The basic scenario found in D&C 112 is also supported by a dream or vision President John Taylor had regarding the calamities of the last days. The events in his vision seem to have been given to him in chronological order, beginning in Salt Lake City, the headquarters of “the Lord’s house.” Notice the situation President Taylor observes in Salt Lake City.
I was immediately in Salt Lake City wandering about the streets in all parts of the city and on the door of every house I found a badge of mourning, and I could not find a house but what was in mourning. I passed by my own house and saw the same sign there, and asked, “Is that me that is dead?” Something gave me answer, “No you’ll live through it all.”
It seemed strange to me that I saw no person on the street in my wandering about through the city. They seemed to be in their houses with their sick and dead. I saw no funeral procession, or any thing of that kind, but the city looked vary still and quiet as though the people were praying and had control of the disease whatever it was. I then looked in all directions over the territory, east, west, north and south and I found the same mourning in every place throughout the land. (Wilford Woodruff’s Journal, June 5, 1878, underline added. See also Unpublished Revelations, pp.119-123.)
It is interesting to note that although President Taylor witnesses great distress and mourning in Salt Lake City, his impression is that “the people were praying and had control of the disease whatever it was.” This seems to contradict some who believe that Salt Lake City will be completely destroyed in the last days. It suggests that there will be those who, through prayer and righteousness, will survive and overcome these early calamities pronounced upon the Lord’s house.
President Taylor’s dream continues in what appears to be chronological order:
The next I knew I was just this side of Omaha. It seemed as though I was above the earth, looking down on it as I passed along on my way east. I saw the roads full of people, principally women, with just what they could carry in bundles on their backs traveling to the mountains on foot. And I wondered how they could get there, with nothing but a small pack upon their backs. It was remarkable to me that there were so few men among them. It did not seem as though the cars were running. The rails looked rusty and the road abandoned and I have no conception how I traveled myself. (Ibid.)
If the calamities of the last days are to come mostly upon the wicked, then we have reason to believe that these people spoken of by John Taylor were spared because of their righteousness. That said, it is significant that these people were traveling towards the mountains, not away from them. They were going towards Salt Lake City, not towards Jackson County. These are apparently righteous people who were headed to a place they considered to be safe – a place they were likely instructed to go by the Lord. This suggests that the Rocky Mountains will become a safe haven for the righteous who survive these difficulties.
President Taylor continues to travel east in his dream, witnessing “horrid” sites in Missouri, Illinois, Washington D.C., Baltimore, Philadelphia, and New York. Then, after seeing the massive destruction along the east coast, he returns to the states of Missouri and Illinois, which he now found “were a complete wilderness with no living human being in them.” At this point he sees the beginnings of the building of the New Jerusalem and rejoices in it.
Interestingly enough, the dream ends with him back in Utah.
Instantly I found I was in the Tabernacle at Ogden and yet I could see the building going on [in Jackson County] and I got quite animated in calling to the people in the Tabernacle to listen to the beautiful music that the angels were singing. I called to them to look at the angels as the house seemed to be full of them and they were saying the same words that I heard before “Now is the Kingdom of Our God and His Christ established forever and ever.” And then a voice said, “Now shall come to pass that which was spoken by Isaiah the prophet, That seven women shall take hold of on man saying etc…” (Ibid.)
Notice that the dream ends in Utah under favorable circumstances. That this is the Utah of the post-calamity period receives support from at least two remarks. The first is that President Taylor is still viewing the building of Zion in Jackson County and is trying to call the people’s attention to it. It is as though it is still happening while he is in the tabernacle at Ogden. The second bit of evidence comes from the mentioning of Isaiah’s prophecy being fulfilled. This is clearly a reference to an event that will not happen until after the calamities, not before. The voice heard by President Taylor seems to be saying, “Now that the wicked have been swept off the earth, the saints in Utah have recovered, and the New Jerusalem is being built, Isaiah’s prophecy about plural marriage will be fulfilled.”
Not only does this dream collaborate with the story in D&C 112, it also indicates that the calamities which begin at the Lord’s house in Utah will eventually be controlled and recovered from in Utah, and that the Utah region will become a safe haven for the righteous survivors. It indicates that there will be congregations of saints meeting together in Utah after the worst is over. Again, these issues should be considered when judging either the church, it’s members, or the region in which the church predominantly resides.
John Taylor’s Vision!!!!
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Matchmaker
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 2266
Re: John Taylor’s Vision!!!!
The part of his dream that causes me to pause is the part about Missouri and Illinois having no living humans there. Perhaps he is viewing primarily the big cities of Saint Louis, Kansas City, and Chicago. I admit there are a lot of wicked people there. However, so many wonderful people, LDS and otherwise, live in the suburbs and country towns outside of the big cities. In fact, the LDS Church is growing so fast in parts of Missouri that Wards are splitting and new chapels are going up to accommodate the growth. The Lord has a lot of righteous people to remove before the destruction, if that part of the prophecy is true. I doubt they are all going to have to go to Salt Lake City. Elder Holland said we will be staying put this time around. Maybe some can stay in Missouri.
If we can get enough righteous people living in Missouri, I am sure the Lord will provide a way to protect most of them, without asking them all to walk back to the Rocky Mountains. I heard one of the leaders from the new Ozark/Nixa, Mo., Ward mention on a video a couple of years back that many families had been inspired to come to that area, and that is one of the reasons they had to build a new chapel in Ozark.
Remember that the Lord will withhold some of these calamities, if the people repent. Let's pray that more do.
If we can get enough righteous people living in Missouri, I am sure the Lord will provide a way to protect most of them, without asking them all to walk back to the Rocky Mountains. I heard one of the leaders from the new Ozark/Nixa, Mo., Ward mention on a video a couple of years back that many families had been inspired to come to that area, and that is one of the reasons they had to build a new chapel in Ozark.
Remember that the Lord will withhold some of these calamities, if the people repent. Let's pray that more do.
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AI2.0
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 3917
Re: John Taylor’s Vision!!!!
I really want to believe that most members have good intentions and that when they share something like this, it is not to spread or contribute to falsehoods, so I'm going to assume that you will want to know the particulars on this so called 'John Taylor Vision'.
As I shared in another thread, the problem with believing this is a real vision is that it is anonymous. There is no evidence to tie it to John Taylor and therefore no reason to believe it's anything more than made up. And it seems the farther we get away from it, the more times it is resurrected and spread around again to a new generation of unaware LDS. If you want to believe it's 'true' you can do that, but please be honest about it. Please don't continue to spread the false notion that it is the vision of an LDS prophet. It was and still is, "anonymous" and so cannot enjoy the gravitas of claims it was a vision given to a prophet of God.
This link explains it:
http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2012/10/2 ... and-again/
In a nutshell, this 'vision' was shared among members of the church in the late 1870's, but it was anonymous. Initially people tried to tie it to Joseph F. Smith, but he denied it, an excerpt from his statement in the newspaper in 1880:
...."A copy of this document was to-day handed to me by a friend. Having read it, I deem it my duty to announce through the NEWS, that so far as this pretended vision has been connected with my name it is a fraud. I never had such a vision and am wholly ignorant of its author, and my name has been used in connection with it entirely without my knowledge."....
He also pointed out that he doesn't know more than 3 words of french. Still it didn't die. It continued to surface over the years and additional statements were made:
An excerpt from Pres. Smith's General Conf. address in 1918:
I suppose, a hundred times, when I have been inquired of about it. It was gotten up by some mysterious person who undertook to create a sensation and lay the responsibility upon me. I am not guilty. When the Lord reveals something to me, I will consider the matter with my brethren, and when it becomes proper, I will let it be known to the people, and not otherwise. …
Now, these stories of revelations that are being circulated around are of no consequence except for rumor and silly talk by persons that have no authority.
After Pres. Smith died his son, who was a member of the Quorum of 12, Joseph Fielding Smith had to take up the gauntlet:
There is a lying spirit abroad in the land. In my travels in the stakes of Zion, my attention has been called, on a number of occasions, to a purported revelation or vision or manifestation, whatever it may be called, supposed to have been received by President Smith sometime in the distant past, in regard to events of great importance dealing with the nations of the earth and the Latter-day Saints. Many things in that purported vision, or revelation, are absurd. My attention has been called to this thing, and good brethren and good sisters have inquired of me to know whether or not there was any truth in that which had come to their attention. It is in printed form; and I have been under the necessity of telling them that there was no truth in it. …
I want to say to you, my brethren and sisters, that if you understand the Church articles and covenants, if you will read the Scriptures and become familiar with those things which are recorded in the revelations from the Lord, it will not be necessary for you to ask any questions in regard to the authenticity or otherwise of any purported revelation, vision, or manifestation that proceeds out of darkness, concocted in some corner, surreptitiously presented, and not coming through the proper channels of the Church. Let me add that when a revelation comes for the guidance of this people, you may be sure that it will not be presented in some mysterious manner contrary to the order of the Church. It will go forth in such form that the people will understand that it comes from those who are in authority, for it will be sent either to the presidents of stakes and the bishops of the wards over the signatures of the presiding authorities, or it will be published in some of the regular papers or magazines under the control and direction of the Church, or it will be presented before such a gathering as this, at a general conference. It will not spring up in some distant part of the Church and be in the hands of some obscure individual without authority, and thus be circulated among the Latter-day Saints. Now, you may remember this. …
Now I maintain that there is no occasion for any member of this Church to have a doubt in his mind regarding matters of revelation as coming for the guidance of the Church, because when such things come they will come in the proper channels and be presented by those who are ordained to this calling, and who are known to the Church. Therefore, when you hear these rumors, you put it down that they are false, and it is absolutely unnecessary for you to ask the question of anyone, because you ought to know by the inspiration you have yourselves whether or not they are true. …
In 1931, Joseph Fielding Smith had to address this same 'vision':
making inquiry concerning a certain purported revelation said to have been given many years ago to President Joseph F. Smith, in which he saw the destruction of many great cities and many countries of the world and other very unusual things.....
Now, I think we are fortunate in having President Smith’s own expression in regard to these purported revelations. It seems strange to me that now, some twelve years later, we still find them in circulation. But the thing that astonishes me more is the fact that members of the Church seem to be bewildered and in wonderment whether or not these purported revelations were indeed given to the Prophet Joseph and to President Joseph F. Smith. ….
Who is it that is deceived in this Church? Not the man who has been faithful in the discharge of duty; not the man who has made himself acquainted with the word of the Lord; not the man who has practiced the commandments given in these revelations; but the man who is not acquainted with the truth, the man who is in spiritual darkness, the man who does not comprehend and understand the principles of the Gospel. Such a man will be deceived, and when these false spirits come among us he may not understand or be able to distinguish between light and darkness.
bold added for emphasis
So, for many years it was attributed to Joseph F. Smith. Now it is attributed to John Taylor. So, we have to ask; Is it a true vision, did someone really see it AND did it come from God or is it bogus? I don't know for certain, but considering that Joseph F. Smith and Joseph Fielding Smith both condemned it and the real author never came forward to claim it, I am inclined to believe it is a fraud.
I also think that these two wise men had some sound advice for us today, considering the many dreams and visions circulating today. We need to be a little bit more careful about accepting things on face value, but should study them out carefully, and if they do not come through the proper channels, we REALLY need to be careful about the claims made.
As I shared in another thread, the problem with believing this is a real vision is that it is anonymous. There is no evidence to tie it to John Taylor and therefore no reason to believe it's anything more than made up. And it seems the farther we get away from it, the more times it is resurrected and spread around again to a new generation of unaware LDS. If you want to believe it's 'true' you can do that, but please be honest about it. Please don't continue to spread the false notion that it is the vision of an LDS prophet. It was and still is, "anonymous" and so cannot enjoy the gravitas of claims it was a vision given to a prophet of God.
This link explains it:
http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2012/10/2 ... and-again/
In a nutshell, this 'vision' was shared among members of the church in the late 1870's, but it was anonymous. Initially people tried to tie it to Joseph F. Smith, but he denied it, an excerpt from his statement in the newspaper in 1880:
...."A copy of this document was to-day handed to me by a friend. Having read it, I deem it my duty to announce through the NEWS, that so far as this pretended vision has been connected with my name it is a fraud. I never had such a vision and am wholly ignorant of its author, and my name has been used in connection with it entirely without my knowledge."....
He also pointed out that he doesn't know more than 3 words of french. Still it didn't die. It continued to surface over the years and additional statements were made:
An excerpt from Pres. Smith's General Conf. address in 1918:
I suppose, a hundred times, when I have been inquired of about it. It was gotten up by some mysterious person who undertook to create a sensation and lay the responsibility upon me. I am not guilty. When the Lord reveals something to me, I will consider the matter with my brethren, and when it becomes proper, I will let it be known to the people, and not otherwise. …
Now, these stories of revelations that are being circulated around are of no consequence except for rumor and silly talk by persons that have no authority.
After Pres. Smith died his son, who was a member of the Quorum of 12, Joseph Fielding Smith had to take up the gauntlet:
There is a lying spirit abroad in the land. In my travels in the stakes of Zion, my attention has been called, on a number of occasions, to a purported revelation or vision or manifestation, whatever it may be called, supposed to have been received by President Smith sometime in the distant past, in regard to events of great importance dealing with the nations of the earth and the Latter-day Saints. Many things in that purported vision, or revelation, are absurd. My attention has been called to this thing, and good brethren and good sisters have inquired of me to know whether or not there was any truth in that which had come to their attention. It is in printed form; and I have been under the necessity of telling them that there was no truth in it. …
I want to say to you, my brethren and sisters, that if you understand the Church articles and covenants, if you will read the Scriptures and become familiar with those things which are recorded in the revelations from the Lord, it will not be necessary for you to ask any questions in regard to the authenticity or otherwise of any purported revelation, vision, or manifestation that proceeds out of darkness, concocted in some corner, surreptitiously presented, and not coming through the proper channels of the Church. Let me add that when a revelation comes for the guidance of this people, you may be sure that it will not be presented in some mysterious manner contrary to the order of the Church. It will go forth in such form that the people will understand that it comes from those who are in authority, for it will be sent either to the presidents of stakes and the bishops of the wards over the signatures of the presiding authorities, or it will be published in some of the regular papers or magazines under the control and direction of the Church, or it will be presented before such a gathering as this, at a general conference. It will not spring up in some distant part of the Church and be in the hands of some obscure individual without authority, and thus be circulated among the Latter-day Saints. Now, you may remember this. …
Now I maintain that there is no occasion for any member of this Church to have a doubt in his mind regarding matters of revelation as coming for the guidance of the Church, because when such things come they will come in the proper channels and be presented by those who are ordained to this calling, and who are known to the Church. Therefore, when you hear these rumors, you put it down that they are false, and it is absolutely unnecessary for you to ask the question of anyone, because you ought to know by the inspiration you have yourselves whether or not they are true. …
In 1931, Joseph Fielding Smith had to address this same 'vision':
making inquiry concerning a certain purported revelation said to have been given many years ago to President Joseph F. Smith, in which he saw the destruction of many great cities and many countries of the world and other very unusual things.....
Now, I think we are fortunate in having President Smith’s own expression in regard to these purported revelations. It seems strange to me that now, some twelve years later, we still find them in circulation. But the thing that astonishes me more is the fact that members of the Church seem to be bewildered and in wonderment whether or not these purported revelations were indeed given to the Prophet Joseph and to President Joseph F. Smith. ….
Who is it that is deceived in this Church? Not the man who has been faithful in the discharge of duty; not the man who has made himself acquainted with the word of the Lord; not the man who has practiced the commandments given in these revelations; but the man who is not acquainted with the truth, the man who is in spiritual darkness, the man who does not comprehend and understand the principles of the Gospel. Such a man will be deceived, and when these false spirits come among us he may not understand or be able to distinguish between light and darkness.
bold added for emphasis
So, for many years it was attributed to Joseph F. Smith. Now it is attributed to John Taylor. So, we have to ask; Is it a true vision, did someone really see it AND did it come from God or is it bogus? I don't know for certain, but considering that Joseph F. Smith and Joseph Fielding Smith both condemned it and the real author never came forward to claim it, I am inclined to believe it is a fraud.
I also think that these two wise men had some sound advice for us today, considering the many dreams and visions circulating today. We need to be a little bit more careful about accepting things on face value, but should study them out carefully, and if they do not come through the proper channels, we REALLY need to be careful about the claims made.
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AI2.0
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 3917
Re: John Taylor’s Vision!!!!
Some might wonder why it has been attributed to John Taylor. This 'vision' was found copied in wilford Woodruff's journal--it was circulating around among the members, just as other 'prophecies' and 'visions' happened to do at this time, just as in now. He explained he saw this curious thing and so wrote it down and left a space to write in the name of the author. It was never filled it. At first people tried to say it was Joseph F. Smith's 'vision' but he denied it publicly and pointed out that he didn't even know three words in french.
Decades later, after Joseph Fielding Smith (Joseph F.'s son who had also debunked the 'vision') was gone and no one was around to remind members that it had been called a fraud, it was once again pulled out and dusted off--I remember reading it in one of Roger Young's books. I think it was also printed in one of Dwayne Crowther's books. Since then, some LDS people who've had 'NDE's' have claimed to have seen things like it--but their credibility is in question, so that doesn't help support it IMO.
I suspect that either Young or Crowther may have started the notion that it was attributed to John Taylor--and why would they choose him? Because he spoke french. He'd served a french mission. And that's the reason it's been circulating for the last couple of decades as the 'John Taylor Vision'. Just remember that when it first showed up as an anonymous vision, John Taylor was alive and well serving as the prophet and could have put his name on that vision at any time--especially when Joseph F. Smith, his counselor in the First Presidency was denouncing it. But he didn't, because it wasn't his.
Decades later, after Joseph Fielding Smith (Joseph F.'s son who had also debunked the 'vision') was gone and no one was around to remind members that it had been called a fraud, it was once again pulled out and dusted off--I remember reading it in one of Roger Young's books. I think it was also printed in one of Dwayne Crowther's books. Since then, some LDS people who've had 'NDE's' have claimed to have seen things like it--but their credibility is in question, so that doesn't help support it IMO.
I suspect that either Young or Crowther may have started the notion that it was attributed to John Taylor--and why would they choose him? Because he spoke french. He'd served a french mission. And that's the reason it's been circulating for the last couple of decades as the 'John Taylor Vision'. Just remember that when it first showed up as an anonymous vision, John Taylor was alive and well serving as the prophet and could have put his name on that vision at any time--especially when Joseph F. Smith, his counselor in the First Presidency was denouncing it. But he didn't, because it wasn't his.
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Sarah
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 6727
Re: John Taylor’s Vision!!!!
Some good points are made here to argue against the authenticity of the alleged Taylor vison.
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Original_Intent
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 13076
Re: John Taylor’s Vision!!!!
Bery strange, a post in 2011, gets its first 4 replies in August 2017, and then the next response is December 2023.
A voice from the dust...
A voice from the dust...
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FrankOne
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 2937
Re: John Taylor’s Vision!!!!
stirred up from a current polygamy thread where Sarah responded.Original_Intent wrote: ↑December 1st, 2023, 8:26 pm Bery strange, a post in 2011, gets its first 4 replies in August 2017, and then the next response is December 2023.
A voice from the dust...
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logicalheart
- captain of 50
- Posts: 92
- Location: United States of America
Re: John Taylor’s Vision!!!!
I don’t see any problems with the vision, nor the attribution to John Taylor as the author. The main refutes are that it did not originate from Joseph F Smith, and that it was not a published revelation of the church. It could still have been a revelation to John. The record itself states that the author was reading the scriptures in French. And, that he was a church leader as referenced by the concern that the Ogden tabernacle congregation in the vision would ask him to speak at the pulpit.
