Sacrifice of All Things?

[drtanner]

Jacob 2:19 And after ye have obtained a hope in Christ ye shall obtain riches, if ye seek them; and ye will seek them for the intent to do good—to clothe the naked, and to feed the hungry, and to liberate the captive, and administer relief to the sick and the afflicted.

Does God really expect us to sacrifice all earthly things in order to test our faith? Did Abraham have to actually sacrifice his son? What is the lesson here in relationship to the sacrifice of earthly things?

[Dave62]

Short answer: yes. Long answer: God expects us to be prepared to sacrifice all things. It is only when we let go and are prepared to take that leap of faith that He is able to catch us. Consider the covenant we make in the Temple with regards to the Law of Consecration. Consecration requires a willingness to sacrifice all things and it is usually the last law we actually live; and usually upon the threshold of physical death.

[marc]

What is God requiring us to sacrifice that He didn't freely already give you? If we give to Him what is already His, He will improve it, make it better, gladder, more beautiful, glorious, exalted...

Why would anyone not trade whatever the earth has to offer (including our own temporal bodies) for such an upgrade? Or what does it profit a man to gain the whole world and lose his soul? You'll just be left unto yourself in darkness. Isn't that what you started out with?

[Original_Intent]

Point taken, marc, but in this world there is much tat is NOT freely given, that we must work for by the sweat of our brow.

Yes, God makes it so the sweat of our brow actually produces something worthwhile, but it is not like things just magically appear for us. If it were so, there would be no poor to concern ourselves with...

[marc]

Point taken, marc, but in this world there is much tat is NOT freely given, that we must work for by the sweat of our brow.

Yes, God makes it so the sweat of our brow actually produces something worthwhile, but it is not like things just magically appear for us. If it were so, there would be no poor to concern ourselves with...

Yes. And why Jesus taught us to pray for our enemies. An enemy is one who causes you harm. Even our closest loved ones can behave as enemies. Our test is to love them all the more; to walk with them two miles who compel you to walk with them one; to turn the other cheek when they smite you; to give your coat when you're sued for your coat, etc. Satan exacts a price for the Earth, which he has taken. And he uses people who desire power and money to buy up armies and to oppress. So we are all caught up in this telestial hell, learning by sacrifice (broken heart/contrite spirit) principles such as longsuffering, kindness, charity, etc. So we are left to try and persuade others to likewise learn to become one. And the only way to do that is by example. And that is what Jesus came to do. But yes, God did freely give us the Earth. It is we who have taken ownership and created an economy of man and worship Mammon.

[drtanner]

Is it possible to obtain riches if we seek them, and also "trade" all of our earthly possessions? Or is it a willingness and a condition of our heart that the Lord requires?

Is the Abrahamic test a pattern and type for the reality of how these blessings are obtained and the test administered?

[marc]

I have certainly obtained riches. I spent a decade building a business. But I shut it down after the the '08 recession and walked a different path. I believe it is the willingness and condition of our heart, which the Lord requires that facilitates the trading of all our possessions. I don't seek to be rich anymore and haven't now for some years--at least not as the world considers rich. I do what I need to keep this body functioning so that I can serve the Lord. Occasionally, it means eating something, getting some sleep, etc.

In my experience, the "Abrahamic" test may or may not come. But there are many tests along the journey to tend to without worrying about the big one. Did Nephi have that? No. But he did have a whole series of others. Sometimes I wonder if Abraham ever wondered if he would ever be required to offer up an "Adamic" sacrifice. Maybe. And that sacrifice is whatever the Lord requires.

[drtanner]

From John Taylor:
Nevertheless, as I have said, it is necessary that we pass through certain ordeals, and that we be tried. But why is it that we should be tried? There is just the same necessity for it now that there was in former times. I heard the Prophet Joseph say, in speaking to the Twelve on one occasion: "You will have all kinds of trials to pass through. And it is quite as necessary for you to be tried as it was for Abraham and other men of God, and (said he) God will feel after you, and He will take hold of you and wrench your very heart strings, and if you cannot stand it you will not be fit for an inheritance in the Celestial Kingdom of God." Some people have wondered why so many of the Twelve fell away. God tries people according to the position they occupy. [Journal of Discourses, 24:197; emphasis added]


I speak of these things to show how men are to be tried. I heard Joseph Smith say--and I presume Brother Snow heard him also--in preaching to the Twelve in Nauvoo, that the Lord would get hold of their heart strings and wrench them, and that they would have to be tried as Abraham was tried. Well, some of the Twelve could not stand it. They faltered and fell by the way. It was not everybody that could stand what Abraham stood. And Joseph said that if God had known any other way whereby he could have touched Abraham's feelings more acutely and more keenly he would have done so. [Journal of Discourses, 24:264; emphasis added]

The test for some may be selling a business and giving to the poor, could the test for others be starting a business again after having lost one previously if it is for the benefit of building the kingdom as mentioned in Jacob 2?? Only God knows what will really touch our feelings so acutely but our obtaining is in our willingness to obey regardless of the command, not in the sacrifice. "To obey is better than to sacrifice."

[marc]

Indeed. And to obey is typically is to sacrifice.

[Finrock]

The way I see it and the way I have experienced it is that if the requirement or the sacrifice we must offer up unto God is a broken heart and a contrite spirit, then we must and can expect to experience things in our life that will break our hearts in to pieces. Our hearts can be broken without any intervention on our part, however, the "contrite spirit" part of the sacrifice is always a choice. When your heart is broken, will you rebel, complain, seek revenge, seek justice, etc.? Or, will you seek after God, be humble, teachable, and meek?

-Finrock

[Arenera]

Jacob 2:19 And after ye have obtained a hope in Christ ye shall obtain riches, if ye seek them; and ye will seek them for the intent to do good—to clothe the naked, and to feed the hungry, and to liberate the captive, and administer relief to the sick and the afflicted.

Does God really expect us to sacrifice all earthly things in order to test our faith? Did Abraham have to actually sacrifice his son? What is the lesson here in relationship to the sacrifice of earthly things?

God wants you to live for Him, because this will bring you the most happiness and blessings.

When you commit to God by the covenant of baptism and receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost, you commit to living and learning in the Lord's way.

A member in God's church gives a lifetime of service. Each person serves in their own families, which President Lee said is where the most important service is given.

It's not easy to have your sons and daughters serve 18 months to 2 years away from you.

There is only one Christ. There is only one Abraham. There is only one Lot. We don't try to duplicate what they did.

The pioneers left everything to come to Zion.

We face a different sacrifice today. Has there been a greater time where the world was more enticing than what we face? Can we stay committed to building the kingdom of God and sustaining Christ's Prophet and Leaders when so many voices call out for us to lose faith?

Each of us gets our own "personalized" experiences. I don't want yours, I have plenty of my own. We all pitch in to help one another. We are disciples of Christ.

[Rose Garden]

The way I see it and the way I have experienced it is that if the requirement or the sacrifice we must offer up unto God is a broken heart and a contrite spirit, then we must and can expect to experience things in our life that will break our hearts in to pieces. Our hearts can be broken without any intervention on our part, however, the "contrite spirit" part of the sacrifice is always a choice. When your heart is broken, will you rebel, complain, seek revenge, seek justice, etc.? Or, will you seek after God, be humble, teachable, and meek?

-Finrock

I agree. I've come to the conclusion that every mortal being who comes to earth is walking around with a broken heart. That part is a given. The contrite part is what is difficult. It's not easy to be humble in this world.

[h_p]

It's not easy to be humble in this world.

Especially when pride is regarded so highly in our culture. It reminds me of this quote:

Pride is a very misunderstood sin, and many are sinning in ignorance. In the scriptures there is no such thing as righteous pride—it is always considered a sin.

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/ ... e?lang=eng

[oneClimbs]

This is a great topic and a very personal one. I think we are best served by sticking to the doctrine behind the principle of sacrifice, as any applications would depend on the unique situations of each individual.

From my own experience, I have found that the principle of sacrifice has to do with the orientation of our heart as it pertains to God. God is the greatest of all intelligences and the degree to which we honor him determines our eternal trajectory. We are supposed to work, labor, earn, save, and care for those around us. That is all true, but when the "stuff" becomes our goal in and of itself, then we gradually place more of our attention there, we begin to rely on the stuff as our protector and feel that if we only have more of that stuff or the right kind of stuff that we can protect ourselves from the trials and difficulties of life.

This is true to a degree as well. One could amass a great deal of stuff and buy a personal army, a fortress, and the best medical care available and preserve and prolong their life to a better degree than one living on the streets. What you gain is a false security and what you lose is an ability to rely on the strength of the creator. You become deceived in terms of what real power is and your show of strength only reveals how weak and timid you have become spiritually.

Helaman 12:2-4 says:

2 Yea, and we may see at the very time when he doth prosper his people, yea, in the increase of their fields, their flocks and their herds, and in gold, and in silver, and in all manner of precious things of every kind and art; sparing their lives, and delivering them out of the hands of their enemies; softening the hearts of their enemies that they should not declare wars against them; yea, and in fine, doing all things for the welfare and happiness of his people; yea, then is the time that they do harden their hearts, and do forget the Lord their God, and do trample under their feet the Holy One—yea, and this because of their ease, and their exceedingly great prosperity.

3 And thus we see that except the Lord doth chasten his people with many afflictions, yea, except he doth visit them with death and with terror, and with famine and with all manner of pestilence, they will not remember him.

4 O how foolish, and how vain, and how evil, and devilish, and how quick to do iniquity, and how slow to do good, are the children of men; yea, how quick to hearken unto the words of the evil one, and to set their hearts upon the vain things of the world!

I don't necessarily think one has to just take everything they have and give it all away. I know that Jesus asked the rich young man to do that, but I've always wondered if that was his Abrahamic test. Abraham was told to kill his only son, but remember, he ended up not having to do it. Could it be that if the rich young man said, "Ok, Jesus, I'll do it immediately." that the Savior might have said, "There's no need, you passed the test, your heart is in the right place."

I think what matters most is that we are always willing to sacrifice all things and also be willing to do so if called upon or if necessary. There are people who are wealthy (most Americans and probably everyone in this forum who owns a computer or phone capable of commenting here while others live in dirt shacks around the world) who do much good in the world. I think living the principle of voluntary consecration is the most divine way we can aspire to and I think many of us are in a position to do that through the fast offering program if they so desired.

There's no reason why you couldn't determine the amount of your own income which is sufficient for your needs, enough for food, insurance, savings, retirement, etc. and then consecrate any and all surpluses above that to the Lord. Marion G. Romney said as much:

[We] should live strictly by the principles of the United Order insofar as they are embraced in present church practices such as the fast offering, tithing and the welfare activities. Through these practices we could as individuals, if we wished to do so, implement in our own lives all the basic principles of the United Order…. What prohibits us from giving as much in fast offerings as we would have given in surpluses under the United Order? Nothing but our own limitations. (Marion G. Romney, Improvement Era, June 1966, p. 537.)

[diligently seeking]

This is a great topic and a very personal one. I think we are best served by sticking to the doctrine behind the principle of sacrifice, as any applications would depend on the unique situations of each individual.

From my own experience, I have found that the principle of sacrifice has to do with the orientation of our heart as it pertains to God. God is the greatest of all intelligences and the degree to which we honor him determines our eternal trajectory. We are supposed to work, labor, earn, save, and care for those around us. That is all true, but when the "stuff" becomes our goal in and of itself, then we gradually place more of our attention there, we begin to rely on the stuff as our protector and feel that if we only have more of that stuff or the right kind of stuff that we can protect ourselves from the trials and difficulties of life.

This is true to a degree as well. One could amass a great deal of stuff and buy a personal army, a fortress, and the best medical care available and preserve and prolong their life to a better degree than one living on the streets. What you gain is a false security and what you lose is an ability to rely on the strength of the creator. You become deceived in terms of what real power is and your show of strength only reveals how weak and timid you have become spiritually.

Helaman 12:2-4 says:

2 Yea, and we may see at the very time when he doth prosper his people, yea, in the increase of their fields, their flocks and their herds, and in gold, and in silver, and in all manner of precious things of every kind and art; sparing their lives, and delivering them out of the hands of their enemies; softening the hearts of their enemies that they should not declare wars against them; yea, and in fine, doing all things for the welfare and happiness of his people; yea, then is the time that they do harden their hearts, and do forget the Lord their God, and do trample under their feet the Holy One—yea, and this because of their ease, and their exceedingly great prosperity.

3 And thus we see that except the Lord doth chasten his people with many afflictions, yea, except he doth visit them with death and with terror, and with famine and with all manner of pestilence, they will not remember him.

4 O how foolish, and how vain, and how evil, and devilish, and how quick to do iniquity, and how slow to do good, are the children of men; yea, how quick to hearken unto the words of the evil one, and to set their hearts upon the vain things of the world!

I don't necessarily think one has to just take everything they have and give it all away. I know that Jesus asked the rich young man to do that, but I've always wondered if that was his Abrahamic test. Abraham was told to kill his only son, but remember, he ended up not having to do it. Could it be that if the rich young man said, "Ok, Jesus, I'll do it immediately." that the Savior might have said, "There's no need, you passed the test, your heart is in the right place."

I think what matters most is that we are always willing to sacrifice all things and also be willing to do so if called upon or if necessary. There are people who are wealthy (most Americans and probably everyone in this forum who owns a computer or phone capable of commenting here while others live in dirt shacks around the world) who do much good in the world. I think living the principle of voluntary consecration is the most divine way we can aspire to and I think many of us are in a position to do that through the fast offering program if they so desired.

There's no reason why you couldn't determine the amount of your own income which is sufficient for your needs, enough for food, insurance, savings, retirement, etc. and then consecrate any and all surpluses above that to the Lord. Marion G. Romney said as much:

[We] should live strictly by the principles of the United Order insofar as they are embraced in present church practices such as the fast offering, tithing and the welfare activities. Through these practices we could as individuals, if we wished to do so, implement in our own lives all the basic principles of the United Order…. What prohibits us from giving as much in fast offerings as we would have given in surpluses under the United Order? Nothing but our own limitations. (Marion G. Romney, Improvement Era, June 1966, p. 537.)

Beautiful stuff ...Gracias mi amigo!

[drtanner]

Those in the Book of Mormon are a good example of how the Lord may not always require the sacrifice of all earthly things as a test. Certainly if he did it would be important to obey, but is that what he really wants?

Alma 1:27 And they did impart of their substance, every man according to that which he had, to the poor, and the needy, and the sick, and the afflicted; and they did not wear costly apparel, yet they were neat and comely.

28 And thus they did establish the affairs of the church; and thus they began to have continual peace again, notwithstanding all their persecutions.

29 And now, because of the steadiness of the church they began to be exceedingly rich, having abundance of all things whatsoever they stood in need—an abundance of flocks and herds, and fatlings of every kind, and also abundance of grain, and of gold, and of silver, and of precious things, and abundance of silk and fine-twined linen, and all manner of good homely cloth.

30 And thus, in their prosperous circumstances, they did not send away any who were naked, or that were hungry, or that were athirst, or that were sick, or that had not been nourished; and they did not set their hearts upon riches; therefore they were liberal to all, both old and young, both bond and free, both male and female, whether out of the church or in the church, having no respect to persons as to those who stood in need.

31 And thus they did prosper and become far more wealthy than those who did not belong to their church.

Alma 62:48 And the people of Nephi began to prosper again in the land, and began to multiply and to wax exceedingly strong again in the land. And they began to grow exceedingly rich.

49 But notwithstanding their riches, or their strength, or their prosperity, they were not lifted up in the pride of their eyes; neither were they slow to remember the Lord their God; but they did humble themselves exceedingly before him.

50 Yea, they did remember how great things the Lord had done for them, that he had delivered them from death, and from bonds, and from prisons, and from all manner of afflictions, and he had delivered them out of the hands of their enemies.

51 And they did pray unto the Lord their God continually, insomuch that the Lord did bless them, according to his word, so that they did wax strong and prosper in the land.

God wants a partner with him in his work. Is our willingness and the condition of our heart simply part of our preparation so that we can be ready for the work?

[diligently seeking]

Those in the Book of Mormon are a good example of how the Lord may not always require the sacrifice of all earthly things as a test. Certainly if he did it would be important to obey, but is that what he really wants?

Alma 1:27 And they did impart of their substance, every man according to that which he had, to the poor, and the needy, and the sick, and the afflicted; and they did not wear costly apparel, yet they were neat and comely.

28 And thus they did establish the affairs of the church; and thus they began to have continual peace again, notwithstanding all their persecutions.

29 And now, because of the steadiness of the church they began to be exceedingly rich, having abundance of all things whatsoever they stood in need—an abundance of flocks and herds, and fatlings of every kind, and also abundance of grain, and of gold, and of silver, and of precious things, and abundance of silk and fine-twined linen, and all manner of good homely cloth.

30 And thus, in their prosperous circumstances, they did not send away any who were naked, or that were hungry, or that were athirst, or that were sick, or that had not been nourished; and they did not set their hearts upon riches; therefore they were liberal to all, both old and young, both bond and free, both male and female, whether out of the church or in the church, having no respect to persons as to those who stood in need.

31 And thus they did prosper and become far more wealthy than those who did not belong to their church.

Alma 62:48 And the people of Nephi began to prosper again in the land, and began to multiply and to wax exceedingly strong again in the land. And they began to grow exceedingly rich.

49 But notwithstanding their riches, or their strength, or their prosperity, they were not lifted up in the pride of their eyes; neither were they slow to remember the Lord their God; but they did humble themselves exceedingly before him.

50 Yea, they did remember how great things the Lord had done for them, that he had delivered them from death, and from bonds, and from prisons, and from all manner of afflictions, and he had delivered them out of the hands of their enemies.

51 And they did pray unto the Lord their God continually, insomuch that the Lord did bless them, according to his word, so that they did wax strong and prosper in the land.

God wants a partner with him in his work. Is our willingness and the condition of our heart simply part of our preparation so that we can be ready for the work?

"Let us here observe, that three things are necessary in order that any rational and intelligent being may exercise faith in God unto life and salvation. First, the idea that He actually exists.

Secondly, a correct idea of His character, perfections, and attributes.

Thirdly, an actual knowledge that the course of life which he is pursuing is according to His will.

(Joseph Smith, Lectures on Faith, 3:2-5)

Matthew 11:

28Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

29Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

30For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

"Actually, meekness is not only an attribute essential for itself; Moroni declared that it is also vital because one simply cannot develop those other crucial virtues—faith, hope, and charity—without meekness. In the ecology of the eternal attributes these cardinal characteristics are inextricably bound up together. Among them, meekness is often the initiator, the facilitator, and the consolidator.

"Moreover, if one needs any further persuasion as to how vital this virtue is, Moroni warned, “none is acceptable before God save the meek and the lowly in heart” (Moroni 7:44).

If we could but believe, really believe, in the reality of that bold but accurate declaration, you and I would then find ourselves focusing on the crucial rather than the marginal tasks in life! We would then cease pursuing life-styles which, inevitably and irrevocably, are going out of style!" Elder Neil A. Maxwell

[gardener4life]

Brigham Young saw our day and you will recall that many people have brought up his quote of seeing our day and seeing that we won't be able to handle wealth....why would he have seen that except he'd been praying to Heavenly Father to know if this place will last for us in being able to live here?

This is very serious right now. We can see that our inability to handle wealth is putting us at the verge of events such as 3 Nephi 16;10.

I think that we wouldn't be required to sacrifice our wealth if we could already handle sharing it. So if you could handle sharing, then you wouldn't have to learn giving a lot up. Don't you find that more interesting? So if would be able to handle giving good paying jobs or opportunities to NON-RELATIVES and love them too. Then things could be fixable. But the way I see it now most LDS people cannot handle something as simple as giving a handicapped person a job without firing them 2 weeks later, cannot handle another person to be equal with us in pay, cannot also handle cutting other people loose from jobs for little or no reason instead of forgiveness and patience.

Then there's the story of the young man talking to Jesus and asks what lack I yet. The Savior says to give to the poor after selling all he had. But then you forget the second part of the story; you later read that the Romans descended upon and sacked Jerusalem to the point of nothing being left alive. If the young man had followed Jesus he would have avoided tragedy. So sometimes we're asked to give, not realizing that act of giving is what would save us from a lot of tragedy and sorrow.

[marc]

I have been chastised by the Lord personally. I have learned some very humbling lessons. I know what it is like to lose a house. I know what it's like to have to sell and give away most everything. I know what it is like to consecrate all to the Lord, too. I was sooo attached to all my "things." The saints had to learn some powerful lessons, which many failed as recorded in D&C 101 when they polluted their inheritances.

I don't even consider this body mine. When I look in the mirror, I don't see "me." I see a mortal dwelling for my spirit. I dwell in a tabernacle of clay that belongs to God. And He will destroy every temple that is defiled. If we do not learn to stand in these holy places, we will pay a heavy price. May we all shudder and hasten to sanctify ourselves today.

[diligently seeking]

I have been chastised by the Lord personally. I have learned some very humbling lessons. I know what it is like to lose a house. I know what it's like to have to sell and give away most everything. I know what it is like to consecrate all to the Lord, too. I was sooo attached to all my "things." The saints had to learn some powerful lessons, which many failed as recorded in D&C 101 when they polluted their inheritances.

I don't even consider this body mine. When I look in the mirror, I don't see "me." I see a mortal dwelling for my spirit. I dwell in a tabernacle of clay that belongs to God. And He will destroy every temple that is defiled. If we do not learn to stand in these holy places, we will pay a heavy price. May we all shudder and hasten to sanctify ourselves today.

Amen.