Church's new City Creek Mall Plaza Complex commercial on TV

[HeirofNumenorthe Heir Of Numenor]

Re: 900 acres in Phoenix area- oftentimes the church leaders have been inspired to obtain land without having a clear idea of the eventual use for that land. Will it be for a future temple? A future place of refuge? Are there mineral resources or water under that land? Will it be needed later to grow food for the survivors in the region?
The high price MAYy suggest a favor to the Mormon developer who previously donated $250 million to church and charity; but time it also seems the Church wanted put any challenges to ownership beyond reach.

[natashacaptain of 1,000]

I strongly disagree. People have the right to voice their opinions. Even if it is dissent they are voicing. That's why this is a forum. Just because you don't agree with something doesn't mean no one should be able to say it. Im more neutral on this issue myself. I know things are FAR from perfect in the church but I don't always need to voice my concerns and I know the Lord is truly in control and eventually all things will be set right. But I don't mind others voicing their concerns either. Why does that make you so uncomfortable? What they say shouldn't really affect your testimony if you are grounded in Christ the Rock. Control = Satan's way of doing things no matter what the reasons are for. He wanted to force everyone to do everything the right way. And God rejected that plan. And I likewise reject this idea that people can't voice concerns or ask questions as long as they are doing so respectfully.

You mispeak regarding what I feel. It does not in the least make me uncomfortable...nor does what he says affect MY testimony. However, there is a sense of responsibility regarding someone else who might have a "shakey testimony", not to mention the non-members that might hit on this site....which, by the way, happened when a friend of mine (non-member) from out of state came here and really was taken aback by some of the rhetoric and discussions. So, yes...I certainly do believe that we should give careful consideration to the things we say.

[mgsbigdogcaptain of 10]

I got bad news Flagg. And I hope you're sitting down cause this might shake your testimony. All four of the missions require (dun dun dun) money. The fact is I'd rather have a leadership that responsibly reinvests money and remains financially independent rather than one that bankrupts itself by spending beyond what is sustainable (yes even on the feel-good things). If we are instructed to tithe and then live off a percentage, put a percentage in short term savings, and put a percentage into investments (my wife and I strive for 30/30/30 after tithing) why do we have a keniption(sp?) fit when the church makes investments that not only encourage growth but protect the value of existing property?

[HeirofNumenorthe Heir Of Numenor]

Just realize that control and freedom arguments are also used by Satan and his lawyers, etc to justify all sorts of sins

[laroniuscaptain of 100]

I strongly disagree. People have the right to voice their opinions. Even if it is dissent they are voicing. That's why this is a forum. Just because you don't agree with something doesn't mean no one should be able to say it. Im more neutral on this issue myself. I know things are FAR from perfect in the church but I don't always need to voice my concerns and I know the Lord is truly in control and eventually all things will be set right. But I don't mind others voicing their concerns either. Why does that make you so uncomfortable? What they say shouldn't really affect your testimony if you are grounded in Christ the Rock. Control = Satan's way of doing things no matter what the reasons are for. He wanted to force everyone to do everything the right way. And God rejected that plan. And I likewise reject this idea that people can't voice concerns or ask questions as long as they are doing so respectfully.

You mispeak regarding what I feel. It does not in the least make me uncomfortable...nor does what he says affect MY testimony. However, there is a sense of responsibility regarding someone else who might have a "shakey testimony", not to mention the non-members that might hit on this site....which, by the way, happened when a friend of mine (non-member) from out of state came here and really was taken aback by some of the rhetoric and discussions. So, yes...I certainly do believe that we should give careful consideration to the things we say.

Natasha, I whole heartedly agree. So did Pres. Beson who I quote:

"When individual actions of some Church members disturb you, here’s another principle to consider: the principle of stewardship. As the kingdom grows larger, more and more responsibilities have to be delegated and stewardships handed out. Men respond in different degrees of valiance to their stewardships. God is very patient and long suffering as he waits for some of us to learn to meet our responsibilities. He usually gives a man a long enough rope and a long enough time to either pull himself up to the presence of God or drop off somewhere below. But while God is patient, no puny arm of man in his stewardship can long impede or pervert the work of the Lord. The work of God is like a mill that grinds slowly, but grinds every so minutely—he sees to it that the work is done.

Because God has given men their agency, there will always be those who will misuse it. The gospel net draws in the good and the bad, the best and the worst. The worst because the devil, before the final cleansing, put some of his followers within the kingdom in order to try and destroy it. We have some of them within the kingdom today, and in due course their number shall be known. Time has a way of taking care of all things, of elevating the good and bringing down the bad. If we see things going on within the kingdom that disturb us, we should first find out if the matter falls within our stewardship. We then should talk to the person or people involved. If it is of such a nature that we think it should be called to the attention of higher authority, then we can, in a kindly and quiet manner, take the necessary steps at the proper level.

To publish differences we may think we have with the leaders of the Church, to create strife and division, is a sure road to apostasy. Our task is to stick with the kingdom, to not let anything or anybody disaffect or sour us toward that great gift that Christ has given us—his Church.

The Church is true. Keep its laws; attend its meetings; sustain its leaders; accept its callings; get its recommend; enjoy its blessings …"

[7cylon7captain of 1,000]

For all those complaining about how the money used for the City Creek complex should have been used elsewhere:

Then took Mary a pound of ointment of spikenard, very costly, and anointed the feet of Jesus, and wiped his feet with her hair: and the house was filled with the odour of the ointment. Then saith one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, Simon’s son, which should betray him, Why was not this ointment sold for three hundred pence, and given to the poor? (Jn 12:3-5)

Beware of the company you keep when making such statements. You should be less worried about what the brethren are doing with the finances in their stewardship and more worried about what you are doing with the finances in your own.

I have no idea what the purpose of the complex is.....but it could be as simple as the Lord desiring to test who will murmur and who won't. In the past the Lord has tested his followers by asking them to suffer bondage, wander the wilderness, cross plains, and march on a dead end military expedition (Zion's camp). If a shopping mall is the toughest test I have to pass then I will consider myself lucky.

Once again a great scripture taken completely out of context. Nicely done. Well played.

[Col. Flaggcaptain of 10,000]

To publish differences we may think we have with the leaders of the Church, to create strife and division, is a sure road to apostasy.

Really? Joseph Smith himself disagrees with that - he admonished church members to question and express alarm over decisions made within the ranks of the church that seemed to conflict with church doctrine and/or what was right - wonder why he said that?

Our task is to stick with the kingdom, to not let anything or anybody disaffect or sour us toward that great gift that Christ has given us—his Church.

The Lord doesn't want a house of sheep who follow blindly - if so, why did he give us agency, freedom of speech and a brain? There is a fine line in supporting and sustaining the Lord's annointed and agreeing/disagreeing with their actions. One can support and sustain someone as a leader while disagreeing with them on something.

The Church is true. Keep its laws; attend its meetings; sustain its leaders; accept its callings; get its recommend; enjoy its blessings …"

Amen!!!

[John Lockecaptain of 1,000]

http://www.gatherthefaithful.net/?p=168

[laroniuscaptain of 100]

To publish differences we may think we have with the leaders of the Church, to create strife and division, is a sure road to apostasy.

Really? Joseph Smith himself disagrees with that - he admonished church members to question and express alarm over decisions made within the ranks of the church that seemed to conflict with church doctrine and/or what was right - wonder why he said that?

Our task is to stick with the kingdom, to not let anything or anybody disaffect or sour us toward that great gift that Christ has given us—his Church.

The Lord doesn't want a house of sheep who follow blindly - if so, why did he give us agency, freedom of speech and a brain? There is a fine line in supporting and sustaining the Lord's annointed and agreeing/disagreeing with their actions. One can support and sustain someone as a leader while disagreeing with them on something.

The Church is true. Keep its laws; attend its meetings; sustain its leaders; accept its callings; get its recommend; enjoy its blessings …"

Amen!!!

Col. Flagg, everything you just responded to was from the quote of Pres. Benson not me. I only wrote the first line of my original posting.

http://www.lds.org/liahona/1978/03/we-s ... nse+benson

[Henmashercaptain of 1,000]

It may be loose but here is my quick attempt at your challenge col while not knowing the mind of the lord on this matter.

•Proclaim the gospel
Temple square is the largest missionary tool in the church. So by increasing the attention brought to the surrounding area people are exposed to the gospel of Christ and the missionary effort of that Holy piece of ground is put to work. For instance consider Warrens temple in the middle of no where. How many people go there and recieve conversion?

•Perfect the Saints
By sustaining the decisions of the lords annointed I can accept his will in my life, the life of His Church, and the eternitites. This mall does not change my opportunity at salvation. It can only perfect me by my reaction.

•Redeem the dead
See the first and tell me if they coincide to you in the least.

•Care for the poor and needy
The three previous address this. The poor of spirit and the needy of Christ are involved. I have no quick example of the temporal.

Lastly consider that every decision made by the brethren involves every mission fold, whether spiritual or temporal, for are not all things spiritual unto the Lord? I doubt God lets Monson drop billions of His money without a pretty strong nudge in the right direction
Never has He commanded or given temporal save it shall bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. One day you are going to have to realize that your contentious spirit towards the stewardships held by your brothers and sisters is going to bring a stiff penalty to yourself when you account yours. Be ever weary and listen to the spirit but cease in your constant barrage towards my Gods annointed leaders. It is getting old

[Col. Flaggcaptain of 10,000]

Lastly consider that every decision made by the brethren involves every mission fold, whether spiritual or temporal, for are not all things spiritual unto the Lord? I doubt God lets Monson drop billions of His money without a pretty strong nudge in the right direction

Is that how and why Pres. Hinckley dropped $250,000 for forged documents from Mark Hoffman in the 1980's?

One day you are going to have to realize that your contentious spirit towards the stewardships held by your brothers and sisters is going to bring a stiff penalty to yourself when you account yours.

The judgments being placed upon me from people like you are going to weigh more heavily than my questioning the construction of a $5 billion mall.

Be ever weary and listen to the spirit but cease in your constant barrage towards my Gods annointed leaders. It is getting old

Sorry - if it acts like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's probably a duck. Sorry for using my freedom of speech and expressing concern for how the church is spending billions on a high-priced mall during a time when many are in need.

[Col. Flaggcaptain of 10,000]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/2 ... _waterfall

City Creek shoppers can rest assured that their purchases -- a $535 Porsche Design tobacco pipe, perhaps? -- will bring them a little closer to God , or at least Temple Square.

Loved the comment at the bottom of the article... "so what would Jesus buy here? I'm guessing a crowbar with a clawed end"...

http://classic.scriptures.lds.org/en/morm/8/37a

Mormon 8:37 - For behold, ye do love money, and your substance, and your fine apparel, and the adorning of your churches, more than ye love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted.

Ezek. 34: 8 - As I live, saith the Lord God, surely because my flock became a prey, and my flock became meat to every beast of the field, because there was no shepherd, neither did my shepherds search for my flock, but the shepherds fed themselves, and fed not my flock

1 Nephi. 13: 7-8 - And I also saw gold, and silver, and silks, and scarlets, and fine-twined linen, and all manner of precious clothing; and I saw many harlots; and the angel spake unto me, saying: Behold the gold, and the silver, and the silks, and the scarlets, and the fine-twined linen, and the precious clothing, and the harlots, are the desires of this great and abominable church.”

2 Nephi. 28: 13 (9-16) - They rob the poor because of their fine sanctuaries; they rob the poor because of their fine clothing; and they persecute the meek and the poor in heart, because in their pride they are puffed up.

[laroniuscaptain of 100]

The point here is not whether building the mall was a good idea or not, that is not ours to decide. The point is: "Where do you draw the line?" If the Lord in his infinite wisdom has chosen these men to guide us in these last days, should we not put our trust in them, if for no other reason than because the Lord does. Does this make them perfect? Of course not. But neither are we. Case in point, Col Flagg mentioned Pres Hinckley and the purchase of the manuscript. None of us know the details behind how the decision was made. But let's assume that it was just a plain bad decision on his part. Well if making that mistake helped him become the man who would lead and bless this church for so many years then I consider that money well spent.

Now the automatic response to this by some is to say how we shouldn't just blindly follow the prophet or that so-and-so way back when said to not just automatically accept everything our church leaders say, which is a valid point. But neither should we just automatically treat everything they do with suspicion either. What evidence has anyone that they were NOT inspired by the Lord in the construction of this mall? There is none save the opinion of those who feel they are sufficiently wise and knowledgable enough to call our leaders incompetent, which is exactly what they would be to spend $3 billion on a project the Lord did not approve. So which is it, inspired or incompetance? There is no other option!

[patriotsaintcaptain of 1,000]

Once again a great scripture taken completely out of context. Nicely done. Well played.

You are kidding right? The context of this scripture is someone complaining hypocritically about how church funds were used. How is that out of context? The kind of scriptural interpretation in this thread is the kind that folks make when they, "wrest them ...to [their] own destruction."

Maybe if my interpretation of scripture is so distasteful to you, I may make more headway with this quote by Joseph Smith:

If you do not accuse each other, God will not accuse you. If you have no accuser you will enter heaven, and if you will follow the revelations and instructions which God gives you through me, I will take you into heaven as my back load. If you will not accuse me, I will not accuse you. If you will throw a cloak of charity over my sins, I will over yours—for charity covereth a multitude of sins.
(History of the Church, 4:445).

The bottom line is that this issue is outside our stewardship and that even if the brethren have done something hypothetically wrong we need to be their advocates...not their accusers.

[Col. Flaggcaptain of 10,000]

What evidence has anyone that they were NOT inspired by the Lord in the construction of this mall?

There's no way to know that, however, what do these scripture references bring to mind?...

Mormon 8:37 - For behold, ye do love money, and your substance, and your fine apparel, and the adorning of your churches, more than ye love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted.

Ezek. 34: 8 - As I live, saith the Lord God, surely because my flock became a prey, and my flock became meat to every beast of the field, because there was no shepherd, neither did my shepherds search for my flock, but the shepherds fed themselves, and fed not my flock

1 Nephi. 13: 7-8 - And I also saw gold, and silver, and silks, and scarlets, and fine-twined linen, and all manner of precious clothing; and I saw many harlots; and the angel spake unto me, saying: Behold the gold, and the silver, and the silks, and the scarlets, and the fine-twined linen, and the precious clothing, and the harlots, are the desires of this great and abominable church.”

2 Nephi. 28: 13 (9-16) - They rob the poor because of their fine sanctuaries; they rob the poor because of their fine clothing; and they persecute the meek and the poor in heart, because in their pride they are puffed up.

There is none save the opinion of those who feel they are sufficiently wise and knowledgable enough to call our leaders incompetent, which is exactly what they would be to spend $3 billion on a project the Lord did not approve. So which is it, inspired or incompetance? There is no other option!

None of the above... you're not incompetent when you've got billions to throw into a luxury mall, but I will say one thing... if this now $5 billion mall was inspired, then the Lord is going to have to apologize to a LOT of his servants in biblical/scriptural times that were punished for their lavishness and vanity and remove many scriptures condemning the love of money and his church desiring to appeal to the world.

[clarkkent14captain of 1,000]

Hey now superman, don't you go misconstruing the words of the Lord.

How so?

[laroniuscaptain of 100]

No Col Flagg, I will not let you skirt the question that easily. These are 15 men who profess to all the world that they lead the church by revelation. And they just spent $5 billion, as you put it, on a project, which is no small sum for anyone but the governement. So either they made this decision without drawing upon the powers of heaven for guidance which would make this a completely incompetent decision of historical proportions or, simply, they did and the Lord said yes. I cannot see any other way around it. Inspired or incompetent?

[Juliettecaptain of 1,000]

Is the church a church first... or a business? The corporate aspect of the church seems to be taking over the religious part - that's the concern here.

The church is whatever you make of it Col.! If you want it to assist your "religious" needs then it's there for you. If you want it to be worldly then it's there for you! You'll find what you're looking for.
If during GC in 2 weeks all the talks are focused on the shopping mall and the speakers encourage people to go to deseret first credit union to get a visa card then go blow it all at city creek then you may be correct, the business arm has taken over the religious part. But if that doesn't happen I would encourage you to reevaluate your "concern".

I agree 100% Shadow. It really is difficult for me to understand the constant "questioning" here by some on the forum. You know, you can "thinK' anything you want, but you don't need to voice your thoughts about everything on the internet. Those concerns need to be taken to the Lord in prayer...and when I say that, I don't mean asking the Lord if the brethren are right...pleading with the Lord to be on the same page with them.

I agree with Shadow also Natasha. I do not question the wisdom of our Prophet and GA's. No murmering!

[Eddie Lylecaptain of 100]

I for one am not on the road to apostasy, nor am I writing to say that the Church Leaders are incompetent, ignorant or uninspired. I also know that they are truly prophets seers and revelators. My question is just why? Salt Lake just had renovations a decade ago for the Olympics. This started planning in 2003 or 4 just 1-2 years after that. Was SLC so run down to invest that kind of money? Some of your responses (those who don't throw out pejoratives and question our sincerity, worthiness or spirituality) have been good. I like the idea that the Church took ownership of those blocks to preserve headquarters and temple square. I somewhat understand that. But why a project costing billions for something so shallow and apparently devoid of what is good.

Maybe it is my prejudice against malls. I admit freely I loathe the places. I remember 22 years ago going on a youth temple trip from my small coastal village to the nearest city with a temple. About 2 miles away is one of the state's biggest malls. Our youth leaders took us to it as a "treat" after the temple. I remember the youth being more excited about the 4 hours in the mall than the 2 hours in the temple. I dubbed that mall then and refer to it to this day as the Mecca of Human Decadence. The stark contrast between the spirit in the Lord's house compared to the mall was stark and left an indelible impression on me. It wasn't that the stores or their goods were or are evil (though that can be debatable). It was the spirit of the place, one of selfishness, greediness and lasciviousness. The last time I went to a mall it was at Christmas time 2 years ago. It had the same feeling as a casino I walked through one time for a work conference to get to the banquet room, full of unsmiling, seemingly unhappy people, spending money that they didn't have for things that wouldn't make them happy.

I know what makes me happy. It is keeping the commandments of the Lord. I feel no guilt for asking why. If I feel no guilt and I am not beyond feeling (which I assure you I am not) then I have broke no commandments in not sustaining the Brethren. I accept that I may never have an answer to my why that will satisfy me soon. I trust the Lord and his Servants enough that I know I am not a tare for asking a sincere question. The scriptures and the modern prophets are replete with warnings against materialism, seeking after riches, getting out of debt, only buying what you can afford, frugality, and building Zion( in it's varied meanings). When the Lord told Joseph to build the Nauvoo house it was a simple house. You can go there today and rent a cot for a few bucks ( http://www.cofchrist.org/js/riverside/rental.asp ). Even then, building the temple took precedence and it was abandoned. There is also church history in stores like ZCMI, various banks and other enterprises. I respect that. Most of those seemed to be started so that we wouldn't trade with gentiles that just forced us out of the country. It is simply the extravagance for a purpose the scriptures and prophets seem to be against that is confusing. At least they will be closed on Sunday.

[Markcaptain of 1,000]

To publish differences we may think we have with the leaders of the Church, to create strife and division, is a sure road to apostasy.

Really? Joseph Smith himself disagrees with that - he admonished church members to question and express alarm over decisions made within the ranks of the church that seemed to conflict with church doctrine and/or what was right - wonder why he said that?

Our task is to stick with the kingdom, to not let anything or anybody disaffect or sour us toward that great gift that Christ has given us—his Church.

The Lord doesn't want a house of sheep who follow blindly - if so, why did he give us agency, freedom of speech and a brain? There is a fine line in supporting and sustaining the Lord's annointed and agreeing/disagreeing with their actions. One can support and sustain someone as a leader while disagreeing with them on something.

The Church is true. Keep its laws; attend its meetings; sustain its leaders; accept its callings; get its recommend; enjoy its blessings …"

Amen!!!

Col. Flagg, everything you just responded to was from the quote of Pres. Benson not me. I only wrote the first line of my original posting.

http://www.lds.org/liahona/1978/03/we-s ... nse+benson

Classic. Am I going to see you and the family on conference Sunday holding up home made signs that you and the kids made during your FHE activity this Monday all pacing in front of the conference center and bullhorning with Aussie at your side calling the prophets to repentance for the church's wasteful spending habits my friend.

[Original_Intentcaptain of 1,000]

... if this now $5 billion mall was inspired, then the Lord is going to have to apologize to a LOT of his servants in biblical/scriptural times that were punished for their lavishness and vanity and remove many scriptures condemning the love of money and his church desiring to appeal to the world.

This is where you and I part ways, Col...this goes beyond asking "WHY?" - this is openly declaring that this COULD NOT have been an inspired decision, (as clearly the Lord is NOT going to have to apologize to anyone, so you are declaring the other side of your if....then statement true. So much for no more evil speaking of the Lord's anointed. I think even the questioning outside of our stewardship is treading on thin ice, but you go well beyond that, you clearly and unequivocally cast judgement on the prophet and other leaders of the church. You are certainly knowledgeable about a good many things, but in others you are the fool who jumps in where angels fear to tread.

[HeirofNumenorthe Heir Of Numenor]

In 1993 I was in San Diego for the open house and dedication of the temple. Some of the anti-Mormon pamphlets claimed that the Church had no business spending $25 million on the temple ( plus $7 million for the land and $16 million for the office building next door so the Church could secure rights to the parking garage and lots for temple patrons); rather that money should have gone to the poor instead of the temple.
The location, lot dimensions mandated a more expensive design than the planned 6 free-standing spires temple as in Boise, Dallas, and Chicago. While Pres. Hinckley toured another potential site in an average middle class area which allowed for a Boise style temple; he stated that the Holy Ghost rejected that site and confirmed the vastly more expensive La Jolla site. That site has much better access, and much higher visibility of the temple and for the Church- which goes to both PR and missionary work.

[HeirofNumenorthe Heir Of Numenor]

Ps 750,000 toured the San Diego Temple open house - higher than any before or since

[jnjnelsoncaptain of 100]

I for one am not on the road to apostasy, nor am I writing to say that the Church Leaders are incompetent, ignorant or uninspired. I also know that they are truly prophets seers and revelators. My question is just why?

This is an excellent question; thank you very much for asking it. I found your comments very thought-provoking, and I will endeavor to provide my own answers to your questions.


I could think of dozens of reason why the leaders of the Church might use Church resources to purchase property new shopping center. One such reason is outline by the article found at http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/conservation-group-hails-church-for-downtown-salt-lake-city-facelift.

One of the first commandments given to Adam in the garden of Eden was to "replenish" and to "subdue" the earth. (http://www.lds.org/scriptures/ot/gen/1.28#27) Part of replenishing and subduing the earth necessarily includes using resources to improve the physical circumstances of ourselves and those around us (including, and especially, the poor and widows.) The best way to improve the physical prosperity of those who are less physically wealthy is to give them opportunities to enter into economic exchanges. A shopping center provides one such venue for economic exchanges. Specifically, it can provide more job opportunities for more people, thus helping more people get themselves out of poverty through exchanging their work for currency.

Was SLC so run down to invest that kind of money?

Does something need to be run down in order to decide to improve it? I don't think so. I don't consider my house to be run down, but I am constantly making improvements and renovations to my home. In my mind, such improvements coincide with the principle of eternal increase.

But why a project costing billions for something so shallow and apparently devoid of what is good.

What makes you think shopping centers or malls are devoid of what is good? Without economic exchanges, such as those available at centers of commerce like malls, there can be no physical prosperity, and we all become physically poor. If we were all meant to be poor, why would the Lord promise us so many times that we will "prosper in the land" if we keep His commandments. The Lord never discourages us from being or becoming rich, He only encourages us to refrain from setting our hearts upon riches. Malls neither cause nor encourage the love of money - they are merely a venue for economic exchanges. Those who love money will love money with or without shopping malls, and those who have an unhealthy focus on materialism will have that focus with or without shopping malls.

I feel no guilt for asking why. If I feel no guilt and I am not beyond feeling (which I assure you I am not) then I have broke no commandments in not sustaining the Brethren. I accept that I may never have an answer to my why that will satisfy me soon. I trust the Lord and his Servants enough that I know I am not a tare for asking a sincere question.

I'm glad you feel no guilt for asking why. I am completely confident that there is absolutely nothing wrong with asking why.


The criticism and discontent expressed in the introductory comment to this thread, however, is not something that I find spiritually healthy. In fact, I find that type of criticism of the Brethren as spiritually disconcerting as you have described finding shopping malls spiritually disconcerting.

It is simply the extravagance for a purpose the scriptures and prophets seem to be against that is confusing.

I am very interested to learn which scriptures and prophets seem to be against this type of extravagance. Care to elaborate?

[HeirofNumenorthe Heir Of Numenor]

The Hoffman forgeries were purchased so as to have ownership of as many documents from the early days of the church as possible (reorganized church owns a lot more). The salamander was mentioned at the time as a possible folklore reference for spiritual events.
Pres. Hinkley stated that if they treated everything with suspicion (and cynicism) they couldn't function.
In the end, the Hoffman forgeries did NOT impact doctrine, but certainly affected testimonies of many, they thought God should have intervened to block the fraud, sale, and murders - yet God allows evil things to occur to both condemn the wicked and also try the faith of His people.
Many in the Church have failed this test and are now left the Church or on the verge of leaving.

[HeirofNumenorthe Heir Of Numenor]

Those BofM scriptures cited which mention fine sanctuaries, costly clothes, scorning the poor, etc ALSO apply even more so to the American people and Western Christianity - in fact more so.
I find it odd that we become quick to seek out possible flaws in our apostolic leaders, instead of looking at our lives as indiduals.
Are our testimonies of our Lord, His Gospel, and His Church that weak and shaky?

[Glenncaptain of 100]

As far as City Creek is concerned, I'm just learning about some of the details. I believe the idea of beautifying downtown SLC and creating a buffer around Temple Square makes sense. Just the other night my wife and I went to a concert at Temple Square; I distinctly thought how vibrant and beautiful the downtown area had become over time (a good thing).

I’m also concerned that this may be a SLC manifestation of "Agenda21" (The globalist urban development and sustainability agenda). Apparently SLC is an agenda21 city. I saw something similar happen in Tulsa, but in that case they pillaged the taxpayers for 2+ billion dollars for their riverwalk projects. The real devil will be in the details of funding and control, but if the Church has decided to fund this project and have some control over downtown SLC -- and protect taxpayers in the process -- it could prove to be a brilliant move over time.....I understand that struggling LDS families may see this ritzy development as a misuse of tithing funds, but its hard to know for sure what it all means. My opinion is not yet formed on the matter. In the meantime please research Agenda21.

http://www.canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/42555

[reesecaptain of 1,000]

Those BofM scriptures cited which mention fine sanctuaries, costly clothes, scorning the poor, etc ALSO apply even more so to the American people and Western Christianity - in fact more so.
I find it odd that we become quick to seek out possible flaws in our apostolic leaders, instead of looking at our lives as indiduals.
Are our testimonies of our Lord, His Gospel, and His Church that weak and shaky?

These scriptures are almost exclusively directed at our church. Who else claims to be Zion(the ones from Nephi) and who else is the holy church of God in the last days(the ones from Moroni)?

[Thomascaptain of 1,000]

I am just wondering when the late night cleaning asignments will come. Just like all the other church owned buildings in the downtown area, that we clean. That's a lot more work for those of us in the salt lake area.

[ATL Wakecaptain of 1,000]

Those BofM scriptures cited which mention fine sanctuaries, costly clothes, scorning the poor,

Nephi and Mormon were not speaking to Babylon, their audience is the readers of the BOM. Let's be very clear, 2 Nephi 28 is directed to us. Mormon was speaking to us. If you miss that, you miss most of the BOM.