Missionary Work

[Walden]

Well, first post after a bit of a hiatus (Life gets in the way lol).

Found this scripture, I read it and was blown away. Can you see what it is saying?

Doctrine and Covenants Section 84

And again I say unto you, my friends, for from henceforth I shall call you friends, it is expedient that I give unto you this commandment, that ye become even as my friends in days when I was with them, traveling to preach the gospel in my power;

78 For I suffered them not to have purse or scrip, neither two coats.

79 Behold, I send you out to prove the world, and the laborer is worthy of his hire.

80 And any man that shall go and preach this gospel of the kingdom, and fail not to continue faithful in all things, shall not be weary in mind, neither darkened, neither in body, limb, nor joint; and a chair of his head shall not fall to the ground unnoticed. And they shall not go hungry, neither athirst.

81 Therefore, take ye no thought for the morrow, for what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink, or wherewithal ye shall be clothed.

82 For, consider the lilies of the field, how they grow, they toil not, neither do they spin; and the kingdoms of the world, in all their glory, are not arrayed like one of these.

83 For your Father, who is in heaven, knoweth that you have need of all these things.

84 Therefore, let the morrow take thought for the things of itself.

85 Neither take ye thought beforehand what ye shall say; but treasure up in your minds continually the words of life, and it shall be given you in the very hour that portion that shall be meted unto every man.

86 Therefore, let no man among you, for this commandment is unto all the faithful who are called of God in the church unto the ministry, from this hour take purse or scrip, that goeth forth to proclaim this gospel of the kingdom.

87 Behold, I send you out to reprove the world of all their unrighteous deeds, and to teach them of a judgment which is to come.

88 And whoso receiveth you, there I will be also, for I will go before your face. I will be on your right hand and on your left, and my Spirit shall be in your hearts, and mine angels round about you, to bear you up.

89 Whoso receiveth you receiveth me; and the same will feed you, and clothe you, and give you money.

90 And he who feeds you, or clothes you, or gives you money, shall in nowise lose his reward.

91 And he that doeth not these things is not my disciple; by this you may know my disciples.

From what it is saying we have a huge problem with the current missionary program. What do you all think? Keep in mind the success of the early church missionaries, Ammon, Alma, Nephi, the early apostles etc. And the teachings of JS.

[AussieOi]

Well this is less about the Church of Jesus Christ of LDS and more about the way we as people engage what Christianity was when Paul the apostle was out ministering.

Darren has posts on this kind of thing

[Walden]

Not necessarily, Read verse 86.

Therefore, let no man among you, for this commandment is unto all the faithful who are called of God in the church unto the ministry, from this hour take purse or scrip, that goeth forth to proclaim this gospel of the kingdom.

Also the previous verses talk about missionary work. This is explicitly about Missionaries.

[marc]

We are encouraged to save up to finance our own missions. When I was a missionary, I was given a list of things to buy, etc when I went overseas. We live in different times than Joseph Smith did and as well as when Paul did, even the Nephites, etc. Consider that Alma went on a mission of his own and took nothing except probably his own set of scriptures, probably a scroll that he had, which contained writings from the plates of Nephi to expound to the people. He had fasted and prayed mightily as we read in Alma 5, so much so that an angel appeared to Amulek and told him to feed Alma. The same angel appeared to Alma and told him to go back into town (where Amulek lived) and there he would find someone to feed him. This is the same town where there were many lawyers and who's law it was that required at least two witnesses for lawsuits. How interesting that now the town that had kicked Alma out for testifying of God with only one witness had a second witness to testify of the same angel and of God's call to repentance. Anyway, I went off on a tangent. Alma had not taken with him purse or scrip. And yet the Lord saw to it that Alma was take care of and blessed.

[Nan]

Just had stake conference. Bishop Burton reminded us that the words of the living prophet take precedence over the words of dead prophets.

I always find it interesting when people who believe in revelation have a problem with things changing. We believe our prophets can get continuing revelation which means that changes will be made.

[Rand]

Walden, I like the question and observation. I think the answer lies in the second verse when it says, "for the gathering of his saints to stand upon Mount Zion, which shall be the city of New Jerusalem."

The context of the counsel here is pertaining to Saints, not the church as a whole. It pertains to the Saints standing upon Mount Zion or building the New Jerusalem. This brings us to a whole different level of missionary work than what we are doing now. This is more akin to the 144,000 and the work they will do. Study Alma 5 and 13 for more insight into this level of missionary work. Enos, Alma's, the sons of Mosiah, and many others entered this level of missionary work. We will soon.

[Walden]

@Nan, yes but what they say must square up with what has already been revealed.

[Walden]

@Rand, that answer and observations fails to fit in with verse 86. "Therefore, let no man among you, for this commandment is unto all the faithful who are called of God in the church unto the ministry,from this hour take purse or scrip, that goeth forth to proclaim this gospel of the kingdom."

[laronius]

One thing I have learned is that when trying to decipher scripture, I should always start with the framework of what I already know for sure, such as a testimony of living prophets. Not being a church historian I can't point out exactly when the shift took place between no purse or scrip and our current way of handling missionary work, but because of my testimony of living prophets I don't have to know all the details. If this were a case of us members of the church not doing something correctly I could see the point, but something controlled by our church leaders and prophet such as full time missionaries I would have to say they know what they are doing. Of course the responsibility of gaining a testimony of these things for ourselves is ever our burden. So in this case, I also have a testimony of the current system of missionary work, which I gained while serving myself.

[Walden]

I hope this doesn't derail the thread, but this made me wonder if this applies to all the books being sold that are written by church leaders on Gospel topics.... should that knowledge and information be sold for money - or shared freely in order to proclaim the Gospel?

I would say that it can be sold, but ONLY enough money to cover the printing cost, and cost of distributing. I believe any thing more is priestcraft to a lesser extent.

@laronius And that I believe is where you go wrong. They should go hand in hand, if they don't (which they sometimes don't), then ALWAYS go with the scriptures. And blind faith is always a no-no


All this stuff is great, but nobody so far has been able to explain verse 86 away. It clearly states missionary work.

FOR all you who would follow the prophet, just because he is a prophet, I beg of you to rethink

"We have heard men who hold the priesthood remark that they would do anything they were told to do by those who preside over them -- even if they knew it was wrong. But such obedience as this is worse than folly to us. It is slavery in the extreme. The man who would thus willingly degrade himself should not claim a rank among intelligent beings until he turns from his folly.

"A man of God would despise this idea. Others, in the extreme exercise of their almighty authority have taught that such obedience was necessary, and that no matter what the Saints were told to do by their presidents, they should do it without any questions.

"When Elders [leaders] of Israel will so far indulge in these extreme notions of obedience as to teach them to the people, it is generally because they [the leaders] have it in their hearts to do wrong themselves."

-- Joseph Smith, Jr.
Millenial Star, Archive Volume 14, Number 38, Pages 593-595

Obedience is NOT the first law of heaven. The first law of heaven is this.

Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. Matt 22:37-40

[laronius]

Walden, the reason the apostacy took place is not because scripture was lost, but rather because the flow of scripture (revelation) and the priesthood authority was lost. All scripture comes from prophets and that which is canonized is only canonized because the prophets (through revelation) have said it was. You even quoted a prophet in making the point that you can't necessarily trust prophets. But as I said in my original post, the burden eventually rests upon each one of us to learn the truth through the Holy Ghost.

[Walden]

Walden, the reason the apostacy took place is not because scripture was lost, but rather because the flow of scripture (revelation) and the priesthood authority was lost. All scripture comes from prophets and that which is canonized is only canonized because the prophets (through revelation) have said it was. You even quoted a prophet in making the point that you can't necessarily trust prophets. But as I said in my original post, the burden eventually rests upon each one of us to learn the truth through the Holy Ghost.

Agreed, I have no problem with that. But I do have a problem with this "but because of my testimony of living prophets I don't have to know all the details".

[laronius]

What that was in reference to was that I don't know the of the exact revelation that came from God which instituted the change in missionary work. But just like I don't understand much of how Christ was able to suffer for my sins, I still know that he did. Pres. Benson gave an awesome talk about the 14 Fundementals for following the Prophet. I think it some up this discussion really well. In it he states that the living prophet is more vital to us than the standard works.

http://www.lds.org/liahona/1981/06/four ... t?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Walden]

What that was in reference to was that I don't know the of the exact revelation that came from God which instituted the change in missionary work. But just like I don't understand much of how Christ was able to suffer for my sins, I still know that he did. Pres. Benson gave an awesome talk about the 14 Fundementals for following the Prophet. I think it some up this discussion really well. In it he states that the living prophet is more vital to us than the standard works.

http://www.lds.org/liahona/1981/06/four ... t?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Yes, and he had to make an apology for the FD he taught to the quorum of the twelve and the president and his councilors for this talk.

"to protect the church against being misunderstood as ...espousing an unthinking 'follow the leader' mentality."President Kimball

The President of the church was concerned enough to insist Benson apologize for the speech to the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, but according to LDS historian Michael Quinn, some in that quorum were dissatisfied with his response. Kimball then required Elder Benson to explain himself to a combined meeting of all general authorities the following week. This was a big deal to Benson and his family, who feared the possibility of a formal rebuke.

Compare this older doctrine

“Not a man in this Church, since the Prophet Joseph Smith down to the present day, has ever asked any man to do as he was told blindly. No Prophet of God, no Apostle, no President of a Stake, no Bishop, who has had the spirit of his office and calling resting upon him, has ever asked a soul to do anything that they might not know was right and the proper thing to do. We do not ask you to do anything that you may not know it is your duty to do, or that you may not know will be a blessing for you to do.” (Joseph F. Smith, Collected Discourses, ed. Brian H. Stuy, Vol. 3 (Burbank, B.H.S. Publishing 1987-1992).

With the currently taught FD

I remember years ago when I was a Bishop I had President [Heber J.] Grant talk to our ward. After the meeting I drove him home....Standing by me, he put his arm over my shoulder and said: "My boy, you always keep your eye on the President of the Church, and if he ever tells you to do anything, and it is wrong, and you do it, the Lord will bless you for it." Then with a twinkle in his eye, he said, "But you don't need to worry. The Lord will never let his mouthpiece lead the people astray." Elder Benson

Do not think I am attacking Benson the person, he said many many things I agree with. But not this.

[laronius]

I haven't ever read anything about the disagreement over his talk, but I do know that as recently as the October 2010 general conference Elder Costa of the 70 pretty much repeated the entire talk. I guess the point that I was wanting to make initially is that the Lord can change how he wants to run His church and when this occurs it will be done through his servants the prophets. I am in no way espousing blind faith, but neither do I view everything the prophet says through a lense of scepticism. I try to live close to the spirit and act on what the prophet teaches and trust that the Lord will let me know if it isn't right.

[shadow]

Do not think I am attacking Benson the person, he said many many things I agree with. But not this.

Actually it's Pres. Grant that you disagree with. Pres. Benson was just quoting him.

I see no contradiction between the prophets at all.
The Lord is clear- 7 Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.
So we follow the prophet!
Yet we are told to get our own testimonies so we can receive our own revelations for our own little stewardship's (to become "a" prophet, not "the" prophet). We are NOT supposed to follow the prophets blindly, although that may be a start! It isn't that the prophet is going to lead us astray, it's about working out our own salvation. The prophet can't do that for us.

[reese]

@Nan, yes but what they say must square up with what has already been revealed.

And the Lord has stated that all revelations should be published so the saints could read them.

[laronius]

I hope this doesn't derail the thread, but this made me wonder if this applies to all the books being sold that are written by church leaders on Gospel topics.... should that knowledge and information be sold for money - or shared freely in order to proclaim the Gospel?

I think if they were to come out and say that we have to read their books to gain salvation, that would be priestcraft. As it stands they impart all necessary information (scriptures, general conference addresses etc) for exaltation free of charge.

[Walden]

I hope this doesn't derail the thread, but this made me wonder if this applies to all the books being sold that are written by church leaders on Gospel topics.... should that knowledge and information be sold for money - or shared freely in order to proclaim the Gospel?

I think if they were to come out and say that we have to read their books to gain salvation, that would be priestcraft.

Agreed.

[Walden]

I haven't ever read anything about the disagreement over his talk, but I do know that as recently as the October 2010 general conference Elder Costa of the 70 pretty much repeated the entire talk. I guess the point that I was wanting to make initially is that the Lord can change how he wants to run His church and when this occurs it will be done through his servants the prophets. I am in no way espousing blind faith, but neither do I view everything the prophet says through a lense of scepticism. I try to live close to the spirit and act on what the prophet teaches and trust that the Lord will let me know if it isn't right.

Didn't Lord reveal the way the church was to be run in the D+C? I thought we believed in the same organization that existed in the primitive church?

[Nan]

They make no profits off their books. They donate the profits to the missionary fund.

Walden, it kind of feels like you are trying to find reasons so that you don't have to follow the prophet. Am I reading you wrong?

[HeirofNumenor]

back to the Original Post, whenever I see this comment about "without purse or script" appearing in the New Testament (Jesus's Sermon on the Mount), or in the Book of Mormon (resurrected Jesus teaching the Nephites) it actually is limited to those 12 apostles/disciples in each setting. I imagine the D&C verse is a similar limitation.

[Eddie Lyle]

Heir is right on this. If you go up a bit in the section you find this

63 And as I said unto mine apostles, even so I say unto you, for you are mine apostles, even God’s high priests; ye are they whom my Father hath given me; ye are my friends;

Now granted it does say this...

86 Therefore, let no man among you, for this commandment is unto all the faithful who are called of God in the church unto the ministry, from this hour take purse or scrip, that goeth forth to proclaim this gospel of the kingdom.

I don't know about your missions but I was broke on mine, but as the verses promised I didn't have to worry about food or money I was always taken care of. Missionaries today don't have to take purse or script they are taken care of by families and friends at home. Your exegesis probably differs from mine. What does a mission cost these days? $400 a month. I can tell you that where I was in Switzerland that would buy you a cardboard box and a loaf of bread for the month. Without purse and script indeed.

This verse

91 And he that doeth not these things is not my disciple; by this you may know my disciples.

In fact refers to those who reject the missionaries or apostles when you take it in full context....

87 Behold, I send you out to reprove the world of all their unrighteous deeds, and to teach them of a judgment which is to come.

88 And whoso receiveth you, there I will be also, for I will go before your face. I will be on your right hand and on your left, and my Spirit shall be in your hearts, and mine angels round about you, to bear you up.

89 Whoso receiveth you receiveth me; and the same will feed you, and clothe you, and give you money.

90 And he who feeds you, or clothes you, or gives you money, shall in nowise lose his reward.

91 And he that doeth not these things is not my disciple; by this you may know my disciples.

92 He that receiveth you not, go away from him alone by yourselves, and cleanse your feet even with water, pure water, whether in heat or in cold, and bear testimony of it unto your Father which is in heaven, and return not again unto that man.

93 And in whatsoever village or city ye enter, do likewise.

94 Nevertheless, search diligently and spare not; and wo unto that house, or that village or city that rejecteth you, or your words, or your testimony concerning me.

95 Wo, I say again, unto that house, or that village or city that rejecteth you, or your words, or your testimony of me;

96 For I, the Almighty, have laid my hands upon the nations, to scourge them for their wickedness.

97 And plagues shall go forth, and they shall not be taken from the earth until I have completed my work, which shall be cut short in righteousness—

Hugh Nibley was told in his setting apart as a missionary to preach repentance to the folks he was preaching to and if they failed to repent fire would come from heaven and destroy them. He went to Germany pre WWII. He came back to his mission area as a Sergent just after the war and found the cities had been fire bombed and destroyed. It is good not to reject the Lord and his servants.

[jimmy k]

Just had stake conference. Bishop Burton reminded us that the words of the living prophet take precedence over the words of dead prophets.

I always find it interesting when people who believe in revelation have a problem with things changing. We believe our prophets can get continuing revelation which means that changes will be made.

I wish we had some of the dead prophets back for this day and age and I will always will always treasure and live the words they have taught me.

[Nan]

Jimmy, I look forward to meeting or should I say remembering all of the prophets. Can you imagine getting your scriptures autographed? Or being able to tell them answers you received from their words? It will be amazing.