The Doctrine of Eternal Lives...

[freedomforall]

I will just wait til it's time to receive this info. No sense of taking graduate courses when still at a Jr or Sr high level. There's milk, meat, and now bones. I will gnaw on it in good time. Skipping grades and leaping over precepts upon precepts can make a future principle distorted imo

How about completely wrested?

Second Estate's are born but once and will live and die and be judged according to their knowledge of the truth, and their deeds in the flesh. Fourth Estate Beings are here only as emissaries of the Most High, in a world where He nor His Son, nor His Grandson Michael, nor His Great Grandson, our Messiah, Uriel can come!

This does not corroborate the fact that Jesus/Jehovah is the first born in Spirit and Only begotten in the flesh. He is Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last, our Messiah, Lord, King, Redeemer, Savior, Advocate with the Father and our Shepard. Scriptures tell us this all over the place. So knowing this fact, how can the Savior be someone's great grandson?

What am I missing here? Where's the recent memo on this?

[freedomforall]

Right, but how does that progression between kingdoms occur? How can there be progress without opposition? How can there be opposition unless we are in a probationary state?

Here is some info that may solve everything.

The Seven Deadly Heresies
BRUCE R. MCCONKIE

Bruce R. McConkie was a member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints when this fireside address was given at Brigham Young University on 1 June 1980.
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1) Heresy one: There are those who say that God is progressing in knowledge and is learning new truths.
2) Heresy two concerns itself with the relationship between organic evolution and revealed religion and asks the question whether they can be harmonized.
3) Heresy three: There are those who say that temple marriage assures us of an eventual exaltation.
4) Heresy four: There are those who believe that the doctrine of salvation for the dead offers men a second chance for salvation.
5) Heresy five: There are those who say that there is progression from one kingdom to another in the eternal worlds or that lower kingdoms eventually progress to where higher kingdoms once were.
6) Heresy six: There are those who believe or say they believe that Adam is our father and our god, that he is the father of our spirits and our bodies, and that he is the one we worship.
7) Heresy seven: There are those who believe we must be perfect to gain salvation.

I have sought and do now seek that guidance and enlightenment which comes from the Holy Spirit of God. I desire to speak by the power of the Holy Ghost so that my words will be true and wise and proper. When any of us speak by the power of the Spirit, we say what the Lord wants said, or, better, what he would say if he were here in person.
I shall depart from my normal and usual pattern and read portions of my presentation because I want to state temperately and accurately the doctrinal principles involved and to say them in a way that will not leave room for doubt or question. I shall speak on some matters that some may consider to be controversial, though they ought not to be. They are things on which we ought to be united, and to the extent we are all guided and enlightened from on high we will be. If we are so united--and there will be no disagreement among those who believe and understand the revealed word--we will progress and advance and grow in the things of the Spirit; we will prepare ourselves for a life of peace and happiness and joy here and now, and for an eventual eternal reward in the kingdom of our Father.
There is a song or a saying or a proverb or a legend or a tradition or something that speaks of seven deadly sins. I know nothing whatever about these and hope you do not. My subject is one about which some few of you, unfortunately, do know a little. It is "The Seven Deadly Heresies"--not the great heresies of a lost and fallen Christendom, but some that have crept in among us.
Now I take a text. These words were written by Paul to certain ancient Saints. In principle they apply to us:
I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.
For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you. [1 Corinthians 11:18­19]
Now let me list some axioms (I guess in academic circles we call these caveats):
--There is no salvation in believing a false doctrine.
--Truth, diamond truth, truth unmixed with error, truth alone leads to salvation.
--What we believe determines what we do.
--No man can be saved in ignorance of God and his laws.
--Man is saved no faster than he gains knowledge of Jesus Christ and the saving truths of his everlasting gospel.
--Gospel doctrines belong to the Lord, not to men. They are his. He ordained them, he reveals them, and he expects us to believe them.
--The doctrines of salvation are not discovered in a laboratory or on a geological field trip or by accompanying Darwin around the world. They come by revelation and in no other way.
--Our sole concern in seeking truth should be to learn and believe what the Lord knows and believes. Providentially he has set forth some of his views in the holy scriptures.
--Our goal as mortals is to gain the mind of Christ, to believe what he believes, to think what he thinks, to say what he says, to do what he does, and to be as he is.
--We are called upon to reject all heresies and cleave unto all truth. Only then can we progress according to the divine plan. As the Lord has said,
Whatever principle of intelligence we attain unto in this life, it will rise with us in the resurrection.
And if a person gains more knowledge and intelligence in this life through his diligence and obedience than another, he will have so much the advantage in the world to come. [D&C 130:18­19]
Please note that knowledge is gained by obedience. It comes by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel. In the ultimate and full sense it comes only by revelation from the Holy Ghost. There are some things a sinful man does not and cannot know. The Lord's people are promised: "By the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things" (Moroni 10:5). But if they do not seek the Spirit, if they do not accept the revelations God has given, if they cannot distinguish between the revealed word and the theories of men, they have no promise of gaining a fullness of truth by the power of the Holy Ghost.
Now may I suggest the list of heresies.
Heresy one: There are those who say that God is progressing in knowledge and is learning new truths.
This is false--utterly, totally, and completely. There is not one sliver of truth in it. It grows out of a wholly twisted and incorrect view of the King Follett Sermon and of what is meant by eternal progression.
God progresses in the sense that his kingdoms increase and his dominions multiply--not in the sense that he learns new truths and discovers new laws. God is not a student. He is not a laboratory technician. He is not postulating new theories on the basis of past experiences. He has indeed graduated to that state of exaltation that consists of knowing all things and having all power.
The life that God lives is named eternal life. His name, one of them, is "Eternal," using that word as a noun and not as an adjective, and he uses that name to identify the type of life that he lives. God's life is eternal life, and eternal life is God's life. They are one and the same. Eternal life is the reward we shall obtain if we believe and obey and walk uprightly before him. And eternal life consists of two things. It consists of life in the family unit, and, also, of inheriting, receiving, and possessing the fullness of the glory of the Father. Anyone who has each of these things is an inheritor and possessor of the greatest of all gifts of God, which is eternal life.
Eternal progression consists of living the kind of life God lives and of increasing in kingdoms and dominions everlastingly. Why anyone should suppose that an infinite and eternal being who has presided in our universe for almost 2,555,000,000 years, who made the sidereal heavens, whose creations are more numerous than the particles of the earth, and who is aware of the fall of every sparrow--why anyone would suppose that such a being has more to learn and new truths to discover in the laboratories of eternity is totally beyond my comprehension.
Will he one day learn something that will destroy the plan of salvation and turn man and the universe into an uncreated nothingness? Will he discover a better plan of salvation than the one he has already given to men in worlds without number?
The saving truth, as revealed to and taught, formally and officially, by the Prophet Joseph Smith in the Lectures on Faith is that God is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent. He knows all things, he has all power, and he is everywhere present by the power of his Spirit. And unless we know and believe this doctrine we cannot gain faith unto life and salvation.
Joseph Smith also taught in the Lectures on Faith "that three things are necessary in order that any rational and intelligent being may exercise faith in God unto life and salvation." These he named as--
1. The idea that he actually exists;
2. A correct idea of his character, perfections, and attributes; and
3. An actual knowledge that the course of life which he is pursuing is according to the divine will.
The attributes of God are given as knowledge, faith or power, justice, judgment, mercy, and truth. The perfections of God are named as "the perfections which belong to all of the attributes of his nature," which is to say that God possesses and has all knowledge, all faith or power, all justice, all judgment, all mercy, and all truth. He is indeed the very embodiment and personification and source of all these attributes. Does anyone suppose that God can be more honest than he already is? Neither need any suppose there are truths he does not know or knowledge he does not possess.
Thus Joseph Smith taught, and these are his words:
Without the knowledge of all things, God would not be able to save any portion of his creatures; for it is by reason of the knowledge which he has of all things, from the beginning to the end, that enables him to give that understanding to his creatures by which they are made partakers of eternal life; and if it were not for the idea existing in the minds of men that God had all knowledge it would be impossible for them to exercise faith in him. [As quoted by Bruce R. McConkie in Mormon Doctrine (Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1966), p.264]
If God is just dabbling with a few truths he has already chanced to learn or experimenting with a few facts he has already discovered, we have no idea as to the real end and purpose of creation.
Heresy two concerns itself with the relationship between organic evolution and revealed religion and asks the question whether they can be harmonized.
There are those who believe that the theory of organic evolution runs counter to the plain and explicit principles set forth in the holy scriptures as these have been interpreted and taught by Joseph Smith and his associates. There are others who think that evolution is the system used by the Lord to form plant and animal life and to place man on earth.
May I say that all truth is in agreement, that true religion and true science bear the same witness, and that in the true and full sense, true science is part of true religion. But may I also raise some questions of a serious nature. Is there any way to harmonize the false religions of the Dark Ages with the truths of science as they have now been discovered? Is there any way to harmonize the revealed religion that has come to us with the theoretical postulates of Darwinism and the diverse speculations descending therefrom?
Should we accept the famous document of the First Presidency issued in the days of President Joseph F. Smith and entitled "The Origin of Man" as meaning exactly what it says? Is it the doctrine of the gospel that Adam stood next to Christ in power and might and intelligence before the foundations of the world were laid; that Adam was placed on this earth as an immortal being; that there was no death in the world for him or for any form of life until after the Fall; that the fall of Adam brought temporal and spiritual death into the world; that this temporal death passed upon all forms of life, upon man and animal and fish and fowl and plant life; that Christ came to ransom man and all forms of life from the effects of the temporal death brought into the world through the Fall, and in the case of man from a spiritual death also; and that this ransom includes a resurrection for man and for all forms of life? Can you harmonize these things with the evolutionary postulate that death has always existed and that the various forms of life have evolved from preceding forms over astronomically long periods of time?
Can you harmonize the theories of men with the inspired words that say:
And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the Garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end.
And they [meaning Adam and Eve] would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin.
But behold, all things have been done in the wisdom of him who knoweth all things.
Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy.
And the Messiah cometh in the fulness of time, that he may redeem the children of men from the fall. [2 Nephi 2:22­26]
These are questions to which all of us should find answers. Every person must choose for himself what he will believe. I recommend that all of you study and ponder and pray and seek light and knowledge in these and in all fields.
I believe that the atonement of Christ is the great and eternal foundation upon which revealed religion rests. I believe that no man can be saved unless he believes that our Lord's atoning sacrifice brings immortality to all and eternal life to those who believe and obey, and no man can believe in the atonement unless he accepts both the divine sonship of Christ and the fall of Adam.
My reasoning causes me to conclude that if death has always prevailed in the world, then there was no fall of Adam that brought death to all forms of life; that if Adam did not fall, there is no need for an atonement; that if there was no atonement, there is no salvation, no resurrection, and no eternal life; and that if there was no atonement, there is nothing in all of the glorious promises that the Lord has given us. I believe that the Fall affects man, all forms of life, and the earth itself, and that the Atonement affects man, all forms of life, and the earth itself.
Heresy three: There are those who say that temple marriage assures us of an eventual exaltation. Some have supposed that couples married in the temple who commit all manner of sin, and who then pay the penalty, will gain their exaltation eventually.
This notion is contrary to the whole system and plan that the Lord has ordained, a system under which we are privileged to work out our salvation with fear and trembling before him. If we believe and obey, if we enter the waters of baptism and make solemn covenants with the Lord to keep his commandments, we thereby get on a strait and narrow path that leads from the gate of repentance and baptism to a reward that is called eternal life. And if we traverse the length of the path going upward and forward and onward, keeping the commandments, loving the Lord, and doing all that we ought to do, eventually we will be inheritors of that reward.
And in exactly and precisely the same sense, celestial marriage is a gate that puts us on a path leading to exaltation in the highest heaven of the celestial world. It is in that highest realm of glory and dignity and honor hereafter that the family unit continues. Those who inherit a place in the highest heaven receive the reward that is named eternal life. Baptism is a gate; celestial marriage is a gate. When we get on the paths of which I speak, we are then obligated to keep the commandments. My suggestion in this field is that you go to the temple and listen to a ceremony of celestial marriage, paying particular and especial attention to the words, and learn what the promises are that are given. And you will learn that all of the promises given are conditioned upon subsequent compliance with all of the terms and conditions of that order of matrimony.
Heresy four: There are those who believe that the doctrine of salvation for the dead offers men a second chance for salvation.
I knew a man, now deceased, not a member of the Church, who was a degenerate old reprobate who found pleasure, as he supposed, in living after the manner of the world. A cigarette dangled from his lips, alcohol stenched his breath, and profane and bawdy stories defiled his lips. His moral status left much to be desired.
His wife was a member of the Church, as faithful as she could be under the circumstances. One day she said to him, "You know the Church is true; why won't you be baptized?" He replied, "Of course I know the Church is true, but I have no intention of changing my habits in order to join it. I prefer to live the way I do. But that doesn't worry me in the slightest. I know that as soon as I die, you will have someone go to the temple and do the work for me and everything will come out all right in the end anyway."
He died and she had the work done in the temple. We do not sit in judgment and deny vicarious ordinances to people. But what will it profit him?
There is no such thing as a second chance to gain salvation. This life is the time and the day of our probation. After this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed.
For those who do not have an opportunity to believe and obey the holy word in this life, the first chance to gain salvation will come in the spirit world. If those who hear the word for the first time in the realms ahead are the kind of people who would have accepted the gospel here, had the opportunity been afforded them, they will accept it there. Salvation for the dead is for those whose first chance to gain salvation is in the spirit world.
In the revelation recently added to our canon of holy writ, these words are found:
Thus came the voice of the Lord unto me, saying: All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God;
Also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who would have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom;
For I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts. [D&C 137:7­9]
There is no other promise of salvation than the one recited in that revelation. Those who reject the gospel in this life and then receive it in the spirit world go not to the celestial, but to the terrestrial kingdom.
Heresy five: There are those who say that there is progression from one kingdom to another in the eternal worlds or that lower kingdoms eventually progress to where higher kingdoms once were.
This belief lulls men into a state of carnal security. It causes them to say, "God is so merciful; surely he will save us all eventually; if we do not gain the celestial kingdom now, eventually we will; so why worry?" It lets people live a life of sin here and now with the hope that they will be saved eventually.
The true doctrine is that all men will be resurrected, but they will come forth in the resurrection with different kinds of bodies--some celestial, others terrestrial, others telestial, and some with bodies incapable of standing any degree of glory. The body we receive in the resurrection determines the glory we receive in the kingdoms that are prepared.
Of those in the telestial world it is written: "And they shall be servants of the Most High; but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end" (D&C 76:112).
Of those who had the opportunity to enter into the new and everlasting covenant of marriage in this life and who did not do it, the revelation says:
Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in marriage; but are appointed angels in heaven; which angels are ministering servants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory.
For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever. [D&C 132:16­17]
They neither progress from one kingdom to another, nor does a lower kingdom ever get where a higher kingdom once was. Whatever eternal progression there is, it is within a sphere.
Heresy six: There are those who believe or say they believe that Adam is our father and our god, that he is the father of our spirits and our bodies, and that he is the one we worship.
The devil keeps this heresy alive as a means of obtaining converts to cultism. It is contrary to the whole plan of salvation set forth in the scriptures, and anyone who has read the Book of Moses, and anyone who has received the temple endowment, has no excuse whatever for being led astray by it. Those who are so ensnared reject the living prophet and close their ears to the apostles of their day. "We will follow those who went before," they say. And having so determined, they soon are ready to enter polygamous relationships that destroy their souls.
We worship the Father, in the name of the Son, by the power of the Holy Ghost; and Adam is their foremost servant, by whom the peopling of our planet was commenced.
Heresy seven: There are those who believe we must be perfect to gain salvation.
This is not really a great heresy, only a doctrinal misunderstanding that I mention here in order to help round out our discussion and to turn our attention from negative to positive things. If we keep two principles in mind we will thereby know that good and faithful members of the Church will be saved, even though they are far from perfect in this life.
These two principles are (1) that this life is the appointed time for men to prepare to meet God--this life is the day of our probation; and (2) that the same spirit which possesses our bodies at the time we go out of this mortal life shall have power to possess our bodies in that eternal world.
What we are doing as members of the Church is charting a course leading to eternal life. There was only one perfect being, the Lord Jesus. If men had to be perfect and live all of the law strictly, wholly, and completely, there would be only one saved person in eternity. The prophet taught that there are many things to be done, even beyond the grave, in working out our salvation.
And so what we do in this life is chart a course leading to eternal life. That course begins here and now and continues in the realms ahead. We must determine in our hearts and in our souls, with all the power and ability we have, that from this time forward we will press on in righteousness; by so doing we can go where God and Christ are. If we make that firm determination, and are in the course of our duty when this life is over, we will continue in that course in eternity. That same spirit that possesses our bodies at the time we depart from this mortal life will have power to possess our bodies in the eternal world. If we go out of this life loving the Lord, desiring righteousness, and seeking to acquire the attributes of godliness, we will have that same spirit in the eternal world, and we will then continue to advance and progress until an ultimate, destined day when we will possess, receive, and inherit all things.
Now I do not say these are the only great heresies that prevail among us. There are others that might be mentioned. My suggestion, relative to all doctrines and all principles, is that we become students of holy writ, and that we conform our thinking and our beliefs to what is found in the standard works. We need to be less concerned about the views and opinions that others have expressed and drink directly from the fountain the Lord has given us. Then we shall come to a true understanding of the points of his doctrine. And if we pursue such a course, we will soon find that it proceeds in a different direction than the one that the world pursues. We will not be troubled with the intellectual views and expressions of uninspired people. We will soon obtain for ourselves the witness of the Spirit that we are pursuing a course that is pleasing to the Lord, and this knowledge will have a cleansing and sanctifying and edifying influence upon us.
Now, in order to have things in perspective, let me identify the three greatest heresies in all Christendom. They do not prevail among us, fortunately, but they are part of the gross and universal darkness that covers the earth and blots out from the minds of men those truths upon which salvation rests.
The greatest truth known to man is that there is a God in heaven who is infinite and eternal; that he is the creator, upholder, and preserver of all things; that he created us and the sidereal heavens and ordained and established a plan of salvation whereby we might advance and progress and become like him. The truth pertaining to him is that he is our Father in heaven, that he has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's, that he is a literal person, and that if we believe and obey his laws we can gain the exaltation that he possesses. Now that is the greatest truth and the most glorious concept known to the human mind, and the reverse of it is the greatest heresy in all Christendom.
The Christian heresy, where God is concerned, is that Deity is a spirit essence that fills the immensity of space; that he is three beings in one; that he is uncreated, incorporeal, and incomprehensible; that he is without body, parts, or passions; that he is a spirit nothingness that is everywhere and nowhere in particular present. These are concepts written in the creeds had in the churches of the world.
The second greatest truth in all eternity pertains to the divine sonship of the Lord, Jesus Christ. It includes the eternal verity that he was foreordained in the councils of eternity to come to earth and be the redeemer of men, to come and ransom men from the temporal and spiritual death brought upon them by the fall of Adam. This second greatest truth is that Christ worked out the infinite and eternal atoning sacrifice because of which all men are raised in immortality and those who believe and obey are raised also unto eternal life.
Now the second greatest heresy in all Christendom is designed to destroy the glories and wonders of the infinite and eternal atonement. It is that men are saved by some kind of lip service, by the grace of God, without work and without effort on their part.
The third greatest truth known to mankind is that the Holy Spirit of God is a revelator and a sanctifier, that he is a personage of spirit, that his assigned ministry and work in the eternal Godhead is to bear record of the Father and of the Son, to reveal them and their truths to men. His work is to cleanse and perfect human souls, to burn dross and evil out of human souls as though by fire. We call that the baptism of fire.
Now the opposite of that is the third greatest heresy in all Christendom. It is that revelation has ceased, that God's mouth is closed, that the Holy Ghost no longer inspires men, that the gifts of the Spirit were done away with after the death of the ancient apostles, and that we no longer need to follow the course they charted.
I simply name these things; I think you will want to weigh and evaluate what is involved. I think you will want to ponder and wonder and search the scriptures. After Jesus had been teaching the Nephites as a resurrected person, giving them as much truth as in his wisdom he felt they could absorb at one time, he counseled them to go to their homes, and to ponder in their hearts the things he had said, and to pray to the Father in his name to find out if they were true, and then to come again on the morrow and he would teach them more.
Now that gives us the pattern by which we should operate in the Church. We come together in congregations, seeking the guidance of the Holy Spirit, studying the revelations, reading the scriptures, and hearing expressions of doctrine and counsel given by those who are appointed. These teachings ought to be delivered by the power of the Holy Spirit. They ought to be received by the same power. And if they are, then the speaker and the hearer will be mutually edified, and we will have true and proper worship.
Then when the meeting is over, the "amen" should not end it. We should go to our homes and to our families and to our circles, and we should search out the revelations and find out what the Lord has said on the subjects involved. We should seek to get in tune with the Holy Spirit and to gain a witness, not solely of the truth and divinity of the work in which we are engaged but also of the doctrines that are taught by those who preach to us. We come into these congregations, and sometimes a speaker brings a jug of living water that has in it many gallons. And when he pours it out on the congregation, all the members have brought is a single cup and so that's all they take away. Or maybe they have their hands over the cups, and they don't get anything to speak of.
On other occasions we have meetings where the speaker comes and all he brings is a little cup of eternal truth, and the members of the congregation come with a large jug, and all they get in their jugs is the little dribble that came from a man who should have known better and who should have prepared himself and talked from the revelations and spoken by the power of the Holy Spirit. We are obligated in the Church to speak by the power of the Spirit. We are commanded to treasure up the words of light and truth and then give forth the portion that is appropriate and needful on every occasion.
I do not think that the heresies I have named are common in the Church. I think that the great majority of the members of the Church believe and understand true doctrines and seek to apply true principles in their lives. Unfortunately, there are a few people who agitate and stir these matters up, who have some personal ax to grind, and who desire to spread philosophies of their own, philosophies that, as near as the judges in Israel can discern, are not in harmony with the mind and will and purpose of the Lord. It is incumbent upon us to believe the truth. We have the obligation to find out what is truth, and then we have the obligation to walk in the light and to apply the truths that we have learned to ourselves and to influence others to do likewise.
Now the glorious and wondrous thing about this whole system of revealed religion that the Lord, our God, has given us is the fact that it is true. There isn't a grander, a more glorious, a more wondrous concept than the simple one that the work in which we are engaged is true. And because it is true it will triumph and prevail, and the knowledge of God and his truths will roll forth until it covers the whole earth as the waters cover the sea. We do not expect to have a perfect society among us until the millennial day dawns. But that is not far distant. And when that day comes, we will all, as the scriptures say, see eye to eye and speak with one voice, and the Lord himself will dwell among us. He could not dwell among us now because we are divided and we are not living in that perfect harmony and unity and with that devotion that prevailed among the Saints in the city of Enoch.
God grant that we may be wise in what we do, that we may seek truth, that we may live in harmony with the truth, that we may bear testimony of the truth, and that we may, as a consequence, have joy and peace and happiness here and now and be inheritors, in due course, of eternal reward in our Father's kingdom. This is my prayer for myself and for all of you, and for all of the members of the Church, and for honest truthseekers everywhere, and I offer it in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. Amen.

[freedomforall]

There is no such thing as MMP or anything like it in any shape, way or form. This life is it, folks. Any other teachings going against this fact is false.

[Catherine]

I do not believe in reincarnation. I have been taught a concept from an active committed member of the church who is my brother in law and who has held many high church callings.It is the possibility of "rounds." Here is just a summary sketch of what I mean. We are born. We live our life. We die. Christ returns to earth and ushers in the 1,000 year millennial time. At the end of that time there is the final war, (Gog, Magog) Then the son,(Jesus Christ) says to the Father, (God) "It is finished." All temple work will be complete for every human being that has ever been born on the planet. This is the time for final judgement and assigninments made to kingdoms. Many will be content to where they are placed. Some will not. There may be an opportunity to do it all again. Not going back to Earth. As "Earth" as we know it now is no longer the same. It has received its glory and now acts as the celestial kingdom. But there are worlds without number. And those worlds are going through the same process that we have gone through on Earth. So maybe I will choose to go to another "earth life" to progress further. If you really think about it. Are you anywhere near becoming a God? if we will live eternally and forever what will we be doing? I personally believe it is not out of the realm of possibility that we have already been through many rounds and will have many more to go. That could explain why everyone born on this earth is at a different level of progression. I know I may sound crazy to some but for others I just may resonate something to think about. It's a lot to take in but I just focus on the life I am living now and doing the best that I can and should do here. Everything else will fall into place as it should.

[Kingdom of ZION]

Here is some info that may solve everything For YOU.

October 26, 1980

Elder Bruce R. McConkie
Church Office Building
47 East South Temple
Salt Lake City, Utah 84103

Dear Elder McConkie:
I recently received a copy of your lecture to the Fourteen-Stake Fireside at
the Marriott Center concerning the Seven Heresies which you said had crept
into the Church. It is apparent that you believe these heresies have been in
the Church for nearly 150 years, because some of the early presidents of the
Church advocated them.

You listed seven heresies in your remarks, but I would like to write to you
concerning only the first one. In Heresy No. 1 you said, "There are those who
say that God is progressing in knowledge and is learning new truths. This is
false utterly, totally, and completely!" Then you added, "I have been sorely
tempted to say at this point that any who so suppose have the intellect of an
ant and the understanding of a clod of mirey clay in a primordial swamp."

You undoubtedly were referring to President Brigham Young, as he was the
principle advocate of that doctrine and taught it all his life. I would like
to quote from some of his sermons on this subject for an understanding of how
he could get into that "mirey clay" of such a peculiar "swamp".

To begin with, the President presented his opinion in the following
expression:

Could we live to the age of Methuselah, and eat the fruits which the
earth would produce in her strength, as did Adam and Eve before the
transgression, and spend our lives in searching after the principles of
eternal life, we would find, when one eternity had passed to us, that we
had been but children thus far, babies just commencing to learn the
things which pertain to the eternities of the Gods.

We might ask, when shall we cease to learn? I will give you my opinion
about it: NEVER, NEVER. (JD 3:202)

Brigham Young reflected upon the knowledge that he himself was gaining when he
added, "--the more I learn, the more I discern an eternity of knowledge to
improve upon." (JD 7:162) Hence, as a man grows in knowledge, the more it
compounds and expands into further knowledge without an end. Apostle Lorenzo
Snow reasoned this same point of view by applying this knowledge to both the
present time and the eternities:

[2] Now, when a person receives intelligence from the Lord, and is willing to
communicate that for the benefit of the people, he will receive continual
additions to that intelligence; and there is no end to his increase so
long as he will hold fast to the faith of the Lord Jesus Christ; and so
long as he will hold himself in readiness to operate here, go there, and
work for the Lord, travel abroad to the nations of the earth, or to
travel among the mountains of Israel, that individual is bound to become
strong and mighty in the power of God and in the intelligence of
eternity. (JD 5:64)

Brigham said that man, angels and God may all be perfect in their sphere, but
that it did not limit their growth in perfection.

We are now, or may be, as perfect in our sphere as God and Angels are in
theirs, but the greatest intelligence in existence can continually ascend
to greater heights of perfection. (JD 1:93)

Brigham was not as descriptive as you are about people who had contrary
beliefs, but he did say that all those who believed that God could not
progress in knowledge were "shrouded in ignorance" and were darkened in
understanding.

I know that we have been taught from our infancy, and it is now a popular
doctrine with all the denominations of the Christians of the nineteenth
century, that, when the mortal tenement is committed to the grave, there
is an end of all further progress in intelligence and learning with
regard to this probation.

On the other hand, if we are striving with all the powers and faculties
God has given us to improve upon our talents, to prepare ourselves to
dwell in eternal life, and the grave receives our bodies while we are
thus engaged, with what disposition will our spirits enter their next
state? They will be still striving to do the things of God, only in a
much greater degree--learning, increasing, growing in grace and in the
knowledge of the truth.

The people called Christians are shrouded in ignorance, and read the
Scriptures with darkened understandings (JD 7:333)

From these above words of Brigham Young, we learn that the theory you advocate
is one that is commonly taught by the sectarian ministers of modern
Christianity. He further said he did not believe that we could put bounds on
God.

It has been stated that God our Father comprehends eternity, from
eternity to eternity, all there is, all there was, all there ever can be
about eternity, in and through its. When a person undertakes to establish
such a doctrine, what does he do? He gives bounds to that eternity which
he at the same time admits to be boundless. Admit such doctrine, and
eternity flees away like the shadow of morning; and that is as much as I
ever teach about it. (JD 8:17)

But let's suppose that man's eternal progression in knowledge should reach a
stopping point. What then? Brigham Young conceived of such a condition and
further explained those consequences. Said he:

[3] Life is an accumulation of every property and principle that is
calculated to enrich, to ennoble, to enlarge, and to increase, in every
particular, the dominion of individual man. To me, life would signify an
extension. I have the privilege of spreading abroad, of enlarging my
borders, of increasing in endless knowledge, wisdom, and power, and in
every gift of God.

To live as I am, without progress, is not life; in fact, we may say that
is impossible. There is no such principle in existence, neither can there
be. All organized existence is in progress, either to an endless
advancement in eternal perfections, or back to dissolution. You may
explore all the eternities that have been, were it possible, then come to
that which we now understand according to the principles of natural
philosophy, and where is there an element, an individual living thing, an
organized body of whatever nature, that continues as it is? It cannot be
found. All things that have come within the bounds of man's limited
knowledge--the things he naturally understands, teach him that there is
no period, in all the eternities, wherein organized existence will become
stationary, that it cannot advance in knowledge, wisdom, power and glory.
(JD 1:349)

Then he concluded by adding:

If a man could ever arrive at the point that would put an end to the
accumulation of life--the point at which he could increase no more, and
advance no further, we should naturally say he commenced to decrease at
the same point. Again, when he has gained the zenith of knowledge,
wisdom, and power, it is the point at which he begins to retrograde; his
natural abilities will begin to contract, and so he will continue to
decrease, until all he knew is lost in the chaos of forgetfulness. As we
understand naturally, this is the conclusion we must come to, if a
termination to the increase of life, and the acquisition of knowledge is
true.

Because of the weakness of human nature, it must crumble to the dust. But
in all the revolutions and changes in the existence of men, in the
eternal world which they inhabit, and in the knowledge they have obtained
as people on the earth, there is no such thing as principle, power,
wisdom, knowledge, life, position, or anything that can be imagined, that
remains stationary--they must increase or decrease. To me, life is
increase; death is the opposite. (JD 1:350; also Contributor 5:22)

Then Brigham Young introduced another thought. Consider this philosophical gem
which may be overlooked by those who think there must be an end to gaining
knowledge.

Those persons who strive to gain eternal life, gain that which will
produce the increase their hearts will be satisfied with. Nothing less
than the privilege of increasing eternally, in every sense of the word,
can satisfy the immortal spirit. (JD 1:350)

[4] So, when knowledge comes to an end, boredom begins. There is only boredom
and discontent when man is restricted and cannot improve, grow or increase his
learning.

Then President Young adds another thought which relates to both the spiritual
realm as well as the mortal. He said:

If the endless stream of knowledge from the eternal fountain could all be
drunk in by organized intelligences, so surely immortality would come to
an end, and all eternity be thrown upon the retrograde path. (JD 1:350)

Nearly all of the other leaders in the Church believed in a God that could
progress in knowledge and glory. Apostle Erastus Snow also explained the
necessity of increasing in knowledge and truth when he commented:

The more the mental faculties are brought into exercise, if it is not
immoderate exercise, the more these faculties receive strength, and the
greater powers of research are developed in that spirit; and where shall
the end be?

There is no end to its increase of knowledge and truth, unless we turn
round and go the other way; in other words, unless we persistently pursue
the path of death and violate every law, both physical and mental, until
we become dissolved. (JD 7:354)

Admittedly, it is possible for men to reach a point at which they cease to
learn or gain knowledge, and some men do reach that undesirable position. But,
if you understood what Brigham Young said on this matter, you probably
wouldn't be encouraging the members of the Church to anticipate such a state
of existence. Brigham said:

If we continue to learn all that we can pertaining to the salvation which
is purchased and presented to us through the Son of God, is there a time
when a person will cease to learn? Yes, when he has sinned against God
the Father, Jesus Christ the Son, and the Holy Ghost--God's minister;
when he has denied the Lord, defied Him and committed the sin that in the
Bible is termed the unpardonable sin--the sin against the Holy Ghost.
That is the time when a person will cease to learn, and from that time
forth, will descend in ignorance, forgetting that which they formerly
knew, and decreasing until they return to the native element, whether it
be one thousand or one million years, or during as many eternities as you
can count. They will cease to increase, but must decrease, until they
return to the native element. THESE ARE THE ONLY CHARACTERS WHO WILL EVER
CEASE TO LEARN, BOTH IN TIME AND ETERNITY.

We shall never cease to learn, unless we apostatize from the religion of
Jesus Christ. Then we shall cease to increase, and will continue to
decrease and decompose, until we return to our native element. Can you
understand that? It is a subject worthy of the attention of the eminent
divines of Christendom, and they may search into it until they are tired,
and still know comparatively little about it, while I preach it to you in
a few words. (JD 3:203)

[5] If the sons of perdition are the only ones who cease to learn, then the
theory you are advocating is not very desirable. I do not consider ceasing to
learn as a part of Mormon Doctrine. I have always been taught that when we
stop progressing, we are damned!

In your remarks regarding this "heresy", you also stated that, "Neither need
any suppose there are truths he [God] does not know, or knowledge he does not
possess." I believe the origin of this theory came from Orson Pratt, but he
was censured by President Brigham Young for teaching it:

Some men seem as if they could learn so much and no more. They appear to
be bounded in their capacity for acquiring knowledge, as Brother Orson
Pratt has in theory bounded the capacity of God. According to his theory,
God can progress no further in knowledge and power; but the God that I
serve is progressing eternally, and so are his children; they will
increase to all eternity if they are faithful. (JD 11:286)

The reference Brigham was speaking about came from Orson Pratt's book called
The Seer published in Washington D.C. in 1852. Pratt wrote:

Then we shall be perfect as our Father in Heaven is perfect--(Math. 5:48)
then shall we be pure as He is pure, and holy as He is holy: then shall
we know as we are known, and see as we are seen: then shall we be heirs
of God, and joint heirs with Christ in the inheritance of all things:
then shall knowledge in part be done away, and we shall know in full:
then there will be no knowledge, or truth, or wisdom in the heights above
or in the depths beneath, or in the Heavens, or in the Heaven of Heavens,
or in the immensity of space, or in the eternal ages of duration, but
what we shall comprehend and know; then there will be no Being or Beings
in existence that will know one particle more than what we know: then our
knowledge, and wisdom, and power, will be infinite; and cannot, from
thenceforth, be increased or expanded in the least degree; then we shall
be Gods, because all the fulness of God will dwell within us.

96. It has been most generally believed that the Saints will progress in
knowledge to all eternity: But when they become one with the Father and
Son, and receive a fulness of their glory, that will be the end of all
progression in knowledge, because there will be nothing more to be
learned. The Father and the Son do not progress in knowledge and wisdom,
because they already know all things past, present, and to come. All that
become like the Father and Son will know as much as they do, and
consequently will learn no more. The Father and Son, and all who are like
them and one with them, already know as much as any Beings in existence
know, or ever can know. (p. 117)

However, according to the scriptures, those who become exalted and become as
Gods still continue to progress in knowledge and wisdom. The Prophet Joseph
explained that when men become gods, they receive a Urim and Thummim so that
things pertaining to a higher order of kingdoms will be made known to them.
Therefore, as man progresses in power and dominion, he receives more knowledge
pertaining to these higher orders of kingdoms.

[6] The place where God resides is a great Urim and Thummim. This earth, in
its sanctified and immortal state, will be made like unto crystal and
will be a Urim and Thummim to the inhabitants who dwell thereon, whereby
all things pertaining to an inferior kingdom, or all kingdoms of a lower
order, will be manifest to those who dwell on it; and this earth will be
Christ's.

Then the white stone mentioned in Revelation 2:17, will become a Urim and
Thummim to each individual who receives one, whereby things pertaining to
a higher order of kingdoms will be made known; and a white stone is given
to each of those who come into the celestial kingdom, whereon is a new
name written, which no man knoweth save he that receiveth it. The new
name is the key word. (Doc. & Cov. 130:8-11)

Brigham Young, in trying to prevent this heresy from getting established in
the Church, wrote a letter to Orson Pratt in 1853, telling him that certain
points of doctrine in The Seer "are not sound doctrine, and will not be so
received by the Saints." When Pratt returned to Salt Lake City in 1854,
President Young confronted him concerning this and other false doctrines. This
led to a conflict on doctrinal issues for many years between the two. (See
Dialogue, Vol. 8, No. 2.) It was then that Young told Pratt that his
interpretation of the omniscience of God--

...was a false doctrine and not true. That there never will be a time to
all eternity when all the Gods of Eternity will cease advancing in power,
knowledge, experience and glory, for if this was the case, eternity would
cease to be and the glory of God would come to an end, but all of
celestial beings will continue to advance in knowledge and power worlds
without end. (Wilford Woodruff Journal, Sept 17, 1854)

Unfortunately, Pratt's writings and sermons on this subject have been the
seeds of thought and belief for both contemporary and present-day Mormons. For
example, Orson Pratt was a close friend and companion apostle to Joseph F.
Smith. Both labored together many times, and on one occasion were companions
on a special mission to the Eastern States; (CHC 5:532) It was probably during
these periods that Orson taught Joseph F. his theory of a God's fullness of
knowledge, because he, too, began to believe and teach it. Yet in spite of all
the disagreement and clash between Orson Pratt and Brigham Young over this
doctrine, it did not change the opinion of Pratt or Joseph F. Smith. A year
after the death of Brigham Young, Joseph F. was still saying that "...our joy
cannot be full unless we obtain a fullness of knowledge." (JD 19:262)

As late as 1880 Orson Pratt was also still hinting that--

In the celestial glory they [men] are made equal in oneness, in power, in
knowledge, and in all perfections.... [He later continued] They have a
fulness of happiness, a fulness of power, and a fulness of intelligence,
light and truth.... (See JD 21:256-263.)

So, it seems evident that the writings or teachings of Orson Pratt influenced
the beliefs of Joseph F. Smith, who in turn taught it to his son, Joseph
Fielding Smith, who also taught it and published it in his books on Doctrines
of Salvation. Under the subtitle "Exalted Beings Eventually [7] Will Know All
Things", Joseph Fielding Smith said:

I realize that it must eventually come to pass in the case of those who
gain the exaltation and become sons of God, that they must, in the
eternities, reach the time when they will know all things. (Doc. of Sal.
1:291)

Then in the second volume, he continues:

Our Father in heaven is infinite; he is perfect; he possesses all
knowledge and wisdom. (Doc. of Sal. 2:35)

The Preface to these books was written by you and begins with, "Joseph
Fielding Smith is the leading gospel scholar and the greatest doctrinal
teacher of this generation." It is understandable then that you have followed
so closely to this theory promoted originally in the Church by Orson Pratt.

For many years you have declared that God is "all-powerful, all-knowing,"
"omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient", and that "He is not a progressive
being in the sense that liberal religionists profess to believe." Speaking of
the Godhead, you declared that "each has the fulness of truth, knowledge,
charity, power," etc. (Mormon Doctrine, p. 319) You also wrote that:

Exalted persons gain the fulness of the Father; they have all power, all
knowledge, and all wisdom; they gain a fulness of truth, becoming one
with the Father.

Those who gain exaltation, having thus enjoyed the fulness of eternal
progression, become like God. It should be realized that God is not
progressing in knowledge, truth, virtue, wisdom, or any of the attributes
of godliness. He has already gained these things in their fulness.
(Mormon Doctrine, p. 238)

You have advanced these theories as Mormon doctrine, in a book by the same
name, but President Young did not agree with you. And knowing the difference
between heresy and doctrine is important because, as you say, "There is no
salvation in believing a false doctrine."

But to conclude with the teachings of President Brigham Young, he made this
clear and beautiful explanation:

Suppose we say there was once a beginning to all things, then we must
conclude there will undoubtedly be an end. Can eternity be circumscribed?
If it can, there is an end of all wisdom, knowledge, power, and
glory--all will sink into eternal annihilation.

What is life to you and me? It is the utmost extent of our desires. Do
you wish to increase, to continue? Do you wish to possess kingdoms and
thrones, principalities and powers; to exist, and continue to exist; to
grow in understanding, in wisdom, in knowledge, in power, and in glory
throughout an endless duration? Why, yes, is the reply natural to every
heart that has been warmed with the life-giving influences of the Holy
Ghost. (JD 1:353)

[8] I hope that your heart "has been warmed with the life-giving influences of
the Holy Ghost" and can now better understand this doctrine advocated by
Brigham Young. And I make an appeal that you reconsider his teachings as the
utterances of the second president of the Church, a man tutored by Joseph
Smith and holy angels--and not the mutterings from an ant in some swamp!

I must agree with you that "there is no salvation in believing a false
doctrine", but if you believe Brigham Young was teaching false doctrine, and
the Protestant churches are correct in that doctrine, then what basis have we
for believing any of the presidents of the Church?

In the beginning of your talk, you said that you were about to "speak on some
matters that some would consider to be controversial. They ought not to be."
Certain doctrines taught in the early days of the Church have become
controversial because they have been changed recently. I agree with you that
they ought not to be made controversial because of these modern changes.

In addition to your Seven Deadly Heresies, we should add an eighth, which
would be "Changing Doctrines." In fact, we should make that the First Great
Heresy; and if we could get everyone convinced of that, then there wouldn't be
any other heresies. It was President Kimball in our last conference who said
that these principles are "flexible". In the early days of Christianity it was
called "apostasy" to change principles, doctrines, and ordinances; but in the
days of the Modern Mormons, it is called "revelation" and "flexibility."

Webster's Dictionary says that heresy is "a belief opposed to the accepted
doctrine of the Church." My question now is, did heresies gradually work their
way into the Church, contradicting the early teachings--or did the Church
begin with heresies and now the leaders are trying to get them all corrected?
The Latter-day Saints should be told which is Mormon doctrine and which is
heresy.

Sincerely,

Ogden Kraut

OWK/abw

P.S. Your Heresy No. 6, stating that Adam is not our Father and God, is also
worthy of comment; however, since Elder Mark E. Petersen devoted his last
conference talk to this subject and has written a book regarding Adam, I have
decided to write a letter to him also. I will send you a copy soon.

[2EstablishZion]

I do not believe in reincarnation. I have been taught a concept from an active committed member of the church who is my brother in law and who has held many high church callings.It is the possibility of "rounds." Here is just a summary sketch of what I mean. We are born. We live our life. We die. Christ returns to earth and ushers in the 1,000 year millennial time. At the end of that time there is the final war, (Gog, Magog) Then the son,(Jesus Christ) says to the Father, (God) "It is finished." All temple work will be complete for every human being that has ever been born on the planet. This is the time for final judgement and assigninments made to kingdoms. Many will be content to where they are placed. Some will not. There may be an opportunity to do it all again. Not going back to Earth. As "Earth" as we know it now is no longer the same. It has received its glory and now acts as the celestial kingdom. But there are worlds without number. And those worlds are going through the same process that we have gone through on Earth. So maybe I will choose to go to another "earth life" to progress further. If you really think about it. Are you anywhere near becoming a God? if we will live eternally and forever what will we be doing? I personally believe it is not out of the realm of possibility that we have already been through many rounds and will have many more to go. That could explain why everyone born on this earth is at a different level of progression. I know I may sound crazy to some but for others I just may resonate something to think about. It's a lot to take in but I just focus on the life I am living now and doing the best that I can and should do here. Everything else will fall into place as it should.

This matches my current understanding as well.

[Matchmaker]

Somewhere I read that if we are worthy we will someday be granted the desires of our hearts, as long as they are righteous desires.

One of the desires of my heart is to be given the opportunity to correct some very serious mistakes that were made by me in my past- not just to repent of them or make amends for them, but to completely wipe them out, if that were even possible. These sins seriously hurt myself and others, and offended the Lord.

If the Lord ever gave me the opportunity to go back in time and relive a portion of my life again with the knowledge I have now so that I could undo the wrong I have done, believe me, I would take it, even if it meant giving up living in Paradise for another 50 years or so.

[Jesef]

Multiple mortal probations/lives actually makes a lot more sense to me than a one-shot/life/probation per creation or world or eternity. It also makes sense of why we forget everything and why we make so very little relative progress in our personalities/character in one lifetime. Atonement seems to figure into the whole balancing of karma equation. It doesn't make sense that the Atonement by itself turns imperfect people/characters/souls into perfect gods - like it magically grants you the perfect character. I believe it can help make you clean, heal you, give you strength and encouragement, but that you still have to do the work of changing and growing. If you struggle with impatience, as a character weakness, the Atonement doesn't make choices for you and give you patience for free. It might help remove some of the blocks so as to make it achievable, etc. Grace doesn't do the work of change for us. It doesn't climb the mountain for us or magically transport us to the top. Look around, can you imagine ultimate power in the hands of so many immature, tantruming children or adults? You have to earn it. Don't get me wrong, I think the Divine Plan/Program is perfect - and it can clean us up and get us back to Heaven - but it doesn't do the learning and growing for us, we have to choose, we have agency for that. It's symbolized by everything we learn and achieve down here too. I think multiple mortal lives is symbolized pretty well by each day of our lives, too - we are born each day when we wake up and die each day when we go to sleep. We don't just have one day to do it all, but thousands.

[Catherine]

Multiple mortal probations/lives actually makes a lot more sense to me than a one-shot/life/probation per creation or world or eternity. It also makes sense of why we forget everything and why we make so very little relative progress in our personalities/character in one lifetime. Atonement seems to figure into the whole balancing of karma equation. It doesn't make sense that the Atonement by itself turns imperfect people/characters/souls into perfect gods - like it magically grants you the perfect character. I believe it can help make you clean, heal you, give you strength and encouragement, but that you still have to do the work of changing and growing. If you struggle with impatience, as a character weakness, the Atonement doesn't make choices for you and give you patience for free. It might help remove some of the blocks so as to make it achievable, etc. Grace doesn't do the work of change for us. It doesn't climb the mountain for us or magically transport us to the top. Look around, can you imagine ultimate power in the hands of so many immature, tantruming children or adults? You have to earn it. Don't get me wrong, I think the Divine Plan/Program is perfect - and it can clean us up and get us back to Heaven - but it doesn't do the learning and growing for us, we have to choose, we have agency for that. It's symbolized by everything we learn and achieve down here too. I think multiple mortal lives is symbolized pretty well by each day of our lives, too - we are born each day when we wake up and die each day when we go to sleep. We don't just have one day to do it all, but thousands.

Really beautifully said. Thank you.

[freedomforall]

P.S. Your Heresy No. 6, stating that Adam is not our Father and God, is also
worthy of comment; however, since Elder Mark E. Petersen devoted his last
conference talk to this subject and has written a book regarding Adam, I have
decided to write a letter to him also. I will send you a copy soon.

Not one bit of it of the posted info is from canonized scripture, although I lean toward that which PPP said...this is closer to scripture than anything else.

Stephen E. Robinson, in an email to me said this:

“If God knows everything (2 Nephi 9:20, Moses 1:6, D&C 38:2), that must include any mistakes he may have made as a mortal being. And if we are exalted and become as God now is, we must also know all things—including our own mortal history, complete with our former sins. Memory is eternal; guilt is not. If there is anything we remain ignorant of in eternity, we are not as God is, and have not been exalted”.

And here are canonized scriptures to back it up.

2 Nephi 9:20
20 O how great the holiness of our God! For he knoweth all things, and there is not anything save he knows it.

Alma 26:35
35 Now have we not reason to rejoice? Yea, I say unto you, there never were men that had so great reason to rejoice as we, since the world began; yea, and my joy is carried away, even unto boasting in my God; for he has all power, all wisdom, and all understanding; he comprehendeth all things, and he is a merciful Being, even unto salvation, to those who will repent and believe on his name.

D&C 38:2 (1–2)
1 Thus saith the Lord your God, even Jesus Christ, the Great I Am, Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the same which looked upon the wide expanse of eternity, and all the seraphic hosts of heaven, before the world was made;
2 The same which knoweth all things, for all things are present before mine eyes;

Moses 1:6
6 And I have a work for thee, Moses, my son; and thou art in the similitude of mine Only Begotten; and mine Only Begotten is and shall be the Savior, for he is full of grace and truth; but there is no God beside me, and all things are present with me, for I know them all.

1 Ne. 9:6
6 But the Lord knoweth all things from the beginning; wherefore, he prepareth a way to accomplish all his works among the children of men; for behold, he hath all power unto the fulfilling of all his words. And thus it is. Amen.

If God were still progressing and learning he would not be able to claim knowing all things.

[Catherine]

I believe that God has fully progressed and knows all things. I believe we human beings have eons of time to get to that place. The idea of rounds makes complete and logical sense to me. Why was I born in the covenant while my fellow brother or sister in Christ was born in for instance the ghetto of Harlem, or a third world country? Is it because I had earned it? Or is it because I only agreed to take it easy on this round? I think this concept is fascinating and logical. I am in contact with a person who had their Baptism of Fire two years ago and who was shown prior rounds as well as future rounds. He hasn't given details and I don't ask because it's not my place and it's very sacred. It's not because I don't want to though;) There are scriptures that talk about rounds. I will ask my bro in law to send them to me and I will forward them on here.

[Matchmaker]

It took me hours to read this thread in its entirety, all the way back to 2011. I'm glad I took the time. We have some very deep thinkers on this forum. I have a question regarding my understanding of some of the things put forth in this threat:

If Joseph Smith was a fourth estate being whose calling and election was made sure before he even came here during this dispensation, are members of the LDS Church who have gone through the temple and made covenants to HF and are given the responsibility to bring the gospel to others also fourth estate beings?

[Kingdom of ZION]

It took me hours to read this thread in its entirety, all the way back to 2011. I'm glad I took the time. We have some very deep thinkers on this forum. I have a question regarding my understanding of some of the things put forth in this threat:

If Joseph Smith was a fourth estate being whose calling and election was made sure before he even came here during this dispensation, are members of the LDS Church who have gone through the temple and made covenants to HF and are given the responsibility to bring the gospel to others also fourth estate beings?

The short answer is, Many Are!

There are millions of first world or creation Baby Fourth Estate Beings. Joseph Smith in his D&C 101 parable, called them 'Young Men', with the other two levels of Fourth Estate Beings being 'Middle Age Men', and 'Old Men'. There is 144,000 male second world or creation Junior Fourth Estate Beings. There is five male Senior Fourth Estate Beings. As for women, their are 1000 times as many of them as to men!

So out of 10 million LDS, how many might be Fourth Estate Beings? Well, with the ratio of Fourth Estate Beings to Second Estate Beings being 1/40 - 200 million verses 7-8 billion, or 1 in 40 too as high as 1 in32. In knowing that Fourth Estates Beings are more closer drawn to the light (members of Mormonism in general), they may be as high as twice as many per capita, being 1 in 16 to as many as 1 in 8. The problem we have here is as they dumb down the doctrines of the kingdom so even the weakest of those who could be called a Saint, can bear it, the Fourth Estate Beings are leaving the Church in droves.

Also, they are much more concentrated in places where Yesrael dwells, like Europe and the USA. This can make it seem like there are even more of them here then you should find in the world generally.

Hope my attempt to answer your sincere question here... Did!

Shalom

(Edited to reflect the more accurate number ratio)

[Adonai]

Some corrections must be made, there is also what is known as Orders, only those of the Highest Order can perform the higher duty's and only the begotten Son can perform the atonement. Those of the Highest Order are not restricted by time and are not under same restrictions as the normal doctrine imply which is correct in that context, one normally has one life then judgement comes at the resurrection, normally a soul is bound by sin to underworlds unless lives a very strict righteous life making all requirements to through intervention of Angels be taken to wait in peace in Abraham's Bosom, which is a dimension separate from hades in which is not same as Millennial but is a paradise in it own light.

Joseph Smith was shown some mystery's but told not to speak of them as it was known many would fall away, Understand mankind is not capable of reaching to Highest Order that the Begotten Son is from, it is not something obtained it is just something they are.

[Adonai]

Adam God doctrine is not the truth, Adam was Michael the Arch Angel he was of a higher Order but he is not the Father of Jesus Christ. Reincarnation as Joseph smith said is a deception of Devil as understood by the children of men, incarnation another means of entering is of a higher Order mystery which the children of men were never meant to understand. Certain souls are of a Higher Order and capable of having entered this sphere more than once they are not bound by the underworld, unless it would serve the Father and that mystery is for another time also. You do not need to focus on such things what mankind need to focus on right now is repentance for all are falling short. Once I am authorized I will reveal what is the main reason people fall to underworlds and what to do to avoid it.

[creator]

Hello Emmanuel/BurningSword, now coming to the forum as "Adonai". Who/what are you claiming to be this time?

Once I am authorized I will reveal..

Falling for the former deceptions again, eh?

[Adonai]

Hello Emmanuel/BurningSword, now coming to the forum as "Adonai". Who/what are you claiming to be this time?

Once I am authorized I will reveal..

Falling for the former deceptions again, eh?

The authorized was talking about you allowing it to be posted.

I would not be so quick to mock and judge, for it is written three times will I come then my judgement is against you. And if this forum was tested in mysterious way are thou to decide such. It is by grace knowing what comes I have returned and it was only because of prompting of spirit. Careful in what you call deceptions.

And if I be false this surely will not happen soon, for I have spoken before that this earth will be shaken and let ye know it is my departure and that my Father has taken note of all things, and those who mocked and judged should be afraid for they must repent lest the wrath come upon them. For in day of my departing and for the righteous shall I give a sign of a great light that shall appear for a moment and vanish bright in it appearance, and it shall come during a great thunderstorm which shall reach from east unto the west. And know that day all things change for earth has fallen and now in grace I have spoken it before hand in hopes that people quickly repent and sincerely do, nevertheless tribulation will come upon them for their actions but if they endure the same shall be saved from the pit.

[freedomforall]

Buckle up, everyone!

[Alaris]

KOZ - I have some questions about this doctrine that you are promoting.

You are quoting Parley P Pratt, where he indicates that there are 4 estates:
1 - premortal
2 - earth life
3 - post earth (spirit world)
4 - resurrection, with a physical body

KoZ: Yes PPP proposed four Estates. I was quoting the definition of the first two to show it was not my own design. I do not except PPP definition of the third and fourth Estates.

But, in your earlier quotes, there are 8 estates...and from what I can understand from your descriptions all but the last 2 of these "estates" is another earth life. Is this a correct view? How do you reconcile the idea of the 4th estate resurrection as described by P.P. Pratt with this doctrine of 8 estates?

KoZ: Actually, it is the First Estate is in a Millennial World from the world before this world. The Second Estate is here. The Third Estate is the Millennium to come. The Fourth Estate is the next three Creations from this world. The Fifth Estate is the Creation after that [6th Creation]. The Sixth Estate is the Creation after that world [7th Creation]. The Seventh Estate is the Creation after that world [8th Creation], only the Great Jehovah rest from all His labors and does not have to come down.

Fourth Estate Beings are not resurrect but inherit that same glory... they are 'Just Men made Perfect'.

As for how many times are we born of women physically with a veil...
Once as a Second Estate.
Three times as a Baby or first world Fourth Estate.
Three times as a Junior or second world Fourth Estate.
Three times as a Senior or third world Fourth Estate.
Two times as a Fifth Estate or Messiah.
Twelve Times, once from each tribe.

The basic doctrine of the LDS church correlates with your quotes from P.P. Pratt in that after this life we are resurrected (with a physical body) and will take our place in a kingdom of glory. This contradicts the idea of multiple "estates" on the (an) earth that you are promoting. I also don't see how once you are resurrected, you would somehow separate the spirit from the body, only to be born into another mortal body. In other words, the two ideas are contradictory...

KoZ: You are not Resurrected but rather defer in hopes of a more perfected resurrection.

Can you please explain this contradiction?

KoZ: It is a false belief that to come forth in the morning of the first resurrection, that it is a resurrection verses a birth or raising from the tomb. What of those who fall at the end when the adversary is loosed... they become sons of Perdition? No... they just remain Terrestrial and go on to sire the Telestial bodies... their resurrection if you wish to call it that [it is a rebirth...]

1st Estate - Pre-existence - Likened unto outer darkness, world without glory - Millennial World from the Creation before [1st Creation]
2nd Estate - Mortal life [once only] - Likened unto a Telestial World - [2ns Creation]
3rd Estate - Millennium - Likened unto a Terrestrial World - [still the same world - 2nd Creation]
4th Estate - Telestial World [come down three times - Likened unto a Celestial World - [3rd Creation] - Baby or Young Man, millions
4th Estate - Telestial World [come down three times - Likened unto a Celestial World - [4rd Creation] - Junior or Middle Age Man, 144,000
4th Estate - Telestial World [come down three times - Likened unto a Celestial World - [5rd Creation] - Senior or Old Man, 4-5
5th Estate - Telestial World [come down three times - [6rd Creation] - Yehoshua
6th Estate - Terrestrial World [come down once in 4-5 Creations - [7th through 10th or 11th Creations] - Adam
7th Estate - Celestial World [enter to no more come out] - No more to go down - [12 - 13 through 37 - 38 Creations] - Great Jehovah
8th Estate - Celestial [the center of the galaxy] - countless Creation - Elohim

Shalom

Thank you for posting this KOZ. Through my own study and prayer I have believed that Premortal Life was a terrestrial state. I would like to start a new thread on this so I don't hijack this one. I believe the terrestrial reality was key to understanding the rebellion.

To comment at the subject of this thread, we LDS believe that we could only progress so much in our Premortal Estate--that we had to come here first. If that's true how did Michael progress so much as to be given charge over an entire telestial world without ever having even lived in one?

D&C teaches that we and God are all independent spheres and always will be. I told my 11 year old son today to pretend he was God and wanted to help us be God's someday. I asked him would he just hand over universes to his children and say, "Here you go!"

"No."

"How would you train your children to be Gods then?"

"I would start small," he said.

Boom. Children understand the truth because it is simple.

We can not be given dominion over a world until we master smaller dominions. Telestial dominions. If you can't run a small company can you run a world?

We have to learn to not just be perfect but to be perfect masters of dominions.

Peter shook Adam's hand. He did not say, "I have not yet attained a body." Peter had a body. I believe Michael did as well.

[freedomforall]

D&C 132:24
24 This is eternal lives—to know the only wise and true God, and Jesus Christ, whom he hath sent. I am he. Receive ye, therefore, my law.

John 17:3
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

D&C 132:30 (30–31)
30 Abraham received promises concerning his seed, and of the fruit of his loins—from whose loins ye are, namely, my servant Joseph—which were to continue so long as they were in the world; and as touching Abraham and his seed, out of the world they should continue; both in the world and out of the world should they continue as innumerable as the stars; or, if ye were to count the sand upon the seashore ye could not number them.
31 This promise is yours also, because ye are of Abraham, and the promise was made unto Abraham; and by this law is the continuation of the works of my Father, wherein he glorifieth himself.

For the life of me I can't see how anyone could conclude these verses relate to a person having many lives after death. Doesn't the term "eternal lives" relate to a multitude of people having received eternal life? So the term eternal lives is plural not singular?

[Alaris]

Freedomforall you may as well not bother attempting to engage me in a gospel discussion aslong as your comments are laced with contention and condescension.

I could say, "For the life of me I can't understand how anyone would think that the Savior could master the flesh only having lived in it once if he learned line upon line precept upon precept as we must," but that would be insulting and contentious and no way to persuade or teach.

I served my mission in Texas and was not able to have a single productive conversation with anyone who brought the spirit of contention into the conversation.

Moreveor pride is not a quality that anyone should sew into their spiritual knowledge or conversations at any point in our eternal progression let alone during a telestial sojourn behind all the veils.

D&C 121 is a great read to learn of the qualities to be espoused by the priesthood. If you decide you would like to discuss with respect the profundities of the gospel I will re-engage you at that point. If however you are one of a seemingly countless number of Internet trolls who are addicted to negativity you will not find your fix here.

[freedomforall]

Freedomforall you may as well not bother attempting to engage me in a gospel discussion aslong as your comments are laced with contention and condescension.

I could say, "For the life of me I can't understand how anyone would think that the Savior could master the flesh only having lived in it once if he learned line upon line precept upon precept as we must," but that would be insulting and contentious and no way to persuade or teach.

I served my mission in Texas and was not able to have a single productive conversation with anyone who brought the spirit of contention into the conversation.

Moreveor pride is not a quality that anyone should sew into their spiritual knowledge or conversations at any point in our eternal progression let alone during a telestial sojourn behind all the veils.

D&C 121 is a great read to learn of the qualities to be espoused by the priesthood. If you decide you would like to discuss with respect the profundities of the gospel I will re-engage you at that point. If however you are one of a seemingly countless number of Internet trolls who are addicted to negativity you will not find your fix here.

For the life of me I can't see how anyone could think that Jesus did not master the flesh within one go around on earth. He learned obedience by all the things he suffered. He was perfect...had not one sin against him being sinless. He set the perfect example for us to emulate. He also made it possible for us to be perfect...in Him. See Moroni 10:32:33

The Book of Mormon teaches that we only have one life, one probation, one go around.

BTW, where in my post did I address you? Sounds like you fly off the handle even when someone posts information and not addressing anyone, which in my book wasn't insulting anyone. I merely spoke the truth.

If you want to know a fraction of what I know and believe there are thousands of posts to research having my username on them.
Is there anything in scripture about calling someone a troll? We have had plenty of trolls on this forum, some with less than 100 posts. How did you learn the attributes of a troll, anyway?

[Alaris]

D&C 93:
12 And I, John, saw that he received not of the fulness at the first, but received grace for grace;

13 And he received not of the fulness at first, but continued from grace to grace, until he received a fulness;

14 And thus he was called the Son of God, because he received not of the fulness at the first.

What does it mean to receive grace for grace? What about grace to grace? What is grace? Who provides grace? He that hath ears to hear let him hear.

[Elguapo4538]

It makes sense about the Lord's elect. The scriptures say something to the effect of "if it were possible, even mine elect would be deceived..." In this context I can understand why the "elect" cannot be deceived. So you are saying that if a person is considered "elect" they have already lived in their second estate, and passed their mortal probation. Do these people know their status, or will they eventually understand these things(in this life)? Also what does [booth] mean?

The men [Forth Estate Beings] are ALL fast asleep. and they are commanded to 'Awake and Arise!" What is it to Awake and Arise? It is to remember who you were before this world and why you were sent here! Some currently remember... When it is time, the 144,000 will all awaken!

I stumbled on this thread and I'm excited to ask a few questions-
Why does it take a good woman for a man to awake and arise?
How does a man awake and arise?

[Kingdom of ZION]

I stumbled on this thread and I'm excited to ask a few questions-
Why does it take a good woman for a man to awake and arise?
How does a man awake and arise?

Actually a good woman or women. And the answer is because they are born spiritually awake, though they wear a veil and cannot see clearly, yet they are awake and can see though the veil which obscures their sight some. The following of a man (as a help meet), lifting him up and spiritually awaking him, he can then see clearly and passes through the veil first. In turn he receives, and then takes his wife or wives through the veil next.

That is the pattern revealed in the Temple. I have experienced this firsthand had how the women awaken the man and helps him arise. Joseph Smith knew the path and was very inspired to then teach us these things through the Temple Endowment allegory.

I hope this helps answer your question, Shalom, Elguapo

I have posted some papers that address this and similar doctrinal principles here:
https://independent.academia.edu/Kingdom_of_ZION