The Doctrine of Eternal Lives...

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"I don;t think that you get multiple "bites at the apple" - in my opinion, IF we have multiple lives at all, I believe it is to progress to further "estates" - I do not think you get multiple mortal probations until you "get it right".[/quote]"


Thank you - I agree. I'm a little confused about all of the Estates - probably because I only get to spend a few minutes here and there on this forum. So are you saying someone here on earth could be in their 2nd or 3rd estate meaning 2 or 3rd time here on earth - not to get a redo but for further progression. I'm confused about the Estate things and guess what - gotta run, just got back from Jiu Jitsu class and now off to the store and dropping kids off at a birthday party!

1st Estate - Mortal life
2nd Estate - Mortal life again for?
3rd Estate - the Millenium

4th Estate - Celestial beings - The men [Forth Estate Beings] are ALL fast asleep. and they are commanded to 'Awake and Arise!" What is it to Awake and Arise? It is to remember who you were before this world and why you were sent here! Some currently remember... When it is time, the 144,000 will all awaken

see my confusion - can you put it in this kind of reference for me - like an outline?

is this right?

[AshleyB]

It makes sense about the Lord's elect. The scriptures say something to the effect of "if it were possible, even mine elect would be deceived..." In this context I can understand why the "elect" cannot be deceived. So you are saying that if a person is considered "elect" they have already lived in their second estate, and passed their mortal probation. Do these people know their status, or will they eventually understand these things(in this life)? Also what does [booth] mean?

The men [Forth Estate Beings] are ALL fast asleep. and they are commanded to 'Awake and Arise!" What is it to Awake and Arise? It is to remember who you were before this world and why you were sent here! Some currently remember... When it is time, the 144,000 will all awaken!

So what about the women. What role do we all play in this? If all men are meant to become saviors themselves what is the test of women?

[HeirofNumenor]

If all men are meant to become saviors themselves what is the test of women?

This concept of all men being saviors...at least if meant as each man themselves perform Christ's Atonement as part of their progression...that part is purely false doctrine, and is completely unsupported by any LDS scripture or prophet.

[Kingdom of ZION]

See my confusion - can you put it in this kind of reference for me - like an outline?

Yes I can...

1st Estate - Pre-existence - Likened unto outer darkness, world without glory - Millennial World from the Creation before [1st Creation]
2nd Estate - Mortal life [once only] - Likened unto a Telestial World - [2ns Creation]
3rd Estate - Millennium - Likened unto a Terrestrial World - [still the same world - 2nd Creation]
4th Estate - Telestial World [come down three times - Likened unto a Celestial World - [3rd Creation] - Baby or Young Man, millions
4th Estate - Telestial World [come down three times - Likened unto a Celestial World - [4rd Creation] - Junior or Middle Age Man, 144,000
4th Estate - Telestial World [come down three times - Likened unto a Celestial World - [5rd Creation] - Senior or Old Man, 4-5
5th Estate - Telestial World [come down three times - [6rd Creation] - Yehoshua
6th Estate - Terrestrial World [come down once in 4-5 Creations - [7th through 10th or 11th Creations] - Adam
7th Estate - Celestial World [enter to no more come out] - No more to go down - [12 - 13 through 37 - 38 Creations] - Great Jehovah
8th Estate - Celestial [the center of the galaxy] - countless Creation - Elohim

[Kingdom of ZION]

If all men are meant to become saviors themselves what is the test of women?

This concept of all men being saviors...at least if meant as each man themselves perform Christ's Atonement as part of their progression...that part is purely false doctrine, and is completely unsupported by any LDS scripture or prophet.

I beg to differ with you. The PAST name [sorry HeirofNumenor] and first name is the new name [which is your old name if your a Fourth Estate Being.
Your given name is the PRESENT name and your current name here. And the FUTURE name and third name is What?!?!?!?!

The Sacrament is a covenant that your asking to and promising to come the Messiah. So, why are we commanded to eat His flesh and drink His blood? Because were cannibals? Wars have been fought over this doctrine! You have to have flesh of His flesh... sired by a Celestial Being, and have the same blood and birthright in your veins and body. If not then you shall not receive the same inheritance as he and those who do! You will also not have the marking of a God, in your flesh. KoZ

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Thanks for the outline - so are we all her on earth in the 2nd estate or are you saying there are people on this earth in the 4th estate also? Another question - in the 4th estate outline I don't understand the 3 references at the end - (baby or young man, millions), (junior or middle age man, 144,000), and Senior or old man, 4-5)

What does that mean?

[HeirofNumenor]

See my confusion - can you put it in this kind of reference for me - like an outline?

Yes I can...

1st Estate - Pre-existence - Likened unto outer darkness, world without glory - Millennial World from the Creation before [1st Creation]
2nd Estate - Mortal life [once only] - Likened unto a Telestial World - [2ns Creation]
3rd Estate - Millennium - Likened unto a Terrestrial World - [still the same world - 2nd Creation]
4th Estate - Telestial World [come down three times - Likened unto a Celestial World - [3rd Creation] - Baby or Young Man, millions
4th Estate - Telestial World [come down three times - Likened unto a Celestial World - [4rd Creation] - Junior or Middle Age Man, 144,000
4th Estate - Telestial World [come down three times - Likened unto a Celestial World - [5rd Creation] - Senior or Old Man, 4-5
5th Estate - Telestial World [come down three times - [6rd Creation] - Yehoshua
6th Estate - Terrestrial World [come down once in 4-5 Creations - [7th through 10th or 11th Creations] - Adam
7th Estate - Celestial World [enter to no more come out] - No more to go down - [12 - 13 through 37 - 38 Creations] - Great Jehovah
8th Estate - Celestial [the center of the galaxy] - countless Creation - Elohim

This is completely unsubstantiated garbage...complete false doctrine and he is sucking you all in. People here must be so desperate for intellectual stimulation cause you are tired of the milk you hear at church...someone comes along promising to give you meat and you go running after him! None of what he says makes any sense, and none of it can...because it is FALSE!
For instance: the 144,000 are high priests who have been sexually pure there whole lives, and they are chosen from THIS EARTH - in this ONE AND ONLY MORTAL LIFE....there are NO multiple probations, NO multiple mortal lifetimes....the Second Estate is the highest mentioned in scripture...the afterlife can be alluded to a Third Estate, though it is called that only by KOZ...there is nothing more...

[HeirofNumenor]

My responses in RED

If all men are meant to become saviors themselves what is the test of women?

This concept of all men being saviors...at least if meant as each man themselves perform Christ's Atonement as part of their progression...that part is purely false doctrine, and is completely unsupported by any LDS scripture or prophet.

I beg to differ with you. Differ all you want. The pass name and first name is the new name [which is your old name if your a Fourth Estate Being.
Your given name is the present name and your current name here. And the future name and third name is What?!?!?!?!
What the heck are you calling a pass name? You have the given name your parents gave you. Some people may have been known by a different name before birth, but nothing is doctrinal that says EVERYONE had a different name in the pre-mortal world. The New name is well know to those who have been to the temple...and well known that it is not to be revealed, or even discussed, except at a very specific place IN THE TEMPLE (which this forum is not one). If you mean the pass name by which you pass by the angels and sentinels, then that is the new name - unless you are referring the actual names for the various parts of the Endowment which we are NOT to discuss outside of the temple. There is nothing doctrinal regarding a future/third name - as far as the individual goes, though collectively the Saints with be called Church of the First Born, Sons & daughter of God, Joint Heirs with Christ.

The Sacrament is a covenant that your asking to and promising to come the Messiah. NO it NOT a covenant to BECOME A MESSIAH/ATONING SAVIOR of the/a World So, why are we commanded to eat His flesh and drink His blood? We are commanded to do this to always REMEMBER Him, to behave like him...to be Christ-LIKE, NOT BECOME ATONING CHRISTS OURSELVES. Because were cannibals? You know darn well that transubstantiation is a false doctrine the Catholics came up with. Wars have been fought over this doctrine! No, wars have been fought over political control/independence from, influence, and riches of the Catholic Church/Islam, etc. You have to have flesh of His flesh... mentioned in scripture only in connection of Adam and his wife/mate Eve sired by a Celestial Being, and have the same blood and birthright in your veins and body. Only our spirit bodies come from Heavenly Father (Not Jehovah/Jesus, or from Adam, or from any other being)...and our mortal parents sired our physical bodies. No argument on birthright, as spirit children of Eloheim, we all have the potential to become Gods & Goddesses. If not then you shall not receive the same inheritance as he and those who do! No, the way to receive the same inheritance is to obey the commandments, make the covenants, live a Christ-like life, be valiant in your testimony/magnify your callings. You will also not have the marking of a God, in your flesh. Whatever that means... KoZ

[HeirofNumenor]

You are full of crap, and full of yourself.

You take pieces of the scriptures, with words of prophets, some reliable, few recent, declare those prophets that teach against your understanding to be teaching false doctrine (Joseph F. Smith), mix it in with bits from other religions, as well as the Apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha, both of which are unreliable as scripture (the Lord told Joseph Smith that in D&C 91), combine it with misunderstandings of history, you then mix it and twist it together...and say your major source is "the Holy Ghost" revealed directly to you personally - and here you come in teaching these things as if it is the absolute truth - because YOU say so, or better, that The HOLY GHOST told you (rather than words of scripture and prophets that any can read and therefore confirm your words), and that the prophets really meant all this talk about multiple probation, estates (higher than second estate is not mentioned anywhere in scripture, and even if third estate is referring to after death, there is nothing resembling anything like the outline you just gave.

You have others here hiding behind studying the deeper mysteries and developing the intellect, you have gone far off the cliff. In the meantime you lead many over the cliff with you. And you gather all those who are frustrated that the official program of the Church doesn't give them more than milk.

2 Timothy 4:3
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

You would be very much at home with the crowd in Athens of Acts 17

21(For all the Athenians and strangers which were there spent their time in nothing else, but either to tell, or to hear some new thing.)

You are wrapped up in looking beyond the mark. You will have the results you desire.

Jacob 4:14
14 But behold, the Jews were a stiffnecked people; and they despised the words of plainness, and killed the prophets, and sought for things that they could not understand. Wherefore, because of their blindness, which blindness came by looking beyond the mark, they must needs fall; for God hath taken away his plainness from them, and delivered unto them many things which they cannot understand, because they desired it. And because they desired it God hath done it, that they may stumble.

You will end up like the September Six. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_Six, if you haven't been excommunicated already...

[firend]

See my confusion - can you put it in this kind of reference for me - like an outline?

Yes I can...

1st Estate - Pre-existence - Likened unto outer darkness, world without glory - Millennial World from the Creation before [1st Creation]
2nd Estate - Mortal life [once only] - Likened unto a Telestial World - [2ns Creation]
3rd Estate - Millennium - Likened unto a Terrestrial World - [still the same world - 2nd Creation]
4th Estate - Telestial World [come down three times - Likened unto a Celestial World - [3rd Creation] - Baby or Young Man, millions
4th Estate - Telestial World [come down three times - Likened unto a Celestial World - [4rd Creation] - Junior or Middle Age Man, 144,000
4th Estate - Telestial World [come down three times - Likened unto a Celestial World - [5rd Creation] - Senior or Old Man, 4-5
5th Estate - Telestial World [come down three times - [6rd Creation] - Yehoshua
6th Estate - Terrestrial World [come down once in 4-5 Creations - [7th through 10th or 11th Creations] - Adam
7th Estate - Celestial World [enter to no more come out] - No more to go down - [12 - 13 through 37 - 38 Creations] - Great Jehovah
8th Estate - Celestial [the center of the galaxy] - countless Creation - Elohim

This is completely unsubstantiated garbage...complete false doctrine and he is sucking you all in. People here must be so desperate for intellectual stimulation cause you are tired of the milk you hear at church...someone comes along promising to give you meat and you go running after him! None of what he says makes any sense, and none of it can...because it is FALSE!
For instance: the 144,000 are high priests who have been sexually pure there whole lives, and they are chosen from THIS EARTH - in this ONE AND ONLY MORTAL LIFE....there are NO multiple probations, NO multiple mortal lifetimes....the Second Estate is the highest mentioned in scripture...the afterlife can be alluded to a Third Estate, though it is called that only by KOZ...there is nothing more...

yep.

I am glad for you Heiro because between this thread and the Adam God thread it seems have been taken over by fundamentalists or something similar.

One thing I have noticed is when ever a scholar has read all this info that most have not, they seem smart. Ah, now what happens when they run into another scholar who can show how rediculous it is.

I mean do people like Hugh Nibley, Avraham Gileadi, Lyndon Cook, Andrew Ehat, etc not know about this type of stuff. Sure they do, and they know it is nonsense.

I think it was Andrew and Lyndon that studied with Fred Collier for awhile. You want to hear some wacky stuff look up Fred Collier or JJ Dewey, etc....not everything they say is false ofcourse. However there is plenty of non-sense mixed in.

Rely on what is written in scripture as God himself has told us, then you have a foundation to build on. This is like so many other subjects that get twisted.


So we have Adam/God
and MMP (multiple mortal probations
and this eternal life thread
and wife saving doctrine
and woman having the priesthood
and.....

Step over to the TLC in Manti and they will show you that God says an Apostle resurrects higher than an Elder...so if you love your wife you had better give her on over to the Apostle. I know where they are getting this, quotes and more quotes from man and a BIG misunderstanding because they want it to say that.

Just like all this Adam/God or MMP or whatever. Yes there are lots of man's quotes. Yet there are literally dozens of scripture quotes that show Michael is not Heavenly Father. Oh, but there are some man quotes on it (not thus saith the Lord) so lets blow off the scriptures because Brigham or another could not miss the mark on that. Lets just force fit scripture to man's quotes. Lets blow all those thus saith the Lord scriptures for some non thus saith the Lord man's quotes and 2nd and 3rd hand accounts.

Scripture first, get your foundation, then all these man quotes can easily be assimilated as to what they really mean, or can be found to be in error.

[Kingdom of ZION]

The men [Forth Estate Beings] are ALL fast asleep. and they are commanded to 'Awake and Arise!" What is it to Awake and Arise? It is to remember who you were before this world and why you were sent here! Some currently remember... When it is time, the 144,000 will all awaken!

So what about the women. What role do we all play in this? If all men are meant to become saviors themselves what is the test of women?

It takes a good women for a man to awaken... the old saying that the hand that rocks the cradle rules the world, is true. It is almost impossible for a man to awaken without a good women behind him. They are not asleep, they can see spiritually but NOT clearly, they have a veil between them and that world.

[iamse7en]

lol. I don't get much of what he says. I don't buy into any of this stuff, because it isn't made clear by the prophets, but this back and forth is at least entertaining to read. And I like Heiro's rebuttals. They're funny. And firend, I am not a fundamentalist; I am just honest about what BY said.

[Kingdom of ZION]

This concept of all men being saviors...at least if meant as each man themselves perform Christ's Atonement as part of their progression...that part is purely false doctrine, and is completely unsupported by any LDS scripture or prophet.

I beg to differ with you. Differ all you want. The PAST name and first name is the new name [which is your old name if your a Fourth Estate Being. Your given name is the PRESENT name and your current name here. And the FUTURE name and third name is What?!?!?!?! What the heck are you calling a pass name? You have the given name your parents gave you. Some people may have been known by a different name before birth, but nothing is doctrinal that says EVERYONE had a different name in the pre-mortal world. The New name is well know to those who have been to the temple...and well known that it is not to be revealed, or even discussed, except at a very specific place IN THE TEMPLE (which this forum is not one). If you mean the pass name by which you pass by the angels and sentinels, then that is the new name - unless you are referring the actual names for the various parts of the Endowment which we are NOT to discuss outside of the temple. There is nothing doctrinal regarding a future/third name - as far as the individual goes, though collectively the Saints with be called Church of the First Born, Sons & daughter of God, Joint Heirs with Christ.

The Sacrament is a covenant that your asking to and promising to come the Messiah. NO it NOT a covenant to BECOME A MESSIAH/ATONING SAVIOR of the/a World So, why are we commanded to eat His flesh and drink His blood? We are commanded to do this to always REMEMBER Him, to behave like him...to be Christ-LIKE, NOT BECOME ATONING CHRISTS OURSELVES. Because were cannibals? You know darn well that transubstantiation is a false doctrine the Catholics came up with. Wars have been fought over this doctrine! No, wars have been fought over political control/independence from, influence, and riches of the Catholic Church/Islam, etc. You have to have flesh of His flesh... mentioned in scripture only in connection of Adam and his wife/mate Eve sired by a Celestial Being, and have the same blood and birthright in your veins and body. Only our spirit bodies come from Heavenly Father (Not Jehovah/Jesus, or from Adam, or from any other being)...and our mortal parents sired our physical bodies. No argument on birthright, as spirit children of Eloheim, we all have the potential to become Gods & Goddesses. If not then you shall not receive the same inheritance as he and those who do! No, the way to receive the same inheritance is to obey the commandments, make the covenants, live a Christ-like life, be valiant in your testimony/magnify your callings. You will also not have the marking of a God, in your flesh. Whatever that means... KoZ

The markings of a God is the prints of the nails and spear in the side... but I guess you and I will just have to agree to disagree You see nothing I see and I know why I stand where I do.

[firend]

lol. I don't get much of what he says. I don't buy into any of this stuff, because it isn't made clear by the prophets, but this back and forth is at least entertaining to read. And I like Heiro's rebuttals. They're funny. And firend, I am not a fundamentalist; I am just honest about what BY said.

I will agree that BY said those things. I have studied it too, and am well aware of it.

[Kingdom of ZION]

Thanks for the outline - so are we all her on earth in the 2nd estate or are you saying there are people on this earth in the 4th estate also? Another question - in the 4th estate outline I don't understand the 3 references at the end - (baby or young man, millions), (junior or middle age man, 144,000), and Senior or old man, 4-5)

What does that mean?

Fourth Estate Beings come down three times in three worlds or creations. JS in his 101 Parable uses middle age men and young men, which implies that their must be old men. I use the term Baby, Juniors and Seniors. As for how many men is there in this creation of these different ages... millions of Babies, 144,000 Juniors, and only 5 [rarely in one creation, there is only 4}. From the world before, Lucifer fell and we had only 4 from that creation. Why is this one of the most wick of all the Father's creations? Because we have Lucifer here in this creation.

[Kingdom of ZION]

Food for thought... is there opposition in all things in this world. Are there those here under Pre-existent pre-ordination of condemnation? YES!

Jude 1 [KJV]

1 Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:

2 Mercy unto you, and peace, and love, be multiplied.

3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

[Read some more of Jude and see if you think Jude was say they are here in the flesh.]

7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

8 Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.

9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

10 But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.

11 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.

12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;

13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.


A none LDS paper on the cursed seed that many here say does not exist [offered here for more food for thought]:

THE SEED OF THE SERPENT

By an Unknown Author

And God said to the serpent: "And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel."
This introductory scripture verse is found in a portion of Genesis 3:15, wherein God speaking to the serpent or devil said-. "And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and is between thy seed and her seed." The latter portion of this verse will be used at a later time to confirm some very positive and informative thoughts.
As stated before, God is talking to the devil and plainly states that the devil is to have seed or issue;. Most preachers and Bible teachers teach that this verse bears the introductory promise of the Messiah or Christ's first advent in God's plan to reconcile Man again to himself. However, they seem unable or reluctant to admit that God here declared that the devil, too, was to have a seed. They are willing to concede that Eve's seed was a physical human seed, but they contend that the devil's, if he should have seed or issue, would be spiritual or without a physical body.
In order to clarify this, let us delve into the Word of God, for therein we will find the answer. Since we know that the woman's seed was a physical one, would it not be reasonable to believe that Satan's was also physical?
In Genesis 1:3 1, God, after He had finished his creative work, declared it to be good. The verse reads, "And God saw everything that He had made, and, behold it was very good." However, when we read a few chapters further, we find that the status has changed from "good" to "corrupt". In Genesis 6:12, we read, "And God looked upon the earth, and, behold it was corrupt: for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth." In verse 17 of this same chapter of Genesis, we hear a decree from Almighty God that which He had called "good" in Genesis 1:31 had now fallen into such a corrupt condition that he was now going to destroy it. It reads: "And, behold, 1, even 1, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven: and everything that is in the earth shall die."
Somewhere between these two verses, in., Genesis 1:31 and Genesis 6:17, we will find the answer to the cause of God's decree to destroy His handiwork.
In Genesis 2:25, we find Adam and Eve still in their sinless perfection before God, for here we read: "And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed." We need to skip only six verses to find a very opposite picture--a picture of pure innocence to one of guilt and shamefacedness. Genesis 3:7 declares, "And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked, and they sewed fig leaves together, and made them aprons". Should we study the things that transpired in the first six verses of Genesis 3, doubtlessly we would know what act committed by our first parents brought shame, sorrow, alienation from God, and the sting of death upon the race of man.
"Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? And the woman said unto the serpent, Ye may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden-. But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die." Genesis 3:1,2,3.
Up to this point we have seen that Eve had perfect and absolute understanding of what God had said concerning the fruit of the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil"; that she should abstain from the fruit of this tree and to not so much as touch it.
To clarify the meaning of the word "tree" as here used, this "tree of the knowledge of (food and evil" was not as we usually use the word; one of sap, bark, and foliage, neither was it, as we so often hear, "an apple tree". For these do not possess the ability to discern between good and evil, nor are they endowed with the gift of speech.

If we would peruse the Scriptures, we would rind that "races" and "trees" are used synonymously. In Romans 11:24, Paul speaks of the Gentiles as a "wild olive tree", while Israel, as a race, was spoken of as an "olive tree". and Ezekiel 31:3, says: "Behold, the Assyrian was a cedar' in Lebanon".
In Jeremiah 11:19, Jesus is referred to as a tree. Also, in Matthew 3: 1 0, John the Baptist declares: "And now also the ax is laid unto the root of the trees, therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire," These were not trees as we Usually apply the term. John the Baptist simply meant that now Jesus, the Messiah, had come and all races would be brought into Judgment before Him.
Therefore, this, that was spoken of or called "the tree of the knowledge of good and evil", was the devil. Also in other places he is called the serpent, the dragon, belial, etc.
In Genesis 3 :4 we will continue the conversation recorded between the serpent and Eve. The serpent speaking says: "Ye shall not surely die, for God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and it was pleasant to the eyes and a tree to be desired to make one wise she took of the fruit thereof and did eat."
At this point it would be well to mention another tree of prominence that was in the Garden of Eden. In Genesis 2:9, God first mentions the stationary trees, pecan, peach, apricot, etc. After referring to these He says: "the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil."
These two trees, "the tree of life" and "the tree of the knowledge of good and evil", vied for Adam's and Eve's affection. And as it is today, "looks" played too great a part. As Eve looked from one to the other, she became captivated by the exquisite beauty of "the tree of the knowledge of good and evil"; but when she would turn to look at "the tree of life", she would see one as the Prophet Isaiah so vividly describes: "...He hath no form nor comeliness: and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him." Isaiah 53:2. We will now read of the beauty of "the tree of the knowledge of good and evil". God very positively declares that lie had been in Eden, the garden of God. It is recorded in Ezekiel 28:12 through 15.
... thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, 'perfect in beauty'. Thou hast been in Eden the Garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the 'asper, the sapphire, the emeralds, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God, thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee."
As Eve beheld on one hand one that had no beauty and on the other one 'perfect in beauty', she thus became captivated by what she was seeing. She was pleasant to the eyes, and as he had promised to make her as God himself--"knowing good and evil--"...she took of the fruit thereof and did eat..."
To this juncture, only Eve has eaten of the forbidden fruit proffered her by the serpent, and to this point, Adam has not partaken. Soon, however. after Eve's partaking with the serpent, the Bible states that "...she gave also unto her husband with her and he did eat." At this point we observe that a change comes "from sinless purity naked and not ashamed" to "they knew that they were naked"-, so they improvised coverings for their organs of sex as recorded in Genesis 3:7, for here it states:
"And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked- and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons."
Even thou-h this is not the current understanding, a careful study of the scriptures will definitely prove that the sin committed by our first parents was sexual; and Eve was indeed a "fallen Woman" after her partaking of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

To further prove this, let us read Genesis 3:16 where God talked with Eve soon after she had eaten of the forbidden fruit. "Unto the woman He said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children, and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee."
We should observe carefully where God places Eve's punishments "sorrow In conception",, and "sorrow in bringing forth children". It is exactly where we would, expect Him to put it if the sin was sexual. Also the word children depicts not singular, but plural, bearing. Then He further adds, "Thy desire shall be to thy husband", certainly alluding to the probability that her desire had heretofore been to another.
In 1 Timothy 2:14 we read, "And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression." This could have been translated, 'but the woman was the transgressor'.
In Hebrews 13:4 Paul states, "Marriage is honorable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whore mongers and adulterers God will judge." Only by the process of marriage and cohabitation could Man fulfill the command given by God in Genesis 1:28 when He said "...Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth... "Eve's transgression was that she committed this act of sexual unchastity apart from Adam and with the forbidden "tree of the knowledge of good and evil" here called the serpent.
Again we shall quote some of the Apostle Paul's writings in the New Testament. In II Corinthians 11:2 and 3, Paul is writing to those converts that he had led, through much toll and travail, to Jesus Christ. To them he writes, "For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ." Paul is here speaking in terms of chastity. A woman could be, a thief, shoplifter, liar, or any one of m, any things and still be a virgin, for there is but one way; for a woman to lose her virginity.
Paul, while admonishing this Church in Corinth about, chastity, remembered an episode that occurred in the Garden of Eden and h e, in the very next verse, referred to it when he wrote-. "But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtility...... The word beguiled means the same, as does the word seduced and possibly should have been so translated here, In the Jewish Talmud, (book) Yebamoth 103a--103b, it says that the serpent "copulated' with Eve.
In Genesis 3:10 when Adam admitted his awareness of the fact that he was naked, God immediately says to him: "Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?"
Adam did not have to confess, God knew that the eating of the forbidden, fruit had made him aware of his nakedness.
At the time that God told Eve (Genesis 3:16) that she would bring forth children, Eve had already had unchaste relations with both the serpent and Adam, God was here making known to her that two seeds had been planted in her womb, one by the serpent and the other by Adam. This is verified in the subject verse when God, speaking to the serpent, mentioned the two seeds, "thy seed and her seed."
In Genesis 4:1 we read, "And Adam knew Eve his wife: and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the Lord." Even though Cain was her firstborn and she thought him to be her promised seed, she later acknowledges that Abel, not Cain, was her promised seed. Therefore, if Abel was her promised seed, then Cain would have to be the seed or progeny of the serpent. This is confirmed by the Apostle John and is recorded in I John 3:12 and reads: "Not as Cain, who was 'of that wicked one..." The word 'of' plainly denotes offspring or progeny of the wicked one.
In Genesis 4:1 notice that Eve thinks Cain to be her seed, but in verse 25 she acknowledges that she was wrong. It reads, "And Adam knew his wife again, and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: for God, said she, hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew." A perusal of the Bible dictionary shows the name 'Seth' to mean 'substitute', while the name 'Cain' means 'acquired' or gotten from another source. Nowhere in all the Bible is Cain's name mentioned in the lineage of Adam. The places where Adam's lineage occurs are Genesis 5:3, 1 Chronicles 1:1, and Luke 3:38.

Bible teachers and preachers are in agreement that Cain and Abel were twins. To this God's word agrees, for in Genesis 4:3 and 4, they came of age at the same time and presented their offerings on the same day. Too, in Genesis 4:1, the Bible states that Adam 'knew' his wife, Eve, and she conceived by him, yet verses I and 2 show two births and. only one conception is attributed to Adam. Verse 2 says, "And she again bare his brother Abel..."
To read the rest of this chapter one becomes amazed at the speed of Prophetic fulfillment; for in this very first generation we see the enmity mentioned in Genesis 3:15 brought forcefully to our remembrance when the serpent's son, Cain, rises up and slays the woman's son, Abel.
Beginning at Matthew 13:24 Jesus said...... The kingdom of heaven is likened to a man which sowed good seed in his field: But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way. But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also."
Jesus, in this parable, was likening God as the man, Naturally God's enemy would be the devil. God first sowed some good seed, or God seed, for the word 'good' is derived from the word 'God'. This good seed was Adam and Eve: Adam was good seed for he was the son of God (Luke 3:38) and Eve was taken from his side so she was exactly the same as he, being bone of his bones and flesh of his flesh. The serpent, God's enemy, came and sowed some seed of his own, the first of which, was Cain. The time of fruit was when Cain and Abel reached maturity and were required to present themselves to the Lord. Genesis 4:3 and 4 declares:
"And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the Lord. And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and the fat thereof. And the Lord had respect unto Abel and to his offering: But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell."
As Jesus explains this parable in detail a little later in this chapter, we will first read verse 34 and 35: "All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables-, and without a parable spake he not unto them: That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I 'II open my mouth 'n Parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world."
To rightly understand this parable, we must go back to the foundation, or beginning, of this world, or age, as recorded in the book of Genesis.
The disciples were much intrigued with this parable because they knew there was something in it that they did not understand, so in verse 36 they asked Him saying:"...Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. He answered and said unto them. He that sowed the good seed is the Son of man; the field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; the enemy that sowed them is the devil..."
The above parable is almost a perfect repetition of what we found to be written and portrayed in the first four chapters of Genesis.
Jesus, in this parable, stated that the tares were the 'children of the wicked one' which agrees perfectly with I John 3:12 where John states that 'Cain was of that wicked one'. Also, we are told that Cain's progeny was destroyed at the time of the flood, and that none of them exist today. Yet, Jesus fixed the 'tares' destruction at the end of this age for He said in verse 40, "As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world." (Note; Much Biblical and scientific proof exists that Noah's Flood was not universal, nor did it cover the entire earth. Only one large Valley in Asia was flooded).

Thus far in this narrative we have in no way endeavored to show who the seed or progeny of the serpent is, but only to confirm that there is an abundance of Bible evidence to prove that he does have children and that there will be enmity, distrust, and a state of constant friction between them and the Adamic race. They would be abusive to the rights, privileges, and laws of others; thus they would be an unassimilating group of people; a nation within a nation.
Being the seed or progeny of the devil, they would be the enemy of God and a deterring factor in the way of those who sought to worship Him. Jesus declared, "No "Man cometh unto the Father, but by me." If this is true, they would be 'Anti-Christ' and violently abusive to any and all who sought to worship Him,
I John 2:22 portrays an excellent picture of one who would seem to fit the serpent's progeny. It reads, "Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ9 He is anti-christ, that denieth the Father and the Son." As the word Christ means 'anointed of God' this verse would have been better, had it said, 'Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the anointed of God?'
Again in I John 4:2 and 3, "Hereby know ye the spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God:... this is that spirit of anti-christ..."
Ben Hecht, a Jewish writer of Hollywood, showed a very anti christ tint when he wrote in one of his books: "One of the finest things ever done by the mob was the crucifixion of Christ. Intellectually it was a splendid gesture. But trust the mob to bungle. If I'd had charge of executing Christ, I'd have handled it differently. You see, what I'd have done was had him shipped to Rome and fed to the lions. They never could have made a savior out of mincemeat."
1 John 3:10 confirms the existence of two seeds when he says, "In this the children 'of God are manifest, and the children 'of the Devil:" Doubtlessly these things are new to many who will read this, but more confirmation should be unnecessary. As the Bible proves the existence of the devil's seed or progeny, let it now positively identify them.
In St. John 8:22, we find Jesus talking to some Jews and in verse 23 we read, "And he sal 'd unto them, "Ye are from beneath; I am from above:..." Jesus here declared His origin and theirs to be the same only if one is able to reconcile beneath and above as being the same place. When we begin to check the word 'beneath', we find that it is used synonymously with 'hell'; for Isaiah 14:9 starts by saying: "Hell from Beneath". Therefore Jesus could have said, Ye are from hell, I am from heaven. Matthew 23:15 confirms this as correct, for Jesus in this verse calls them "Children of hell". It reads, "Woe unto you scribes and pharisees, Hypocrites! For ye compass sea and land to make one Proselyte, and when he is made ye make him twofold more the "child of hell" than yourselves."
It may be well to mention here that the scribes and pharisees of Matthew, Mark, and Luke are the same people that are called Jews in John and the Acts of the Apostles.
Now to continue in John, 8th chapter, verse 3 1. Again the Word, affirms these to be Jews, for it reads, "Then said Jesus to those Jews that believed on him, if ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed, and ye shall know the truth, and the. truth, shall make you free. They answered him, we be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?"
In this verse just read, these Jews claimed descendancy from Abraham, This Jesus confirmed, for in verse 37, He said, "I know that ye are Abraham's seed." But then as now one should look at and study very carefully and critically any statement that a Jew would make, for no number of lies will ever make a truth. So let us analyze, their above statement. The Jews claim to be Israelites or the seed and progeny of Israel. This is an absolute untruth, for in reality they are the offspring of the devil or serpent. That is why Jesus, in Matthew 23:32:and 33, said unto them, "Fill ye up the measure of your fathers. Ye serpents, ye generation. of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?"
Jesus was pointing right back to their family tree when He mentioned their fathers, also the word 'generation' if translated 'race' would have been correct.

Now to analyze Jesus' statement, "I know that ye are Abraham's seed." In many instances the Children of Israel married or had children by Canaanitish women. Also, Judah, one of the sons of Israel, married a Canaanite woman, and there was one surviving seed of this unholy union whose name was Shelah. In Genesis 46:10 Simeon, another son of Israel, had a son whose name was Shaul by one of the women of this devil race. Should any of the descendants of either Shaul or Shelah have been standing before Jesus, they could have truthfully claimed Abraham in their ancestral lineage.
King Solomon had Canaanite wives, and after the tribe of Judah's seventy-year, sojourn in Babylon, they returned to the land of Canaan and many of them committed fornication by taking wives of this devil-sired race-, even though God, had forbidden intermarriage with them.
In Deuteronomy 7:1 God mentions the seven Canaanitish nations, and knowing them to be the seed and progeny of the Devil, God gives commandment concerning them. Beginning at verse 2 Moses says: "And when the Lord thy God shall deliver them before thee, thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them: thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them; neither shalt thou make marriages with them; thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son; nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son.
It would be difficult, indeed, for those who foster and propagate the fatherhood-of-God and the brotherhood-of-man myth to explain what has just been quoted.
In verse 33 of John 8, these Jews said, "We were never in bondage to any man." Should they have been Israelites, they could not truthfully have made this statement; for all twelve tribes were in bondage in Egypt, and at a later time the 'Ten tribes were@ taken into Assyrian captivity under Shalmanezer. And at an even later date, Nebuchadnezzar,, King of Babylon, took 'Two-Tribes Judah' and brought them into servitude under the Babylonians.. At the time that they said that they had never been in bondage, they, were even then serving under the Romans.
The Jew's ancestral name used in olden times was Canaanite. The name Jew does not appear in Scriptures until the time of Ahaz, King of Israel, who, according to chronology, reigned from 3264 until 3280 after the fall of Adam, or from 736 to 720 B.C. This should prove that they lived many centuries before but were known by another name. The first mention of Jews is in II Kings 16:6 and reads: "At that time Resin, king of Syria, recovered Elath to Syria, and drove the Jews from Elath ..." Good definitions for the word Jew is peddler, trafficker, and in Civil War days they were called "Carpet-baggers". The name is also used to depict the rejected remnant, or "evil figs" of Jeremiah, chapter 24. Nebuchadnezzar knew them well enough that he would not allow them to be brought as captives into Babylon.
Though they steadfastly deny that they are Canaanites, they seem unable to explain why a certain passage is written in their Talmud, which reads-. "Five things has Canaan recommended to his sons: when you go to war do not go as the first, but as the last so that you may return at the first, love each other-, love the robbery, hate your masters-, and never tell the truth." This is from Q Pecashim F 113b. If these Jews are the seed of Abraham as they claim, why are they interested in obeying what Canaan recommended to his sons? The Canaanites were an olden people at the time of Abraham's birth, for when God called Abraham to leave his fathers house to go to another place the scriptures state: "...And the Canaanite was then in the land. Genesis 12:6.
Thinking students of the Bible are wondering what authority there is and where it is found for the supplanting of the name Israel by the name Jew. Jesus likely had this in mind when He accused those in power of taking away the key of knowledge. He was definitely speaking of this Canaanitish element who had wormed their way into positions of power and trust when He said in Matthew 11:12; "And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force." The seed and progeny of the violent one, by fair means or otherwise, were serving from Chief Priests to Scribes
as interpreters, to the executors of the Law.
In Deuteronomy 14:1, God, talking to the children of Israel, said, "Ye are the children of the Lord your God." God, who declares these children of Israel to be His offspring, tells them to smite and utterly destroy these Canaanites. I wonder what father among us would advocate the destruction of one of his sons by an-other so related?

In Deuteronomy 7:3 God forbad Israel from marrying into this corrupt Canaanite race when He said: "Thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nol- his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son." In verse 6 God lets us know why, or at least in part, when He further says, "For thou are an 'holy people' unto the Lord thy God; the Lord hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth."
At this point we want to state that Mr. Lincoln, in his Gettysburg Address, was not speaking either the mind, or the words, or God when he asserted "that all men are created equal"; for a certainty the bible teaches no such theory, but rather the very opposite.
Ezra 9:1 and 2 confirms that when the tribe of Judah returned to Palestine after their seventy-year sojourn in Babylon they began to marry into this corrupt and cursed devil race. It reads: "Now when these things were done, the princes came to me saying, The people of Israel, and the priests, and the Levites, have not separated themselves from the people of the lands, doing according to their abominations, even of the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Jebusites, the Ammonites, the Moabites, the Egyptians and the Amorites. For they have taken of their daughters for themselves, and for their sons: so that the 'holy seed' have mingled themselves with the people of those lands: yea, the hand of the princes and rulers have been chief in this trespass."
Should we continue here, we would find that there have been many children born to these unholy unions' and upon confession and repentance before God, those 'of Israel, the holy seed, put away or divorced, their Canaanite husbands or wives, as well as the children that were born of them, thus staying the fierce anger of God. Should any of the descendants of these God ¬rejected people have been standing before Jesus, they too could have traced their lineage back to Abraham.
In John 8:42, Jesus said, "If God were your father ye would love me; for I proceeded forth and came from God: neither came I of myself, but He sent me.' Why do ye not understand my speech? Even because ye cannot hear my words."
In verse 42, Jesus denied that God was their father, then in verse 44 He lifts the Veil and in unmistakable words He declares that the Devil was their father, for here it says: "Ye are 'of' your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murder from the beginning and abode not in the truth: because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own; for he is a liar, and the father of it.”
It is indeed strange that one can read any pedigree or bill of sale and very readily and unmistakably understand what it means. Should one read the pedigree of a horse, and in it would be "she is of Black Gold and Meadow Queen", we would know immediately and without question that she was sired by Black Gold and born of Meadow Queen.
But God, the author of all languages and wisdom, can state that "Cain was of that wicked one" or "ye are of your father the devil"; but for us to intimate or teach that God declares Cain, and those to whom Jesus was talking, as being the begotten progeny of the devil, makes the Bible libelous and God immoral.
Again this confirms Cain's parentage when Jesus stated "he was a murderer from the beginning" for Cain was the murderer in the beginning. Also Cain was the man of sin that Paul refers to in II Thessalonians 2:3 when he writes: "Let no man deceive you by any means: for ¬that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son 'of' perdition". Yes, it is now confirmed that those who have usurped the title, Israel and God's Chosen People are in reality 'the seed of the serpent or children of perdition."

Immediately after Cain slew Abel, we read that God rebuked and cursed Cain. In Genesis 4,11 we read: "And now art thou cursed from the earth which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand; when thou tillest the ground, it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength; a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth." According to this, Cain and his seed were to be fugitives which, are those fleeing from deserved punishment; and vagabonds, which Webster defines as "without fixed habitation", "a vagrant" or a "scamp". Luke writes of some "vagabonds" in The Acts 19:13. Let Lis 'See if they, in any wise, could be linked with Cain or his progeny. It says, "Then certain of the vagabond Jews, exorcists, took upon them to call over them which had evil spirits the name of the Lord Jesus, saying, we adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preacheth."
This was Satan trying to cast out Satan, but as it was with the Rosenbergs, Julius and Ethel, sometimes they are unable to get away with their treasonable acts. The fate of the Rosenbergs we know, so let us see what happened to these vagabond Jews. Acts 19:14, 15, and 16.
"And there was seven sons of one Speva, a Jew, and chief of the Priests, which did so. And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know-, but who are ye? And the man in whom the evil spirit was, leaped on them, and overcame them, so that they fled out of the house naked and wounded."
In Genesis 4:11 we heard God say to Cain that to him the ground was cursed and that it would not produce its strength for him. This is doubtlessly one excellent reason why we do not see Jews tilling the soil or following the trade of farming. The latter part of Cain...", for unless it be removed by Genesis 4:15 states: "...And the Lord set a mark upon surgery, it is impossible for him to hide the mark of Cain upon his face. Isaiah, having knowledge of this, wrote, "The shew of their countenance doth witness against them," Isaiah 3:9.
Beginning with Matthew 23:29 we read- "Woe unto you Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites: because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchers of the righteous, And say, if we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets."
At this point Jesus puts a very grievous indictment against them when He said-. "Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves that ye are the children of them that killed the prophets."
Jesus here confirms that these that stood before Him were the seed and progeny of those who in all times past had been the enemies of both God and man.
Paul, in I Thessalonians 2:14 and 15 states: "For ye brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judea are in Christ Jesus: for 'Ye' also suffered like things of 'your own' countrymen, even as 'they' have of the 'Jews': who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their ¬own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men."
Matthew 23:32: "Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets and wise men, and scribes-, and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues and persecute them from city to city: that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, son of Barachias, whom 'ye' slew between the temple and the altar."
Here Jesus charges these Jews with all the righteous blood shed upon the earth from that of first-slain Abel by Cain to the recent slaying of Zacharias, the son of Barachias. Jesus could not have 'justly charged these Jews with the blood of Abel had they not been the seed and progeny of Cain.
In John 6:70, Jesus said, "Have not I chosen you twelve and one of you is a devil?" Jesus definitely calls Judas Iscariot a devil and confirms that he is of a race of devils when He mentions his earthly progenitor. It reads, "He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him..."
Also in Acts 13:6 we read: "And when they had gone through the isle unto Pathos, they found a certain sorcerer, a false prophet, a Jew, whose name was Bar Jesus: which was with the deputy of the country, Sergius Paulus, a prudent man; who called for Barnabus and Saul, and desired to hear the word of God. But Elymas the sorcerer (for so is his name by interpretation) withstood them, seeking to turn away the deputy from the faith. Then Saul, (who 9 also is called Paul,) filled with the Holy Ghost, set his eyes on him, and said, 0 full of all subtlety and mischief, thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord?"

Again we hear of a Jew being linked with the devil's offspring for this time it says, "thou child of the devil." Then Paul further states, "wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord?" Again we observe that the Jew's inherent nature is to destroy truth by making it appear false or questionable and a falsehood he will Just as ardently try to make appear as the truth.
Let us again turn to and read our subject verse- "And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed: it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel."
Here God declares that the woman's seed would bruise the serpent's head. The seed and progeny of Adam is called the woman's seed; yet, God, when talking with Abraham, referred to a specific or singular seed when He said: "And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed: because thou hast obeyed my voice." Genesis 22:18! Jesus Christ was this one singular seed as He was the "only begotten Son of God". Thus He was the seed of the woman for man had not part in placing, this seed in the womb of Mary. He was called the son of man because God chose that He should be born through the Adamic race, or the race of man as the word 'Adam' and 'man' mean exactly the same.
Paul, in Galatians 3:16 says: "Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He said not, and to seeds, as of many: but as of one, and to thy seed which is Christ". So when we see Christ, the woman's seed, born of Mary who was of the pure lineage of Adam, suspended upon the cross, It is complete fulfillment of Genesis 3:15; I for those that were able to accomplish this bruising, could be none other than the "serpent's seed." In many places the Bible declares the Jews to be His murders.
1 Thessalonians 2:14 and 15 says: "...even as they have of the Jews; who both killed the Lord Jesus and their own prophets" Also in Acts 10:39, "And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:" Him God raised up..."
Let us see who the Jew admits himself to be. In the publication "Liberal Judaism", January, 1949, there is an article entitled, "Liberal Judaism and Israel" written by one of their greatest and most renowned Rabbis, Dr. Abba Hillel Silver. Dr. Silver, writing, about the then new State of Israel, says:
... The third commonwealth of the Jewish Nation is thus an accomplished fact. The State of Israel exists."
"As a result the concept of the wandering Jew is bound eventually to disappear along with the term (galut) exile. All nations send forth immigrants to all parts of the world. People are continually moving from one country to another, and change their citizenship, but they are not regarded as exiles."
"This fact alone--the end of national exile for the Jewish people, as such--is destined to affect favorably the psyche of the Jew throughout the world. It will endow the Jew, wherever he lives, with a self respect and a sense of security, a normal tone, long-wanting in Jewish experience. For the curse of Cain, the curse of being an outcast and a wanderer over the face of the earth has been removed..."
Another source of much information is the Talmud, here are a few quotations from it. "The teachings of the Talmud stand above all other laws. They are more important than the law of Moses." This is a direct quotation of Rabbi Ismael. Rabbi Menachem wrote, "The decisions of the Talmud are words of the living God. Jehovah, Himself, asks the opinion of the early Rabbis when there are difficult affairs in heaven."
"To communicate anything to a goy about our religious relations would be equal to the killing
of all Jews, for if the goyim knew what we teach about they would kill us openly." Libbre David 39. Goy and Goyim are words meaning "non-Jewish".
"The Jews are human beings but the nations of the world are not human beings but beasts" Baba Meca 11, 6.
"Jehovah created the non-Jew in human form so that the Jew would not have to be served by beasts. The non-Jew is consequently an animal in human form and condemned to serve the Jew day and night." Midrasch Talploth, p, 225L.

The Jews claim long and loud that they are Israelites, yet this learned Jewish Rabbi admits that the curse that God spoke against Cain and his issue was upon the Jewish race. Surely any Bible student would know that no Israelite ever sprang from the loins of Cain, and any Jew that claims to be an Israelite in nearly all cases are liars, for their origin was not with God. Hear a part of a conversation between Jesus and some of his disciples, Matthew 15:12 and 13. "Then came his disciples, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying? But he answered and said, every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up." Jesus, here denied that they were a planting of God.
In the California Jewish Voice, a publication, dated August 17, 1956, there is an article which we think should be at least mentioned in part. It says: "The Jews in all parts of the world are members of a Mediterranean racial group having distinct genetic factors not found among non-Jews, two Israeli scientists reported here this week-end at the first International Congress of human genetics.
The Israeli scientists, Dr. Leo Sachs of the Weismann Institute, and Dr. M, Bat-Miriam of the Israel Institute for Biological Research, used fingerprint patterns in their investigations. After examining 4,000 prints of immigrants to Israel from Poland, Germany, Iraq, Egypt, Morocco, Yemen, Bulgaria, and Turkey, the scientists found a unique pattern of loops, whirls, and arches which could not be found in samples of fingerprints of non-Jews which they studied."
There is no authority in all the Bible for the supplanting of the name Israel by the word Jew. However, where the name Jew appears, should the name Israel be used, it would in most instances be correct. Both Revelation 2:9 and 3:9 are excellent examples. With this change, notice how factual the verses become. "Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan which say they are Israel, and are not, but do lie..." and "I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou are rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Israel, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan".
If, in Romans 3:1 and 2, the name Israel had been used instead of the name Jew, the statement would have been correct; for to Israel, not the Jews, was the oral Word given at Sinai.
In a final word of exhortation: an idea, thought, or concept that is adverse to the Bible or teaching of God is indeed a dangerous thing: so, should this treatise bear the image of truth, it would be well to ponder and study it farther for the Bible to many should become a new and meaningful book. This has doubtlessly answered many here-to-fore-unanswered questions.
As Balaam says in Numbers 23:8: "How can I curse whom God hath not cursed! or ¬how can I defy whom God hath not defied." Isaiah 5:20 should restrain us when e says: "Woe unto them that call evil good and good evil..."
Jude 3 and 4: "Beloved, when I cave all diligence to write unto you, of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints."
"For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ".
In Matthew 23:27 Jesus is talking to some Jews here called Scribes and Pharisees. It reads, "Ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchers of the righteous..." It is indeed amazing how perfectly this depicts the Jew of our day as they cheat, swindle, and will stop at nothing short of murder to gain their desired objective. They must sit in on every conference and have spies in every organization. As it is in the present race problem they pose as being sympathetic to both sides, while in reality,. they are there primarily to cause friction and distrust between all factions. As the name serpent implies, they are liable to be anywhere and it anytime, ready to strike and slither away into hiding letting what they have started take its course. They are the invisible makers of wars and creators of crises. By coercion and intimidation they are able to impose their wills upon whole populace, and when Presidents or Kings go contrary to their precepts, they, by drawing tight the strings of their purse and withholding credit, are able to bring either panic or depression.
The admonition given us by Paul in II Cor. 6:14:18 fits most aptly when he says:

"Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, and will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty."

[gruden2.0]

Wrong again. Yes it is true that Lehi & Nephi kept records, as any of us are strongly urged to keep journals for various benefits to ourselves and our posterity. But you forget that in Lehi's & Nephi's cases, Lehi was already given the gift of visions and prophesy, and already had prophesied to the rulers of the Jews, who then sought to kill him. He also prophesied/blessed that Nephi was going to be his successor, the ruler over his family because of righteousness, and his oldest brothers' rebellions. Once this family removed itself from Jerusalem, and later from Laban & Lemuel... Lehi, then Nephi became the undisputed spiritual authorities for their colonies. They knew their families (including Ishmael were to become a people in a promised land - for that purpose they wrote their visions and experiences.

So sure are you? Lehi wasn't even the presiding authority in Jerusalem, Jeremiah was. There were others doing the same thing he was. The scriptures are littered with references to 'prophets' who came to warn, without us never knowing who they were or even their names. What was their calling? How are they different from the missionaries sent out to teach and warn today? They had their priesthood and their divine calling. So do we.

Lehi and Nephi were patriarchs of their family. Men today can be patriarchs of their respective families. There is no difference. You are creating an exception where there is none. Any person under the influence of the Spirit can write scripture. I suppose that thought really scares some who like things kept rigidly defined. I suppose that limits our responsibility, but it also limits learning opportunities. We are supposed to teach each other.

You missed my point about individual truths...you say that can contradict accepted truths...I say they cannot contradict REVEALED truths, which are often a different thing...and they will not contradict doctrinal truths in such a manner that is to be taken as widely-held repudiation of the revealed truth & doctrine. Any individual revelation that contradicts revealed doctrine better be for the individual in that circumstance, and not to given or held to replace the revealed truth. The only one in that position to do so, is the Lord's prophet, not KOZ or anyone else posting here.

I did not miss it. What you just posted is an accepted truth by many, that there are never contradictions. I tell you there are. There are paradoxes in the scripture, and many great ones have confronted them, and became greater by overcoming them. If you need me to spell them out I can, but it would be far better for you to discover it for yourself.

I will not provide the details, but I will tell you that years ago I was given a dream and a paradox was revealed, and I responded just as you have by insisting it could not be so. I was left to ponder it for myself, and I finally came to understand it. Paradoxes are very real, and they exist, I believe, to prevent people from harming themselves by learning of things that they are not ready to learn.

I am not going to try and convince you or anyone of the things spoken of in this thread or other similar ones. I don't know about all things in here, but I know some of it, and I know of some related things not discussed, and they are true. You will find them when you are ready.

If the moderators are watching (as I'm sure they are), now would be a good point to lock this thread. I think it's fair to say there's been ample food for thought already and arguing about it further will help no one.

[[email protected]]

[iamse7en]

I will agree that BY said those things. I have studied it too, and am well aware of it.

I was under the impression you agreed with Elden Watson's interpretation of what BY taught, which just completely falls flat when you read what he taught.

[firend]

I will agree that BY said those things. I have studied it too, and am well aware of it.

I was under the impression you agreed with Elden Watson's interpretation of what BY taught, which just completely falls flat when you read what he taught.

I agree that Brigham said those things. The interpretation can vary as we can see on this forum.

I have noticed a pattern. People who believe Adam/God or MMP or Wife saving doctrine, etc all rely heavily on man quotes first, not scripture. After they utilize the man quotes then they turn to scripture. This is backwards.

Scripture should be used first, then we compare what Joseph Smith had to say, and then on to Brigham. This was we keep a solid foundation as we build our way up.

[NoGreaterLove]

Sorry Zion
But I am not in agreement with most of what you teach on this subject. But I am going to forgo commenting further on this subject because it will cause us to tread very sacred material that should not be discussed here.

[AshleyB]

[HeirofNumenor]

lol. I don't get much of what he says. I don't buy into any of this stuff, because it isn't made clear by the prophets, but this back and forth is at least entertaining to read. And I like Heiro's rebuttals. They're funny. And firend, I am not a fundamentalist; I am just honest about what BY said.

LOL I am glad I could entertain you...

[HeirofNumenor]

Even if you don't agree with everything that KOZ says that is no reason to go accusing someone of being ex communicated soon.

Fair enough. He may not be excommunicated SOON...He may already have been ex'ed, or else never was LDS. You are right - I don't know. But the things he has written certainly gives me concern...

This is my first concern (regarding his latest lengthy post):

A non-LDS paper on the cursed seed that many here say does not exist [offered here for more food for thought]:
THE SEED OF THE SERPENT
By an Unknown Author

Basing your argument on non-LDS sources to explain (what you are claiming is) LDS doctrine, by an unknown author whom you don't even know so we cannot check sources or context compared to his/her other writings....only scriptural references are from the Bible, yet there is so much more to all of this doctrine and questions found in the other LDS scriptures...

But let's deal with some of the main points of this article, presented as evidence Lucifer had children:

1) The author cites many references to thy seed (of Satan), of Children of the devil, the devil is your father, etc....in every instances, the speaker is to those who FOLLOW Satan: i.e., Satan is your master, he is your leader, he is effectively your father, because you follow him instead of following God, etc. The Book of Mormon is more clear on this...a good example is in Alma 54:11, when Captain Moroni calls the Lamanite king a child of Hell:

11 But behold, it supposeth me that I talk to you concerning these things in vain; or it supposeth me that thou art a child of hell;

Alma 30
53 But behold, the devil hath deceived me; for he appeared unto me in the form of an angel, and said unto me: Go and reclaim this people, for they have all gone astray after an unknown God. And he said unto me: There is no God; yea, and he taught me that which I should say. And I have taught his words; and I taught them because they were pleasing unto the carnal mind; and I taught them, even until I had much success, insomuch that I verily believed that they were true; and for this cause I withstood the truth, even until I have brought this great curse upon me.
60 And thus we see the end of him who perverteth the ways of the Lord; and thus we see that the devil will not support his children at the last day, but doth speedily drag them down to hell.

Jacob 7
14 And I said unto him: What am I that I should tempt God to show unto thee a sign in the thing which thou knowest to be true? Yet thou wilt deny it, because thou art of the devil. Nevertheless, not my will be done; but if God shall smite thee, let that be a sign unto thee that he has power, both in heaven and in earth; and also, that Christ shall come. And thy will, O Lord, be done, and not mine.
18 And he spake plainly unto them, that he had been deceived by the power of the devil. And he spake of hell, and of eternity, and of eternal punishment.

Jesus does the reverse: He considers us to be children of Christ; He refers to us as His sons (and daughters) - because we follow Him, NOT because we are physical descendants of Jesus.

Doctrine and Covenants 34:1-3 (to Orson Pratt)
1 My son Orson, hearken and hear and behold what I, the Lord God, shall say unto you, even Jesus Christ your Redeemer;

2 The alight and the life of the world, a light which shineth in darkness and the darkness comprehendeth it not;

3 Who so loved the world that he gave his own life, that as many as would believe might become the sons of God. Wherefore you are my son;

Doctrine and Covenants 35:2
2 I am Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who was crucified for the sins of the world, even as many as will believe on my name, that they may become the sons of God, even one in me as I am one in the Father, as the Father is one in me, that we may be one.

Doctrine and Covenants 39:4
4 But to as many as received me, gave I power to become my sons; and even so will I give unto as many as will receive me, power to become my sons.

2) LDS are pretty much the only people on this earth who do NOT think Adam & Eve were kicked out of Eden for having sex. In fact, LDS doctrine says that they and all animals could NOT have sex or have children, or die - knowledge, blood, and death had not entered the world yet. I did a study for my Master's in Biblical & Political studies comparing the various christian beliefs about the Fall of Adam & Eve. All but LDS blamed it on Eve, and having sex. Why? Because the first one to push this was St. Augustine. The major playboy who slept with nearly every woman (and some men and even animals) that he could find back in the late 300's AD. He was the Wilt Chamberlain/Gene Simmons of his century. His mother was a Christian, and begged him to be baptized before she died. Finally, while depressed about the sorry state of his life (hallow and empty for all how give into such sins and the quantity thereof). He decided to go abstinent, get baptized, and since his conversion gave him joy, he became an enthusiastic promoter of Christianity (later to be declared a saint).
Problem: Because of his sexual sins...he blamed everything on the physical temptations of the flesh. When did sex first appear? With Adam and Eve? Oh! Eve was blamed for eating the fruit and they were ashamed because they found out they were naked (not considering they were innocent and ashamed in this case meant they were embarrassed because their modesty kicked in) - they must of had sex! It's all Eve's fault! Let's blame the woman! Hey...women tempted Augustine because of their beauty and curves - it's all their fault! (never considering that his own heart, mind, and lack of self-control had anything to do with it).
The later Catholic and Protestant theologians didn't change much....ultimately, by John Calvin's day (1500's), sex itself was not grievously evil, but it was a dirty, but necessary function in order to have children. A curse that must be endured...and in heaven - their will be no sex because sex is of the body, and only spiritual things will exist. And Eve was still guilty of somehow enticing Adam to commit sexual sin with her.

3) The author twists Tree to mean race. Here we find a variation on a blatantly racist theme...that the Negros are the blood descendants of Satan. Here Satan/Serpent has sex with Eve, had Cain (not form Adam obviously)...and Cains offspring are the blacks. Usually when I read this on various Neo-Nazi groups religious literature - usually they say that Satan took control of the ape, and the ape had sex with Eve, and therefore you get Cain, and the black race. Either of these variations are enough to reject this on it's face.
While beguiled CAN lead to seduction, it generally does not equal sexual relations. Usually beguiled & seduced means to deceive, to flatter, to weaken one's moral consciences into doing something wrong that they normally wouldn't do.

2 Kings 21:9
9 But they hearkened not: and Manasseh seduced them to do more evil than did the nations whom the Lord destroyed before the children of Israel.

Isaiah 19:13
13 The princes of Zoan are become fools, the princes of Noph are deceived; they have also seduced Egypt, even they that are the stay of the tribes thereof.

Helaman 6:38
38 And it came to pass on the other hand, that the Nephites did build them up and support them, beginning at the more wicked part of them, until they had overspread all the land of the Nephites, and had seduced the more part of the righteous until they had come down to believe in their works and partake of their spoils, and to join with them in their secret murders and combinations.

Doctrine and Covenants 46:7
7 But ye are commanded in all things to ask of God, who giveth liberally; and that which the Spirit testifies unto you even so I would that ye should do in all holiness of heart, walking uprightly before me, considering the end of your salvation, doing all things with prayer and thanksgiving, that ye may not be seduced by evil spirits, or doctrines of devils, or the commandments of men; for some are of men, and others of devils.

1 Timothy 4:1
1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

4) The author then moves on to linking the Jews to be the literal offspring of Satan. His evidences are:
a) Paul, and other New Testament writers calling Jews "children of God". I already answered this in 1).
b) Jews rejected Jesus
c) Jews view the Talmaud as higher than the Law of Moses, or the writings of the prophets. The author takes this as evidence of Anti-Christ. I take this as evidence the Jews don't want to study and remember that all through the Old Testament that Israel (Northern Kingdom), and Judah (Southern Kingdom), were constantly scolded by God's prophets for being sinners, let alone remember the prophets warned them they would be destroyed for their sins and abominations (idolatry/massive immorality and child sacrifice were chief among them).
d) various Jews throughout history and definitely in modern society (particularly Hollywood - my comment) have been anti-Christ
e) Jews are basically responsible for all the secret combinations of the world that control society and governments. While it is true that many Jews are leaders in those secret combinations, there is no evidence that Jews created these secret combinations to enslave the world in the name of Jewry for the benefit of the Jews. This idea is straight from the Protoccols of the Learned Elders of Zion - a forgery by those close to Czar Nicholas II.

By this logic (Satan/serpent had sex with eve, gave birth to Cain...cursed...Jews are literally children of Satan....)
By this logic, since Mary, the mother of Jesus was a Jewish girl....doesn't that make Jesus Christ the literal blood descendant of Satan?

So much for God, Jesus, Adam all being the same.

This much is clear:
The author mistakes a metaphor: children of Satan/child of the devil for literal blood ancestry.
The author is dead set that Adam & Eve had sexual sin in Eden, and Eve was at fault.
The author mistakes the literal word "Tree" for a metaphor "race".
The author is a racist, or at least writes as one...claiming Jews are the children of Satan (no different from those who claim Blacks are the offspring of Cain - child from a sexual union of Eve and an ape(controlled by Satan).



Be careful of the sources you use to support your arguments. If you believe what this author writes, then you are as mistaken and racist as he is. All of these points the author makes are repudiated by LDS doctrine.

[Elizabeth]

Thank you for your wisdom HeirofNumenor