How did Adam and Eve's children populate the earth?

[freedomforall]

In answer to the original question, the same way we do today.

[ithink]

I was having a discussion with a prospective member of the church today. He brought up a question that I did not really know how to answer. He was talking about Adam and Eve and the fact that all people on the earth came from them. He asked how the population grew beyond the first generation of Adam and Eve's children. Basically for further generations to come forth, Adam and Eve's children would have had to have had sexual relations with each other and reproduced with each other. He asked if this was the only way that the earth could have been populated. He was very uncomfortable with the notion of "incest" taking place. This is a subject that most of us have at one time or another thought about I'm sure. I'm just not really sure how to answer him. If anyone has a good answer on this it would be very helpful. :ymblushing:

Consider asking your friend how he would have done it if not the way conventional christianity says it was done. We should consider also, that if Adam had more than one wife, he would of a necessity have had to taken one of his daughters or grand daughters to wife.

[awake]

There are many lost books, of scripture, and other ancient records that allude to Adam having more than one wife/wives, the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Nag-maddi text, the Pseudepigrapha, The Jewish Talmud, the Kabbalah, middle age references, ancient monuments, the Pyramid texts.

I believe people in all ages of time, even up until today, have written and spread falsehoods about church leaders, for that's the way the Adversary works, but I firmly believe Adam only had 1 wife, Eve.

[freedomforall]

There would have been no reason for Adam to have had more than one wife. Think about it. They had over nine-hundred years to bring souls to the earth. The only slow time was when their first children had to mature enough to procreate, then their children, etc. But by the time two hundred years passed there would have been a lot of people, brothers, sisters and cousins all in the mix, on and on until the flood.

And the reason they had so much time is that Adam and Eve had not been given a reckoning of time.

Abraham 5:13
13 But of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it; for in the time that thou eatest thereof, thou shalt surely die. Now I, Abraham, saw that it was after the Lord’s time, which was after the time of Kolob; for as yet the Gods had not appointed unto Adam his reckoning.

[awake]

There would have been no reason for Adam to have had more than one wife. Think about it. They had over nine-hundred years to bring souls to the earth.

And studies have shown that 'polygamy' typically slows down the birth rate of a society, especially the more wives a man has, for the fewer children each woman generally has.

Thus 'monogamy' would be the fastest way to populate a world, especially if people believe in having large families.

"Polygamy Harms Birthrate. The data shows that for every new woman added to a male's household, the number each wife produced goes down by one child or so."
Michael Wade, Author and Evolutionary Biologist, Indiana University, News Release 2-21-11.

"One study by Garenne and De Walle shows that each woman in a Senegalese (African country) polygamous marriage has fewer children than the average for women in single-spouse marriage."

[gdemetz]

As far as I know, incest was a fairly common practice which was not a sin until it was forbidden by the law of Moses.

[patriotsaint]

There would have been no reason for Adam to have had more than one wife. Think about it. They had over nine-hundred years to bring souls to the earth.

And studies have shown that 'polygamy' typically slows down the birth rate of a society, especially the more wives a man has, for the fewer children each woman generally has.

Thus 'monogamy' would be the fastest way to populate a world, especially if people believe in having large families.

"Polygamy Harms Birthrate. The data shows that for every new woman added to a male's household, the number each wife produced goes down by one child or so."
Michael Wade, Author and Evolutionary Biologist, Indiana University, News Release 2-21-11.

"One study by Garenne and De Walle shows that each woman in a Senegalese (African country) polygamous marriage has fewer children than the average for women in single-spouse marriage."

I think I'll trust what the Lord says in Jacob. If polygamy harmed the birth rate why would the Lord command it "in order to raise up seed?" Or was that scripture in Jacob just another one of the adversaries lies? Just one scenario that would blast these studies apart would be a man taking extra wives from among women who would have otherwise remained unmarried. In such a scenario, the lower birth rate per woman does not mean less births overall.

[Original_Intent]

There would have been no reason for Adam to have had more than one wife. Think about it. They had over nine-hundred years to bring souls to the earth.

And studies have shown that 'polygamy' typically slows down the birth rate of a society, especially the more wives a man has, for the fewer children each woman generally has.

Thus 'monogamy' would be the fastest way to populate a world, especially if people believe in having large families.

"Polygamy Harms Birthrate. The data shows that for every new woman added to a male's household, the number each wife produced goes down by one child or so."
Michael Wade, Author and Evolutionary Biologist, Indiana University, News Release 2-21-11.

"One study by Garenne and De Walle shows that each woman in a Senegalese (African country) polygamous marriage has fewer children than the average for women in single-spouse marriage."

I think I'll trust what the Lord says in Jacob. If polygamy harmed the birth rate why would the Lord command it "in order to raise up seed?" Or was that scripture in Jacob just another one of the adversaries lies? Just one scenario that would blast these studies apart would be a man taking extra wives from among women who would have otherwise remained unmarried. In such a scenario, the lower birth rate per woman does not mean less births overall.

I suggest that "birth rate" is not the issue (no pun intended). I believe the entire quote is "in order to raise up seed UNTO THE LORD.". So it may not be that the Lord wants lots of babies, per se, but if there are very few righteous men, perhaps he needs those men specifically to have more wives because they will raise children "unto the Lord". A possibility.

[awake]

I think I'll trust what the Lord says in Jacob. If polygamy harmed the birth rate why would the Lord command it "in order to raise up seed?" Or was that scripture in Jacob just another one of the adversaries lies? Just one scenario that would blast these studies apart would be a man taking extra wives from among women who would have otherwise remained unmarried. In such a scenario, the lower birth rate per woman does not mean less births overall.

That verse in Jacob 2 can actually be read 2 ways.

I believe the Lord is really saying that when he wants a righteous people he will/must command his people (to keep his commandments) otherwise, they will (& always do) hearken unto these things (whoredoms).

Which I believe makes perfect sense, for every society throughout history has fallen into sin whenever they don't have the commandments continually preached to them.

Most women do marry, so I doubt that even giving the few unmarried women a chance for marriage would correct the lowered birth rate that polygamy causes, enough to bring it up to normal again. Plus, I highly doubt that most of those single women would even go along with polygamy, most probably wouldn't.

For I can't think of any women I personally know who would be happy living polygamy and the Prophet Jacob even tells us of the painful effects of polygamy on women and children.

Thus I believe happy wives and mothers who have their own exclusive husband and are loved and respected by him, (instead of neglected and depressed from living polygamy), produce the strongest, happiest and most righteous posterity.

[MrScience]

[quote="
I suggest that "birth rate" is not the issue (no pun intended). I believe the entire quote is "in order to raise up seed UNTO THE LORD.". So it may not be that the Lord wants lots of babies, per se, but if there are very few righteous men, perhaps he needs those men specifically to have more wives because they will raise children "unto the Lord". A possibility.[/quote]

I agree. Also, it could also be those children need to come through certain blood lines which will "raise up seed UNTO THE LORD."

[gdemetz]

The conception and birth of Jesus has been taught by the prophets of the church as being a "natural" process (see "Son of God" in "Mormon Doctrine"). It has also been taught that although Joseph was Mary's earthly husband, that Mary was "sealed" to Heavenly Father. There have been so many misconceptions about this one topic for a number of reasons:

1) The Hebrew word which was translated as "virgin" from Isaiah 7:14 is "almah" or "alma," and the correct meaning is young woman.

2) The sign mentioned in that same chapter is that the land would be forsaken of both kings, and not a sign of virginity. How could someone look at a girl and tell whether or not she were a virgin?

3) Nephi sees her in vision and keeps referring to her as the virgin (whom he saw) who is the mother of the Son of God. The language is confusing there, perhaps on purpose.

4) The Book of Mormon writes virgin also for the same passages as Isaiah 7:14, which is correct since Mary was a virgin, but how do virgins conceive?

5) the scriptures teach that she conceived by the Holy Ghost, which is also a true statement which people misinterpret. This simply means that the Holy Ghost sanctified and protected Mary in the presence of Heavenly Father. However, Christ is not the Son of the Holy Ghost. Mary was OVERSHADOWED (pray for the Spirit) by the Most High and conceived the Messiah.

[sbsion]

sex

[awake]

The conception and birth of Jesus has been taught by the prophets of the church as being a "natural" process (see "Son of God" in "Mormon Doctrine"). It has also been taught that although Joseph was Mary's earthly husband, that Mary was "sealed" to Heavenly Father.

We have been counseled to consider such things as merely their personal 'opinions' & most likely false, for they are not even backed up by any scripture from Joseph Smith's day.

"My words, and the teachings of any other member of the Church, high or low, if they do not square with the revelations, we need not accept them. Let us have this matter clear. We have accepted the four standard works as the measuring yardsticks, or balances, by which we measure every man's doctrine."
Joseph Fielding Smith

"If we want to measure truth, we should measure it by the four standard works, regardless of who writes it. If it is not in the standard works, we may well assume that it is speculation, man's own personal opinion; and if it contradicts what is in the scriptures, it is not true. This is the standard by which we measure all truth."
Harold B. Lee

"Whenever you find any doctrine, any idea, any expression from any source whatsoever that is in conflict with that which the Lord as revealed and which is found in the holy scriptures, you may be assured that it is false and you should put it aside."
Elder Joseph F. Smith, CR Apr. 1917, 59-60, 64.

[gdemetz]

I don't know who "counseled" you and have no idea why they would say it is false. However, Brigham Young taught it, James Talmadge taught it, and Bruce McConkie taught it in "Mormon Doctrine." Personally, I have had my on revelation to also confirm the truthfulness of what they taught since years ago I also had doubts about it.

[awake]

I don't know who "counseled" you and have no idea why they would say it is false. However, Brigham Young taught it, James Talmadge taught it, and Bruce McConkie taught it in "Mormon Doctrine." Personally, I have had my on revelation to also confirm the truthfulness of what they taught since years ago I also had doubts about it.

As the above quotes say that I just posted, we must test & judge our revelations & ideas or anyone else's in the Church, by what the scriptures say.

If we only go by what we think the Holy Ghost is telling us then we can easily be deceived, for such revelation can often be from the wrong Spirit, yet feel & seem so right.

[Fiannan]

There would have been no reason for Adam to have had more than one wife. Think about it. They had over nine-hundred years to bring souls to the earth.

And studies have shown that 'polygamy' typically slows down the birth rate of a society, especially the more wives a man has, for the fewer children each woman generally has.

Thus 'monogamy' would be the fastest way to populate a world, especially if people believe in having large families.

"Polygamy Harms Birthrate. The data shows that for every new woman added to a male's household, the number each wife produced goes down by one child or so."
Michael Wade, Author and Evolutionary Biologist, Indiana University, News Release 2-21-11.

"One study by Garenne and De Walle shows that each woman in a Senegalese (African country) polygamous marriage has fewer children than the average for women in single-spouse marriage."

Variables, variables, variables...what other factors contributed to Wade's faulty conclusions? Wade's study was on 19th Century Mormons. Here is what actually might have played a huge role in reducing birthrates in these polygamist families:

1) Edmunds Tucker Act. Well, if husband is LDS and polygamist it is a bit hard to impregnate your wive when the US government has you sitting in a jail cell. Big variable.

2) Missions. I have read of more than one instance of men having multiple wives but being called to go on missions.

Now if the Wade study is ignoring important variables then I will not even bother to check the African study.

What one could ask is what is the average number of children in these four instances:

* FLDS women -- children per woman.
* "Freelance polygamists" or those who are more like the ones in Sister Wives.
* Regular LDS women.
* General population of women in USA.

My guess is the FLDS was quite high until so many wound up in jail. The freelancers are probably the highest of all birth rates. Many LDS women never marry so that negates much of the growth rate potential of the Church and as for the general population it is pretty low, with white women being at the bottom in regards to births.

[Fiannan]

As far as I know, incest was a fairly common practice which was not a sin until it was forbidden by the law of Moses.

Guess it depends on definition as well. Abraham and Sarah had the same father. And wasn't Isaac the cousin of his wife? It is quite traditional for Middle Eastern people today to marry their first cousins.

[Helaman]

I was having a discussion with a prospective member of the church today. He brought up a question that I did not really know how to answer. He was talking about Adam and Eve and the fact that all people on the earth came from them. He asked how the population grew beyond the first generation of Adam and Eve's children. Basically for further generations to come forth, Adam and Eve's children would have had to have had sexual relations with each other and reproduced with each other. He asked if this was the only way that the earth could have been populated. He was very uncomfortable with the notion of "incest" taking place. This is a subject that most of us have at one time or another thought about I'm sure. I'm just not really sure how to answer him. If anyone has a good answer on this it would be very helpful. :ymblushing:

Its pretty clear that incest is necessary in extreme cases, such as the case with Adam and Eve's children, and with Noah's grandchildren after the flood. However, as I note in my book Nail of Heaven, LDS tradition is correct in that it teaches that Adam was a literal son of Elohim in the flesh. However, Cro-Magnons, or the species known as anatomically modern humans pre-dated Adam, and came out of Africa, and were one of the genetically compatible races on the earth with Adam's race. Furthermore, it is clear to me that from the most recent DNA evidence, that Europeans have Neanderthal DNA, and that some Asians have Denisovan DNA, and these are actually separate human species that emerged out of Africa separately from the Cro-Magnons. Adam's race came from Missouri, and these others from Africa. We are a hybrid human species, a product of both Adam's race, and the other races of so-called "pre-Adamite" humans. They had compatible DNA, even though their origins were separate. Just as the Lamanites come from a great number of "others", similarly, Adam's race was only one of the races of humans on the earth. But it was one with a special mission, as it had the knowledge of moral law, which the other races of humans on the earth did not have before the time of Adam. And so, literally, Adam fell so that men might be, so that men might have the knowledge of good and evil.

Too often I think people think that we must reject the idea that Adam was a literal son of Elohim, because somehow the existence of pre-Adamites invalidates or disproves that fact. Not at all. But the DNA proof is now inescapable that we are a hybrid race.

Ed Goble

[Helaman]

Why would an embryo be implanted artificially when conception could take place the normal and natural way.

Mary was accused of immorality anyway. Joseph thought she had been unfaithful until he was informed that Mary's child had been fathered by the Eternal Father himself.

It's humans who distort and pervert the sexual union of a man and woman.

Mary had previously been taken to the Temple and sealed to the Eternal Father. Jesus Christ was not conceived out of wedlock.

There is no need to assume that sexual intercourse took place between Mary and the Father to accomplish the task. However, I do agree with Brigham Young that the two had to be married, so that there was law. I don't think that that indicates that Mary is an eternal companion of Elohim.

Ed

[LukeAir2008]

Why would an embryo be implanted artificially when conception could take place the normal and natural way.

Mary was accused of immorality anyway. Joseph thought she had been unfaithful until he was informed that Mary's child had been fathered by the Eternal Father himself.

It's humans who distort and pervert the sexual union of a man and woman.

Mary had previously been taken to the Temple and sealed to the Eternal Father. Jesus Christ was not conceived out of wedlock.

There is no need to assume that sexual intercourse took place between Mary and the Father to accomplish the task. However, I do agree with Brigham Young that the two had to be married, so that there was law. I don't think that that indicates that Mary is an eternal companion of Elohim.

Ed

The Gospel of Bartholomew says that Mary was sealed to the Eternal Father. Elohim is plural so, no, I don't think she was sealed to multiple Gods.

I don't think El goes in for marriage till death you do part so I don't see what other option there would be?

If Jesus wasn't created through sexual reproduction then what other options are there? IVF? Test-tube saviour? Magic spells?

[HeirofNumenor]

I vote for a form of in-vitro...all that was necessary was for sperm to meet egg...didn't have to come from sexual intercourse to be in the natural way...and if this was the case, then Heavenly Father would not have had to have been married/sealed to one of his spirit children either...

[Helaman]

The Gospel of Bartholomew says that Mary was sealed to the Eternal Father. Elohim is plural so, no, I don't think she was sealed to multiple Gods.

I don't think El goes in for marriage till death you do part so I don't see what other option there would be?

If Jesus wasn't created through sexual reproduction then what other options are there? IVF? Test-tube saviour? Magic spells?

I've read the Gospel of Bartholomew, and it shows that a marriage took place. It doesn't say she was sealed to him for eternity. Joseph had other children with her. Will they be sealed directly to the Father? For what purpose? The only reason she had two husbands was because it could be no other way. The Father would have no reason to make her an eternal companion. But the conception had to be legitimate.

The scriptures say that the power of the Holy Ghost was involved, and Brigham Young makes it clear that it is not the person of the Holy Ghost that was involved. There is no reason, if we confine ourselves to the scriptures to assume that there was anything more than the power of the Holy Ghost was used to cause DNA to be formed in a certain manner in an ovum that caused conception, modelling that DNA after the Father's and Mary's DNA. Virgin births are not unheard of in many species, and there is no reason to assume anything more. Brigham Young's beliefs are useful as far as the marriage thing goes. As for the mechanism, I am not bound to accept what he believed on that point, just because he believed it, any more than I'm bound to believe in the classic interpretation of Adam God.

Ed

[HeirofNumenor]

However, Cro-Magnons, or the species known as anatomically modern humans pre-dated Adam, and came out of Africa, and were one of the genetically compatible races on the earth with Adam's race. Furthermore, it is clear to me that from the most recent DNA evidence, that Europeans have Neanderthal DNA, and that some Asians have Denisovan DNA, and these are actually separate human species that emerged out of Africa separately from the Cro-Magnons. Adam's race came from Missouri, and these others from Africa. We are a hybrid human species, a product of both Adam's race, and the other races of so-called "pre-Adamite" humans. They had compatible DNA, even though their origins were separate. Just as the Lamanites come from a great number of "others", similarly, Adam's race was only one of the races of humans on the earth. But it was one with a special mission, as it had the knowledge of moral law, which the other races of humans on the earth did not have before the time of Adam. And so, literally, Adam fell so that men might be, so that men might have the knowledge of good and evil.

Too often I think people think that we must reject the idea that Adam was a literal son of Elohim, because somehow the existence of pre-Adamites invalidates or disproves that fact. Not at all. But the DNA proof is now inescapable that we are a hybrid race.

What about the possibility of these pre-Adamites being considered preparatory life, and being wiped out before the modern life forms (plants & animals & man) were placed - including Eden?

[Kingdom of ZION]

JS taught that Adam had at least two wives Lilith and Eve (I know that Adam actually had three wives), and it is most clear to any sincere seekers of the truth that the Messiah had plural wives. The actual issue here is not whether these two men [G_ds] who one was the Father of all living and the Son who is our most perfect example of righteousness, were and are the most Godly of men, it is that he had at least two wives here to begin the human race on this planet. Lets look at His posterity... He has more children through 'polygamy' then anyone and it never slowed down the birth rate of His society, which we are all members of.

Shalom

[awake]

JS taught that Adam had at least two wives Lilith and Eve

Do you have a reference where Joseph Smith 'publicly' said and 'published' that statement while he was alive? Or does it just come from hearsay from someone else after his death?

For such an idea is completely contrary to everything that Joseph taught the Church about polygamy while he was alive & contrary to all the scriptures that Joseph gave us.