With agency we have possibility. The more agency, the more possibility. The less agency the less possibility. With endless agency we have the endless possibility to progress, in this life or the next. Only we set the bounds and limits of our progression. Some people progress in one year what others do in their entire life time.Amonhi wrote:Do we have agency in the matter?Kingdom of ZION wrote:
Yes, Father never remove your agency. Only the adversary seeks to do such.
hmmm. I take it you believe in multiple lives? What is the age and priesthood you are talking about gaining over time and with greater experience? If two people lived to be the a few eons old, would they have the same priesthood and calling? Do you believe that one person can run faster than another person and progress 2x, 3x, 10x or more faster than another person?Amonhi wrote:Please explain why there is need for an anointment or appointment?The Messiah was foreordained to be the Holy One of Israel. He had the age and priesthood to bear the commandments given Him. JS, Moses, Noah, and others have similar Anointments and appointments or callings (foreordinations). They also at their place in the path, have the age and priesthood to bear their callings. Jonah is a good example of one who wish to run and hid from such a divine appointment. Even JS was given a choice about CPM, to teach it or not (if you believe such stories). If this were not the case or true, then a G_d who is no respecter of persons, would have to give you the same First Vision in the grove experience if you were to attempt the same thing and were equally righteous. BUT because JS was Anointed and appointed, his received such where no one else has received the same (except those of the same Anointments and appointments or callings (foreordinations, like Moses, Noah, and others ave similar callings and at the same place upon the eternal path!
freedomforall wrote:Even one sin will keep us out of God's presence if not remitted. It doesn't matter what the sin is either, because if we break any one point of the law (all commandments) we become a transgressor of the whole law.Amonhi wrote:You are correct from a lower law view point. Have you considered the fact that we sinned in the presence of God before being born? And we were not cast out of His presence before we were born? Do you know about that? What is your take on that?KingdomofZion wrote:I do not have to 'consider it', for even though you state it as a fact, there is no facts! We know that a third part of heaven did rebel and sin in the presence of the Father, and they were cast out. They become sons of Perdition, they will never be allowed to return unto His presence again.
I started a new thread for this discussion as it seem to not be a well known fact. We can discuss Sin in the pre-mortal world [urlhttp://www.ldsfreedomforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=34382]HERE[/url]. I already presented a quote from LDS authored "The Life and Teachings of Christ and the Apostles" student manual to start that discussion.
FreedomForAll is correct! All you have to do is keep all of the commandments and repent of every transgression and your in the Father's kingdom.
As I pointed out using the scriptures in my last post, that is a fools errand. The law never made anyone perfect. If you live by the law you will be judged by the law and all who are under the law are cursed. One of the reasons the law will never make a person perfect is that by obeying the law you remain selfish and a natural man. You can obey the law without being loving and use the law to do bad things like the pharisees who tried to use the law to bind Jesus, force his had to do evil and even condemn him. The law makes us more selfish. It puts our focus on "What will happen to me if I do this?" rather than, "What will happen to others if I do this?" You become more concerned about the punishments coming back on you if you break the law and not concerned about what is actually moral or how you are effecting others. In addition, your doctrine also frustrates grace and invalidates the atonement. Your doctrine is addressed here saying that if you live by the law, you will not have grace and you will be judged by the law:
Galatians 2:21
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
4 Now to him who is justified by the law of works, is the reward reckoned, not of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that seeketh not to be justified by the law of works, but believeth on him who justifieth not the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Romans 4:14
14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
You said,
I guess it depends on your intention... If you are intentionally going to keep one of the adversary's precepts, deceptions or lies, knowing that it is such, then sure your are his. But who really does that? Who says, I know I believe a lie but I am going to keep believing it? Telestial people?..Maybe?..But not even them knowingly and willingly... God placed enmity between the seed of the woman and Satan. So even the natural man must view himself justified and right in his own mind.KingdomofZion wrote:Or just keep one of the adversary precepts, deceptions, or lies and refuse to repent of it and your in his kingdom. What is my take on that? It is a made up doctrine to deceive the innocent and foolish!
Yes, we all sinned in the pre-mortal world while in God's presence. Some more than others. Satan et al. were cast out for attempting to destroy the agency of man, not for sinning. The "Preparatory Redemption" did nothing for Satan et al. who were cast out, hence they were cast out and not redeemed in preparation for the second estate. Perhaps sin is the wrong word as it is confusing. If a person under the law breaks the law, it is called sin. If a person outside of the law or not under he law acts contrary to God's will, then its called a transgression. So it might be more correct to say that we transgressed in the presence of God before we were born. I used the word sin because that is what the church doctrine calls it. And yes we did... (Discuss this concept HERE)Amonhi wrote:I learned from Alma 13 that there was sin in the pre-mortal world while in the presence of God. And this is confirmed clearly by church doctrine. In the beginning we were on the same standing...but over time some lived better and became qualified for a Holy Calling and priesthood which was prepared with and according to "a preparatory redemption".KingdomofZion wrote:
I said the same thing you just said, only I pointed out those who did were cast out, you seem to think their is some who did and were not cast out. That is not in the doctrine! Alma 13 just proves my declaration...
When you are under the law, you are right. But, remember,freedomforall wrote:[James 2:10
10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.If we are not under the law, then we can't sin against it, even in the least degree.24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. – Gal. 3:24-25
Poppycock... The Scriptures are given to the young and those who are spiritually asleep. It comes by those who know the voice of the Lord. Hence it is those souls, the young and those who are spiritually asleep that need the schoolmaster. But when you awaken or mature some, you begin to develop faith, and from faith, come knowledge and remorse and it leads you to repentance. That is how you become 'justified by faith', through works, not that you can works off one sin in and by yourself, but through works you show forth your willingness to try to no longer sin, and bring forth fruits worthy of forgiveness through His merciful Son's grace and love for you.
I can see where you are coming from. I think it is funny that you said we are justified by faith trough works...which seems to be a way of saying we are justified by works and not really faith. But then we are getting into the whole faith vs works and which comes first the chicken or the eggs... The thing is that if you have to try to be good and do good, it is because you are not good by nature. If you have to try to be nice to others, then it is because you are not nice to others. It isn't in your nature. If you are selfish, then that is your nature and you haven't had the change of heart, been born again, born of God. If your nature is changed and you are born of God, then you would have to try to do evil because it isn't in your nature. You would have to work at it just as much as a carnal man has to work at being good. This is because of our nature which is carnal and devilish or spiritual and Godly.
If you are under the law, you are carnal and devilish. That's why the law was given and who the law was given to. You can't live the law perfectly in the hopes of qualifying for the CK because "no man/woman is justified by the law" and "the law never made anyone perfect". Not even Jesus Christ. Perfection is not attained by living the law and commandments perfectly. This is one of the things that almost everyone gets stuck on and they focus all their effort in the wrong direction and never learn the truth and so never attain the reward. That is why the scripture says, of those who achieve the Terrestrial but not the Celestial,
"75 These are they who are honorable men of the earth, who were blinded by the craftiness of men." - D&C 76:75
Don't focus on obeying the law. Focus on being loving and gaining charity. God is love and when you become love, you will be like God. Love fulfills all the laws and all the prophets. Focus on learning love and being love and acting in love and forget how many ear rings you can have or how long your shirt shoulder cuffs need to be, or what you can do on Sunday. And keep the spirit with you always because,
If the spirit tells you to act on love, joy, peace, longsuffering, etc. and you acting by the spirit in those things causes you to break the law, then you are justified because there can be no law against these things.22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. - Gal. 5:22
At this point you are now prepared to start following the Father personally, rather then the writings from other men who are trying to follow the Father themselves, and have left there testament or derived the Father's words. It is an 'Arm of Flesh' thing! G_d wants His children to worship Him personally. That was the great sin in Moses's day, when the children of Yesrael refused to ascend the mount into His presence and worship Him directly.
I assent.
So, yes a lessor law was given for those who refused to worship Him personally. However, that is NOT what is taught in the Temples of the Most High! So, you think, 'If we are not under the law, then we can't sin against it, even in the least degree.' What a bucket of dung!
yes, that is what I believe and I provided quite a number of scriptures that say that exactly.
If the law is removed, can there be a sin? For example to some, God said you can only have 1 wife and no concubines. To others God said, This law does not apply to you and you may have many wives, etc. Is the person who has many wives under condemnation for the law given to the person who is only allowed 1 wife?Amonhi wrote: Without the law, we cannot sin. The scriptures are VERY clear and repetitive on this point.
Alma 42:17
17 Now, how could a man repent except he should sin? How could he sin if there was no law? How could there be a law save there was a punishment?
KingdomfoZion wrote:Yes these things are true... no need to repent of a sin that was never done (Original Sin)! The law was first given, and the punishment was then set and declared. That is true action of principles in eternal truth.
If I recall correctly, Jesus died. He had power over life and death. This power is given to all who are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise and made priests and priestesses having received all that God has. (But they have to learn to use it.) See D&C 76:50-70 Jesus learned obedience by the things which he suffered, just as we do. He didn't do anything that is outside of our reach or he would not be an example of what we can do and achieve.1 Corinthians 15:56
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.Romans 5:13
Yes, all mankind must die because of the wages of sin is death. Only the Son of G_d who was Born (Sired) of G_d never sinned and death had no claim upon Him!
I must be misrepresenting myself. I don't believe we can walk perfectly before the law. I thought that is what you believed was required...The Jews thought the same as you, 'If we fulfill the law...' as if any man can keep the whole law, save the Messiah who was full of truth and grace! You deceive yourself in this, you think you can walk perfectly before the law in this life, when in fact the law condemns you and you will die because of the giving of the law! It really only matters if you repent successfully and walk uprightly that the second death has no claim upon you in the world to come!Amonhi wrote:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.If we fulfill the law, not break it or ignore it, but fulfill it, then we are no longer subject to it. It was truly our school master to bring us to Christ and once that faith is come we are no longer under a school master, Gal. 3:24-25.Romans 7:8
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
The law was ADDDED or given in addition to what was without the law. And it will be subtracted again when it is fulfilled. We are under the law TILL or UNTIL...
What do you think it means to "fulfill the law?"
No, life does not come by the law. If you kept the law perfectly, you still would not gain life.You are command to, 'be ye perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect'. If you could keep this law then you could be given life, but because you keep not the commandment, you are given the punishment for the wicked, death. Because of the foreknowledge of G_d, He send the Elect down to bring for the promises of G_d. The Messiah is a sterling example of such...
Galatians 3:21
21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
JST, John 1:17
17 For the law was given through Moses, but life and truth came through Jesus Christ.
How so? Please correct my statement as you see it.Now under the "preparatory Gospel" which intends to prepare us for the presence of God, we are under the law of carnal commandments. And if we break that law of carnal commandments, then we have sinned. If we have sinned, we must repent and be baptized and receive a remission of sins. All this is part of the preparatory Gospel given to those who will not abide the presence of God. (Including the great majority of the LDS today.)
You seem to be mixing when blessings come and who and how long the law remain upon whom.
I am out of time but will try to respond to your other comments later.
Peace,
Amonhi