Location of the Book of Mormon Lands

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samizdat
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Re: Location of the Book of Mormon Lands

Post by samizdat »

One thing that I am seeing a little more, is the Andean theory. But at the same time, not too much is known about the issue of geography.

At the same time, I have heard from my father in law (an ex Area 70) that the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve know exactly where the Book of Mormon events have taken place, and have revealed it to many GAs and AAs.

The reason why the membership as a whole does not know it, is because there is too much division in the Church and the testimonies of many members would be impacted as a result, should the real things be revealed today.

I personally ascribe to the Mesoamerican idea, mixed with a bit of Andean and North American, but really have no further information. My father in law is personally mum on the subject.

HeirofNumenor
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Re: Location of the Book of Mormon Lands

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My father in law is personally mum on the subject.
Smart man.

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Benjamin Harrison
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Re: Location of the Book of Mormon Lands

Post by Benjamin Harrison »

And this one too. For a friendly reminder.

embryopocket
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Re: Location of the Book of Mormon Lands

Post by embryopocket »

There's so much evidence for both sides of this debate, I really have not come to a conclusion as of yet. However, I would like to set one thing straight: This whole continent (North + South America) is the promised land. It is Zion, the land promised to the tribes of Ephraim and Manasseh

"And of Joseph he said, Blessed of the Lord be his land, for the precious things of heaven, for the dew, and for the deep that coucheth beneath,

And for the precious fruits brought forth by the sun, and for the precious things put forth by the moon,

And for the chief things of the ancient mountains, and for the precious things of the lasting hills,

And for the precious things of the earth and fulness thereof, and for the good will of him that dwelt in the bush: let the blessing come upon the head of Joseph, and upon the top of the head of him that was separated from his brethren.

His glory is like the firstling of his bullock, and his horns are like the horns of unicorns: with them he shall push the people together to the ends of the earth: and they are the ten thousands of Ephraim, and they are the thousands of Manasseh." - Deuteronomy 33:13-17


When Moses mentions "the lasting hills" he is referring to North + South America. We see another mention of these hills in the prophecy of the return of the 10 tribes:

"And the boundaries of the everlasting hills shall tremble at their presence." - D&C 133:31

The fact that the promised land is the entire continent of North + South America has been taught by the Lord's prophets for years. This continent is one of freedom. After the American Revolution against Britain, the Spanish colonies in Central/South America also began to revolt against their oppressive leaders to form independent democratic republics with Constitutions as the supreme law of the land. These Constitutions were modeled after ours (although important parts were changed/left out).

However, when the "great Gentile nation" is mentioned in the Book of Mormon, this is specifically the United States of America.

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A Random Phrase
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Re: Location of the Book of Mormon Lands

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Embryopocket, I think of this scripture also, when I think of North and South America:
Alma 46:
16 And therefore, at this time, Moroni prayed that the cause of the Christians, and the freedom of the land might be favored.
17 And it came to pass that when he had poured out his soul to God, he named all the land which was south of the land Desolation, yea, and in fine, all the land, both on the north and on the south—A chosen land, and the land of liberty.
18 And he said: Surely God shall not suffer that we, who are despised because we take upon us the name of Christ, shall be trodden down and destroyed, until we bring it upon us by our own transgressions

embryopocket
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Re: Location of the Book of Mormon Lands

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A Random Phrase wrote:Embryopocket, I think of this scripture also, when I think of North and South America:
Alma 46:
16 And therefore, at this time, Moroni prayed that the cause of the Christians, and the freedom of the land might be favored.
17 And it came to pass that when he had poured out his soul to God, he named all the land which was south of the land Desolation, yea, and in fine, all the land, both on the north and on the south—A chosen land, and the land of liberty.
18 And he said: Surely God shall not suffer that we, who are despised because we take upon us the name of Christ, shall be trodden down and destroyed, until we bring it upon us by our own transgressions
:) Thank you, I didn't even remember that that scripture existed!

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soldierboy
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Re: Location of the Book of Mormon Lands

Post by soldierboy »

I just don't know. The first "Mormon" books/pubs I ever read included tons of FARMS stuff and most of what Sorensen and his friends put out. But I do have to admit that their meso-American model countered my own subjective experience.

I had the (mis)fortune to spend nearly 5 years in Panama, during which I visited almost every country in Latin America at least once, and typically more. Then my family and I drove up the Interamerican Highway from Panama to the US. (that was in '75 - don't try it now! It was a hairy enough trip back then!) We visited numerous of the old temple ruins in El Salvador, Guatemala and southern Mexico. To be frank, some of those places literally made me sick, with their really bad energy!

To this day, when I see a painting of the Lord in one of those meso-American temple settings, I cringe a little inside. They may look good, but it just does NOT feel good to me. Yes, I know that things in that area (including "temple" usage) could have changed a lot in 1600 years, but I've been on top of several of those structures. Frankly, they seem more built to be sacrificial altars, than temples in any sense we may be familiar with.

It is far easier for me to wrap my mind around the notion of wooden temple structures a la Hopewell, than those massive stone structures. I recall that there were various mentions of wooden temples in the BoM. Just my HO, though admittedly.

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Rose Garden
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Re: Location of the Book of Mormon Lands

Post by Rose Garden »

Thanks, soldierboy. That's a great insight.

larsenb
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Re: Location of the Book of Mormon Lands

Post by larsenb »

Here is an interesting item from the BMAF email newsletter (BMAF:162 Looking for Artifacts at New York's Hill Cumorah) featuring "a letter by Langdon Smith of New Haven, Vermont, and addressed to John E. Clark, professor of anthropology at Brigham Young University and director of the BYU New World Archaeological Foundation, based in Chiapas, Mexico". Apparently very little evidence of warfare artifacts from the regions surrounding the Hill Cumorah.
February 8, 2013

Looking for Artifacts at New York's Hill Cumorah

The following account of artifact hunting in the fields surrounding Hill Cumorah, near Palmyra, New York, is from a letter by Langdon Smith of New Haven, Vermont, and addressed to John E. Clark, professor of anthropology at Brigham Young University and director of the BYU New World Archaeological Foundation, based in Chiapas, Mexico. The letter has been slightly edited and is used with the author's permission. Mr. Smith wrote the letter in response to Dr. Clark's article "Archaeology and Cumorah Questions" (JBMS 13/1—2, 2004), which presents evidence that the archaeology of New York does not support the idea that Book of Mormon peoples lived in that region or that New York's Hill Cumorah was the scene of the final battles between the Nephites and the Lamanites. —Ed.

On my dairy farm in Vermont in the mid-1950s, while harrowing in the spring, I saw a black, pointed object. It was a black chert "knife." Wow! I have always been interested in historical things. So I looked all around, but that was it. Several years ago I found another point. My farm efforts were winding down, so I had more time to look.

Since retiring, I have worked on some state site digs with professionals. By myself I have also found over 378 new Native American sites, obtaining Vermont State site numbers for all of them. I have made out all the required survey forms and sent the relevant information to the state offices.

At this time, I have close to 5,000 arrowheads with all the other tools—bifaces, preforms, knives, scrapers, and so on. Altogether I have 17,000 pieces. Each piece has been traced, with the site number and catalog numbers painted on. Maps are made of each site with X marks locating where each piece was found.

In working with the state, I get to see things that I'm probably not supposed to see—like a New York State site map. Around Syracuse and the areas in eastern New York State there are many sites recorded, as there are around and south of Rochester in western New York. But around the Hill Cumorah area, the closest site numbers are about 60 miles away.

Wherever early American sites are, collectors will find them, plowed fields being the best place to look. Having been to the Hill Cumorah Pageant at other times, I knew that there were plowed fields nearby. Since I had the experience of searching and finding sites, my interest in finding sites of possible Nephite/Lamanite arrowheads was high. There were also stories of how Brother Willard Bean found arrowheads by the basketful around the hill and sold them to tourists. If battles took place at the hill, and a lot of people took part—everything sounds about right—the area should be covered with all kinds of artifacts.

I have made the seven-hour drive twice in the past few years. Both times I traveled to Palmyra during the early planting season—fields just plowed and harrowed, following a good rain to wash the dirt off any artifacts. There are some areas that are not plowed and cannot easily be hunted, including the seating area west of the hill and the car parking area on the west side of the highway. North of the hill there is a gully going west to east with trees growing along it, circling from west of the road past the north end of the hill to the east side. Along the whole east side of the hill is a large plowed field. To the north of the gully with trees is the farm that is owned by the Clark family. They have several plowed fields in the area.

Arriving at Cumorah, I have asked workers on the grounds around the visitors' center and people inside the center about arrowheads. Their comments were: "Oh yes, people find them around here all the time." I would ask, "Have you found any yourself?" "Well, no." "Do you know anyone who has found some?" "No." "Have you seen any actual pieces found by others?" "No."

I have walked to the big meadow east of the hill. I have searched it thoroughly. I was thinking, "There have to be remains here, but where?" No artifacts—not even flint chips of any kind. So I went north to the Clark farm. I stopped and asked the owner's wife if I could walk over the corn field. "What are you looking for?" "Looking for arrowheads—is it okay?" "Well, sure." "You must get pestered a lot by people wanting to go out there looking around." "We've been here over 40 years, and you're the first to come and ask to hunt for arrowheads."

If there are artifacts out there, collectors will find them, and they and their friends will be all over that area. The Clarks' fields yielded the same as the one east of the hill: not one single arrowhead and not one single piece of flint chipping. Crisscrossing all those plowed fields, which are hundreds of acres, I found no evidence of any kind. If a large group of people came to this hill and had a big battle, they would have been making and sharpening more tools—artifacts. If there are no arrowheads, what about all of the broken pieces, the chips, the flakes—leftovers from making and sharpening? Some of these pieces would be smaller than a little fingernail. Where are these pieces? People do not generally pick up this trash.

Before my first trip to Palmyra, I received the name from a friend of a Mr. J. Sheldon Fisher, who lived in the small town of Fishers, about 10 miles southwest of the hill (he passed away in 2002). He owned what is called the Valentown Museum. The museum barn has one floor devoted to early American artifacts; the second floor is full of all types of antiques. He was a great historian of the happenings down through time in that area. He supplied most of the early-1800s furniture used in the area's visitors' centers. There was an article about him in the 3 March 2001 Church News on his finds about an old Brigham Young home (Shaun D. Stahle, "Excavating Brigham Young's mill site"). He worked as a professional archaeologist for the state of New York for over 30 years. So he knew what he was doing.

He said that he had a standing agreement with all of the bulldozer and backhoe people in the county. They would call him when they were about to start jobs in the area. Many times, he said, "I'd beat them to the site—I'd get there before they would." He always watched the soil as they dug it or pushed it around. But he never found any artifacts of any kind. I have spent evenings on both trips to Palmyra talking with him about the area and its history. His comment on my last trip was, "Oh, I hope this doesn't shake your faith." I answered, "No, it doesn't. The Church is still true. The Book of Mormon is true. And those plates came out of that hill. 'The battle'—well, it must have been at some other hill."
John Lund makes an excellent case for Joseph Smith being the actual author of the Times and Seasons articles of 1842, placing Book of Mormon lands and Zarahemla in particular in a S. Mexico/Guatemala area setting. Incontrovertible, in my view.

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A Random Phrase
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Re: Location of the Book of Mormon Lands

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Soldierboy, your view makes sense. I know that buildings leave behind the spirit that was invited in by those who dwelt there. I have felt it in homes. I would tend to believe you are accurate. Had the people not been vile, God would not have allowed them to be destroyed (I think it was Nephi who said that God would not have allowed the children of Israel to wipe out the people had the people not been ripe in iniquity. It may have been Alma or Mormon, though).

embryopocket
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Re: Location of the Book of Mormon Lands

Post by embryopocket »

I'll admit that I gave up investigating this topic about a year ago because there was so much supporting evidence on both sides and then there's this:
But behold, there was a more great and terrible destruction in the land northward; for behold, the whole face of the land was changed, because of the tempest and the whirlwinds, and the thunderings and the lightnings, and the exceedingly great quaking of the whole earth; - 3 Nephi 8:12
That scripture destroys any surety of making an accurate comparison between Book of Mormon geography and our geography because most (if not all) the geography scriptures that theory supporters use come from before 3 Nephi 8. Perhaps what was then a "narrow neck of land" became a huge landmass with mountains after the signs of Christ's crucifixion.

However, your comments have inspired me to research this topic a little further and to ask the Lord if He would permit me to know the physical location of where the wonderful stories from the Book of Mormon took place. The last time that I was really interested in knowing, I was only using my mind and forgot the "ask and ye shall receive" part of revelation ;) My dad has a few books written on the subject, I'll have to swipe them from his library. :)

livy111us
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Re: Location of the Book of Mormon Lands

Post by livy111us »

embryopocket wrote:
That scripture destroys any surety of making an accurate comparison between Book of Mormon geography and our geography because most (if not all) the geography scriptures that theory supporters use come from before 3 Nephi 8.

Since all the geography presented for the Nephites was given by Mormon himself, we don’t have to worry too much about supposed great changes in the map. After giving several directions and geographical features in Alma 22:27-34, Mormon says “And now I, after having said this, return again to the account of Ammon and Aaron, Omner and Himni, and their brethren” in verse 35. So the geographical features mentioned in The Book of Mormon are the same geographical features of today.

embryopocket
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Re: Location of the Book of Mormon Lands

Post by embryopocket »

livy111us wrote:
embryopocket wrote:
That scripture destroys any surety of making an accurate comparison between Book of Mormon geography and our geography because most (if not all) the geography scriptures that theory supporters use come from before 3 Nephi 8.

Since all the geography presented for the Nephites was given by Mormon himself, we don’t have to worry too much about supposed great changes in the map. After giving several directions and geographical features in Alma 22:27-34, Mormon says “And now I, after having said this, return again to the account of Ammon and Aaron, Omner and Himni, and their brethren” in verse 35. So the geographical features mentioned in The Book of Mormon are the same geographical features of today.
Holy cow, I hadn't even thought of that! Thanks for opening my eyes on that one :D

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A Random Phrase
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Re: Location of the Book of Mormon Lands

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Embryopocket, I was thinking along the same lines: wondering how things had changed.

Also, I know that people continue referring to something by its old name long after it has gone. Examples I've come across, "The burnt store" "[so and so's] house" - I can't remember others, but they are place names that make no sense to newcomers because the thing referred to has been torn down, built over, roads moved. I even wondered if "the narrow neck of land" was something like that.

livy111us
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Re: Location of the Book of Mormon Lands

Post by livy111us »

A Random Phrase wrote:Embryopocket, I was thinking along the same lines: wondering how things had changed.

Also, I know that people continue referring to something by its old name long after it has gone. Examples I've come across, "The burnt store" "[so and so's] house" - I can't remember others, but they are place names that make no sense to newcomers because the thing referred to has been torn down, built over, roads moved. I even wondered if "the narrow neck of land" was something like that.
Speaking of the narrow neck of land, this is a pretty cool (short) video on a good possibility of what the narrow neck was

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PgH-byF1gJw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

livy111us
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Re: Location of the Book of Mormon Lands

Post by livy111us »

embryopocket wrote: Holy cow, I hadn't even thought of that! Thanks for opening my eyes on that one :D
No problem, glad it helped!

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A Random Phrase
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Re: Location of the Book of Mormon Lands

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I never thought about the day or day and a half's travel being the time a military runner took to cross the narrow neck of land. Interesting.

livy111us
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Re: Location of the Book of Mormon Lands

Post by livy111us »

You can watch the entire video for free, here:

http://journeyoffaithfilms.com/videos/watch-new-world" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It's put together very well and has some excellent insights.

HeirofNumenor
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Re: Location of the Book of Mormon Lands

Post by HeirofNumenor »

Had the people not been vile, God would not have allowed them to be destroyed (I think it was Nephi who said that God would not have allowed the children of Israel to wipe out the people had the people not been ripe in iniquity. It may have been Alma or Mormon, though).
Here ya go:
1 Nephi 17:
29 Yea, and ye also know that Moses, by his word according to the power of God which was in him, smote the rock, and there came forth water, that the children of Israel might quench their thirst.

30 And notwithstanding they being led, the Lord their God, their Redeemer, going before them, leading them by day and giving light unto them by night, and doing all things for them which were expedient for man to receive, they hardened their hearts and blinded their minds, and reviled against Moses and against the true and living God.

31 And it came to pass that according to his word he did destroy them; and according to his word he did lead them; and according to his word he did do all things for them; and there was not any thing done save it were by his word.

32 And after they had crossed the river Jordan he did make them mighty unto the driving out of the children of the land, yea, unto the scattering them to destruction.

33 And now, do ye suppose that the children of this land, who were in the land of promise, who were driven out by our fathers, do ye suppose that they were righteous? Behold, I say unto you, Nay.

34 Do ye suppose that our fathers would have been more choice than they if they had been righteous? I say unto you, Nay.

35 Behold, the Lord esteemeth all flesh in one; he that is righteous is favored of God. But behold, this people had rejected every word of God, and they were ripe in iniquity; and the fulness of the wrath of God was upon them; and the Lord did curse the land against them, and bless it unto our fathers; yea, he did curse it against them unto their destruction, and he did bless it unto our fathers unto their obtaining power over it.


36 Behold, the Lord hath created the earth that it should be inhabited; and he hath created his children that they should possess it.

37 And he raiseth up a righteous nation, and destroyeth the nations of the wicked.

38 And he leadeth away the righteous into precious lands, and the wicked he destroyeth, and curseth the land unto them for their sakes.

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Rose Garden
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Re: Location of the Book of Mormon Lands

Post by Rose Garden »

embryopocket wrote:I'll admit that I gave up investigating this topic about a year ago because there was so much supporting evidence on both sides and then there's this:
But behold, there was a more great and terrible destruction in the land northward; for behold, the whole face of the land was changed, because of the tempest and the whirlwinds, and the thunderings and the lightnings, and the exceedingly great quaking of the whole earth; - 3 Nephi 8:12
That scripture destroys any surety of making an accurate comparison between Book of Mormon geography and our geography because most (if not all) the geography scriptures that theory supporters use come from before 3 Nephi 8. Perhaps what was then a "narrow neck of land" became a huge landmass with mountains after the signs of Christ's crucifixion.

However, your comments have inspired me to research this topic a little further and to ask the Lord if He would permit me to know the physical location of where the wonderful stories from the Book of Mormon took place. The last time that I was really interested in knowing, I was only using my mind and forgot the "ask and ye shall receive" part of revelation ;) My dad has a few books written on the subject, I'll have to swipe them from his library. :)
I'd be interested in knowing what you find out from asking the Lord on this matter, if you feel comfortable sharing.

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A Random Phrase
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Re: Location of the Book of Mormon Lands

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Thanks for the link, livy.

Heir, that is exactly the scripture. Thank you for posting it.

HeirofNumenor
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Re: Location of the Book of Mormon Lands

Post by HeirofNumenor »

:) :ymhug:

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