Why we are still under condemnation and what we can do.

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marc
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Why we are still under condemnation and what we can do.

Post by marc »

I have been trying to share a message on this forum about coming to Christ and I have not been alone. A few others have expressed the same desire and I believe this effort has begun to gain a little traction. By coming unto Christ, I mean making our calling and election sure, that we may receive the Second Comforter as two thousand five hundred Nephites and Lamanites did when Christ visited them and gave them the fullness of the gospel. Let me preface this with a single scripture, which is a revelation given to Joseph Smith by Jesus Christ:
D&C 84

49 And the whole world lieth in sin, and groaneth under darkness and under the bondage of sin.

50 And by this you may know they are under the bondage of sin, because they come not unto me.

51 For whoso cometh not unto me is under the bondage of sin.

52 And whoso receiveth not my voice is not acquainted with my voice, and is not of me.

53 And by this you may know the righteous from the wicked, and that the whole world groaneth under sin and darkness even now.

54 And your minds in times past have been darkened because of unbelief, and because you have treated lightly the things you have received

55 Which vanity and unbelief have brought the whole church under condemnation.

56 And this condemnation resteth upon the children of Zion, even all.

57 And they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon and the former commandments which I have given them, not only to say, but to do according to that which I have written...
Now let me offer some background. The Book of Mormon, even the marvelous work and a wonder, of which Isaiah prophesied generations before Lehi left Jerusalem, was prepared to come forth from the foundation of the world. Gaining an understanding of the allegory of the tame and wild olive trees in Jacob 5 is a huge plus and will give perspective regarding its timeline, the various phases of the scattering and gathering, the role of the Nephites/Lamanites as the remnant of Joseph and their importance in the ushering in of the restoration of the fullness of the gospel and Christ's church. A part of this happened as far back as the time of the tower of Babel where a small group of people led by Jared and his brother, who spoke face to face with Jesus Christ:
Ether 4

1 And the Lord commanded the brother of Jared to go down out of the mount from the presence of the Lord, and write the things which he had seen; and they were forbidden to come unto the children of men until after that he should be lifted up upon the cross; and for this cause did king Mosiah keep them, that they should not come unto the world until after Christ should show himself unto his people.

2 And after Christ truly had showed himself unto his people he commanded that they should be made manifest.

3 And now, after that, they have all dwindled in unbelief; and there is none save it be the Lamanites, and they have rejected the gospel of Christ; therefore I am commanded that I should hide them up again in the earth.

4 Behold, I have written upon these plates the very things which the brother of Jared saw; and there never were greater things made manifest than those which were made manifest unto the brother of Jared.

5 Wherefore the Lord hath commanded me to write them; and I have written them. And he commanded me that I should seal them up; and he also hath commanded that I should seal up the interpretation thereof; wherefore I have sealed up the interpreters, according to the commandment of the Lord.

6 For the Lord said unto me: They shall not go forth unto the Gentiles until the day that they shall repent of their iniquity, and become clean before the Lord.

7 And in that day that they shall exercise faith in me, saith the Lord, even as the brother of Jared did, that they may become sanctified in me, then will I manifest unto them the things which the brother of Jared saw, even to the unfolding unto them all my revelations, saith Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of the heavens and of the earth, and all things that in them are.
So the brother of Jared saw everything from the beginning to the end but was forbidden to write it all down for us because Jesus Christ knew that we as a church would take this gift lightly. Even Nephi saw everything from beginning to end but was forbidden to write it down because of the condemnation that we, today, would be under because of our pride, vanity and unbelief:
2 Nephi 32

6 Behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and there will be no more doctrine given until after he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh. And when he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh, the things which he shall say unto you shall ye observe to do.

7 And now I, Nephi, cannot say more; the Spirit stoppeth mine utterance, and I am left to mourn because of the unbelief, and the wickedness, and the ignorance, and the stiffneckedness of men; for they will not search knowledge, nor understand great knowledge, when it is given unto them in plainness, even as plain as word can be.
So both the brother of Jared and Nephi did not write down all that was given them while in the flesh and so God's people had to wait until He manifested Himself unto them. And so He did. And He appeared to them in the land of Bountiful and taught them many great things.
3 Nephi 26

3 And he did expound all things, even from the beginning until the time that he should come in his glory—yea, even all things which should come upon the face of the earth, even until the elements should melt with fervent heat, and the earth should be wrapt together as a scroll, and the heavens and the earth should pass away;

4 And even unto the great and last day, when all people, and all kindreds, and all nations and tongues shall stand before God, to be judged of their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil—

5 If they be good, to the resurrection of everlasting life; and if they be evil, to the resurrection of damnation; being on a parallel, the one on the one hand and the other on the other hand, according to the mercy, and the justice, and the holiness which is in Christ, who was before the world began.

6 And now there cannot be written in this book even a hundredth part of the things which Jesus did truly teach unto the people;

7 But behold the plates of Nephi do contain the more part of the things which he taught the people.

8 And these things have I written, which are a lesser part of the things which he taught the people; and I have written them to the intent that they may be brought again unto this people, from the Gentiles, according to the words which Jesus hath spoken.

9 And when they shall have received this, which is expedient that they should have first, to try their faith, and if it shall so be that they shall believe these things then shall the greater things be made manifest unto them.

10 And if it so be that they will not believe these things, then shall the greater things be withheld from them, unto their condemnation.
So Joseph Smith was commanded to translate the Book of Mormon, but he was also commanded NOT to touch the sealed portion. And so begins the mission of the Gentiles to bring the gospel to the house of Israel, to gather in the covenant people, both of birth and adoption (ALL OF US).

It has been stated in other threads that our church is no longer under condemnation. Well if that is so, then it must also needs be that we have received all the remainder of the revelations that Jesus Christ promised us. Do we have them? Is the sealed portion of the Book of Mormon available to all the members of the church and to the world? Has any prophet, apostle or any general authority declared that our condemnation has been lifted and we have cause to rejoice? What did President Ezra Taft Benson have to say about this back in 1986?
President Ezra Taft Benson:

My beloved brethren and sisters, today I would like to speak about one of the most significant gifts given to the world in modern times. The gift I am thinking of is more important than any of the inventions that have come out of the industrial and technological revolutions. This is a gift of greater value to mankind than even the many wonderful advances we have seen in modern medicine. It is of greater worth to mankind than the development of flight or space travel. I speak of the gift of the Book of Mormon, given to mankind 156 years ago...

This gift was prepared by the hand of the Lord over a period of more than a thousand years, then hidden up by Him so that it would be preserved in its purity for our generation. Perhaps there is nothing that testifies more clearly of the importance of this modern book of scripture than what the Lord Himself has said about it...

Think of that in terms of what it implies. The coming forth of the Book of Mormon preceded the restoration of the priesthood. It was published just a few days before the Church was organized. The Saints were given the Book of Mormon to read before they were given the revelations outlining such great doctrines as the three degrees of glory, celestial marriage, or work for the dead. It came before priesthood quorums and Church organization. Doesn’t this tell us something about how the Lord views this sacred work?...

In 1832, as some early missionaries returned from their fields of labor, the Lord reproved them for treating the Book of Mormon lightly. As a result of that attitude, he said, their minds had been darkened. Not only had treating this sacred book lightly brought a loss of light to themselves, it had also brought the whole Church under condemnation, even all the children of Zion. And then the Lord said, “And they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon...

If the early Saints were rebuked for treating the Book of Mormon lightly, are we under any less condemnation if we do the same? The Lord Himself bears testimony that it is of eternal significance. Can a small number of us bring the whole Church under condemnation because we trifle with sacred things? What will we say at the Judgment when we stand before Him and meet His probing gaze if we are among those described as forgetting the new covenant?...

The Book of Mormon: Keystone of our Religion
He goes on to tell us why we need to take the Book of Mormon seriously. Elder Dallin H. Oaks gave a fireside talk, which originated at BYU on June 6, 1993. Some of his words:
Dallin H. Oaks

Along with other General Authorities, I have a clear recollection of the General Authority temple meeting on 5 March 1987. For a year, President Benson had been stressing the reading of the Book of Mormon. Repeatedly he had quoted these verses from the Doctrine and Covenants, including the Lord’s statement that the Saints’ conduct had “brought the whole church under condemnation” (D&C 84:55).

In that temple meeting, President Benson reread those statements and declared, “This condemnation has not been lifted, nor will it be until we repent.” He also repeated his declaration of a year earlier that “in our day the Lord has inspired His servant to reemphasize the Book of Mormon to get the Church out from under condemnation.”

Another Testament of Jesus Christ
Again, I ask, has any prophet since Ezra Taft Benson declared that we are no longer under condemnation? My answer to that is NO. Not one prophet, apostle, president, or any general authority has revealed such. There are many layers of truth in the Book of Mormon, which DOES contain the fullness of the gospel:
D&C 20

8 And gave him power from on high, by the means which were before prepared, to translate the Book of Mormon;

9 Which contains a record of a fallen people, and the fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles and to the Jews also;

Two thousand, five hundred Nephites and Lamanites had their calling and election made sure and received the Second Comforter. They brought forth fruit meet for repentance and they gained their salvation:

3 Nephi 27

30 And now, behold, my joy is great, even unto fulness, because of you, and also this generation; yea, and even the Father rejoiceth, and also all the holy angels, because of you and this generation; for none of them are lost.

This brings me back full circle to what Nephi, the brother of Jared, these Nephites and Lamanites and many others in the Book of Mormon all witnessed. And we can have the same thing today. This is what some people like Denver Snuffer, Amonhi, John Pontius and more and more members of the church are testifying about. I should hope that everyone say, "I know Jesus Christ lives. I have seen him." Should our general authorities be the only ones who can make such a claim? I should hope to hear them even say it. Each and every one of us can have the condemnation removed from us by seeking the Lord, by coming unto Jesus Christ, that He may tell us that our names are written in heaven, never to be blotted out again. This is what Zenos was telling us in Jacob 5. The Lord of the vineyard labors diligently even today to grown and bring forth fruit unto Himself. This fruit is all of us. We are the olives of this allegory. It's up to us to decide whether we will be laid up against the season as good fruit or to be cast into the fire as evil fruit. The last thought I leave to the reader is what Joseph Smith and Jesus Christ have both testified:
"Then I would exhort you to go on and continue to call upon God until you make your calling and election sure for yourselves; by obtaining this more sure word of prophecy, and wait patiently for the promise until you obtain it." --Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 299.
D&C 93

1 Verily, thus saith the Lord: It shall come to pass that every soul who forsaketh his sins and cometh unto me, and calleth on my name, and obeyeth my voice, and keepeth my commandments, shall see my face and know that I am;
Why procrastinate the day of our repentance and HOPE that when we stand to be judged, we have done enough, when we can start NOW and seek the Lord NOW. Who would NOT want to visit with Jesus Christ in THIS life and know that He has accepted our sacrifice of a broken heart and a contrite spirit and given us the greatest gift that can be given? This is the whole point of the creation and His atonement!
Moses 1:39 For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.
Last edited by marc on May 11th, 2012, 8:01 am, edited 4 times in total.

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Original_Intent
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Re: Are we still under condemnation?

Post by Original_Intent »

I don't think there is any question that we are.

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marc
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Re: Why we are still under condemnation and what we can do.

Post by marc »

Ok, I changed the title. I want to get people to think.

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Original_Intent
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Re: Why we are still under condemnation and what we can do.

Post by Original_Intent »

coachmarc wrote:Ok, I changed the title. I want to get people to think.
I think I like your avatar. ;)

I think your post pretty much answers your question, both the one you started with and your new, changed one.

The Reader's Digest version is we either know what we should be doing, or at the least have no excuse not to know (We have been told plenty.)

And, to be blunt, we refuse. We want Babylon. Or we will get to it tomorrow. Or we would rather worry about if President Monsen is fulfilling his duties rather than if we are fulfilling ours. Or we would rather talk theory year after year rather than getting of our hind ends and putting our shoulder to the wheel. That's self-directed criticism as much as anything else.

Or we read the Book of Mormon 10 times to have bragging rights in Priesthood or Relief Society, but we still don't understand how it is more current than the morning newspaper. Or we think that Mitt Romney has the priesthood and that's all we need to know. Or we have no idea "what's so bad" about the NDAA.

The list goes on and on. Really, there are probably as many ways that we are under condemnation as there are members (granted, I do believe there is a small fraction that are living in a manner worthy not to be under condemnation.)

karen2cruise
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Re: Why we are still under condemnation and what we can do.

Post by karen2cruise »

Yes, we are still under condemnation, until we turn away from the world and turn towards Christ. Prosperity can be a good thing but more often as not it can lead us away from who we should be. We are now in the Chastening cycle.

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marc
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Re: Why we are still under condemnation and what we can do.

Post by marc »

Original_Intent wrote:...but we still don't understand how it is more current than the morning newspaper.
Amen! I believe that Moroni tells us in Ether 8 why his father, Mormon, included the wars between the king men and the free men soon after Mosiah formed a republic, a representative government to secure liberty, ruled by chief judges, judges, officers, etc.

23 Wherefore, O ye Gentiles, it is wisdom in God that these things should be shown unto you, that thereby ye may repent of your sins, and suffer not that these murderous combinations shall get above you, which are built up to get power and gain—and the work, yea, even the work of destruction come upon you, yea, even the sword of the justice of the Eternal God shall fall upon you, to your overthrow and destruction if ye shall suffer these things to be.

The Book of Mormon...expounding on things like

The condescension of Jesus Christ
The church of the Firstborn
The church of the devil/whore of all the earth
The Law of Moses
Polygamy
The remnant of Joseph
Scattering/Gathering of Israel
The Promised Land
Columbus/Revolutionary War
Liberty/land of liberty
New Jerusalem
Secret combinations/infiltration of evil men into every office of government
Repeating history/our fate
Fullness of gospel
Doctrine of Jesus Christ
Miracles/revelations/heavenly gifts
Fasting/Praying/Tithing
Feeding/clothing the naked, hungry and poor
Charity
The Second Comforter

I could go on and on...

reese
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Re: Why we are still under condemnation and what we can do.

Post by reese »

Essay 31.* by James Custer

FAITH AND THE POWER OF BELIEVING

Believing is the foundation of faith. It is our part of the gift of faith. When our believing meets the requirement the power of faith is bestowed. Jesus often said, “He that believeth in me . . .” He predicated all gifts and blessings on our capacity to believe. By 1832 vanity and unbelief had brought the entire church under condemnation per Doctrine and Covenants 84. And president Benson reminded us that this condemnation remains to this very day.
55 Which vanity and unbelief have brought the whole church under condemnation.
56 And this condemnation resteth upon the children of Zion, even all. (D&C 84:54-56).

THE “NATURAL MAN” AND GENERIC UNBELIEF
The hallmark of the natural man is a peculiar type of unbelief which is virtually beyond our awareness. It is a species of unbelief that leads people to deny in performance what they consciously profess to believe. There is a believing by which we speak, and a believing by which we perform; and the difference between these two realms of belief constitutes denial of what we profess. That denial is the measure of this malignant and peculiar type of unbelief, it is pervasive in its affects upon our lives like an insidious disease of which we are practically unaware even though it constantly makes us liars because we really do not perform according to the believing we profess. This peculiar pervasive unbelief could rightly be called “generic unbelief”.
After our faith has at last compelled us through sacrifice and surrender, and after the "natural man" has been secured in dungeon chains, we will still find ourselves plagued by muted cries from the dungeon: "It can't be done!". There is no evasion of the ultimate realization: we must crucify this enemy we have subdued. Even in chains he constantly molests our limited minds with his "generic unbelief". It attaches to virtually every aspect of life.
Even though we give lip service, claiming to honor and believe in faith, we are virtually paralyzed in its exercise. Jesus could, by faith, create fishes and bread, but that is not for us. Anyone claiming such power as that, in this day, would be subject to scorn, ridicule, and suspicion of Satanic possession. Slay that enemy, the natural man, and his generic unbelief, and be free of contra¬diction in the mind.
Generic unbelief? One might be compelled to exclaim: "What? I don't under¬stand; I'm a believing person! I have a testimony, I know the church is true."
Yes, we may know the church is true, what ever that means; but how well do we know the giver of that gift, Jesus Christ? To what extent do we really believe in him and in ourselves, our own ability to emulate his works?” This is where generic unbelief is manifest.
Perhaps a trite and familiar little story will clarify the term “generic unbelief”, and clearly identify its existence in us all.

A devout advocate of the gospel goes to the mountains for prayer and fasting. He is alone, and in his wandering falls over a precipitous ledge, but haply he grasps a frail branch of some little tree growing out of the rock. There he hangs, every moment threatening to over-stress his frail tenuous support, which can in no way bear up under his weight for more than a few moments. "LORD, HELP ME!" he shouts to the one he came to worship, "have I not served you faithfully?" but he has never seen the Lord, and is unable to see him at this time although he hears a distinct voice from somewhere say,
"Do you really believe I can save you?"
"OH YES LORD!"
"Then let go of that flimsy little branch."
“Lord! Why do you try me at this perilous moment?”
“What better time?”

Generic unbelief! Does this story not make it palpable? Are there any who do not suffer under its debil¬itating burden? Our faith is immature.
Jesus fed the multitude, calmed the storm, healed the lepers, raised the dead, and circumvented his enemies. Then he laid it out for us this way:
He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also. . . (Jon 14:12).

THE DUALITY OF BELIEVING
We have a measure of faith in Christ, perhaps enough to give our life for him, but what about faith in ourselves, our personal ability to emulate him, our own ability to call down the blessings and powers of heaven which are there for our utilization? Creating by faith requires both faith in Christ and faith in ones self– that we are deserving. Generic unbelief is primarily unbelief in ones self. We may firmly believe that the Lord is always prepared to give, but we may not believe in our personal access to his power and blessings:
And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive." (Mat 21:22).

"Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full." (Jon 16:24).

Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume [it] upon your lusts." (James 4:3).

Behold this is my will; ask and ye shall receive; but men do not always do my will." (D&C 103:31)

But will he really give to us? How many times have we failed to receive because of this pernicious discouragement from our beleaguering enemy, the natural man and his generic unbelief. We fail, and then attempt to vindi¬cate our failure by telling ourselves, and others that apparently it just wasn't right, or that the timing was off. Poor impotent creatures that we are. How much assurance do we need? Without faith in Christ and in ourselves, that we have the ability, we are impotent in spiritual things.

Faith in Christ:
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. (Heb 11:6).

Faith in Ones Self:
And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight." (I Jon 3:22).

Moroni’s Evaluation of Our Situation:

The prophet Moroni seeing our day, lamented our unbelief and pleaded with us to recognize our awful situation, to repent and believe.
35 Behold, I speak unto you as if ye were present, and yet ye are not. But behold, Jesus Christ hath shown you unto me, and I know your doing.
36 And I know that ye do walk in the pride of your hearts; and there are none save a few only who do not lift themselves up in the pride of their hearts, unto the wearing of very fine apparel, unto envying, and strifes, and malice, and persecutions, and all manner of iniquities; and your churches, yea, even every one, have become polluted because of the pride of your hearts.
37 For behold, ye do love money, and your substance, and your fine apparel, and the adorning of your church¬es, more than ye love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted.
38 O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of God? Why are ye ashamed to take upon you the name of Christ? Why do ye not think that greater is the value of an endless happiness than that misery which never dies because of the praise of the world?
39 Why do ye adorn yourselves with that which hath no life, and yet suffer the hungry, and the needy, and the naked, and the sick and the afflicted to pass by you, and notice them not? 40 Yea, why do ye build up your secret abominations to get gain, and cause that widows should mourn before the Lord, and also orphans to mourn before the Lord, and also the blood of their fathers and their husbands to cry unto the Lord from the ground, for vengeance upon your heads?
41 Behold, the sword of vengeance hangeth over you; and the time soon cometh that he avengeth the blood of the saints upon you, for he will not suffer their cries any longer. (Morm 8:35-41).

Moroni’s Commentary on our Unbelief:
6 O then ye unbelieving, turn ye unto the Lord; cry mightily unto the Father in the name of Jesus, that perhaps ye may be found spotless, pure, fair, and white, having been cleansed by the blood of the Lamb, at that great and last day. 7 And again I speak unto you who deny the revelations of God, and say that they are done away, that there are no revelations, nor prophecies, nor gifts, nor healing, nor speaking with tongues, and the interpretation of tongues;
8 Behold I say unto you, he that denieth these things knoweth not the gospel of Christ; yea, he has not read the scriptures; if so, he does not understand them.
9 For do we not read that God is the same yesterday, today, and forever, and in him there is no variableness neither shadow of changing? (Morm 9:6-9),

The fact that we are so disabled in exercising the spiritual gifts is, in a very real sense, a denial of belief in their existence and reality. We forbid their existence in us, in our midst, and if they exist not in the midst of the LDS, where are they to be found? Where is there a people the Lord can demonstrate his power through? Where, in this world, can a people be found that are capable of exercising the gifts spoken of by Moroni?
18 And who shall say that Jesus Christ did not many mighty miracles? And there were many mighty miracles wrought by the hands of the apostles.
19 And if there were miracles wrought then, why has God ceased to be a God of miracles and yet be an unchangeable Being? And behold, I say unto you he changeth not; if so he would cease to be God; and he ceaseth not to be God, and is a God of miracles.
20 And the reason why he ceaseth to do miracles among the children of men is because that they dwindle in unbelief, and depart from the right way, and know not the God in whom they should trust.
21 Behold, I say unto you that whoso believeth in Christ, doubting nothing, whatsoever he shall ask the Father in the name of Christ it shall be granted him; and this promise is unto all, even unto the ends of the earth . . . (Morm 9:18-21).

24 And these signs shall follow them that believe in my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; they shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick and they shall recover;

25 And whosoever shall believe in my name, doubting nothing, unto him will I confirm all my words, even unto the ends of the earth. (Morm 9:24-25).

We do not actually believe that we can create bread and fishes out of thin air even if the occasion is a matter of life and death. Jesus has most certainly promised us that if we are believing we can ask and receive, and Moroni is also emphatic:
Behold, I say unto you that whoso believeth in Christ, doubting nothing, whatsoever he shall ask the Father in the name of Christ it shall be granted him; and this promise is unto all, even unto the ends of the earth . (Morm 9:21).

But there is a lack of evidence that we are truly a believing people The entire church is under condemnation for "generic unbelief" (D&C 84:54-56). As a body, unbelief still holds us essentially impotent in administering the spiritual gifts imposing itself between us and Zion.
To the modern mind, matured in a mode of modern thinking, anything of a mystic nature is shun¬ned. Things spiritual are mystical, so while we say we believe in things spiritual, down deep within ourselves we doubt and fear. We really don’t believe. It’s a cultural phenomenon. We simply don’t believe in a common person’s ability to multiply fishes and bread or turn water into wine. We simply don’t believe even though Jesus assured us that we are capable of doing the same works he did:
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do will he do also; and great¬er works than these will he do; because I go unto my Father.” (John 14:12).

If we are not doing the works Jesus did then apparently we don’t believe what he has told us, and how can we say we believe in the man, if we reject what he has told us “as plain as word can be”. We simply are not a truly believing people:
It is time to think about these things and set our minds to do something about our unbelief which, even now, holds the whole church under condemnation.
54 And your minds in times past have been darkened because of unbelief, and because you have treated lightly the things you have received
55 Which vanity and unbelief have brought the whole church under condemnation.
56 And this condemnation resteth upon the children of Zion, even all. (D&C 84:54-56).

Jumping through a blind hoop when you know nothing of what is on the other side is a dumb thing to do unless Jesus is holding the hoop. Whatever the voice of the spirit, through the intelligence to whom we belong, bids us do is always safe and appropriate if we have learned to distinguish between that voice and the voices of doubt and fear which rise from the natural man.


This essay challenges many long standing mind-sets which we generally assume to be solid doctrine. It will, therefore, challenge the prevailing comfort zones of many who read it. The “wheat” will, by their access to the Holy Spirit, recognize truth, and embrace what the Spirit ratifies. We must seek the truth and the whole truth, never being satisfied with the precepts of men no matter where they come from nor how long they have been around. Rejecting the truth in deference to what is popular puts our exaltation at risk.
At the judgement bar we find grace if we can honestly admit our errors while knowing that we did the best we could to find the truth; However, allowing ourselves to be deceived is a fatal error, deception is not an acceptable extenuation or alibi. We cannot say: “Well, I accepted what I was told, I was obedient. You should indict my parents and others who told me what to believe.” We are responsible to find and prove the truth for ourselves, accepting no “arm of flesh”. Nephi, with all due respect for his father, whom he knew to be a prophet, sought proof for his fathers vision by asking God to show him the same things (I Nep 11:1-5).
Even a true prophet can be made an arm of flesh if we vest our faith in him without the testimony of the Holy Spirit. If our faith in an ordained leader is the product of a witness by the Holy Spirit, we are a support¬ing power to him. If we are simply clinging to his coat-tail for a free ride, we are a burden. And even if we are led as straight as an arrow, there is no virtue or benefit to our faith, and judgement will condemn us as unprofitable servants.
As President Kimball pleaded, we must abandon “the false gods we worship” (Ensign June 1976), and give our time and devotion to a quest for our true God.
And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. (Jon 17:3).

This scripture recommends an essential quest for the ultimate truth, “the truth of all things” (Moses 6:61). Our dogmatic concepts of God and man are but stepping stones to ultimate truth. They are geared to limited understandings. The stepping stones will remain until we have placed our passing footprints upon them while in quest of the “greater light and knowledge Father promised to send us”.

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Gad
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Re: Are we still under condemnation?

Post by Gad »

Original_Intent wrote:I don't think there is any question that we are.
+1

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marc
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Re: Why we are still under condemnation and what we can do.

Post by marc »

Great essay, reese. Thanks for sharing!

dauser
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Re: Why we are still under condemnation and what we can do.

Post by dauser »

56 And this condemnation resteth upon the children of Zion, even all.
Lucifer's church reaches down and condemnes the children of Zion, even all, in one form or another.

President Benson gave 24 talks on the Book Of Mormon and said the Book had 2 purposes... the first introducing us to Christ and His church and the Second exposing the enemies of Christ and what they have planned for us.

It is another testament of Lucifer and His church.

Lucifer has always had his hand in education and the dissemination of education. He loves to use government programs and government agents to push his philosophies on the children of men since the beginning...to force everyone to be good.

First Lucifer sells the tree of knowledge to Eve, Lehi sees the hoards of people feeling their way towards the great and spacious building, King Noe builds them, Amulon introduces the teaching union it the to the Lamanites under the authority of the king, and Nehor introduces the same anti-temple teacher's union to the Nephites.

Public education in the Book Of Mormon is very evident, that church denies the Christ, exercises power and authority, has prisons, furnaces, priests that oppresses by ignorance, taxation and confiscation. (4 Nephi 29-31)

The faith of home schoolers (like the 2000 strippling warriors) is challanged by government union schoolers in primary and youth classes at church. Our children are surrounded by devotees of Horrace Mann/ enforced priestcraft, an abominable combination.

The most abominable combination and wicked above all is reserved for secret combinations. (Ether 8:18)

awake
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Re: Why we are still under condemnation and what we can do.

Post by awake »

dauser wrote: The faith of home schoolers (like the 2000 strippling warriors) is challanged by government union schoolers in primary and youth classes at church. Our children are surrounded by devotees of Horrace Mann/ enforced priestcraft, an abominable combination.
Yes, it seems very true that some of the worst persecution of the Saints in these last days is coming from those 'within' the Church.

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marc
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Re: Why we are still under condemnation and what we can do.

Post by marc »

awake wrote:
Yes, it seems very true that some of the worst persecution of the Saints in these last days is coming from those 'within' the Church.
Ironically true, thus the five foolish virgins, which represents an alarming percentage in the parable, although apathy and ignorance are key factors. :(

awar_e
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Re: Why we are still under condemnation and what we can do.

Post by awar_e »

“We have known that
these combinations would
exist, that they would
increase in the midst of the
people... seeking to destroy
government, to overturn
existing institutions, and
to array class against
class, community against
community.”
Journal of Discourses—March 11, 1894

dauser
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Re: Why we are still under condemnation and what we can do.

Post by dauser »

Children are being taught socialism (Lucifer's gospel) for 3 years even before the age of accountability in government union schools.

By the time they are 8 years old they have accepted socialism, socialist sympathizers and government education installations as being somehow wholesome.

Thirteen plus years of government doctrine, assemblies, teachers, grades, bathroom passes, ect would stunt even the most valient children.

Those condemned will too condemn their children to the same and it goes on.

awar_e
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Re: Why we are still under condemnation and what we can do.

Post by awar_e »

The same thing happens when they attend BYU.

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notjamesbond003.5
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Re: Why we are still under condemnation and what we can do.

Post by notjamesbond003.5 »

I got a shorter more consise answer as brevity is the essence of wit.

Where much is given much is expected. See that you do likewise.

njb

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marc
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Re: Why we are still under condemnation and what we can do.

Post by marc »

notjamesbond003.5 wrote:I got a shorter more consise answer as brevity is the essence of wit.

Where much is given much is expected. See that you do likewise.

njb
An even shorter and pertinent answer to the topic at hand:

"Read the Book of Mormon!"--President Ezra Taft Benson


pilgrim
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Re: Why we are still under condemnation and what we can do.

Post by pilgrim »

Marc thank you for this wonderful post...I love it!! You are such a wonderful
teacher and I really feel your passion, love and desire for others to know the things you
are speaking of in regards to removing this condemantion.

These are my thoughts, but for me this condemantion is a very serious thing. I cannot tell
or write all the things I want to say or how the spirit is bringing this to me but we must remove
all of our distractions or anything that stands in the way from us individuallly coming to our Savior...
nothing must separate us! We have to want this and take it seriously, we have to get ourselves to the
point to where we let go of false traditions that are keeping us away from seeing real truth and light
for ourselves as the Master gives it to us, we must want to come to him in all humility and desire to be
with him and our Heavenly Father, we have to sincerely repent and have those sins taken away by him,
by his voice declaring it. We have to do as it states in D&C 84:54-58...and take these things seriously.

We have to want to receive the Fullness of his gospel, not just the gospel. We have to receive the testimony
of Jesus, meaning his testimony of us, you individually, and receive the everlasting covenant as the veil is parted
and at last we stand in his glorious presence to be instructed and receive and hear more! If not and so much more
our everlasting destruction is ours...it is all in the Book of Mormon. Do not procrastinate the day of your repentance.

I have a love for my Savior I cannot describe, it was given to me a couple of days ago, and it is beautiful and wonderful!
I cannot go on, I am praying and fasting to understand this. But I will follow him to the ends of the earth I know. His ways
are truth and they will save us and help us to keep progressing in all understanding, wisdom and truth of ourselves and him.
Margo.

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TZONE
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Re: Why we are still under condemnation and what we can do.

Post by TZONE »

I don't post this to cause contention sincere connection. Think there is a connection ehre?
5 And all they who receive the oracles of God, let them beware how they hold them lest they are accounted as a light thing, and are brought under condemnation thereby, and stumble and fall when the storms descend, and the winds blow, and the rains descend, and beat upon their house.
Relates oracles (ordinances) as a manner we fall under this condemnation. Book of mormon teaches these oracles. Perhaps its not just reading it but understanding the oracles taught therein? Taking teh holy spirit for our guide for one example and following it to the tree where we will fall upon our knees and partake of the love of christ.

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TZONE
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Re: Why we are still under condemnation and what we can do.

Post by TZONE »

If the whole church is under condemnation, look at what happens when one is under condemnation.

Characteristics (some of them) of those under condemnation
"under condemnation thereby, and stumble and fall when the storms descend" (90:5)
"treated lightly the oracles" (paraphrased D&C 90 vs 4-5)
" groaneth under sin and darkness even now" (vs 84:49) Light is replaced with darkness.
"bondage of sin" (vs 50)

Because why as already mentioned? We take lightly the things of the book of mormon but specially the promise and requirement of,

51 For whoso cometh not unto me is under the bondage of sin.

Thus we fall.

To remove this condemnation we must come unto the father (as coach already stated). COLLECTIVELY not individually to remove the condemnation on the whole church. (I would assume)

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marc
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Re: Why we are still under condemnation and what we can do.

Post by marc »

TZONE, personally I believe that the condemnation can be removed on an individual basis (C&E, 2nd Comforter, power in the priesthood, etc), and then it will happen on a small collective basis (those who are then called to be gatherers) and then collectively as Zion people--as Zion is established and begins to grow and flourish.

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marc
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Re: Why we are still under condemnation and what we can do.

Post by marc »

BUMP.

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Matthew.B
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Re: Why we are still under condemnation and what we can do.

Post by Matthew.B »

I think that, ultimately, the removal of the condemnation is entirely an individual endeavor. Like you mentioned earlier, Marc, when you get enough individuals together who have removed/are seeking to remove the condemnation, then you start to built up momentum. But it all starts with the individual.

Perhaps one of the remedies to the condemnation is gathering with like-minded Saints (seeking to remove the condemnation) into a tighter community. I'm focusing on doing that in my own life (starting very small, but working upward!). Those living in the Motherland (Utah) who live close together might be able to gather together.

One other thing would be to find ways to share with others ideas relating to both the condemnation, and how to get out of it (remembering the Book of Mormon, etc.). If you want to return to the religion that Joseph started, use the words of Joseph and the understanding of Joseph to revive it. The form of the religion he started is still here, but it just needs to be once again infused with the spirit of that religion. So get in contact with that Spirit, and then spread it.

I think that anyone seeking to do the will of the Lord and magnifies the opportunities (s)he's been given to share the Light of Christ with others, will be given more opportunities as time goes on. Thus will a person's sphere of influence gradually increase "without compulsory means".

Good thread, Marc.

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SkyBird
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Re: Why we are still under condemnation and what we can do.

Post by SkyBird »

It's not really about "Why we (the Church) are still under condemnation" ...it about us (individually). The Church is merely a reflection of its individual members personal relationship with god/God.

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