Location of the Book of Mormon Lands

[Rose Garden]

Pardon me if this topic has been discussed before. I have never seen it on this forum myself as its own thread. I have been wondering about this topic for a while, but now the apologetics thread has prompted me to start this thread. Apparently, we have some very smart people on this subject on this forum.

There are two theories I believe are possible, the United States location, because of its current status as the home of a blessed nation (if only they would stay good so they can keep that status!) and the South America location. The United States location is problematic because of the narrow neck of land, which some explain by pointing to the narrow neck of land between the great lakes. South America has the narrow neck of land, but no status as a blessed nation at this point in time. However, South America has one thing going for it and that's that the ruin of the Jaredites kept the Nephites from inhabiting the "land northward." So this means that the Jaredite land has be North and separate from the Nephite land.

Ed, you mentioned in the other thread that you believe Tehuantepec is the narrow neck of land. This seems terribly implausible to me because of all the land that needed to be possessed South of that narrow neck which just doesn't exist. And even if it did, you would think that the panama canal narrow neck would be mentioned as well since it is fairly close. I'd love to hear why you believe that is the narrow neck. It also calls into question how much space the Nephite and Lamanite nations covered. It seems to me like it would have been pretty large.

There is one thing that I haven't heard mentioned ever in this discussion and that is the change that came upon the land when Christ was killed. If there are verses in the Book of Mormon that describe the Nephite's land well after this great change, I can't find them. Mountains sunk, valleys rose, the entire face of the land was changed. Doesn't it even say somewhere that the earth was divided at this time? I can't remember for sure. But the point is, can we rely on the physical descriptions in the Book of Mormon at all? What if the land changed so much that most of those descriptions are useless?

I haven't studied the topic more than casually. But I am curious about it. I'd love to hear everyone's thoughts on the subject.

[Rose Garden]

Incidentally, I find it interesting that the Mayan, Aztecs, and Inca are all located in the right places to be the Jaredites, Nephites, and Lamanites with:

Mayan = Jaradites
Aztecs = Nephites
Inca = Lamanites

They also have the right time line with the Mayan nation dying out before the Aztecs and Inca became powerful and the Aztecs and Inca living at the same time on the land.

Oh, and if anyone has Joseph Smith quotes to share, I'd love to read those. I've heard he spoke on the subject.

[marc]

Lots to read about: http://www.ldsfreedomforum.com/viewtopi ... =14&t=7830" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[pritchet1]

Mayan = Jaradites
Aztecs = Nephites
Inca = Lamanites

Try Jaredites = Olmecs
Nephites = Mayans
Aztecs, Incas all others = Lamanites

My wife had studied her Indian Indigenous studies throughout Latin America while in various colleges in Latin America before she joined the church. She revealed in a Book of Mormon Sunday class we taught together using National Geographic temple locations in Central America that Nephi and family landed on the south coast of El Salvador (Pacific), built the first temples there and migrated north towards the Atlantic based on age of temple sites in Central America that jive with Book of Mormon dating. She is of Mayan decent and learned the language from the Mayans still thriving in her country. Mayan is also taught at the University of Oregon in Eugene. She also said the Popol Vu is what convinced her the church was true, because it jived with the Book of Mormon (that - and personal experiences with both Jesus Christ and Lucifer). That is also why so many surviving natives (not killed off by governments) in Central America are LDS.

There are underground hidden cities in Central America. You will also see the sunken cities and roads under the Caribbean side of Central America.

El Salvador is so rich in artifacts that the farmers kick them aside so they can grow their crops. They are tired of having to work around the Mayan monuments and digging up literal pots of precious metals (buried treasures) literally everywhere.

[erichard]

...There are two theories I believe are possible, the United States location, because of its current status as the home of a blessed nation (if only they would stay good so they can keep that status!) and the South America location. ...I haven't studied the topic more than casually. But I am curious about it. I'd love to hear everyone's thoughts on the subject.

Hi,

I am very certain that the true descendants of Laman and Lemuel are found today mainly in South America. Most of those with Native American blood in Central and North America are a mixture that sometimes includes Lamanite blood.

I am not so sure where the Book of Mormon account took place. But I tend to believe it took place in South America. I found Venice Priddis' book, "The Book and the Map" very convicing in some ways. I realize it takes faith to believe the Amazon basin was underwater before the time of Christ, but it takes faith to believe the Book of Mormon itself.

George Potter (nephiproject.com) does not accept the Priddis model, but still proposes a South American model. Here is a list of the reasons he gives in a dvd he gives away on the matter:

Peru and the surrounding countries.

1. Gold Plates --Thin metal gold plates have been found. It has been shown that people in the area were working gold as early as 1900 BC. In contrast, the earliest evidence of metal working in Mesoamerica is about 900 AD.

2. BoM people mined gold and silver in abundance, as well as copper and iron. The gold found by the Spanish in this land is legendary, and yet there is evidence that the Incan priests hid much gold from the Spanish. Large collections of highly skilled gold artifacts remain. Also evidence of iron is found. In contrast there is no evidence of any iron workings in Mesoamerica.

3. The Nephites worshipped Jesus Christ. The Quetzalcoatl legends start around 900 AD, long after the time of Christ. In contrast, the premier god of the Andes is Viracocha. He dressed in a white robe and wore sandals. He is always in the form of a normal man, and never with the beast like features associated with Quetzalcoatl.

4. Jesus Christ visited the Americas. The Peruvians have legends of a bearded white god who came among them and taught them and healed the sick. The Icons of Viracocha usually show him with tears.

5. A language with middle eastern roots. Mesoamerica has many Chinese roots:
http://www.chinese.tcu.edu/www_chinese3_tcu_edu.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; However, the native Quechua in Peru has semetic roots by many studies.

6. A vanished written language. The Incans told the Spanish that they had had a written language, but it was lost long before. In contrast, hundreds of written documents have been found in Mesoamerica. Jacob 4:1-2 predicts only things written on plates will survive.

7 Great cities built form 3rd millennium BC. In the andies city ruins from 2700 BC exist. In contrast, cities in Mesoamerica exist from only 1200 BC. The cities of Caral date from 2700 BC and the ruins resemble the ziggurats from Mesopotamia from which the Jaredites came. The Book of Mormon main civilization ended around 400 AD. The Mesoamerican classic period was from 300 AD to 900 AD.

Archeological periods (civilizations) for proposed Book of Mormon lands:

Caral -- Norte Chico 2700-300 BC (Jaredites)
Central Andes -- Early Intermediate 600 BC to AD 200 (Land of Nephi)

Early Tiwanaku IV -- Late Chiripa II Middle formative 600 BC - AD 400 (Lamanite lands)

Northern Titicaca basin Late/Upper Formative 500 BC - AD 400 (Zarahemla)

8. Land of BoM was divided into quarters: Alma 43:26 52:10. The Incas called their land the land of the four quarters, and divided the land into four quarters.

9. The land was covered with borders, meaning Mountains. The word borders means mountains in Hebrew and Arabic. The book of Mormon talks of mountains. This is indicative of the Andes which has many mountains.

10. The Incans were great Highway builders. The BoM speaks of many highways. 3 Nephi 8:13 The Incas and preIncans used cement, as also mentioned in the BoM.

11. The Nephites were Hebrews The only place the Hebrew DNA has been found in the Americas so far is in South America.

12. BoM people divided into two groups: fair skinned and dark skinned. Artifacts and legends in Peru tell of two earlier people: one fair skinned and one dark skinned. The legends say the dark skinned killed of the fair skinned people. Artifacts show light skinned people well dressed fighting

13. The Nephites were skilled ship builders. The reed boats in Titicaca match the reed boats in Mesopotamia. The Incans had large ships when the Spanish came.

14 The people of the BoM had horses. But it never mentions anyone riding horses. Possibly Nephi saw Llamas and called them horses.

15 The BoM had many types of grain. There are many types of grains grown in the Andes.

16 The BoM people were shepherds. The BoM mentions sheep and shepherding many times. This fact alone removes North and Mesoamerica as a candidate for the BoM history. The only domesticated animals the mayans had were turkeys and dogs. In the andes Alpacas are hered like sheep and the Spanish described them as sheep. The Nephites could have also called them sheep. Vicunas could be what are called wild goats in the BoM.

17 Elephants, pigs and cattle are mentioned in the BoM. These terms must have applied to Andes versions of these animals.

18 The Nephites had solar and lunar calendars. The ancient Peruvians also had solar and lunar calendars.

19 The Incans had large graineries. The BoM speaks of vast storages of grain.

20 Costly apparel. Silk spoken of in the Book of Mormon. The Peruvians were the master weavers of the ancient Americas. Silk could be any finely woven cloth.

[pritchet1]

All of the American continents (North, Central and South) are the "Choice Land" spoke of by Ether. My wife loves to point out that we are ALL Americans, not just those who live in the USSA.

Here is some info regarding the Popol Vuh - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMMo0-kEFis" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
In Español Parte uno
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBfNLU68Pw0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Parte dos
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BP4WiTcNflA" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Rose Garden]

Pritchet, that information is pretty interesting, especially the part about the temples. Wish I had the problem of having to kick aside treasures to plant my crops!

Thanks for the link, coach. I figured there was already a thread somewhere, but I hadn't seen it. Lots of interesting stuff there.

[marc]

You're welcome. I think we're all going to be surprised just how much we are all right--to a certain degree. Both North and South America fit OT prophecies of Jacob being a fruitful bough running over a wall. Another prophecy regards endless hills, and so on....

The Jaredites started out north and migrated south before being cut off by serpents. Thereafter the main tribe warred for generations until the last survived, being taken in by the people of Zarahemla. I have no doubt that Lehi's family integrated with existing cultures and so on. Brigham Young prophecied of Gadiantons being spread throughout the Rockies when he spoke on occasions. I could go on.

[pritchet1]

Well, we know the Gadiantons never left! ;^)

[livy111us]

...There are two theories I believe are possible, the United States location, because of its current status as the home of a blessed nation (if only they would stay good so they can keep that status!) and the South America location. ...I haven't studied the topic more than casually. But I am curious about it. I'd love to hear everyone's thoughts on the subject.

Hi,

I am very certain that the true descendants of Laman and Lemuel are found today mainly in South America. Most of those with Native American blood in Central and North America are a mixture that sometimes includes Lamanite blood.

I am not so sure where the Book of Mormon account took place. But I tend to believe it took place in South America. I found Venice Priddis' book, "The Book and the Map" very convicing in some ways. I realize it takes faith to believe the Amazon basin was underwater before the time of Christ, but it takes faith to believe the Book of Mormon itself.

George Potter (nephiproject.com) does not accept the Priddis model, but still proposes a South American model. Here is a list of the reasons he gives in a dvd he gives away on the matter:

Peru and the surrounding countries.

1. Gold Plates --Thin metal gold plates have been found. It has been shown that people in the area were working gold as early as 1900 BC. In contrast, the earliest evidence of metal working in Mesoamerica is about 900 AD.

2. BoM people mined gold and silver in abundance, as well as copper and iron. The gold found by the Spanish in this land is legendary, and yet there is evidence that the Incan priests hid much gold from the Spanish. Large collections of highly skilled gold artifacts remain. Also evidence of iron is found. In contrast there is no evidence of any iron workings in Mesoamerica.

3. The Nephites worshipped Jesus Christ. The Quetzalcoatl legends start around 900 AD, long after the time of Christ. In contrast, the premier god of the Andes is Viracocha. He dressed in a white robe and wore sandals. He is always in the form of a normal man, and never with the beast like features associated with Quetzalcoatl.

4. Jesus Christ visited the Americas. The Peruvians have legends of a bearded white god who came among them and taught them and healed the sick. The Icons of Viracocha usually show him with tears.

5. A language with middle eastern roots. Mesoamerica has many Chinese roots:
http://www.chinese.tcu.edu/www_chinese3_tcu_edu.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; However, the native Quechua in Peru has semetic roots by many studies.

6. A vanished written language. The Incans told the Spanish that they had had a written language, but it was lost long before. In contrast, hundreds of written documents have been found in Mesoamerica. Jacob 4:1-2 predicts only things written on plates will survive.

7 Great cities built form 3rd millennium BC. In the andies city ruins from 2700 BC exist. In contrast, cities in Mesoamerica exist from only 1200 BC. The cities of Caral date from 2700 BC and the ruins resemble the ziggurats from Mesopotamia from which the Jaredites came. The Book of Mormon main civilization ended around 400 AD. The Mesoamerican classic period was from 300 AD to 900 AD.

Archeological periods (civilizations) for proposed Book of Mormon lands:

Caral -- Norte Chico 2700-300 BC (Jaredites)
Central Andes -- Early Intermediate 600 BC to AD 200 (Land of Nephi)

Early Tiwanaku IV -- Late Chiripa II Middle formative 600 BC - AD 400 (Lamanite lands)

Northern Titicaca basin Late/Upper Formative 500 BC - AD 400 (Zarahemla)

8. Land of BoM was divided into quarters: Alma 43:26 52:10. The Incas called their land the land of the four quarters, and divided the land into four quarters.

9. The land was covered with borders, meaning Mountains. The word borders means mountains in Hebrew and Arabic. The book of Mormon talks of mountains. This is indicative of the Andes which has many mountains.

10. The Incans were great Highway builders. The BoM speaks of many highways. 3 Nephi 8:13 The Incas and preIncans used cement, as also mentioned in the BoM.

11. The Nephites were Hebrews The only place the Hebrew DNA has been found in the Americas so far is in South America.

12. BoM people divided into two groups: fair skinned and dark skinned. Artifacts and legends in Peru tell of two earlier people: one fair skinned and one dark skinned. The legends say the dark skinned killed of the fair skinned people. Artifacts show light skinned people well dressed fighting

13. The Nephites were skilled ship builders. The reed boats in Titicaca match the reed boats in Mesopotamia. The Incans had large ships when the Spanish came.

14 The people of the BoM had horses. But it never mentions anyone riding horses. Possibly Nephi saw Llamas and called them horses.

15 The BoM had many types of grain. There are many types of grains grown in the Andes.

16 The BoM people were shepherds. The BoM mentions sheep and shepherding many times. This fact alone removes North and Mesoamerica as a candidate for the BoM history. The only domesticated animals the mayans had were turkeys and dogs. In the andes Alpacas are hered like sheep and the Spanish described them as sheep. The Nephites could have also called them sheep. Vicunas could be what are called wild goats in the BoM.

17 Elephants, pigs and cattle are mentioned in the BoM. These terms must have applied to Andes versions of these animals.

18 The Nephites had solar and lunar calendars. The ancient Peruvians also had solar and lunar calendars.

19 The Incans had large graineries. The BoM speaks of vast storages of grain.

20 Costly apparel. Silk spoken of in the Book of Mormon. The Peruvians were the master weavers of the ancient Americas. Silk could be any finely woven cloth.

I am a fan of George Potter, but his stuff on BOM geography can use some work. The list he uses to support a South American setting, all the while discounting a Mesoamerican setting is grossly inaccurate. Many of the parallels he draws are so vague that they can be drawn with cultures on the other side of the world. "The Nephites drank water and the people of the Andes drank water, therefore, they are one and the same."
He also doesn't understand Mesoamerican archaeology because he gets numerous points wrong. He studied it just enough to get the information he wanted then stopped. He has a very limited understanding of the cultures there and doesn't do a very good job at presenting an honest case.
One thing that really bothered me about this list is the double standard. He would let one principle slide if it was in his geography, but condemned the Mesoamerican setting for the exact same principle. For example, he has stated in the past that The BOM could not have taken place in Mesoamerica because silk, goats, metal-working, etc... did not exist there. But he fails to mention that those exact same things are NOT found in South America as well. Not the most honest thing, is it?
Here is a response to one of Potters lists that he has made that discusses a few of the problems with them. It is quite good and raises an eyebrow.

Response to George Potter's "Ten Reasons why Mesoamerica is Not Book of Mormon Lands"

http://www.bmaf.org/node/487" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[pritchet1]

Well, I believe it rang true when my wife said she (as a Mayan descendant) believed that Father Lehi and family landed on the southern shores (Pacific side) of El Salvador and the temples that dot the land with the oldest nearest that shore and the youngest going up north to Belize (Caribbean side) provides the backdrop and age that coincides with the times and seasons as described in the Book of Mormon. It still rings true to me.

The Mayans had the calendar, the writings and the temples. Too bad the Conquistadores had to mess things up and destroy as much as they could to eradicate their civilization. A remnant still exists - in spite of all the Conquistadores and their culture and traditions could do to erase them from the earth.

Oh, and my wife really, really gets upset with the misrepresentations of her people on the History and National Geographic channels. The Mayans were not Aztecs.

[haddomr]

I think Rod Meldrum is right and the place was by the Great Lakes in the USA. The DNA matches, they found city ruins with walls on top of earthen works in the eastern US near the Great Lakes, like the BOM describes. JS talked about Zelph the white Lamanite on Zion's march, the 4 seasons of the BOM are in North America and South America has only two seasons. The distance between two of the Great Lakes, the narrow neck of land is a day and a half apart. The oceans in the BOM are described as the great deep and seas (Great Lakes) are like the size of the Red sea and the dead sea. I think it all adds up. Just my opinion. Of course there was 1000 years from when the BOM ended and when Columbus discoverd America, lots can happen in 1000 years.

[livy111us]

There is one thing that I haven't heard mentioned ever in this discussion and that is the change that came upon the land when Christ was killed. If there are verses in the Book of Mormon that describe the Nephite's land well after this great change, I can't find them. Mountains sunk, valleys rose, the entire face of the land was changed. Doesn't it even say somewhere that the earth was divided at this time? I can't remember for sure. But the point is, can we rely on the physical descriptions in the Book of Mormon at all? What if the land changed so much that most of those descriptions are useless?

I haven't studied the topic more than casually. But I am curious about it. I'd love to hear everyone's thoughts on the subject.

This is not a problem. Most if the geography is written by Mormon who post-dated the major geographical changes.

[pritchet1]

Central America has essentially 2 seasons - one is rainy, South America has 4 seasons.

You seem to forget that whole civilizations got "lost" in the wilderness. The jungles of Central America can swallow up whole civilizations and many folks lived for centuries in various locations in Central and South America without being discovered by modern man.

The folks of the Book of Mormon moved north to the "land of many waters" and the Hill Cumorah obviously is in New York state, so we see migrations north, south and also into the Pacific regions.

Remember how we got the temple in Manti? The folks of the Book of Mormon obviously did a lot of traveling and had populated the continents from ocean to ocean, so there is room for those folks in all 3 Americas - North, Central and South.

As far as "Concrete buildings" are concerned, I worked on the Hanford Reservation and I have seen the concrete buildings deteriorate (and people have died by falling through their concrete roofs) since they were build in the '40s, so I can believe the ancients did build houses of concrete, but they didn't last. We have built hydroelectric dams in the wester USSA. The Grand Coulee dam my grandfather helped build is crumbling and the Corp of Engineers has already stated that when there is a quake over 7.0, they will let the dam burst so it can be replaced. They already have the funds in place to replace it and many other dams on the Columbia River. The concrete bridges along the Columbia River that were built in the '20s (Scenic route, Oregon side) are all crumbling. Why would we think there would be any evidence structures made of concrete would last the centuries?

Anyway, long story short, the Americas are the Book of Mormon lands. North, Central and South. I'm waiting for the rest of the Book of Mormon to be unsealed to see if any of it gives us clues of lost civilizations. I know it was certainly written for our day, because we are experiencing the things the ancients experienced and said would also happen in our day. Dejá Vù anyone?

[pritchet1]

Mountains sunk, valleys rose, the entire face of the land was changed. Doesn't it even say somewhere that the earth was divided at this time? I can't remember for sure. But the point is, can we rely on the physical descriptions in the Book of Mormon at all? What if the land changed so much that most of those descriptions are useless?

The temple veil was torn due to the massive quakes in the land of Jerusalem, but the Dead Sea is still there and so is Jerusalem. The Mediterranean is full of sunken cities and so is the Caribbean. The ancient temples in Central America still stand - and so do the Pyramids of Egypt. The Pan American Highway follows the paths place there by the ancients.

Yes, we can rely on physical descriptions in the Book of Mormon and those have helped generate excitement in Central America to find lost cities as well as the Indian Mounds in North America and the hidden cities in the Grand Canyon, etc. The land did not change so much that the descriptions are useless. They excite the minds of those with wanderlust in their hearts.

However, I doubt we will ever see "Nephi" written on any stella. On the other hand, Books of Mormon written in Arabic and read by my Muslim friends from Arabia have told me the names in the Book of Mormon are familiar to them - Nephi, Lehi,etc. as Egyptian Gods - and they have no problem believing the Book of Mormon is true. Testimony enough for me.

[livy111us]

I think Rod Meldrum is right and the place was by the Great Lakes in the USA. The DNA matches,

There is no geneticist who supports Rod Meldrums claim on the DNA. Actually, it's quite the contrary. Even LDS geneticists who are neutral on BOM geography see major problems with Meldrums claims and find countless amateur mistakes made on his part. He is relying on information that is decades old in a science that is just as old and being refined. It is like using medical books from the 1800's as fact while discounting, literally, everything that has been published since.
http://www.bmaf.org/node/445" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

they found city ruins with walls on top of earthen works in the eastern US near the Great Lakes, like the BOM describes.

There are also similar cities in Mesoamerica. The problem with earthen mounds in the Great Lakes area is that the population did not exist in BOM time periods. During The Book of Mormon, the indians in that area (the Hopewell) were so small in number, that the *entire* civilization would have been wiped out in one major Book of Mormon battle. They lived in small villages, not huge cities like BOM peoples. It is like saying the population of Antarctica is actually a huge civilization that numbered in the millions and lived in a complex culture with huge buildings. The Hopewell can't even pass the most basic pre-requisites to be considered BOM peoples.
http://www.bmaf.org/node/394" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

JS talked about Zelph the white Lamanite on Zion's march,

This is one thing that bothers me about someone who has an agenda, particularly Rod Meldrum. He highlights statements by Joseph Smith that place The Book of Mormon in his geography as proof of it's accuracy. What he fails to mention is that Joseph Smith also placed The Book of Mormon in the western United States, Canada, and countless times in Mesoamerica. Again, I see dis-honesty in showing only the evidence which supports your theory, while pretending all the other evidence that contradicts your theory doesn't even exist.
Also, by accepting the Zelph account you will have to dismiss the entire Great Lakes theory geography. Levi Hancock recorded Joseph Smith saying this about the Zelph account.

“On the way to Illinois River where we camped on the west side, in the morning many went to see the big mound about a mile below the crossing. I did not go on it but saw some bones that [were] brought, with a broken arrow. They [were] laid down by our camp. Joseph addressed himself to Sylvester Smith: “This is what I told you, and now I want to tell you, that you may know what I meant. This land was called the Land of Desolation, and Onandagus was the King, and a good man was he. There in that mound did he bury his dead. And [they] did not dig holes as the people do now, but they brought there dirt and covered them until, you see, they have raised it to be about one hundred feet high. The last man buried was Zelph. He was a White Lamanite who fought with the people of Onandagus for freedom.” (Levi Hancock Journal)

Ed Goble wrote "Notice, Mr. Meldrum, how the placement of the Land of Zarahemla in my old geography is where Joseph Smith said was Desolation. HMMM. Joseph Smith just refuted all North American Setting geographies! That is, if you believe Joseph Smith knew anything about geography, which you seem to claim he did. Joseph Smith’s own words, push the land of zarahemla and the narrow neck south of the United States."

the 4 seasons of the BOM are in North America and South America has only two seasons.

This is a point that can be argued, but The BOM requires a temperature high enough to sustain life for someone who is naked all year long. The climate in the Great Lakes area gets so frigid, and gets so much snow, that the Lamanite warriors and Nephite prisoners would have perished in this weather. However, in Mesoamerica, wearing loin clothes year round would be common due to the tropical weather.

The distance between two of the Great Lakes, the narrow neck of land is a day and a half apart.

However, that narrow neck is East-West, not North and South. If that is the narrow neck, then the hill Cumorah would be directly east of the not North of the narrow neck. It's an impossible correlation. There needs to be more than just one parallel to be considered a BOM location. While it is "a" narrow neck, there are too many factors which say it is not "the" narrow neck of land.

The oceans in the BOM are described as the great deep and seas (Great Lakes) are like the size of the Red sea and the dead sea.

Quite possible. But there are too many other, and bigger problems.

[Rose Garden]

Here's a problem that I see with a lot of people's assumptions of the Book of Mormon lands. They seem to be fitting a lot of people into small spaces. Maybe it's me who just doesn't understand how big the areas are that I'm seeing on the maps.

That's the major problem I see with the North America/Great Lakes model. How on earth would all those millions of people fit into that area? We're talking old times and no skyscrapers. People would have needed to spread out to farm. Of course, I've never been to the area and am just seeing it on a map. Still, it just doesn't seem logical to me.

Another problem I just ran across today is that the Lamanites were said to have spread over the land from the sea East to the sea West. So they covered all of the United States coast to coast, but the Nephites were stuck in that little area around the lakes? There is no sea East or sea West South of the narrow neck besides the Pacific and Atlantic oceans.

Good point about Mormon, by the way, livy111us. Mormon probably would have made a note about the changes if the ones in the Book of Mormon didn't apply.

Oh, and I'd love to see some quotes by Joseph Smith if anyone knows of any. I haven't seen anything yet that could definitively pinpoint the Book of Mormon setting in the North. Everything I've seen so far could be explained by Nephites migrating. If he actually pointed the location of Zerahemla or told us which river was Sidon, then that would be worth something.

[livy111us]

Here are a few resources on Joseph Smiths beliefs:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVCXOpxga3Q" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.bmaf.org/node/444" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.bmaf.org/node/381" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Here is a list of several statements, but not all of them.

http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon ... seph_Smith" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Here is a map that Joseph Smith drew which shows The BOM to have taken place in Mesoamerica, with lines showing Moroni's travels all the way up to Cumorah in New York. http://www.elektroteck.com/bens/SCAN0003.JPG" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Rose Garden]

Thanks, those are some great resources.

I'm wondering where some people are getting the idea that there were four seasons in the Book of Mormon. I've never seen anything myself that would indicate that to me. Anyone able to point to a verse?

[marc]

Four seasons aren't mentioned specifically, but here are some interesting scriptures from which you can research seasons of grain, fruit, war, fevers and beasts. Interesting that Alma 46 specifies some seasons of the year. That sounds like more than two seasons to me:

Helaman 11:17
17 And it came to pass that in the seventy and sixth year the Lord did turn away his anger from the people, and caused that rain should fall upon the earth, insomuch that it did bring forth her fruit in the season of her fruit. And it came to pass that it did bring forth her grain in the season of her grain.

Alma 46:40
40 And there were some who died with fevers, which at some seasons of the year were very frequent in the land—but not so much so with fevers, because of the excellent qualities of the many plants and roots which God had prepared to remove the cause of diseases, to which men were subject by the nature of the climate—

Mosiah 18:4
4 And it came to pass that as many as did believe him did go forth to a place which was called Mormon, having received its name from the king, being in the borders of the land having been infested, by times or at seasons, by wild beasts.

Helaman 11:13
13 O Lord, wilt thou hearken unto me, and cause that it may be done according to my words, and send forth rain upon the face of the earth, that she may bring forth her fruit, and her grain in the season of grain.

Alma 57:17
17 But it came to pass that on the morrow they did return. And now behold, we did not inquire of them concerning the prisoners; for behold, the Lamanites were upon us, and they returned in season to save us from falling into their hands. For behold, Ammoron had sent to their support a new supply of provisions and also a numerous army of men.

Helaman 11:6
6 And this work of destruction did also continue in the seventy and fifth year. For the earth was smitten that it was dry, and did not yield forth grain in the season of grain; and the whole earth was smitten, even among the Lamanites as well as among the Nephites, so that they were smitten that they did perish by thousands in the more wicked parts of the land.

[Vision]

I think Rod Meldrum is right and the place was by the Great Lakes in the USA. The DNA matches, they found city ruins with walls on top of earthen works in the eastern US near the Great Lakes, like the BOM describes. JS talked about Zelph the white Lamanite on Zion's march, the 4 seasons of the BOM are in North America and South America has only two seasons. The distance between two of the Great Lakes, the narrow neck of land is a day and a half apart. The oceans in the BOM are described as the great deep and seas (Great Lakes) are like the size of the Red sea and the dead sea. I think it all adds up. Just my opinion. Of course there was 1000 years from when the BOM ended and when Columbus discoverd America, lots can happen in 1000 years.

There are so many mounds and ruins that were never preserved or studied in the Great Lake's Region that we will never know for sure, but I tend to believe the Great Lakes theory.

There is a lot of evidence that there was a pale skinned people in North America, like the Kennewick Man and the Neveda Woman.

[pritchet1]

Funny you should mention the Kennewick man. His remains are on the other side of the Cascades in the Burke Museum in the University of Washington in Seattle. He was considered "not Indian" and was not allowed a Umatilla Indian burial, after he got dug up in the TriCities next to the Columbia River in Kennewick.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kennewick_Man" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The biological diversity among ancient skulls in the Americas has further complicated attempts to establish how closely Kennewick Man is related to any modern Native American tribes. Skulls older than 8,000 years old have been found to possess greater physical diversity than do those of modern Native Americans. This range implies that there was a genetic shift in populations about 8,000 years ago. The heterogeneity of these early people shows that genetic drift had already occurred, meaning the racial type represented by Kennewick Man had been in existence for a considerable period of time.

The discovery of Kennewick Man, along with other ancient skeletons, has furthered scientific debate over the exact origin and history of early Native American people. One hypothesis holds that a single wave of migration occurred, consisting of hunters and gatherers following large herds of game, which wandered across the Bering land bridge around 12,000 years ago. Other hypotheses contend that there were numerous waves of migration to the Americas. The apparent diversity of ancient skeletal remains, which may include traits not typically associated with modern Native Americans, has been used as evidence to support these rival hypotheses. A 2008 study on the genetics of modern Native American populations suggests that the 86 samples taken are descendants of a single migration that spread out along a coastal route prior to the Clovis era.

[livy111us]

I am curious why the Kennewick man and Nevada woman bring you to believe in a Great Lakes setting for The Book of Mormon? They lived no where near the Great Lakes region but lived thousands of miles away.

Also, white indians have also been found in Central and South America.

[pritchet1]

Great Lakes setting jives with the Hill Cumorah and the Indian Mounds. THe other folks just states there were more than "Indians" here in this continent. I'm surprised they didn't lay claim that Kennewick Man was Adam ;^).

[haddomr]

by livy111us » Sat Sep 08, 2012 7:49 pm



haddomr wrote:I think Rod Meldrum is right and the place was by the Great Lakes in the USA. The DNA matches,


There is no geneticist who supports Rod Meldrums claim on the DNA. Actually, it's quite the contrary. Even LDS geneticists who are neutral on BOM geography see major problems with Meldrums claims and find countless amateur mistakes made on his part. He is relying on information that is decades old in a science that is just as old and being refined. It is like using medical books from the 1800's as fact while discounting, literally, everything that has been published since.
http://www.bmaf.org/node/445" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The problem the geneticists, you quote in your article, have is with carbon dating. Rod Meldrum addresses that in his video by talking about the maternal DNA done on a Russian CZAR and showing that Adam and Eve would be 6000 years ago or so, not 10's of thousands, hundreds of thousands or millions of years ago. You seem to be big on attacking Meldrum and not his arguments. You also use exaggeration "medical books from the 1800's".

haddomr wrote: they found city ruins with walls on top of earthen works in the eastern US near the Great Lakes, like the BOM describes.


There are also similar cities in Mesoamerica. The problem with earthen mounds in the Great Lakes area is that the population did not exist in BOM time periods. During The Book of Mormon, the indians in that area (the Hopewell) were so small in number, that the *entire* civilization would have been wiped out in one major Book of Mormon battle. They lived in small villages, not huge cities like BOM peoples. It is like saying the population of Antarctica is actually a huge civilization that numbered in the millions and lived in a complex culture with huge buildings. The Hopewell can't even pass the most basic pre-requisites to be considered BOM peoples.
http://www.bmaf.org/node/394" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Nothing wrong with Meldrum's argument here.


haddomr wrote: JS talked about Zelph the white Lamanite on Zion's march,


This is one thing that bothers me about someone who has an agenda, particularly Rod Meldrum. He highlights statements by Joseph Smith that place The Book of Mormon in his geography as proof of it's accuracy. What he fails to mention is that Joseph Smith also placed The Book of Mormon in the western United States, Canada, and countless times in Mesoamerica. Again, I see dis-honesty in showing only the evidence which supports your theory, while pretending all the other evidence that contradicts your theory doesn't even exist.
Also, by accepting the Zelph account you will have to dismiss the entire Great Lakes theory geography. Levi Hancock recorded Joseph Smith saying this about the Zelph account.

“On the way to Illinois River where we camped on the west side, in the morning many went to see the big mound about a mile below the crossing. I did not go on it but saw some bones that [were] brought, with a broken arrow. They [were] laid down by our camp. Joseph addressed himself to Sylvester Smith: “This is what I told you, and now I want to tell you, that you may know what I meant. This land was called the Land of Desolation, and Onandagus was the King, and a good man was he. There in that mound did he bury his dead. And [they] did not dig holes as the people do now, but they brought there dirt and covered them until, you see, they have raised it to be about one hundred feet high. The last man buried was Zelph. He was a White Lamanite who fought with the people of Onandagus for freedom.” (Levi Hancock Journal)

Ed Goble wrote "Notice, Mr. Meldrum, how the placement of the Land of Zarahemla in my old geography is where Joseph Smith said was Desolation. HMMM. Joseph Smith just refuted all North American Setting geographies! That is, if you believe Joseph Smith knew anything about geography, which you seem to claim he did. Joseph Smith’s own words, push the land of zarahemla and the narrow neck south of the United States."

Thanks for adding that the BOM came from the Hill Cumorah, I forgot to mention that. The Ed Goble quote was lost on me...the logic doesn't have enough information to make sense, try to make your statements more coherent so I can understand them. The Levi Hancock quote was good and supportive of the Meldrum position.




haddomr wrote: the 4 seasons of the BOM are in North America and South America has only two seasons.

This is a point that can be argued, but The BOM requires a temperature high enough to sustain life for someone who is naked all year long. The climate in the Great Lakes area gets so frigid, and gets so much snow, that the Lamanite warriors and Nephite prisoners would have perished in this weather. However, in Mesoamerica, wearing loin clothes year round would be common due to the tropical weather.

The point is that Meldrum could be right and likely is. Your argument that he could be wrong is no argument at all. Meldrum has too many points that all add up.

haddomr wrote:The distance between two of the Great Lakes, the narrow neck of land is a day and a half apart.


However, that narrow neck is East-West, not North and South. If that is the narrow neck, then the hill Cumorah would be directly east of the not North of the narrow neck. It's an impossible correlation. There needs to be more than just one parallel to be considered a BOM location. While it is "a" narrow neck, there are too many factors which say it is not "the" narrow neck of land.

I don't think it says the narrow neck is East-West in the BOM. North-South works if it leads to the land northward. See Alma 63:5
5 And it came to pass that Hagoth, he being an exceedingly curious man, therefore he went forth and built him an exceedingly large ship, on the borders of the land Bountiful, by the land Desolation, and launched it forth into the west sea, by the narrow neck which led into the land northward.

haddomr wrote: The oceans in the BOM are described as the great deep and seas (Great Lakes) are like the size of the Red sea and the dead sea.

Quite possible. But there are too many other, and bigger problems.

"Too many other, and bigger problems" is not much of an answer. Try again.