HOW FAITH OPERATES

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freedomforall
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HOW FAITH OPERATES

Post by freedomforall »

HOW FAITH OPERATES

At first glance we can read these verses as well as many more and assume that all we have to do is ask God for...whatever. A lot of scriptures say "ask and ye shall receive", and we may not think anything more of it.

Yet, there are scriptures that reveal a secondary directive when we look closely. I've listed most of these secondary directives here. And I've highlighted what I think is the highest requirement in order for prayer to be most effective:

D&C 88:63-68
63 Draw near unto me and I will draw near unto you; seek me diligently and ye shall find me; ask, and ye shall receive; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.
64 Whatsoever ye ask the Father in my name it shall be given unto you, that is expedient for you;
65 And if ye ask anything that is not expedient for you, it shall turn unto your condemnation.
66 Behold, that which you hear is as the voice of one crying in the wilderness—in the wilderness, because you cannot see him—my voice, because my voice is Spirit; my Spirit is truth; truth abideth and hath no end; and if it be in you it shall abound.
67 And if your eye be single to my glory, your whole bodies shall be filled with light, and there shall be no darkness in you; and that body which is filled with light comprehendeth all things.
68 Therefore, sanctify yourselves that your minds become single to God, and the days will come that you shall see him; for he will unveil his face unto you, and it shall be in his own time, and in his own way, and according to his own will.

Romans 8:26,27
26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

James 4:3
3 Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.

D&C 46:28,30
28 And it shall come to pass that he that asketh in Spirit shall receive in Spirit;
30 He that asketh in the Spirit asketh according to the will of God; wherefore it is done even as he asketh.

Third Nephi 18:20
20 And whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, which is right, believing that ye shall receive, behold it shall be given unto you.

Mathew 21:21,22
21 Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done.
22 And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.

Mark 11:24
24 Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.
Mormon 9: 21
21 Behold, I say unto you that whoso believeth in Christ, doubting nothing, whatsoever he shall ask the Father in the name of Christ it shall be granted him; and this promise is unto all, even unto the ends of the earth.

Moroni 7:26
26...And as surely as Christ liveth he spake these words unto our fathers, saying: Whatsoever thing ye shall ask the Father in my name, which is good, in faith believing that ye shall receive, behold, it shall be done unto you.


So we see here that not everything we could ask for will not be granted as some scriptures suggest.

What we ask for...must be right...not ask amiss...must be expedient for us...we should pray with an eye single to God's Glory...we should ask in Spirit in order to receive in Spirit...and we must not doubt.

The following verse tells us:

Hebrews 11:6
6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Comments?

firend
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Posts: 1296

Re: HOW FAITH OPERATES

Post by firend »

freedomfighter wrote:HOW FAITH OPERATES

At first glance we can read these verses as well as many more and assume that all we have to do is ask God for...whatever. A lot of scriptures say "ask and ye shall receive", and we may not think anything more of it.

Yet, there are scriptures that reveal a secondary directive when we look closely. I've listed most of these secondary directives here. And I've highlighted what I think is the highest requirement in order for prayer to be most effective:

D&C 88:63-68
63 Draw near unto me and I will draw near unto you; seek me diligently and ye shall find me; ask, and ye shall receive; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.
64 Whatsoever ye ask the Father in my name it shall be given unto you, that is expedient for you;
65 And if ye ask anything that is not expedient for you, it shall turn unto your condemnation.
66 Behold, that which you hear is as the voice of one crying in the wilderness—in the wilderness, because you cannot see him—my voice, because my voice is Spirit; my Spirit is truth; truth abideth and hath no end; and if it be in you it shall abound.
67 And if your eye be single to my glory, your whole bodies shall be filled with light, and there shall be no darkness in you; and that body which is filled with light comprehendeth all things.
68 Therefore, sanctify yourselves that your minds become single to God, and the days will come that you shall see him; for he will unveil his face unto you, and it shall be in his own time, and in his own way, and according to his own will.

Romans 8:26,27
26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

James 4:3
3 Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.

D&C 46:28,30
28 And it shall come to pass that he that asketh in Spirit shall receive in Spirit;
30 He that asketh in the Spirit asketh according to the will of God; wherefore it is done even as he asketh.

Third Nephi 18:20
20 And whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, which is right, believing that ye shall receive, behold it shall be given unto you.

Mathew 21:21,22
21 Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done.
22 And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.

Mark 11:24
24 Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.
Mormon 9: 21
21 Behold, I say unto you that whoso believeth in Christ, doubting nothing, whatsoever he shall ask the Father in the name of Christ it shall be granted him; and this promise is unto all, even unto the ends of the earth.

Moroni 7:26
26...And as surely as Christ liveth he spake these words unto our fathers, saying: Whatsoever thing ye shall ask the Father in my name, which is good, in faith believing that ye shall receive, behold, it shall be done unto you.


So we see here that not everything we could ask for will not be granted as some scriptures suggest.

What we ask for...must be right...not ask amiss...must be expedient for us...we should pray with an eye single to God's Glory...we should ask in Spirit in order to receive in Spirit...and we must not doubt.

The following verse tells us:

Hebrews 11:6
6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Comments?
nice, thanks for the post. Great quotes.

firend
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Posts: 1296

Re: HOW FAITH OPERATES

Post by firend »

I want to add that for awhile this subject has really been on my mind and soul. The answer I kept getting from the Lord is simple. Be unselfish.

If we can throw off our selfishness and natural man wantingly for God and others, including in your prayers, then all those quotes come full circle :)

I think we all at times get caught up in me me me, and praying for things we want, the problem is where is what God wants? What about your brethren?

So when I pray now it is never about me because I am so concerned with what God and others want, if I need something it will be given. If I desire something it is not for me selfishly if that makes sense.

For example, two men are dying. Both cry to God save me. The first guy wants to live and get on with his career. He had big plans for life and home, and that new lexus. The second guy begs God to save him so he can be of service to God and his fellow man. So in proper context we can see guy #1 is selfish, and guy #2 is unselfish even though on the surface they are both praying for themselves to get healed.

freedomforall
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Re: HOW FAITH OPERATES

Post by freedomforall »

firend wrote:I want to add that for awhile this subject has really been on my mind and soul. The answer I kept getting from the Lord is simple. Be unselfish.

If we can throw off our selfishness and natural man wantingly for God and others, including in your prayers, then all those quotes come full circle :)

I think we all at times get caught up in me me me, and praying for things we want, the problem is where is what God wants? What about your brethren?

So when I pray now it is never about me because I am so concerned with what God and others want, if I need something it will be given. If I desire something it is not for me selfishly if that makes sense.

For example, two men are dying. Both cry to God save me. The first guy wants to live and get on with his career. He had big plans for life and home, and that new lexus. The second guy begs God to save him so he can be of service to God and his fellow man. So in proper context we can see guy #1 is selfish, and guy #2 is unselfish even though on the surface they are both praying for themselves to get healed.
I like this, thanks.

Squally
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Posts: 1296

Re: HOW FAITH OPERATES

Post by Squally »

Yes, I have found that when I ask and praying for anything (except what the Lord desires for me) the answer is always no. lol.

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marc
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Re: HOW FAITH OPERATES

Post by marc »

Alma 32:

26 Now, as I said concerning faith—that it was not a perfect knowledge—even so it is with my words. Ye cannot know of their surety at first, unto perfection, any more than faith is a perfect knowledge.

27 But behold, if ye will awake and arouse your faculties, even to an experiment upon my words, and exercise a particle of faith, yea, even if ye can no more than desire to believe, let this desire work in you, even until ye believe in a manner that ye can give place for a portion of my words.

28 Now, we will compare the word unto a seed. Now, if ye give place, that a seed may be planted in your heart, behold, if it be a true seed, or a good seed, if ye do not cast it out by your unbelief, that ye will resist the Spirit of the Lord, behold, it will begin to swell within your breasts; and when you feel these swelling motions, ye will begin to say within yourselves—It must needs be that this is a good seed, or that the word is good, for it beginneth to enlarge my soul; yea, it beginneth to enlighten my understanding, yea, it beginneth to be delicious to me.

29 Now behold, would not this increase your faith? I say unto you, Yea; nevertheless it hath not grown up to a perfect knowledge.

30 But behold, as the seed swelleth, and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow, then you must needs say that the seed is good; for behold it swelleth, and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow. And now, behold, will not this strengthen your faith? Yea, it will strengthen your faith: for ye will say I know that this is a good seed; for behold it sprouteth and beginneth to grow.

31 And now, behold, are ye sure that this is a good seed? I say unto you, Yea; for every seed bringeth forth unto its own likeness.

32 Therefore, if a seed groweth it is good, but if it groweth not, behold it is not good, therefore it is cast away.

33 And now, behold, because ye have tried the experiment, and planted the seed, and it swelleth and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow, ye must needs know that the seed is good.

34 And now, behold, is your knowledge perfect? Yea, your knowledge is perfect in that thing, and your faith is dormant; and this because you know, for ye know that the word hath swelled your souls, and ye also know that it hath sprouted up, that your understanding doth begin to be enlightened, and your mind doth begin to expand.

35 O then, is not this real? I say unto you, Yea, because it is light; and whatsoever is light, is good, because it is discernible, therefore ye must know that it is good; and now behold, after ye have tasted this light is your knowledge perfect?

36 Behold I say unto you, Nay; neither must ye lay aside your faith, for ye have only exercised your faith to plant the seed that ye might try the experiment to know if the seed was good.

37 And behold, as the tree beginneth to grow, ye will say: Let us nourish it with great care, that it may get root, that it may grow up, and bring forth fruit unto us. And now behold, if ye nourish it with much care it will get root, and grow up, and bring forth fruit.

38 But if ye neglect the tree, and take no thought for its nourishment, behold it will not get any root; and when the heat of the sun cometh and scorcheth it, because it hath no root it withers away, and ye pluck it up and cast it out.

39 Now, this is not because the seed was not good, neither is it because the fruit thereof would not be desirable; but it is because your ground is barren, and ye will not nourish the tree, therefore ye cannot have the fruit thereof.

40 And thus, if ye will not nourish the word, looking forward with an eye of faith to the fruit thereof, ye can never pluck of the fruit of the tree of life.

41 But if ye will nourish the word, yea, nourish the tree as it beginneth to grow, by your faith with great diligence, and with patience, looking forward to the fruit thereof, it shall take root; and behold it shall be a tree springing up unto everlasting life.

42 And because of your diligence and your faith and your patience with the word in nourishing it, that it may take root in you, behold, by and by ye shall pluck the fruit thereof, which is most precious, which is sweet above all that is sweet, and which is white above all that is white, yea, and pure above all that is pure; and ye shall feast upon this fruit even until ye are filled, that ye hunger not, neither shall ye thirst.

43 Then, my brethren, ye shall reap the rewards of your faith, and your diligence, and patience, and long-suffering, waiting for the tree to bring forth fruit unto you.

freedomforall
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Re: HOW FAITH OPERATES

Post by freedomforall »

coachmarc wrote:Alma 32:

26 Now, as I said concerning faith—that it was not a perfect knowledge—even so it is with my words. Ye cannot know of their surety at first, unto perfection, any more than faith is a perfect knowledge.

27 But behold, if ye will awake and arouse your faculties, even to an experiment upon my words, and exercise a particle of faith, yea, even if ye can no more than desire to believe, let this desire work in you, even until ye believe in a manner that ye can give place for a portion of my words.

28 Now, we will compare the word unto a seed. Now, if ye give place, that a seed may be planted in your heart, behold, if it be a true seed, or a good seed, if ye do not cast it out by your unbelief, that ye will resist the Spirit of the Lord, behold, it will begin to swell within your breasts; and when you feel these swelling motions, ye will begin to say within yourselves—It must needs be that this is a good seed, or that the word is good, for it beginneth to enlarge my soul; yea, it beginneth to enlighten my understanding, yea, it beginneth to be delicious to me.

29 Now behold, would not this increase your faith? I say unto you, Yea; nevertheless it hath not grown up to a perfect knowledge.

30 But behold, as the seed swelleth, and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow, then you must needs say that the seed is good; for behold it swelleth, and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow. And now, behold, will not this strengthen your faith? Yea, it will strengthen your faith: for ye will say I know that this is a good seed; for behold it sprouteth and beginneth to grow.

31 And now, behold, are ye sure that this is a good seed? I say unto you, Yea; for every seed bringeth forth unto its own likeness.

32 Therefore, if a seed groweth it is good, but if it groweth not, behold it is not good, therefore it is cast away.

33 And now, behold, because ye have tried the experiment, and planted the seed, and it swelleth and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow, ye must needs know that the seed is good.

34 And now, behold, is your knowledge perfect? Yea, your knowledge is perfect in that thing, and your faith is dormant; and this because you know, for ye know that the word hath swelled your souls, and ye also know that it hath sprouted up, that your understanding doth begin to be enlightened, and your mind doth begin to expand.

35 O then, is not this real? I say unto you, Yea, because it is light; and whatsoever is light, is good, because it is discernible, therefore ye must know that it is good; and now behold, after ye have tasted this light is your knowledge perfect?

36 Behold I say unto you, Nay; neither must ye lay aside your faith, for ye have only exercised your faith to plant the seed that ye might try the experiment to know if the seed was good.

37 And behold, as the tree beginneth to grow, ye will say: Let us nourish it with great care, that it may get root, that it may grow up, and bring forth fruit unto us. And now behold, if ye nourish it with much care it will get root, and grow up, and bring forth fruit.

38 But if ye neglect the tree, and take no thought for its nourishment, behold it will not get any root; and when the heat of the sun cometh and scorcheth it, because it hath no root it withers away, and ye pluck it up and cast it out.

39 Now, this is not because the seed was not good, neither is it because the fruit thereof would not be desirable; but it is because your ground is barren, and ye will not nourish the tree, therefore ye cannot have the fruit thereof.

40 And thus, if ye will not nourish the word, looking forward with an eye of faith to the fruit thereof, ye can never pluck of the fruit of the tree of life.

41 But if ye will nourish the word, yea, nourish the tree as it beginneth to grow, by your faith with great diligence, and with patience, looking forward to the fruit thereof, it shall take root; and behold it shall be a tree springing up unto everlasting life.

42 And because of your diligence and your faith and your patience with the word in nourishing it, that it may take root in you, behold, by and by ye shall pluck the fruit thereof, which is most precious, which is sweet above all that is sweet, and which is white above all that is white, yea, and pure above all that is pure; and ye shall feast upon this fruit even until ye are filled, that ye hunger not, neither shall ye thirst.

43 Then, my brethren, ye shall reap the rewards of your faith, and your diligence, and patience, and long-suffering, waiting for the tree to bring forth fruit unto you.
Though this is a very good scripture, the focus is on how to plant the seed (the word of God) and to have it grow. Faith is only mentioned so as to allow the seed to be recognized as God's word; that it is good and expands the soul. The scripture does not expound on the operations of faith.

http://mormontheologyseminar.org/Summar ... a%2032.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If I have misinterpreted your intent of the post, I apologize. Perhaps you could expound your intent.

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marc
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Re: HOW FAITH OPERATES

Post by marc »

No apology necessary. The topic is "How faith operates". The subject seems a bit vague and what shared is how I see faith operating. It must begin somewhere. I did read your scriptures and I do believe that what Alma taught the Zoramites applies to those scriptures that you posted. If anyone is to have faith in God's power, whether to answer a prayer or to be healed, they must first understand how faith itself grows and functions. And once that faith becomes a perfect knowledge, as Nephi did who prayed on his tower in his garden, with his newly given sealing power, then we'll know what is expedient in the Lord. Even when the Lord granted Nephi the sealing power, Nephi still did not do anything without first pleading with the Lord. Sending a famine was the perfect example. Rather than sending the famine of his own will, he sought God's will instead. Once we have a perfect knowledge, our own will becomes aligned with God's will. Hence, God granted unto Nephi the famine. Just my thoughts.

freedomforall
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Re: HOW FAITH OPERATES

Post by freedomforall »

coachmarc wrote:No apology necessary. The topic is "How faith operates". The subject seems a bit vague and what shared is how I see faith operating. It must begin somewhere. I did read your scriptures and I do believe that what Alma taught the Zoramites applies to those scriptures that you posted. If anyone is to have faith in God's power, whether to answer a prayer or to be healed, they must first understand how faith itself grows and functions. And once that faith becomes a perfect knowledge, as Nephi did who prayed on his tower in his garden, with his newly given sealing power, then we'll know what is expedient in the Lord. Even when the Lord granted Nephi the sealing power, Nephi still did not do anything without first pleading with the Lord. Sending a famine was the perfect example. Rather than sending the famine of his own will, he sought God's will instead. Once we have a perfect knowledge, our own will becomes aligned with God's will. Hence, God granted unto Nephi the famine. Just my thoughts.
Although not canonized scripture, the "Lectures on Faith" are highly recommended reading for knowing and understanding faith. We learn that even God operates by faith.

http://www.mormonbeliefs.com/lectures_on_faith.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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marc
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Re: HOW FAITH OPERATES

Post by marc »

Thank you for sharing that link. I look forward to reading them. I think I read them years and years ago. A review is definitely in order.

DrJay
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Re: HOW FAITH OPERATES

Post by DrJay »

freedomfighter wrote: Although not canonized scripture, the "Lectures on Faith" are highly recommended reading for knowing and understanding faith. We learn that even God operates by faith.

http://www.mormonbeliefs.com/lectures_on_faith.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Actually at one time they were part of the D&C. They were the "doctrine" part of the "Doctrine & Covenants". It seems they were later rejected by the brethern. I believe this is one of the plain and precious things that has been "lost" as part of the gospel.

firend
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Re: HOW FAITH OPERATES

Post by firend »

DrJay wrote:
freedomfighter wrote: Although not canonized scripture, the "Lectures on Faith" are highly recommended reading for knowing and understanding faith. We learn that even God operates by faith.

http://www.mormonbeliefs.com/lectures_on_faith.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Actually at one time they were part of the D&C. They were the "doctrine" part of the "Doctrine & Covenants". It seems they were later rejected by the brethern. I believe this is one of the plain and precious things that has been "lost" as part of the gospel.

yes.

I love the lectures of faith. The information in there is awesome.

reese
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Re: HOW FAITH OPERATES

Post by reese »

Is faith something we can create within ourselves, or is it given to us as a gift from God?

Rom.12:3 says:
3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to athink of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think bsoberly, according as cGod hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
If faith is a gift from God, then it would make sense that it is received like all other things from God, specifically by obedience to the conditions outlined before the foundation of the world--"there is a irrevocably decreed in heaven..."

So simply put, if we want a blessing we must find the law upon which the blessing is predicated, and then follow that law.

This is where the lectures on faith come in, much of the lectures on faith are talking about the relationship between sacrifice and receiving faith. Joseph seems to be saying that sacrifice is the law upon which faith is predicated.

dauser
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Re: HOW FAITH OPERATES

Post by dauser »

Faith receives. Faith operates by receiving from the giver.

Faith's results is determined by thanks, asks and works (or words) , which is determined by thoughts, which is determined by perception, which is determined by projection, which is determined by identy.

Take The Name of Jesus Christ (and all that goes with it)...and do not take The Name in vain, at least for awhile...and see how that affects your receiving.

jdtech
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Re: HOW FAITH OPERATES

Post by jdtech »

freedomfighter wrote:
coachmarc wrote:No apology necessary. The topic is "How faith operates". The subject seems a bit vague and what shared is how I see faith operating. It must begin somewhere. I did read your scriptures and I do believe that what Alma taught the Zoramites applies to those scriptures that you posted. If anyone is to have faith in God's power, whether to answer a prayer or to be healed, they must first understand how faith itself grows and functions. And once that faith becomes a perfect knowledge, as Nephi did who prayed on his tower in his garden, with his newly given sealing power, then we'll know what is expedient in the Lord. Even when the Lord granted Nephi the sealing power, Nephi still did not do anything without first pleading with the Lord. Sending a famine was the perfect example. Rather than sending the famine of his own will, he sought God's will instead. Once we have a perfect knowledge, our own will becomes aligned with God's will. Hence, God granted unto Nephi the famine. Just my thoughts.
Although not canonized scripture, the "Lectures on Faith" are highly recommended reading for knowing and understanding faith. We learn that even God operates by faith.

http://www.mormonbeliefs.com/lectures_on_faith.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Yes - Thank you for sharing. I was able to copy the text in full, and created a PDF...if anyone is interested you can find it on my public dropbox:

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/8282012/LecturesOnFaith.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

chase
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Re: HOW FAITH OPERATES

Post by chase »

The Lectures on Faith were, at one point, canonized. I believe that they were meant to be the "doctrine" of the Doctrine and Covenants when first compiled.

That being said, I believe there is a difference between what we call faith and what Joseph calls faith unto salvation. Faith as we define it seems to be gained by the process described in Alma 32. Faith unto salvation seems to me to be that which is accompanied by power. That kind of faith is gained at the end of a long journey of Alma 32 type faith. I think faith unto salvation has to do with receiving promises and knowledge directly from the Lord, by which a man can have perfect faith that he will be saved. This comes through revelation. Without this kind of faith, man has no anchor (Ether 12:4). An anchor of faith, as Moroni uses the term, is not forged by a vague sense of faith, but by one that has sacrificed everything as Joseph identifies as requisite in Lecture 6.

Perhaps this helps? I think sometimes we expect too much of what little we have. We won't get extraordinary results without extraordinary effort. If we want greater results, we must pay a greater price. We must lay everything on the altar. That is indeed a lifelong challenge.

freedomforall
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Re: HOW FAITH OPERATES

Post by freedomforall »

chasetafer0707 wrote:The Lectures on Faith were, at one point, canonized. I believe that they were meant to be the "doctrine" of the Doctrine and Covenants when first compiled.

That being said, I believe there is a difference between what we call faith and what Joseph calls faith unto salvation. Faith as we define it seems to be gained by the process described in Alma 32. Faith unto salvation seems to me to be that which is accompanied by power. That kind of faith is gained at the end of a long journey of Alma 32 type faith. I think faith unto salvation has to do with receiving promises and knowledge directly from the Lord, by which a man can have perfect faith that he will be saved. This comes through revelation. Without this kind of faith, man has no anchor (Ether 12:4). An anchor of faith, as Moroni uses the term, is not forged by a vague sense of faith, but by one that has sacrificed everything as Joseph identifies as requisite in Lecture 6.

Perhaps this helps? I think sometimes we expect too much of what little we have. We won't get extraordinary results without extraordinary effort. If we want greater results, we must pay a greater price. We must lay everything on the altar. That is indeed a lifelong challenge.

Actually, it is "hope" that becomes our anchor. The kind of hope that carries us through each day as we sin and repent, sin and repent, etc. The kind of hope that is deep within us, desiring God to allow us into His kingdom despite our sometimes meager attempts at repentance, despite our daily problems and wrong attitudes. We cannot have hope without faithThe following scripture gives strength:

Ether 12:4
Wherefore, whoso believeth in God might with surety hope for a better world, yea, even a place at the right hand of God, which hope cometh of faith, maketh an anchor to the souls of men, which would make them sure and steadfast, always abounding in good works, being led to glorify God.

Heb. 6:19
Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;

Ether 12:32
And I also remember that thou hast said that thou hast prepared a house for man, yea, even among the mansions of thy Father, in which man might have a more excellent hope; wherefore man must hope, or he cannot receive an inheritance in the place which thou hast prepared.

Heb. 11:1
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Moroni 7:40-43
And again, my beloved brethren, I would speak unto you concerning hope. How is it that ye can attain unto faith, save ye shall have hope?
And what is it that ye shall hope for? Behold I say unto you that ye shall have hope through the atonement of Christ and the power of his resurrection, to be raised unto life eternal, and this because of your faith in him according to the promise.

Wherefore, if a man have faith he must needs have hope; for without faith there cannot be any hope.
And again, behold I say unto you that he cannot have faith and hope, save he shall be meek, and lowly of heart.

freedomforall
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Re: HOW FAITH OPERATES

Post by freedomforall »

reese wrote:Is faith something we can create within ourselves, or is it given to us as a gift from God?

Rom.12:3 says:
3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to athink of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think bsoberly, according as cGod hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
If faith is a gift from God, then it would make sense that it is received like all other things from God, specifically by obedience to the conditions outlined before the foundation of the world--"there is a irrevocably decreed in heaven..."

So simply put, if we want a blessing we must find the law upon which the blessing is predicated, and then follow that law.

This is where the lectures on faith come in, much of the lectures on faith are talking about the relationship between sacrifice and receiving faith. Joseph seems to be saying that sacrifice is the law upon which faith is predicated.
As Alma 32 describes, faith comes from planting the Word of God in our hearts. The "word" is the seed. As we continue feasting on the word, the seed grows and our belief, our faith and hope increase. It is in the scripture we learn of God's attributes, His way of doing things and enough information as to provide us a glimpse into the eternities where our "hope" can and does become our anchor so we can stay steadfast and immovable until we reach our desired end...being with God.

The kind of faith I wonder about is being able to move inanimate objects with our mind. Jesus told Peter and others while on the boat...after Jesus calmed the winds...that if they had had enough faith they could have done it. He said that if we had the faith of a mustered seed we could say unto a yonder mountain move and it would be done.
Does this suggest there is another kind of faith? Do we negate using this kind of faith because of our own doubt and fear? Do we think that God would chastise us in doing so? Are we content to withdraw from this kind of faith?

chase
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Posts: 266

Re: HOW FAITH OPERATES

Post by chase »

freedomfighter wrote:
reese wrote:Is faith something we can create within ourselves, or is it given to us as a gift from God?

Rom.12:3 says:
3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to athink of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think bsoberly, according as cGod hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
If faith is a gift from God, then it would make sense that it is received like all other things from God, specifically by obedience to the conditions outlined before the foundation of the world--"there is a irrevocably decreed in heaven..."

So simply put, if we want a blessing we must find the law upon which the blessing is predicated, and then follow that law.

This is where the lectures on faith come in, much of the lectures on faith are talking about the relationship between sacrifice and receiving faith. Joseph seems to be saying that sacrifice is the law upon which faith is predicated.
As Alma 32 describes, faith comes from planting the Word of God in our hearts. The "word" is the seed. As we continue feasting on the word, the seed grows and our belief, our faith and hope increase. It is in the scripture we learn of God's attributes, His way of doing things and enough information as to provide us a glimpse into the eternities where our "hope" can and does become our anchor so we can stay steadfast and immovable until we reach our desired end...being with God.

The kind of faith I wonder about is being able to move inanimate objects with our mind. Jesus told Peter and others while on the boat...after Jesus calmed the winds...that if they had had enough faith they could have done it. He said that if we had the faith of a mustered seed we could say unto a yonder mountain move and it would be done.
Does this suggest there is another kind of faith? Do we negate using this kind of faith because of our own doubt and fear? Do we think that God would chastise us in doing so? Are we content to withdraw from this kind of faith?
I had always thought that the wording of Ether 12:4 indicated that faith was the anchor, but Hebrews does provide further insight. Thanks for your thoughts. I thought I would add this quote by Joseph which also identifies the anchor as very concrete thing and not just a vague hope or faith. He tells us how to obtain it by adding to faith all the virtues listed by Peter (2 Peter 1) including, I'm sure, hope. I think there IS another kind of faith, which Joseph identifies as "faith unto salvation." I think this quote identifies what that means. I think faith unto salvation is the kind of faith that controls matter and element. More importantly, however, I think it gives us authority to claim our salvation. It gives us confidence that we have overcome the world. I think Alma 32 talks about this kind of faith in terms similar to Joseph's words: "And now, behold, because ye have tried the experiment, and planted the seed, and it swelleth and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow, ye must needs know that the seed is good. And now, behold, is your knowledge perfect? Yea, your knowledge is perfect in that thing, and your faith is dormant; and this because you know" (Alma 32:33-34). Joseph also speaks of knowledge, obtained through faith (and adding to it as Peter directs), becoming an anchor. So I guess in my mind faith unto salvation = knowledge that one's election is sure, and I think that kind of experience brings with it certain rights and also ordinations that make it possible to command the elements and to pass the angels that stand as sentinels, as Brigham says. I don't think that this kind of faith is widespread, as most of us fallen humans are unwilling to sacrifice everything necessary. If we want the blessings of Abraham and the other fathers, we have to do what they did, as instructed by the Lord. That requires a hefty price. Anyways, hopefully this sheds some light on your question.

Now their is some grand secret ther & keys to unlock the subject Not withstanding the Apostle exhorts them to make their Calling Add to their faith virtue Knowledge temperance &C yet he exhorts them to make their Calling & election Shure & though they had herd the audible voice from heaven bearing testinoy that Jesus was the Son of God yet he says we have a more sure word of Prophecy where unto ye do well that ye take heed as unto a light shining in a dark place. Now wherein could they have a more sure word of prophecy than to hear the voice of God saying this is my Beloved Son &C Now for the Secret & grand Key though they might hear the voice of God & know that Jesus was the Son of God this would be no evidence that their election & Calling & election was made shure that they had part with Christ & was a Joint heir with him, they then would want that more sure word of Prophecy that they were sealed in the heavens & had the promise of eternal live in the Kingdom of God then having this promise sealed unto them it was as an anchor to the Soul Sure & Steadfast though the thunders might roll & lightnings flash & earthquakes Bellow & war gather thick around yet this hope & knowledge would support the soul in evry hour of trail [trial] trouble & tribulation Then Knowledge through our Lord & savior Jesus Christ is the grand Key that unlocks the glories & misteries of the Kingdom of heaven

reese
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Re: HOW FAITH OPERATES

Post by reese »

freedomfighter wrote:sa
The kind of faith I wonder about is being able to move inanimate objects with our mind. Jesus told Peter and others while on the boat...after Jesus calmed the winds...that if they had had enough faith they could have done it. He said that if we had the faith of a mustered seed we could say unto a yonder mountain move and it would be done.
Does this suggest there is another kind of faith? Do we negate using this kind of faith because of our own doubt and fear? Do we think that God would chastise us in doing so? Are we content to withdraw from this kind of faith?
I think this is the kind of faith that comes from God. The power to do this kind of thing is the power of God, the priesthood?...So anyone who does this kind of thing would be only doing God's will as communicated to that person, even if it is only through "the still small voice". I don't think it could be accomplished through a persons will. I think people who exhibit and use this kind of faith are people who hold the sealing power....the power to be God's voice. And yes I think we are quite content to withdraw from the requirements of having this kind of faith and power. It is availible to all, and yet very, very few people have it.


I agree chasetafer0707.

freedomforall
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Re: HOW FAITH OPERATES

Post by freedomforall »

Hypothetical question. When Jesus walked on water, had the water suddenly disappeared, would Jesus have fallen down into the mud? Or would He have remained walking in mid-air?

Another question. Written in Helaman 10:15,16 we read that Nephi was conveyed away by the Spirit so as to keep the wicked people around him from grabbing him and throwing him into prison. Did it appear that Nephi was flying, vertically of course?

15 And it came to pass that when Nephi had declared unto them the word, behold, they did still harden their hearts and would not hearken unto his words; therefore they did revile against him, and did seek to lay their hands upon him that they might cast him into prison.
16 But behold, the power of God was with him, and they could not take him to cast him into prison, for he was taken by the Spirit and conveyed away out of the midst of them.

The type of faith demonstrated in these passages is what we may be talking about. The ability to defy gravity.

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Original_Intent
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Re: HOW FAITH OPERATES

Post by Original_Intent »

How much faith does a mustard seed have? Why does the Book of Mormon say that man is LESS than the dust of the earth?

freedomforall
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Re: HOW FAITH OPERATES

Post by freedomforall »

Original_Intent wrote:How much faith does a mustard seed have? Why does the Book of Mormon say that man is LESS than the dust of the earth?


Answer #1
Enough to grow. A mustard seed is very small, yet grows into a large tree. By comparison, our faith must start small and grow into a large tree...it expands our soul.

Answer #2
Mosiah 4:2
2 And they had viewed themselves in their own carnal state, even less than the dust of the earth. And they all cried aloud with one voice, saying: O have mercy, and apply the atoning blood of Christ that we may receive forgiveness of our sins, and our hearts may be purified; for we believe in Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who created heaven and earth, and all things; who shall come down among the children of men.

Unlike the dust of the earth, we must repent knowing we can be carnal at times, needing continual spiritual nourishment. Viewing ourselves as less than the dust of the earth indicates that we are humble and yearn with our whole soul to be saved by our Savior. We cannot save ourselves because no matter how much righteousness we exhibit, we remain unprofitable servants.

Mosiah 2:21
21 I say unto you that if ye should serve him who has created you from the beginning, and is preserving you from day to day, by lending you breath, that ye may live and move and do according to your own will, and even supporting you from one moment to another—I say, if ye should serve him with all your whole souls yet ye would be unprofitable servants.

I have experienced feeling "less than the dust of the earth" at times. It is when our soul reaches out, yearning for forgiveness and mercy; yearning to be made pure and spotless.

Alma 13:12
12 Now they, after being sanctified by the Holy Ghost, having their garments made white, being pure and spotless before God, could not look upon sin save it were with abhorrence....

freedomforall
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Re: HOW FAITH OPERATES

Post by freedomforall »

Speaking of faith and its operations, what does it mean to enter into the "rest" of the Lord?
Can we do so in our lifetime?

reese
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Re: HOW FAITH OPERATES

Post by reese »

freedomfighter wrote:Speaking of faith and its operations, what does it mean to enter into the "rest" of the Lord?
Rest of the Lord, seems to be entering into his presence, having C&E made sure, joining the assembly of the firstborn, etc. Something that only those who are sanctified and made pure through the blood of the Lamb can enter into.
Alma13: 11 Therefore they were called after this holy order, and were asanctified, and their bgarments were washed white through the blood of the Lamb.

12 Now they, after being asanctified by the bHoly Ghost, having their garments made white, being cpure and spotless before God, could not look upon dsin save it were with eabhorrence; and there were many, exceedingly great many, who were made pure and entered into the rest of the Lord their God.

13 And now, my brethren, I would that ye should humble yourselves before God, and bring forth afruit meet for repentance, that ye may also enter into that rest.

Can we do so in our lifetime?
Alma seemed to think so.

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