No CK for Adulterers.

[Raindropcaptain of 100]

I just want to say thank you for all the thoughts on this thread and thank you for letting me share some of my experience. RabbanahLlama, I just have a question for you. I think I have some understanding on your thoughts but just have some sincere questions. Do you think members who have been rebaptized for this sin, should never be allowed rebaptism which is necessary to return to the Celestial Kingdom? Do you think once they have been rebaptized and repented with a complete and broken heart and turned to the Lord, that they are still not clean through the Atonement?
Do you think a person who has committed this sin has completely given themselves over to Satan and that there is absolutely no way back for them? Are you saying the Church is operating differently than God would have it operate by allowing rebaptism? or Priesthood blessings?
I know this isn't your intention but as gmetz stated, there may be those earnestly trying to repent who's hopes may be dashed and believe me when you're going through a repentance process of that severity, it doesn't take much to dash those hopes and give in to the lie that you are forever claimed by Satan (which Satan has worked so hard on me to believe time and time again.) but I do bear my testimony that my Savior has claimed my soul and he remembers this no more. How absolutely amazing is that? I testify and bear testimony of His Atonement for me and I am so thankful for his mercy and love that we can not even begin to comprehend. I'm truly hoping to be able to have my temple blessings restored soon and have worked for it with all of my heart. It is the most difficult and long way back and if you have any understanding what it takes to make it back, (literally going through hell and back) judgements would cease and those people would be welcomed back with love just as the Savior does. I only say this because of what I have experienced. You are free to your beliefs and I do respect those but for me personally to say that me or anyone else that has committed this sin has no chance at entering the Celestial Kingdom is for me to deny the Atonement made for me by the Savior and for anyone else that is truly repentant. Christ offers perfect hope and his promises to the truly repentant are that their sins are remembered no more. This is what I believe and know to be true and I hope for anyone struggling with a sin this severe they will turn to the Savior for deliverance. They do not have to be claimed by Satan. I am so thankful for the Atonement in my life and I need it every single day and so thankful that the Savior provided a way back for me.

katmr.... I think everyone here appreciates you sharing your experience. I thank you for your testimony.

There are, however, many who are guilty of this grievous sin who do not relate to your experience even slightly. There are those who commit adultery and simply bide their time for the year when all is (supposedly) restored. There is no "hell and back" for them. There is sometimes little if any guilt whatsoever. They believe the Atonement covers their willful disobedience. They do not take seriously the warnings in the endowment about what will happen if they break those covenants. They divorce the old one and marry the new one a year later in the temple and everything's back where it was. They are surrounded by so many who are walking the same path. Surely they is safety in numbers. They have no fear of hell - they are in perfectly good standing with the Church and expect their Celestial rewards alongside all the ancient Patriarchs such as Joseph who was imprisoned rather than fall to this sin. They are just as good. Just as clean. Just as deserving. There was a time when adulterers were stoned and we wouldn't even be having this conversation. We've come a long way.

I appreciate Llama's quotes he posted. (And really, if they upset anyone... it's Brother Joseph and Joseph Fielding Smith, Jr. that you are upset with.) I think this is a good reminder of the grievous nature of this sin next to murder in its seriousness. Sin darkens the mind. The more one has sinned the more one's light and truth is taken away. The more one sins, the less they see things as they really are. They should, like Corianton, listen to and follow the counsel of those who have not been guilty of such grievous sins for the remainder of their lives.

Some don't agree with the Church raising the bar on missionaries. I do. As times get closer we need men (and women) who have the Holy Ghost. Deception will be even more rampant and the blurring of good/evil more subtle. Let's not be deceived into thinking adultery or other sins breaking the law of chastity are easy to overcome. Or that we can know good and evil, willingly choose the evil, easily be forgiven and then be in the same boat as those who knew good and evil and chose, sometimes at great cost, the good.

[katmrcaptain of 100]

I just want to say thank you for all the thoughts on this thread and thank you for letting me share some of my experience. RabbanahLlama, I just have a question for you. I think I have some understanding on your thoughts but just have some sincere questions. Do you think members who have been rebaptized for this sin, should never be allowed rebaptism which is necessary to return to the Celestial Kingdom? Do you think once they have been rebaptized and repented with a complete and broken heart and turned to the Lord, that they are still not clean through the Atonement?
Do you think a person who has committed this sin has completely given themselves over to Satan and that there is absolutely no way back for them? Are you saying the Church is operating differently than God would have it operate by allowing rebaptism? or Priesthood blessings?
I know this isn't your intention but as gmetz stated, there may be those earnestly trying to repent who's hopes may be dashed and believe me when you're going through a repentance process of that severity, it doesn't take much to dash those hopes and give in to the lie that you are forever claimed by Satan (which Satan has worked so hard on me to believe time and time again.) but I do bear my testimony that my Savior has claimed my soul and he remembers this no more. How absolutely amazing is that? I testify and bear testimony of His Atonement for me and I am so thankful for his mercy and love that we can not even begin to comprehend. I'm truly hoping to be able to have my temple blessings restored soon and have worked for it with all of my heart. It is the most difficult and long way back and if you have any understanding what it takes to make it back, (literally going through hell and back) judgements would cease and those people would be welcomed back with love just as the Savior does. I only say this because of what I have experienced. You are free to your beliefs and I do respect those but for me personally to say that me or anyone else that has committed this sin has no chance at entering the Celestial Kingdom is for me to deny the Atonement made for me by the Savior and for anyone else that is truly repentant. Christ offers perfect hope and his promises to the truly repentant are that their sins are remembered no more. This is what I believe and know to be true and I hope for anyone struggling with a sin this severe they will turn to the Savior for deliverance. They do not have to be claimed by Satan. I am so thankful for the Atonement in my life and I need it every single day and so thankful that the Savior provided a way back for me.

katmr.... I think everyone here appreciates you sharing your experience. I thank you for your testimony.

There are, however, many who are guilty of this grievous sin who do not relate to your experience even slightly. There are those who commit adultery and simply bide their time for the year when all is (supposedly) restored. There is no "hell and back" for them. There is sometimes little if any guilt whatsoever. They believe the Atonement covers their willful disobedience. They do not take seriously the warnings in the endowment about what will happen if they break those covenants. They divorce the old one and marry the new one a year later in the temple and everything's back where it was. They are surrounded by so many who are walking the same path. Surely they is safety in numbers. They have no fear of hell - they are in perfectly good standing with the Church and expect their Celestial rewards alongside all the ancient Patriarchs such as Joseph who was imprisoned rather than fall to this sin. They are just as good. Just as clean. Just as deserving. There was a time when adulterers were stoned and we wouldn't even be having this conversation. We've come a long way.

I appreciate Llama's quotes he posted. (And really, if they upset anyone... it's Brother Joseph and Joseph Fielding Smith, Jr. that you are upset with.) I think this is a good reminder of the grievous nature of this sin next to murder in its seriousness. Sin darkens the mind. The more one has sinned the more one's light and truth is taken away. The more one sins, the less they see things as they really are. They should, like Corianton, listen to and follow the counsel of those who have not been guilty of such grievous sins for the remainder of their lives.

Some don't agree with the Church raising the bar on missionaries. I do. As times get closer we need men (and women) who have the Holy Ghost. Deception will be even more rampant and the blurring of good/evil more subtle. Let's not be deceived into thinking adultery or other sins breaking the law of chastity are easy to overcome. Or that we can know good and evil, willingly choose the evil, easily be forgiven and then be in the same boat as those who knew good and evil and chose, sometimes at great cost, the good.

Raindrop, I agree. Thank you for your thoughts.

[Raindropcaptain of 100]

well, just hell. how about we use the Lords meaning:

Behold, it is written by them of old time, that thou shalt not commit adultery;

28 But I say unto you, that whosoever looketh on a woman, to lust after her, hath committed adultery already in his heart.

29 Behold, I give unto you a commandment, that ye suffer none of these things to enter into your heart;

30 For it is better that ye should deny yourselves of these things, wherein ye will take up your across, than that ye should be cast into hell.

so, anyone who has committed adultery already in your heart, you are going to hell.

and, if you repent and then do it again, well... your just poop out of luck aint ya?

Not many can read these words of Christ (also found in the BOM... III Nephi 12) and live up to this higher law that He is trying to get us to live. But teaching it is not worth the try is the wrong approach if you are in the business of saving souls.

[RabbanahLlamacaptain of 50]

I just want to say thank you for all the thoughts on this thread and thank you for letting me share some of my experience. RabbanahLlama, I just have a question for you. I think I have some understanding on your thoughts but just have some sincere questions. Do you think members who have been rebaptized for this sin, should never be allowed rebaptism which is necessary to return to the Celestial Kingdom? Do you think once they have been rebaptized and repented with a complete and broken heart and turned to the Lord, that they are still not clean through the Atonement?
Do you think a person who has committed this sin has completely given themselves over to Satan and that there is absolutely no way back for them? Are you saying the Church is operating differently than God would have it operate by allowing rebaptism? or Priesthood blessings?
I know this isn't your intention but as gmetz stated, there may be those earnestly trying to repent who's hopes may be dashed and believe me when you're going through a repentance process of that severity, it doesn't take much to dash those hopes and give in to the lie that you are forever claimed by Satan (which Satan has worked so hard on me to believe time and time again.) but I do bear my testimony that my Savior has claimed my soul and he remembers this no more. How absolutely amazing is that? I testify and bear testimony of His Atonement for me and I am so thankful for his mercy and love that we can not even begin to comprehend. I'm truly hoping to be able to have my temple blessings restored soon and have worked for it with all of my heart. It is the most difficult and long way back and if you have any understanding what it takes to make it back, (literally going through hell and back) judgements would cease and those people would be welcomed back with love just as the Savior does. I only say this because of what I have experienced. You are free to your beliefs and I do respect those but for me personally to say that me or anyone else that has committed this sin has no chance at entering the Celestial Kingdom is for me to deny the Atonement made for me by the Savior and for anyone else that is truly repentant. Christ offers perfect hope and his promises to the truly repentant are that their sins are remembered no more. This is what I believe and know to be true and I hope for anyone struggling with a sin this severe they will turn to the Savior for deliverance. They do not have to be claimed by Satan. I am so thankful for the Atonement in my life and I need it every single day and so thankful that the Savior provided a way back for me.

Thank you for sharing your experience.

I do not see anything wrong with re-baptizing or giving the priesthood back to a truly repentant, humbled, individual who has committed adultery.

I am not saying they are not clean. When you are forgiven you are not immediately given back all the blessings you have lost. The prodigal son was forgiven and welcomed back into the family with open arms and given his status in the family back. But the faithful son still had everything and the prodigal son had nothing.

It takes a certain kind of person who can receive the priesthood, take out their endowment, get sealed in the temple and then commit adultery. I don't know how you can receive all that light, commit adultery, and then show the Lord you deserve the same blessings as those who were always faithful. To be forgiven is one thing, but to earn God's trust back is another. To sin against all that light Satan must have you hog tied and on the way to hell by then. Good people don't just wake up one day and go commit adultery. Satan began to stain their soul long before that. Good trees bring forth good fruit, bad trees bring forth bad fruit. Whether they realize it or not they can always be set free along the way, but once you use your agency to make a choice like committing adultery you'll have to live with the consequences of that choice.

It's unrealistic to assume that all these "repentant" adulterers in our Church are going to be given the same rewards as the Prophets and other holy men.

[gdemetzcaptain of 100]

Some of you guys are not believing me. That's OK, perhaps you will believe Brigham Young:

"The punishment of God is God like {"Wherefore, I the Lord, command AND REVOKE as it seemeth me good."} It endures forever {worlds without end}, because there will never be a time when people ought not to be damned, and there must always be a hell to send them to. How long the damned remain in hell, I know not, nor what degree of suffering they endure. If we could by any means compute how much wickedness they are guilty of, it might be possible to ascertain the amount of suffering they will receive. They will receive according as their deeds have been while in the body. God's punishment is eternal, BUT THAT DOES NOT PROVE THAT A WICKED PERSON WILL REMAIN IN A STATE OF PUNISHMENT {"NEVERTHELESS IT IS NOT WRITTEN THAT THERE SHALL BE NO END TO THIS TORMENT"}.

"You hear some of them preach and teach that which I have never taught; you hear them preach people into hell. Such doctrine never entered into my heart; but you hear others preach, that people will go there to dwell throughout the endless ages of eternity. SUCH PERSONS KNOW NO MORE ABOUT ETERNITY, AND ARE NO MORE CAPABLE OF INSTRUCTING OTHERS UPON THE SUBJECT THAN A LITTLE CHILD." Discourses of Brigham Young, page 383

As I stated before, the first presidency knows what they are doing when they give a 2nd or 3rd restoration of blessings to adulterers!

[RabbanahLlamacaptain of 50]

Some of you guys are not believing me. That's OK, perhaps you will believe Brigham Young:

"The punishment of God is God like {"Wherefore, I the Lord, command AND REVOKE as it seemeth me good."} It endures forever {worlds without end}, because there will never be a time when people ought not to be damned, and there must always be a hell to send them to. How long the damned remain in hell, I know not, nor what degree of suffering they endure. If we could by any means compute how much wickedness they are guilty of, it might be possible to ascertain the amount of suffering they will receive. They will receive according as their deeds have been while in the body. God's punishment is eternal, BUT THAT DOES NOT PROVE THAT A WICKED PERSON WILL REMAIN IN A STATE OF PUNISHMENT {"NEVERTHELESS IT IS NOT WRITTEN THAT THERE SHALL BE NO END TO THIS TORMENT"}.

"You hear some of them preach and teach that which I have never taught; you hear them preach people into hell. Such doctrine never entered into my heart; but you hear others preach, that people will go there to dwell throughout the endless ages of eternity. SUCH PERSONS KNOW NO MORE ABOUT ETERNITY, AND ARE NO MORE CAPABLE OF INSTRUCTING OTHERS UPON THE SUBJECT THAN A LITTLE CHILD." Discourses of Brigham Young, page 383

As I stated before, the first presidency knows what they are doing when they give a 2nd or 3rd restoration of blessings to adulterers!

"Wherefore, I the Lord, command AND REVOKE as it seemeth me good." this phrase of scripture is in the context of revoking and making commandments, not judgements.

Everyone who dies with sins that they have not repented of will have to suffer in spirit prison, which suffering is temporary unless you are a son of perdition.

At the final judgement most will be placed into a kingdom of glory where they will be happy for the rest of eternity, even if it is the Telestial Kingdom.

edit: It is my understanding God is the one who gives and restores blessings, not the first presidency.

[minganocaptain of 1,000]

I wouldn't count on making it to the Celestial Kingdom even after you repent of the first offense.

Doesn't this dilute the power of repentance? Seems to me that if this is accurate then nobody would have any incentive to even try.

[LukeAir2008captain of 1,000]

Another distorted, misguided thread.

The casting out of adulterers refers to excommunication from the Church. First strike - they can be forgiven. Second strike - they are to be excommunicated from the Church.

Nobody on this forum or in the Church or out of the Church qualifies through merit to inherit the Celestial Kingdom. Justice would dispatch every human being back to outer darkness and chaos as a naked intelligence - stripped of both a physical and spiritual body. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

Liars, blasphemers, sabbath breakers, thieves, drunkards, incontinent, unholy, perverts, deviants, fornicators...and adulterers - all have disqualified themselves from the Celestial Kingdom.

Mercy overpowers the demands of justice and enables the Judge to freely pardon those who have previously sinned against law - through an atoning sacrifice carried out by himself - on conditions laid down by himself. Those conditions involve sincere repentance - having a broken heart and contrite spirit - and being willing to submit to whatsoever the judge requires of you. You must receive those ordinances of salvation prescribed by the judge and you must continue on to the end in that same spirit of contrition and submission.

All manner of sins will be forgiven...except the shedding of innocent blood and the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost.

[HeirofNumenorthe Heir Of Numenor]

Another distorted, misguided thread.

The casting out of adulterers refers to excommunication from the Church. First strike - they can be forgiven. Second strike - they are to be excommunicated from the Church.

Nobody on this forum or in the Church or out of the Church qualifies through merit to inherit the Celestial Kingdom. Justice would dispatch every human being back to outer darkness and chaos as a naked intelligence - stripped of both a physical and spiritual body. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

Liars, blasphemers, sabbath breakers, thieves, drunkards, incontinent, unholy, perverts, deviants, fornicators...and adulterers - all have disqualified themselves from the Celestial Kingdom.

Mercy overpowers the demands of justice and enables the Judge to freely pardon those who have previously sinned against law - through an atoning sacrifice carried out by himself - on conditions laid down by himself. Those conditions involve sincere repentance - having a broken heart and contrite spirit - and being willing to submit to whatsoever the judge requires of you. You must receive those ordinances of salvation prescribed by the judge and you must continue on to the end in that same spirit of contrition and submission.

All manner of sins will be forgiven...except the shedding of innocent blood and the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost.

[RabbanahLlamacaptain of 50]

I wouldn't count on making it to the Celestial Kingdom even after you repent of the first offense.

Doesn't this dilute the power of repentance? Seems to me that if this is accurate then nobody would have any incentive to even try.

Not at all. We get to choose which kingdom we want to inherit by living the law it requires. This is how Lord will grant us the desires of our hearts. If we really desire to inherit the celestial kingdom we will live the law it requires. If we do not live up to that law it is our own fault, and we have no one else to blame but ourselves.

If anything this should inspire us to live better lives and endure to the end.

[RabbanahLlamacaptain of 50]

My comments are in red.

Another distorted, misguided thread. It is based off a quote by Joseph Smith. He wasn't misguided.

The casting out of adulterers refers to excommunication from the Church. First strike - they can be forgiven. Second strike - they are to be excommunicated from the Church. You need to read what Joseph Smith said again. He was talking about the Celestial Kingdom.

Nobody on this forum or in the Church or out of the Church qualifies through merit to inherit the Celestial Kingdom. Little children? They are worthy of the Celestial Kingdom. Justice would dispatch every human being back to outer darkness and chaos as a naked intelligence - stripped of both a physical and spiritual body. We all kept our first estate by coming to Earth, so we all will receive the blessings that come with that no matter what we do on Earth. Christ is not going back on His word when he promised all would be resurrected unconditionally. Even sons of perdition will be resurrected, and they will keep their resurrected bodies forever. No one is getting stripped back down to an intelligence. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

Liars, blasphemers, sabbath breakers, thieves, drunkards, incontinent, unholy, perverts, deviants, fornicators...and adulterers - all have disqualified themselves from the Celestial Kingdom. Some sins are more severe than others. Adultery and fornication are so severe because you're sinning against your own body.

Mercy overpowers the demands of justice and enables the Judge to freely pardon those who have previously sinned against law - through an atoning sacrifice carried out by himself - on conditions laid down by himself. Those conditions involve sincere repentance - having a broken heart and contrite spirit - and being willing to submit to whatsoever the judge requires of you. You must receive those ordinances of salvation prescribed by the judge and you must continue on to the end in that same spirit of contrition and submission.

All manner of sins will be forgiven...except the shedding of innocent blood and the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost. Being forgiven does not always mean you still have a reward waiting for you. Read the parable about the prodigal son again.

[LukeAir2008captain of 1,000]

Joseph Smith was referring to unrepentant adulterers. A man or woman who leaves this sphere as an adulterer cannot inherit the Celestial Kingdom. We are not talking about unrepentant adulterers. An unrepentant liar or thief or wife-beater will not inherit the Celestial Kingdom either!

Read the 'Three Most Abominable Sins' by Professor H. Dean Garrett.

http://rsc.byu.edu/archived/book-mormon ... nable-sins

[minganocaptain of 1,000]

Being forgiven does not always mean you still have a reward waiting for you. Read the parable about the prodigal son again.

And there is the answer in clear, plain, simple black and white. Forgiveness and the atonement are not infinite - at least now in the way that we understand the word "infinite". If you screw up badly enough there is no complete redemption. It makes things a tad confusing though, because the prodigal son has returned, but returned to what? He is cut off and gets nothing but a hug? What was the point in coming back then?

[awakecaptain of 100]

I wouldn't count on making it to the Celestial Kingdom even after you repent of the first offense.

Doesn't this dilute the power of repentance? Seems to me that if this is accurate then nobody would have any incentive to even try.

Not at all. We get to choose which kingdom we want to inherit by living the law it requires. This is how Lord will grant us the desires of our hearts. If we really desire to inherit the celestial kingdom we will live the law it requires. If we do not live up to that law it is our own fault, and we have no one else to blame but ourselves.

If anything this should inspire us to live better lives and endure to the end.

I think you may have missed his point. Those who have committed adultery would not be inspired to live better but to give up trying if they thought that they had lost all hope to make it to the Celestial Kingdom, because it's the Celestial reward that makes people strong enough to be willing to sacrifice, serve and work so hard to stay righteous, it's just too hard without the promise of reward, and anything less than the Celestial means you are going to be 'single' forever, a most devastating punishment, even if one lower kingdom is nicer than the other.

Also, I believe you are misinterpreting the "Prodical Son' story, who I believe symbolizes those who wasted 'this life' and never repented. We don't lose 'all our inheritance' like the Prodical did, unless we don't repent before we die, THEN we lose it all, but not until. Those who repent in this life and become valiant in the Gospel will still receive all of their inheritance in the next life.

The Prodical Son story is not talking about anyone losing their spiritual reward while still living. The prodical Son spent all his inherited 'money', thus why when he returned he had no right for more money. The 'money' is likened unto our life on earth, if we waste our time here in unrighteous living, without repenting, then we will have lost our inheritance.

Also, Joseph Smith and other Prophets have taught that valiant parents can save their unrighteous children to the Celestial Kingdom and on to Exaltation (who most of which were probably adulterous). So that teaching further shows that Joseph Smith didn't mean what you say he mean't, especially if those unrepentant adulterers had valiant parents who could help save them.

Bottom line is, Joseph said that 'adulterers' couldn't make it to the Celestial kingdom, one who has truly repented from such, isn't an 'adulterer' anymore. For they are as clean and pure as anyone else.

Also you say repented adulterers couldn't earn as much as the prophets, but they can, for they can not only repent from adultery but they can from then on live as valiantly and righteously and serve and sacrifice as much as any of the Prophets, and thus earn the same reward. Ever heard of 'Alma the Younger', who had been 'the most vilest of sinners' and most probably immoral, yet after his repentance and sacrifices he went on to be promised eternal life.

I believe your teachings are denying the hope and power of the Atonement of Jesus Christ.

[katmrcaptain of 100]

I was going to be done responding on this thread but I just wanted to thank you Awake for your post. I have been having a difficult time reconciling the parable of the prodigal son and the parable of the laborers in the vineyard and the wages. I had prayed to Heavenly Father that someone might be inspired to write something that would help bring me hope. I just wanted to say thank you because you were an answer to my prayers this morning and I do appreciate all posts on this thread but especially the ones that give a message of hope through the Atonement that all is not lost. I will always hold to the hope in Jesus Christ.

[awakecaptain of 100]

I was going to be done responding on this thread but I just wanted to thank you Awake for your post. I have been having a difficult time reconciling the parable of the prodigal son and the parable of the laborers in the vineyard and the wages. I had prayed to Heavenly Father that someone might be inspired to write something that would help bring me hope. I just wanted to say thank you because you were an answer to my prayers this morning and I do appreciate all posts on this thread but especially the ones that give a message of hope through the Atonement that all is not lost. I will always hold to the hope in Jesus Christ.

Thank you katmr, I'm so glad it helped. Christ never gives up on any of us, he always holds out hope to us, as long as we are still living, and maybe even afterwards. Christ's power to save is greater than any of us can imagine now.

[Raindropcaptain of 100]

. . . I have been having a difficult time reconciling the parable of the prodigal son and the parable of the laborers in the vineyard and the wages. . .

Matthew 20:1 For the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which went out early in the morning to hire labourers into his vineyard.

2 And when he had agreed with the labourers for a penny a day, he sent them into his vineyard.

3 And he went out about the third hour, and saw others standing idle in the marketplace,

4 And said unto them; Go ye also into the vineyard, and whatsoever is right I will give you. And they went their way.

5 Again he went out about the sixth and ninth hour, and did likewise.

6 And about the eleventh hour he went out, and found others standing idle, and saith unto them, Why stand ye here all the day idle?

7 They say unto him, Because no man hath hired us. He saith unto them, Go ye also into the vineyard; and whatsoever is right, that shall ye receive.

8 So when even was come, the lord of the vineyard saith unto his steward, Call the labourers, and give them their hire, beginning from the last unto the first.

9 And when they came that were hired about the eleventh hour, they received every man a penny.

10 But when the first came, they supposed that they should have received more; and they likewise received every man a penny.

11 And when they had received it, they murmured against the goodman of the house,

12 Saying, These last have wrought but one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, which have borne the burden and heat of the day.

13 But he answered one of them, and said, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a penny?

14 Take that thine is, and go thy way: I will give unto this last, even as unto thee.

15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good?

16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.


The householder is doing the hiring. This parable does not describe people joining the Church because that is something people search out and do for themselves. We are in control of whether we join the Church and the diligence and heed we give the commandments. Being hired throughout the day describes people receiving different callings in the Church, which we have no control over. At the end, we learn that one earthly calling is not "better rewarded" than any other calling. Having a high visible calling buys you absolutely nothing at the Bar of Judgment. You are not responsible for things outside your control. You will not be condemned for things outside your control. The faithful home teacher receives the same reward as the faithful apostle.

[awakecaptain of 100]

The householder is doing the hiring. This parable does not describe people joining the Church because that is something people search out and do for themselves. We are in control of whether we join the Church and the diligence and heed we give the commandments.

I have a different belief. I believe that the householder, Christ, has a say in whether he allows or 'hires' someone into his Church, even if the person 'asks' to be hired or allowed into the Church. We are all employed as Christ's servants once we join his Church and whether we repent and join at 8 or 108 we all receive the same pay or blessing in the next life, as long as we continue to repent as needed and strive to live valiant to the covenants we make when we join.

[gruden2.0captain of 100]

Joseph Fielding Smith Jr., Doctrines of Salvation, Vol.2, p.93
Now this revelation was given before the endowment was made known. Since that time when a man is married in the temple, he takes a solemn covenant before God, angels, and witnesses that he will keep the law of chastity. Then if he violates that covenant it is not easy to receive forgiveness. I call your attention to this statement by the Prophet Joseph Smith: "If a man commit adultery, he cannot receive the celestial kingdom of God. Even if he is saved in any kingdom, it cannot be the celestial kingdom."

That applies to those who have received their C&E, not to everyone. The atonement is not conditional or with a bunch of exceptions like tax laws. But if a person receives their C&E and THEN were to commit adultery - sinning against the Holy Ghost, they would no longer be eligible for those blessings.

Adultery is not to sin against the Holy Ghost. Once you have CEMS, if you commit adultery you are destroyed in the flesh, but still called up afterward. Shedding innocent blood is what gets the CEMS person the permanent boot, as it were.

I, for one, would like to know the source for the DoS quote. I looked through all my Joseph Smith books and could find no such comment.

[katmrcaptain of 100]

I was going to be done responding on this thread but I just wanted to thank you Awake for your post. I have been having a difficult time reconciling the parable of the prodigal son and the parable of the laborers in the vineyard and the wages. I had prayed to Heavenly Father that someone might be inspired to write something that would help bring me hope. I just wanted to say thank you because you were an answer to my prayers this morning and I do appreciate all posts on this thread but especially the ones that give a message of hope through the Atonement that all is not lost. I will always hold to the hope in Jesus Christ.

And thus did the Spirit of the Lord work upon them, for they were the very vilest of sinners. And the Lord saw fit in his infinite mercy to spare them; nevertheless they suffered much anguish of soul because of their iniquities, suffering much and fearing that they should be cast off forever.

hold to this then, and the Love of Christ

Thank you Brent.

[RabbanahLlamacaptain of 50]

Joseph Smith was not referring to unrepentant adulterers otherwise he would have included that in his bold statement.

Being forgiven does not always mean you still have a reward waiting for you. Read the parable about the prodigal son again.

And there is the answer in clear, plain, simple black and white. Forgiveness and the atonement are not infinite - at least now in the way that we understand the word "infinite". If you screw up badly enough there is no complete redemption. It makes things a tad confusing though, because the prodigal son has returned, but returned to what? He is cut off and gets nothing but a hug? What was the point in coming back then?

Forgiveness allows us to escape the suffering we would have had to endure for our sins. If you completely repent of adultery you won't have to suffer like Christ did for that sin. But you're eternal reward has been jeopardized. The prodigal son returned home to nothing. If he wanted anything he'd have to work for it. The point of coming back is to try to earn back what you can. Repent so you can live in the Terrestrial Kingdom instead of the Telestial Kingdom.

My comments are again in red.

I think you may have missed his point. Those who have committed adultery would not be inspired to live better but to give up trying if they thought that they had lost all hope to make it to the Celestial Kingdom, because it's the Celestial reward that makes people strong enough to be willing to sacrifice, serve and work so hard to stay righteous, it's just too hard without the promise of reward, and anything less than the Celestial means you are going to be 'single' forever, a most devastating punishment, even if one lower kingdom is nicer than the other. Too hard without a reward so give up? This is something Satan would want us to believe. Even though God has promised rewards to the faithful, He wants us to be intrinsically motivated, not extrinsically motivated. If we have to be compelled in all things we are slothful and unwise servants and receive no reward. We should be anxiously engaged in a good cause regardless of whats waiting on the other side. Consider all the people in the world that are living righteous lives who have no knowledge of the Gospel. They do not know what is waiting on the other side, but they are still living honorable lives.

Also, I believe you are misinterpreting the "Prodical Son' story, who I believe symbolizes those who wasted 'this life' and never repented. We don't lose 'all our inheritance' like the Prodical did, unless we don't repent before we die, THEN we lose it all, but not until. Those who repent in this life and become valiant in the Gospel will still receive all of their inheritance in the next life. You can believe what you choose. But in the parable the prodigal son wasted his life and what he could have had. He had nothing. Then he repented, and still had nothing. The always faithful son had everything. Read the parable.

The Prodical Son story is not talking about anyone losing their spiritual reward while still living. People earn their rewards in this life, not the next.The prodical Son spent all his inherited 'money', thus why when he returned he had no right for more money. The 'money' is likened unto our life on earth, if we waste our time here in unrighteous living, without repenting, then we will have lost our inheritance. Except the prodigal son did repent, and his inheritance was not renewed.

Also, Joseph Smith and other Prophets have taught that valiant parents can save their unrighteous children to the Celestial Kingdom and on to Exaltation (who most of which were probably adulterous). So that teaching further shows that Joseph Smith didn't mean what you say he mean't, especially if those unrepentant adulterers had valiant parents who could help save them. I said I agree with what Joseph Smith said. Adulterers have lost their chance to inherit the Celestial Kingdom. Others were throwing in what they thought Joseph Smith meant in an attempt to water down his bold remark. I meant the same thing Joseph Smith said nothing more, nothing less.

Bottom line is, Joseph said that 'adulterers' couldn't make it to the Celestial kingdom, one who has truly repented from such, isn't an 'adulterer' anymore. For they are as clean and pure as anyone else. Yes they are as clean and pure as anyone else after repenting, but their reward in heaven is not the same.

Also you say repented adulterers couldn't earn as much as the prophets, but they can, for they can not only repent from adultery but they can from then on live as valiantly and righteously and serve and sacrifice as much as any of the Prophets, and thus earn the same reward. You are entitled to that opinion. I will side with the Prophet Joseph Smith on the matter. Ever heard of 'Alma the Younger', who had been 'the most vilest of sinners' and most probably immoral, yet after his repentance and sacrifices he went on to be promised eternal life. No where does it imply Alma the Younger was an adulterer or even married. It isn't wise to accuse him of sexual sin to support your opinion.

I believe your teachings are denying the hope and power of the Atonement of Jesus Christ. My teachings? These are not my teachings, and they do not deny the Atonement. These teachings belong to Jesus Christ, the Prophets in the scriptures, and Joseph Smith. They don't deny the power of Atonement.

Here is the original Joseph Smith quote so anyone who would like to can read it in context. Taken from History of the Church Volume 6, page 81 if you would like to follow along.

Saturday, 25.--Colonel Frierson, United States Surveyor from Quincy,
arrived in Nauvoo. In the evening the High Council sat on the case of
Harrison Sagers, charged with seduction, and having stated that I had
taught right. Charge not sustained. I was present with several of the
Twelve, and gave an address tending to do away with every evil, and
exhorting them to practice virtue and holiness before the Lord; told them
that the Church had not received any permission from me to commit
fornication, adultery, or any corrupt action; but my every word and action
has been to the contrary. If a man commit adultery, he cannot receive the
celestial kingdom of God. Even if he is saved in any kingdom, it cannot be
the celestial kingdom. I did think that the many examples that have been
made manifest, such as John C. Bennett's and others, were sufficient to
show the fallacy of such a course of conduct.

I condemned such actions in total, and warned the people present
against committing such evils; for it will surely bring a curse upon any
person who commits such deeds.

After adjournment, held a council, and agreed to meet Mr. Frierson
at the Mansion tomorrow morning.

[minganocaptain of 1,000]

Forgiveness allows us to escape the suffering we would have had to endure for our sins. If you completely repent of adultery you won't have to suffer like Christ did for that sin. But you're eternal reward has been jeopardized. The prodigal son returned home to nothing. If he wanted anything he'd have to work for it. The point of coming back is to try to earn back what you can. Repent so you can live in the Terrestrial Kingdom instead of the Telestial Kingdom.

Why would you want to? What is significantly better about the terrestrial kingdom that makes it so much better than the telestial? And for that matter, why isn't non-existence an option? What if you don't even want to stay in the telestial forever? I for one would rather cease to exist than remain in the telestial.

Even though God has promised rewards to the faithful, He wants us to be intrinsically motivated, not extrinsically motivated.

If this were entirely true then we would be given more information about what it means that something is the right thing to do - including why such things are the right things to do - instead of focusing on reward v punishment. But we aren't taught anything about why good is good and bad is bad, we are just given a few examples of each and the teaching that it is impossible to not be bad - more ways than can be counted to sin - while apparently there aren't more ways than can be counted to do good.

But in the parable the prodigal son wasted his life and what he could have had. He had nothing. Then he repented, and still had nothing. The always faithful son had everything. Read the parable.

I did, and I find it hard to argue with you. You are claiming that repentance cannot be complete and cannot cover all things. Since this is the case why not just come out and tell everybody instead of allowing them to live a lifetime hoping for something that is impossible? If I were in that situation I'd simply leave the church and never return because it wouldn't have a single thing to offer me other than 2nd or 3rd class status.

Except the prodigal son did repent, and his inheritance was not renewed.

Exactly. So what is the point of even trying to return? We never hear about how the prodigal son's relationship with his brother was. We never heard about how, after the father died and the prodigal son found himself shunned by his brother so he went back into the world. When he left he was no longer a full member of that family but became just another anonymous commoner.

But for that matter, the prodigal son story isn't quite accurate when compared to what we know: in the real universe God will never hug his prodigal children upon return because he cannot have contact with anything that is even slightly tainted with sin. If you aren't destined for the CK then you will never, ever be able to hug your eternal father. In the story of the prodigal son the fallen one is also allowed to live with the family. This will never happen - if you aren't in the CK then for all intents and purposes isn't God dead to you? You can ever interact with him, see him, hear his voice... you would certainly never be allowed to stay in his house.

[gruden2.0captain of 100]

I have been having a difficult time reconciling the parable of the prodigal son and the parable of the laborers in the vineyard and the wages.

Katmr,
At first thought I didn't see any connection between the two, then on second thought I wanted to ask you if you considered the case of Amulek from the Book of Mormon.

Amulek was an apostate amongst apostates in the city of Ammoniah (Alma 8). In Alma 10:6 he makes his public confession, that he was wicked, had rebelled against God and hardened his heart. God had called after him, but he had refused, and remained separate from God. When an angel appeared to him, Amulek responded. It's important to point out this miracle happened on the account of Alma exercising his faith through fasting and prayer (8:26).

Alma remained at Amulek's house for a number of days and taught him, thus re-activating him in today's parlance. In Alma 8:29 the Lord refers to Amulek as his servant and was called to preach.

So, in the case of Amulek, we see a man estranged of God and immersed in wickedness and the ways of the world, but he is open enough to hear the words of a servant of God and is thus brought back, and afterward called to tarry in the vineyard. In many ways, as someone pointed out above, this same cycle was seen in Alma himself, as well as the sons of Mosiah. That's why instead of judging people who leave the church as tares, we should be praying for them. The whole work Alma was doing in Ammoniah was to reclaim people who had had the truth and went wayward. So we see God Himself is very active in bringing back wayward sheep and putting them to work.

The parable of the Prodigal son is interesting in and of itself, and upon thinking about it, encompasses the workers parable as well. There is deep and profound truth in this parable that applies to us all. I will borrow from the thought of another author who, for the life of me, I can't remember and I'm sure he said it better than I, but he had some interesting insights.

The Prodigal Son covers all those who have become estranged from God. We can say it applies to the Fall, as we live in a telestial world separated from Him and needing to work our way back. It can also apply to those who have sinned and realize the need to work their way back.

When the prodigal son returns, it is of import to note that what the Father does in slaying the fatted calf is ritualistic - the return to sonhood is accompanied by a ritual. The ritual is the shedding of blood, and what does that symbolize? We should all know the answer to that question. However, the 'good son' failed to see that, which is why his father was puzzled in his response, when he tells him that he still has his sonship, so no slaying of the calf was needed.

Importantly, this does not imply that the prodigal son would have no inheritance now that he had returned. The prodigal offered to come back as a hired servant, but the father would have none of that. He would indeed return to work on his father's estate, but it would be as a son, not a hired servant. He had regained his elevated status.

As for the adultery question, JFS and the OP take a very hard, unforgiving stance, which I really don't understand. I don't even know why this was posted in the first place. As I stated above, I can't find any quote in the books I have of Joseph saying that a repentant person who had committed adultery was out of the running for the celestial kingdom. If someone can find that I'd be happy to see that.

What I can find is what is stated in D&C 132:26:

Verily, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife according to my word, and they are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, according to mine appointment, and he or she shall commit any sin or transgression of the new and everlasting covenant whatever, and all manner of blasphemies, and if they commit no murder wherein they shed innocent blood, yet they shall come forth in the first resurrection, and enter into their exaltation; but they shall be destroyed in the flesh, and shall be delivered unto the buffetings of Satan unto the day of redemption, saith the Lord God.

This addresses people whose sealing is ratified by the Holy Spirit of promise. Thus it applies to the most spiritually advanced couple, and even here it says that if they commit the most horrid sins, they will still have their exaltation after being buffeted by Satan. The most severe penalties apply to those who commit sins with the greatest awareness of what they're doing. It does not say they will be denied celestial glory. The ONLY thing that can permanently disqualify someone from exaltation is to shed innocent blood, as stated in the verse.

Murdering innocents will permanently strike someone from any hope of celestial glory. Every other sin can be repented of and forgiven completely. For the life of me I can't understand why some people are so eager to disclude others. Repent and live righteously, and God will make you His son or daughter.

[awakecaptain of 100]

My comments are in blue:

Joseph Smith was not referring to unrepentant adulterers otherwise he would have included that in his bold statement.

I don't want to keep going back and forth with you, but I again disagree here because Joseph at other times gave bold statements without all the vital clarifications.

For Joseph gave us the Book of Mormon and he knew that there were almost surely adulterous men in it, Alma, Alma the Younger, and the 4 Sons of Mosiah, who were all the vilest of sinners, Alma probably having lived whoredoms like polygamy with King Noah and the other Priests) YET, they all were later promised 'eternal life' because of their repentance and valiant righteousness. They became Prophets and held the holy priesthood of God and were every bit as worthy of Exaltation as any other prophet.

That is proof that Joseph believed that repentant adulterers could make it to CK. For if not, that would mean Joseph preached contrary to the scriptures and he knew he couldn't do that. When men are the vilest of sinners it's practically unheard of if they don't also commit immorality. And even if some were unmarried, the scripture dictionary and the scripture explanations say that the word 'adultery' is used in the scriptures to mean immoral behavior between both married and also sometimes unmarried people.

Plus, as we see in the scriptures I posted below, even fornication is on the level of adultery in the scriptures. So the punishment seems to be the same.

Everything that Joseph taught had to be in harmony with the scriptures, which that statement is not, if taken as you believe.

Being forgiven does not always mean you still have a reward waiting for you. Read the parable about the prodigal son again.

When a person repents, like Alma, their eternal rewards are restored back to them. The Prodigal son is not an example of a 'repented' person on this earth, for we don't lose our whole inheritance unless we don't repent in this life. Again, the scriptures teach that repentant adulterers can gain the CK and eternal life.

Except the prodigal son did repent, and his inheritance was not renewed.

That's because the P. Son was representing us in the next life, when it's too late to earn our salvation if we didn't repent before we died.

Bottom line is, Joseph said that 'adulterers' couldn't make it to the Celestial kingdom, one who has truly repented from such, isn't an 'adulterer' anymore. For they are as clean and pure as anyone else. Yes they are as clean and pure as anyone else after repenting, but their reward in heaven is not the same.

Again, Alma, a member of the Church who almost surely committed whoredoms and adultery, repented and was promised the same reward as all the other holy prophets.

You are entitled to that opinion. I will side with the Prophet Joseph Smith on the matter. No where does it imply Alma the Younger was an adulterer or even married. It isn't wise to accuse him of sexual sin to support your opinion.

It would be so rare, if even possible, for a man to be called the vilest of sinners and 'not' be immoral in some way too.

I also side with Joseph Smith and the scriptures he published, which trump that statement in the 'History of the Church' which we don't even know for sure he wrote. But we do know he published the BoM and that repentant adulterers like Alma and others could gain eternal life.

I believe your teachings are denying the hope and power of the Atonement of Jesus Christ. My teachings? These are not my teachings, and they do not deny the Atonement. These teachings belong to Jesus Christ, the Prophets in the scriptures, and Joseph Smith. They don't deny the power of Atonement.

Yes, I believe they are 'your' teachings, for they are contrary to what Joseph taught us in the scriptures. You have a contrary opinion of his statement that he didn't take time to clarify.

Here is the original Joseph Smith quote so anyone who would like to can read it in context. Taken from History of the Church Volume 6, page 81 if you would like to follow along.

Saturday, 25.--Colonel Frierson, United States Surveyor from Quincy,
arrived in Nauvoo. In the evening the High Council sat on the case of
Harrison Sagers, charged with seduction, and having stated that I had
taught right. Charge not sustained. I was present with several of the
Twelve, and gave an address tending to do away with every evil, and
exhorting them to practice virtue and holiness before the Lord; told them
that the Church had not received any permission from me to commit
fornication, adultery, or any corrupt action; but my every word and action
has been to the contrary. If a man commit adultery, he cannot receive the
celestial kingdom of God. Even if he is saved in any kingdom, it cannot be
the celestial kingdom. I did think that the many examples that have been
made manifest, such as John C. Bennett's and others, were sufficient to
show the fallacy of such a course of conduct.

I condemned such actions in total, and warned the people present
against committing such evils; for it will surely bring a curse upon any
person who commits such deeds.

After adjournment, held a council, and agreed to meet Mr. Frierson
at the Mansion tomorrow morning.

Joseph was talking about the immorality of polygamy in that quote and was probably very frustrated that it was such a continual and rampant scourge among the Church members. So he most likely wanted the people to realize how serious adultery was and so he emphasized that, and left out that it was possible to repent from it, for he probably didn't want to put it in anyone's mind to sin and repent later.

Thus, you're teaching is not supported by scripture and you have just based your opinion on an unproven statement that is supposedly from Joseph, which we don't know if it's even a true or complete statement, for we know that the 'History of the Church' was edited alot after Joseph died.

If what you say is true than not even Abraham or Jacob will make it to the CK, for according to Joseph's teachings, which you say you take seriously, they would have committed adultery too by living polygamy, (for Joseph repeatedly taught that polygamy was adultery) not to mention many modern prophets that came after Joseph.

And then there is the fact that Christ said divorce and remarriage was adultery too, unless it was in the case of fornication. So that would mean that Brigham Young and other prophets who were divorced couldn't make it either, nor most all the divorced people in the Church.

Also, if what you say is true than why does the Church today allow men to remarry and be sealed to women they committed adultery with by having had an affair with that caused the destruction of their 1st marriage? Such men often abandon their 1st wife and go marry their adulteress, and later get back in the Church and remarry in the temple for eternity. The Church promises such couples in the temple that they will have an eternal marriage? What you are saying is these couples are being lied to and deceived in the temple when they go to remarry. I have personal knowledge of many of these incidences so I know it happens and probably a lot.

1 Cor. 6:9-11
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Gal. 5:
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

D&C 63: Joseph Smith wrote this.
14 There were among you adulterers and adulteresses; some of whom have turned away from you, and others remain with you that hereafter shall be revealed.
15 Let such beware and repent speedily, lest judgment shall come upon them as a snare, and their folly shall be made manifest, and their works shall follow them in the eyes of the people.
16 And verily I say unto you, as I have said before, he that looketh on a woman to lust after her, or if any shall commit adultery in their hearts, they shall not have the Spirit, but shall deny the faith and shall fear.
17 Wherefore, I, the Lord, have said that the fearful, and the unbelieving, and all liars, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie, and the whoremonger, and the sorcerer, shall have their part in that lake which burneth with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.
18 Verily I say, that they shall not have part in the first resurrection.
19 And now behold, I, the Lord, say unto you that ye are not justified, because these things are among you.
20 Nevertheless, he that endureth in faith and doeth my will, the same shall overcome, and shall receive an inheritance upon the earth when the day of transfiguration shall come;

If you believe what the Church teaches, that Joseph lied to the Church his whole life about polygamy, then you must believe from these scriptures that even Joseph says he won't be receiving Eternal life, for these scriptures say that liars get the same punishment as adulterers. But of course I believe that both liars and adulterers can repent and receive eternal life.

[b][color=#0040FF]And these scriptures not only say 'adulterers' can't enter the Kindom of God (CK) or be part of the 1st Resurrection, but also drunkards, sorcerers, the covetous, revilers, haters, strife, envyers, etc. cannot make it either if adulterers can't. Unless of course they repent as these scriptures warn them to, before they die and then I believe they can go to the Kingdom of God, meaning the CK. For we know these scriptures were not referring to the Terr. or Tel. Kingdoms, for we know these sinners will at least get to go to the Telestial. Thus these scriptures mean such sinners can't go to the Cel. Kingdom, unless they repent.

And last but not least, Joseph himself preached to women and men to not leave their 'unbelieving' spouses (who didn't live the Gospel and thus many were probably adulterous, as many spouses in the Church today are), because they might be able to help save them. Why would he ever tell them to stay with a spouse who couldn't ever make it, even if they did repent??? That would not be fair to the righteous spouse or even possible, for to endure an unrighteous spouse takes a big incentive, for who is perfect enough to do it for nothing.

And even most all non-members who live righteously do believe in God and have a hope of going to heaven, and that's why and where they get the strength to be good. For most people in most religions believe in the basic 10 commandments if they are righteous. So yes, I believe we need a reward to give us incentive to shoot for, whether we are members or not. I have never known anyone who was strong enough to be righteous for nothing.[/color][/b]

[gdemetzcaptain of 100]

What is wrong Raban? Was not D&C 19 and Brigham Young's statement clear enough for you? D&C 19 clearly states that EVERLASTING PUNISHMENT DOES NOT MEAN THAT IT HAS NO END! Also, Brigham Young clearly stated in support of this that people who think like that are no more capable of teaching someone than a little child! James Talmadge has also stated that there is a door or gate going into hell, and also a door or gate leading out of hell. God is totally just, and that is what Brigham Young meant when he stated that God's judgments are God like. They would not be just or God like if a person totally repented, had paid a total price for all of his sins, and yet God would say too bad , you're just too late?! You can believe what you wish are try to state that something meant something else if you want, but as for me, I will believe D&C 19, Brigham Young, and James Talmadge over you.

[RabbanahLlamacaptain of 50]

Mingano,

In the Grand Council in the pre-existence, Christ said some souls would be not be saved. Everyone knew what they we're getting themselves into by coming to Earth. God doesn't need to give us anymore information than we have. We shouldn't, in a sense, hold God hostage to our feeble intelligence and refuse to act because we aren't sure. Have some faith. Even the Telestial Kingdom surpasses all mortal understanding. I am not claiming anything for myself, I am only passing along the message from the scriptures and the Prophets.

Awake,

You cannot prove anything Joseph Smith taught or didn't teach based on the assumption that Alma the Younger and the Sons of Mosiah were adulterers. You have nothing to back that up with except what you think. Being the vilest of sinners doesn't not mean they had to be adulterers. Virgins fighting against the Kingdom of God as hard as they were could be considered the vilest of sinners. I can think of a lot of things you could do to be considered one of the vilest of sinners without being an adulterer.

The context of the quote made by Joseph Smith was adultery after you have been married. Harrison Sagers deserted his wife to practice unauthorized polygamy. And you do know that every section in the D&C (except 138) is taken directly out of the History of the Church? If you want to throw out it's validity you might as well throw out the entire D&C as well. And editing? You know the Book of Mormon has been edited several times too, right?

I take Joseph Smith's statement the way he said it. You can take it differently, that's your choice. You can't say I have a contrary opinion when I believe he meant exactly what he said. But I could say you have a contrary opinion for not believing exactly what he said.

I don't think there is anything wrong with authorized polygamy. We learn Abraham and Jacob were blessed for being obedient to this commandment in the revelation received through Joseph Smith in D&C 132 (or History of the Church, Volume 5, pg. 501-507).

You make so many assumptions about my opinions and some of the scriptures that most of your argument is not valid. I choose to accept this view and am backed by scripture, Joseph Smith, and Joseph Fielding Smith Jr., and you can to choose to reject it. To be honest I don't really care if you agree with me or not. I'm not here looking for the acclamation of others. Just to discuss doctrine and principles of the Gospel.

Gdemetz,

You are misinterpreting my view. I do not believe repentant adulterers will have to go through any punishment. If they fully repent they will not have to suffer temporarily in spirit prison for this sin. I do believe an adulterer's reward will be less than the reward of the faithful who never committed adultery. But they are still receiving a reward. Living in the terrestrial kingdom or the telestial kingdom is not a punishment, it is a reward. Their glory surpasses all understanding. We are all rewarded according to our works, and some rewards are better than others.

To all,

Remember - "We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may." There is nothing wrong with a little debate but there is no need for contention.

[awakecaptain of 100]

Awake,

You cannot prove anything Joseph Smith taught or didn't teach based on the assumption that Alma the Younger and the Sons of Mosiah were adulterers. You have nothing to back that up with except what you think. Being the vilest of sinners doesn't not mean they had to be adulterers. Virgins fighting against the Kingdom of God as hard as they were could be considered the vilest of sinners. I can think of a lot of things you could do to be considered one of the vilest of sinners without being an adulterer.

You left out Alma the strongest proof of all, who the scriptures say those Priests of King Noah were committing whoredoms with polygamy and their concubines, etc.

The context of the quote made by Joseph Smith was adultery after you have been married. Harrison Sagers deserted his wife to practice unauthorized polygamy. And you do know that every section in the D&C (except 138) is taken directly out of the History of the Church? If you want to throw out it's validity you might as well throw out the entire D&C as well. And editing? You know the Book of Mormon has been edited several times too, right?

Joseph taught that all polygamy in his day, or ever, was unauthorized and adultery. There is proof and photos of the earlier editions D&C and Book of Mormon from Joseph's day that can be had from other sources other than the 'History of the Church'.

I don't think there is anything wrong with authorized polygamy. We learn Abraham and Jacob were blessed for being obedient to this commandment in the revelation received through Joseph Smith in D&C 132 (or History of the Church, Volume 5, pg. 501-507).

You seem to pick and choose what you want to believe among Joseph's 'proven' statements. For there is no proof that he received D&C 132, but there is proof he gave us and signed his name to Jacob 2 in the Book of Mormon, which condemns all polygamy in any age of time, not to mention his numerous scriptures and quotes where he condemned polygamy as adultery in every case and said he never preached, practiced or authorized it for anyone, nor could he ever do so and remain a true prophet, for it goes completely against the scriptures. So it appears you don't believe much of what Joseph said. But that is your prerogative. We will just have to agree to disagree then.

[gdemetzcaptain of 100]

Please let me explain something to you Awake, as it seems to me that you are lacking much knowledge here! During King Noah's time, just as today, polygamy was prohibited. That's why they were condemned!

[awakecaptain of 100]

Please let me explain something to you Awake, as it seems to me that you are lacking much knowledge here! During King Noah's time, just as today, polygamy was prohibited. That's why they were condemned!

Yes, I understand that polygamy was prohibited during King Noah's time, as it always has been prohibited throughout the history of the world, that's why I said Alma most surely committed adultery by living it, like the other Priests of King Noah's did.

[gdemetzcaptain of 100]

The law of polygamy was given to Joseph as well as many other prophets! Try rereading D&C 132 for starters!!! Also, did you read the quote I gave you from Brigham Young?!?