Why we are still under condemnation and what we can do.

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Robert Sinclair
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Re: Why we are still under condemnation and what we can do.

Post by Robert Sinclair »

Learn and write down every single thing that Jesus Christ has said to do, and how to be, and what you should know, then do them, be those ways, and know and memorize all those things perfectly. This will then be your conscious and guide, his words from God. ♡ :)

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marc
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Re: Why we are still under condemnation and what we can do.

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BUMP

For Daryl.

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marc
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Re: Why we are still under condemnation and what we can do.

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BUMP.

For Mark, viewtopic.php?f=14&t=40208" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Robert Sinclair
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Re: Why we are still under condemnation and what we can do.

Post by Robert Sinclair »

Ephraim is under condemnation, because they have more witnesses than the Jews, and Muslims, and Christian nations of the earth to be equal in their temporal things and this not grudgingly, for homes and lands, as well as food and raiment, with the poor of their house, yes "All things common", testaments in the Book of Acts, The Book of 4th Nephi, and the law the church is to embrace in D&C 42, and the honor calling and election, and invitation given in 58 to prepare this feast of fat things for the poor, a wedding feast for the poor, as a gift, to the Lamb of God, and as is required in section 70, for the very foundation of the church of the living God, that none are exempt from, of being equal in their temporal things and this not grudgingly, that they have granted all exemption from, willingly walking away, to fullfill the words written, of this House of Ephraim perfectly.

Now that this whoredom has been completed, written of the word of the LORD unto Hosea, to fullfill the scriptures written about this house, let us all fast and pray, and weep and howl, and sound the alarm as the LORD has commanded of his sheep that hear his voice, that the old men and administers of the law may give ear, as is written in the Book of Isaiah and Joel, that Hosea 14:8 may finally be fullfilled, to the great joy of us all.♡

deep water
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Re: Why we are still under condemnation and what we can do.

Post by deep water »

marc wrote:
notjamesbond003.5 wrote:I got a shorter more consise answer as brevity is the essence of wit.

Where much is given much is expected. See that you do likewise.

njb
An even shorter and pertinent answer to the topic at hand:

"Read the Book of Mormon!"--President Ezra Taft Benson
This advice falls far short of what we need to do. We should search, seek, ponder every sentence through fasting and prayer and do as the Gospel requires that is found within. That includes the Book of Isaiah, that Christ requires of us.
Last edited by deep water on October 7th, 2015, 12:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Robert Sinclair
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Re: Why we are still under condemnation and what we can do.

Post by Robert Sinclair »

Repair the breach of equity, restore the paths of justice and righteousness to dwell in, of undoing others heavy burdens, breaking every yoke of poverty, and set all of the oppressed free.♡

Robert Sinclair
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Re: Why we are still under condemnation and what we can do.

Post by Robert Sinclair »

I will give you a grand key to this question of this thread--

"Residue"

This one word used in section 42.

Why is it used?

What is to be done, and with what, before "residue" is used in D&C 42 called the "law to be embraced" by the church?

Good to know all about this word "residue" and why it is used in the "law" to be embraced in this church.

Any lawyers in this house?

Students of the law?

Ask them.♡

Maybe you are quick enough study to see this on your own.♡

I can offer more knowledge of the "law" of the church, in 42, and all about the "foundation" instructions given in 70 of being "equal in your temporal things".♡

Good to know the instructions of the LORD, on the "law"and "foundation" of the church of the living God, that none are exempt from.♡

Then once you have a sure knowledge of the "law" and "foundation" of the church of the living God that none are exempt from, and see it has been rejected, cry out for the return to keep the "law" and establish the "foundation" of the church of the living God, even as he has asked of his sheep that hear his voice, and seek to feed and recover the lost and blind and captive sheep of the House of Israel.♡

deep water
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Re: Why we are still under condemnation and what we can do.

Post by deep water »

We as a church are under condemnation until we remember two specific things. One of the two is the Book of Mormon. Some seem to think that to; The Book of Mormon, hmmm, yea I remember that, fulfills that directive. But it also tells us to do, what we remember. The second part is to remember the New Covenant. I will submit that there are many different opinions as to just what the "New Covenant" Christ was talking about, is. What is your understanding of what constitutes the New Covenant.

jwharton
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Re: Why we are still under condemnation and what we can do.

Post by jwharton »

The New Covenant pertains to building up the Father's Kingdom based upon Celestial Law.

Robert Sinclair
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Re: Why we are still under condemnation and what we can do.

Post by Robert Sinclair »

Honor the calling and election given, and bring forth and establish, the Zion of God upon this earth.♡

Follow the Mother of Harlots and Babylon, and Whore of all the earth of Inequality no more.

Atone.♡

Robert Sinclair
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Location: Redmond Oregon

Re: Why we are still under condemnation and what we can do.

Post by Robert Sinclair »

Again,

Under condemnation for rejection of the second witness of the book of Mormon----

That as in the first witness, in the Book of Acts, you are shown, that Peter leading the church, gave distribution of all things in the storehouse treasury and the wealth of the members till they had "All things common"

That as the law of the LORD given to Moses of 2 or more witnesses to establish the truth of a matter a second witness is given you of the Book of Mormon in 4th Nephi, of the fullness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ of the members of their own freewill lead, by having "All things common among them."

And so that a 3rd witness be established of the greater celestial law, the instructions on how to do this from the storehouse treasury, and a call put out to the rich and learned, the wise and noble of his true church, are given in "the law to be embraced by the church" of Doctrine and Covenants 42, the "wedding invitation feast of fat things" of 58, and the very "foundation of the church of the living God", none are exempt from of D&C section 70, with warnings in 104:15-18, if you don't do this you shall lift up your eyes from hell being in torment, and section 105:9-10, being instructed to go and learn and return to keep this celestial law.

Discuss these matters in Sunday School, Relief Society, and your Priesthood meetings, and sound the alarm as Jesus Christ has said to do.♡

None should attack you for these things, as President Hinkley admitted that the LORD no longer meets face to face, with the prophet of the church, as was the case with Joseph Smith , but through the still small voice only.

This was also foretold for the House of Ephraim, in the Book of Hosea, which should be discussed in Priesthood meetings, no one angry or upset, just open eyes to the truth of the scriptures, that these things were foretold and true, and time for Hosea 14:8 to be fullfilled.♡

diligently seeking
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Re: Why we are still under condemnation and what we can do.

Post by diligently seeking »

Essay 31.* by James Custer

FAITH AND THE POWER OF BELIEVING

Believing is the foundation of faith. It is our part of the gift of faith. When our believing meets the requirement the power of faith is bestowed. Jesus often said, “He that believeth in me . . .” He predicated all gifts and blessings on our capacity to believe. By 1832 vanity and unbelief had brought the entire church under condemnation per Doctrine and Covenants 84. And president Benson reminded us that this condemnation remains to this very day.
55 Which vanity and unbelief have brought the whole church under condemnation.
56 And this condemnation resteth upon the children of Zion, even all. (D&C 84:54-56).

THE “NATURAL MAN” AND GENERIC UNBELIEF
The hallmark of the natural man is a peculiar type of unbelief which is virtually beyond our awareness. It is a species of unbelief that leads people to deny in performance what they consciously profess to believe. There is a believing by which we speak, and a believing by which we perform; and the difference between these two realms of belief constitutes denial of what we profess. That denial is the measure of this malignant and peculiar type of unbelief, it is pervasive in its affects upon our lives like an insidious disease of which we are practically unaware even though it constantly makes us liars because we really do not perform according to the believing we profess. This peculiar pervasive unbelief could rightly be called “generic unbelief”.
After our faith has at last compelled us through sacrifice and surrender, and after the "natural man" has been secured in dungeon chains, we will still find ourselves plagued by muted cries from the dungeon: "It can't be done!". There is no evasion of the ultimate realization: we must crucify this enemy we have subdued. Even in chains he constantly molests our limited minds with his "generic unbelief". It attaches to virtually every aspect of life.
Even though we give lip service, claiming to honor and believe in faith, we are virtually paralyzed in its exercise. Jesus could, by faith, create fishes and bread, but that is not for us. Anyone claiming such power as that, in this day, would be subject to scorn, ridicule, and suspicion of Satanic possession. Slay that enemy, the natural man, and his generic unbelief, and be free of contra¬diction in the mind.
Generic unbelief? One might be compelled to exclaim: "What? I don't under¬stand; I'm a believing person! I have a testimony, I know the church is true."
Yes, we may know the church is true, what ever that means; but how well do we know the giver of that gift, Jesus Christ? To what extent do we really believe in him and in ourselves, our own ability to emulate his works?” This is where generic unbelief is manifest.
Perhaps a trite and familiar little story will clarify the term “generic unbelief”, and clearly identify its existence in us all.

A devout advocate of the gospel goes to the mountains for prayer and fasting. He is alone, and in his wandering falls over a precipitous ledge, but haply he grasps a frail branch of some little tree growing out of the rock. There he hangs, every moment threatening to over-stress his frail tenuous support, which can in no way bear up under his weight for more than a few moments. "LORD, HELP ME!" he shouts to the one he came to worship, "have I not served you faithfully?" but he has never seen the Lord, and is unable to see him at this time although he hears a distinct voice from somewhere say,
"Do you really believe I can save you?"
"OH YES LORD!"
"Then let go of that flimsy little branch."
“Lord! Why do you try me at this perilous moment?”
“What better time?”

Generic unbelief! Does this story not make it palpable? Are there any who do not suffer under its debil¬itating burden? Our faith is immature.
Jesus fed the multitude, calmed the storm, healed the lepers, raised the dead, and circumvented his enemies. Then he laid it out for us this way:
He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also. . . (Jon 14:12).

THE DUALITY OF BELIEVING
We have a measure of faith in Christ, perhaps enough to give our life for him, but what about faith in ourselves, our personal ability to emulate him, our own ability to call down the blessings and powers of heaven which are there for our utilization? Creating by faith requires both faith in Christ and faith in ones self– that we are deserving. Generic unbelief is primarily unbelief in ones self. We may firmly believe that the Lord is always prepared to give, but we may not believe in our personal access to his power and blessings:
And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive." (Mat 21:22).

"Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full." (Jon 16:24).

Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume [it] upon your lusts." (James 4:3).

Behold this is my will; ask and ye shall receive; but men do not always do my will." (D&C 103:31)

But will he really give to us? How many times have we failed to receive because of this pernicious discouragement from our beleaguering enemy, the natural man and his generic unbelief. We fail, and then attempt to vindi¬cate our failure by telling ourselves, and others that apparently it just wasn't right, or that the timing was off. Poor impotent creatures that we are. How much assurance do we need? Without faith in Christ and in ourselves, that we have the ability, we are impotent in spiritual things.

Faith in Christ:
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. (Heb 11:6).

Faith in Ones Self:
And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight." (I Jon 3:22).

Moroni’s Evaluation of Our Situation:

The prophet Moroni seeing our day, lamented our unbelief and pleaded with us to recognize our awful situation, to repent and believe.
35 Behold, I speak unto you as if ye were present, and yet ye are not. But behold, Jesus Christ hath shown you unto me, and I know your doing.
36 And I know that ye do walk in the pride of your hearts; and there are none save a few only who do not lift themselves up in the pride of their hearts, unto the wearing of very fine apparel, unto envying, and strifes, and malice, and persecutions, and all manner of iniquities; and your churches, yea, even every one, have become polluted because of the pride of your hearts.
37 For behold, ye do love money, and your substance, and your fine apparel, and the adorning of your church¬es, more than ye love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted.
38 O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of God? Why are ye ashamed to take upon you the name of Christ? Why do ye not think that greater is the value of an endless happiness than that misery which never dies because of the praise of the world?
39 Why do ye adorn yourselves with that which hath no life, and yet suffer the hungry, and the needy, and the naked, and the sick and the afflicted to pass by you, and notice them not? 40 Yea, why do ye build up your secret abominations to get gain, and cause that widows should mourn before the Lord, and also orphans to mourn before the Lord, and also the blood of their fathers and their husbands to cry unto the Lord from the ground, for vengeance upon your heads?
41 Behold, the sword of vengeance hangeth over you; and the time soon cometh that he avengeth the blood of the saints upon you, for he will not suffer their cries any longer. (Morm 8:35-41).

Moroni’s Commentary on our Unbelief:
6 O then ye unbelieving, turn ye unto the Lord; cry mightily unto the Father in the name of Jesus, that perhaps ye may be found spotless, pure, fair, and white, having been cleansed by the blood of the Lamb, at that great and last day. 7 And again I speak unto you who deny the revelations of God, and say that they are done away, that there are no revelations, nor prophecies, nor gifts, nor healing, nor speaking with tongues, and the interpretation of tongues;
8 Behold I say unto you, he that denieth these things knoweth not the gospel of Christ; yea, he has not read the scriptures; if so, he does not understand them.
9 For do we not read that God is the same yesterday, today, and forever, and in him there is no variableness neither shadow of changing? (Morm 9:6-9),

The fact that we are so disabled in exercising the spiritual gifts is, in a very real sense, a denial of belief in their existence and reality. We forbid their existence in us, in our midst, and if they exist not in the midst of the LDS, where are they to be found? Where is there a people the Lord can demonstrate his power through? Where, in this world, can a people be found that are capable of exercising the gifts spoken of by Moroni?
18 And who shall say that Jesus Christ did not many mighty miracles? And there were many mighty miracles wrought by the hands of the apostles.
19 And if there were miracles wrought then, why has God ceased to be a God of miracles and yet be an unchangeable Being? And behold, I say unto you he changeth not; if so he would cease to be God; and he ceaseth not to be God, and is a God of miracles.
20 And the reason why he ceaseth to do miracles among the children of men is because that they dwindle in unbelief, and depart from the right way, and know not the God in whom they should trust.
21 Behold, I say unto you that whoso believeth in Christ, doubting nothing, whatsoever he shall ask the Father in the name of Christ it shall be granted him; and this promise is unto all, even unto the ends of the earth . . . (Morm 9:18-21).

24 And these signs shall follow them that believe in my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; they shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick and they shall recover;

25 And whosoever shall believe in my name, doubting nothing, unto him will I confirm all my words, even unto the ends of the earth. (Morm 9:24-25).

We do not actually believe that we can create bread and fishes out of thin air even if the occasion is a matter of life and death. Jesus has most certainly promised us that if we are believing we can ask and receive, and Moroni is also emphatic:
Behold, I say unto you that whoso believeth in Christ, doubting nothing, whatsoever he shall ask the Father in the name of Christ it shall be granted him; and this promise is unto all, even unto the ends of the earth . (Morm 9:21).

But there is a lack of evidence that we are truly a believing people The entire church is under condemnation for "generic unbelief" (D&C 84:54-56). As a body, unbelief still holds us essentially impotent in administering the spiritual gifts imposing itself between us and Zion.
To the modern mind, matured in a mode of modern thinking, anything of a mystic nature is shun¬ned. Things spiritual are mystical, so while we say we believe in things spiritual, down deep within ourselves we doubt and fear. We really don’t believe. It’s a cultural phenomenon. We simply don’t believe in a common person’s ability to multiply fishes and bread or turn water into wine. We simply don’t believe even though Jesus assured us that we are capable of doing the same works he did:
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do will he do also; and great¬er works than these will he do; because I go unto my Father.” (John 14:12).

If we are not doing the works Jesus did then apparently we don’t believe what he has told us, and how can we say we believe in the man, if we reject what he has told us “as plain as word can be”. We simply are not a truly believing people:
It is time to think about these things and set our minds to do something about our unbelief which, even now, holds the whole church under condemnation.
54 And your minds in times past have been darkened because of unbelief, and because you have treated lightly the things you have received
55 Which vanity and unbelief have brought the whole church under condemnation.
56 And this condemnation resteth upon the children of Zion, even all. (D&C 84:54-56).

Jumping through a blind hoop when you know nothing of what is on the other side is a dumb thing to do unless Jesus is holding the hoop. Whatever the voice of the spirit, through the intelligence to whom we belong, bids us do is always safe and appropriate if we have learned to distinguish between that voice and the voices of doubt and fear which rise from the natural man.


This essay challenges many long standing mind-sets which we generally assume to be solid doctrine. It will, therefore, challenge the prevailing comfort zones of many who read it. The “wheat” will, by their access to the Holy Spirit, recognize truth, and embrace what the Spirit ratifies. We must seek the truth and the whole truth, never being satisfied with the precepts of men no matter where they come from nor how long they have been around. Rejecting the truth in deference to what is popular puts our exaltation at risk.
At the judgement bar we find grace if we can honestly admit our errors while knowing that we did the best we could to find the truth; However, allowing ourselves to be deceived is a fatal error, deception is not an acceptable extenuation or alibi. We cannot say: “Well, I accepted what I was told, I was obedient. You should indict my parents and others who told me what to believe.” We are responsible to find and prove the truth for ourselves, accepting no “arm of flesh”. Nephi, with all due respect for his father, whom he knew to be a prophet, sought proof for his fathers vision by asking God to show him the same things (I Nep 11:1-5).
Even a true prophet can be made an arm of flesh if we vest our faith in him without the testimony of the Holy Spirit. If our faith in an ordained leader is the product of a witness by the Holy Spirit, we are a support¬ing power to him. If we are simply clinging to his coat-tail for a free ride, we are a burden. And even if we are led as straight as an arrow, there is no virtue or benefit to our faith, and judgement will condemn us as unprofitable servants.
As President Kimball pleaded, we must abandon “the false gods we worship” (Ensign June 1976), and give our time and devotion to a quest for our true God.
And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. (Jon 17:3).

This scripture recommends an essential quest for the ultimate truth, “the truth of all things” (Moses 6:61). Our dogmatic concepts of God and man are but stepping stones to ultimate truth. They are geared to limited understandings. The stepping stones will remain until we have placed our passing footprints upon them while in quest of the “greater light and knowledge Father promised to send us”.

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marc
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Re: Why we are still under condemnation and what we can do.

Post by marc »

God exempts nobody.
Ether 4:13 Come unto me, O ye Gentiles, and I will show unto you the greater things, the knowledge which is hid up because of unbelief.
14 Come unto me, O ye house of Israel, and it shall be made manifest unto you how great things the Father hath laid up for you, from the foundation of the world; and it hath not come unto you, because of unbelief.
15 Behold, when ye shall rend that veil of unbelief which doth cause you to remain in your awful state of wickedness, and hardness of heart, and blindness of mind, then shall the great and marvelous things which have been hid up from the foundation of the world from you—yea, when ye shall call upon the Father in my name, with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, then shall ye know that the Father hath remembered the covenant which he made unto your fathers, O house of Israel.
Until one parts the veil as Enoch, Moses, the brother of Jared, and others, one is kept from “remembering” or “knowing” the covenant because of unbelief. It is this unbelief, which keeps one:

1. In an awful state of wickedness
2. Hardness of heart
3. blindness of mind

Or in other words, under condemnation.

The Lord commanded Moroni to write them, and so he did:
Ether 4:4 Behold, I have written upon these plates the very things which the brother of Jared saw; and there never were greater things made manifest than those which were made manifest unto the brother of Jared.
5 Wherefore the Lord hath commanded me to write them; and I have written them. And he commanded me that I should seal them up; and he also hath commanded that I should seal up the interpretation thereof; wherefore I have sealed up the interpreters, according to the commandment of the Lord.
6 For the Lord said unto me: They shall not go forth unto the Gentiles until the day that they shall repent of their iniquity, and become clean before the Lord.
7 And in that day that they shall exercise faith in me, saith the Lord, even as the brother of Jared did, that they may become sanctified in me, then will I manifest unto them the things which the brother of Jared saw, even to the unfolding unto them all my revelations, saith Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of the heavens and of the earth, and all things that in them are.
But if the Gentiles have been made clean, who has seen the things the brother of Jared saw? And if members of the church are the House of Israel, then who has seen the things the brother of Jared saw? Who has unfolded all the revelations? If nobody, then why not?

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Arenera
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Re: Why we are still under condemnation and what we can do.

Post by Arenera »

marc wrote: August 16th, 2017, 3:01 pm God exempts nobody.
Ether 4:13 Come unto me, O ye Gentiles, and I will show unto you the greater things, the knowledge which is hid up because of unbelief.
14 Come unto me, O ye house of Israel, and it shall be made manifest unto you how great things the Father hath laid up for you, from the foundation of the world; and it hath not come unto you, because of unbelief.
15 Behold, when ye shall rend that veil of unbelief which doth cause you to remain in your awful state of wickedness, and hardness of heart, and blindness of mind, then shall the great and marvelous things which have been hid up from the foundation of the world from you—yea, when ye shall call upon the Father in my name, with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, then shall ye know that the Father hath remembered the covenant which he made unto your fathers, O house of Israel.
Until one parts the veil as Enoch, Moses, the brother of Jared, and others, one is kept from “remembering” or “knowing” the covenant because of unbelief. It is this unbelief, which keeps one:

1. In an awful state of wickedness
2. Hardness of heart
3. blindness of mind

Or in other words, under condemnation.

The Lord commanded Moroni to write them, and so he did:
Ether 4:4 Behold, I have written upon these plates the very things which the brother of Jared saw; and there never were greater things made manifest than those which were made manifest unto the brother of Jared.
5 Wherefore the Lord hath commanded me to write them; and I have written them. And he commanded me that I should seal them up; and he also hath commanded that I should seal up the interpretation thereof; wherefore I have sealed up the interpreters, according to the commandment of the Lord.
6 For the Lord said unto me: They shall not go forth unto the Gentiles until the day that they shall repent of their iniquity, and become clean before the Lord.
7 And in that day that they shall exercise faith in me, saith the Lord, even as the brother of Jared did, that they may become sanctified in me, then will I manifest unto them the things which the brother of Jared saw, even to the unfolding unto them all my revelations, saith Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of the heavens and of the earth, and all things that in them are.
But if the Gentiles have been made clean, who has seen the things the brother of Jared saw? And if members of the church are the House of Israel, then who has seen the things the brother of Jared saw? Who has unfolded all the revelations? If nobody, then why not?
So everyone is under condemnation.

Well, what about Alma 12:9?
9 And now Alma began to expound these things unto him, saying: It is given unto many to know the mysteries of God; nevertheless they are laid under a strict command that they shall not impart only according to the portion of his word which he doth grant unto the children of men, according to the heed and diligence which they give unto him.

So did Denver get an exemption from the not impart?

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marc
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Re: Why we are still under condemnation and what we can do.

Post by marc »

And yet Alma proceeded to expound mysteries to Zeezrom and all present who then took the believers and burned them alive along with their scriptures while Alma and Amulek were imprisoned.

Arenera, I have no clue what exemptions Denver did or didn't get. Are you trying to pigeonhole me as others have tried to do?

But to answer your question, "Is everyone under condemnation?" I will tell you that I have not yet parted the veil of unbelief, so I will say I am still under condemnation. If you haven't parted the veil of unbelief, then so are you.

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Arenera
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Re: Why we are still under condemnation and what we can do.

Post by Arenera »

marc wrote: August 16th, 2017, 3:34 pm And yet Alma proceeded to expound mysteries to Zeezrom and all present who then took the believers and burned them alive along with their scriptures while Alma and Amulek were imprisoned.

Arenera, I have no clue what exemptions Denver did or didn't get. Are you trying to pigeonhole me as others have tried to do?

But to answer your question, "Is everyone under condemnation?" I will tell you that I have not yet parted the veil of unbelief, so I will say I am still under condemnation. If you haven't parted the veil of unbelief, then so are you.
I am not trying to put words in your mouth, just trying to understand.

If I am understanding correctly, unless a person has seen Christ, they are under condemnation. I personally don't think that is what condemnation means. If it does, then might as well flood the earth again because all are under condemnation.

I think that is quite stringent, I would hope God loves us more than to throw us all away. You have strived valiantly to see Christ and aren't there yet. I know a couple of people who have said they have, yet I believe Denver is a false prophet so I don't believe him.

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marc
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Re: Why we are still under condemnation and what we can do.

Post by marc »

Gotcha. Well, I explained in more detail in the OP, but to quote the D&C:
56 And this condemnation resteth upon the children of Zion, even all.

57 And they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon and the former commandments which I have given them, not only to say, but to do according to that which I have written...
I don't know if condemnation is a terrible thing or just a bad thing. I do know that a loving God eagerly desires to bring us all back into His presence (parting the veil) and is why He calls us the "children" of Zion. We haven't yet matured into a terrestrial people who are one heart, one mind, dwell in righteousness and have no poor among us. I just know that time is getting really short. That's what worries me. But I can only try to inform and persuade.

diligently seeking
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Re: Why we are still under condemnation and what we can do.

Post by diligently seeking »

Arenera wrote: August 16th, 2017, 3:19 pm
marc wrote: August 16th, 2017, 3:01 pm God exempts nobody.
Ether 4:13 Come unto me, O ye Gentiles, and I will show unto you the greater things, the knowledge which is hid up because of unbelief.
14 Come unto me, O ye house of Israel, and it shall be made manifest unto you how great things the Father hath laid up for you, from the foundation of the world; and it hath not come unto you, because of unbelief.
15 Behold, when ye shall rend that veil of unbelief which doth cause you to remain in your awful state of wickedness, and hardness of heart, and blindness of mind, then shall the great and marvelous things which have been hid up from the foundation of the world from you—yea, when ye shall call upon the Father in my name, with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, then shall ye know that the Father hath remembered the covenant which he made unto your fathers, O house of Israel.
Until one parts the veil as Enoch, Moses, the brother of Jared, and others, one is kept from “remembering” or “knowing” the covenant because of unbelief. It is this unbelief, which keeps one:

1. In an awful state of wickedness
2. Hardness of heart
3. blindness of mind

Or in other words, under condemnation.

The Lord commanded Moroni to write them, and so he did:
Ether 4:4 Behold, I have written upon these plates the very things which the brother of Jared saw; and there never were greater things made manifest than those which were made manifest unto the brother of Jared.
5 Wherefore the Lord hath commanded me to write them; and I have written them. And he commanded me that I should seal them up; and he also hath commanded that I should seal up the interpretation thereof; wherefore I have sealed up the interpreters, according to the commandment of the Lord.
6 For the Lord said unto me: They shall not go forth unto the Gentiles until the day that they shall repent of their iniquity, and become clean before the Lord.
7 And in that day that they shall exercise faith in me, saith the Lord, even as the brother of Jared did, that they may become sanctified in me, then will I manifest unto them the things which the brother of Jared saw, even to the unfolding unto them all my revelations, saith Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of the heavens and of the earth, and all things that in them are.
But if the Gentiles have been made clean, who has seen the things the brother of Jared saw? And if members of the church are the House of Israel, then who has seen the things the brother of Jared saw? Who has unfolded all the revelations? If nobody, then why not?
So everyone is under condemnation.

Well, what about Alma 12:9?
9 And now Alma began to expound these things unto him, saying: It is given unto many to know the mysteries of God; nevertheless they are laid under a strict command that they shall not impart only according to the portion of his word which he doth grant unto the children of men, according to the heed and diligence which they give unto him.

So did Denver get an exemption from the not impart?

Arenera, Keep reading. The descending verses have the answer for you in regards to the mysteries of God and what comes and what does not come when we receive them or choose not to receive them. Also, you're not understanding the verse that you quoted-- to have the mysteries imparted is to know the mysteries. Joseph Smith and other key figures in the restoration imparted a slew of mysteries to members of the church. No Doubt like you and myself and others we like them ( having the Mysteries told and taught to us) enough. we believe them almost enough, but to know is to have heaven impart them to us. Arenera, the descending verses from the one that you quoted explain after our heed and diligence and having the right heart / a heart that is open / believing and not hard --- then we are in the position to be endowed to know nothing doubting no strings attached no borrowed light and knowledge from others... It is instructive to count how many times in that first book of Nephi that the condition of one's heart either restricts or allows the mysteries of God to be received. Laman and Lemuel had many things imparted unto them that were mysteries revealed which if they gave strict head and diligence the windows of Heaven could have opened to them as they did for nephi... But, they would not as the scripture says understand and know God's dealings for them-- their hearts were hard--- hence they murmured and complained and the condemnation for not receiving God's salvational mysteries remained for them... When our hearts are not right-- murmuring and complainning takes on many faces and emotions--- you agree? All of us if we want to advance in Father's Kingdom will have to be received by Jesus and receive his comfort to receive his promise of exaltation etc. There's no way around that. Whether this occurs in the split-second between life and death or in our very much alive and awakened state in the second estate etc-- The Keeper of the gate even Jesus Christ who employes no servant there --he will determine / promise us the reward for our belief / faithfulness... That is why the more knowledge and experience we gained in the here and now the better it will be for us in the Life to Come-- yes?

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Arenera
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Re: Why we are still under condemnation and what we can do.

Post by Arenera »

JaredBees wrote: August 16th, 2017, 6:52 pm
Arenera wrote: August 16th, 2017, 3:19 pm
marc wrote: August 16th, 2017, 3:01 pm God exempts nobody.
Ether 4:13 Come unto me, O ye Gentiles, and I will show unto you the greater things, the knowledge which is hid up because of unbelief.
14 Come unto me, O ye house of Israel, and it shall be made manifest unto you how great things the Father hath laid up for you, from the foundation of the world; and it hath not come unto you, because of unbelief.
15 Behold, when ye shall rend that veil of unbelief which doth cause you to remain in your awful state of wickedness, and hardness of heart, and blindness of mind, then shall the great and marvelous things which have been hid up from the foundation of the world from you—yea, when ye shall call upon the Father in my name, with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, then shall ye know that the Father hath remembered the covenant which he made unto your fathers, O house of Israel.
Until one parts the veil as Enoch, Moses, the brother of Jared, and others, one is kept from “remembering” or “knowing” the covenant because of unbelief. It is this unbelief, which keeps one:

1. In an awful state of wickedness
2. Hardness of heart
3. blindness of mind

Or in other words, under condemnation.

The Lord commanded Moroni to write them, and so he did:
Ether 4:4 Behold, I have written upon these plates the very things which the brother of Jared saw; and there never were greater things made manifest than those which were made manifest unto the brother of Jared.
5 Wherefore the Lord hath commanded me to write them; and I have written them. And he commanded me that I should seal them up; and he also hath commanded that I should seal up the interpretation thereof; wherefore I have sealed up the interpreters, according to the commandment of the Lord.
6 For the Lord said unto me: They shall not go forth unto the Gentiles until the day that they shall repent of their iniquity, and become clean before the Lord.
7 And in that day that they shall exercise faith in me, saith the Lord, even as the brother of Jared did, that they may become sanctified in me, then will I manifest unto them the things which the brother of Jared saw, even to the unfolding unto them all my revelations, saith Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of the heavens and of the earth, and all things that in them are.
But if the Gentiles have been made clean, who has seen the things the brother of Jared saw? And if members of the church are the House of Israel, then who has seen the things the brother of Jared saw? Who has unfolded all the revelations? If nobody, then why not?
So everyone is under condemnation.

Well, what about Alma 12:9?
9 And now Alma began to expound these things unto him, saying: It is given unto many to know the mysteries of God; nevertheless they are laid under a strict command that they shall not impart only according to the portion of his word which he doth grant unto the children of men, according to the heed and diligence which they give unto him.

So did Denver get an exemption from the not impart?

Arenera, Keep reading. The descending verses have the answer for you in regards to the mysteries of God and what comes and what does not come when we receive them or choose not to receive them. Also, you're not understanding the verse that you quoted-- to have the mysteries imparted is to know the mysteries. Joseph Smith and other key figures in the restoration imparted a slew of mysteries to members of the church. No Doubt like you and myself and others we like them ( having the Mysteries told and taught to us) enough. we believe them almost enough, but to know is to have heaven impart them to us. Arenera, the descending verses from the one that you quoted explain after our heed and diligence and having the right heart / a heart that is open / believing and not hard --- then we are in the position to be endowed to know nothing doubting no strings attached no borrowed light and knowledge from others... It is instructive to count how many times in that first book of Nephi that the condition of one's heart either restricts or allows the mysteries of God to be received. Laman and Lemuel had many things imparted unto them that were mysteries revealed which if they gave strict head and diligence the windows of Heaven could have opened to them as they did for nephi... But, they would not as the scripture says understand and know God's dealings for them-- their hearts were hard--- hence they murmured and complained and the condemnation for not receiving God's salvational mysteries remained for them... When our hearts are not right-- murmuring and complainning takes on many faces and emotions--- you agree? All of us if we want to advance in Father's Kingdom will have to be received by Jesus and receive his comfort to receive his promise of exaltation etc. There's no way around that. Whether this occurs in the split-second between life and death or in our very much alive and awakened state in the second estate etc-- The Keeper of the gate even Jesus Christ who employes no servant there --he will determine / promise us the reward for our belief / faithfulness... That is why the more knowledge and experience we gained in the here and now the better it will be for us in the Life to Come-- yes?
Thomas knew but doubted. Jesus said those that believe but have not seen are blessed.

So, seeing Christ is definitely in the scriptures. I don't believe that the condemnation is not having seen Christ. It seems like you are looking beyond the mark. Our living prophets and apostles do not teach this.

diligently seeking
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Posts: 1272

Re: Why we are still under condemnation and what we can do.

Post by diligently seeking »

Arenera wrote: August 16th, 2017, 7:42 pm
JaredBees wrote: August 16th, 2017, 6:52 pm
Arenera wrote: August 16th, 2017, 3:19 pm
marc wrote: August 16th, 2017, 3:01 pm God exempts nobody.



Until one parts the veil as Enoch, Moses, the brother of Jared, and others, one is kept from “remembering” or “knowing” the covenant because of unbelief. It is this unbelief, which keeps one:

1. In an awful state of wickedness
2. Hardness of heart
3. blindness of mind

Or in other words, under condemnation.

The Lord commanded Moroni to write them, and so he did:



But if the Gentiles have been made clean, who has seen the things the brother of Jared saw? And if members of the church are the House of Israel, then who has seen the things the brother of Jared saw? Who has unfolded all the revelations? If nobody, then why not?
So everyone is under condemnation.

Well, what about Alma 12:9?
9 And now Alma began to expound these things unto him, saying: It is given unto many to know the mysteries of God; nevertheless they are laid under a strict command that they shall not impart only according to the portion of his word which he doth grant unto the children of men, according to the heed and diligence which they give unto him.

So did Denver get an exemption from the not impart?

Arenera, Keep reading. The descending verses have the answer for you in regards to the mysteries of God and what comes and what does not come when we receive them or choose not to receive them. Also, you're not understanding the verse that you quoted-- to have the mysteries imparted is to know the mysteries. Joseph Smith and other key figures in the restoration imparted a slew of mysteries to members of the church. No Doubt like you and myself and others we like them ( having the Mysteries told and taught to us) enough. we believe them almost enough, but to know is to have heaven impart them to us. Arenera, the descending verses from the one that you quoted explain after our heed and diligence and having the right heart / a heart that is open / believing and not hard --- then we are in the position to be endowed to know nothing doubting no strings attached no borrowed light and knowledge from others... It is instructive to count how many times in that first book of Nephi that the condition of one's heart either restricts or allows the mysteries of God to be received. Laman and Lemuel had many things imparted unto them that were mysteries revealed which if they gave strict head and diligence the windows of Heaven could have opened to them as they did for nephi... But, they would not as the scripture says understand and know God's dealings for them-- their hearts were hard--- hence they murmured and complained and the condemnation for not receiving God's salvational mysteries remained for them... When our hearts are not right-- murmuring and complainning takes on many faces and emotions--- you agree? All of us if we want to advance in Father's Kingdom will have to be received by Jesus and receive his comfort to receive his promise of exaltation etc. There's no way around that. Whether this occurs in the split-second between life and death or in our very much alive and awakened state in the second estate etc-- The Keeper of the gate even Jesus Christ who employes no servant there --he will determine / promise us the reward for our belief / faithfulness... That is why the more knowledge and experience we gained in the here and now the better it will be for us in the Life to Come-- yes?
Thomas knew but doubted. Jesus said those that believe but have not seen are blessed.

So, seeing Christ is definitely in the scriptures. I don't believe that the condemnation is not having seen Christ. It seems like you are looking beyond the mark. Our living prophets and apostles do not teach this.

They (living Apostles and Prophets in this dispensation) surely did teach the significance of obtaining gods gifts and assurances of eternal life-- in this life. The question should be asked why has the encouragement of receiving such blessings stopped? Maybe Joseph Smith and other oracles were just overzealous and got it wrong and current group of leaders are getting it right? Or, maybe Doctrine covenants section 84 after reading it sheds greater light on this subject? I would encourage you to prayerfully read it in connection with the things that you said-- and what I'm mentioning and alluding to here.

diligently seeking
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Posts: 1272

Re: Why we are still under condemnation and what we can do.

Post by diligently seeking »

A good quote to consider, again, as you read Doctrine and Covenants section 84.


"Said the Prophet Joseph Smith after one of the most revelatory meetings in his life, “There was nothing made known to these men [the Twelve] but what will be made known to all the Saints of the last days, so soon as they are prepared to receive” (Teachings, p. 237). This is the religion of every man. Not “Take my word for my experience,” but “Duplicate it in your own life.” How far do I go with this? All the way.

Let me then come to a close. I have hiked, with my wife and at night, all the way from the base of what is known as Mt. Sinai to the top. (Incidentally, with a very sore toe. Climbing hurts, and the more you climb, sometimes the more it hurts.) We went up to where the air is thinner and the veil thinner. There isn’t time to describe the feeling, but we were able to recollect that Moses, there, had face-to-face communion with God. He came back down and said to the children of Israel, in the name of the God whose name he knew, “Now, you are invited to go back up with me.”

And they said, “Thank you. No. That’s for prophets. That’s for people who are a bit fanatical. We will stay here and you go up, Moses.”

In his absence they built an idol. The power of religious impulses goes in many directions. They built an idol—a thing—and were denied the privileges of Moses (D&C 84:23–25). That is what our generation is now doing again. We are staying down below and then claiming superiority for our judgment in doing so.” Truman G. Madsen, On How We Know, BYU Devotional Address, Sept. 20, 1994

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Durzan
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Posts: 3728
Location: Standing between the Light and the Darkness.

Re: Why we are still under condemnation and what we can do.

Post by Durzan »

I recall something the Spirit whispered to me in my mind one time.

What it said was this: "Only a righteous descendant of Joseph or Hyrum Smith can bring the Church out of condemnation."

In other words, the church will only be redeemed when a righteous man with Smith blood running through his veins is called of God and legitimately anointed as President of the Church.

gardener4life
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Posts: 1690

Re: Why we are still under condemnation and what we can do.

Post by gardener4life »

Durzan, that's a priesthood lineage descendant not a blood descendant. So the priesthood descendant would be the current prophet.

Also in regards to the other comments, the scriptures in the D&C about condemnation clearly show what it's from;

Doctrine and Covenants 20:15
15 But those who harden their hearts in unbelief, and reject it, it shall turn to their own condemnation—

Doctrine and Covenants 5:18
18 And their testimony shall also go forth unto the condemnation of this generation if theybharden their hearts against them;

Doctrine and Covenants 67:8
8 But if ye cannot make one like unto it, ye are under condemnation if ye do not bear record that they are true.

Someone else asked if everyone is under condemnation. There are explanations for this too.

Doctrine and Covenants 105:7
7 I speak not concerning those who are appointed to lead my people, who are the first elders of my church, for they are not all under this condemnation;

There are other sections too where not everyone is shown to be under condemnation.

Doctrine and Covenants 23:1,3-5
1 Behold, I speak unto you, Oliver, a few words. Behold, thou art blessed, and art under no condemnation. But beware of pride, lest thou shouldst enter into temptation.

lundbaek
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Re: Why we are still under condemnation and what we can do.

Post by lundbaek »

The most interesting and exciting part of writings by and about Wilford Woodruff to me are those about his encounter in the St George Temple with those who appeared to him and "demanded" that he see to their temple ordinances. While on a mission at the Family History Library in SLC I was able to read and make a photocopy of the pages of the record book that show the recording of the baptisms of George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin and about 100 others who had their baptisms done for them by proxy at that time in August of 1877.

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marc
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Re: Why we are still under condemnation and what we can do.

Post by marc »

I remember the days before I went on my mission when President Ezra Taft Benson emphasized to read the Book of Mormon and to flood the Earth with the Book of Mormon. When he was called to succeed President Kimball and was sustained the 13th president of the church, his "inaugural" address emphasized removing the condemnation from us as a church. In his first talk in the April 1986 General conference, he declared:
...As I have sought direction from the Lord, I have had reaffirmed in my mind and heart the declaration of the Lord to “say nothing but repentance unto this generation.” (D&C 6:9; D&C 11:9.)...

...We must respond by saying that all is not well in Zion. As Moroni counseled, we must cleanse the inner vessel (see Alma 60:23), beginning first with ourselves, then with our families, and finally with the Church...

...Unless we read the Book of Mormon and give heed to its teachings, the Lord has stated in section 84 of the Doctrine and Covenants that the whole Church is under condemnation: “And this condemnation resteth upon the children of Zion, even all.” (D&C 84:56.) The Lord continues: “And they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon and the former commandments which I have given them, not only to say, but to do according to that which I have written.” (D&C 84:57.)...

...“That they may bring forth fruit meet for their Father’s kingdom; otherwise there remaineth a scourge and judgment to be poured out upon the children of Zion.” (D&C 84:58.) We have felt that scourge and judgment!...https://www.lds.org/general-conference/ ... l?lang=eng
In the Bible, we learn about finding "rest" while in the flesh:
Matthew 11:28 ¶ Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Hebrews 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.

2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
But the Book of Mormon teaches us "how" to find that rest. This is the crux of the message, but not only to "say," but to "do."
Moroni 7:3 Wherefore, I would speak unto you that are of the church, that are the peaceable followers of Christ, and that have obtained a sufficient hope by which ye can enter into the rest of the Lord, from this time henceforth until ye shall rest with him in heaven...
We read in Ether 4, which I have quoted in another topic, Moroni giving to us the words of Jesus Christ admonishing us all to enter into that rest as the brother of Jared did. And that rest is to receive the fullness of His glory. This is the fullness, which the ancient Israelites rejected when the Lord offered it to them from the top of the mountain.
D&C 84:24 But they hardened their hearts and could not endure his presence; therefore, the Lord in his wrath, for his anger was kindled against them, swore that they should not enter into his rest while in the wilderness, which rest is the fulness of his glory.

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