Remnant scriptures on Polygamy

[gclayjr]

Trueintent,

You don't understand George.... :ymblushing: ALL LAWS that require outward works are designed to reveal sins. Tithes, fasting, performance of ordinances, .....there is a spiritual tithe, a spiritual fast, a spiritual ordinance, i.e.baptism of fire. The pharisee were baptized, but christ said their baptism wasn't acceptable. WHY???

You are right. I don't understand. I will take it a step further. This looks like the gospel of TrueIntent! and It is completely incoherent! I agree that there are both physical ordinances, and spiritual components of those ordinances. I agree that Physical ordinances, without the spiritual component is hollow!, but

ALL LAWS that require outward works are designed to reveal sins. Tithes, fasting, performance of ordinances, .

is just BS.

OK I will confess. I pay a full tithe What sin of mine does that reveal???

Regards,

George Clay

[carbon dioxide]

Polygamy completely destroys the sanctity of womanhood and the dignity of women while essentially making property out of them and rendering the most beautiful of all of God's human emotions meaningless, which is love between two people.

This is simply your opinion. The scriptures however do not subscribe to this belief.

[Rensai]

Polygamy completely destroys the sanctity of womanhood and the dignity of women while essentially making property out of them and rendering the most beautiful of all of God's human emotions meaningless, which is love between two people.

This is simply your opinion. The scriptures however do not subscribe to this belief.

The prophet Jacob disagrees with you.

23 But the word of God burdens me because of your grosser crimes. For behold, thus saith the Lord: This people begin to wax in iniquity; they understand not the scriptures, for they seek to excuse themselves in committing whoredoms, because of the things which were written concerning David, and Solomon his son.

That's as plain as can be. Those who think the scriptures condone polygamy, don't understand them, they have wrested them and accepted the philosophies of men.

There's some interesting info about this topic here: http://downloads.miridiatech.com.s3.ama ... nogamy.pdf

[TrueIntent]

TrueIntent,

(What am I proving????....that taking your sister-in-law and making a baby with her as instructed in the law of Moses isn't because you are righteous...it is to reveal where you sin so that you can repent of your wickedness).

I can't even make any sense out of the last part of your sentence, here but, if it wasn't a law given by Jehovah, why didn't Christ admonish the Sadducees over the terrible evil and sin of polygamy instead of a more banal

9 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

??

If Polygamy was so bad, this would have been the perfect opportunity to admonish them. You throw out one Old Testament "Thus saith the Lord", and ignore time after time where it is accepted, or various blessing are given to plural marriages as if sanctioned, then imply that poor helpless God is just going along with the evil practices of men. He may punish Cain for murder, He may punish Saul for not waiting for a prophet to offer sacrifices, but heaven forbid he hurt Jacob's feelings by saying anything about his 4 wives. He will bless the world by having the descendants of Jacob bless the whole world, but he better not hurt Jacobs feelings by telling him that all this blessing of the world was done in his great sin, because God can work with that.

What poppycock!

Regards,

George Clay

You don't understand George....ALL LAWS that require outward works are designed to reveal sins. Tithes, fasting, performance of ordinances, .....there is a spiritual tithe, a spiritual fast, a spiritual ordinance, i.e.baptism of fire. The pharisee were baptized, but christ said their baptism wasn't acceptable. WHY??? Because they did the outward and not the inward. Christ taught that nothing the pharisees did was acceptable--it was all outward. They paid tithing perfectly (but they didn't keep the inward law of caring for their aging and dying parents). So it is, (if polygamy is a law)....It is an outward law. it is designed to reveal sins. Just as the story of Tamar, and all laws found within the Law of Moses. There is a higher law. It is the spiritual law. Its not...thou shalt not commit adultery...christ said....thou shalt not lust (this is the spiritual form of the law...the higher law). There are inward and outward laws. The higher law was to care for the widows and the fatherless....(*which is one of the things the saints claimed they were doing by taking wives.) They could have just done what the jews did, which was open the storehouse to the widows and fatherless (this is what was done in the old testament)...instead they had to take them as polygamist wives??????...even when they did, we can find in pioneer records that the wives weren't being cared for. We pay tithing, so that we can learn how to give when it matters...like taking care of your aging parents. We fast, so that we learn how to not let our carnal body rule our spiritual body, we perform ordinances, not so that we say we are holy or corrupt their meaning for our desires, but so that we can learn how to become holy. We perform polygamy...so that we can care for the widows????? nope....we love those in need, we pay tithes, so that when we find a widow in our midst, amongst our own families....we will choose the higher law, and care for them without any conditions....we will open our own storehouses....did you read the story of Tamar? The law of moses is holy...it came from God...to reveal those mens sins.....so that they could repent. That is the purpose of the law...to reveal sin. you wouldn't know what your sins were without the law (I'm quoting the apostle Paul when I say this)...everything Im saying is coming from the new testament...i just didn't list all the scriptures.

Btw, are you familiar with Moses being commanded to slaughter a bunch of people before they enter the promised land. You say that because something is in the Old testament that it is acceptable. Which is why you say polygamy is acceptable. But we don't we slaughter people in the church. You err in your understanding George. The scriptures are teaching lessons...not actions to be performed. if you want actions...then you are going to have to murder some people, rape some people, take wives and concubines..etc.....youre missing the message..the moral of the story...the moral of the story is to find out where we sin so that we can repent. The law reveals sin (Paul teaches this). The scriptures are used for both good and evil purposes. By you're same logic....polygamy is practiced, but not the murders???? come on now...give me something that doesnt contradict scripture or itself. Lot's daughters get him drunk and sleep with him.....we don't we teach that in the church? Come on...restoration of all things...means all things right.???? according to you...or does it just mean polygamy. You read the scriptures as outward works...I read them as lessons on Morality. You view the law as righteous because you obeyed. I view the law as righteous because it reveals to me how I sin, so that I can repent, and forsake my sins.

[TrueIntent]

Trueintent,

You don't understand George.... :ymblushing: ALL LAWS that require outward works are designed to reveal sins. Tithes, fasting, performance of ordinances, .....there is a spiritual tithe, a spiritual fast, a spiritual ordinance, i.e.baptism of fire. The pharisee were baptized, but christ said their baptism wasn't acceptable. WHY???

You are right. I don't understand. I will take it a step further. This looks like the gospel of TrueIntent! and It is completely incoherent! I agree that there are both physical ordinances, and spiritual components of those ordinances. I agree that Physical ordinances, without the spiritual component is hollow!, but

ALL LAWS that require outward works are designed to reveal sins. Tithes, fasting, performance of ordinances, .

is just BS.

OK I will confess. I pay a full tithe What sin of mine does that reveal???

Regards,

George Clay

Actually...its the gospel preached by Paul and Jesus. Ever heard of them?

Here are some Scriptures George...

12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. ...guess who says this...it's not Jesus.

But he does say this...

23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

42 But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

[TrueIntent]

Trueintent,

You don't understand George.... :ymblushing: ALL LAWS that require outward works are designed to reveal sins. Tithes, fasting, performance of ordinances, .....there is a spiritual tithe, a spiritual fast, a spiritual ordinance, i.e.baptism of fire. The pharisee were baptized, but christ said their baptism wasn't acceptable. WHY???

You are right. I don't understand. I will take it a step further. This looks like the gospel of TrueIntent! and It is completely incoherent! I agree that there are both physical ordinances, and spiritual components of those ordinances. I agree that Physical ordinances, without the spiritual component is hollow!, but

ALL LAWS that require outward works are designed to reveal sins. Tithes, fasting, performance of ordinances, .

is just BS.

OK I will confess. I pay a full tithe What sin of mine does that reveal???

Regards,

George Clay

Actually...its the gospel preached by Paul and Jesus. Ever heard of them?

John 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance JST (your traditions), but judge righteous judgment.

HERE IS THE TEACHINGS OF PAUL EXPLAINING WHY WE HAVE THE LAW....I will use his words...this has JST for you.

Galatians 3:19
19 Wherefore then, the law was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made in the law given to Moses, who was ordained by the hand of angels to be a mediator of this first covenant, (the law.)
20 Now this mediator was not a mediator of the new covenant; but there is one mediator of the new covenant, who is Christ, as it is written in the law concerning the promises made to Abraham and his seed. Now Christ is the mediator of life; for this is the promise which God made unto Abraham.

[TrueIntent]

Trueintent,

You don't understand George.... :ymblushing: ALL LAWS that require outward works are designed to reveal sins. Tithes, fasting, performance of ordinances, .....there is a spiritual tithe, a spiritual fast, a spiritual ordinance, i.e.baptism of fire. The pharisee were baptized, but christ said their baptism wasn't acceptable. WHY???

You are right. I don't understand. I will take it a step further. This looks like the gospel of TrueIntent! and It is completely incoherent! I agree that there are both physical ordinances, and spiritual components of those ordinances. I agree that Physical ordinances, without the spiritual component is hollow!, but

ALL LAWS that require outward works are designed to reveal sins. Tithes, fasting, performance of ordinances, .

is just BS.

OK I will confess. I pay a full tithe What sin of mine does that reveal???

Regards,

George Clay

Actually...its the gospel preached by Paul and Jesus. Ever heard of them?

John 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance JST (your traditions), but judge righteous judgment.

HERE IS THE TEACHINGS OF PAUL EXPLAINING WHY WE HAVE THE LAW....I will use his words...this has JST for you.

Galatians 3:19
19 Wherefore then, the law was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made in the law given to Moses, who was ordained by the hand of angels to be a mediator of this first covenant, (the law.)
20 Now this mediator was not a mediator of the new covenant; but there is one mediator of the new covenant, who is Christ, as it is written in the law concerning the promises made to Abraham and his seed. Now Christ is the mediator of life; for this is the promise which God made unto Abraham.

Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

The law reveals our sins. this is what paul taught....do you understand. When we practice our best obedience to the law, it will reveal our sins, so that we can repent and practice a higher law (law of Christ...spirit of the law)....We can not know where we sin, without practicing the law first. The more obedient you are to laws (just like abraham sacrificing Issac)...if you do it out of fear of God, and sacrifice of a firstling of your flock which is Love...God will reveal himself to you. Im teaching you the meaning of the ordinances right here if you will see it....its the moral of the story...not the outward act.

[Rensai]

Nowhere in the bible did God command polygamy, just the opposite. In deuteronomy he gives his instructions on this.

Deuteronomy 17:14–20

14 “When you come to the land that the Lord your God is giving you, and you possess it and dwell in it and then say, ‘I will set a king over me, like all the nations that are around me,’ 15 you may indeed set a king over you whom the Lord your God will choose. One from among your brothers you shall set as king over you. You may not put a foreigner over you, who is not your brother. 16 Only he must not acquire many horses for himself or cause the people to return to Egypt in order to acquire many horses, since the Lord has said to you, ‘You shall never return that way again.’ 17 AND HE SHALL NOT ACQUIRE MANY WIVES FOR HIMSELF, lest his heart turn away, nor shall he acquire for himself excessive silver and gold.
18 “And when he sits on the throne of his kingdom, he shall write for himself in a book a copy of this law, approved by the Levitical priests. 19 AND IT SHALL BE WITH HIM,, AND HE SHALL READ IN IT ALL THE DAYS OF HIS LIFE, THAT HE MAY LEARN TO FEAR THE LORD HIS GOD BY KEEPING ALL THE WORDS OF THIS LAW AND THESE STATUES, AND DOING THEM. 20 that his heart may not be lifted up above his brothers, and that he may not turn aside from the commandment, either to the right hand or to the left, so that he may continue long in his kingdom, he and his children, in Israel.

So clearly, God did not condone David or Solomon in any way. As for Abraham, the bible makes it clear having hagar as a concubine was actually sarah idea, to which abraham agreed. Their behavior on that actually shows a lack of faith in God's promise, they made a mistake and God never acknowledges Ishmael in any way. For example:

2 And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.

17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,

12 And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called.

God only acknowledges Isaac as Abrahams son, never Ishmael in any way.

Similarly, God never commands polygamy in the BoM, just the opposite.

[Arenera]

Nowhere in the bible did God command polygamy, just the opposite. In deuteronomy he gives his instructions on this.

Deuteronomy 17:14–20

14 “When you come to the land that the Lord your God is giving you, and you possess it and dwell in it and then say, ‘I will set a king over me, like all the nations that are around me,’ 15 you may indeed set a king over you whom the Lord your God will choose. One from among your brothers you shall set as king over you. You may not put a foreigner over you, who is not your brother. 16 Only he must not acquire many horses for himself or cause the people to return to Egypt in order to acquire many horses, since the Lord has said to you, ‘You shall never return that way again.’ 17 AND HE SHALL NOT ACQUIRE MANY WIVES FOR HIMSELF, lest his heart turn away, nor shall he acquire for himself excessive silver and gold.
18 “And when he sits on the throne of his kingdom, he shall write for himself in a book a copy of this law, approved by the Levitical priests. 19 AND IT SHALL BE WITH HIM,, AND HE SHALL READ IN IT ALL THE DAYS OF HIS LIFE, THAT HE MAY LEARN TO FEAR THE LORD HIS GOD BY KEEPING ALL THE WORDS OF THIS LAW AND THESE STATUES, AND DOING THEM. 20 that his heart may not be lifted up above his brothers, and that he may not turn aside from the commandment, either to the right hand or to the left, so that he may continue long in his kingdom, he and his children, in Israel.

So clearly, God did not condone David or Solomon in any way. As for Abraham, the bible makes it clear having hagar as a concubine was actually sarah idea, to which abraham agreed. Their behavior on that actually shows a lack of faith in God's promise, they made a mistake and God never acknowledges Ishmael in any way. For example:

2 And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.

17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,

12 And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called.

God only acknowledges Isaac as Abrahams son, never Ishmael in any way.

Similarly, God never commands polygamy in the BoM, just the opposite.

Why did you skip Jacob? Little tougher.

And why do you blame a woman with Abraham? Abraham was much stronger than you think. God did condone polygamy, stop skipping scriptures that do tell, like D&C 132.

[TrueIntent]

Nowhere in the bible did God command polygamy, just the opposite. In deuteronomy he gives his instructions on this.

Deuteronomy 17:14–20

14 “When you come to the land that the Lord your God is giving you, and you possess it and dwell in it and then say, ‘I will set a king over me, like all the nations that are around me,’ 15 you may indeed set a king over you whom the Lord your God will choose. One from among your brothers you shall set as king over you. You may not put a foreigner over you, who is not your brother. 16 Only he must not acquire many horses for himself or cause the people to return to Egypt in order to acquire many horses, since the Lord has said to you, ‘You shall never return that way again.’ 17 AND HE SHALL NOT ACQUIRE MANY WIVES FOR HIMSELF, lest his heart turn away, nor shall he acquire for himself excessive silver and gold.
18 “And when he sits on the throne of his kingdom, he shall write for himself in a book a copy of this law, approved by the Levitical priests. 19 AND IT SHALL BE WITH HIM,, AND HE SHALL READ IN IT ALL THE DAYS OF HIS LIFE, THAT HE MAY LEARN TO FEAR THE LORD HIS GOD BY KEEPING ALL THE WORDS OF THIS LAW AND THESE STATUES, AND DOING THEM. 20 that his heart may not be lifted up above his brothers, and that he may not turn aside from the commandment, either to the right hand or to the left, so that he may continue long in his kingdom, he and his children, in Israel.

So clearly, God did not condone David or Solomon in any way. As for Abraham, the bible makes it clear having hagar as a concubine was actually sarah idea, to which abraham agreed. Their behavior on that actually shows a lack of faith in God's promise, they made a mistake and God never acknowledges Ishmael in any way. For example:

2 And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.

17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,

12 And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called.

God only acknowledges Isaac as Abrahams son, never Ishmael in any way.

Similarly, God never commands polygamy in the BoM, just the opposite.

I'm agreeing with you....it is important to note for some of the people on this forum....that The old testament is highly symbolic....notice that solomon takes 300 wives and 700 Concubines....this adds up to a perfect 1000...we should be careful about what we interpret to be literal or symbolic...it will trap us in our sins (which may be a good thing, because it will compel us to repent). You are dead on in your interpretations.

[Col. Flagg]

Satan could not have devised a more clever way of desecrating and destroying the family unit than by getting men to attempt to justify something like polygamy as an excuse to satisfy their own carnal desires. Polygamy completely destroys the sanctity of womanhood and the dignity of women while essentially making property out of them and rendering the most beautiful of all of God's human emotions meaningless, which is love between two people.

Polygamy is a biblical practice. There is no way around it.

So that makes it OK or acceptable? And what was the one common theme/element in every situation where a man of high political/religious office took more than one wife for himself?

Billions blessed due to the covenant of the House of Israel. Christ came through Judah.

The House of Israel (Jacob)
Jacob & Leah
Reuben
Simeon
Judah
Isachar
Zebulun

Jacob & Zilpah
Gad
Asher

Jacob & Rachel
Joseph
Benjamin

Jacob & Bilhah
Dan
Naphtali

5 And now, the words which I shall read are they which Isaiah spake concerning all the house of Israel; wherefore, they may be likened unto you, for ye are of the house of Israel. And there are many things which have been spoken by Isaiah which may be likened unto you, because ye are of the house of Israel.

=)) Try again.

[TrueIntent]

Nowhere in the bible did God command polygamy, just the opposite. In deuteronomy he gives his instructions on this.

Deuteronomy 17:14–20

14 “When you come to the land that the Lord your God is giving you, and you possess it and dwell in it and then say, ‘I will set a king over me, like all the nations that are around me,’ 15 you may indeed set a king over you whom the Lord your God will choose. One from among your brothers you shall set as king over you. You may not put a foreigner over you, who is not your brother. 16 Only he must not acquire many horses for himself or cause the people to return to Egypt in order to acquire many horses, since the Lord has said to you, ‘You shall never return that way again.’ 17 AND HE SHALL NOT ACQUIRE MANY WIVES FOR HIMSELF, lest his heart turn away, nor shall he acquire for himself excessive silver and gold.
18 “And when he sits on the throne of his kingdom, he shall write for himself in a book a copy of this law, approved by the Levitical priests. 19 AND IT SHALL BE WITH HIM,, AND HE SHALL READ IN IT ALL THE DAYS OF HIS LIFE, THAT HE MAY LEARN TO FEAR THE LORD HIS GOD BY KEEPING ALL THE WORDS OF THIS LAW AND THESE STATUES, AND DOING THEM. 20 that his heart may not be lifted up above his brothers, and that he may not turn aside from the commandment, either to the right hand or to the left, so that he may continue long in his kingdom, he and his children, in Israel.

So clearly, God did not condone David or Solomon in any way. As for Abraham, the bible makes it clear having hagar as a concubine was actually sarah idea, to which abraham agreed. Their behavior on that actually shows a lack of faith in God's promise, they made a mistake and God never acknowledges Ishmael in any way. For example:

2 And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.

17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,

12 And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called.

God only acknowledges Isaac as Abrahams son, never Ishmael in any way.

Similarly, God never commands polygamy in the BoM, just the opposite.

Why did you skip Jacob? Little tougher.

And why do you blame a woman with Abraham? Abraham was much stronger than you think. God did condone polygamy, stop skipping scriptures that do tell, like D&C 132.

You should read my post on 132. It's quite lengthy, but most people dont understand the difference between the law of Moses and Christ fulfilling this law. It will give you an explanation for why polygamy is not condoned of God, unless of course you are wicked....God will allow us to be commanded in all things....Like the book of mormon teaches...you are only as righteous as the king leading you.

Zechariah 13:4
4 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the prophets shall be ashamed every one of his vision, when he hath prophesied; neither shall they wear a rough garment to deceive:

This verse is highly symbolic...there are prophets who wear a "rough garment" to deceive. But I don't have time to explain all that symbolism. Hopefully you will read my post.

[Seek the Truth]

I think what they're saying is that even though you see meen marrying countless women in the Bible doesn't make it a correct practice.

I think they are wrong.

If it was something that was just that plain and obvious then you'd see a lot more polygamists in the Christian world.

Not really. There is a lot more of a lot of things we should see in the Christian world, it has no impact on God's word.

Instead the overwhelming vast majority practice monogamy in accordance with with the Book of Mormon teaches. This kind of mirrors the situation where the Lamanites practicing monogamy according to commandment of the Lord but the Nephites were the ones violating it.

Maybe that's a parallel to today? Polygamy may have happened in the old world, but it has been banned in the Americas, on the promised land, since the beginning.

Polygamy is sometimes approved, sometimes not approved. I don't think it is that complex.

[Seek the Truth]

So that makes it OK or acceptable?

When the Lord says so, yes.

And what was the one common theme/element in every situation where a man of high political/religious office took more than one wife for himself?

Happiness?

[gclayjr]

TrueIntent,

TrueIntent wrote: ↑
Wed Aug 23, 2017 7:08 pm

TrueIntent wrote: ↑
Wed Aug 23, 2017 7:02 pm

gclayjr wrote: ↑
Wed Aug 23, 2017 6:42 pm

Trueintent,

You don't understand George.... :ymblushing: ALL LAWS that require outward works are designed to reveal sins. Tithes, fasting, performance of ordinances, .....there is a spiritual tithe, a spiritual fast, a spiritual ordinance, i.e.baptism of fire. The pharisee were baptized, but christ said their baptism wasn't acceptable. WHY???

You are right. I don't understand. I will take it a step further. This looks like the gospel of TrueIntent! and It is completely incoherent! I agree that there are both physical ordinances, and spiritual components of those ordinances. I agree that Physical ordinances, without the spiritual component is hollow!, but

ALL LAWS that require outward works are designed to reveal sins. Tithes, fasting, performance of ordinances, .

is just BS.

OK I will confess. I pay a full tithe What sin of mine does that reveal???

Regards,

George Clay

Actually...its the gospel preached by Paul and Jesus. Ever heard of them?

John 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance JST (your traditions), but judge righteous judgment.

HERE IS THE TEACHINGS OF PAUL EXPLAINING WHY WE HAVE THE LAW....I will use his words...this has JST for you.

Galatians 3:19
19 Wherefore then, the law was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made in the law given to Moses, who was ordained by the hand of angels to be a mediator of this first covenant, (the law.)
20 Now this mediator was not a mediator of the new covenant; but there is one mediator of the new covenant, who is Christ, as it is written in the law concerning the promises made to Abraham and his seed. Now Christ is the mediator of life; for this is the promise which God made unto Abraham.

Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

The law reveals our sins. this is what paul taught....do you understand. When we practice our best obedience to the law, it will reveal our sins, so that we can repent and practice a higher law (law of Christ...spirit of the law)....We can not know where we sin, without practicing the law first. The more obedient you are to laws (just like abraham sacrificing Issac)...if you do it out of fear of God, and sacrifice of a firstling of your flock which is Love...God will reveal himself to you. Im teaching you the meaning of the ordinances right here if you will see it....its the moral of the story...not the outward act.

You do seem to like having a conversation with yourself. You said nothing to either answer my question or make your incoherence coherent, so I guess I'll let you go to wander in the world of your own arrogance.

Regards,

George Clay

[TrueIntent]

TrueIntent,

TrueIntent wrote: ↑
Wed Aug 23, 2017 7:08 pm

TrueIntent wrote: ↑
Wed Aug 23, 2017 7:02 pm

gclayjr wrote: ↑
Wed Aug 23, 2017 6:42 pm

Actually...its the gospel preached by Paul and Jesus. Ever heard of them?

John 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance JST (your traditions), but judge righteous judgment.

HERE IS THE TEACHINGS OF PAUL EXPLAINING WHY WE HAVE THE LAW....I will use his words...this has JST for you.

Galatians 3:19
19 Wherefore then, the law was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made in the law given to Moses, who was ordained by the hand of angels to be a mediator of this first covenant, (the law.)
20 Now this mediator was not a mediator of the new covenant; but there is one mediator of the new covenant, who is Christ, as it is written in the law concerning the promises made to Abraham and his seed. Now Christ is the mediator of life; for this is the promise which God made unto Abraham.

Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

The law reveals our sins. this is what paul taught....do you understand. When we practice our best obedience to the law, it will reveal our sins, so that we can repent and practice a higher law (law of Christ...spirit of the law)....We can not know where we sin, without practicing the law first. The more obedient you are to laws (just like abraham sacrificing Issac)...if you do it out of fear of God, and sacrifice of a firstling of your flock which is Love...God will reveal himself to you. Im teaching you the meaning of the ordinances right here if you will see it....its the moral of the story...not the outward act.

You do seem to like having a conversation with yourself. You said nothing to either answer my question or make your incoherence coherent, so I guess I'll let you go to wander in the world of your own arrogance.

Regards,

George Clay

Yeah, I did. I countered you with the exact words of Paul and Christ from the scriptures...since you wouldn't believe my teaching of those words. But whatever. You can't understand anything I say without understanding those scriptures...Which is why you quoted me like a Pharisee...about the tithe stuff. Remove the Beam from your eye. But whatever. thats a scripture too. I didn't list all the scriptures I pulled that information from, including my original post...cuz its like...from all the scriptures. 3 witnesses in one. But whatever. counter me with some scriptures or something and then we can have some good conversation:)

[TrueIntent]

TrueIntent,

(What am I proving????....that taking your sister-in-law and making a baby with her as instructed in the law of Moses isn't because you are righteous...it is to reveal where you sin so that you can repent of your wickedness).

I can't even make any sense out of the last part of your sentence, here but, if it wasn't a law given by Jehovah, why didn't Christ admonish the Sadducees over the terrible evil and sin of polygamy instead of a more banal

9 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

??

If Polygamy was so bad, this would have been the perfect opportunity to admonish them. You throw out one Old Testament "Thus saith the Lord", and ignore time after time where it is accepted, or various blessing are given to plural marriages as if sanctioned, then imply that poor helpless God is just going along with the evil practices of men. He may punish Cain for murder, He may punish Saul for not waiting for a prophet to offer sacrifices, but heaven forbid he hurt Jacob's feelings by saying anything about his 4 wives. He will bless the world by having the descendants of Jacob bless the whole world, but he better not hurt Jacobs feelings by telling him that all this blessing of the world was done in his great sin, because God can work with that.

What poppycock!

Regards,

George Clay

You don't understand George....ALL LAWS that require outward works are designed to reveal sins. Tithes, fasting, performance of ordinances, .....there is a spiritual tithe, a spiritual fast, a spiritual ordinance, i.e.baptism of fire. The pharisee were baptized, but christ said their baptism wasn't acceptable. WHY??? Because they did the outward and not the inward. Christ taught that nothing the pharisees did was acceptable--it was all outward. They paid tithing perfectly (but they didn't keep the inward law of caring for their aging and dying parents). So it is, (if polygamy is a law)....It is an outward law. it is designed to reveal sins. Just as the story of Tamar, and all laws found within the Law of Moses. There is a higher law. It is the spiritual law. Its not...thou shalt not commit adultery...christ said....thou shalt not lust (this is the spiritual form of the law...the higher law). There are inward and outward laws. The higher law was to care for the widows and the fatherless....(*which is one of the things the saints claimed they were doing by taking wives.) They could have just done what the jews did, which was open the storehouse to the widows and fatherless (this is what was done in the old testament)...instead they had to take them as polygamist wives??????...even when they did, we can find in pioneer records that the wives weren't being cared for. We pay tithing, so that we can learn how to give when it matters...like taking care of your aging parents. We fast, so that we learn how to not let our carnal body rule our spiritual body, we perform ordinances, not so that we say we are holy or corrupt their meaning for our desires, but so that we can learn how to become holy. We perform polygamy...so that we can care for the widows????? nope....we love those in need, we pay tithes, so that when we find a widow in our midst, amongst our own families....we will choose the higher law, and care for them without any conditions....we will open our own storehouses....did you read the story of Tamar? The law of moses is holy...it came from God...to reveal those mens sins.....so that they could repent. That is the purpose of the law...to reveal sin. you wouldn't know what your sins were without the law (I'm quoting the apostle Paul when I say this)...everything Im saying is coming from the new testament...i just didn't list all the scriptures.

Btw, are you familiar with Moses being commanded to slaughter a bunch of people before they enter the promised land. You say that because something is in the Old testament that it is acceptable. Which is why you say polygamy is acceptable. But we don't we slaughter people in the church. You err in your understanding George. The scriptures are teaching lessons...not actions to be performed. if you want actions...then you are going to have to murder some people, rape some people, take wives and concubines..etc.....youre missing the message..the moral of the story...the moral of the story is to find out where we sin so that we can repent. The law reveals sin (Paul teaches this). The scriptures are used for both good and evil purposes. By you're same logic....polygamy is practiced, but not the murders???? come on now...give me something that doesnt contradict scripture or itself. Lot's daughters get him drunk and sleep with him.....we don't we teach that in the church? Come on...restoration of all things...means all things right.???? according to you...or does it just mean polygamy. You read the scriptures as outward works...I read them as lessons on Morality. You view the law as righteous because you obeyed. I view the law as righteous because it reveals to me how I sin, so that I can repent, and forsake my sins.

Sorry, I didn't see your comment about the sadducees...i will address that now. The Saducees believed in keeping a literal bloodline alive. Just like Sarah gave Hagar because she lacked faith. The Savior did condemn them for this.

JST Mathew Chapter 3:36 And think not to say within yourselves, We are the children of Abraham, and we only have power to bring seed unto our father Abraham; for I say unto you that God is able of these stones to raise up children into Abraham.


They think the power to raise up seed is only within their power, this is also how Sarah sinned....God can make children out of stones. And to top it off...this is in the Joseph Smith Translation. Joseph knew.

[TrueIntent]

I also want to add....we are all sinners....just like our forefathers.....we are blessed because we have a written record of their sins. It helps us to perfect ourselves, and root out those who seek to cover their sins and lead us into a "pit without water." I am blessed because of the records brigham young kept and his wives kept. I am blessed because of the records Abraham, Issac, and Jacob kept. They want us to know. They want us to figure it out...so we can turn our hearts toward them. They bore their sins in an ancient book of records to prevent me from committing their sins. We''re supposed to purge ourselves of these things. They loved us more than they loved themselves---they didn't hide it. We all sin. We all need Christ.

[Arenera]

TrueIntent,



I can't even make any sense out of the last part of your sentence, here but, if it wasn't a law given by Jehovah, why didn't Christ admonish the Sadducees over the terrible evil and sin of polygamy instead of a more banal



??

If Polygamy was so bad, this would have been the perfect opportunity to admonish them. You throw out one Old Testament "Thus saith the Lord", and ignore time after time where it is accepted, or various blessing are given to plural marriages as if sanctioned, then imply that poor helpless God is just going along with the evil practices of men. He may punish Cain for murder, He may punish Saul for not waiting for a prophet to offer sacrifices, but heaven forbid he hurt Jacob's feelings by saying anything about his 4 wives. He will bless the world by having the descendants of Jacob bless the whole world, but he better not hurt Jacobs feelings by telling him that all this blessing of the world was done in his great sin, because God can work with that.

What poppycock!

Regards,

George Clay

You don't understand George....ALL LAWS that require outward works are designed to reveal sins. Tithes, fasting, performance of ordinances, .....there is a spiritual tithe, a spiritual fast, a spiritual ordinance, i.e.baptism of fire. The pharisee were baptized, but christ said their baptism wasn't acceptable. WHY??? Because they did the outward and not the inward. Christ taught that nothing the pharisees did was acceptable--it was all outward. They paid tithing perfectly (but they didn't keep the inward law of caring for their aging and dying parents). So it is, (if polygamy is a law)....It is an outward law. it is designed to reveal sins. Just as the story of Tamar, and all laws found within the Law of Moses. There is a higher law. It is the spiritual law. Its not...thou shalt not commit adultery...christ said....thou shalt not lust (this is the spiritual form of the law...the higher law). There are inward and outward laws. The higher law was to care for the widows and the fatherless....(*which is one of the things the saints claimed they were doing by taking wives.) They could have just done what the jews did, which was open the storehouse to the widows and fatherless (this is what was done in the old testament)...instead they had to take them as polygamist wives??????...even when they did, we can find in pioneer records that the wives weren't being cared for. We pay tithing, so that we can learn how to give when it matters...like taking care of your aging parents. We fast, so that we learn how to not let our carnal body rule our spiritual body, we perform ordinances, not so that we say we are holy or corrupt their meaning for our desires, but so that we can learn how to become holy. We perform polygamy...so that we can care for the widows????? nope....we love those in need, we pay tithes, so that when we find a widow in our midst, amongst our own families....we will choose the higher law, and care for them without any conditions....we will open our own storehouses....did you read the story of Tamar? The law of moses is holy...it came from God...to reveal those mens sins.....so that they could repent. That is the purpose of the law...to reveal sin. you wouldn't know what your sins were without the law (I'm quoting the apostle Paul when I say this)...everything Im saying is coming from the new testament...i just didn't list all the scriptures.

Btw, are you familiar with Moses being commanded to slaughter a bunch of people before they enter the promised land. You say that because something is in the Old testament that it is acceptable. Which is why you say polygamy is acceptable. But we don't we slaughter people in the church. You err in your understanding George. The scriptures are teaching lessons...not actions to be performed. if you want actions...then you are going to have to murder some people, rape some people, take wives and concubines..etc.....youre missing the message..the moral of the story...the moral of the story is to find out where we sin so that we can repent. The law reveals sin (Paul teaches this). The scriptures are used for both good and evil purposes. By you're same logic....polygamy is practiced, but not the murders???? come on now...give me something that doesnt contradict scripture or itself. Lot's daughters get him drunk and sleep with him.....we don't we teach that in the church? Come on...restoration of all things...means all things right.???? according to you...or does it just mean polygamy. You read the scriptures as outward works...I read them as lessons on Morality. You view the law as righteous because you obeyed. I view the law as righteous because it reveals to me how I sin, so that I can repent, and forsake my sins.

Sorry, I didn't see your comment about the sadducees...i will address that now. The Saducees believed in keeping a literal bloodline alive. Just like Sarah gave Hagar because she lacked faith. The Savior did condemn them for this.

JST Mathew Chapter 3:36 And think not to say within yourselves, We are the children of Abraham, and we only have power to bring seed unto our father Abraham; for I say unto you that God is able of these stones to raise up children into Abraham.


They think the power to raise up seed is only within their power, this is also how Sarah sinned....God can make children out of stones. And to top it off...this is in the Joseph Smith Translation. Joseph knew.

And Joseph followed the commandment to practice polygamy, and others.

57B61417-DB5C-4379-8F4D-718275D8FBDB-4413-000009F850563B4A.jpeg (96.99 KiB) Viewed 1170 times

[TrueIntent]

You don't understand George....ALL LAWS that require outward works are designed to reveal sins. Tithes, fasting, performance of ordinances, .....there is a spiritual tithe, a spiritual fast, a spiritual ordinance, i.e.baptism of fire. The pharisee were baptized, but christ said their baptism wasn't acceptable. WHY??? Because they did the outward and not the inward. Christ taught that nothing the pharisees did was acceptable--it was all outward. They paid tithing perfectly (but they didn't keep the inward law of caring for their aging and dying parents). So it is, (if polygamy is a law)....It is an outward law. it is designed to reveal sins. Just as the story of Tamar, and all laws found within the Law of Moses. There is a higher law. It is the spiritual law. Its not...thou shalt not commit adultery...christ said....thou shalt not lust (this is the spiritual form of the law...the higher law). There are inward and outward laws. The higher law was to care for the widows and the fatherless....(*which is one of the things the saints claimed they were doing by taking wives.) They could have just done what the jews did, which was open the storehouse to the widows and fatherless (this is what was done in the old testament)...instead they had to take them as polygamist wives??????...even when they did, we can find in pioneer records that the wives weren't being cared for. We pay tithing, so that we can learn how to give when it matters...like taking care of your aging parents. We fast, so that we learn how to not let our carnal body rule our spiritual body, we perform ordinances, not so that we say we are holy or corrupt their meaning for our desires, but so that we can learn how to become holy. We perform polygamy...so that we can care for the widows????? nope....we love those in need, we pay tithes, so that when we find a widow in our midst, amongst our own families....we will choose the higher law, and care for them without any conditions....we will open our own storehouses....did you read the story of Tamar? The law of moses is holy...it came from God...to reveal those mens sins.....so that they could repent. That is the purpose of the law...to reveal sin. you wouldn't know what your sins were without the law (I'm quoting the apostle Paul when I say this)...everything Im saying is coming from the new testament...i just didn't list all the scriptures.

Btw, are you familiar with Moses being commanded to slaughter a bunch of people before they enter the promised land. You say that because something is in the Old testament that it is acceptable. Which is why you say polygamy is acceptable. But we don't we slaughter people in the church. You err in your understanding George. The scriptures are teaching lessons...not actions to be performed. if you want actions...then you are going to have to murder some people, rape some people, take wives and concubines..etc.....youre missing the message..the moral of the story...the moral of the story is to find out where we sin so that we can repent. The law reveals sin (Paul teaches this). The scriptures are used for both good and evil purposes. By you're same logic....polygamy is practiced, but not the murders???? come on now...give me something that doesnt contradict scripture or itself. Lot's daughters get him drunk and sleep with him.....we don't we teach that in the church? Come on...restoration of all things...means all things right.???? according to you...or does it just mean polygamy. You read the scriptures as outward works...I read them as lessons on Morality. You view the law as righteous because you obeyed. I view the law as righteous because it reveals to me how I sin, so that I can repent, and forsake my sins.

Sorry, I didn't see your comment about the sadducees...i will address that now. The Saducees believed in keeping a literal bloodline alive. Just like Sarah gave Hagar because she lacked faith. The Savior did condemn them for this.

JST Mathew Chapter 3:36 And think not to say within yourselves, We are the children of Abraham, and we only have power to bring seed unto our father Abraham; for I say unto you that God is able of these stones to raise up children into Abraham.


They think the power to raise up seed is only within their power, this is also how Sarah sinned....God can make children out of stones. And to top it off...this is in the Joseph Smith Translation. Joseph knew.

And Joseph followed the commandment to practice polygamy, and others.
57B61417-DB5C-4379-8F4D-718275D8FBDB-4413-000009F850563B4A.jpeg

okay...and your point is?

[MMbelieve]

Your logic fails the Divine test. If plural marriage was improper, then we wouldn't have the Abrahamic Covenant, also renewed with Jacob/Israel. Multiple wives involved.

You have asserted this multiple times, however, you haven't demonstrated or explained why what you say is true. If plural marriage is an abomination we could (and we do) have the Abrahamic Covenant (whatever that means to you, but just using your words).

Leaders and people of every stripe, gender, culture, race, class, etc. can make horrendous mistakes and be in error.

Are you saying that because something good resulted in a condition where people practiced plural marriage, plural marriage is good? Is this what you mean or is that what you are trying to say.

Please, explain why your assertion is true.

-Finrock

God condoned plural marriage. It was no mistake. It wasn't because the people were just that way. God was not accepting flawed people. He condoned plural marriage.

What tribe are you in?

Is that proof enough?

God commanding, accepting, allowing, condoning and justifying are different. God said he "justified" them. We know what justice is right? Not equal but unfair circumstances were made right through justice God imposed.

If a man abuses a child or a wife, the law locking him up is this man's punishment in an attempt to serve justice. Justifying is having an authority make something as right as possible because what had happened wasn't ideal for the parties involved.

This is what I understand anyways. God could have said..."which actions are pleasing unto me" but he didnt.

[carbon dioxide]

Nowhere in the bible did God command polygamy, just the opposite. In deuteronomy he gives his instructions on this.

Deuteronomy 17:14–20

14 “When you come to the land that the Lord your God is giving you, and you possess it and dwell in it and then say, ‘I will set a king over me, like all the nations that are around me,’ 15 you may indeed set a king over you whom the Lord your God will choose. One from among your brothers you shall set as king over you. You may not put a foreigner over you, who is not your brother. 16 Only he must not acquire many horses for himself or cause the people to return to Egypt in order to acquire many horses, since the Lord has said to you, ‘You shall never return that way again.’ 17 AND HE SHALL NOT ACQUIRE MANY WIVES FOR HIMSELF, lest his heart turn away, nor shall he acquire for himself excessive silver and gold.
18 “And when he sits on the throne of his kingdom, he shall write for himself in a book a copy of this law, approved by the Levitical priests. 19 AND IT SHALL BE WITH HIM,, AND HE SHALL READ IN IT ALL THE DAYS OF HIS LIFE, THAT HE MAY LEARN TO FEAR THE LORD HIS GOD BY KEEPING ALL THE WORDS OF THIS LAW AND THESE STATUES, AND DOING THEM. 20 that his heart may not be lifted up above his brothers, and that he may not turn aside from the commandment, either to the right hand or to the left, so that he may continue long in his kingdom, he and his children, in Israel.

You really can't be serious using this verse. Are you suggesting that God was against a person having more than one horse or more than one coin of silver or gold? The best you can say is that this passage is speaking about having an excessive amount of horses or wives but it was ok to have a few at least. There is a command in Deut 25:5-10 where there would be situations where a married brother must take the wife of his dead brother.

[Rensai]

Nowhere in the bible did God command polygamy, just the opposite. In deuteronomy he gives his instructions on this.

Deuteronomy 17:14–20

14 “When you come to the land that the Lord your God is giving you, and you possess it and dwell in it and then say, ‘I will set a king over me, like all the nations that are around me,’ 15 you may indeed set a king over you whom the Lord your God will choose. One from among your brothers you shall set as king over you. You may not put a foreigner over you, who is not your brother. 16 Only he must not acquire many horses for himself or cause the people to return to Egypt in order to acquire many horses, since the Lord has said to you, ‘You shall never return that way again.’ 17 AND HE SHALL NOT ACQUIRE MANY WIVES FOR HIMSELF, lest his heart turn away, nor shall he acquire for himself excessive silver and gold.
18 “And when he sits on the throne of his kingdom, he shall write for himself in a book a copy of this law, approved by the Levitical priests. 19 AND IT SHALL BE WITH HIM,, AND HE SHALL READ IN IT ALL THE DAYS OF HIS LIFE, THAT HE MAY LEARN TO FEAR THE LORD HIS GOD BY KEEPING ALL THE WORDS OF THIS LAW AND THESE STATUES, AND DOING THEM. 20 that his heart may not be lifted up above his brothers, and that he may not turn aside from the commandment, either to the right hand or to the left, so that he may continue long in his kingdom, he and his children, in Israel.

You really can't be serious using this verse. Are you suggesting that God was against a person having more than one horse or more than one coin of silver or gold? The best you can say is that this passage is speaking about having an excessive amount of horses or wives but it was ok to have a few at least. There is a command in Deut 25:5-10 where there would be situations where a married brother must take the wife of his dead brother.

Sorry, maybe it wasn't clear, but this verse is a direct command to Israel's kings not to have many wives. I don't see how it could be more clear, yet in D&C 132, we read that Solomon and David were justified, and sinned only in the matter of uriah, never mind that Solomon had nothing to do with uriah, but the simple fact is, there is no way that that is their only sin in regards to having many wives because they had clearly been commanded not to have many wives. See what I'm saying now? Its just as Jacob said, David and solomon truly had many wives, which thing was abominable before the lord. It is clear and consistent between the BoM and the Bible.

As for the verses you mention about marrying a brother's wife, I guess I don't know that there's a really clear answer for that. Perhaps like section 132 some wicked israelites edited those verses at some point because Jacob makes it clear, his scriptures did not support polygamy in any way, nor is there ever any mention made of the nephites practicing that that I know of. I'll quote it again.

23 But the word of God burdens me because of your grosser crimes. For behold, thus saith the Lord: This people begin to wax in iniquity; they understand not the scriptures, for they seek to excuse themselves in committing whoredoms, because of the things which were written concerning David, and Solomon his son.

Look at what his saying and really think about it. There are 2 important thoughts there. First, the Nephites who are trying polygamy do not understand the scriptures! They try to justify polygamy because of David and Solomon, but the old testament makes it clear they were commanded not to do that! Its an abomination! He even clarifies and lays out very explicit instructions on what is allowed in verse 27.

27 Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife; and concubines he shall have none;

No mention of marrying a brothers wife or anything weird like that. Secondly, he is laying out exactly what is allowed. It is as clear as can be in both the bible and BoM that David and Solomon having many wives was wrong. Compare that to D&C 132 and you have a big problem, they can't both be right. There are many other problems with D&C 132 as well and when you look at all those problems, the most logical answer in my mind is that that section is not true, at least not all of it, there is good evidence that at least some parts of it were published by Joseph, but it was greatly added to. There is a lot of evidence you can find with a little google searching to corroborate that. I won't get into all that, but again, I don't see how you can ignore Jacob or explain his clear instructions away. He says it so plainly, if you understand the scriptures, you can't justify polygamy.

[Rensai]

Nowhere in the bible did God command polygamy, just the opposite. In deuteronomy he gives his instructions on this.

Deuteronomy 17:14–20

14 “When you come to the land that the Lord your God is giving you, and you possess it and dwell in it and then say, ‘I will set a king over me, like all the nations that are around me,’ 15 you may indeed set a king over you whom the Lord your God will choose. One from among your brothers you shall set as king over you. You may not put a foreigner over you, who is not your brother. 16 Only he must not acquire many horses for himself or cause the people to return to Egypt in order to acquire many horses, since the Lord has said to you, ‘You shall never return that way again.’ 17 AND HE SHALL NOT ACQUIRE MANY WIVES FOR HIMSELF, lest his heart turn away, nor shall he acquire for himself excessive silver and gold.
18 “And when he sits on the throne of his kingdom, he shall write for himself in a book a copy of this law, approved by the Levitical priests. 19 AND IT SHALL BE WITH HIM,, AND HE SHALL READ IN IT ALL THE DAYS OF HIS LIFE, THAT HE MAY LEARN TO FEAR THE LORD HIS GOD BY KEEPING ALL THE WORDS OF THIS LAW AND THESE STATUES, AND DOING THEM. 20 that his heart may not be lifted up above his brothers, and that he may not turn aside from the commandment, either to the right hand or to the left, so that he may continue long in his kingdom, he and his children, in Israel.

So clearly, God did not condone David or Solomon in any way. As for Abraham, the bible makes it clear having hagar as a concubine was actually sarah idea, to which abraham agreed. Their behavior on that actually shows a lack of faith in God's promise, they made a mistake and God never acknowledges Ishmael in any way. For example:

2 And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.

17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,

12 And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called.

God only acknowledges Isaac as Abrahams son, never Ishmael in any way.

Similarly, God never commands polygamy in the BoM, just the opposite.

Why did you skip Jacob? Little tougher.

And why do you blame a woman with Abraham? Abraham was much stronger than you think. God did condone polygamy, stop skipping scriptures that do tell, like D&C 132.

I skip section 132 because the parts supporting polygamy are false and didn't come from God. Tons of evidence on that. Read the link I posted or go do some research with google. As for Jacob, he isn't that tough, he was tricked into polygamy, otherwise he would have probably done the same as his father Isaac and not practiced it.

As far as blaming a woman with Abraham, its right in the bible. God told them Sarah would have a child, their faith wasn't strong enough so she offered her hand maid and Abraham accepted. Pretty straight forward story. Maybe go read it again more carefully. No where does God command or tell Abraham its ok to take Hagar and as I pointed out already, he completely refuses to acknowledge her child Ishmael as Abrahams son, which only further proves God never gave his permission to it.

1 Now Sarai Abram’s wife bare him no children: and she had an handmaid, an Egyptian, whose name was Hagar.
2 And Sarai said unto Abram, Behold now, the Lord hath restrained me from bearing: I pray thee, go in unto my maid; it may be that I may obtain children by her. And Abram hearkened to the voice of Sarai.
3 And Sarai Abram’s wife took Hagar her maid the Egyptian, after Abram had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan, and gave her to her husband Abram to be his wife.

[carbon dioxide]

Nowhere in the bible did God command polygamy, just the opposite. In deuteronomy he gives his instructions on this.

Deuteronomy 17:14–20

14 “When you come to the land that the Lord your God is giving you, and you possess it and dwell in it and then say, ‘I will set a king over me, like all the nations that are around me,’ 15 you may indeed set a king over you whom the Lord your God will choose. One from among your brothers you shall set as king over you. You may not put a foreigner over you, who is not your brother. 16 Only he must not acquire many horses for himself or cause the people to return to Egypt in order to acquire many horses, since the Lord has said to you, ‘You shall never return that way again.’ 17 AND HE SHALL NOT ACQUIRE MANY WIVES FOR HIMSELF, lest his heart turn away, nor shall he acquire for himself excessive silver and gold.
18 “And when he sits on the throne of his kingdom, he shall write for himself in a book a copy of this law, approved by the Levitical priests. 19 AND IT SHALL BE WITH HIM,, AND HE SHALL READ IN IT ALL THE DAYS OF HIS LIFE, THAT HE MAY LEARN TO FEAR THE LORD HIS GOD BY KEEPING ALL THE WORDS OF THIS LAW AND THESE STATUES, AND DOING THEM. 20 that his heart may not be lifted up above his brothers, and that he may not turn aside from the commandment, either to the right hand or to the left, so that he may continue long in his kingdom, he and his children, in Israel.

You really can't be serious using this verse. Are you suggesting that God was against a person having more than one horse or more than one coin of silver or gold? The best you can say is that this passage is speaking about having an excessive amount of horses or wives but it was ok to have a few at least. There is a command in Deut 25:5-10 where there would be situations where a married brother must take the wife of his dead brother.

Sorry, maybe it wasn't clear, but this verse is a direct command to Israel's kings not to have many wives.

The word many refers to a large number of something. What exactly is a large number? If a man has 3 or 5 wives, is that really "many wives" or a few? The passage does not define what the limit is. There is simply nothing in the passage that suggest the king could only have one horse. The passage does suggest that he could have at least a few horses. So if the king could have a few horses, why not a few wives? There is simply nothing in the English or the Hebrew limits the king to just one wife. The passage leave the question open to what constitutes "many" but very few people on this planet would equate "many" to mean more than one. If you pay attention to the Old Testament account of Solomon, NOTHING is stated in the text that Solomon married too many wives.


1 Kings 11:1-4,9: "But Solomon Loved many strange women, together with the daughters of Pharaoh, women of the Moabites, Ammonites, Edomites, Zidonians, and Hittites. Of the nations concerning which the Lord said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall not go in to them, neither shall they come in unto you: for surely they will turn away your heart after their gods: Soloman clave unto these in love. and he had seven hundred wives, princesses, and three hundred concubines: and his wives turned away his heart. For it came to pass, when Soloman was old, that his wives turned away his heart after other gods: and his heart was not perfect with the Lord his God, as was the heart of David his father ... And the Lord was angry with Soloman, because his heart was turned from the Lord God of Israel, which had appear unto him twice."

The Lord was angry with Solomon in this passage but the anger is not directed really at the number of his wives but that Solomon took wives that lead to his heart being turned away from the Lord as Deuteronomy 17:17 warned the kings about. The number of wives is not the big problem but what the wives would do. Had Solomon married just one woman who was outside of the nation of Israel and she turned Solomon's heart from God, then the situation still remains the same and the Lord would still have been just as angry with Solomon. There is nothing to suggest that if he married a 100 women from the House of Israel and they caused his heart to stay with God that it would have been a problem.