Sirocco
- Praise Me!
- Posts: 3808
Re: Sisters serving missions & forgoing marriage?
I'll PM you, I dislike discussing it much.TrueIntent wrote:Sirocco wrote:Another thing, though less talked about but certainly an issue that will be a problem sooner rather then later, is the overtaking of men in the workforce by women.
Being 27 going on 28 my job is well pretty lousy but it gives me everything I need (eg the money to do the things I want to do) by this age all the men in previous generations in my family had families, I don't, and I have nothing to really work towards besides my own wants.
I am only a breadwinner to myself, and since women don't marry down, and they continue to go up and up and men realize they're not going to land a good partner so they stop trying.
I think women assume men are going to be there when they get to "the top" and they quickly find out there's no one there but other women.
All single in their 30s and who knows what will become of them, nothing good I imagine.
Right now I am saving up to travel, I want to go birding in India.
What a crazy concept, but for one lone guy it's a pretty easy goal.
Feminism has liberated women, but not in the way they wanted, it's shown the men they can do whatever they want, and what they want isn't trying to marry some horrid millennial, it's focusing on their own wants and dreams, which, at least for me, don't involve a family (I know that's unlikely, and even if my mental illnesses weren't likely to get passed down, I can barely hold onto friends, I'd fail at a relationship, and I have started to make peace I won't have a family. I have embraced the new way, in a sense, because it's either that or wither and die, the old way is gone, and I can't lay around and feel sad for an age I never got to have a crack at).
just curious, what kind of mental illness do you have that would prevent you from having children? Are you willing to share? I'm just curious because I know people who are bi-polar, hoarders, one with ocd and potentially schizophrenia who have had families.
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diligentdave
- captain of 10
- Posts: 14
Re: Sisters serving missions & forgoing marriage?
I know that the "team" concept is pushed big time today. And, I'm not saying it wasn't also anciently (being "equally yoked" certainly meant more than just having the same religion). But whereas men, as priesthood holders, are generally thought to be one's 'presiding', then that means that by deference to authority, their decision typically should prevail. But, I know that by saying that, you, and every woman out there (and many men) will be "all over me".
But as I understand the covenants we make in the House of the Lord, it is the wife who covenants to hearken to her husband (yes, with stipulations). But, and I understand as well as anyone that it cannot, should not ever be 'forced', or 'shoved down anyone's throat', at all. But, I've seen where wives will say, "I'm doing it this way - it's my turn to decide", and this too, IMO, can be a form of not only 'unrighteous dominion', but actually 'unrighteous rebellion'.
We need to be careful of opinions and wishes and desires in both directions. The feelings of men are as important as those of women. And vice versa.
And, I would disagree about 'divorce' being the only thing that can be done. One might 'long suffer' (even through their whole marriage with this). But, I think, the bottom line in either side pushing their desires on the other without not only consent, but pleasingly, and fully freely, it won't work in the long run.
There are many people who are afraid (for a long time) to make their own wishes known, even when their spouse or another or others try in different ways and by different means to coax it out of them. In an Economics textbook by the famed Paul Samuelson, he wrote, "Sometimes silence is golden. And sometimes, its just plain yellow!" I would concur with that view.
Sometimes, you don't realize until years, or even decades, into a relationship (husband and wife, among other relationships), that some have a cowardice to vocalize their wants and desires—letting them build up, until the dam breaks. Then they act as if they were 'stream-rolled' by the other person in the relationship, even when the other person always worked to solicit from them their true thoughts and feelings on a constant basis.
Regarding "passive-aggressive", an adult child in our extended family has accused a parent of that. I don't think that that parent is forcibly hypocritical or manipulative. But I do think that that person silently conspires to get their way by circumventing their spouse, often enough with their children.
On the woman who took 1/3 of a century to figure out what she wanted - she was definitely not told what she should want, per se. She was more one who also didn't vocalize any desires she may have had before, and bottled it all up, even though there was a constant solicitation by her spouse for her to speak up with what she wanted.
As far as 'lumping things together', and then you resorting to the story of the woman taken in adultery (and note, if you will, since it takes "two to tango"—if the woman was caught in adultery, certainly, there had to be a man ALSO caught in it simultaneously—why didn't the 'elders' bring HIM to be stoned)???
But you talked about people being UP FRONT, and HONEST regarding their desires. But you are presupposing that people ALREADY KNOW their desires, and just don't vocalize them.
There may be 'some' truth to that. But like in my example, the person who didn't vocalize, "all of a sudden" (or within a year or so) crystallized her thoughts FINALLY as to what she wanted. When it comes to thinking, a lot of people don't work at the 'heavy lifting' that is required for that. For, to be sure, 'mental work', for most people, is harder, and more difficult (and hence "impossible") for them to do, than lifting great amounts of weight, or enduring in strenuous or stressful effort for long periods of time.
Every week, I find that usually NOBODY but the Gospel Doctrine instructor, and myself, have read the reading assignment, have pondered the passages of scripture, and worked on things to discuss, ask about, give examples about, etc, in Sunday School. It is as if Sunday School was a talk show, with no one having an idea of what the topic of discussion would be for a given audience—but many have comments, as uninformed, or un-thought-through though they may be. And then, of course, there are those who are either contemplative or cowardly in EVER (or almost never) speaking up. Some, probably are merely contremplative—but, since you asked for HONESTY, I would venture to guess that some of them also are COWARDS—afraid of having someone, anyone. disagree with what they say.
You find, when you lift weights most every day, lifting weights is easier. And, you can lift greater amounts of weight more easily, and more often, without getting totally wiped out physically.
Mentally, intellectually, emotionally, spiritually, this is true too in "pondering the solemnities of eternity". Just as Joseph Smith pointed out how "wiped out" Sidney Rigdon was when they both had the vision that resulted in Section 76 on the various kingdoms of glory. But, Joseph Smith, was, comparatively, hardly phased at all—he did better, because he had had a lot more experience in receiving revelations.
But we generally fall more for those with their 'touchy' 'feely' comments in Church, than those who have a "sound understanding" of things, and express it having pondered it more carefully, with a longer view of things. And, just as we see in politics, where bad choices are made when we ascent to mere 'populism' (people with itching ears like those who scratch them the way they want to be scratched), we end up with not just one, but two very lousy presidential candidates.
A note on what you are saying about sexuality (I'm NOT trying to be rude, but honest in what you said about 'oral sex', how and/or what you were taught about chastity and/or modesty, etc in YW, etc), and generally what you were taught in Church about it, you quasi sound somewhat similar to folks who said stuff like this—
But behold, it is the effect of a frenzied mind; and this derangement of your minds comes because of the traditions of your fathers, which lead you away into a belief of things which are not so.
17 And many more such things did he say unto them, telling them that there could be no atonement made for the sins of men, but every man fared in this life according to the management of the creature; therefore every man prospered according to his genius, and that every man conquered according to his strength; and whatsoever a man did was no crime.
18 And thus he did preach unto them, leading away the hearts of many, causing them to lift up their heads in their wickedness, yea, leading away many women, and also men, to commit whoredoms—telling them that when a man was dead, that was the end thereof.
(Alma 30:16–18)
Now, TrueIntent, I'm NOT saying that YOU are saying this EXACTLY. But, the TONE of what you said on this subject EVOKED these words in my mind.
I think "the brethren" would still rather not have members engage in 'oral sex'. However, specifically bringing it up (in temple recommend interviews, as you pointed out), made things too uncomfortable, or something.
You know, if this happened back in the 80's (as I suspect it did), we had a young bishop (then in his 20's, and we were in our 30's or 40's) who danced around something like this (but he was too embarrassed to actually explicitly say what the GA's DIDN'T WANT members to do)—so, I can only ASSUME that this is the 'delicate subject' (about 'oral sex') you mentioned—since I've never had any priesthood authority EVER actually bring it up SPECIFICALLY with me, in a temple recommend or any interview! (LOL)!!!
But, going back to what you said about the woman caught in adultery, I too, have over the years become far, far, far less judgemental than I use to be (although I am still very judgemental—and I find most everyone else is too—just about DIFFERENT THINGS).
You talked about your dad "coming out of the closet" and revealing his 'true self'.
To suppose that people are 'BORN' as homosexuals, though, to me, is the same as supposing people are 'BORN' predisposed to lie, cheat, steal, fornicate, etc, etc, etc.
Evidently, to 'some extent' we ARE—but we can CHANGE, as you have been trying to persuade Sirocco to do. Again, his willingness to change is obviously affected by what he BELIEVES what he can, AND CANNOT change. And, obviously, he doesn't believe he can change much.
Of course, also, whatever mental illness he has, affects him. Having a child of mine with it, (who has been married—not totally happily, for her or her husband—but, NOT totally SADLY ALSO for both or either of them. This is the 'mixed bag' and 'package deals' we get in life. Ourselves and our spouses (or 'would be' spouses) are good in some areas, and not as good in others.
We ain't perfect, like something manufactured on the shelf. BUT, we are ALL MUCH MORE CAPABLE of MANY GOOD THINGS, than ANYTHING on ANY shelf!!!
But as I understand the covenants we make in the House of the Lord, it is the wife who covenants to hearken to her husband (yes, with stipulations). But, and I understand as well as anyone that it cannot, should not ever be 'forced', or 'shoved down anyone's throat', at all. But, I've seen where wives will say, "I'm doing it this way - it's my turn to decide", and this too, IMO, can be a form of not only 'unrighteous dominion', but actually 'unrighteous rebellion'.
We need to be careful of opinions and wishes and desires in both directions. The feelings of men are as important as those of women. And vice versa.
And, I would disagree about 'divorce' being the only thing that can be done. One might 'long suffer' (even through their whole marriage with this). But, I think, the bottom line in either side pushing their desires on the other without not only consent, but pleasingly, and fully freely, it won't work in the long run.
There are many people who are afraid (for a long time) to make their own wishes known, even when their spouse or another or others try in different ways and by different means to coax it out of them. In an Economics textbook by the famed Paul Samuelson, he wrote, "Sometimes silence is golden. And sometimes, its just plain yellow!" I would concur with that view.
Sometimes, you don't realize until years, or even decades, into a relationship (husband and wife, among other relationships), that some have a cowardice to vocalize their wants and desires—letting them build up, until the dam breaks. Then they act as if they were 'stream-rolled' by the other person in the relationship, even when the other person always worked to solicit from them their true thoughts and feelings on a constant basis.
Regarding "passive-aggressive", an adult child in our extended family has accused a parent of that. I don't think that that parent is forcibly hypocritical or manipulative. But I do think that that person silently conspires to get their way by circumventing their spouse, often enough with their children.
On the woman who took 1/3 of a century to figure out what she wanted - she was definitely not told what she should want, per se. She was more one who also didn't vocalize any desires she may have had before, and bottled it all up, even though there was a constant solicitation by her spouse for her to speak up with what she wanted.
As far as 'lumping things together', and then you resorting to the story of the woman taken in adultery (and note, if you will, since it takes "two to tango"—if the woman was caught in adultery, certainly, there had to be a man ALSO caught in it simultaneously—why didn't the 'elders' bring HIM to be stoned)???
But you talked about people being UP FRONT, and HONEST regarding their desires. But you are presupposing that people ALREADY KNOW their desires, and just don't vocalize them.
There may be 'some' truth to that. But like in my example, the person who didn't vocalize, "all of a sudden" (or within a year or so) crystallized her thoughts FINALLY as to what she wanted. When it comes to thinking, a lot of people don't work at the 'heavy lifting' that is required for that. For, to be sure, 'mental work', for most people, is harder, and more difficult (and hence "impossible") for them to do, than lifting great amounts of weight, or enduring in strenuous or stressful effort for long periods of time.
Every week, I find that usually NOBODY but the Gospel Doctrine instructor, and myself, have read the reading assignment, have pondered the passages of scripture, and worked on things to discuss, ask about, give examples about, etc, in Sunday School. It is as if Sunday School was a talk show, with no one having an idea of what the topic of discussion would be for a given audience—but many have comments, as uninformed, or un-thought-through though they may be. And then, of course, there are those who are either contemplative or cowardly in EVER (or almost never) speaking up. Some, probably are merely contremplative—but, since you asked for HONESTY, I would venture to guess that some of them also are COWARDS—afraid of having someone, anyone. disagree with what they say.
You find, when you lift weights most every day, lifting weights is easier. And, you can lift greater amounts of weight more easily, and more often, without getting totally wiped out physically.
Mentally, intellectually, emotionally, spiritually, this is true too in "pondering the solemnities of eternity". Just as Joseph Smith pointed out how "wiped out" Sidney Rigdon was when they both had the vision that resulted in Section 76 on the various kingdoms of glory. But, Joseph Smith, was, comparatively, hardly phased at all—he did better, because he had had a lot more experience in receiving revelations.
But we generally fall more for those with their 'touchy' 'feely' comments in Church, than those who have a "sound understanding" of things, and express it having pondered it more carefully, with a longer view of things. And, just as we see in politics, where bad choices are made when we ascent to mere 'populism' (people with itching ears like those who scratch them the way they want to be scratched), we end up with not just one, but two very lousy presidential candidates.
A note on what you are saying about sexuality (I'm NOT trying to be rude, but honest in what you said about 'oral sex', how and/or what you were taught about chastity and/or modesty, etc in YW, etc), and generally what you were taught in Church about it, you quasi sound somewhat similar to folks who said stuff like this—
But behold, it is the effect of a frenzied mind; and this derangement of your minds comes because of the traditions of your fathers, which lead you away into a belief of things which are not so.
17 And many more such things did he say unto them, telling them that there could be no atonement made for the sins of men, but every man fared in this life according to the management of the creature; therefore every man prospered according to his genius, and that every man conquered according to his strength; and whatsoever a man did was no crime.
18 And thus he did preach unto them, leading away the hearts of many, causing them to lift up their heads in their wickedness, yea, leading away many women, and also men, to commit whoredoms—telling them that when a man was dead, that was the end thereof.
(Alma 30:16–18)
Now, TrueIntent, I'm NOT saying that YOU are saying this EXACTLY. But, the TONE of what you said on this subject EVOKED these words in my mind.
I think "the brethren" would still rather not have members engage in 'oral sex'. However, specifically bringing it up (in temple recommend interviews, as you pointed out), made things too uncomfortable, or something.
You know, if this happened back in the 80's (as I suspect it did), we had a young bishop (then in his 20's, and we were in our 30's or 40's) who danced around something like this (but he was too embarrassed to actually explicitly say what the GA's DIDN'T WANT members to do)—so, I can only ASSUME that this is the 'delicate subject' (about 'oral sex') you mentioned—since I've never had any priesthood authority EVER actually bring it up SPECIFICALLY with me, in a temple recommend or any interview! (LOL)!!!
But, going back to what you said about the woman caught in adultery, I too, have over the years become far, far, far less judgemental than I use to be (although I am still very judgemental—and I find most everyone else is too—just about DIFFERENT THINGS).
You talked about your dad "coming out of the closet" and revealing his 'true self'.
To suppose that people are 'BORN' as homosexuals, though, to me, is the same as supposing people are 'BORN' predisposed to lie, cheat, steal, fornicate, etc, etc, etc.
Evidently, to 'some extent' we ARE—but we can CHANGE, as you have been trying to persuade Sirocco to do. Again, his willingness to change is obviously affected by what he BELIEVES what he can, AND CANNOT change. And, obviously, he doesn't believe he can change much.
Of course, also, whatever mental illness he has, affects him. Having a child of mine with it, (who has been married—not totally happily, for her or her husband—but, NOT totally SADLY ALSO for both or either of them. This is the 'mixed bag' and 'package deals' we get in life. Ourselves and our spouses (or 'would be' spouses) are good in some areas, and not as good in others.
We ain't perfect, like something manufactured on the shelf. BUT, we are ALL MUCH MORE CAPABLE of MANY GOOD THINGS, than ANYTHING on ANY shelf!!!
-
diligentdave
- captain of 10
- Posts: 14
Re: Sisters serving missions & forgoing marriage?
A FEW FINE POINTS—
Re:
(I said) Now, I would ask you, what 'belief' are you talking about? Is this "I'm OK! You'r OK" stuff? 'New Age' positivism? What?
(TrueIntent said) The scriptures...Proverbs 23:7
7 For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he....didn't joseph smith teach that "all truth comes from God." So sure, new age positivism..whatever, as long as it's truth.
(I NOW say): I think that Proverbs 23:7 might be a bit misunderstood.
For "more light and knowledge", let's consult what the Savior said (I believe) on this topic—
Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature? —Matthew 6:27
"As a man thinketh..." can encompass a lot of things. The Savior's reply here makes it clear, I believe, that just by "thinking" we can do something, we can't, forcibly. Other factors come into play!
For example, for Sirocco, his experience in some apparently bad habits he has (or something), and the reactions of others (particularly eligible marriable women) affects "how he thinks...". It cannot be escaped.
Now, I am not saying that Sirocco should forget about getting married (for, I think there are a lot of women, good women in the Church), from whom he could find someone to marry (and both would be happier together, than both separately).
But, I think one point he made is both valid and is a key factor in our current culture—
Sirocco wrote:
Another thing, though less talked about but certainly an issue that will be a problem sooner rather then later, is the overtaking of men in the workforce by women.
Being 27 going on 28 my job is well pretty lousy but it gives me everything I need (eg the money to do the things I want to do) by this age all the men in previous generations in my family had families, I don't, and I have nothing to really work towards besides my own wants.
I am only a breadwinner to myself, and since women don't marry down, and they continue to go up and up and men realize they're not going to land a good partner so they stop trying.
I think women assume men are going to be there when they get to "the top" and they quickly find out there's no one there but other women.
All single in their 30s and who knows what will become of them, nothing good I imagine.
Here is some scripture that I believe backs up, in part, the point Sirocco is making—
And my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they who lead thee cause thee to err and destroy the way of thy paths. —2 Nephi 13:12
How do "women rule over (us)"?
Well, one very near future possibility could involve a POTUS (Hillary). Either big party candidates, BTW, make me afraid for my nation, BTW.
But, I would say, that in other ways "women rule over (us)".
As Sirocco has pointed out, such has become so, to some greater extent, in the workplace.
In higher education, the majority overall of those attending colleges, universities, and graduating are, women. Hence, in higher education, women now "rule"!
Despite all that so many say about the LDS Church priesthood hierarchy, and where men (supposedly still) "rule over women", I have found such to not necessarily be true.
In marriage, more and more women have and do "wear the pants" in families. I have one daughter who does. Her husband answers to her (and NEVER the other way around). She berates him very often, and often severely. He berates their oldest children, because they are the only ones "he can rule over".
Someone very close to me has had his wife take over their marriage, after over 30 years of marriage. His income dropped with the economic depression stuff (it was never very high), and she now attempts to dictate to him most things. Often, she just 'bypasses' him. Does things, or has things done, without consulting him. Or taking authority to dispose of items he purchased (and not for himself) when he thought he responded "positively" to something she said - next thing you knew, items that cost him hundreds of dollars to buy were sold, literally, for change at a scrap metal place.
This "taking control" by the wife, has also caused him to not try as hard as before in his work. He doesn't feel incentivized. He's become a peon to her.
Sirocco's point, also, on women "not marrying down" is a point that was made by a fellow who observed that women attending college and university, since the ratio of them to men were higher, meant college women were "treated cheaper" by men (them, men, getting sex with women, without marriage). He said he doesn't see things changing from that because women "rule" (in numbers) in "institutions of higher education." I'd have to agree with him on that (though I disparage absolutely sex outside of marriage).
This same fellow, who wrote a book and has given lectures on this, said that things were better (for men) in "Silicone Valley", since in the 'schools' there, the ratio of men to women is much higher. Hence, women, being more scarce, are treated much better. And both the marriage rate is higher, and the divorce rate, believe it or not, is somewhat lower!
Re:
(I said) Now, I would ask you, what 'belief' are you talking about? Is this "I'm OK! You'r OK" stuff? 'New Age' positivism? What?
(TrueIntent said) The scriptures...Proverbs 23:7
7 For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he....didn't joseph smith teach that "all truth comes from God." So sure, new age positivism..whatever, as long as it's truth.
(I NOW say): I think that Proverbs 23:7 might be a bit misunderstood.
For "more light and knowledge", let's consult what the Savior said (I believe) on this topic—
Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature? —Matthew 6:27
"As a man thinketh..." can encompass a lot of things. The Savior's reply here makes it clear, I believe, that just by "thinking" we can do something, we can't, forcibly. Other factors come into play!
For example, for Sirocco, his experience in some apparently bad habits he has (or something), and the reactions of others (particularly eligible marriable women) affects "how he thinks...". It cannot be escaped.
Now, I am not saying that Sirocco should forget about getting married (for, I think there are a lot of women, good women in the Church), from whom he could find someone to marry (and both would be happier together, than both separately).
But, I think one point he made is both valid and is a key factor in our current culture—
Sirocco wrote:
Another thing, though less talked about but certainly an issue that will be a problem sooner rather then later, is the overtaking of men in the workforce by women.
Being 27 going on 28 my job is well pretty lousy but it gives me everything I need (eg the money to do the things I want to do) by this age all the men in previous generations in my family had families, I don't, and I have nothing to really work towards besides my own wants.
I am only a breadwinner to myself, and since women don't marry down, and they continue to go up and up and men realize they're not going to land a good partner so they stop trying.
I think women assume men are going to be there when they get to "the top" and they quickly find out there's no one there but other women.
All single in their 30s and who knows what will become of them, nothing good I imagine.
Here is some scripture that I believe backs up, in part, the point Sirocco is making—
And my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they who lead thee cause thee to err and destroy the way of thy paths. —2 Nephi 13:12
How do "women rule over (us)"?
Well, one very near future possibility could involve a POTUS (Hillary). Either big party candidates, BTW, make me afraid for my nation, BTW.
But, I would say, that in other ways "women rule over (us)".
As Sirocco has pointed out, such has become so, to some greater extent, in the workplace.
In higher education, the majority overall of those attending colleges, universities, and graduating are, women. Hence, in higher education, women now "rule"!
Despite all that so many say about the LDS Church priesthood hierarchy, and where men (supposedly still) "rule over women", I have found such to not necessarily be true.
In marriage, more and more women have and do "wear the pants" in families. I have one daughter who does. Her husband answers to her (and NEVER the other way around). She berates him very often, and often severely. He berates their oldest children, because they are the only ones "he can rule over".
Someone very close to me has had his wife take over their marriage, after over 30 years of marriage. His income dropped with the economic depression stuff (it was never very high), and she now attempts to dictate to him most things. Often, she just 'bypasses' him. Does things, or has things done, without consulting him. Or taking authority to dispose of items he purchased (and not for himself) when he thought he responded "positively" to something she said - next thing you knew, items that cost him hundreds of dollars to buy were sold, literally, for change at a scrap metal place.
This "taking control" by the wife, has also caused him to not try as hard as before in his work. He doesn't feel incentivized. He's become a peon to her.
Sirocco's point, also, on women "not marrying down" is a point that was made by a fellow who observed that women attending college and university, since the ratio of them to men were higher, meant college women were "treated cheaper" by men (them, men, getting sex with women, without marriage). He said he doesn't see things changing from that because women "rule" (in numbers) in "institutions of higher education." I'd have to agree with him on that (though I disparage absolutely sex outside of marriage).
This same fellow, who wrote a book and has given lectures on this, said that things were better (for men) in "Silicone Valley", since in the 'schools' there, the ratio of men to women is much higher. Hence, women, being more scarce, are treated much better. And both the marriage rate is higher, and the divorce rate, believe it or not, is somewhat lower!
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Sirocco
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Re: Sisters serving missions & forgoing marriage?
I've had sex a lot, not something I am proud of but, i have resisted alcohol and that could ruin my life and kill me so I have made the better choice, vice wise.
I don't have high aspirations because I have no real drive to meet someone and marry because women are frightening, in the sense she could destroy me financially, emotionally, run my life and treat me like garbage and even destroy precious things I own.
I don't want to work really hard just so I can marry a lousy person, and my generation is full of them lol. I'd really prefer to just be alone. My options are low, no matter if I stay out of the church or return to going like I used to. They all seem quite the same, one group just masking their intentions in religion and the other being upfront about it.
I don't want to be a peon, an atm or whatever.
So far that's all I've been seen as and I've kept people at a good length.
Everyone I've met to try and date has been just awful.
I mean the people I have relations with are little better but I am not committing there.
And I never wanted to find myself at this place, but I realized my idealistic hope of marriage with someone who actually liked me and legit wanted to be with me, was pretty stupid so I'd better "play the field" like other men to get something.
I don't have high aspirations because I have no real drive to meet someone and marry because women are frightening, in the sense she could destroy me financially, emotionally, run my life and treat me like garbage and even destroy precious things I own.
I don't want to work really hard just so I can marry a lousy person, and my generation is full of them lol. I'd really prefer to just be alone. My options are low, no matter if I stay out of the church or return to going like I used to. They all seem quite the same, one group just masking their intentions in religion and the other being upfront about it.
I don't want to be a peon, an atm or whatever.
So far that's all I've been seen as and I've kept people at a good length.
Everyone I've met to try and date has been just awful.
I mean the people I have relations with are little better but I am not committing there.
And I never wanted to find myself at this place, but I realized my idealistic hope of marriage with someone who actually liked me and legit wanted to be with me, was pretty stupid so I'd better "play the field" like other men to get something.
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Darren
- captain of 1,000
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Re: Sisters serving missions & forgoing marriage?
Marriage vs. Mission
http://sisteratwood.blogspot.com/2016/0 ... ssion.html
I have planned on going on a mission my entire life. Forever.
Both my parents are RMs and I honestly didn't know until I was maybe 9 that everyone didn't serve missions. I thought both guys and girls served missions before they got married.
Consequently, I harbored some resentment against those who chose to get married instead of going on a mission. I just didn't understand. There was your whole life to get married, plus eternity after that, so why not serve a mission first? My mother got married at 23 and she is my hero, so that seemed like the perfect age. All these women getting married younger than that, well that is just crazy!
Obviously, I had some stuff to figure out about life.
In high school I remember going to wedding receptions of people not that much older than me and being very weirded out by the whole thing.
And in university when girls on my team or in my classes were getting engaged, well that was weird too. For someone who never had a boyfriend the idea that people my age were ready for marriage was like a system overload. It didn't compute. (That was really nerdy, but I just picture a little robot in my head crashing into things with smoke coming out of its brain when couples get married young)
Then one of my best friends got engaged. And I was at home, not at school and so I missed the whole "them dating and falling in love" part. But this girl, she is the wisest person in my squad, and so if she was ready for marriage than she was ready for marriage and I trusted that.
Her engagement and subsequent marriage got me thinking. Thinking about my squad and my friends. Because this was the start of my close friends getting married. At 20 years old this was the beginning of the end. Soon our adventures would all include our husbands and our children. It could never go back to the way it was. (That all sounds really dramatic but that is where my head was for a while)
And Heavenly Father, Oh, my loving Heavenly Father who knows my heart. Who is very aware of the aforementioned thoughts and feelings I had. Who gives us opportunities to grow whether we want to or not...
*Sigh*
Recently, I had an interesting experience. Where I felt the spirit prompting me towards a young man I am acquainted with. And that threw me for a loop. Without going into details. Without mentioning names. Without divulging anything that you don't need to know. I was having a trial of faith over this.
That sounds so dramatic. All of this sounds so dramatic. But really, it was this life-changing moment where all of a sudden, Up was Down. Left was Right. And I didn't know if I was supposed to be preparing for mission or marriage. (Full disclosure: I hadn't even gone on a date with aforementioned young man)
BUT STILL!
I was questioning everything. Why would I feel this prompting when Heavenly Father KNEW I was going on a mission? Him and I had TALKED about this! I was going on a mission. It had been the plan for years. So why was He now changing the plan?
I began to feel that my preparations to go on a mission were taking too long. I had missed my chance. The people I needed to teach had already been taught by some sisters way more prepared than I. And so I might as well skip the mission and just get married. (Seriously, I know how screwed up that thinking is, reading it over now I don't even want you to read it, because I am so embarrassed by it. I'm sorry.)
And so, when facing a trial of faith such as this, do you know what I did? I started praying. More often. More earnestly. With more determination for an answer than ever. Because I was so very confused.
I looked at how to transfer from my school in Virginia to his school. I thought long and hard about how to come to grips with not serving a mission. I read the scriptures and every talk I could find on dating and marriage. And I worked on my Pinterest account (the most crucial part of course).
But most important of all, I moved forward in faith. If this is what Heavenly Father wanted me to do than okay. I would change my plans.
In this time I had so many heart to hearts with my Father in Heaven. I would just walk and talk to Him as if He was standing right next to me.
After weeks of asking and praying and searching for guidance I felt peace about continuing my preparation to serve a mission. And it didn't feel like there was this huge weight off my shoulders. Or that all my dreams were coming true. I had accepted Heavenly Father's will, no matter what it was, and when the answer came I was prepared to receive it.
So to all my friends who are married/getting married at a young age, you do you. As long as you are doing Heavenly Father's will kudos to you.
And it is hard choosing between two good things.
Mission vs. Marriage
But that mission versus marriage thing is dumb anyways. Go on a mission then get married. Get married then go on a mission. Let your mission be your marriage. God will use you to further the work in whatever way He sees fit. Our job is just to be worthy of being His servants. And I believe in you.
Love, Em
http://sisteratwood.blogspot.com/2016/0 ... ssion.html
http://sisteratwood.blogspot.com/2016/0 ... ssion.html
I have planned on going on a mission my entire life. Forever.
Both my parents are RMs and I honestly didn't know until I was maybe 9 that everyone didn't serve missions. I thought both guys and girls served missions before they got married.
Consequently, I harbored some resentment against those who chose to get married instead of going on a mission. I just didn't understand. There was your whole life to get married, plus eternity after that, so why not serve a mission first? My mother got married at 23 and she is my hero, so that seemed like the perfect age. All these women getting married younger than that, well that is just crazy!
Obviously, I had some stuff to figure out about life.
In high school I remember going to wedding receptions of people not that much older than me and being very weirded out by the whole thing.
And in university when girls on my team or in my classes were getting engaged, well that was weird too. For someone who never had a boyfriend the idea that people my age were ready for marriage was like a system overload. It didn't compute. (That was really nerdy, but I just picture a little robot in my head crashing into things with smoke coming out of its brain when couples get married young)
Then one of my best friends got engaged. And I was at home, not at school and so I missed the whole "them dating and falling in love" part. But this girl, she is the wisest person in my squad, and so if she was ready for marriage than she was ready for marriage and I trusted that.
Her engagement and subsequent marriage got me thinking. Thinking about my squad and my friends. Because this was the start of my close friends getting married. At 20 years old this was the beginning of the end. Soon our adventures would all include our husbands and our children. It could never go back to the way it was. (That all sounds really dramatic but that is where my head was for a while)
And Heavenly Father, Oh, my loving Heavenly Father who knows my heart. Who is very aware of the aforementioned thoughts and feelings I had. Who gives us opportunities to grow whether we want to or not...
*Sigh*
Recently, I had an interesting experience. Where I felt the spirit prompting me towards a young man I am acquainted with. And that threw me for a loop. Without going into details. Without mentioning names. Without divulging anything that you don't need to know. I was having a trial of faith over this.
That sounds so dramatic. All of this sounds so dramatic. But really, it was this life-changing moment where all of a sudden, Up was Down. Left was Right. And I didn't know if I was supposed to be preparing for mission or marriage. (Full disclosure: I hadn't even gone on a date with aforementioned young man)
BUT STILL!
I was questioning everything. Why would I feel this prompting when Heavenly Father KNEW I was going on a mission? Him and I had TALKED about this! I was going on a mission. It had been the plan for years. So why was He now changing the plan?
I began to feel that my preparations to go on a mission were taking too long. I had missed my chance. The people I needed to teach had already been taught by some sisters way more prepared than I. And so I might as well skip the mission and just get married. (Seriously, I know how screwed up that thinking is, reading it over now I don't even want you to read it, because I am so embarrassed by it. I'm sorry.)
And so, when facing a trial of faith such as this, do you know what I did? I started praying. More often. More earnestly. With more determination for an answer than ever. Because I was so very confused.
I looked at how to transfer from my school in Virginia to his school. I thought long and hard about how to come to grips with not serving a mission. I read the scriptures and every talk I could find on dating and marriage. And I worked on my Pinterest account (the most crucial part of course).
But most important of all, I moved forward in faith. If this is what Heavenly Father wanted me to do than okay. I would change my plans.
In this time I had so many heart to hearts with my Father in Heaven. I would just walk and talk to Him as if He was standing right next to me.
After weeks of asking and praying and searching for guidance I felt peace about continuing my preparation to serve a mission. And it didn't feel like there was this huge weight off my shoulders. Or that all my dreams were coming true. I had accepted Heavenly Father's will, no matter what it was, and when the answer came I was prepared to receive it.
So to all my friends who are married/getting married at a young age, you do you. As long as you are doing Heavenly Father's will kudos to you.
And it is hard choosing between two good things.
Mission vs. Marriage
But that mission versus marriage thing is dumb anyways. Go on a mission then get married. Get married then go on a mission. Let your mission be your marriage. God will use you to further the work in whatever way He sees fit. Our job is just to be worthy of being His servants. And I believe in you.
Love, Em
http://sisteratwood.blogspot.com/2016/0 ... ssion.html
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plainness
- captain of 100
- Posts: 106
Re: Sisters serving missions & forgoing marriage?
The sisters should not be blah blah blah.
What a fetished and silly oversight.
Here's a question: Darren, what about a woman who is so intimiately acquainted with Jesus that she has ZERO concern for the prescriptive and shallow expectations of her identity, value, and purpose? What about women who hear and discern clearly they're calling to manifest Christ to the world? Like any disciple? Or are you worried that your sons and sons-in-law will have to churn butter themselves? And darn their own socks?
Yes, bearing, raising, and mothering children is glorious. But is it more urgent than worshipping God and manifesting His love and power to a fallen world?
Sheesh, man, you write as if true religion is eugenics and tribalism! Poor guy. The world doesn't need more LDS babies. It needs more disciples who walk in Truth, Power and Love.
Who says serving a mission diminishes a woman's purpose? Good heck. You write as if a woman called to evangelize is a woman lost, who can't contribute to a desperate cause that can't afford for her to give two, or four, or six years to something that doesn't involve marriage.
What about the women who heal the sick and restore sight to the blind? What about the women who lead mighty, Zion styled ministries to the poor in Africa?
Does God say, "oh darn it, I hoped she'd get married and bear children to Brother Sorenson. Now I don't know if there's still time, because she's healing the sick in my name and feeding orphans."
Hardly. I look forward to a day when woman set fire to cities and nations because they walk in every capacity of belief and gifting. And who says they can't do this before, during, and after raising some children?
My daughters and my sons need to know these women.
What a fetished and silly oversight.
Here's a question: Darren, what about a woman who is so intimiately acquainted with Jesus that she has ZERO concern for the prescriptive and shallow expectations of her identity, value, and purpose? What about women who hear and discern clearly they're calling to manifest Christ to the world? Like any disciple? Or are you worried that your sons and sons-in-law will have to churn butter themselves? And darn their own socks?
Yes, bearing, raising, and mothering children is glorious. But is it more urgent than worshipping God and manifesting His love and power to a fallen world?
Sheesh, man, you write as if true religion is eugenics and tribalism! Poor guy. The world doesn't need more LDS babies. It needs more disciples who walk in Truth, Power and Love.
Who says serving a mission diminishes a woman's purpose? Good heck. You write as if a woman called to evangelize is a woman lost, who can't contribute to a desperate cause that can't afford for her to give two, or four, or six years to something that doesn't involve marriage.
What about the women who heal the sick and restore sight to the blind? What about the women who lead mighty, Zion styled ministries to the poor in Africa?
Does God say, "oh darn it, I hoped she'd get married and bear children to Brother Sorenson. Now I don't know if there's still time, because she's healing the sick in my name and feeding orphans."
Hardly. I look forward to a day when woman set fire to cities and nations because they walk in every capacity of belief and gifting. And who says they can't do this before, during, and after raising some children?
My daughters and my sons need to know these women.
Last edited by plainness on September 26th, 2016, 8:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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plainness
- captain of 100
- Posts: 106
Re: Sisters serving missions & forgoing marriage?
Is Darren a druid? God help him. Nordic-Germanic what the heck is he talking about? 8-|
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Darren
- captain of 1,000
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Re: Sisters serving missions & forgoing marriage?
Luckily the Progressive Movement has only caught hold upon the Culture and not the Leadership, otherwise the Church's priorities for young women would be to give them the opportunities of the men before the responsibilities of Womanhood. But if the culture has its way they would eventually substitute words like "should" (as it applies to sisters serving missions) where our leaders have only said "may," as an excuse for the direction the culture has been going with the young women.
I don't fault our leaders for the runaway train of Progressivism prevalent in the Mormon Culture, but I will raise my voice about the problem.
As for the lost tribes of Israel information, Cleon Skousen was very clear that the way to save ourselves from The Cleansing was to get back to the roots of where our country inherited freedom from, as he also agreed with the Church Historian Leonard J. Arrington on this subject, that those roots come from our Northern European Heritage, Law Culture. Also Archibald F. Bennett, recognized as the foremost authority on genealogy and leading the church's related microfilming effort stated that, "The Church's genealogical records prove that the Icelandic Sagas are true, that Odin did in fact live and reign in the North." as a beginning narrative to our Law Culture.
Our Anglo/Saxon/Jute heritage has more to do with True Culture than the day-dreams of Progressives.
God Bless,
Darren
I don't fault our leaders for the runaway train of Progressivism prevalent in the Mormon Culture, but I will raise my voice about the problem.
As for the lost tribes of Israel information, Cleon Skousen was very clear that the way to save ourselves from The Cleansing was to get back to the roots of where our country inherited freedom from, as he also agreed with the Church Historian Leonard J. Arrington on this subject, that those roots come from our Northern European Heritage, Law Culture. Also Archibald F. Bennett, recognized as the foremost authority on genealogy and leading the church's related microfilming effort stated that, "The Church's genealogical records prove that the Icelandic Sagas are true, that Odin did in fact live and reign in the North." as a beginning narrative to our Law Culture.
Our Anglo/Saxon/Jute heritage has more to do with True Culture than the day-dreams of Progressives.
God Bless,
Darren
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plainness
- captain of 100
- Posts: 106
Re: Sisters serving missions & forgoing marriage?
Darren, I have to ask- was it the Orthodox/Babylon culture that prevailed in 1978 when the Teutonic/Nordic/Anglo chosen people decided to allow the Subsarahan mixed blood to enter the fullness of the Germanic/Nordic covenant Priesthood? Against generations of Nordic/Germanic aversion to such a corrupt idea?
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DesertWonderer
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 1178
Re: Sisters serving missions & forgoing marriage?
I think they all "should" go before marriage just as the men "should" go. Who knows, maybe using the term "may" go is the church's way of gradually "turning the ship" of outdated cultural norms so that eventually it will be expected of all lds young people.Darren wrote:Luckily the Progressive Movement has only caught hold upon the Culture and not the Leadership, otherwise the Church's priorities for young women would be to give them the opportunities of the men before the responsibilities of Womanhood. But if the culture has its way they would eventually substitute words like "should" (as it applies to sisters serving missions) where our leaders have only said "may," as an excuse for the direction the culture has been going with the young women.
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Darren
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 2720
- Location: Leading the lost tribes of Israel to Zion
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Re: Sisters serving missions & forgoing marriage?
The Harder Path
September 25, 2016
“May we ever choose the harder right instead of the easier wrong” (President Thomas S. Monson, “Choices”).
Many of my Church parents gave me counsel and said that marriage is hard, but Jerome and I had played husband and wife for three months prior to our sealing so I was so sure that we’d be the exception. Just as I suspected, our marriage has been unique, but not because we were the exception; our marriage has been unique because I doubt many couples faced as many problems as we have in the span of two months of marriage.
It seems to me that some of the select few who know what has been going in the Reyes’ home don’t agree with some, or most, of the choices we’ve made and they may even think that all the obstacles in our way are of our doing for going against the world’s way (finish school, get married, have kids when established). One of the main reasons we came to earth is to experience things and to develop traits that will help us become more like our Father and, in order to do so, we must follow our Savior’s example.
Elder Jeffrey R. Holland shared a post on Facebook where he described an experience from when he was recently married and struggling. In the post, he explained that he looked at his wife and said, “Honey, should we give up? I can get a good job and carve out a good living for us. I can do some things. I’ll be okay without a degree. Should we stop trying to tackle what right now seems so difficult to face?” and, in his talk “Like a Broken Vessel,” Elder Holland also admitted to having clinical depression. An apostle of the Lord and his wife once experienced things similar to what Jerome and I (and probably many of you) are going through right now. Do you think he would be who he is today if he didn’t choose the harder path, fully aware that there was an easier, more idle one?
Often times the pain and suffering we go through on earth are what builds our faith in our Savior and our Father, and sometimes the pain and suffering are placed because of our obedience, not just because of our disobedience. Jerome and I knew that leaving our homes and families would be hard, that we would struggle financially for years if we married young, and that having children would be difficult enough even if we finished school and were financially stable, but Heavenly Father allows us to prove to ourselves that we have a deep, but ever growing, testimony in the gospel and faith in our Savior when we choose the harder path.
The harder path isn’t always the most desirable one, but it will help you familiarize yourself with your Heavenly Father. It is often the path that will make you struggle at the beginning, but rejoice at the end. It is the path that the adversary doesn’t want you take, but will lead you to exaltation.
Our Savior’s life was difficult so, if we are supposed to do all we can to be like Him, why wouldn’t ours be, too?
“Once you make a decision concerning whom you would desire to marry, may you have the courage to move forward” (President Thomas S. Monson, “Whom Shall I Marry?”).
This quote helped me decide to pick marriage over a mission, and it also helped me realize that no one should delay marraige if they’ve received revelation that Heavenly Father approves of their partnership, even if they have financial fears or if others disagree.
https://jilliankyraandjerome.com/
September 25, 2016
“May we ever choose the harder right instead of the easier wrong” (President Thomas S. Monson, “Choices”).
Many of my Church parents gave me counsel and said that marriage is hard, but Jerome and I had played husband and wife for three months prior to our sealing so I was so sure that we’d be the exception. Just as I suspected, our marriage has been unique, but not because we were the exception; our marriage has been unique because I doubt many couples faced as many problems as we have in the span of two months of marriage.
It seems to me that some of the select few who know what has been going in the Reyes’ home don’t agree with some, or most, of the choices we’ve made and they may even think that all the obstacles in our way are of our doing for going against the world’s way (finish school, get married, have kids when established). One of the main reasons we came to earth is to experience things and to develop traits that will help us become more like our Father and, in order to do so, we must follow our Savior’s example.
Elder Jeffrey R. Holland shared a post on Facebook where he described an experience from when he was recently married and struggling. In the post, he explained that he looked at his wife and said, “Honey, should we give up? I can get a good job and carve out a good living for us. I can do some things. I’ll be okay without a degree. Should we stop trying to tackle what right now seems so difficult to face?” and, in his talk “Like a Broken Vessel,” Elder Holland also admitted to having clinical depression. An apostle of the Lord and his wife once experienced things similar to what Jerome and I (and probably many of you) are going through right now. Do you think he would be who he is today if he didn’t choose the harder path, fully aware that there was an easier, more idle one?
Often times the pain and suffering we go through on earth are what builds our faith in our Savior and our Father, and sometimes the pain and suffering are placed because of our obedience, not just because of our disobedience. Jerome and I knew that leaving our homes and families would be hard, that we would struggle financially for years if we married young, and that having children would be difficult enough even if we finished school and were financially stable, but Heavenly Father allows us to prove to ourselves that we have a deep, but ever growing, testimony in the gospel and faith in our Savior when we choose the harder path.
The harder path isn’t always the most desirable one, but it will help you familiarize yourself with your Heavenly Father. It is often the path that will make you struggle at the beginning, but rejoice at the end. It is the path that the adversary doesn’t want you take, but will lead you to exaltation.
Our Savior’s life was difficult so, if we are supposed to do all we can to be like Him, why wouldn’t ours be, too?
“Once you make a decision concerning whom you would desire to marry, may you have the courage to move forward” (President Thomas S. Monson, “Whom Shall I Marry?”).
This quote helped me decide to pick marriage over a mission, and it also helped me realize that no one should delay marraige if they’ve received revelation that Heavenly Father approves of their partnership, even if they have financial fears or if others disagree.
https://jilliankyraandjerome.com/
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Darren
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 2720
- Location: Leading the lost tribes of Israel to Zion
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Re: Sisters serving missions & forgoing marriage?
Mission or Marriage?
Posted on August 11, 2016
Before starting my mission application the second time, before submitting my papers, and before Jerome and I started dating, I told my bishop that, if I got the opportunity to be sealed in the temple before entering the Missionary Training Center (MTC), I’d take it. I thought that, since I made up my mind while I was still unbiased, it would be easier for me to choose marriage if I had to, but it wasn’t. Giving up the opportunity to serve as a missionary for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was one of the hardest things I had to do and how I came to my decision is a complicated question to answer, but the following quotes are what really pushed me towards marriage.
“Young women are invited to participate in missionary work as it is appropriate to their circumstances. If they have prospects for marriage, that is a higher calling” (Elder M. Russell Ballard, “How to Prepare to Be a Good Missionary”).
While I was at mission preparation class one day, the teacher mentioned that he had a bunch of talks on preparing to serve a mission and, after class, I approached him and asked for one. From all the different talks he had on his desk, he gave me “How to Prepare to Be a Good Missionary” by Elder M. Russell Ballard. Elder Ballard tackles a lot of important topics about preparing to serve a mission in his talk, but the part that stood out to me the most was when he said that, for sisters, marriage is a higher calling.
The quote in itself blatantly answered my question, but the fact that Elder Ballard thought it was important to include it in a talk about preparing to serve a mission just showed me that marriage is indeed just as, if not more, important than serving a mission. Everything about this quote – how I came across it, what it says, and where it came from – was proof to me that I should get married but it still wasn’t good enough for my stubborn butt, so Heavenly Father had to be patient with me and find other ways to convey the message I was asking for but ignoring at the same time.
“Once you make a decision concerning whom you would desire to marry, may you have the courage to move forward” (President Thomas S. Monson, “Whom Shall I Marry?”).
There were a handful of months where I was convinced I was ineligible to serve a mission due to health reasons and I thought my only option was to get married so, in preparation, I read Church talks about marriage every day. All of them shed great insight but there were only a handful that resonated with me and, months after reading it for the first time, President Thomas S. Monson’s words rung in my ears. In the talk, “Whom Shall I Marry?” President Monson talks about having courage to move forward to overcome shyness and pop the question, but having courage to move forward could also mean having courage to follow a loving Father’s plan instead of your own and understanding this is what made me decide to truly consider Jerome’s proposal.
When I had my MTC report date postponed from February to July and moved from Las Vegas to Salt Lake City to wait for Jerome, I subconsciously knew I wasn’t going to serve a mission anymore but I was also in denial because I couldn’t just let go of my desire. And, if I’m going to be completely honest, there are still some times where I forget that I’m married and I find myself thinking that there’s still a chance for me to serve a mission, but I am and there isn’t; and that’s okay! I may not be able to teach the investigators I would’ve met on my mission, but “the most important of the Lord’s work you will ever do will be within the walls of your own homes” (The Teachings of Harold B. Lee, 280) and I’ll be a missionary to my children; and I may not be able to learn from the companions I would’ve had, but I have an eternal companion who teaches me so much every day.
Choosing between a mission and marriage was such a difficult thing for me to do, but I’m glad I chose to be sealed for time and all eternity. Yes, giving up something I worked on for so long was a huge sacrifice, but a sacrifice is giving up something good for something better and being married to Jerome is easily the best thing that’s ever happened to me!
https://jilliankyraandjerome.com/2016/0 ... -marriage/
Posted on August 11, 2016
Before starting my mission application the second time, before submitting my papers, and before Jerome and I started dating, I told my bishop that, if I got the opportunity to be sealed in the temple before entering the Missionary Training Center (MTC), I’d take it. I thought that, since I made up my mind while I was still unbiased, it would be easier for me to choose marriage if I had to, but it wasn’t. Giving up the opportunity to serve as a missionary for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was one of the hardest things I had to do and how I came to my decision is a complicated question to answer, but the following quotes are what really pushed me towards marriage.
“Young women are invited to participate in missionary work as it is appropriate to their circumstances. If they have prospects for marriage, that is a higher calling” (Elder M. Russell Ballard, “How to Prepare to Be a Good Missionary”).
While I was at mission preparation class one day, the teacher mentioned that he had a bunch of talks on preparing to serve a mission and, after class, I approached him and asked for one. From all the different talks he had on his desk, he gave me “How to Prepare to Be a Good Missionary” by Elder M. Russell Ballard. Elder Ballard tackles a lot of important topics about preparing to serve a mission in his talk, but the part that stood out to me the most was when he said that, for sisters, marriage is a higher calling.
The quote in itself blatantly answered my question, but the fact that Elder Ballard thought it was important to include it in a talk about preparing to serve a mission just showed me that marriage is indeed just as, if not more, important than serving a mission. Everything about this quote – how I came across it, what it says, and where it came from – was proof to me that I should get married but it still wasn’t good enough for my stubborn butt, so Heavenly Father had to be patient with me and find other ways to convey the message I was asking for but ignoring at the same time.
“Once you make a decision concerning whom you would desire to marry, may you have the courage to move forward” (President Thomas S. Monson, “Whom Shall I Marry?”).
There were a handful of months where I was convinced I was ineligible to serve a mission due to health reasons and I thought my only option was to get married so, in preparation, I read Church talks about marriage every day. All of them shed great insight but there were only a handful that resonated with me and, months after reading it for the first time, President Thomas S. Monson’s words rung in my ears. In the talk, “Whom Shall I Marry?” President Monson talks about having courage to move forward to overcome shyness and pop the question, but having courage to move forward could also mean having courage to follow a loving Father’s plan instead of your own and understanding this is what made me decide to truly consider Jerome’s proposal.
When I had my MTC report date postponed from February to July and moved from Las Vegas to Salt Lake City to wait for Jerome, I subconsciously knew I wasn’t going to serve a mission anymore but I was also in denial because I couldn’t just let go of my desire. And, if I’m going to be completely honest, there are still some times where I forget that I’m married and I find myself thinking that there’s still a chance for me to serve a mission, but I am and there isn’t; and that’s okay! I may not be able to teach the investigators I would’ve met on my mission, but “the most important of the Lord’s work you will ever do will be within the walls of your own homes” (The Teachings of Harold B. Lee, 280) and I’ll be a missionary to my children; and I may not be able to learn from the companions I would’ve had, but I have an eternal companion who teaches me so much every day.
Choosing between a mission and marriage was such a difficult thing for me to do, but I’m glad I chose to be sealed for time and all eternity. Yes, giving up something I worked on for so long was a huge sacrifice, but a sacrifice is giving up something good for something better and being married to Jerome is easily the best thing that’s ever happened to me!
https://jilliankyraandjerome.com/2016/0 ... -marriage/
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Darren
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 2720
- Location: Leading the lost tribes of Israel to Zion
- Contact:
Re: Sisters serving missions & forgoing marriage?
Why Every Young Woman Should Prepare to Serve An LDS Mission
September 29, 2016
Four years ago in General Conference it was announced that 19 year old young women and 18 year old young men could serve full-time missions. Stories soon surfaced of young women who immediately rushed out and interviewed with their Bishop & Stake President just hours after Conference and of mission papers that were submitted within days of the announcement. Unprecedented numbers of Sisters flooded into Missions around the world. The response was so immediate and dramatic that it actually overwhelmed the systems that were in place to handle the Missionary process. Suddenly, instead of having an Apostle make weekly missionary location assignments, they began meeting 3 times a week to accommodate both the new young men and women who wanted to serve. The Provo MTC was so full that the amount of time spent in training was reduced in part to accommodate the vast number of incoming volunteers. Mission Presidents suddenly had to open new areas for Sisters and ‘Triples’ (3 companions serving together) became more common than just the normal ‘pair’. My daughter was serving a Spanish-speaking mission in Sacramento, California when the announcement came and she spent her last full year training 19 year old Sisters who suddenly poured into her small part of the world. Our local Boston Mission also received an influx of Sister Missionaries and it was nice to see so many female faces in many new areas. As a Sister Training Leader however, my daughter saw many Young Women leave almost as fast as they had entered the Mission field. Our local Mission President also saw a large number of the Sisters return home early for various reasons.
So why were some Sisters unable to complete their Missionary Service? My guess is that as much as they desired to serve, perhaps some hadn’t had the time to adequately prepare for the experience. Through no fault of their own, they weren’t fully aware of and ready for how consistently long and difficult a mission really is. Maybe the spirit was eager, but the mental, emotional and physical preparation hadn’t been tended to.
I firmly believe that we ‘get credit’ for our righteous desires and the good intentions of our heart. And I don’t believe that there is any shame in trying something and then having a legitimate reason for going in a different direction. I know that the Lord blesses us for our efforts as well as our outcomes and I commend all of the young women pioneers who jumped in and have served or have served some part of a full-time Mission.
As an analogy to a Missionary who enters the Mission field only to find that they aren’t prepared for the reality of the experience, I offer the following: Several years ago I landed in Utah from Boston and joined a group of friends to ascend 12,000 ft. by climbing one of the local mountains. I was excited to participate and my intentions were good. I wanted to honor a close friends very meaningful memorial and show my love and support via my participation in this important event.
But I was ill-prepared for such a rigorous adventure. I had come from sea-level without time to acclimate to the high altitude. I wasn’t physically fit. I hadn’t been regularly exercising to prepare for a 20 mile, 12 hour climb. And I was too heavy to attempt such a strenuous hike. But I was determined, so up the mountain I went. It was hard. I was uncomfortable. And looking back it was unfair to the group I was with. Almost everyone was fit and healthy. They had paid the price of regular exercise and prepared for this monumental hike. The group had adjusted to the high altitude, so they weren’t huffing and puffing with each step up the mountain. Although everyone was supportive and helpful to me I knew that I was a burden to the group because I wasn’t adequately prepared. I held everyone back. Various hikers worried about me because I was so clearly struggling with every step. When we finished I was literally broken. My feet were swollen and every muscle in my body was tender and screaming with soreness. I couldn’t do anything the next day but lay myself on the couch and let my body (and my ego) heal. It was humiliating. And although I had participated in the hike, deep down I knew that I had been more of a burden than an asset because I was not prepared.
Two years later I returned for the same hike. But this time I had spent 12 months regularly walking and hiking long distances and running up long flights of stairs to simulate the high-altitude assent. I had reduced my weight. I had stretched my muscles and my mind. I had acquired physical and mental discipline that would be needed for this physically taxing day. And not only did I make it to the top (in the middle of the pack—not straggling in the rear), I enjoyed every step. I didn’t have to be so focused on ‘making it’ but I could enjoy the journey, the scenery and the friends around me.
The comparison is an easy one. Missions are long, difficult events that require mental, emotional, physical and spiritual preparation.
Not every young woman will serve a full-time LDS Mission. Some will find that this isn’t the direction the Lord has in mind for them. Others will simply decide that they want to do something else with their time and energy (and that’s okay). But I can see no negative result in spending teenage years preparing for full-time services and being ready if and when the opportunity presents itself.
So my suggestion is not that every female SHOULD serve an LDS Mission, but that EVERY Young Woman should PREPARE to serve. And by that I don’t mean ‘read your scriptures, pray and practice talking about the gospel’ (which we all should be doing regardless of our life plans). I mean really prepare mentally, emotionally and spiritually to serve an actual full-time mission with all the discipline and earnestness that hopefully every young man is applying to their lives. Calibrate your mind and your habits to the idea that you will serve a full-time mission.
After all, the discipline, the study, the spiritual, physical, mental and emotional rigor involved in preparing for the long-haul marathon of missionary service can be nothing but good for anyone and everyone. If a Young Women decides that she doesn’t want to serve, then that’s fine, but she’ll be all the better for the preparatory steps.
Have you ever felt unprepared for something important? What did you learn from the experience and how has disciplined preparation helped you with meaningful events in your life? What are the right steps for preparing to serve a full-time mission?
http://www.rubygirl.org/why-every-young ... s-mission/
September 29, 2016
Four years ago in General Conference it was announced that 19 year old young women and 18 year old young men could serve full-time missions. Stories soon surfaced of young women who immediately rushed out and interviewed with their Bishop & Stake President just hours after Conference and of mission papers that were submitted within days of the announcement. Unprecedented numbers of Sisters flooded into Missions around the world. The response was so immediate and dramatic that it actually overwhelmed the systems that were in place to handle the Missionary process. Suddenly, instead of having an Apostle make weekly missionary location assignments, they began meeting 3 times a week to accommodate both the new young men and women who wanted to serve. The Provo MTC was so full that the amount of time spent in training was reduced in part to accommodate the vast number of incoming volunteers. Mission Presidents suddenly had to open new areas for Sisters and ‘Triples’ (3 companions serving together) became more common than just the normal ‘pair’. My daughter was serving a Spanish-speaking mission in Sacramento, California when the announcement came and she spent her last full year training 19 year old Sisters who suddenly poured into her small part of the world. Our local Boston Mission also received an influx of Sister Missionaries and it was nice to see so many female faces in many new areas. As a Sister Training Leader however, my daughter saw many Young Women leave almost as fast as they had entered the Mission field. Our local Mission President also saw a large number of the Sisters return home early for various reasons.
So why were some Sisters unable to complete their Missionary Service? My guess is that as much as they desired to serve, perhaps some hadn’t had the time to adequately prepare for the experience. Through no fault of their own, they weren’t fully aware of and ready for how consistently long and difficult a mission really is. Maybe the spirit was eager, but the mental, emotional and physical preparation hadn’t been tended to.
I firmly believe that we ‘get credit’ for our righteous desires and the good intentions of our heart. And I don’t believe that there is any shame in trying something and then having a legitimate reason for going in a different direction. I know that the Lord blesses us for our efforts as well as our outcomes and I commend all of the young women pioneers who jumped in and have served or have served some part of a full-time Mission.
As an analogy to a Missionary who enters the Mission field only to find that they aren’t prepared for the reality of the experience, I offer the following: Several years ago I landed in Utah from Boston and joined a group of friends to ascend 12,000 ft. by climbing one of the local mountains. I was excited to participate and my intentions were good. I wanted to honor a close friends very meaningful memorial and show my love and support via my participation in this important event.
But I was ill-prepared for such a rigorous adventure. I had come from sea-level without time to acclimate to the high altitude. I wasn’t physically fit. I hadn’t been regularly exercising to prepare for a 20 mile, 12 hour climb. And I was too heavy to attempt such a strenuous hike. But I was determined, so up the mountain I went. It was hard. I was uncomfortable. And looking back it was unfair to the group I was with. Almost everyone was fit and healthy. They had paid the price of regular exercise and prepared for this monumental hike. The group had adjusted to the high altitude, so they weren’t huffing and puffing with each step up the mountain. Although everyone was supportive and helpful to me I knew that I was a burden to the group because I wasn’t adequately prepared. I held everyone back. Various hikers worried about me because I was so clearly struggling with every step. When we finished I was literally broken. My feet were swollen and every muscle in my body was tender and screaming with soreness. I couldn’t do anything the next day but lay myself on the couch and let my body (and my ego) heal. It was humiliating. And although I had participated in the hike, deep down I knew that I had been more of a burden than an asset because I was not prepared.
Two years later I returned for the same hike. But this time I had spent 12 months regularly walking and hiking long distances and running up long flights of stairs to simulate the high-altitude assent. I had reduced my weight. I had stretched my muscles and my mind. I had acquired physical and mental discipline that would be needed for this physically taxing day. And not only did I make it to the top (in the middle of the pack—not straggling in the rear), I enjoyed every step. I didn’t have to be so focused on ‘making it’ but I could enjoy the journey, the scenery and the friends around me.
The comparison is an easy one. Missions are long, difficult events that require mental, emotional, physical and spiritual preparation.
Not every young woman will serve a full-time LDS Mission. Some will find that this isn’t the direction the Lord has in mind for them. Others will simply decide that they want to do something else with their time and energy (and that’s okay). But I can see no negative result in spending teenage years preparing for full-time services and being ready if and when the opportunity presents itself.
So my suggestion is not that every female SHOULD serve an LDS Mission, but that EVERY Young Woman should PREPARE to serve. And by that I don’t mean ‘read your scriptures, pray and practice talking about the gospel’ (which we all should be doing regardless of our life plans). I mean really prepare mentally, emotionally and spiritually to serve an actual full-time mission with all the discipline and earnestness that hopefully every young man is applying to their lives. Calibrate your mind and your habits to the idea that you will serve a full-time mission.
After all, the discipline, the study, the spiritual, physical, mental and emotional rigor involved in preparing for the long-haul marathon of missionary service can be nothing but good for anyone and everyone. If a Young Women decides that she doesn’t want to serve, then that’s fine, but she’ll be all the better for the preparatory steps.
Have you ever felt unprepared for something important? What did you learn from the experience and how has disciplined preparation helped you with meaningful events in your life? What are the right steps for preparing to serve a full-time mission?
http://www.rubygirl.org/why-every-young ... s-mission/
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Dlight
- captain of 100
- Posts: 143
Re: Sisters serving missions & forgoing marriage?
I didn't read all 40 pages so maybe this has been said, but it seems to me the young woman were already delaying marriage and many were putting off marriage in order to serve missions. I think the church was aware of this fact and decided to take away any hinderence it was causing by dropping the age to 19. They actually discussed this issue on one of those leaked videos.
I know when I met my wife she was younger and planned on a mission and we had a lot of long talks about that because I would have had to wait 3 year's to marry her if she had chosen that based on the old age requirements.
I know when I met my wife she was younger and planned on a mission and we had a lot of long talks about that because I would have had to wait 3 year's to marry her if she had chosen that based on the old age requirements.
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Darren
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 2720
- Location: Leading the lost tribes of Israel to Zion
- Contact:
Re: Sisters serving missions & forgoing marriage?
General Authority Briefing: Addressing the Problem of Mormons Marrying Later in Life
Fact:
56.9% of adult women are living without a spouse.
Mormon Church Implications, Dilemmas:
Young Women who want to serve missions or finish college without debt but not miss marriage opportunities, wanting to see the future before making faithful choices.
Summary: Mormon leaders are reassured that marriage — despite earlier media reports — remains a desire of the vast majority of adults, but are warned that Latter-day Saints, like the general populace, are delaying nuptials and having fewer children.
Suggestion:
Please continue to teach key messages. Help young LDS adults maintain the faith and hope they need as they seek and commit to marriage today.
Marriage Myths and Facts
Fact:
56.9% of adult women are living without a spouse.
Mormon Church Implications, Dilemmas:
Young Women who want to serve missions or finish college without debt but not miss marriage opportunities, wanting to see the future before making faithful choices.
Summary: Mormon leaders are reassured that marriage — despite earlier media reports — remains a desire of the vast majority of adults, but are warned that Latter-day Saints, like the general populace, are delaying nuptials and having fewer children.
Suggestion:
Please continue to teach key messages. Help young LDS adults maintain the faith and hope they need as they seek and commit to marriage today.
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Sirocco
- Praise Me!
- Posts: 3808
Re: Sisters serving missions & forgoing marriage?
Men can live alright without women, women it seems don't do as well without men.
I know a few women who are single and desperate.
Doesn't the numbers in the LDS church also have a factor in that too?
I know a few women who are single and desperate.
Doesn't the numbers in the LDS church also have a factor in that too?
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Sunain
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 2720
- Location: Canada
Re: Sisters serving missions & forgoing marriage?
According to the video, 56.9% over 18 are married as of 2007 which would translate into 43.1% living without a spouse.Darren wrote:General Authority Briefing: Addressing the Problem of Mormons Marrying Later in Life
Marriage Myths and Facts
Fact:
56.9% of adult women are living without a spouse.
Summary: Mormon leaders are reassured that marriage — despite earlier media reports — remains a desire of the vast majority of adults, but are warned that Latter-day Saints, like the general populace, are delaying nuptials and having fewer children.
Perhaps the General Authorities could start actually helping the YSA/SA instead of constantly belittling them, and they are belittling. Every talk to the YSA/SA these days is "Get married now and have kids!". It's extremely tiresome to hear that constantly. Society in general is having less kids because they can't afford to have more, not because they don't want to have a big family, it's because they realize they couldn't be self-sufficient with a large family anymore. Incomes are stagnant or going down while the cost of living escalates at an enormous pace.
Many employers outside of Utah are now not hiring young people that graduate from BYU because they are seen as bigots.
For heaven's sake, being mature and following prophets advice over the last 30 years to stay out of debt is now a dilemma?! Schooling costs are escalating as well, so it takes longer than it used to to pay for schooling. Most families now need dual incomes to support themselves, so the young women are expected to help out with money now with new and young families. It is NOT a dilemma to want to be financially responsible and secure before starting a family. We have to live in the times when we are born. Each generation has a different issue they have to overcome but the General Authorities continue to compare their growing up with the that of the current generations. They don't match anymore and this is where the conflict is arising.Darren wrote:Young Women who want to serve missions or finish college without debt but not miss marriage opportunities, wanting to see the future before making faithful choices.
Ask anyone active single member of the church and most of them are going to say it is a top goal in their life to get married and they are already committed to get married, just in their timelines not the churches. Another video that was leaked also showed 72% of young adults are inactive by age 20 as of 2007 (almost 10 years ago). I would actually like to say that number is closer to 80-90% here in Canada now. Finding a compatible mate in the gospel is harder now than ever before.Darren wrote:Suggestion:
Please continue to teach key messages. Help young LDS adults maintain the faith and hope they need as they seek and commit to marriage today.
I think the church forgets there are a lot of members outside of the church strongholds of Utah, Idaho, Arizona, Urban Brazil. For the rest of us, geographic challenges play a large part as well when getting together with other single members of the church. Compound financial issues and the costs of travel and we get a more accurate picture of what is actually happening to the church and the reason for these statistics that members aren't getting married.
Since I don't like ranting about a topic without providing solutions to the said problem...
My Suggestions Things the church should do for YSA/SA (especially outside church strongholds):
- The unmarried programs of the church have basically been unchanged for decades. They have not adapted to the times. This isn't one of this things in the church that should be "unchanging". The world has changed and so should the programs of the church to better serve the members.
- Stop with the pestering that members have to get married young. It's leading to unhappy marriages, forced marriages to reduce social pressures generated by members of the church and divorces. This is alienating the youth and is a big reason why we see extremely high inactive statistics in single adults. It is a form of peer pressure. The whole argument that we need to get married young to be fertile is a pointless argument these days. We see tons of people having kids now in their 60's and scientific advancements have made it possible for people to have kids a lot older now. Perhaps the Lord did see our days and knew people would be older when they got married, hence these advancements in science?! Abraham was 90. The leaked video stated that in 2007/8, the average age of married members in the temple was 24 for males, 23 for females and they are concerned that that is too high?! That's almost too young to get married these days especially in North America. Faith can only lead you so far until it tips over and reaches stupidity. "be ye therefore wise as serpents". The other argument is that the youth are susceptible to porn and will sin. Is the church so untrusting of single adults that they will pressure them into marriage because of this? Is faith that the members can find an eternal companion in their own time being superseeded by membership statistics that creates church policy based on outdated ideals for marriage in our current generations?
- Get rid of the term YSA. It's demeaning, prejudiced and literally means unmarried members are second-class members of the church. A 30 year old is still a Young Single Adult but someone that got married at 20 isn't young anymore because their married?!
- Remove age based restrictions on members. A 30 year old never married member can't serve in temple as a worker?! Where is the doctrinal basis for this?! Ageism.
- Stop over-emphasizing that its a priesthood responsibility to get married. Women have just as much responsibility to get married also, in fact an equal responsibility. The rumours that there are a ton of unmarried women in Utah are counterproductive and show a clear misunderstanding of the actual active single member ratios worldwide. Not everyone wants to live in Utah.
- The leaked video brought up that single women are more educated than single men in the church. There are big issues in that regard. The church teaches that the man should be the one at work and the woman is the one to stay home. For so long, the church has taught that the women's place is in the home to raise a family and the father is to provide for his family. Obviously that's not the case, the nuclear family no longer works the same as it once did due to financial issues that society has created. Perhaps emphasis this fact in lessons, manuals and General Conference more so than in the past, that parents might both have to work or a mother might make more money than the father. A women's place isn't always in the home nor is it to always be a homemaker. This leads to another problem in the church though, tithing. It's not very anonymous and if bishoprics, ect find out that the male is making less than his wife, that also creates conflict. Make tithing payable online worldwide but financial figures anonymous to local leaders. Full tithe paying members should only need to answer the yes or no question for recommends.
- LDS.org Video/Chats - Members would use their membership login to access them like they currently do for indexing or accessing current lds.org services. Monitored and logged easily that way and infractions would be reported to bishop/Stake president. This would let members from around the world get to know each other. There really isn't any good, free, safe place for members to meet online.
- A lot less emphasis on marriage and more emphasis on living hopeful, righteously and Christ-like lives in challenging times. Marriage comes when people are ready for it, not when the church wants it. Getting financially ready for marriage takes a lot longer than it used to, a point the church seemed to acknowledge in the leaked video but disregard as not being a valid reason for members not to get married in the temple at young ages still. Not being financially secure in these latter-days leads to debt.
- Make social activities more accessible worldwide. Many members can't afford or get travel to where many of the activities take place. Perhaps on the tithing slip add a youth fund to help with Scouting activities all the way to SA activities. Most activities are underfunded.
- Dissolve YSA/SA branches/wards outside of church strongholds like Utah, Idaho and Arizona. The family wards are generally better in these cases. YSA/SA wards in general have become very cliquish and having just normal wards reduces this issue. Apparently 85% of YSA are already in family wards, and I can probably say that they are there because there is more support from their family, they have transportation to get to the ward, YSA wards especially internationally are often very far away.
- Less dances. Have the dances quarterly or semi-annually or linked into holidays. Dancing isn't the best way to meet someone or get to know them. More activities that focus on getting to know people and their personalities through games, activities, ect. It's also a lot easier to bring non-members to activities this way.
- The leaked video said that the YSA are the most underutilized member base and have enormous potential. If the Quorum of the 12 is so opposed to having younger people in the General Authority positions these days, perhaps it's time to create new GA positions specifically for younger members of the church so that they can identify, bring other ideas to the table and can relate better. The leaked video specifically pointed this out as an issue that young single adults aren't in positions of responsibility. We have positions like Zone Leader, District Leader, AP in missions and then the missionaries return and aren't given positions of authority when they can definitely serve in those responsibilities. This is a big issue of contention and leads to trust issues.
- The leaked video actually brought up the point that singles are having right now, finding a companion. "It is difficult, as you all know, to find a companion, internationally particularly, about 70 active men per 100 active women across many of these countries." At least this point was brought up for members outside of Utah (internationally is basically outside of Utah). The church needs to have some kind of program to help members relocate to areas of the world to strengthen areas that are weak in this regard. Once again, financial assistance seems to be the major key in a lot of these issues.
[/rant]
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Darren
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 2720
- Location: Leading the lost tribes of Israel to Zion
- Contact:
-
Darren
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 2720
- Location: Leading the lost tribes of Israel to Zion
- Contact:
Re: Sisters serving missions & forgoing marriage?
The Perilous Teachings of LDS Maternity
Connor Richards, October 10, 2016
Few things are emphasized as heavily in contemporary culture as the importance of getting an education. ... That is, unless you are a young woman growing up in the LDS church.
A statement titled “The Family: A Proclamation to the World” highlights the Mormon social stance on topics like marriage, sexuality and gender roles. It codifies the official church position that the place of the woman is in the home. “By divine design, fathers are to preside over their families […] and are responsible to provide the necessities of life and protection for their families,” the statement reads. “Mothers are primarily responsible for the nurture of their children.” In other words, things like careers and bread-winning should be left to the men, while chores and housekeeping should be left to the women. The true 50s American Dream.
Except this statement wasn’t released in the 50s, it was released in 1995. And now, in 2016, church leaders are standing by it. In September, at the most recent General Women’s Conference session, Young Women’s president Bonnie L. Oscarson said Mormons should stand up boldly for teachings about the essential differences between the roles and responsibilities of men and women. “I worry that we live in such an atmosphere of avoiding offense that we sometimes altogether avoid teaching correct principles,” she said. “We fail to teach our young women that preparing to be a mother is of utmost importance because we don’t want to offend those who aren’t married, those who can’t have children or to be seen as stifling future choices.” The importance of education should also be emphasized, she added, but not so heavily that it makes education seem more important than marriage.
The problem with this doctrine, this “eternal teaching,” is not that it prepares women to be nurturing and good mothers. It is that it teaches them that this is all they should set out to do — even if lip service is paid to ideas like the importance of education. While there is nothing wrong with encouraging and wanting women to take the role of motherhood seriously, it is totally wrong to unilaterally decide that this should be the primary responsibility and focus of all women everywhere. What if a woman doesn’t want kids, or to even be married for that matter? Is choosing not to have children something worthy of our ridicule? If we value independence and individual choice, it shouldn’t be. ...
http://dailyutahchronicle.com/2016/10/1 ... maternity/
Trump and the Mormon Purity Doctrine: Two Sides of the Same Coin
Mark Barnes, October 26, 2016
Like most people, I have been shocked and appalled by Donald Trump bragging about sexually assaulting women. The Billy Bush video made me sick to my stomach. As the political polls in Utah swing away from Trump, I have even felt a twinge of pride in this reddest of red states.
But, deep down inside, I am uneasy. I fear that my pride is not deserved. I worry that Utah’s rejection of Trump is based on it own form of misogyny, rather than an enlighten view of female equality. Whether it is the bordello or the pedestal, whether it is Trump or Mormon patriarchy, the bottom line is that women are seen as things, property, mere objects to be acted on by men. Women are not treated as fully human.
Today’s Mormonism puts women on a pedestal. Mormon’s believe in a Mother in Heaven, but she is placed beyond our reach. We are told we should not speak of her. We are told that She is so pure, that She cannot enter our world and interact with us. She is so sacred that we cannot know her in any meaningful way. Unlike male deity, She neither acts nor is acted upon. Unlike our personified Father in Heaven, She is objectified and placed on a heavenly pedestal, forever beyond relationship with us.
Likewise, Mormon culture strips women of their humanity. We promote a purity doctrine that imagines that some state of a female body matters more than the actual human being, who occupies that body. Trump’s crude view of women as objects that exist for his gratification, and modern Mormon purity doctrine both find a woman’s value in her sexuality. But given our history, this should not surprise us.
When I heard Trump’s sick bus ride claims of conquest, my mind quickly went to the acts of another powerful man in the 1840s, who used his celebrity, position and power to abuse women. Joseph Smith used claims of divine command to assemble a personal harem of dozens of women, including girls as young as 14 years old, to satisfy his personal desires. Using his claim that polygamy was the divine order of heaven, Smith set up a destructive legacy that injured millions. By placing maleness at the center of church power, he perpetually sentenced women to be lesser than.
Trump’s crude view of woman and Mormon patriarchy are two sides of the same coin. While Trump’s lewd acts and crude language repel Utah voters, like Trump the Mormon pedestalization of women also values women as sexual objects for the benefit of men. The antidote to this sick state of affairs is equality. It is time for Mormons to discard our doctrine of male supremacy and insist on full female power and equality both in and out of the church.
http://ordainwomen.org/trump-and-the-mo ... same-coin/
Do you find yourself within Traditional Culture?
Should young women be taught a higher principle or be handed a basket of principles from the world?
Luke 1:38
And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.
Darren
Connor Richards, October 10, 2016
Few things are emphasized as heavily in contemporary culture as the importance of getting an education. ... That is, unless you are a young woman growing up in the LDS church.
A statement titled “The Family: A Proclamation to the World” highlights the Mormon social stance on topics like marriage, sexuality and gender roles. It codifies the official church position that the place of the woman is in the home. “By divine design, fathers are to preside over their families […] and are responsible to provide the necessities of life and protection for their families,” the statement reads. “Mothers are primarily responsible for the nurture of their children.” In other words, things like careers and bread-winning should be left to the men, while chores and housekeeping should be left to the women. The true 50s American Dream.
Except this statement wasn’t released in the 50s, it was released in 1995. And now, in 2016, church leaders are standing by it. In September, at the most recent General Women’s Conference session, Young Women’s president Bonnie L. Oscarson said Mormons should stand up boldly for teachings about the essential differences between the roles and responsibilities of men and women. “I worry that we live in such an atmosphere of avoiding offense that we sometimes altogether avoid teaching correct principles,” she said. “We fail to teach our young women that preparing to be a mother is of utmost importance because we don’t want to offend those who aren’t married, those who can’t have children or to be seen as stifling future choices.” The importance of education should also be emphasized, she added, but not so heavily that it makes education seem more important than marriage.
The problem with this doctrine, this “eternal teaching,” is not that it prepares women to be nurturing and good mothers. It is that it teaches them that this is all they should set out to do — even if lip service is paid to ideas like the importance of education. While there is nothing wrong with encouraging and wanting women to take the role of motherhood seriously, it is totally wrong to unilaterally decide that this should be the primary responsibility and focus of all women everywhere. What if a woman doesn’t want kids, or to even be married for that matter? Is choosing not to have children something worthy of our ridicule? If we value independence and individual choice, it shouldn’t be. ...
http://dailyutahchronicle.com/2016/10/1 ... maternity/
Trump and the Mormon Purity Doctrine: Two Sides of the Same Coin
Mark Barnes, October 26, 2016
Like most people, I have been shocked and appalled by Donald Trump bragging about sexually assaulting women. The Billy Bush video made me sick to my stomach. As the political polls in Utah swing away from Trump, I have even felt a twinge of pride in this reddest of red states.
But, deep down inside, I am uneasy. I fear that my pride is not deserved. I worry that Utah’s rejection of Trump is based on it own form of misogyny, rather than an enlighten view of female equality. Whether it is the bordello or the pedestal, whether it is Trump or Mormon patriarchy, the bottom line is that women are seen as things, property, mere objects to be acted on by men. Women are not treated as fully human.
Today’s Mormonism puts women on a pedestal. Mormon’s believe in a Mother in Heaven, but she is placed beyond our reach. We are told we should not speak of her. We are told that She is so pure, that She cannot enter our world and interact with us. She is so sacred that we cannot know her in any meaningful way. Unlike male deity, She neither acts nor is acted upon. Unlike our personified Father in Heaven, She is objectified and placed on a heavenly pedestal, forever beyond relationship with us.
Likewise, Mormon culture strips women of their humanity. We promote a purity doctrine that imagines that some state of a female body matters more than the actual human being, who occupies that body. Trump’s crude view of women as objects that exist for his gratification, and modern Mormon purity doctrine both find a woman’s value in her sexuality. But given our history, this should not surprise us.
When I heard Trump’s sick bus ride claims of conquest, my mind quickly went to the acts of another powerful man in the 1840s, who used his celebrity, position and power to abuse women. Joseph Smith used claims of divine command to assemble a personal harem of dozens of women, including girls as young as 14 years old, to satisfy his personal desires. Using his claim that polygamy was the divine order of heaven, Smith set up a destructive legacy that injured millions. By placing maleness at the center of church power, he perpetually sentenced women to be lesser than.
Trump’s crude view of woman and Mormon patriarchy are two sides of the same coin. While Trump’s lewd acts and crude language repel Utah voters, like Trump the Mormon pedestalization of women also values women as sexual objects for the benefit of men. The antidote to this sick state of affairs is equality. It is time for Mormons to discard our doctrine of male supremacy and insist on full female power and equality both in and out of the church.
http://ordainwomen.org/trump-and-the-mo ... same-coin/
Do you find yourself within Traditional Culture?
Should young women be taught a higher principle or be handed a basket of principles from the world?
Luke 1:38
And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.
God Bless,
Darren
