Identifying and NOT supporting latter-day Gadiantons

[BroJones]

I have often referred to Ether 8 and President Hinckley's First Presidency message (Aug 2005 Ensign) in the same context -- both GREAT admonitions from the Lord!

The Book of Mormon narrative is a chronicle of nations long since gone. But in its descriptions of the problems of today’s society, it is as current as the morning newspaper and much more definitive, inspired, and inspiring concerning the solutions of those problems.

I know of no other writing which sets forth with such clarity the tragic consequences to societies that follow courses contrary to the commandments of God. Its pages trace the stories of two distinct civilizations that flourished on the Western Hemisphere. Each began as a small nation, its people walking in the fear of the Lord. But with prosperity came growing evils. The people succumbed to the wiles of ambitious and scheming leaders who oppressed them with burdensome taxes, who lulled them with hollow promises, who countenanced and even encouraged loose and lascivious living. These evil schemers led the people into terrible wars that resulted in the death of millions and the final and total extinction of two great civilizations in two different eras.[/size]

No other written testament so clearly illustrates the fact that when men and nations walk in the fear of God and in obedience to His commandments, they prosper and grow, but when they disregard Him and His word, there comes a decay that, unless arrested by righteousness, leads to impotence and death. The Book of Mormon is an affirmation of the Old Testament proverb: “Righteousness exalteth a nation: but sin is a reproach to any people” (Prov. 14:34).

The God of heaven spoke to these people of the Americas through prophets, telling them where true security could be found: “Behold, this is a choice land, and whatsoever nation shall possess it shall be free from bondage, and from captivity, and from all other nations under heaven, if they will but serve the God of the land, who is Jesus Christ” (Ether 2:12).

While the Book of Mormon speaks with power to the issues that affect our modern society, the great and stirring burden of its message is a testimony, vibrant and true, that Jesus is the Christ, the promised Messiah...

President Hinckley gave us FOUR KEYS to identifying the "evil schemers" - did you catch this? We'll return to this; but pls look for yourself NOW.

Moroni urges us to "awaken to your awful situation" and tells of the two civilizations destroyed by secret combinations aka Gadiantons aka "evil schemers":
Ether 8:

18 And it came to pass that they formed a secret combination, even as they of old; which combination is most abominable and wicked above all, in the sight of God; ...
21 And they have caused the destruction of this people of whom I am now speaking [Jaredites], and also the destruction of the people of Nephi.

-- NOTE this is just what Pres. Hinckley referred to when he said of the "evil schemers",

"evil schemers led the people into terrible wars that resulted in the death of millions and the final and total extinction of two great civilizations in two different eras"

Reads "like the morning newspaper", doesn't it? President Hinckley was right! Then he added with emphasis that made my hairs stand on end at the following April 2006 General Conference, using the same terminology:

We are involved in terrible wars with lives lost and many crippling wounds.

Back to Moroni's warning, given to "us in our generation" (said Pres. Packer, quoting from Ether 8, see Ensign Aug 2010):

Ether 8: 23 Wherefore, O ye Gentiles, it is wisdom in God that these things should be shown unto you, that thereby ye may repent of your sins, and suffer not that these murderous combinations shall get above you, which are built up to get power and gain—and the work, yea, even the work of destruction come upon you, yea, even the sword of the justice of the Eternal God shall fall upon you, to your overthrow and destruction if ye shall suffer these things to be.

24 Wherefore, the Lord commandeth you, when ye shall see these things come among you that ye shall awake to a sense of your awful situation, because of this secret combination which shall be among you; or wo be unto it, because of the blood of them who have been slain; for they cry from the dust for vengeance upon it, and also upon those who built it up.

Note especially that there is a "wo" pronounced - not just on the "secret combination" -- but

and also upon those who built it up

Catch that? is that you and me?

We could also refer to Helaman chapter 6 and 7, where Nephi warns that the Gadiantons had obtained "sole management of the government" and the Nephites needed to AWAKEN to their "awful" situation and NOT SUPPORT the Gadiantons who were in fact "evil schemers".

Now President Benson:

"Now undoubtedly Moroni could have pointed out many factors that led to the destruction of the people, but notice how he singled out the secret combinations... There is no conspiracy theory in the Book of Mormon—it is a conspiracy fact." (Conference Report, April 1972, Ensign, July 1972, p. 60; as quoted in God, Family, Country, pp. 321-322.)

As President of the LDS Church:

And our nation will continue to degenerate unless we read and heed the words of the God of this land, Jesus Christ, and quit building up and upholding the secret combinations which the Book of Mormon tells us proved the downfall of both previous American civilizations.” (Ezra Taft Benson, A Witness and a Warning: A Modern-Day Prophet Testifies of the Book of Mormon, p. 80. January 1988.)

OK, that's important now. We must "quit building up and upholding" these "evil schemers", the latter-day Gadiantons.

Well said! I love these great Prophets and their succinct warnings to US.
Now to the important task of identifying the Gadiantons, and taking steps to stop "building up and upholding" these evil schemers!

[sonofliberty]

Excellent post Dr. Jones! I have read all of those before, but really appreciate you putting it all together like that. We certainly need to awaken to our awful situation and start identifying the modern day Gadiantons.

[BroJones]

In two sentences (cited in my previous post), President Hinckely identifies these "scheming leaders" who we are enjoined NOT to support!

The people succumbed to the wiles of ambitious and scheming leaders who oppressed them with burdensome taxes, who lulled them with hollow promises, who countenanced and even encouraged loose and lascivious living. These evil schemers led the people into terrible wars that resulted in the death of millions and the final and total extinction of two great civilizations in two different eras.

So we can clearly see who are these "evil schemers", these latter-day Gadiantons. These are:

1. ambitious and scheming leaders who oppressed them with burdensome taxes,
2. who lulled them with hollow promises,
3. who countenanced and even encouraged loose and lascivious living.
4. These evil schemers led the people into terrible wars...

And then in the next-April General Conference, he noted that "WE are involved in terrible wars."

OK -- I hope you can see this!

It is NOT really Al Qaeda or radical Muslims who oppress us "with burdensome taxes," is it?

Who is it that "lulls [us] with hollow promises"? You mean like "CHANGE"?

Hmmm... would that be the Italian mafia? don't think so.

Wow, "even encouraged loose and lascivious living" -- you mean like promoting homosexual relations/marriage as VP Dick Cheney and now Pres. Obama are doing? There are numerous other examples amongst our "ambitious and scheming leaders" -- and its not just Democrats!

And who is it that led us into these "terrible wars"?

We are involved in terrible wars with lives lost and many crippling wounds. -- Pres. Hinckley, April 2006 General Conference!

You tell me. Is he talking about Muslims here, or our OWN GUYS AT THE TOP?

37 And it came to pass that the Lamanites did hunt the band of robbers of Gadianton; and they did preach the word of God among the more wicked part of them, insomuch that this band of robbers was utterly destroyed from among the Lamanites.

38 And it came to pass on the other hand, that the Nephites did build them up and support them, beginning at the more wicked part of them, until they had overspread all the land of the Nephites, and had seduced the more part of the righteous until they had come down to believe in their works and partake of their spoils, and to join with them in their secret murders and combinations.

39 And thus they did obtain the sole management of the government, insomuch that they did trample under their feet and smite and rend and turn their backs upon the poor and the meek, and the humble followers of God.

40 And thus we see that they were in an awful state, and ripening for an everlasting destruction.

Next, how do we stop supporting the latter-day Gadiantons?

[InfoWarrior82]

Dr Jones.... are you suuuure these scheming leaders aren't Al Qaeda? )

Loran Blood? Bluemoon5?

[BroJones]

Thanks for the comments, guys.

Now -- we see that the Latter-day Prophets indeed warn us about these "scheming leaders", these latter-day Gadiantons. And warn us to NOT build them up:

quit building up and upholding the secret combinations"
-- President Benson, April 1988, also Moroni in Ether chapter 8

So what have the Prophets counseled us?

1. GET OUT OF DEBT! the Prophets have counseled this for a LONG TIME!

Yes, I truly believe that this one step will do much to stop feeding the Gadiantons. They thrive on getting as many people into DEBT as they can, both for control and for taking usury.
The universities are not innocent in this scheming game IMO -- they encourage students to take out supposedly-innocent student loans. Then the students come out burdened with DEBTS and they join the system of working to pay off those debts, at interest, while they are encouraged to acquire fresh debts for furniture, cars, etc.
I could on... let me just say that a relative who is a high-paid doctor JUST THIS YEAR FINALLY PAID OFF HIS DEBTS, including medical school debts. He is 57 years old! He was so happy to finally pay off his debts... especially as he is awakening the Gadianton debt-slavery scheme. (I've been talking to him.)

2. AVOID UNNECESSARY "BURDENSOME TAXES", while still paying appropriate taxes.
So how do we do both? Earn less taxable income; e.g., grow your own garden. And get as independent of the Gadianton system as possible --

3. GROW YOUR OWN GARDENS.
How many times have we heard that from the Prophets? Like, President Kimball?

4. ACQUIRE FOOD STORAGE and "prepare every needful thing" (Church pamphlet)


NOTE: I'M JUST TRYING TO EMPHASIZE WHAT THE PROPHETS HAVE SAID and encourage people to wake up and stop feeding the evil schemers!! Nothing new here, really, but some people don't seem to sense the importance of these things. Perhaps they are lulled by the "hollow promises" of the "evil schemers"? Hmmm...


How many among us have gotten out of debt? or consider this a priority and are working hard towards this? 15% of LDS, maybe?
How many have a year's supply of essentials? Maybe 15%?

'nuff said. The Prophets have NOT BEEN SILENT! I have a feeling that if we would HEED the above counsels, including "awakening to our awful situation" in the first place, then we would merit FURTHER INSTRUCTION from the Lord... Leading up to the New Jerusalem!

[uglypitbull]

Golden post Dr. Jones! :ymapplause:

[BroJones]

Thanks, UPB. I've been thinking about this for a while.

Note the run on Greek banks today -- as people awaken. The Gadianton debt-slavery scheme has been applied to countries as well as to individuals.

I have almost no money in banks... Of course, I don't have much earnings these days...

[uglypitbull]

Thanks, UPB. I've been thinking about this for a while.

Note the run on Greek banks today -- as people awaken. The Gadianton debt-slavery scheme has been applied to countries as well as to individuals.

I have almost no money in banks... Of course, I don't have much earnings these days...

Agreed, but they should be converting that money into tangible goods with real value asap.

Hey, if you don't have any debt...you don't NEED a lot of money right? Unless the government raises taxes to an insane level (which I think will be forthcoming via the Health Care Bill.

If the states had any understanding of the Constitution, they would get together and repeal the 17th amendment. All states know this health care bill will bankrupt them but they want to take it to court on a technicality and spend more funds fighting it there when they could have had a representative Senate vote it down in the first place. The Senate used to represent the states and the House represented the people....there was balance. Now the Senate and the House represent the corporate lobbyists and the federal government.
Just by doing this one thing, they would deliver a blow to the Gads power structure...not to mention setting in motion the repeal of the other liberty damaging amendments. (13-27)

[mchlwise]

EXCELLENT discussion, Dr. Jones.

None of it is new or any surprise to me, but seeing it all laid out scripturally and prophetically like that is sobering none-the-less.

[AGStacker]

Pretty much on the program minus the debt. Just married, 26, and just bought a home. Didn't really want to but the wife insisted. Ultimately though we are paying less owning then renting and we didn't buy anything fancy. Just something comfortable and safe.

Our monthly debt obligations are sickening to me but they are going down every month. Our fixed debt: rent, no car payments, water, etc are rather small. It is some student debts and other loans that entail most of our obligations each month. Thankfully, once again, they are getting lower and lower every month.

I wish I was 50 years old as opposed to 26. Feel like I haven't had enough time to prepare. I'm doing what I can. Lord have mercy.

I agree with everything you've posted Dr. Jones.

FYI, holding some physical silver will allow one to pay off mostly all of their debts and some if they are positioned right. I plan on accumulating wealth during the rough times ahead.

[Jason]

Pretty much on the program minus the debt. Just married, 26, and just bought a home. Didn't really want to but the wife insisted. Ultimately though we are paying less owning then renting and we didn't buy anything fancy. Just something comfortable and safe.

Our monthly debt obligations are sickening to me but they are going down every month. Our fixed debt: rent, no car payments, water, etc are rather small. It is some student debts and other loans that entail most of our obligations each month. Thankfully, once again, they are getting lower and lower every month.

I wish I was 50 years old as opposed to 26. Feel like I haven't had enough time to prepare. I'm doing what I can. Lord have mercy.

I agree with everything you've posted Dr. Jones.

FYI, holding some physical silver will allow one to pay off mostly all of their debts and some if they are positioned right. I plan on accumulating wealth during the rough times ahead.

Just my guess but I think you'll be much more rewarded by paying off debt (a given interest rate) rather than speculating in silver (unknown risk).

[BroJones]

Thanks all for comments.
AGStacker:

It is some student debts and other loans that entail most of our obligations each month.

You see how the college-debt really is part of the debt-slavery scheme.

Getting out of debt -- and I recall the LDS pamphlet on preparedness also advises us to have cash on hand.

The run on banks in Greece is front-page news today at msnbc.com.

Romney vs National Debt rise is also notable news... but does he apply the get-out-of-debt rhetoric to individuals? Is he opposed to the grand Gadianton debt-slavery scheme?

[AGStacker]

While your advice isn't bad the destruction of the dollar means that tangible assets when measured in dollars will go up in value quite infinitely.

Just look at the Weimar Republic of Germany. Before their mark reached full velocity it only took 4 marks to equal 1 dollar. It ended up being around 4 trillion marks to one dollar before a new currency was issued. Gold and silver increased in value when measured against the mark like unto the dollar.

But yes, paying off debt is never bad advice. Silver wont allow one to survive the darkest days of chaos but when order is restored those holding tangibles will have preserved some type of wealth.

Dr. Jones,

I certainly agree with Romney that both Republicans and Democrats are to blamed. It is unfortunate that the parties don't see the huge similarities between the two. They are more alike than they are different.

[jonesde]

While your advice isn't bad the destruction of the dollar means that tangible assets when measured in dollars will go up in value quite infinitely.

Just look at the Weimar Republic of Germany. Before their mark reached full velocity it only took 4 marks to equal 1 dollar. It ended up being around 4 trillion marks to one dollar before a new currency was issued. Gold and silver increased in value when measured against the mark like unto the dollar.

But yes, paying off debt is never bad advice. Silver wont allow one to survive the darkest days of chaos but when order is restored those holding tangibles will have preserved some type of wealth.

Keep in mind that Legion has a pretty significant bias toward the idea of deflation as opposed to inflation.

You mentioned the value of silver versus dollars going up infinitely, which would be true if the value of the USD drops to zero (or effectively zero over time), but the real point is that the USD won't always hold value so savings denominated in USD long-term are almost certain to lose value.

Unfortunately debt in USD may not follow the same curve. If govt interferes to protect banks, as they've done so many times, currency replacement laws may not offer the same ratio of exchange on debt that they do on cash or funds in bank accounts or other USD denominated instruments. For example, debt could exchange at 2 to 1 where cash and bank accounts are exchanged at 10 to 1.

Still, if you have some silver and/or gold on hand for an emergency I wouldn't sell it to pay off debts unless it was a last resort. If you have that set aside for an emergency, then wait for a real emergency where you have no other option... ie no option to take on additional work or reduce expenses and luxuries (including prepared foods, etc).

Legion doesn't know what the value of metals versus USD will be more than anyone else does, but the trend for decades has been the USD reducing in value, and I don't expect that reverse over any significant time span, even if some sectors are deflating we have a currency system based on steady inflation, and one with built-in self-destruct mechanisms like derivatives.

You may be able to pay off debts should inflation unfold as it has in many other countries (Germany, and more recently Argentina and many others). If things fall apart in a big way and people aren't wanting to sell much, you'll likely have a much better chance to trading for precious metals than for paper currency... and forget about checks and credit cards. But yeah, I think it's obvious to most that you shouldn't count on precious metals to feed or shelter you in a crisis.

[jonesde]

1. GET OUT OF DEBT! the Prophets have counseled this for a LONG TIME!

2. AVOID UNNECESSARY "BURDENSOME TAXES", while still paying appropriate taxes.

3. GROW YOUR OWN GARDENS.

4. ACQUIRE FOOD STORAGE and "prepare every needful thing" (Church pamphlet)

NOTE: I'M JUST TRYING TO EMPHASIZE WHAT THE PROPHETS HAVE SAID

These are great. Moving on to some other ideas, that might be supportable with prophetic quotes, but that I think are inline with general teachings and would also give oppressive governments fewer resources, and fewer excuses to seize resources:

5. use means other than cops and courts and lawmaking to solve problems peacefully and directly with others whenever possible (especially on the topic of deflating the litigious and forceful approach to doing things)

6. wherever possible, don't accept government benefits; this is a specific application of #5 to solve financial problems and providing for necessities in ways that do not involve government funding programs where money is involuntarily taken from some (or created by the Federal Reserve, inflating the economy and increasing debt) to give to others

7. focus on productive work; people say it's hard to find work, but that isn't true, it's easy to find work... what's harder is finding pay; you can work to produce things you need, or things that others might be willing to pay for and if you work hard enough and long enough, eventually it will result in an income; if you're currently relying on government benefits, work is the way out for you and for the nation and other nations around the world

8. if you run a business, run it in a way that does not rely on government benefits or government anti-competitive measures (ie focus on improving your offerings instead of destroying competing organizations through government force)

9. as an extension to #4 above, pursue self-sufficiency and self-reliance as much as possible; keep in mind that not only can we not help others if we can't take care of ourselves, but if we can't take care of ourselves then one way or another others must take care of us... and government loves programs that involve forcing some to take care of others, and to grow and take care of folks in government at the same time; of course there are time when we can't take care of ourselves for whatever reason, but we should make those temporary exceptions in our lives and not the norm; this obviously requires work (ie #7), and is also a way of looking at things; build things to last and produce long-term, like permaculture principles and practices as opposed to our modern monoculture approaches

10. as you hear things, question everything that leads toward larger government or implies that government is the solution to the problem; there are so many other and better ways to solve most problems (ie just a few that really are best solved by government); so much news bias is pro-government, and nearly all political propaganda is pro-government, ie implying or stating that only a government solution will do and that it is the proper role of government to get involved in whatever the particular thing is; the answer to your questioning won't always be that government should not get involved, but it should always be the question and in so many cases if it is an excuse to grow the size or powers of government, it is probably a lie or at least misrepresented and exaggerated

11. vote with your dollars - both earning and spending; support organizations that produce good things and do it in a good way, starve the ones that are part of the Gadianton cabal (these often use laws to eliminate competition, force people to buy their products, etc); there are options these days for everything from food and healthcare to energy and utility infrastructure

Anyway, all of these are aimed at cutting off funding to public and private organizations that are the agents of the Gadiantons, and through which they get most of their power.

[TheZemnarihahTree]

As to who is THE Master Mahan I cannot tell, but identifying latter-day Gadiantons is actually quite simple, in a notional sense. These tips from the Book of Mormon are like the scent and filth trails they leave behind which lead to their many and varied modern manifestations:

-They plan in secret (Ether 8:9)
-They administer oaths amonst themselves to get power and gain, and to get away with murder and whoredoms (Ether 8:16; Helaman 2:3,8)
-They seek to overthrow the freedoms of others (Ether 8:25)
-They attempt to put themselves into positions of power and authority, perhaps to the point of having it all (Helaman 2:5,8; 6:39)
-They veil their intrigues by using secret signs (Helaman 2:7)
-They are present when free nations are destroyed (Ether 8:22,25; Helaman 2:13)
-They seek consolidation and centralization of government (Alma 51:5)
-They mingle themselves among the rest of the people (Helaman 1:12)
-They turn their backs on the poor, the meek, and the humble followers of God (Helaman 6:39)

There is so much of what the Gadiantons seek that is embodied in the concept of money, so it is safe to say that if one wishes to follow the trails to find them all one needs to do is follow the money (and, I would add, the most powerful system ever devised to consolidate money -- usery). There are many growing money monopolies in this world, namely the Federal Reserve system and the World Monetary Fund.

Anyway, there is so much more that could be said here that this post could go on and on, but I would underscore what jonesde said...

11. vote with your dollars - both earning and spending; support organizations that produce good things and do it in a good way, starve the ones that are part of the Gadianton cabal (these often use laws to eliminate competition, force people to buy their products, etc); there are options these days for everything from food and healthcare to energy and utility infrastructure

...and add to it...

2. AVOID UNNECESSARY "BURDENSOME TAXES", while still paying appropriate taxes.

...to say that there are many ways to deprive the official money/usery/taxation monopolies. Commit to purchasing more and more with sales tax-free systems such as "freecycle" or kijiji/Craigslist/garage sales, consider bartering and starting up neighborhood bartering coops, or, for the legally savvy, even try to subvert the money monopoly by creating and/or using alternative money systems.

[Jason]

While your advice isn't bad the destruction of the dollar means that tangible assets when measured in dollars will go up in value quite infinitely.

Just look at the Weimar Republic of Germany. Before their mark reached full velocity it only took 4 marks to equal 1 dollar. It ended up being around 4 trillion marks to one dollar before a new currency was issued. Gold and silver increased in value when measured against the mark like unto the dollar.

But yes, paying off debt is never bad advice. Silver wont allow one to survive the darkest days of chaos but when order is restored those holding tangibles will have preserved some type of wealth.

Dr. Jones,

I certainly agree with Romney that both Republicans and Democrats are to blamed. It is unfortunate that the parties don't see the huge similarities between the two. They are more alike than they are different.

Well its just a guess....for whatever its worth. Silver is about half of where it was a few weeks past a year ago. I'm not seeing the increase. Housing in SLC has done better in the past year than silver has.

Weimar Republic wasn't borrowing from private banks with interest.

[jonesde]

Well its just a guess....for whatever its worth. Silver is about half of where it was a few weeks past a year ago. I'm not seeing the increase. Housing in SLC has done better in the past year than silver has.

Weimar Republic wasn't borrowing from private banks with interest.

Yes, if you pick your timeframe you can demonstrate a bias for any investment. Metals and currencies don't exactly follow a consistent pattern from year to year, they vary a lot. For these more "stable" things only longer term trends are helpful.

For silver, just because it tripled and then dropped a third doesn't mean it's going down... it just means it had a temporary peak but is still more than double it was before the peak. The same pattern happened for gold (with different ratios). Around the same time, there was a similar inverse pattern for the dollar. There may have been a blip but it doesn't mean there isn't a longer-term trend.

If you want to make a buck quick then you'll always have a risk, and chances are there are better ways to use your time and money. If you're saving for the future, or preparing for financial instability... then it's very different.

As for Weimar, it isn't the only example of a collapsing currency... and it's crazy to think that we can inflate ours, increase government debt, etc and still have everything work out cleanly forever. That's what the Grand Poobahs of Finance want us to believe... that their fancy titles and institutions can change economic fundamentals, but it's not true. They even call slow, steady inflation a good thing... as if it didn't wipe out value in savings and require people to make risky investments (shifting money to their pockets) if they want to attempt to maintain the value of their savings.

Sure, they'll keep it going as long as they can... but it is not a system that is designed to last forever.

Getting back to the main topic...

What's worse is in the meantime they have created this incredibly risky financial system with all sorts of self-destruct mechanisms in place (like derivatives, especially credit default swaps and such) that they can use to put pressure on government to act in the ways they want.

We can deflate this system, or disempower it, by not investing in their offerings and not borrowing from them either. Whether or not you choose metals as an alternative to paper investments is another question, I guess there are plenty of options outside of the Gadianton system of fancy money.

[Jason]

Well its just a guess....for whatever its worth. Silver is about half of where it was a few weeks past a year ago. I'm not seeing the increase. Housing in SLC has done better in the past year than silver has.

Weimar Republic wasn't borrowing from private banks with interest.

Yes, if you pick your timeframe you can demonstrate a bias for any investment. Metals and currencies don't exactly follow a consistent pattern from year to year, they vary a lot. For these more "stable" things only longer term trends are helpful.

For silver, just because it tripled and then dropped a third doesn't mean it's going down... it just means it had a temporary peak but is still more than double it was before the peak. The same pattern happened for gold (with different ratios). Around the same time, there was a similar inverse pattern for the dollar. There may have been a blip but it doesn't mean there isn't a longer-term trend.

If you want to make a buck quick then you'll always have a risk, and chances are there are better ways to use your time and money. If you're saving for the future, or preparing for financial instability... then it's very different.

As for Weimar, it isn't the only example of a collapsing currency... and it's crazy to think that we can inflate ours, increase government debt, etc and still have everything work out cleanly forever. That's what the Grand Poobahs of Finance want us to believe... that their fancy titles and institutions can change economic fundamentals, but it's not true. They even call slow, steady inflation a good thing... as if it didn't wipe out value in savings and require people to make risky investments (shifting money to their pockets) if they want to attempt to maintain the value of their savings.

Sure, they'll keep it going as long as they can... but it is not a system that is designed to last forever.

Getting back to the main topic...

What's worse is in the meantime they have created this incredibly risky financial system with all sorts of self-destruct mechanisms in place (like derivatives, especially credit default swaps and such) that they can use to put pressure on government to act in the ways they want.

We can deflate this system, or disempower it, by not investing in their offerings and not borrowing from them either. Whether or not you choose metals as an alternative to paper investments is another question, I guess there are plenty of options outside of the Gadianton system of fancy money.

Amen (bold and underline)!

Thus the attempt to point out to the young man the difference between a sure thing (paying off debt at a given interest rate) versus pure speculation in the future price of silver (which no one knows except God and those whom He decides to share such information with).

Depends on who you consider the "Grand Poobahs of Finance". As far as I can tell they all have a bias. For example Ron Paul investing in paper all while recommending that everyone else invest in actual metals....and having strong political/financial connections with the guy peddling the actual metal (interesting that someone wants to peddle it rather than hold it in a safe themselves...and that person is recommending that everyone else do what he isn't doing).

[jonesde]

Thus the attempt to point out to the young man the difference between a sure thing (paying off debt at a given interest rate) versus pure speculation in the future price of silver (which no one knows except God and those whom He decides to share such information with).

Okay, I see where you were going with that. Good point: even metals like silver are not a 100% reliable investment, especially if your time frame is short.

Depends on who you consider the "Grand Poobahs of Finance". As far as I can tell they all have a bias. For example Ron Paul investing in paper all while recommending that everyone else invest in actual metals....and having strong political/financial connections with the guy peddling the actual metal (interesting that someone wants to peddle it rather than hold it in a safe themselves...and that person is recommending that everyone else do what he isn't doing).

Those guys usually only advertise and peddle when the price is going up because that is the time period when they can more easily leverage it for profit. Yes, of course they are in business to make a profit... I don't know of many mints or coin/asset distributors that operate as charities and I'd much rather pay for the minting voluntarily than have the money for it taken from me by force (as with government mints... especially, for example, the recent stories about billions in unused coins and nearly as much spent on warehousing them).

Some people may very well have shady motives for pushing metals, but does that make them inherently bad? What is a better way to have concentrated value to carry around? USD notes have a questionable future. Plain food and supplies just isn't concentrated enough to be transportable and usable for exchange. Even firearms and ammo are big, bulky, and heavy for their value in trade (well... they are right now anyway... that may not always be the case and they could be more valuable than precious metals for trade, even ounce for ounce).

This is actually kind of an interesting tangent... what sorts of things do you like to use as a store of value that works now and will (hopefully) work after TSHTF?

[linj2fly]

Great post/thread, Dr. Jones. I'd like to add to Zemnarihahtrees list. I consider this to be the seedbed of gadianton recruitment:

Helaman 6:17 For behold, the Lord had blessed them so long with the riches of the world that they had not been stirred up to anger, to wars, nor to bloodshed; therefore they began to set their hearts upon their riches; yea, they began to seek to get gain that they might be lifted up one above another; therefore they began to commit secret murders, and to rob and to plunder, that they might get gain.

This is a vulnerability for all of us and what, IMO, fuels gadianton society. These people didn't get to this point overnight. (A few years, but not overnight) Satan starts out small and mild. Like he did with Jesus, I think Satan tempts us with a 'gain' that is just within our reach if we're willing to just bend a little...so little and just beyond our grasp that sometimes it's hard to see it for what it is.

In talking about Gads, and really, fleeing Babylon, I find it helpful to study early attempts to live the United Order. Their mistakes and trials are very instructive. Yesterday I came across this wonderful talk by Elder Eyring:

http://www.lds.org/general-conference/1 ... e?lang=eng
Here is a portion:

Remembrance and Gratitude
You know from studying Church history that we have tried to live as one in a variety of settings. A story from one of those tries, in Orderville, Utah, gives us a clue as to why it is so hard.

Orderville was founded in 1870 and 1871 by people who wanted to live the united order; in 1875, they began the order. They built housing units in a square, with a common dining hall. They built a storehouse, shoe shop, bakery, blacksmith shop, tannery, schoolhouse, sheep shed, and woolen factory. They grew and made nearly everything they needed, from soap to trousers. They had carpenters, midwives, teachers, artists, and musicians. They produced enough surplus that they could sell it in neighboring towns for cash: with that they built up a capital fund to buy more land and equipment.

The population rose to seven hundred people. One hundred and fifty of them gave Orderville a special advantage: they had come to Orderville from the mission on the Muddy River, where they had nearly starved. When those who had been called to the Muddy were released, they were in near destitution. Twenty-four of those families went to Long Valley, founded Orderville, and pledged all they had to the Lord. They didn’t have much, but their poverty may have been their greatest contribution. Their having almost nothing provided a basis for future comparison that might have guaranteed gratitude: any food or clothing or housing that came to them in Orderville would be treasure compared to their privation on the Muddy mission.

But time passed, the railroad came, and a mining boom put cash in the hands of people in the neighboring towns. They could buy imported clothes, and they did. The people in Orderville were living better than they had in years, but the memory of poverty on the Muddy had faded. They now focused on what was in the next town. And so they felt old-fashioned and deprived.

One ingenious boy acted on the discontent he felt when he was denied a new pair of pants from the Orderville factory because his were not worn out yet. He secretly gathered the docked lambs’ tails from the spring crop. He sheared the wool from them and stored it in sacks. Then, when he was sent with a load of wool to sell in Nephi, he took his sacks along and exchanged them for a pair of store pants. He created a sensation when he wore the new-style pants to the next dance.

The president of the order asked him what he had done. The boy gave an honest answer. So they called him into a meeting and told him to bring the pants. They commended him for his initiative, pointed out that the pants really belonged to the order, and took them. But they told him this: the pants would be taken apart, used as a pattern, and henceforth Orderville pants would have the new store-bought style. And he would get the first pair.

That did not quite end the pants rebellion. Orders for new pants soon swamped the tailoring department. When the orders were denied because pants weren’t yet worn out, boys began slipping into the shed where the grinding wheel was housed. Soon, pants began to wear out quickly. The elders gave in, sent a load of wool out to trade for cloth, and the new-style pants were produced for everyone.

You know that isn’t a happy ending. There were many challenges Orderville faced in the ten years they lived the order there. One of them they never really conquered. It was the problem of not remembering. That is a problem we must solve, too.

Just as they forgot poverty on the Muddy, we so easily forget that we came into life with nothing. Whatever we get soon seems our natural right, not a gift. And we forget the giver. Then our gaze shifts from what we have been given to what we don’t have yet.

...to what I 'don't have yet.' Hmmm, if I could just get that _____ or have ______, I would be ______. Covetousness is being bred.

And so the remembrance King Benjamin urged upon us can be ours. Remembrance is the seed of gratitude which is the seed of generosity. Gratitude for the remission of sins is the seed of charity, the pure love of Christ. And so God has made possible for you and me this blessing, a change in our very natures: “And the remission of sins bringeth meekness, and lowliness of heart; and because of meekness and lowliness of heart cometh the visitation of the Holy Ghost, which Comforter filleth with hope and perfect love, which love endureth by diligence unto prayer, until the end shall come, when all the saints shall dwell with God.” (Moro. 8:26.) Eyring

Along with following the prophets' counsel temporally, I think (and Helaman/3 nephi prove this) we are going to have to make a huge shift spiritually. We can start small....with ourselves, as spouses, then teach our children by example and mentoring, and then our friends, those we home teach and visit teach. Eschewing the spirit of getting gain will do much for peace, individually and collectively.

Remembrance and Gratitude just may be the antidote

[Jason]

Thus the attempt to point out to the young man the difference between a sure thing (paying off debt at a given interest rate) versus pure speculation in the future price of silver (which no one knows except God and those whom He decides to share such information with).

Okay, I see where you were going with that. Good point: even metals like silver are not a 100% reliable investment, especially if your time frame is short.

Even if your time frame is long. Who knows where it will end up and at what time point. Even if you think you have the trend figured out the timing is where you make the money and that's a WAG. Look at Peter Schiff for example. He appears to have nailed the trend from 2008-2010 but he helped people lose a ton of money in that time period (like 50%+ of their portfolio's) because he didn't have the specific investments and timing nailed down tight. Wall Street is just another version of Vegas. The only guarantee you have is with the house. If you are playing with the house then its a sure thing. For everyone else it takes a gifted card counter to make money over the long haul. Usually the house doesn't care too much for those folks and they take a beating at some point (like in an alley with a baseball bat) if they don't play ball with the house.

Were I to ask the question, how much wheat or anything else a man must have to justify him in letting it go to waste, it would be hard to answer; figures are inadequate to give the amount. Never let anything go to waste. Be prudent, save everything, and what you get more than you can take care of yourselves, ask your neighbors to help you. There are scores and hundreds of men in this house, if the question were asked them if they considered their grain a burden and a drudge to them, when they had plenty last year and the year before, that would answer in the affirmative, and were ready to part with it for next to nothing. How do they feel now, when their granaries are empty? If they had a few thousand bushels to spare now, would they not consider it a blessing? They would. Why? Because it would bring the gold and silver. But pause for a moment, and suppose you had millions of bushels to sell, and could sell it for twenty dollars per bushel, or for a million dollars per bushel, no matter what amount, so that you sell all your wheat, and transport it out of the country, and you are left with nothing more than a pile of gold, what good would it do you? You could not eat it, drink it, wear it, or carry it off where you could have something to eat. The time will come that gold will hold no comparison in value to a bushel of wheat. Gold is not to be compared with it in value. Why would it be precious to you now? Simply because you could get gold for it? Gold is good for nothing, only as men value it. It is no better than a piece of iron, a piece of limestone, or a piece of sandstone, and it is not half so good as the soil from which we raise our wheat, and other necessaries of life. The children of men love it, they lust after it, are greedy for it, and are ready to destroy themselves, and those around them, over whom they have any influence, to gain it.

- Journal of Discourses, 1:, p.250.

If that's the endpoint for gold....how do you think silver will fare (over the long haul)?

Depends on who you consider the "Grand Poobahs of Finance". As far as I can tell they all have a bias. For example Ron Paul investing in paper all while recommending that everyone else invest in actual metals....and having strong political/financial connections with the guy peddling the actual metal (interesting that someone wants to peddle it rather than hold it in a safe themselves...and that person is recommending that everyone else do what he isn't doing).

Those guys usually only advertise and peddle when the price is going up because that is the time period when they can more easily leverage it for profit. Yes, of course they are in business to make a profit... I don't know of many mints or coin/asset distributors that operate as charities and I'd much rather pay for the minting voluntarily than have the money for it taken from me by force (as with government mints... especially, for example, the recent stories about billions in unused coins and nearly as much spent on warehousing them).

Some people may very well have shady motives for pushing metals, but does that make them inherently bad? What is a better way to have concentrated value to carry around? USD notes have a questionable future. Plain food and supplies just isn't concentrated enough to be transportable and usable for exchange. Even firearms and ammo are big, bulky, and heavy for their value in trade (well... they are right now anyway... that may not always be the case and they could be more valuable than precious metals for trade, even ounce for ounce).

This is actually kind of an interesting tangent... what sorts of things do you like to use as a store of value that works now and will (hopefully) work after TSHTF?

Food producing land. Preferably free of pesticides, herbicides, fungicides, insecticides, etc...and not bombarded with fertilizer for decades....the way God intelligently designed it and not laid waste to by the ravages of man in pursuit of money acquisition via the slavery of his brothers.

But even the value of that is subject to timing and location. And there is tons of speculation regarding both in which no one but those informed of God really know. IMO its best to just focus on building the kingdom, lifting where we stand, and let God take care of the tomorrows. Not to say that we don't heed counsel like food storage...but the focus should be on building the kingdom and not on survival nets (which are never big enough or sturdy enough no matter how much we put into them). The real survival net is being obedient to God's commandments and doing our best to serve to the best of our capabilities. Even if we are taken....All is Well!

The revelation to store food may be as essential to our temporal salvation today as boarding the ark was to the people in the days of Noah.

- Ezra Taft Benson, "Prepare Ye," Ensign, Jan 1974, 69.

The time will come that gold will hold no comparison in value to a bushel of wheat.

- President Brigham Young, Discourses of Brigham Young, p.298.

‘There is more salvation and security in wheat, than in all the political schemes of the world...’

- Ezra Taft Benson quoting Brigham Young - JD 2:207.

We are living in the prophesied time, 'when peace shall be taken from the earth,' (D&C 1:35) when 'all thing shall be in commotion,' and 'men's hearts shall fail them' (D&C 88:91) These signs of the Second Coming are all around us and seem to be increasing in frequency and intensity.'" ... While we are powerless to alter the fact of the Second Coming and unable to know its exact time, we can accelerate our own preparation and try to influence the preparation of those around us. We need to make both temporal and spiritual preparation for the events prophesied at the time of the Second Coming.

- Preparation for the Second Coming, Elder Dallin H. Oaks Conference, April 2004.

Go to now, ye rich men, weep and howl for your miseries that shall come upon you. Your riches are corrupted, and your garments are moth eaten. Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days. Behold, the hire of the labourers who have reaped down your fields, which is of you kept back by fraud, crieth: and the cries of them which have reaped are entered into the ears of the Lord of sabaoth.

http://www.lds.org/scriptures/nt/james/5?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers

http://www.lds.org/scriptures/nt/1-pet/1?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

All hands shall be feeble, and all knees shall be weak as water.

They shall also gird themselves with sackcloth, and horror shall cover them; and shame shall be upon all faces, and baldness upon all their heads.

They shall cast their silver in the streets, and their gold shall be removed: their silver and their gold shall not be able to deliver them in the day of the wrath of the Lord: they shall not satisfy their souls, neither fill their bowels: because it is the stumbling block of their iniquity.

http://www.lds.org/scriptures/ot/ezek/7?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Their idols are silver and gold, the work of men’s hands. They have mouths, but they speak not: eyes have they, but they see not:
They have ears, but they hear not: noses have they, but they smell not:
They have hands, but they handle not: feet have they, but they walk not: neither speak they through their throat.
They that make them are like unto them; so is every one that trusteth in them.

http://www.lds.org/scriptures/ot/ps/115?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[karen2cruise]

Ok, I guess my last post got pulled so I will re-phrase to anyone here:

If one is doing as the church asks-staying out of debt, saving for a mission, doing the food storage, etc- what does one do with thier savings in the bank? Is anything safe?

[jonesde]

Thus the attempt to point out to the young man the difference between a sure thing (paying off debt at a given interest rate) versus pure speculation in the future price of silver (which no one knows except God and those whom He decides to share such information with).

Okay, I see where you were going with that. Good point: even metals like silver are not a 100% reliable investment, especially if your time frame is short.

Even if your time frame is long. Who knows where it will end up and at what time point. Even if you think you have the trend figured out the timing is where you make the money and that's a WAG. Look at Peter Schiff for example. He appears to have nailed the trend from 2008-2010 but he helped people lose a ton of money in that time period (like 50%+ of their portfolio's) because he didn't have the specific investments and timing nailed down tight. Wall Street is just another version of Vegas. The only guarantee you have is with the house. If you are playing with the house then its a sure thing. For everyone else it takes a gifted card counter to make money over the long haul. Usually the house doesn't care too much for those folks and they take a beating at some point (like in an alley with a baseball bat) if they don't play ball with the house.

I don't think he was talking about it as an investment, and I don't use metals that we either. They are simply a store of value, and for me mostly meant to be used in a real emergency when cash is not an option, especially if I'm traveling and more especially if I'm traveling abroad.

I've considered that if silver/gold go up in value enough I might use them to pay off debts, but that isn't really why I bought them... just something to always keep in mind as a way to free myself of that bondage.

Were I to ask the question, how much wheat or anything else a man must have to justify him in letting it go to waste, it would be hard to answer; figures are inadequate to give the amount. Never let anything go to waste. Be prudent, save everything, and what you get more than you can take care of yourselves, ask your neighbors to help you. There are scores and hundreds of men in this house, if the question were asked them if they considered their grain a burden and a drudge to them, when they had plenty last year and the year before, that would answer in the affirmative, and were ready to part with it for next to nothing. How do they feel now, when their granaries are empty? If they had a few thousand bushels to spare now, would they not consider it a blessing? They would. Why? Because it would bring the gold and silver. But pause for a moment, and suppose you had millions of bushels to sell, and could sell it for twenty dollars per bushel, or for a million dollars per bushel, no matter what amount, so that you sell all your wheat, and transport it out of the country, and you are left with nothing more than a pile of gold, what good would it do you? You could not eat it, drink it, wear it, or carry it off where you could have something to eat. The time will come that gold will hold no comparison in value to a bushel of wheat. Gold is not to be compared with it in value. Why would it be precious to you now? Simply because you could get gold for it? Gold is good for nothing, only as men value it. It is no better than a piece of iron, a piece of limestone, or a piece of sandstone, and it is not half so good as the soil from which we raise our wheat, and other necessaries of life. The children of men love it, they lust after it, are greedy for it, and are ready to destroy themselves, and those around them, over whom they have any influence, to gain it.

- Journal of Discourses, 1:, p.250.

If that's the endpoint for gold....how do you think silver will fare (over the long haul)?

That quote doesn't say it's an end point, in fact it implies that it is a temporary thing... and even that the "children of men love it, they lust after it, are greedy for it..." meaning that it is a good thing to have around for trade.

This is actually kind of an interesting tangent... what sorts of things do you like to use as a store of value that works now and will (hopefully) work after TSHTF?

Food producing land. Preferably free of pesticides, herbicides, fungicides, insecticides, etc...and not bombarded with fertilizer for decades....the way God intelligently designed it and not laid waste to by the ravages of man in pursuit of money acquisition via the slavery of his brothers.

But even the value of that is subject to timing and location. And there is tons of speculation regarding both in which no one but those informed of God really know. IMO its best to just focus on building the kingdom, lifting where we stand, and let God take care of the tomorrows. Not to say that we don't heed counsel like food storage...but the focus should be on building the kingdom and not on survival nets (which are never big enough or sturdy enough no matter how much we put into them). The real survival net is being obedient to God's commandments and doing our best to serve to the best of our capabilities. Even if we are taken....All is Well!

That's an important point, but remember we're discussing approaches to taking responsibility for the stewardships of ourselves and our families, and that requires work, wisdom, and planning. The fact that other things are important does not mean we can ignore this without be cast out with fools.

Food and land are great, but you can't carry much of them with you. Obviously if someone got a bunch of gold and bought no food or ways to produce food, then they would be really foolish. On the other hand, if you have food and ways to produce food but don't have anything of value you can carry with you, you are similarly foolish and may end up risking your life unwisely to protect the things you can't carry with you or hide to use to provide for you and yours later on.

Another thing about productive land: right now there is a very large number of people on the earth and land is a limited resource, increasing it's market value. However, it hasn't always been that way and through most of history if you were willing to head out into the wilderness there was land free for the taking. If there is a major population reduction by any means, things may be that way again. If that were to happen, buying lots of land would be actually be a bad investment and you wouldn't be able to do anything with most of the land, let alone defend and preserve it.

IMO it would be better to invest in tools and supplies for producing food, along with a bit of land where you practice and that you develop using permaculture techniques so that eventually it produces a lot with very little effort.

[Jason]

Ok, I guess my last post got pulled so I will re-phrase to anyone here:

If one is doing as the church asks-staying out of debt, saving for a mission, doing the food storage, etc- what does one do with thier savings in the bank? Is anything safe?

If men have control over it....no. Which is why the hearts of men will fail them.

The only real safety comes from following the Lord's counsel and seeking after His counsel. God (and whomever He tells) is the only one who knows the future and can guide you through the storms of life (not to mention the 2nd Coming). If the Creator desires that you not make it through the storms.....no safety net will prevent His will from being carried out because the elements which are completely obedient to His will. And on the flip side....if He desires that you do make it....then you can rest assured that you will (no matter what your preparations are or aren't - like "manna" from heaven).

Anybody who tells you different (trying to peddle their "safe" investment) is a liar.