Muhammed, the Muslim prophet

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linj2fly
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Muhammed, the Muslim prophet

Post by linj2fly »

We've been studying Islam in school the past couple of weeks. In light of current events and the unfortunate evolution of Islamaphobia, I thought I'd share a few resources we've used to learn about islamic history. After reading a primer in our history book, we went to the library and checked out some books in the youth section to get some supplementation.

Then we watched this documentary to help gel things together a little more:

Islam: Empire of Faith
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yX3UHNhQ1Zk
There are 3 parts (an hour long each), but the first one is all you need if you want a primer on Muhammed.
Some new things I learned:

--in Mecca there is a tabernacle (Kaba'a) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kabaa. Islamic tradition holds that it was built by Abraham and Ishmael.

--Muhammed claims he was visited over several years by the angel Gabriel.

--The Qu'ran was written by literate followers who wrote down his recitations on bones, parchment, and other material. It was compiled after his death.

-- The groups we know as the Sunni's and the Shi'ites, have their beginnings in 'succession crisis' after Muhammed's death in 632.
(Don't know if I'd call it a crisis though; that may be our western descriptor for it. The shi'ites wanted Muhammed's son-in-law, but he conceded, and the people stayed united. There was no bloodshed over it, as far as I have learned. He eventually became the 4th caliph).

Another resource we've used:

Religions of the World: A Latter-Day Saint View
http://store.lds.org/webapp/wcs/stores/ ... 5616888731
(A great reference for comparative religion)This reference devotes 40 pages to Islam.

New to me:
--Allah is the name for 'God' in Arabic; All arab-speaking Jews and Christians, including LDS branches, use the word, "Allah."
--Islam literally means 'submission' or 'surrender' to God. This religion is greatly focused on unity with God and eachother.
--Historically, as a rule, Islamic governments have been more tolerant (than Christians/Jews) to the practice of religions other than Islam within it's borders; however, they strictly prohibit non-muslims from proselyting.

A great list on Wikipedia about the similarities and differences between Mormonism and Islam:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormonism_ ... te_note-53
(New to me: they believe in the second coming of Jesus, who defeats the anti-Christ; though, there is a different narrative to this prophecy than ours).

And in the Aug. 2000 Ensign....
A Latter-day Saint Perspective on Muhammad (by James Toronto, a contributor to the book I mentioned above).
http://lds.org/ensign/2000/08/a-latter- ... d?lang=eng

After viewing many of these things, I pondered how to interpret/reconcile Muhammed...

One of the greatest things he did for the people is restore them to the God of Abraham. Prior to this they were polytheistic idol-worshippers. In contemplating the veracity of Gabriel visiting Muhammed, my one hang-up is the lack of declaration that Jesus is the Son of God, Savior of the world. However I did come across these quotes:

http://emp.byui.edu/SatterfieldB/FDINT2 ... 01978.html
First Presidency Statement:
The great religious leaders of the world such as Mohammed, Confucius, and the Reformers, as well as philosophers including Socrates, Plato, and others, received a portion of God's light. Moral truths were given to them by God to enlighten whole nations and to bring a higher level of understanding to individuals.
Elder Orson F. Whitney, in a conference address, explained that many great religious leaders were inspired. He said: "[God] is using not only his covenant people, but other peoples as well, to consummate a work, stupendous, magnificent, and altogether too arduous for this little handful of Saints to accomplish by themselves. . . .

"All down the ages men bearing the authority of the Holy Priesthood--patriarchs, prophets, apostles and others, have officiated in the name of the Lord, doing the things the he required of them; and outside the pale of their activities other good and great men, not bearing the Priesthood, but possessing profundity of thought, great wisdom, and a desire to uplift their fellows, have been sent by the Almighty into many nations, to give them, not the fulness of the Gospel, but that portion of the truth that they were able to receive and wisely use."(Conference Report, April 1921, 32-33.) Quoted by Pres. Hunter in "The Gospel: A Global Faith"
Last edited by linj2fly on November 25th, 2011, 12:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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seer stone
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Re: Muhammed, the Muslim prophet

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Thanks for shedding light on this. The media seems to make Americans think that Muslims are all religious extremist--a religion full of terrorist. I've always believed that they just want the west to stop meddling in their affairs.

Has anyone seen the movie "A man named Kahn"? I watched it on netflix and I thought it was very inspiring. Kahn seemed like a Muslim "Forrest Gump". I would recommend it to anyone.

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durangout
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Re: Muhammed, the Muslim prophet

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You should really read the book The Politcally Incorrect Guide to Islam to "round out" your studies. You can get it at the public library.

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Oldemandalton
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Re: Muhammed, the Muslim prophet

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linj2fly, just curious but what did they teach you about Islam’s history of jihad?

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seer stone
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Re: Muhammed, the Muslim prophet

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durangout wrote:You should really read the book The Politcally Incorrect Guide to Islam to "round out" your studies. You can get it at the public library.
I've just read some reviews on this book. Do you think that President Obama who is Muslim is purposely directing the affairs of our government through executive orders to set up a direct conflict and takeover of power and establish our country as an Islamic threshold?
The book shows just how mainstream the culture of jihad is, and has always been, within the Islamic community. This even includes the large portion of Muslims that have been labelled ‘peaceful’ by the establishment. Most of these, so called, ‘peace loving Muslims’ have the same goal as the extremists – the only difference is that they have not yet taken up arms. This is often because ‘peaceful’ Muslims have found it is more effective to work through the jihad of ideas (more about that in a minute). Other Muslims who claim that Islam is a religion of peace are referring to the peace that will prevail when the entire world is under the hegemony of sharia law. Similar verbal gymnastics underpin the claim that jihad is a purely defensive conflict. As Mr. Spencer points out, ‘if a country is perceived to be hindering the spread of Islam, Muslims are obliged to wage war against it. This would, of course, be a defensive conflict, since the hindrances came first.

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Re: Muhammed, the Muslim prophet

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We met a delightful Muslim couple from Kuwait on a recent vacation we were blessed to go on. We learned many Insightful things about their religion and culture. We basically came to the conclusion that the way the media has grouped all Muslims as terrorists would be equal as comparing all Christians as Westboro Baptists.
Last edited by BigMomma on November 24th, 2011, 10:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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linj2fly
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Re: Muhammed, the Muslim prophet

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durangout wrote:You should really read the book The Politcally Incorrect Guide to Islam to "round out" your studies. You can get it at the public library.
Thanks for the recommendations :-) I checked out the book on Amazon, and I must say, I cringed at the author's credentials:
ROBERT SPENCER is the director of Jihad Watch, a program of the David Horowitz Freedom Center, and the author of ten books, including the New York Times bestsellers The Truth About Muhammad and The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam (and the Crusades) (both Regnery). He is coauthor, with Pamela Geller, of The Post-American Presidency: The Obama Administration's War On America (Threshold Editions/Simon & Schuster).

Spencer is a weekly columnist for Human Events and FrontPage Magazine, and has led seminars on Islam and jihad for the United States Central Command, United States Army Command and General Staff College, the U.S. Army's Asymmetric Warfare Group, the FBI, the Joint Terrorism Task Force, and the U.S. intelligence community.

Spencer has also written eleven monographs and well over three hundred articles about jihad and Islamic terrorism. In addition to the above books, he is the author of Islam Unveiled: Disturbing Questions About the World's Fastest Growing Faith (Encounter); Onward Muslim Soldiers: How Jihad Still Threatens America and the West (Regnery); Religion of Peace? Why Christianity Is and Islam Isn't (Regnery), a refutation of moral equivalence and call for all the beneficiaries and heirs of Judeo-Christian Western civilization, whatever their own religious or philosophical perspective may be, to defend it from the global jihad; Stealth Jihad: How Radical Islam is Subverting America without Guns or Bombs (Regnery), an expose of how jihadist groups are advancing their agenda in the U.S. today by means other than terrorist attacks; and The Complete Infidel's Guide to the Koran (Regnery). He is coauthor, with Daniel Ali, of Inside Islam: A Guide for Catholics (Ascension), and editor of the essay collection The Myth of Islamic Tolerance: How Islamic Law Treats Non-Muslims (Prometheus). Spencer's books have been translated into many languages, including Spanish, Italian, Finnish, Korean, and Bahasa Indonesia.

Along with his weekly columns, Spencer has completed a weekly Qur'an commentary at Jihad Watch, Blogging the Qur'an, which has been translated into Czech, Danish, German, Italian, Spanish and Portuguese. He is a contributing writer to Steven Emerson's Investigative Project on Terrorism. His articles on Islam and other topics have appeared in the New York Post, the Washington Times, the Dallas Morning News, the UK's Guardian, Canada's National Post, Middle East Quarterly, WorldNet Daily, First Things, Insight in the News, National Review Online, and many other journals.

Spencer has discussed jihad, Islam, and terrorism at a workshop sponsored by the U.S. State Department and the German Foreign Ministry. He has also appeared on the BBC, ABC News, CNN, FoxNews's O'Reilly Factor, the Sean Hannity Show, the Glenn Beck Show, Fox and Friends, and many other Fox programs, PBS, MSNBC, CNBC, C-Span, France24 and Croatia National Televison (HTV), as well as on numerous radio programs including Bill O'Reilly's Radio Factor, The Laura Ingraham Show, Bill Bennett's Morning in America, Michael Savage's Savage Nation, The Sean Hannity Show, The Alan Colmes Show, The G. Gordon Liddy Show, The Neal Boortz Show, The Michael Medved Show, The Michael Reagan Show, The Rusty Humphries Show, The Larry Elder Show, The Barbara Simpson Show, Vatican Radio, and many others. He has been a featured speaker at Dartmouth College, Stanford University, New York University, Brown University, the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, the University of Virginia, the College of William and Mary, Washington University of St. Louis, the University of Wisconsin at Madison, the University of Wisconsin at Milwaukee, and many other colleges and universities.
Methinks he will be NO FAN of islam. I must say that when I study other religions, I keep in mind the persistent misunderstandings and mischaracterizations by others about my own religion. When I study a religion, I try to keep in mind Krister Standel's first rule of interfaith dialogue:
Truman Madsen: “Professor Krister Stendahl, of Harvard Divinity School, became the Bishop of Stockholm, in Sweden. During a visit we made there, he called a press conference, invited various of his friends, and then said the following;

“He said, ‘I have three rules for interfaith discussion, to wit:

Number one: If you’re going to ask the question, what do others believe, in their various faiths, ask them – not their critics, not their enemies.’” (see also Mauss Interview)

Stendahl: “Because what one religious tradition says about another is usually a breach against the commandment, ‘Thou shalt not bear false witness’.”
http://summatheologica.wordpress.com/20 ... ew-part-1/
So, for example, don't ask a Southern Baptist what Mormons believe. At best, it would be regarded as their 'views' about what Mormons believe.

After reading Robert Spencer's wikipedia page, I learned he is decidedly a critic of Islam. So you're right...his book would certainly round out my studies, so I do appreciate the recommendation, and will check that one out, too, while at the same time remembering he has a bias. (The documentary I mentioned above was definitely on the other end of the spectrum. The book I mentioned, Religions of the World: An LDS perspective (text for REL 393 at BYU) is more balanced.)

After reading it, I think I will watch the youtube videos of the debate between Robert Spencer and BYU's Daniel C. Petersen at the Freedom Fest 2008/9ish (something like that)

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Re: Muhammed, the Muslim prophet

Post by paper face »

linj2fly, thank-you for the helpful info.

To me the desire to consider all Muslims suspect is not a function of the light of Christ. It is an apparatus of the natural man who functions via fear, blame, and Descartes' doctrine of doubt. It is part of the veil of the adversary.

If he can keep us at odds with each other, he can perpetuate his lies about this family that we are in. The truth is that sons and daughters of Eve are sacred. The Lord placed enmity into all who are her seed, and that enmity is towards the adversary and his veils of evil. But if he can contort that enmity into a hatred of your brothers and sisters, then it becomes easy for him to play us like fiddles. It becomes easy for him to raise profane tithes to buy up armies, navies, and false priests who oppress and destroy. It becomes easy for him to reign with blood and horror.

Do we perpetuate his plan by continuing to demonize a culture that represents a billion people? Or is it better to simply follow Christ's commandment to publish peace? I would rather die like the Anti-Nephi-Lehis and convert a broken hearted enemy than take up the sword against him. Our families and our country aren't "safe" at all if Christ is abandoned.

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linj2fly
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Re: Muhammed, the Muslim prophet

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Oldemandalton wrote:linj2fly, just curious but what did they teach you about Islam’s history of jihad?
I first teach the doctrinal definition of jihad per "Religions of the World: A Latter-Day Saint View" (which has been used in institute classes):
Jihad: Literally means "striving" or "struggling" to serve God and the Umma (the worldwide muslim community). In a narrower sense, it sometimes involves armed struggle against outside aggression and is therefore sometimes translated as "holy war."
Muslims sometimes speak of the principle of jihad as a sixth pillar of Islam. The word is usually mistranslated in English as "holy war," but the Arabic root does not denote holiness or war. The literal meaning is "struggle" or "striving," meaning to exert oneself in the service of Allah. The Qur'an teaches that jihad involves violent struggle only under certain well-defined and restricted circumstances, such as defending family, home, religion, and innocent people against outside aggression. In everyday practice, jihad is a word that encompasses virtually every aspect of a Muslim's life and signifies the daily striving for self-improvement and the prosperity of the umma by various means such as performing charitable deeds, giving money, speaking truth, working for justice. "Those who believe, and emigrate and strive with might and main, in Allah's cause with their goods, and their persons, have the highest rank in the sight of Allah: they are the people who will achieve (salvation)" (Qur'an 9:20). A familiar hadith states that Muhammad, while returning from a battle with the Meccans, informed the Muslim combatants that they were leaving behind the 'lesser jihad' (military struggle) and taking up again the 'greater jihad' (the struggle against the evil inclinations of the soul).
If the underlined is true, then it's really not much different from our own doctrine. (That certainly doesn't mean people will not stretch/twist teachings to fit/justify their own unrighteous actions).

We are studying world history in the middle ages this year (specifically 400 to 1500). If you are referring to jihad in the form of conquests from Spain to Indonesia, we have talked about the pattern of conquest ad nauseum in our study of world history. It's really quite hard to avoid, as it replete with city-state after city-state seeking conquest over others, and then empire after empire following the same pattern even until the present time (it's been done exactly as Satan said he would do it). As a whole, I see the same thing with the conquesting caliphates of the middle ages. They also had their own problems, like all other empires, with power hungry people seeking seats of power through intrigues/conspiracy, etc, etc. Sometimes reading a simple survey of some of these empires from the vantage point of succession of leaders is like it was lifted right out of the pages of Ether. Despite the dark things, we've also enjoyed talking about the apparent 'renaissance' they had well before our Western Renaissance. It's been fascinating to learn what they picked up from the Greeks and others, how they advanced from their, how their technologies spread, and how that influenced our own renaissance.

If you are referring to modern Islamic history regarding jihad, we'll be there in 2 years. :-) The book I've been quoting has a good discussion about jihad in modern contexts.

I'm certainly not done learning, but as I go, I try to separate the beliefs of others from the unrighteous actions of their rulers. I don't think it's a fair assessment to judge the gospel of Jesus Christ on the actions of rulers of the middle age Europe, as has been done. I feel caution to refrain to do so as I learn about Islam, which was a religion first, and then very quickly morphed into a political power.

This quote from the same book sums up how I feel:
Extremists who rationalize violence in the name of God can be found in the history of every religious tradition, including that of Latter-day Saints. The point is not to justify violent acts of religious extremists, but to encourage students to analyze and understand the conditions that create one of the great paradoxes in the study of world religions: the growth of hatred, bigotry, and violence in the same spiritual soil that produces love, tolerance, and peace.
(That last line sure sounds like wheat and tare stuff, huh?)

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Oldemandalton
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Re: Muhammed, the Muslim prophet

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I believe that most moderate Muslims are trying to follow their religion as we are. The problem is that the Radicals Islamists are louder, more violent and are using the historical definition of Jihad. The Jihadists are growing in number and so is the hate they inspire. Study the history of Jihad in the past. It is being repeated.
History of Jihad Page

History of Jihad against the Greeks (1450-1853)
The History of Jihad against Austria (1500 - 1683)
History of Jihad against the Turks (650-1050)
History of Jihad against the Poles, Lithuanians, Belarusians and Ukrainians (1444 -1699)
History of Jihad against the Nubians - modern Sudanese, Ethiopians, Eritreans and Somalis (640 - 2004)
History of Jihad against the Armenian and Georgian Christians (1071–1920)
History of Jihad against the Hindus of India, Pakistan and Bangladesh (638 -- Ongoing)
History of the Jihad against Germany (1529 - Ongoing)
History of the Jihad against Malaysia, Indonesia, Thailand & Philippines (1441 --)
History of Jihad against the Italians in Rome & Sicily (812 -1571)
History of Jihad against the Egyptian Coptic Christians (640-655)
History of Jihad against the Franks (France) [732-740]
History of Jihad against the Serbs, Croats, and Albanians [1389 to 1920]
History of Jihad against the Mongols (1050-1258)
Hitler and Khamenei : Nazis of Yesterday and Qazis and Ghazis of Today
History of Jihad against the Russians (1444-1918)
History of Jihad against the Byzantine Christians of Syria, Jordan and Turkey (634-1453)
The History of Jihad against the Spanish and the Portuguese (711-1492)
History of Jihad against the Buddhist Chinese (650 -751)
http://www.islam-watch.org/HistoryOfJihad/

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Re: Muhammed, the Muslim prophet

Post by paper face »

Oldemandalton wrote:The problem is that the Radicals Islamists are louder, more violent and are using the historical definition of Jihad. The Jihadists are growing in number and so is the hate they inspire. Study the history of Jihad in the past. It is being repeated.
And then do what? "Prepare"? "Judge"? Aren't you really just inviting us into a grudge being held against a group of people? That website you posted is all about perpetuating a grudge. If religious fanaticism, as the site indicates, is the most dangerous form of fanaticism, then all Christians, LDS included, are just as suspect as any eastern religion. In fact, Mormons have a scripture that says it's ok to kill if the Lord commands. What if outsiders were to judge us based on 1 Nephi?

The Jihadists are growing. So what? What can I do to protect myself against their growing numbers? Their numbers were boosted by the war in Iraq, not by their "loud extremists". Shall I hate them back? Support awareness campaigns? What a waste of time.

The Lord says to "stand in holy places". I don't see where studying the history of one culture's legacy of vendetta is very useful in that endeavor. Once you embrace Christ, you forgive murderers. You forgive the guys that perpetrated 9/11. Jesus said "vengeance is mine" 6 times in scripture, and you want me to read up over at islam-watch?

No thanks. Most of us that will be killed by others in the coming trials will be killed by Americans, not by foreign hands. And before that, cancer, car accidents and garbage disposals will get you before a terrorist will.

If you believe Christ's words to be the truth, then you understand the fact that those who want to kill you can't actually harm you in any sense that matters. They can only harm you physically. If that matters to you, then you either don't believe Christ or you don't want to obey him. You want the grudge instead of the Atonement.

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. - Matt 10:28

And why fear the adversary? Because he's always tying puppet strings to your wrists and ankles. Far more important than what's going on in the world is what is going on inside you.

The Book of Mormon indicates that the Lord allows the wicked to be a scourge unto those who inhabit promised lands only when they themselves have fallen into wickedness.

You're righteous, aren't you Dalton? If so, then why publish war? Why live by the sword at all?

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Re: Muhammed, the Muslim prophet

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This thread came just in time. After I met the Elders for an appointment to teach a Pakistani Muslim today, I shared some of the insights from this thread with them, including the reference to that great Aug 2000 Ensign article. They will read it and share it with the man during their next visit. I hope I will be available to attend that visit, as well.

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Re: Muhammed, the Muslim prophet

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The link above didnt work, so for those who are interested, the Ensign article can be found at the below.

http://lds.org/ensign/2000/08/a-latter- ... d?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Muhammed, the Muslim prophet

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paper face wrote:
Oldemandalton wrote:The problem is that the Radicals Islamists are louder, more violent and are using the historical definition of Jihad. The Jihadists are growing in number and so is the hate they inspire. Study the history of Jihad in the past. It is being repeated.
And then do what? "Prepare"? "Judge"? Aren't you really just inviting us into a grudge being held against a group of people? That website you posted is all about perpetuating a grudge. If religious fanaticism, as the site indicates, is the most dangerous form of fanaticism, then all Christians, LDS included, are just as suspect as any eastern religion. In fact, Mormons have a scripture that says it's ok to kill if the Lord commands. What if outsiders were to judge us based on 1 Nephi?

The Jihadists are growing. So what? What can I do to protect myself against their growing numbers? Their numbers were boosted by the war in Iraq, not by their "loud extremists". Shall I hate them back? Support awareness campaigns? What a waste of time.

The Lord says to "stand in holy places". I don't see where studying the history of one culture's legacy of vendetta is very useful in that endeavor. Once you embrace Christ, you forgive murderers. You forgive the guys that perpetrated 9/11. Jesus said "vengeance is mine" 6 times in scripture, and you want me to read up over at islam-watch?

No thanks. Most of us that will be killed by others in the coming trials will be killed by Americans, not by foreign hands. And before that, cancer, car accidents and garbage disposals will get you before a terrorist will.

If you believe Christ's words to be the truth, then you understand the fact that those who want to kill you can't actually harm you in any sense that matters. They can only harm you physically. If that matters to you, then you either don't believe Christ or you don't want to obey him. You want the grudge instead of the Atonement.

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. - Matt 10:28

And why fear the adversary? Because he's always tying puppet strings to your wrists and ankles. Far more important than what's going on in the world is what is going on inside you.

The Book of Mormon indicates that the Lord allows the wicked to be a scourge unto those who inhabit promised lands only when they themselves have fallen into wickedness.

You're righteous, aren't you Dalton? If so, then why publish war? Why live by the sword at all?
Sorry but I think you completely misunderstand: No one in this thread is promoting hatred towards muslims. What is being said is be aware of evil and protect against it. Or are you saying Captain Moroni was wrong in building up defenses against the Lamanites? Or Lachoneus perhaps?

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Re: Muhammed, the Muslim prophet

Post by Tribunal »

I liken the Muslim and Mormon religions like I do socialism and the United Order. There is a huge difference and to compare the two is kind of silly!

In my experience the Muslims the West believe practice Radical Islam are those who follow true Islam, whereas the Muslims the West believe are passive in their religion would be similar to Jack Mormons. Only difference is the faithful members of the LDS Church don't kill the Jack Mormons!

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Re: Muhammed, the Muslim prophet

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Paper Face;
And then do what? "Prepare"? "Judge"? Aren't you really just inviting us into a grudge being held against a group of people? That website you posted is all about perpetuating a grudge. If religious fanaticism, as the site indicates, is the most dangerous form of fanaticism, then all Christians, LDS included, are just as suspect as any eastern religion. In fact, Mormons have a scripture that says it's ok to kill if the Lord commands. What if outsiders were to judge us based on 1 Nephi?

History is something we have to live with. Islam had the Jihads they used to spread their religion but so did Medieval “Christianity”. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_conversion

Repentance is not only an individual process but I believe it can also apply to cultures, nations and whole religions. Most of Christianity has grown from or repented of their past. We as Christians must make sure that this doesn’t happen again. Same goes for Muslims, it should be up to them to reinforce the peaceful, spiritual meaning of jihad, not what the extremists of the past and present has made it. Unfortunately the radicals are more violent, are eager to die for their cause and intimidate the true Muslims. We ALL must learn from our past and not ignore it.

“The Truth has no agenda”.


The Jihadists are growing. So what? What can I do to protect myself against their growing numbers? Their numbers were boosted by the war in Iraq, not by their "loud extremists". Shall I hate them back? Support awareness campaigns? What a waste of time.

Jihadism has been growing, in the modern era, since the breakup of the Ottoman Empire (the last Caliphate) after WW I in 1923. The Muslim Brotherhood was founded by Islamic radicals soon after the collapse of the Ottoman Empire and opposed the ‘modernization’ and secularization of the Islamic nations. Many of the terrorists groups in existence today came from the Muslim Brotherhood. Their ultimate goal is the rebirth of a Middle East Caliphate ruled under sharia law.

What can we do? First educate yourself in the history of the region, if you don’t you’ll be susceptible to lies and propaganda of the LDGs who are using us against each other. Next don’t help spread the lies and propaganda, which just feeds the beast. Next do as Mattctr and BigMomma are doing, love them, help them and be a good example of a follower of Christ. Invite them to receive the missionaries if the Spirit so prompts.
Knowledge is Power.


The Lord says to "stand in holy places". I don't see where studying the history of one culture's legacy of vendetta is very useful in that endeavor. Once you embrace Christ, you forgive murderers. You forgive the guys that perpetrated 9/11. Jesus said "vengeance is mine" 6 times in scripture, and you want me to read up over at islam-watch?

Yes forgive, I never said to do otherwise. Reading of history is important so that we LEARN from it and not repeat the iniquities of the past. That is a part of repentance also. Groups like Islam Watch, MEMRI and Palestinian Media Watch give us the side of Islam we don’t get in the LDG controlled media today. It is not politically correct to say anything negative about Islam, heaven forbid they say something even remotely positive about Christianity.

No thanks. Most of us that will be killed by others in the coming trials will be killed by Americans, not by foreign hands. And before that, cancer, car accidents and garbage disposals will get you before a terrorist will.

How depressing of an outlook especially after a day we celebrate to give thanks to God for our blessings.

If you believe Christ's words to be the truth, then you understand the fact that those who want to kill you can't actually harm you in any sense that matters. They can only harm you physically. If that matters to you, then you either don't believe Christ or you don't want to obey him. You want the grudge instead of the Atonement.
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. - Matt 10:28
And why fear the adversary? Because he's always tying puppet strings to your wrists and ankles. Far more important than what's going on in the world is what is going on inside you.
The Book of Mormon indicates that the Lord allows the wicked to be a scourge unto those who inhabit promised lands only when they themselves have fallen into wickedness.

I am not afraid for my life, Parper Face, but I really do love Capitan Moroni’s words on the Title of Liberty “In memory of our God, our religion, and freedom, and our peace, our wives, and our children”. These I will defend against LDGs, gangs and mobs, and against any religious fanatic who wants to take over my country. What they do overseas is their problem.

You're righteous, aren't you Dalton? No, but trying everyday :D . If so, then why publish war? Why live by the sword at all?
“Publish war” Paper Face? When have I done so? Did Moroni “publish war” with the Title of Liberty”? All I asked was if linj2fly had also studied the history of Jihad in Islam’s past. History should never be ignored. It tends to be repeated by those who do.


OMD :)

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linj2fly
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Re: Muhammed, the Muslim prophet

Post by linj2fly »

Oldemandalton wrote:I believe that most moderate Muslims are trying to follow their religion as we are. The problem is that the Radicals Islamists are louder, more violent and are using the historical definition of Jihad. The Jihadists are growing in number and so is the hate they inspire. Study the history of Jihad in the past. It is being repeated.
History of Jihad Page

History of Jihad against the Greeks (1450-1853)
The History of Jihad against Austria (1500 - 1683)
History of Jihad against the Turks (650-1050)
History of Jihad against the Poles, Lithuanians, Belarusians and Ukrainians (1444 -1699)
History of Jihad against the Nubians - modern Sudanese, Ethiopians, Eritreans and Somalis (640 - 2004)
History of Jihad against the Armenian and Georgian Christians (1071–1920)
History of Jihad against the Hindus of India, Pakistan and Bangladesh (638 -- Ongoing)
History of the Jihad against Germany (1529 - Ongoing)
History of the Jihad against Malaysia, Indonesia, Thailand & Philippines (1441 --)
History of Jihad against the Italians in Rome & Sicily (812 -1571)
History of Jihad against the Egyptian Coptic Christians (640-655)
History of Jihad against the Franks (France) [732-740]
History of Jihad against the Serbs, Croats, and Albanians [1389 to 1920]
History of Jihad against the Mongols (1050-1258)
Hitler and Khamenei : Nazis of Yesterday and Qazis and Ghazis of Today
History of Jihad against the Russians (1444-1918)
History of Jihad against the Byzantine Christians of Syria, Jordan and Turkey (634-1453)
The History of Jihad against the Spanish and the Portuguese (711-1492)
History of Jihad against the Buddhist Chinese (650 -751)
http://www.islam-watch.org/HistoryOfJihad/
We have thus far learned about early islamic expansion (insert...military conquest, or jihad led by caliphs),The Umayyad dynasty, and the Abbasid dynasty, and conquests during these periods.

Here's another list:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_conquests

That these people expanded by armed conflict with religious leaders at the head and by religious justification is indisputable. I don't see much difference between them and so many of the empires that came before and after them. Religious feelings/beliefs/doctrine are the oft exploited means by which leaders can justify their conquests.

Do you think that the religion of Islam, itself, is the problem, or the historical interpretation and application of its doctrine by these conquering caliphs and present day radicals? (Just want some clarification on where you're coming from).

This is the question posed by Dr. Peterson in his debate with Robert Spencer (I went ahead and watched it, b/c my library, and the one in the next town over, doesn't have the book durangout recommended, so I'll have to interlibrary loan it, which can take awhile. It was a good discussion, btw; both speakers brought up some good points to consider. It starts at this link. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PdJnYJc1bk). Dr. Peterson's view is that the question of whether or not Islam is a threat should be phrased as such, "Is Islam inherently violent?" which he argues by going back to what the Qu'ran actually says and not the way it has been later interpreted or even made into law. He also makes the point that Islam has not had a 'reformation' in the sense that Christianity did, and that one is needed. I think that's what I got out of it (he kind of talks fast...I think b/c the debate is timed; I'll probably have to find some of his papers on the subject to get where he is coming from).

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linj2fly
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Re: Muhammed, the Muslim prophet

Post by linj2fly »

morefiyah wrote:The link above didnt work, so for those who are interested, the Ensign article can be found at the below.

http://lds.org/ensign/2000/08/a-latter- ... d?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Thanks, morefiyah :-). I just fixed it in my OP. I think I had it linked to the old version of lds.org and it must have not copied over right.

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Re: Muhammed, the Muslim prophet

Post by paper face »

[quote="Oldemandalton"]History is something we have to live with. Islam had the Jihads they used to spread their religion but so did Medieval “Christianity”. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_conversion

You're presenting a very narrow thread of Muslim history by posting the link that you did. Just tell me honestly: Is it a thread that inspires faith, or is it one that encourages doubt? Does it speak more of forgiveness or of holding a grudge? What about their history of science, spirituality, art and culture? What if I shared a history of Alma the younger that only included his tearing down of the church of his day?

Most of Christianity has grown from or repented of their past.

In your mind, perhaps. But you're not the judge. We'll find out very soon about the depth and sincerity of the cumulative gentile repentance.

We ALL must learn from our past and not ignore it.

Completely agree, and this includes owning up to your own sins while simultaneously allowing others to own up to theirs in their own time.

“The Truth has no agenda”.

But the presentation of it often does. There is no such thing as a history that is free of agenda, and you can't show me a single example.

Jihadism has been growing, in the modern era, since the breakup of the Ottoman Empire (the last Caliphate) after WW I in 1923. The Muslim Brotherhood was founded by Islamic radicals soon after the collapse of the Ottoman Empire and opposed the ‘modernization’ and secularization of the Islamic nations. Many of the terrorists groups in existence today came from the Muslim Brotherhood. Their ultimate goal is the rebirth of a Middle East Caliphate ruled under sharia law.

Brilliant. What say we inspire hundreds of millions of non-radical Muslims to join their ranks? We could do this by invading a country that is dominantly peopled by Muslims and kill hundreds of thousands of civilians. We can throw a trillion dollars in the sand to blow humans into pieces, allow the CIA to send in drones to wipe out any group that are suspect, and then we can cite the Book of Mormon as support for the whole endeavor. What do you think?

First educate yourself in the history of the region, if you don’t you’ll be susceptible to lies and propaganda of the LDGs who are using us against each other. Next don’t help spread the lies and propaganda, which just feeds the beast.

The link you posted doesn't protect anyone. It, in fact, feeds the beast because it presents Islam as a culture of jihad only. It serves the interests of the Adversary because it presents absolutely no one as the sacred children of God. THAT is the truth that speaks knowledge to power.

Reading of history is important so that we LEARN from it and not repeat the iniquities of the past. That is a part of repentance also.

Why are you concerned with pointing out their sins and calling for their repentance? If you forgive them, preach pure doctrine. Preach the scriptures, and specifically the words of Christ. Your Islam-watch link does nothing of the sort.

Groups like Islam Watch, MEMRI and Palestinian Media Watch give us the side of Islam we don’t get in the LDG controlled media today. It is not politically correct to say anything negative about Islam, heaven forbid they say something even remotely positive about Christianity.

Your grudge is revealed right here. Are you upset about political correctness? Do you want things to be "fair"? Too bad. You were born into the wrong world.

I would suggest that you cease your intake of media of any sort. "Balancing" out the agendas of various news forums isn't going to help you arrive at the truth. The truth is in the words of Christ. Period.

Do you want to be informed, Dalton? Inquire of the Lord. Just like Joseph Smith. Don't waste your time with the media outlets you suggested. They are calculated to massage an ideology, not remit the "truth".

How depressing of an outlook especially after a day we celebrate to give thanks to God for our blessings.

The truth has no agenda, brother. Cancer and car accidents are the mortal truth for far more Americans than have been killed by terrorists. Since you like Thanksgiving, hopefully you answered the gift that the Lord gave you (your body temple) by eating sensibly and modestly. Because if the body is a temple, then you have a serious stewardship to it. All action is temple work, including what you say, eat and think. If you are "depressed" by the notions of opposition that I presented, then perhaps it's time to revisit Christ's words. I suggest you begin with Ether 12.

I am not afraid for my life, Parper Face, but I really do love Capitan Moroni’s words on the Title of Liberty “In memory of our God, our religion, and freedom, and our peace, our wives, and our children”. These I will defend against LDGs, gangs and mobs, and against any religious fanatic who wants to take over my country. What they do overseas is their problem.

A lot of American Mormons love the Title of Liberty because they are religious fanatics of national pride. But we aren't facing the crisis that he faced so the TOL is not really applicable. The Mormons of the original church were saturated in the words of the apocalypse and revelation, but now their progeny are dominantly saturated in American patriotism. But where are the modern Mormons that believe as the Anti-nephi-lehis? Where are the sons of Mosiah who want to serve their missions in enemy territory? They don't exist in the current church because they are an anathema to a culture that has given itself to war mongering... much like the Nephites of the latter part of the BOM.

Did Moroni “publish war” with the Title of Liberty”?

Moroni had to separate the wheat from the tares in his own country in the face of annihilation. You are not in his shoes or his circumstances. Focusing on the history of jihad doesn't "save" anyone, much less ennoble them. It is like presenting the entirety of Mormonism as the Utah War and the Mountain Meadows Massacre. Hence, it is closer to upholding a grudge than it is an expression of forgiveness.

War doesn't make people Christ-like. It turns them into dogs.

All I asked was if linj2fly had also studied the history of Jihad in Islam’s past. History should never be ignored. It tends to be repeated by those who do.

It's really ALL of human history that is important to study. Not just a single violent thread meant to illicit a fanatic response and feed faith & tithes into a profane war that was authored by the Adversary, AKA the real enemy. The faster you realize the real war that we are in, the faster you will be able to actually do good among your fellow men. Politics only serve agendas and markets. Christ serves individuals by passing them through the veils of belonging. Learn the difference.

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Re: Muhammed, the Muslim prophet

Post by paper face »

durangout wrote:What is being said is be aware of evil and protect against it. Or are you saying Captain Moroni was wrong in building up defenses against the Lamanites? Or Lachoneus perhaps?
Defense is fine. Invading countries pre-emptively is not. According to the BOM, anyway.

Meaning that our country has already acted wickedly and will certainly reap a wicked harvest. Your post presupposes that we are somehow still in the right. In truth, we are ripe for destruction. And the Lord will allow it. No amount of Jihad education can protect us from that now. We are already in the post-pre-emptive Nephite context.

Do you want to be aware of evil? Root it out in your own life so that the Lord will protect you from the cleansing that is coming. Don't give yourself to the book you suggested, you already have a script. It is the standard works.

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Re: Muhammed, the Muslim prophet

Post by seer stone »

These were the words of Captain Moroni:
Alma 60:23
23 Do ye suppose that God will look upon you as guiltless while ye sit still and behold these things? Behold I say unto you, Nay. Now I would that ye should remember that God has said that the inward vessel shall be cleansed first, and then shall the outer vessel be cleansed also.

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Oldemandalton
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Re: Muhammed, the Muslim prophet

Post by Oldemandalton »

Paperface:

You're presenting a very narrow thread of Muslim history by posting the link that you did. Just tell me honestly: Is it a thread that inspires faith, or is it one that encourages doubt? Does it speak more of forgiveness or of holding a grudge? What about their history of science, spirituality, art and culture? What if I shared a history of Alma the younger that only included his tearing down of the church of his day?

I was answering a response paperface, not reciting the entire history of the Religion of Islam. I would hope that anyone who studies history does not ignore those things we are ashamed of. This is how the past is repeated. We must learn from it and become better persons, as did Alma.

Brilliant. What say we inspire hundreds of millions of non-radical Muslims to join their ranks? We could do this by invading a country that is dominantly peopled by Muslims and kill hundreds of thousands of civilians. We can throw a trillion dollars in the sand to blow humans into pieces, allow the CIA to send in drones to wipe out any group that are suspect, and then we can cite the Book of Mormon as support for the whole endeavor. What do you think?

Bad idea paperface. Why would you want to do such an evil thing? :-o

The link you posted doesn't protect anyone. It, in fact, feeds the beast because it presents Islam as a culture of jihad only. It serves the interests of the Adversary because it presents absolutely no one as the sacred children of God. THAT is the truth that speaks knowledge to power.

If you ignore evil you allow it to spread. So let’s not bring up the millions of Jews, Christians, Buddhists, Hindus, etc. killed in Jihads. Forget about all the women raped in regions where sharia law is practiced, are punished for coming forward then are accused as adulterers and receive a beating or stoning. Who cares about women being treated as possessions. Ignore the girls killed by family members because they insulted their family’s honor. Who cares if you apostatize from Islam you could get a death sentence.

It is not up to us to change the Muslim customs, religion, or sharia laws. That should be the responsibility of all the good Muslims of the world. It is they who should take back their religion from the violent radicals.

Why are you concerned with pointing out their sins and calling for their repentance? If you forgive them, preach pure doctrine. Preach the scriptures, and specifically the words of Christ. Your Islam-watch link does nothing of the sort.

OK paperface I’ll try and forgive the radical Muslims who stoned a woman to death because she was raped and had the temerity to come forward even though she did not have the 4 male witnesses required by sharia law. 8-|

Your grudge is revealed right here. Are you upset about political correctness? Do you want things to be "fair"? Too bad. You were born into the wrong world.
I would suggest that you cease your intake of media of any sort. "Balancing" out the agendas of various news forums isn't going to help you arrive at the truth.

This you have done is made abundantly clear by your ignorance paperface. Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it. This country IS repeating history because it is not taught in our LDG run schools and colleges.

The truth is in the words of Christ. Period.
Do you want to be informed, Dalton? Inquire of the Lord. Just like Joseph Smith. Don't waste your time with the media outlets you suggested. They are calculated to massage an ideology, not remit the "truth".

Truth is found in many places paperface. It is like gold nuggets. You have to do some digging to find it. Be careful of fools gold, it is found is more easier places and won’t buy you much.

The truth has no agenda, brother. Cancer and car accidents are the mortal truth for far more Americans than have been killed by terrorists. Since you like Thanksgiving, hopefully you answered the gift that the Lord gave you (your body temple) by eating sensibly and modestly. Because if the body is a temple, then you have a serious stewardship to it. All action is temple work, including what you say, eat and think. If you are "depressed" by the notions of opposition that I presented, then perhaps it's time to revisit Christ's words. I suggest you begin with Ether 12.

No, I pigged out big time paperface. I am still repenting. :ymsick: :((

A lot of American Mormons love the Title of Liberty because they are religious fanatics of national pride. But we aren't facing the crisis that he faced so the TOL is not really applicable. The Mormons of the original church were saturated in the words of the apocalypse and revelation, but now their progeny are dominantly saturated in American patriotism. But where are the modern Mormons that believe as the Anti-nephi-lehis? Where are the sons of Mosiah who want to serve their missions in enemy territory? They don't exist in the current church because they are an anathema to a culture that has given itself to war mongering... much like the Nephites of the latter part of the BOM.

I love the Title of Liberty because Moroni tells us those things worth dying for “In memory of our God, our religion, and freedom, and our peace, our wives, and our children”. I don’t see country nor president nor politicians on the list. The “fanatics of national pride” you mention paperface will be the ones who will save the Constituion while the America haters will sit back and watch this country fall with glee. Either that or help it out by joining with the Marxists at OWS events.

Moroni had to separate the wheat from the tares in his own country in the face of annihilation. You are not in his shoes or his circumstances. Focusing on the history of jihad doesn't "save" anyone, much less ennoble them. It is like presenting the entirety of Mormonism as the Utah War and the Mountain Meadows Massacre. Hence, it is closer to upholding a grudge than it is an expression of forgiveness.

Who were the kingmen paperface? They wanted to supplant their republican form of government with that of tyranny. Isn’t that the same thing going on today here with the OWS movement? Our kingmen of today are rising up while the MSM, Democrates, Unions, Marxists, Anarchists, Libertarians, and Socialists support this movement. The sad thing is I don’t see a present day Moroni to unite the freemen against them.

War doesn't make people Christ-like. It turns them into dogs.

Shame on you for calling Capitan Moroni a dog! Bad paperface! :D

It's really ALL of human history that is important to study. Not just a single violent thread meant to illicit a fanatic response and feed faith & tithes into a profane war that was authored by the Adversary, AKA the real enemy. The faster you realize the real war that we are in, the faster you will be able to actually do good among your fellow men. Politics only serve agendas and markets. Christ serves individuals by passing them through the veils of belonging. Learn the difference.
Hey we agree on something, paperface. ALL history should be taken into context. WHY? So we don’t repeat the same mistakes over and over again. Unfortunately we as a human race seem to forget this principle from one generation to the next. Look at the 1930s and 40s and you’ll see what I mean.



OMD

Zkulptor
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Re: Muhammed, the Muslim prophet

Post by Zkulptor »

paper face wrote:linj2fly, thank-you for the helpful info.

To me the desire to consider all Muslims suspect is not a function of the light of Christ. It is an apparatus of the natural man who functions via fear, blame, and Descartes' doctrine of doubt. It is part of the veil of the adversary.

If he can keep us at odds with each other, he can perpetuate his lies about this family that we are in. The truth is that sons and daughters of Eve are sacred. The Lord placed enmity into all who are her seed, and that enmity is towards the adversary and his veils of evil. But if he can contort that enmity into a hatred of your brothers and sisters, then it becomes easy for him to play us like fiddles. It becomes easy for him to raise profane tithes to buy up armies, navies, and false priests who oppress and destroy. It becomes easy for him to reign with blood and horror.

Do we perpetuate his plan by continuing to demonize a culture that represents a billion people? Or is it better to simply follow Christ's commandment to publish peace? I would rather die like the Anti-Nephi-Lehis and convert a broken hearted enemy than take up the sword against him. Our families and our country aren't "safe" at all if Christ is abandoned.
How amazing would it be if we all shared your opinion, which in my view is truly how the Lord must see us all...ho hard must it be fro sme of us LDS to even fathom the tought of being like the people of Ammon... my neighbors are Musilms, they are the kindest people I've ever met, my best neighbors... and I hve some LDS ones that won't even talk to me because I kinda look armenian or something....
These people are very learned, and we have talked about how the media has made them all to look like animals, when in fact it is not everyone that thinks this way.... their focus is their families, I can see this every weekend...
True they have a different "religious agenda" versus what we LDS believe, but still they are the children of God.
I am ashamed to know some LDS seem to repudiate these people, yes, we've had investigators that have been Muslims, I remember just 2 weeks ago I was going to shake this lady's hand, but she was not allowed to.... still I love them... I just do not agree with extreme ideas be it Muslim, or LDS ( not that I have ever heard anything hateful coming out of the mouth of a prophet)....or whatever... anything that promotes hate against any human being comes from Satan and should be shunned...

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Re: Muhammed, the Muslim prophet

Post by Zkulptor »

paper face wrote:
Oldemandalton wrote:The problem is that the Radicals Islamists are louder, more violent and are using the historical definition of Jihad. The Jihadists are growing in number and so is the hate they inspire. Study the history of Jihad in the past. It is being repeated.
And then do what? "Prepare"? "Judge"? Aren't you really just inviting us into a grudge being held against a group of people? That website you posted is all about perpetuating a grudge. If religious fanaticism, as the site indicates, is the most dangerous form of fanaticism, then all Christians, LDS included, are just as suspect as any eastern religion. In fact, Mormons have a scripture that says it's ok to kill if the Lord commands. What if outsiders were to judge us based on 1 Nephi?

The Jihadists are growing. So what? What can I do to protect myself against their growing numbers? Their numbers were boosted by the war in Iraq, not by their "loud extremists". Shall I hate them back? Support awareness campaigns? What a waste of time.

The Lord says to "stand in holy places". I don't see where studying the history of one culture's legacy of vendetta is very useful in that endeavor. Once you embrace Christ, you forgive murderers. You forgive the guys that perpetrated 9/11. Jesus said "vengeance is mine" 6 times in scripture, and you want me to read up over at islam-watch?

No thanks. Most of us that will be killed by others in the coming trials will be killed by Americans, not by foreign hands. And before that, cancer, car accidents and garbage disposals will get you before a terrorist will.

If you believe Christ's words to be the truth, then you understand the fact that those who want to kill you can't actually harm you in any sense that matters. They can only harm you physically. If that matters to you, then you either don't believe Christ or you don't want to obey him. You want the grudge instead of the Atonement.

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. - Matt 10:28

And why fear the adversary? Because he's always tying puppet strings to your wrists and ankles. Far more important than what's going on in the world is what is going on inside you.

The Book of Mormon indicates that the Lord allows the wicked to be a scourge unto those who inhabit promised lands only when they themselves have fallen into wickedness.

You're righteous, aren't you Dalton? If so, then why publish war? Why live by the sword at all?
Paper Face you've truly taught me a lesson, thank you!

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Re: Muhammed, the Muslim prophet

Post by linj2fly »

My visiting teachers were here and we were talking about Charity. Somehow the discussion veered off to plural marriage and the way non-members judge us based on polygamy. I couldn't help thinking about the similarity of others judging us through the lens of polygamy, and non-muslims judging muslims through the lens of jihad. Both tenets are widely misunderstood by outsiders (and some insiders, too). Because of this, so much is missed or dismissed about each religion. Further, there is nothing that irritates me more and baffles me at the same time as a non-Mormon adamantly telling me what I believe. To tell someone what they believe is one of the most preposterous and arrogant things a person could do, IMO. What's worse is when they quote from my scriptures to tell me what I believe, often cherry picking those things to bolster their position. It is sometimes laughable b/c it's so apparent they have no context or understanding about what they are quoting. What do we tell people when they don't understand? Read the Book of Mormon.

As a result of experiences like this, I'm more than willing to give Muslims the benefit of the doubt when I hear people (usually non-Muslims, and sometimes ex-Muslims) quoting select verses from the Qu'ran to prove that they are a violent religion. I wonder how many of Islam's critics have actually read the Qu'ran completely. It's online, you know. Just like our scriptures.

It is true that, politically, they have violent past (and present, among extremists). News Flash: WE ALL DO. Western history (past and current) is replete with violent coercion. "God Wills it" makes it even worse. So the Muslims had what Westerners call 'holy wars'. So did we. In fact, I can't think of anything holier than holy-war killing among the children of Abraham. Weren't the crusades great? The children of Joseph fighting the children of Ishmael over the the land of the children of Judah? Can't get any better than that---for Satan. :ymdevil:

The end result for Heavenly Father is to GATHER his children back home to Him. He promotes GATHERING by teaching us and commanding us to have CHARITY. Satan's plan is obviously completely the opposite. His goal is to DIVIDE us. He does this with many tools, such as ENMITY, PRIDE, CONTENTIONS, and finally consummating in WAR, one of the most efficient ways to end the mortal probation, the time to prepare to meet God, for the greatest amount of people in a relatively short about of time.

If the whole point is to bring all of God's children to the light of His Gospel, and eventually home to him, how do we go about getting along with other peoples, who are, in the end, are our literal brothers and sisters? How about an approach of charity? With charity, we would not view Muslims through the lens of a jihad political past and extremist jihad today, but we would see that there really is so much more to their history and religion. I, personally, feel a connection with them, since we are both, in fact, praying to the God of Abraham. I like the idea of the 'higher jihad' which is the 'struggle against the evil inclinations of the soul.' I like the translation of Islam, which means to 'surrender to God.' That's a struggle for me everyday, so I really identify with these ideas. This is a commonality that we all have. I like their focus on family, and I practice some of their other pillars: faith, prayer, fasting, and almsgiving. Sure there are plenty of differences between them and myself, but I don't think focusing on them lends to the idea of GATHERING.

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