The Fastest Way to Make Your Calling and Election Sure

[Amonhi]

Do we have agency in the matter?

Yes, Father never remove your agency. Only the adversary seeks to do such.

With agency we have possibility. The more agency, the more possibility. The less agency the less possibility. With endless agency we have the endless possibility to progress, in this life or the next. Only we set the bounds and limits of our progression. Some people progress in one year what others do in their entire life time.

Please explain why there is need for an anointment or appointment?

The Messiah was foreordained to be the Holy One of Israel. He had the age and priesthood to bear the commandments given Him. JS, Moses, Noah, and others have similar Anointments and appointments or callings (foreordinations). They also at their place in the path, have the age and priesthood to bear their callings. Jonah is a good example of one who wish to run and hid from such a divine appointment. Even JS was given a choice about CPM, to teach it or not (if you believe such stories). If this were not the case or true, then a G_d who is no respecter of persons, would have to give you the same First Vision in the grove experience if you were to attempt the same thing and were equally righteous. BUT because JS was Anointed and appointed, his received such where no one else has received the same (except those of the same Anointments and appointments or callings (foreordinations, like Moses, Noah, and others ave similar callings and at the same place upon the eternal path!

hmmm. I take it you believe in multiple lives? What is the age and priesthood you are talking about gaining over time and with greater experience? If two people lived to be the a few eons old, would they have the same priesthood and calling? Do you believe that one person can run faster than another person and progress 2x, 3x, 10x or more faster than another person?

Even one sin will keep us out of God's presence if not remitted. It doesn't matter what the sin is either, because if we break any one point of the law (all commandments) we become a transgressor of the whole law.

You are correct from a lower law view point. Have you considered the fact that we sinned in the presence of God before being born? And we were not cast out of His presence before we were born? Do you know about that? What is your take on that?

I do not have to 'consider it', for even though you state it as a fact, there is no facts! We know that a third part of heaven did rebel and sin in the presence of the Father, and they were cast out. They become sons of Perdition, they will never be allowed to return unto His presence again.

I started a new thread for this discussion as it seem to not be a well known fact. We can discuss Sin in the pre-mortal world [urlhttp://www.ldsfreedomforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=34382]HERE[/url]. I already presented a quote from LDS authored "The Life and Teachings of Christ and the Apostles" student manual to start that discussion.

FreedomForAll is correct! All you have to do is keep all of the commandments and repent of every transgression and your in the Father's kingdom.

As I pointed out using the scriptures in my last post, that is a fools errand. The law never made anyone perfect. If you live by the law you will be judged by the law and all who are under the law are cursed. One of the reasons the law will never make a person perfect is that by obeying the law you remain selfish and a natural man. You can obey the law without being loving and use the law to do bad things like the pharisees who tried to use the law to bind Jesus, force his had to do evil and even condemn him. The law makes us more selfish. It puts our focus on "What will happen to me if I do this?" rather than, "What will happen to others if I do this?" You become more concerned about the punishments coming back on you if you break the law and not concerned about what is actually moral or how you are effecting others. In addition, your doctrine also frustrates grace and invalidates the atonement. Your doctrine is addressed here saying that if you live by the law, you will not have grace and you will be judged by the law:

Galatians 2:21
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

4 Now to him who is justified by the law of works, is the reward reckoned, not of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that seeketh not to be justified by the law of works, but believeth on him who justifieth not the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Romans 4:14
14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:

You said,

Or just keep one of the adversary precepts, deceptions, or lies and refuse to repent of it and your in his kingdom. What is my take on that? It is a made up doctrine to deceive the innocent and foolish!

I guess it depends on your intention... If you are intentionally going to keep one of the adversary's precepts, deceptions or lies, knowing that it is such, then sure your are his. But who really does that? Who says, I know I believe a lie but I am going to keep believing it? Telestial people?..Maybe?..But not even them knowingly and willingly... God placed enmity between the seed of the woman and Satan. So even the natural man must view himself justified and right in his own mind.

I learned from Alma 13 that there was sin in the pre-mortal world while in the presence of God. And this is confirmed clearly by church doctrine. In the beginning we were on the same standing...but over time some lived better and became qualified for a Holy Calling and priesthood which was prepared with and according to "a preparatory redemption".

I said the same thing you just said, only I pointed out those who did were cast out, you seem to think their is some who did and were not cast out. That is not in the doctrine! Alma 13 just proves my declaration...

Yes, we all sinned in the pre-mortal world while in God's presence. Some more than others. Satan et al. were cast out for attempting to destroy the agency of man, not for sinning. The "Preparatory Redemption" did nothing for Satan et al. who were cast out, hence they were cast out and not redeemed in preparation for the second estate. Perhaps sin is the wrong word as it is confusing. If a person under the law breaks the law, it is called sin. If a person outside of the law or not under he law acts contrary to God's will, then its called a transgression. So it might be more correct to say that we transgressed in the presence of God before we were born. I used the word sin because that is what the church doctrine calls it. And yes we did... (Discuss this concept HERE)

[James 2:10
10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

When you are under the law, you are right. But, remember,

24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. – Gal. 3:24-25

If we are not under the law, then we can't sin against it, even in the least degree.

Poppycock... The Scriptures are given to the young and those who are spiritually asleep. It comes by those who know the voice of the Lord. Hence it is those souls, the young and those who are spiritually asleep that need the schoolmaster. But when you awaken or mature some, you begin to develop faith, and from faith, come knowledge and remorse and it leads you to repentance. That is how you become 'justified by faith', through works, not that you can works off one sin in and by yourself, but through works you show forth your willingness to try to no longer sin, and bring forth fruits worthy of forgiveness through His merciful Son's grace and love for you.

I can see where you are coming from. I think it is funny that you said we are justified by faith trough works...which seems to be a way of saying we are justified by works and not really faith. But then we are getting into the whole faith vs works and which comes first the chicken or the eggs... The thing is that if you have to try to be good and do good, it is because you are not good by nature. If you have to try to be nice to others, then it is because you are not nice to others. It isn't in your nature. If you are selfish, then that is your nature and you haven't had the change of heart, been born again, born of God. If your nature is changed and you are born of God, then you would have to try to do evil because it isn't in your nature. You would have to work at it just as much as a carnal man has to work at being good. This is because of our nature which is carnal and devilish or spiritual and Godly.

If you are under the law, you are carnal and devilish. That's why the law was given and who the law was given to. You can't live the law perfectly in the hopes of qualifying for the CK because "no man/woman is justified by the law" and "the law never made anyone perfect". Not even Jesus Christ. Perfection is not attained by living the law and commandments perfectly. This is one of the things that almost everyone gets stuck on and they focus all their effort in the wrong direction and never learn the truth and so never attain the reward. That is why the scripture says, of those who achieve the Terrestrial but not the Celestial,

"75 These are they who are honorable men of the earth, who were blinded by the craftiness of men." - D&C 76:75

Don't focus on obeying the law. Focus on being loving and gaining charity. God is love and when you become love, you will be like God. Love fulfills all the laws and all the prophets. Focus on learning love and being love and acting in love and forget how many ear rings you can have or how long your shirt shoulder cuffs need to be, or what you can do on Sunday. And keep the spirit with you always because,

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. - Gal. 5:22

If the spirit tells you to act on love, joy, peace, longsuffering, etc. and you acting by the spirit in those things causes you to break the law, then you are justified because there can be no law against these things.

At this point you are now prepared to start following the Father personally, rather then the writings from other men who are trying to follow the Father themselves, and have left there testament or derived the Father's words. It is an 'Arm of Flesh' thing! G_d wants His children to worship Him personally. That was the great sin in Moses's day, when the children of Yesrael refused to ascend the mount into His presence and worship Him directly.

I assent.

So, yes a lessor law was given for those who refused to worship Him personally. However, that is NOT what is taught in the Temples of the Most High! So, you think, 'If we are not under the law, then we can't sin against it, even in the least degree.' What a bucket of dung!

yes, that is what I believe and I provided quite a number of scriptures that say that exactly.

Without the law, we cannot sin. The scriptures are VERY clear and repetitive on this point.

Alma 42:17
17 Now, how could a man repent except he should sin? How could he sin if there was no law? How could there be a law save there was a punishment?

Yes these things are true... no need to repent of a sin that was never done (Original Sin)! The law was first given, and the punishment was then set and declared. That is true action of principles in eternal truth.

If the law is removed, can there be a sin? For example to some, God said you can only have 1 wife and no concubines. To others God said, This law does not apply to you and you may have many wives, etc. Is the person who has many wives under condemnation for the law given to the person who is only allowed 1 wife?

1 Corinthians 15:56
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

Romans 5:13

Yes, all mankind must die because of the wages of sin is death. Only the Son of G_d who was Born (Sired) of G_d never sinned and death had no claim upon Him!

If I recall correctly, Jesus died. He had power over life and death. This power is given to all who are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise and made priests and priestesses having received all that God has. (But they have to learn to use it.) See D&C 76:50-70 Jesus learned obedience by the things which he suffered, just as we do. He didn't do anything that is outside of our reach or he would not be an example of what we can do and achieve.

13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Romans 7:8
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

If we fulfill the law, not break it or ignore it, but fulfill it, then we are no longer subject to it. It was truly our school master to bring us to Christ and once that faith is come we are no longer under a school master, Gal. 3:24-25.
The law was ADDDED or given in addition to what was without the law. And it will be subtracted again when it is fulfilled. We are under the law TILL or UNTIL...

The Jews thought the same as you, 'If we fulfill the law...' as if any man can keep the whole law, save the Messiah who was full of truth and grace! You deceive yourself in this, you think you can walk perfectly before the law in this life, when in fact the law condemns you and you will die because of the giving of the law! It really only matters if you repent successfully and walk uprightly that the second death has no claim upon you in the world to come!

I must be misrepresenting myself. I don't believe we can walk perfectly before the law. I thought that is what you believed was required...

What do you think it means to "fulfill the law?"

You are command to, 'be ye perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect'. If you could keep this law then you could be given life, but because you keep not the commandment, you are given the punishment for the wicked, death. Because of the foreknowledge of G_d, He send the Elect down to bring for the promises of G_d. The Messiah is a sterling example of such...

No, life does not come by the law. If you kept the law perfectly, you still would not gain life.

Galatians 3:21
21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

JST, John 1:17
17 For the law was given through Moses, but life and truth came through Jesus Christ.

Now under the "preparatory Gospel" which intends to prepare us for the presence of God, we are under the law of carnal commandments. And if we break that law of carnal commandments, then we have sinned. If we have sinned, we must repent and be baptized and receive a remission of sins. All this is part of the preparatory Gospel given to those who will not abide the presence of God. (Including the great majority of the LDS today.)

You seem to be mixing when blessings come and who and how long the law remain upon whom.

How so? Please correct my statement as you see it.

I am out of time but will try to respond to your other comments later.

Peace,
Amonhi

[freedomforall]

Some people progress in one year what others do in their entire life time.

Do you believe that one person can run faster than another person and progress 2x, 3x, 10x or more faster than another person?

Which implication do you actually go with?

As I pointed out using the scriptures in my last post, that is a fools errand. The law never made anyone perfect.

Unless the law is Jesus Christ:

3 Nephi 15:9
9 Behold, I am the law, and the light. Look unto me, and endure to the end, and ye shall live; for unto him that endureth to the end will I give eternal life.

2 Ne. 26:1
1 And after Christ shall have risen from the dead he shall show himself unto you, my children, and my beloved brethren; and the words which he shall speak unto you shall be the law which ye shall do.

Lev. 18:5
5 Ye shall therefore keep my statutes, and my judgments: which if a man do, he shall live in them: I am the Lord.

D&C 84:44
44 For you shall live by every word that proceedeth forth from the mouth of God.

3 Ne. 27:6 (6–17)
6 And whoso taketh upon him my name, and endureth to the end, the same shall be saved at the last day.
7 Therefore, whatsoever ye shall do, ye shall do it in my name; therefore ye shall call the church in my name; and ye shall call upon the Father in my name that he will bless the church for my sake.
8 And how be it my church save it be called in my name? For if a church be called in Moses’ name then it be Moses’ church; or if it be called in the name of a man then it be the church of a man; but if it be called in my name then it is my church, if it so be that they are built upon my gospel.
9 Verily I say unto you, that ye are built upon my gospel; therefore ye shall call whatsoever things ye do call, in my name; therefore if ye call upon the Father, for the church, if it be in my name the Father will hear you;
10 And if it so be that the church is built upon my gospel then will the Father show forth his own works in it.
11 But if it be not built upon my gospel, and is built upon the works of men, or upon the works of the devil, verily I say unto you they have joy in their works for a season, and by and by the end cometh, and they are hewn down and cast into the fire, from whence there is no return.
12 For their works do follow them, for it is because of their works that they are hewn down; therefore remember the things that I have told you.
13 Behold I have given unto you my gospel, and this is the gospel which I have given unto you—that I came into the world to do the will of my Father, because my Father sent me.
14 And my Father sent me that I might be lifted up upon the cross; and after that I had been lifted up upon the cross, that I might draw all men unto me, that as I have been lifted up by men even so should men be lifted up by the Father, to stand before me, to be judged of their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil—
15 And for this cause have I been lifted up; therefore, according to the power of the Father I will draw all men unto me, that they may be judged according to their works.
16 And it shall come to pass, that whoso repenteth and is baptized in my name shall be filled; and if he endureth to the end, behold, him will I hold guiltless before my Father at that day when I shall stand to judge the world.
17 And he that endureth not unto the end, the same is he that is also hewn down and cast into the fire, from whence they can no more return, because of the justice of the Father.

Christ is the law. He is the one that perfects us:

Moroni 10:32,33
32 Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God.
33 And again, if ye by the grace of God are perfect in Christ, and deny not his power, then are ye sanctified in Christ by the grace of God, through the shedding of the blood of Christ, which is in the covenant of the Father unto the remission of your sins, that ye become holy, without spot.

[Amonhi]

Some people progress in one year what others do in their entire life time.

Do you believe that one person can run faster than another person and progress 2x, 3x, 10x or more faster than another person?

Which implication do you actually go with?

Are they different? Do you like white or white?

As I pointed out using the scriptures in my last post, that is a fools errand. The law never made anyone perfect.

Unless the law is Jesus Christ:

3 Nephi 15:9
9 Behold, I am the law, and the light. Look unto me, and endure to the end, and ye shall live; for unto him that endureth to the end will I give eternal life.

2 Ne. 26:1
1 And after Christ shall have risen from the dead he shall show himself unto you, my children, and my beloved brethren; and the words which he shall speak unto you shall be the law which ye shall do.

HAHAHAHAHA! Of course He IS the law. He is the ends of the law! LOL =)) He is the snake on the staff that Moses held up where on if the people looked they would live, (Numbers. 21:8). He is the source of the law (3 Nephi 15:5) and the end of it (

Romans 10:4
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

The Law is the dead work, the dead ordinance the sign post that points to Christ. Christ is the living work, the living ordinance and the real deal. The life is in and through Christ, not the Law. So Christ IS the Law because He is what the law points to. Its like saying you perform sacrifices as sin offerings but they aren't the real deal, they point to the real deal. Christ IS the sacrifice.

2 Nephi 11:4
4 Behold, my soul delighteth in proving unto my people the truth of the coming of Christ; for, for this end hath the law of Moses been given; and all things which have been given of God from the beginning of the world, unto man, are the typifying of him.

He is the way, the truth and the life! Not the law.
So, the law is given to the wicked to prepare them to come to Christ, and He IS the point, the law is concluded when we come to Christ. He is the end of the law. The law has an end in Him...So, He is the law. LOL! =))

24 And, notwithstanding we believe in Christ, we keep the law of Moses, and look forward with steadfastness unto Christ, until the law shall be fulfilled.

25 For, for this end was the law given; wherefore the law hath become dead unto us, and we are made alive in Christ because of our faith; yet we keep the law because of the commandments.

26 And we talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we prophesy of Christ, and we write according to our prophecies, that our children may know to what source they may look for a remission of their sins.

27 Wherefore, we speak concerning the law that our children may know the deadness of the law; and they, by knowing the deadness of the law, may look forward unto that life which is in Christ, and know for what end the law was given. And after the law is fulfilled in Christ, that they need not harden their hearts against him when the law ought to be done away. (When we come to Christ, we no longer need a schoolmaster or law. The church is not as good as Nephi in teachings its children that after the law is fulfilled in Christ, that they need not harden their hearts against him when the law ought to be done away. That is why you FreedomforAll and KingdomofZion and so many others are having a hard time with this concept. We are taught incorrectly by the church which doesn't understand that the goal is to come to Christ through the veil and get your C&E (Temple Endowment Reference) and then obey the principles of Christ (Take on you the name of Christ), and then the law ought to be done away. - Amonhi)

28 And now behold, my people, ye are a stiffnecked people; wherefore, I have spoken plainly unto you, that ye cannot misunderstand. (Their not the only ones! ;) )And the words which I have spoken shall stand as a testimony against you; for they are sufficient to teach any man the right way; for the right way is to believe in Christ and deny him not; for by denying him ye also deny the prophets and the law.

29 And now behold, I say unto you that the right way is to believe in Christ, and deny him not; and Christ is the Holy One of Israel; wherefore ye must bow down before him, and worship him with all your might, mind, and strength, and your whole soul; and if ye do this ye shall in nowise be cast out.

30 And, inasmuch as it shall be expedient, ye must keep the performances and ordinances of God until the law shall be fulfilled which was given unto Moses. - 2Ne. 25 (Amonhi's comments in green)

And I will add again the previous point I made which is that if you are under even the least of the law, you must complete the entire law.

Galatians 5:3
3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

James 2:10
10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

And Just like the Nephites, who taught the law and the deadness of it and pointed to Christ and the life in Christ, and yet kept the law until it was fulfilled, so to we should teach the law and the deadness of it and the life that is in Christ and encourage people to keep the law until it is fulfilled in them.

JST, Matthew 5:21
21 Whosoever, therefore, shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so to do, he shall in no wise be saved in the kingdom of heaven; but whosoever shall do and teach these commandments of the law until it be fulfilled, the same shall be called great, and shall be saved in the kingdom of heaven.

In that spirit, I tell people, obey the commandments and the law until it is fulfilled. Learn the reason and principles which the law is trying to teach you. Learn to Govern yourself in love. Prepare yourself for when the law is fulfilled in your life so that you do not harden your hearts against Christ and the gifts you have been given from and through Christ when the law ought to be done away in your life.

3 Nephi 15:5
5 Behold, I am he that gave the law, and I am he who covenanted with my people Israel; therefore, the law in me is fulfilled, for I have come to fulfil the law; therefore it hath an end.

Receive the mighty change of heart which is so great that you can look on an adulterous woman who is caught in the act and not pass judgement and only love her, or sit and eat with the sinners and poor of the earth. And learn to understand when a person acting in love and being Christ like would turn the tables in the temple and crack a whip or say to their apostle "Get thee hence Satan!" and call people "vipers". All these things Christ did in love. Being Christ like means that we will also do the same.

Peace and love,
Amonhi

[Cookies]

[Amonhi]

I also wanted to quote the context of one of the verses you (FreedomForAll) used to say that Christ IS the law...

2 And it came to pass that when Jesus had said these words he perceived that there were some among them who marveled, and wondered what he would concerning the law of Moses; for they understood not the saying that old things had passed away, and that all things had become new.

3 And he said unto them: Marvel not that I said unto you that old things had passed away, and that all things had become new.

4 Behold, I say unto you that the law is fulfilled that was given unto Moses. (But this did not mean that they could ignore the law and not fulfill it in them. We see a few verses later Christ has the people baptized for the remission of sins because they were still debtors to do the whole law. Jesus also ends all the animal sacrifices as given in the law of Moses and given the sacrament which brings the people in remembrance of him, his blood and body.)

5 Behold, I am he that gave the law, and I am he who covenanted with my people Israel; therefore, the law in me is fulfilled, for I have come to fulfil the law; therefore it hath an end.

6 Behold, I do not destroy the prophets, for as many as have not been fulfilled in me, verily I say unto you, shall all be fulfilled.

7 And because I said unto you that old things have passed away, I do not destroy that which hath been spoken concerning things which are to come.

8 For behold, the covenant which I have made with my people is not all fulfilled; but the law which was given unto Moses hath an end in me.

9 Behold, I am the law, and the light. Look unto me, and endure to the end, and ye shall live; for unto him that endureth to the end will I give eternal life.

10 Behold, I have given unto you the commandments; therefore keep my commandments. And this is the law and the prophets, for they truly testified of me. - 3Ne. 15

Christ says that he is the end of the law or that the law has an end in him and that he gave the commandments and then tells them to keep the commandments. and later he tells them to get baptized and everything else they need to do to fulfill the law.
Once it was fulfilled, then they no longer obeyed the performances and ordinances of the law of Moses.

2 And it came to pass in the thirty and sixth year, the people were all converted unto the Lord, upon all the face of the land, both Nephites and Lamanites, and there were no contentions and disputations among them, and every man did deal justly one with another.
3 And they had all things common among them; therefore there were not rich and poor, bond and free, but they were all made free, and partakers of the heavenly gift.(See Heb. 6:1-6 which says those who are partakers of the heavenly gift can't repent using the atonement to cover their sins without putting Christ to an open shame and crucifying him afresh ie. Becoming sons of perdition. - Amonhi)
...
12 And they did not walk any more after the performances and ordinances of the law of Moses; but they did walk after the commandments which they had received from their Lord and their God, continuing in fasting and prayer, and in meeting together oft both to pray and to hear the word of the Lord.
...
15 And it came to pass that there was no contention in the land, because of the love of God which did dwell in the hearts of the people. (Mighty change of heart - Amonhi)
16 And there were no envyings, nor strifes, nor tumults, nor whoredoms, nor lyings, nor murders, nor any manner of lasciviousness; and surely there could not be a happier people among all the people who had been created by the hand of God. (Their weren't any of these evils because the people had become good. Now even with the law and fear of punishments, wicked people will still seek to do these things and they will try to not get caught. They need the law to stifle their wickedness. The righteous don't need a law to be righteous. They are righteous without the law and punishments.
17 There were no robbers, nor murderers, neither were there Lamanites, nor any manner of -ites; but they were in one, the children of Christ, and heirs to the kingdom of God.
18 And how blessed were they! For the Lord did bless them in all their doings; yea, even they were blessed and prospered until an hundred and ten years had passed away; and the first generation from Christ had passed away, and there was no contention in all the land. - 4th Nephi

They were not called to repentance because they were righteous.
But then when the people became wicked again, they were called to repent and be baptized.

2 And it came to pass that the Lord did say unto me: Cry unto this people—Repent ye, and come unto me, and be ye baptized, and build up again my church, and ye shall be spared.
3 And I did cry unto this people, but it was in vain; and they did not realize that it was the Lord that had spared them, and granted unto them a chance for repentance. And behold they did harden their hearts against the Lord their God.

Right now, the lord says to the leaders of the church, "Cry repentance to this people". And that is why the main trust of the church is repent and be baptized and prepare to receive the Holy Ghost. We aren't even talking about prepare to receive God and His presence, that isn't the thrust of the church because the people are not ready to prepare for that. The people of the church in large need to prepare for the Holy Ghost through the preparatory gospel or the law of Moses which is given to prepare the way or to prepare a people to receive the Holy Ghost.

I am not calling to the wicked who are preparing to be sanctified by the Holy Ghost which is the voice of God. I am calling to those who already have the Holy Ghost and known the voice of God saying, "Prepare and enter into His presence that you may be blessed by him and enter into His rest. Come all who will to the Church of the Firstborn and receive Christ into your countenance. Receive His Law written in your hearts which law is love against which there is no other law. Be born of God who is Love that you may be children of Love and heirs of the richness and all that Love has." I call to them who have the Holy Ghost because they know His voice and hear His words and Come to Him.

Peace,
Amonhi

[freedomforall]

Amonhi, since you are so scripturally versed and knowledgeable in the gospel, can you present us with a new principle or even an expansion of a revealed one?

[Jeremy]

Amonhi, since you are so scripturally versed and knowledgeable in the gospel, can you present us with a new principle or even an expansion of a revealed one?

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=22462#p281223

[freedomforall]

Amonhi, since you are so scripturally versed and knowledgeable in the gospel, can you present us with a new principle or even an expansion of a revealed one?

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=22462#p281223

But where are the scriptural references/sources for the information in the OP?

[Jeremy]

Amonhi, since you are so scripturally versed and knowledgeable in the gospel, can you present us with a new principle or even an expansion of a revealed one?

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=22462#p281223

But where are the scriptural references/sources for the information in the OP?

Oh, see pages 1-45.

[freedomforall]

Amonhi, since you are so scripturally versed and knowledgeable in the gospel, can you present us with a new principle or even an expansion of a revealed one?

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=22462#p281223

Oh, see pages 1-45.

All references are already revealed to us. I'm asking for an expansion of said revealed principle, not that which is already known through one's own scripture study, prayer, seeking and application of things learned.
I'm also asking if he knows a new and unheard of principle.
I wanted Amonhi to respond so there would be no mistake in understanding the request.

[ithink]

What is your real name Amonhi?

It doesn't really matter. My name has no bearing on this discussion.

Peace,
Amonhi

I think it does, but I've asked, and you said no.

Amonhi, how am I to believe you are some sort of emissary if you can't even post your real name?

[freedomforall]

I think it does, but I've asked, and you said no.

Amonhi, how am I to believe you are some sort of emissary if you can't even post your real name?

I don't know if this has any bearing on the issue here, but Elder Packer had this to say concerning three different groups in the church:
"The dangers I speak of come from the gay-lesbian movement, the feminist movement (both of which are relatively new), and the ever-present challenge from the so-called scholars or intellectuals."

He goes on to say:
"In each case, the members who are hurting have the conviction that the Church somehow is doing something wrong to members or that the Church is not doing enough for them."

Although intellectuals more frequently complain about what is or isn't done in the church for each of these groups, many intellectuals seem to have very little to no room for learning or changing their perceived beliefs...and really have a problem with being challenged.

Isn't there a vast difference in what the scriptures really say, and what we want them to say? If 2000 people know that green is green, why would they all of a sudden see green as purple just by the word of one individual?

I suppose there still is a measuring tool to help..."by their fruits ye shall know them."

my 0.02 cents

[Jeremy]

Amonhi, how am I to believe you are some sort of emissary if you can't even post your real name?

It's probably not important to believe Amonhi is anything. He doesn't matter. It's the message that deserves attention, not the messenger.


Just curious, it has no bearing on the validity of your posts but what is your name ithink?

[Original_Intent]

It doesn't really matter. My name has no bearing on this discussion.

Peace,
Amonhi

I think it does, but I've asked, and you said no.

Amonhi, how am I to believe you are some sort of emissary if you can't even post your real name?

How does knowing his real name help you believe? Isn't there a more sure way of knowing? The name attached to the message has no bearing on the content of the message.

[ithink]

Amonhi, how am I to believe you are some sort of emissary if you can't even post your real name?

It's probably not important to believe Amonhi is anything. He doesn't matter. It's the message that deserves attention, not the messenger.


Just curious, it has no bearing on the validity of your posts but what is your name ithink?

I've stated my name many times in the last few months. My name is available on my blog by clicking at the bottom of this post.

[ithink]

How does knowing his real name help you believe? Isn't there a more sure way of knowing? The name attached to the message has no bearing on the content of the message.

He has stated he doesn't want his name known, but I think it's important. Denver stuck his nose out, why not Amonhi?

Anonymity can serve a purpose, but usually only for a time. Like myself, I wasn't ready for people to know who I was for a long time, but now I am. Perhaps he is in the same boat, but to me, there is something wrong with the message he is propagating, as there is with Denver's and others like him, and it would be better to address the man rather than the moniker.

[Thomas]

The merits of an idea can be discussed without knowing the merits of the man presenting them.

An ad hominem (Latin for "to the man" or "to the person"[1]), short for argumentum ad hominem, is a general category of fallacies in which a claim or argument is rejected on the basis of some irrelevant fact about the author of or the person presenting the claim or argument.[2

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem



Ideas stand or fall upon their own merits not upon the merits of the presenter.

[Jeremy]

I've stated my name many times in the last few months. My name is available on my blog by clicking at the bottom of this post.

So what is it?

He has stated he doesn't want his name known, but I think it's important.

ithink I think your wrong.

...to me, there is something wrong with the message he is propagating, as there is with Denver's and others like him...

What part?

[freedomforall]

The merits of an idea can be discussed without knowing the merits of the man presenting them.

An ad hominem (Latin for "to the man" or "to the person"[1]), short for argumentum ad hominem, is a general category of fallacies in which a claim or argument is rejected on the basis of some irrelevant fact about the author of or the person presenting the claim or argument.[2

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem



Ideas stand or fall upon their own merits not upon the merits of the presenter.

That way the presenter doesn't have to take responsibility for any false or incorrect info being articulated. Thus a new presenter ought to be able to counter incorrect info to counterbalance that which is wrong...so people can weigh the presented material and come away with a choice instead of one's opinion presented as fact, which in and of itself leaves them less opportunity to implant true doctrine into their mind. Then we have the possibility of someone presenting their own interpretation of scripture thus deceiving the reader, and then truth either becomes obscure or goes out the window.
But if we get a lot of people believing false info with no one being able to counter it with truth, then we have a huge mess. Truth and error begin to do battle and chaos ensues. So then we're back on square one. #:-S

[Bananikka]

I'm sure you realize not everybody wants their private information (and yes in a public, worldwide Internet forum a name certainly ought to, in my opinion, be private) advertised online? This can pose a safety risk as well as create an invasion of his privacy. And once info is posted online it cannot be removed. I don't see a need for anybody here or anywhere online to reveal their real names for this reason, unless they are perfectly willing to and do it voluntarily. Why would we even ask eachother to indulge this info online, as a I said, where realy anybody on earth can see it and use it as they desire? (And not everybody has righteous desires..)

How does knowing his real name help you believe? Isn't there a more sure way of knowing? The name attached to the message has no bearing on the content of the message.

He has stated he doesn't want his name known, but I think it's important. Denver stuck his nose out, why not Amonhi?

Anonymity can serve a purpose, but usually only for a time. Like myself, I wasn't ready for people to know who I was for a long time, but now I am. Perhaps he is in the same boat, but to me, there is something wrong with the message he is propagating, as there is with Denver's and others like him, and it would be better to address the man rather than the moniker.

[ithink]

I've stated my name many times in the last few months. My name is available on my blog by clicking at the bottom of this post.

So what is it?

He has stated he doesn't want his name known, but I think it's important.

ithink I think your wrong.

...to me, there is something wrong with the message he is propagating, as there is with Denver's and others like him...

What part?

It's so simple I'm not sure anyone would believe it if I mentioned it. I realized there was something going on here when Snuffer claimed to have seen Christ in the temple.

"And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not:"

But you can see Christ, although it's nothing worth writing home about.

"When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

You don't need a recipe to see Christ. You just need to open your eyes.

You don't need to be "worthy". You just need to be kind.

You aren't less than anyone else because you haven't "seen" him Amonhi / Snuffer style. And those who have, can't be sure who they have seen (and neither can you) because it's "... no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light."

Hence my request for Amonhi's name.

[Jeremy]

Hence my request for Amonhi's name.

Yeah, I still don't get it. #-o [slow]

[Amonhi]

Amonhi, since you are so scripturally versed and knowledgeable in the gospel, can you present us with a new principle or even an expansion of a revealed one?

I read this at 4:00am-ish this morning and didn't have time to respond. I probably won't respond to posts for a while as I have no time and am running on 4 hours of sleep as it is. BUT, this sounded like a fun and interesting request tied to a compliment against my ego, lol. ;-)

I don't know exactly what you are looking for that I have not already done multiple times. So I am puzzeled.

Are you asking me share share a unique revelation that has never been shared by a Prophet which would give direct and useful insight into your own life or the life of others, something not found directly in the scriptures? Or are you asking me to use the scriptures to teach a concept like the preparatory redemption or point out how the Lord ate physical food with Abraham before being born to Mary... what are you looking for?

[ithink]

Hence my request for Amonhi's name.

Yeah, I still don't get it. #-o [slow]

I'm saying that Amonhi is asking people to draw their attention to things that Christ explicitly warned us against, and to do this anonymously detracts from his credibility, from my point of view.

[FoxMammaWisdom]

Hence my request for Amonhi's name.

Yeah, I still don't get it. #-o [slow]

I'm saying that Amonhi is asking people to draw their attention to things that Christ explicitly warned us against, and to do this anonymously detracts from his credibility, from my point of view.

I haven't caught up on the thread, can you point out specifically what these things are?