The Doctrine of Eternal Lives...

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Kingdom of ZION
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Re: The Doctrine of Eternal Lives...

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sandhollow@aol.com wrote:Please refresh - who is Yesrael again?
Israel in English... What I was referring to is the Kingdom of Yesrael. That would eventually include the lost 10 Tribes [actually 9 1/2 tribes as the Tribe of Benjamin split between the two kingdoms] and the kingdom of Judah.

Shalom

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Matthew.B
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Re: The Doctrine of Eternal Lives...

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KoZ-

Wrote a reply to your PM yesterday, and again today. The PM system is messing up for me... Trying to get it resolved.

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SpeedRacer
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Re: The Doctrine of Eternal Lives...

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Yes you are understanding perfectly... in the Third Estate [booth], the Millennium, you receive the Holy Anointing to become a King and a Priest, it is 'The CALLING'. In the Forth Estate [booth] you receive for the first time real Priesthood, Melchizedek Priesthood. In the 1st, 2nd, and 3th Estates you only had a Temporal Priesthood... You were a Deacon, Teacher and then a Priest. As a Fourth Estate Being you have arrived to the Celestial realm and are called 'Mine Elect' [are born in heaven and named for the first time]. You will receive three calling in the priesthood, an Elder in the first world, a Seventy or gatherer in the second world [and their numbers are counted], and then a High Priest and Patriarch in the third world. Now having received your Calling and Election, if you go on...

When one becomes a Fifth Estate Being [booth] a Messiah, He must descend below all things, naked before the world as it were. He becomes a Priest unto the Most High; the great High Priest [Melchizedek]. As one becomes a Sixth Estate Being [booth], an Adam, He is told He is Lord of the Earth and becomes a King unto the Most High. Now as a Great Jehovah, a Seventh Estate Being [booth], He rest from all His labors [sits on a throne], and is Anointed a King and a Priest unto the Most High having become such.

It is written, those who have their Calling and Election and come down into this world, save the committing of the unpardonable sin [the shedding of innocent blood while denying the HG], shall not fall [though they commit all manner of sins]... for not one of Mine elect shall be lost [those that were given Him (the Messiah)]!
I had to go back over this. KoZ had done so much research that it deserved a second look.

If we equated estate to current state, including births, I think I would be on board.

Let's throw out our current ordering of 1st estate being spirit, 2nd mortality, and start with birth in mortality as estate 1. Just for explanation.

Estate 1 - Mortal birth (First birth of Water, Spirit and Blood).
Estate 2 - Baptized by water (Born of Water)
- Born of the Spirit should happen between estate 2 and Estate 5 if you are going to follow KoZ's chart, don't quote me.
- Born of the Blood should also, but many of these estates can be promised before they are fulfilled.
Estate 3 - Get the Preparatory Priesthood
Estate 4 - Get the Melchizedek Priesthood - You have 3 offices, and we can change world to quorum. 70 has been changed over time, but still exists between Elder and High-Priest. Patriarch and Apostle are offices, but are not common.
Estate 5 - Washed and Anointed - Christ or Messiah, literally means Annointed.
Estate 6 - Endowed - You should consider yourself as Adam.
Estate 7 - Sealed, and Sealed up. You have all the blessings you need to inherit such rest and offices.

As for being born 3 times in one creation. We must take the first birth, when you were born into mortality, as creation, and then take the Water, Spirit and Blood as the 3 births within one creation.

I think this gets us closer to revealed doctrine. And I don't think I revealed anything that is forbidden.

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SpeedRacer
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Re: The Doctrine of Eternal Lives...

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Can anyone pitch in on the dispensations?

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Kingdom of ZION
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Re: The Doctrine of Eternal Lives...

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Here is the definition established by PP Pratt:

This individual, spiritual body, was begotten by the Heavenly Father, in
His own likeness and image, and by the laws of procreation.
It was born and matured in the heavenly mansions, trained in the school
of love in the family circle, and amid the most tender embraces of parental
and fraternal affection.
In this primeval probation, in its heavenly home, it lived and moved as a
free and rational intelligence, acting upon its own agency, and, like all
intelligence, independent in its own sphere. It was placed under certain laws
and was responsible to its great Patriarchal Head.
This has been called a "first estate." And it is intimated that of the
spirits thus placed upon their agency, one-third failed to keep their first
estate, and were thrust down and reserved in chains of darkness, for future
judgment. As these are not permitted to multiply their species, or to move
forward in the scale of progressive being, while, in this state of bondage and
condemnation, we will trace them no further, as their final destiny is not
revealed to mortals.
The spirits which kept their first estate, were permitted to descend
below, and to obtain tabernacles of flesh in the rudimental existence in [53]
which we find them in our present world, and which we will call a second
estate.
In passing the veil which separates the first and second estates, man
becomes unconscious, and on awakening in his second estate, a veil is wisely
thrown over all the past.
In his mortal tabernacle he remembers not the scenes, the endearing
associations, of his first primeval childhood in the heavenly mansions. He
therefore commences anew in the lessons of experience, in order to start on a
level with the new born tabernacle, and to redevelop his intellectual
faculties in a progressive series, which keep pace with the development of the
organs and faculties of the outward tabernacle.
During his progress in the flesh, the Holy Spirit may gradually awaken
his faculties; and in a dream or vision, or by the spirit of prophecy, reveal,
or rather awaken the memory to a partial vision, or to a dim and half defined
recollection of the intelligence of past. He sees in part, and he knows in
part; but never while tabernacled in mortal flesh will he fully awaken to the
intelligence of his former estate. It surpasses his comprehension, is
unspeakable and even unlawful to be uttered.
Having kept his second estate and filled the measure of his
responsibilities in the flesh, he passes the veil of death, and enters a third
estate, or probationary sphere. This is called the [54] world of spirits,
which will be treated on more fully under its appropriate head.
Filling the measure of his responsibilities in the world of spirits, he
passes by means of the resurrection of the body, into his fourth estate, or
sphere of human existence. In this sphere he finds himself clothed upon with
an eternal body of flesh and bones, with every sense and every organ restored
and adapted to their proper use.
He is thus prepared with organs and faculties adapted to the possession
and enjoyment of every element of the physical and spiritual worlds, which can
gratify the senses, or conduce to the happiness of intelligences. He
associates, converses, loves, thinks, acts, moves, hears, tastes, smells,
eats, drinks and possesses.
In short, all the elements necessary to his happiness, being purified,
exalted and adapted to the sphere in which he exists, are placed within his
lawful reach, and made subservient to his use.
KEY TO THE SCIENCE OF THEOLOGY BY PARLEY P. PRATT, p.53-54

dewajack
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Re: The Doctrine of Eternal Lives...

Post by dewajack »

Koz, thanks for sharing that. Do you have any more quotes on multiple estates?

jdtech
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Re: The Doctrine of Eternal Lives...

Post by jdtech »

KOZ - I have some questions about this doctrine that you are promoting.

You are quoting Parley P Pratt, where he indicates that there are 4 estates:
1 - premortal
2 - earth life
3 - post earth (spirit world)
4 - resurrection, with a physical body

But, in your earlier quotes, there are 8 estates...and from what I can understand from your descriptions all but the last 2 of these "estates" is another earth life. Is this a correct view? How do you reconcile the idea of the 4th estate resurrection as described by P.P. Pratt with this doctrine of 8 estates?

The basic doctrine of the LDS church correlates with your quotes from P.P. Pratt in that after this life we are resurrected (with a physical body) and will take our place in a kingdom of glory. This contradicts the idea of multiple "estates" on the (an) earth that you are promoting. I also don't see how once you are resurrected, you would somehow separate the spirit from the body, only to be born into another mortal body. In other words, the two ideas are contradictory...

Can you please explain this contradiction?
Kingdom of ZION wrote: 1st Estate - Pre-existence - Likened unto outer darkness, world without glory - Millennial World from the Creation before [1st Creation]
2nd Estate - Mortal life [once only] - Likened unto a Telestial World - [2ns Creation]
3rd Estate - Millennium - Likened unto a Terrestrial World - [still the same world - 2nd Creation]
4th Estate - Telestial World [come down three times - Likened unto a Celestial World - [3rd Creation] - Baby or Young Man, millions
4th Estate - Telestial World [come down three times - Likened unto a Celestial World - [4rd Creation] - Junior or Middle Age Man, 144,000
4th Estate - Telestial World [come down three times - Likened unto a Celestial World - [5rd Creation] - Senior or Old Man, 4-5
5th Estate - Telestial World [come down three times - [6rd Creation] - Yehoshua
6th Estate - Terrestrial World [come down once in 4-5 Creations - [7th through 10th or 11th Creations] - Adam
7th Estate - Celestial World [enter to no more come out] - No more to go down - [12 - 13 through 37 - 38 Creations] - Great Jehovah
8th Estate - Celestial [the center of the galaxy] - countless Creation - Elohim

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Kingdom of ZION
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Re: The Doctrine of Eternal Lives...

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jdtech wrote:KOZ - I have some questions about this doctrine that you are promoting.

You are quoting Parley P Pratt, where he indicates that there are 4 estates:
1 - premortal
2 - earth life
3 - post earth (spirit world)
4 - resurrection, with a physical body

KoZ: Yes PPP proposed four Estates. I was quoting the definition of the first two to show it was not my own design. I do not except PPP definition of the third and fourth Estates.

But, in your earlier quotes, there are 8 estates...and from what I can understand from your descriptions all but the last 2 of these "estates" is another earth life. Is this a correct view? How do you reconcile the idea of the 4th estate resurrection as described by P.P. Pratt with this doctrine of 8 estates?

KoZ: Actually, it is the First Estate is in a Millennial World from the world before this world. The Second Estate is here. The Third Estate is the Millennium to come. The Fourth Estate is the next three Creations from this world. The Fifth Estate is the Creation after that [6th Creation]. The Sixth Estate is the Creation after that world [7th Creation]. The Seventh Estate is the Creation after that world [8th Creation], only the Great Jehovah rest from all His labors and does not have to come down.

Fourth Estate Beings are not resurrect but inherit that same glory... they are 'Just Men made Perfect'.

As for how many times are we born of women physically with a veil...
Once as a Second Estate.
Three times as a Baby or first world Fourth Estate.
Three times as a Junior or second world Fourth Estate.
Three times as a Senior or third world Fourth Estate.
Two times as a Fifth Estate or Messiah.
Twelve Times, once from each tribe.


The basic doctrine of the LDS church correlates with your quotes from P.P. Pratt in that after this life we are resurrected (with a physical body) and will take our place in a kingdom of glory. This contradicts the idea of multiple "estates" on the (an) earth that you are promoting. I also don't see how once you are resurrected, you would somehow separate the spirit from the body, only to be born into another mortal body. In other words, the two ideas are contradictory...

KoZ: You are not Resurrected but rather defer in hopes of a more perfected resurrection.

Can you please explain this contradiction?

KoZ: It is a false belief that to come forth in the morning of the first resurrection, that it is a resurrection verses a birth or raising from the tomb. What of those who fall at the end when the adversary is loosed... they become sons of Perdition? No... they just remain Terrestrial and go on to sire the Telestial bodies... their resurrection if you wish to call it that [it is a rebirth...]
Kingdom of ZION wrote: 1st Estate - Pre-existence - Likened unto outer darkness, world without glory - Millennial World from the Creation before [1st Creation]
2nd Estate - Mortal life [once only] - Likened unto a Telestial World - [2ns Creation]
3rd Estate - Millennium - Likened unto a Terrestrial World - [still the same world - 2nd Creation]
4th Estate - Telestial World [come down three times - Likened unto a Celestial World - [3rd Creation] - Baby or Young Man, millions
4th Estate - Telestial World [come down three times - Likened unto a Celestial World - [4rd Creation] - Junior or Middle Age Man, 144,000
4th Estate - Telestial World [come down three times - Likened unto a Celestial World - [5rd Creation] - Senior or Old Man, 4-5
5th Estate - Telestial World [come down three times - [6rd Creation] - Yehoshua
6th Estate - Terrestrial World [come down once in 4-5 Creations - [7th through 10th or 11th Creations] - Adam
7th Estate - Celestial World [enter to no more come out] - No more to go down - [12 - 13 through 37 - 38 Creations] - Great Jehovah
8th Estate - Celestial [the center of the galaxy] - countless Creation - Elohim
Shalom

Paris
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Re: The Doctrine of Eternal Lives...

Post by Paris »

This topic came easy for me. After feeling intense familiarity with locations and objects of a past era. I had a dream where I saw a scene of a past life. It was so vivid that I began to wonder if there was anything to it. Then came a name. A websearch verified the name and location matched places where I had intense feelings.

I did more research/reflection and found myself realizing that I did not need convincing, because I already believed the truths that I was re-discovering. It was more like remembering/recognizing.

Then I came across the book, DoEL and some other written explanations. Finally I had enough. I prayed about what I had learned. I petitioned the Lord to give me a stupor of thought. Suddenly I had a burst 0f.....Light?....Intelligence?....Insight?....Assurance?...Knowledge?
not quite sure which word captures the transfer of absolute knowledge to me. I was ready for the answer, and It came.

I will not pretend that I don't know what this book, Doctrine of Eternal Lives, is about. Here it is in plain English: We live, we die, we evaluate, we progress, we live again to learn new things. This cycle repeats until we gain all truth. It is the only way we can have the experiences necessary to achieve a fullness of Joy (Exaltation).

If you are ready for this level of knowledge, then you may already know this is true. Reliance on the testimonies of others can really inhibit progress. Each must develop his or her own. Be ready to drop traditional error. Adopt truth where ever it is found. Seek the Guidance of the Holy Spirit.

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Bryan LJ
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Re: The Doctrine of Eternal Lives...

Post by Bryan LJ »

I am so glad that someone bumped this thread! I know what I'll be reading over the next couple of days!

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AussieOi
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That is a MASSIVE bump.
Welcome

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Simon
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Re: The Doctrine of Eternal Lives...

Post by Simon »

I think the great difficulty is that no matter what view someone has on the topic, there are contradictive views that both seem to have been confirmed by inspiration from above. Who has received an "real" answer, and who has just answered his own prayers ?

If you look at humankind, this pattern has always been there.. There are so many doctrines out there that have all come about in an "inspirational" way that it is no wonder thousands of people believe in thousand of different things that all appear to be credible and right. Even looking at LDSFF you will see tons of discussions where people say "I have prayed and know this is true", but still they contradict in their essential believes.

Something I always loved about the Book of Mormon is to see how even within a couple of hundret years, the prophets could still rely upon another. Mormon knew about Nephi, his teachings and confirmed those teachings almoust 1000 years later.. When you consider the Jaredites it is even a greater timesframe that seperated them, and still they were "one" in their understanding. Why can't we do it the same way today? Why do we lack such "oneness" ? Why is our understanding of truth so different in this world ? Why is it so difficult even within church ?

The doctrine of eternal lives is a doctrine that I would love to understand with all it's aspects, but even more I would love to understand what we can do to find such "oneness" in understanding truth as the prophets in the Book of Mormon did. I am sure this is one of the major reasons why so many mircales have happened within the scriptures, and it would be such a beatiful thing to see such miracles happen today also.

No matter what people teach, I think the doctrine of eternal lives can only be understood by being one with Christ, and by having it revealed on a personal level. Even if someone explains certain aspects of that doctrine, it will not be enough to truely grasp it's entire meaning.

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Kingdom of ZION
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Simon wrote:I think the great difficulty is that no matter what view someone has on the topic, there are contradictive views that both seem to have been confirmed by inspiration from above. Who has received an "real" answer, and who has just answered his own prayers ?

If you look at humankind, this pattern has always been there.. There are so many doctrines out there that have all come about in an "inspirational" way that it is no wonder thousands of people believe in thousand of different things that all appear to be credible and right. Even looking at LDSFF you will see tons of discussions where people say "I have prayed and know this is true", but still they contradict in their essential believes.

Something I always loved about the Book of Mormon is to see how even within a couple of hundret years, the prophets could still rely upon another. Mormon knew about Nephi, his teachings and confirmed those teachings almoust 1000 years later.. When you consider the Jaredites it is even a greater timesframe that seperated them, and still they were "one" in their understanding. Why can't we do it the same way today? Why do we lack such "oneness" ? Why is our understanding of truth so different in this world ? Why is it so difficult even within church ?

The doctrine of eternal lives is a doctrine that I would love to understand with all it's aspects, but even more I would love to understand what we can do to find such "oneness" in understanding truth as the prophets in the Book of Mormon did. I am sure this is one of the major reasons why so many mircales have happened within the scriptures, and it would be such a beatiful thing to see such miracles happen today also.

No matter what people teach, I think the doctrine of eternal lives can only be understood by being one with Christ, and by having it revealed on a personal level. Even if someone explains certain aspects of that doctrine, it will not be enough to truely grasp it's entire meaning.
Aman.

Here is the problem Simon... A man prays, 'Is there a G_d', and Father looks not so closely to the words of the question but to see the intent of your heart, and if it will bless or curse him, will it move him forwards or backwards in the answer He gives. Because not all questions are worded equally. The man might be asking in connection to a false or pagan religion, and the answer in the affirmative could led that man down the wrong path and do more harm then good.

Lets say there is 2 men, and thy both asks in connection with 'Is there a G_d, is the Catholic Church the True Church of the Son of G_d? To the first man, the Father knowing it will move the man forward, He replies Yes. To the second man, Father knowing he will eventually repent sufficiently on his own after hitting bottom, and is then willing to really search for the truth, so the Father might then say No or not answer. The answer was what each man needed to hear, and was the truth to the real question... What would you have me do based on what I will do!

Lets say the one who joined the Catholic Church latter finds that it has apostatized from the true faith and he has found the LDS Church by some missionaries knocking on his door and answering questions that he now had the ability to understand. So this man now prays and asks, Is this the Truth Religion? Now Father say yes, even though the man possibly years before might have though Father had said the Catholic Church was His Church.

Now lets say that the first man was a Second Estate Being, and the second man was a Fourth Estate Being. The second man always knew there was a G_d, he really was just asking, where will I find you Lord, I am now ready to listen...

Now they are both members of the LDS Faith. They both come to a point where they learn of the fullness of the Gospel and begin seeking this further light. The first asks what Father's will is, and He is told to remain faithful to the Church in spite of the weakness of men. For Father knows he is not really able to stand on his own, and needs that fellowship and guidance to make it. The second on the other hand might need those experiences, and is led into other groups and churches. Sometime later, he may choose to return, sometime he has embraced doctrines outlawed by the Church, for the sake of the many, and he could never return. In the end, it is not membership that saves you, nor exalts you, but how much you are willing to sacrifice for Father, to do His will because of your love for Him and His children.

When it is said... More is expected of those whom are given more. That does not mean you do what is ask of everyone. What you must do is do what you are personally asked to do. Whatever that is! If you were a Father of many children, you would know you cannot expect the same from a second grader as you would from as forth grader. THIS WORLD IS A ONE ROOM SCHOOLHOUSE! Not everyone here is in the same grade...

Shalom

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Re: The Doctrine of Eternal Lives...

Post by BagleyDarwin »

The Doctrine of Eternal Progression:

An integral part of the Doctrine of Eternal Lives is the Doctrine of Eternal Progression. Joseph Smith started to introduce the Doctrine of Eternal Progression during his ministry. Of course, like with any new or strange Doctrine that Joseph Smith introduced, we only got a small taste of it before he was martyred; and, we are still trying to understand the full implications of it a couple of centuries later.

From the book, “Teachings of the Presidents of the Church – Joseph Smith”:

Joseph Smith said: “Those who have died in Jesus Christ may expect to enter into all that fruition of joy when they come forth, which they possessed or anticipated here. . . . I am glad I have the privilege of communicating to you some things which, if grasped closely, will be a help to you when earthquakes bellow, the clouds gather, the lightnings flash, and the storms are ready to burst upon you like peals of thunder. Lay hold of these things and let not your knees or joints tremble, nor your hearts faint; and then what can earthquakes, wars and tornadoes do? Nothing. All your losses will be made up to you in the resurrection, provided you continue faithful. By the vision of the Almighty I have seen it. . . .”

Do you see the implications?

If you were unable to receive Eternal Marriage while here in mortality due to no fault of your own, that loss will be made up to you in the Resurrection, provided you continue faithful. If you were unable to live a healthy happy life here in mortality, that loss will be made up to you in the Resurrection, provided you continue faithful. We could go on and on. Any loss you experience here in mortality will be made up to you in the Resurrection, provided you continue faithful. It's one of the most hopeful scriptures that I have ever encountered.

To look at the Doctrine of Eternal Progression from other angles feel free to look at my thread here:

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=33717&start=30#p488635" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Bananikka
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Re: The Doctrine of Eternal Lives...

Post by Bananikka »

Why is this book not being named? Is it a secret?
[/flash]
AshleyB wrote:
gruden2.0 wrote:In reading many of the posted quotes, nearly all of them refer to THE resurrection. That's the last time you'll pick up your life on this world. I've been curious about that book, but it looks like most of what it offers is quotes on the resurrection, as opposed to multiple probations, which is a different (although related) subject.
Gruden the book covers many different subjects... Some of the chapters are as follows: Mysteries, Revelation, Prayer: The Key to Greater Knowledge, The Second Comforter, Joseph and Brigham knew more than they could teach, From Grace - From exaltation to exaltation, Eternal Progression --Eternal Lives, Culminating Ordinances, Treasures in the Heavens, Tried in All Things, Born Again, KIngdoms of Glory and the Seven Heavens, Joseph, Brigham,and Heber Will Finish their work, ....and those are just a few of the chapters.... They cover many different topics but are wrap up and are supposed to be pertaining to the topic of Eternal Lives..

janderich
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Re: The Doctrine of Eternal Lives...

Post by janderich »

Bananikka wrote:Why is this book not being named? Is it a secret?
[/flash]
AshleyB wrote:
gruden2.0 wrote:In reading many of the posted quotes, nearly all of them refer to THE resurrection. That's the last time you'll pick up your life on this world. I've been curious about that book, but it looks like most of what it offers is quotes on the resurrection, as opposed to multiple probations, which is a different (although related) subject.
Gruden the book covers many different subjects... Some of the chapters are as follows: Mysteries, Revelation, Prayer: The Key to Greater Knowledge, The Second Comforter, Joseph and Brigham knew more than they could teach, From Grace - From exaltation to exaltation, Eternal Progression --Eternal Lives, Culminating Ordinances, Treasures in the Heavens, Tried in All Things, Born Again, KIngdoms of Glory and the Seven Heavens, Joseph, Brigham,and Heber Will Finish their work, ....and those are just a few of the chapters.... They cover many different topics but are wrap up and are supposed to be pertaining to the topic of Eternal Lives..
I see no secret. The book is called Teachings of the Doctrine of Eternal Lives the author has chosen to remain anonymous. It is largely a collection of scriptures, quotes by early brethren of the church, plus Hugh Nibley. It is not simply a book about the resurrection but delves into MMP. Of course, since it is quotes by apostles and prophets, people will choose to spin what is written in different ways. But having read it I think the direction is clear. Take these chapter headings and quotes from the chapter as examples:

On the Potter's Wheel - "And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it." (Jeremiah 18:4)

Again - "...that they might be begotten, sustained, and born, that they might live, die, and rise again to receive their inheritances on their respective earths" (Parley P. Pratt, Origin of the Universe, in the Essential Parley P. Pratt, p. 195, bold and underline in original)

From Grace to Grace, From Exaltation to Exaltation - "We receive these truths, and go on from glory to glory, from eternal lives to eternal lives, gaining a knowledge of all things" (Discourses of Brigham Young, p 152, see also JD 19:50, bold and underline in original)

Imagine an entire book like this and you get the idea. I find significant truth in it and some statements compelling but I do not agree with the direction taken in some chapters. That being said, I am happy that someone has taken the time to put this book together.

BagleyDarwin
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Re: The Doctrine of Eternal Lives...

Post by BagleyDarwin »


Gruden the book covers many different subjects... Some of the chapters are as follows: Mysteries, Revelation, Prayer: The Key to Greater Knowledge, The Second Comforter, Joseph and Brigham knew more than they could teach, From Grace - From exaltation to exaltation, Eternal Progression --Eternal Lives, Culminating Ordinances, Treasures in the Heavens, Tried in All Things, Born Again, KIngdoms of Glory and the Seven Heavens, Joseph, Brigham,and Heber Will Finish their work, ....and those are just a few of the chapters.... They cover many different topics but are wrap up and are supposed to be pertaining to the topic of Eternal Lives..

I see no secret. The book is called Teachings of the Doctrine of Eternal Lives the author has chosen to remain anonymous. It is largely a collection of scriptures, quotes by early brethren of the church, plus Hugh Nibley. It is not simply a book about the resurrection but delves into MMP. Of course, since it is quotes by apostles and prophets, people will choose to spin what is written in different ways. But having read it I think the direction is clear. Take these chapter headings and quotes from the chapter as examples:

On the Potter's Wheel - "And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it." (Jeremiah 18:4)

Again - "...that they might be begotten, sustained, and born, that they might live, die, and rise again to receive their inheritances on their respective earths" (Parley P. Pratt, Origin of the Universe, in the Essential Parley P. Pratt, p. 195, bold and underline in original)

From Grace to Grace, From Exaltation to Exaltation - "We receive these truths, and go on from glory to glory, from eternal lives to eternal lives, gaining a knowledge of all things" (Discourses of Brigham Young, p 152, see also JD 19:50, bold and underline in original)

Imagine an entire book like this and you get the idea. I find significant truth in it and some statements compelling but I do not agree with the direction taken in some chapters. That being said, I am happy that someone has taken the time to put this book together.
Regarding "Teachings of the Doctrine of Eternal Lives", I suggest these articles for consideration:

http://latterdaycommentary.com/2012/06/ ... nal-lives/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://latterdaycommentary.com/2013/04/ ... carnation/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://latterdaycommentary.com/2013/05/ ... re-before/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Tim Malone seems to convert over time.

One of my favorites is "Before Adam" by Hugh Nibley. There (and elsewhere I believe) Hugh Nibley sometimes talks about what Adam was doing before he was born as Adam. It makes me wonder what I was doing before I was born as Darwin.

http://publications.maxwellinstitute.by ... 97&index=1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This one has glitch bits on my computer:
http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publica ... _Adam.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I must admit that I have avoided spending a lot of time worrying about "Other Lives" that I might have lived or will live, because most of my time has been spent trying to figure out how to get this life right. I have noticed that some people who get hung up on reincarnation have actually chosen to sit this life out and wait for the next one.

The problem I ran into when I tried that approach to life is that I didn't die on schedule when I wanted to die or tried to die. Instead, I kept living. Life can be frustrating when we don't get what we want.

BagleyDarwin
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Re: The Doctrine of Eternal Lives...

Post by BagleyDarwin »

As far as I can tell, none of the people who have posted in this thread have been sustained in LDS General Conference as Prophets, Seers, and Revelators. None of us have jurisdiction or responsibility for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and the Latter-day Saints as a whole. Yet, most of the people who are quoted in "The Teachings of the Doctrine of Eternal Lives" were indeed sustained in LDS General Conference as Prophets, Seers, and Revelators. I do believe that Christ gives His Chosen Ones or His Anointed Ones extra insight that some of us might never receive or need in this life. Furthermore, I do believe that the material that Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost give to the LDS Apostles is a lot more accurate than the stuff that the rest of us seem to dream up on our own. That's my opinion.

The book "Teachings of the Doctrine of Eternal Lives" comes highly recommended for those who are able to look and see; but at the same time, I have also been told to take what has been written in this thread and similar threads with a big grain of salt. Caution is advised when it comes to a subject like this, because it's easy to miss the mark and get lost in the field and the large and spacious building that exist beyond the target.

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Kingdom of ZION
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Re: The Doctrine of Eternal Lives...

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The Mysteries of the Kingdom are not for the faint of heart. Why did the Lord (Adonai) teach the Doctrines of the Kingdom in parables? For those who have, He desires that they might have more in abundance. More blessings, more truths, more knowledge, more understanding of spiritual things! And for those who have not, even that which they have shall be taken from them, no blessings, no truths, no knowledge, and no understanding of spiritual things. If one wants the simple basic safe beliefs, and they continue down that path unending, they will never arrive where they enter in and sit down on the right hand of their Fathers kingdom.

Shalom

zionminded
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Re: The Doctrine of Eternal Lives...

Post by zionminded »

BagleyDarwin wrote:As far as I can tell, none of the people who have posted in this thread have been sustained in LDS General Conference as Prophets, Seers, and Revelators. None of us have jurisdiction or responsibility for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and the Latter-day Saints as a whole. Yet, most of the people who are quoted in "The Teachings of the Doctrine of Eternal Lives" were indeed sustained in LDS General Conference as Prophets, Seers, and Revelators. I do believe that Christ gives His Chosen Ones or His Anointed Ones extra insight that some of us might never receive or need in this life. Furthermore, I do believe that the material that Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost give to the LDS Apostles is a lot more accurate than the stuff that the rest of us seem to dream up on our own. That's my opinion.

The book "Teachings of the Doctrine of Eternal Lives" comes highly recommended for those who are able to look and see; but at the same time, I have also been told to take what has been written in this thread and similar threads with a big grain of salt. Caution is advised when it comes to a subject like this, because it's easy to miss the mark and get lost in the field and the large and spacious building that exist beyond the target.
Looking beyond the mark means to look past Christ and rely on men to tell you what to believe. Looking beyond the mark is to rely on the arm of the flesh, and not seek personal revelation from the Lord. Missing the mark is letting go of the rod of Iron, and do what Lehi first did which was to follow a man with a white robe and get lost in the mists (see 1 Ne 8:5-7). The only way to know truth (THE ONLY WAY), is to hold to the rod of Iron of personal revelation (the word of God), and have the Holy Ghost witness to you the truth of it.

I'm not saying this book is 100% true, but becareful to fall into a box where you rely on others for truth.

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Jesef
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Re: The Doctrine of Eternal Lives...

Post by Jesef »

ZM, and what truths have you learned and feel you now KNOW by the Holy Ghost?

kennyhs
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Re: The Doctrine of Eternal Lives...

Post by kennyhs »

Original_Intent wrote:Well, I find the reincarnation interesting, because although I have never embraced it, I have always had a gut feeling that some form of reincarnation might actually occur. I don;t believe that people come back as sheep, or cows, or bugs, etc., and I do not believe that people are repeatedly reborn in one cycle of creation, but I have wondered if a person might not be reborn in a different cycle of creation, this almost seems necessary to me. I wouldn't embrace it unless I either heard it from a GA or had a very clear visitation/instruction through the veil...but as I ahve been struggling with various ideas, this is something that has nagged at me over the years.
Doesn't reincarnation negate the purpose of the atonement of Jesus Christ. That anyone can take on different physical forms?

To accept this would be to refute—that there was a single act of redemption by Jesus Christ. (See D&C 18:23.)

Reincarnation does have some similarities with the gospel, but it denies the purpose of the Atonement.
No matter if Bruce Jenner try's to change his gender, his spirit is a man, always will be. :D

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Jesef
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Re: The Doctrine of Eternal Lives...

Post by Jesef »

Multiple mortal lives is not absurd, to be distinguished from reincarnating from human to animal, up and down the spectrum of life forms. "This life" takes on a different meaning with such an interpretation. If we learn one thing from D&C 19, it is that not every scriptural/spiritual word, term, or phrase means exactly what we think it might, at first glance or on the surface - and language is pretty ambiguous stuff. Just saying, how do you KNOW it's not true? Sure, lots of authorities have expressed their various opinions (on LOTS of things) and you can interpret certain scriptures as definitive, but are they really? Maybe this is one of the "mysteries" many are not aware of. There's some pretty strange stuff in the Journal of Discourses and early journals (like Second Anointing blessings), for example, in which guys like Brigham Young were promised they would descend and become literal Atoning Saviors on future worlds, after this life. How would such fit in with a strict view of one mortal life and resurrection? How would that make any sense unless they became semi-mortal again, etc.? Maybe Jesus Christ had an immortal body before he came down. How was He God before coming here? Anyway, maybe you're not open to such possibilities. But I don't think you can say you KNOW one way or the other.

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Kingdom of ZION
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Re: The Doctrine of Eternal Lives...

Post by Kingdom of ZION »

kennyhs wrote:Doesn't reincarnation negate the purpose of the atonement of Jesus Christ. That anyone can take on different physical forms?

To accept this would be to refute—that there was a single act of redemption by Jesus Christ. (See D&C 18:23.)

Reincarnation does have some similarities with the gospel, but it denies the purpose of the Atonement.
No matter if Bruce Jenner try's to change his gender, his spirit is a man, always will be. :D
Brother Kenny, to read the length and breathe of this thread is not a short thing. Jesef asked ZM, what truths have you learned and feel you now KNOW by the Holy Ghost? I will answer you both.

I am the one who is declaring this Doctrine, the Doctrine of Eight Estates of Probation and Progression. This is the Doctrine of Eternal Lives. I do this by the revelations from heaven, I declare that this is a foundational Doctrine of the Kingdom. The Messiah declared it in parables, Joseph Smith revealed it in the Temple allegory, and it will be openly revealed in the coming Dispensation.

So, Kenny you ask a good question. How does Beings being born of women again not negate the Atonement. This is the Second Estate Beings Estate. Second Estate's are born but once and will live and die and be judged according to their knowledge of the truth, and their deeds in the flesh. Fourth Estate Beings are here only as emissaries of the Most High, in a world where He nor His Son, nor His Grandson Michael, nor His Great Grandson, our Messiah, Uriel can come! When the Messiah does come forth, the age of this world will pass by just His presence here, but before that, much needs to be done to save as many as possible of our Fathers children, the Second Estate Beings. This work and gathering shall be done by His servants, the Elect. When one refuses to do the Fathers will, in violation of their covenant, the Lord then makes it clear that their is no purpose in them being here then and makes it know if they will not keep their covenant, then He will bring them home. Jonah had that problem! It was also rumored that an Angel appeared to Joseph Smith with a flaming sword and told him that if he refused to reveal the New and Everlasting Covenant of Marriage, that he would slay him where he stands. Clearly, history records both though better of it and fulfilled their Mission and Calling.

As a point of Interest, Fourth Estate Beings come down here with their Calling and Election in tack. They are told, 'If you will go down, and though you may commit all manner of sins, except the unpardonable sin, I will bring you back, but you will fulfill the Mission I have sent you to fulfill!'

Shalom
Last edited by Kingdom of ZION on January 2nd, 2016, 7:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Rachael
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Re: The Doctrine of Eternal Lives...

Post by Rachael »

I will just wait til it's time to receive this info. No sense of taking graduate courses when still at a Jr or Sr high level. There's milk, meat, and now bones. I will gnaw on it in good time. Skipping grades and leaping over precepts upon precepts can make a future principle distorted imo

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