No, Jesus didn’t ‘hang out’ with sinners

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EmmaLee
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No, Jesus didn’t ‘hang out’ with sinners

Postby EmmaLee » Sat May 13, 2017 2:55 pm

http://www.theblaze.com/contributions/m ... h-sinners/

"I was recently informed by a fellow Christian that it’s perfectly OK for a follower of Christ to march in a gay pride parade because, as he explained it, “Jesus hung out with sinners.” It was far from the first time that I’ve heard a clearly objectionable act justified on these grounds. This is just one of the many dubious slogans that has overwhelmed and suffocated the faith in our country. For many of us, our faith is really nothing more than a collection of these empty mantras, which we confidently shout over and over again, hoping repetition will make them true.

Of course, “Jesus hung out with sinners” is a loaded statement. There’s always some erroneous insinuation or conclusion attached to it. “Jesus hung out with sinners, therefore [xyz].” Jesus hung out with sinners, therefore it’s OK for me to do whatever it is I’m doing right now. Jesus hung out with sinners, therefore I need not follow whatever commandment or moral teaching we’re currently discussing. Jesus hung out with sinners, therefore this sin that we’re discussing isn’t as bad as you suggest.

I’ve heard “Jesus hung out with sinners” as a sincere justification for going to strip clubs and gay bars. I’ve seen “Jesus hung out with sinners” trotted out during debates about pornography. Somehow “Jesus hung out with sinners” tends even to enter discussions of abortion. “Jesus hung out with sinners, therefore killing babies is alright.” Generally, whatever the application, the argument is always that Jesus “hung out with” such and such a sinner, which means He didn’t mind such and such a sin.

Last week I wrote a piece about misconceptions around the idea of Christian compassion, and many of the critical responses hinged on this theme. One example:

“Matt, this was nothing but a badly disguised anti-gay diatribe. Jesus would have hung out with the people you are judging. Jesus wasn’t judgmental and in your face like you. He didn’t shove religion down people’s throats. Jesus hung out with sinners….” Etc. and so forth.

Leaving aside the bizarre contention that any discussion of Christian morality is automatically “anti-gay” (I didn’t mention gays in the post at all), what we have here is just your standard “Jesus hung out with sinners” formulation. Jesus “hung out” with people who sinned, ipso facto Jesus had no problem with the sins they committed. And if it were true that Christ merely “hung out” with people, this line of logic would hold a little water.

After all, “hanging out” is an inherently accepting, or at least indifferent, act. It’s casual and trivial. It has no purpose beyond itself. The phrase “hanging out” is almost never used to describe a deep, meaningful, or intimate interaction between two people. We use it precisely to signify the opposite. “Oh, we just hung out.” In other words, there wasn’t much going on. There was no agenda. We were just sort of occupying the same space together.

There’s a reason why many people in my generation, as deathly afraid of commitment as we tend to be, will often reject the term “dating” and instead say of our romantic partners, “We’re just hanging out.” Meaning, this isn’t necessarily going anywhere, nor do I intend it to. So, if that’s the only reason Christ came to Earth — to “just hang out” with us — then, sure, I guess your favorite sin isn’t so bad. If the Son of God didn’t mind “hanging out” around it, how terrible could it be?

But that’s not what happened. That’s not what Jesus did. Jesus didn’t hang out with sinners, and since we’re all sinners, it must be said that Jesus didn’t hang out with anyone. This is not semantics. The phrase has certain connotations, and those connotations are dangerous and misleading. Let’s look at the two most dangerous implications of this popular saying:

1) “Hanging out” implies approval or indifference.

If I first learned about Jesus from the people who typically put forth this vision of the “hanging out” Christ, I’d come away with the impression that He was a super chill dude who meandered around Galilee constantly flanked by rowdy drunks and scantily clad hookers. I’d think that Our Lord was some sort of deadbeat who ran with an edgier crowd because He was bored and it was something to do. I’d imagine Him sitting on the curb with His posse making banal small talk and watching the day go by.

Ultimately, I’d conclude that Christ was not someone who shepherded the lost and the aimless, but who actually was lost and aimless. This is the conclusion I’m meant to draw. It’s why these people rather conspicuously choose the phrase “hung out with” instead of more accurate options like “taught” or “guided” or “ministered to.”

It’s true that Scripture tells us of Christ eating with sinners (Luke 15:1) and publicly coming to their defense, as was the case with the adulteress who faced public stoning. And, yes, in simply speaking up for them, or to them, He was defying social customs of the time and causing heart palpitations in the poor Pharisees who’d never before witnessed such a thing. The New Testament tells several stories along these lines. But it certainly doesn’t tell any stories where Christ accompanies a sinner in his sin, or sits by while a sin is being committed, or forgoes an opportunity to call a sinner to a life of holiness.

Christ dined with sinners in order to draw them closer to the truth. To the adulteress He said, “Sin no more.” To anyone who came to Him, He said, “Pick up your cross and follow me.” Christ instructed. He exhorted. He commanded. He showed the way. He did not “hang out.” There was a purpose to all of these encounters, and the purpose was always to bring the sinner out of his sin. The purpose, in other words, was to heal them.

If we say that Christ “hung out” with sinners, then we must say that a doctor “hangs out” with his patients. But we wouldn’t say that about a doctor, would we? You may enjoy making friendly conversation with your physician, but that’s not why you schedule an appointment with him. You go to him to be treated. And it’s for the same reason that we sinners go to Christ. “They that are whole need not a physician; but they that are sick. I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.” (Luke 5:31)

Something else to keep in mind: Christ dined with and interacted with those sinners who came to him. They were repentant. They sought Him because they desired holiness. Jesus was not ever seen fraternizing with unrepentant evildoers who had no interest in salvation. Really, Our Lord wasn’t even polite to those types of people. He excoriated them as “hypocrites” and “vipers.” Christ wouldn’t so much as speak a word to Herod. When He came across the money changers in the temple, He drove them out violently. He rebuked and corrected at many other points, often using the sort of language that would earn Him a stern lecture from the weak-kneed Christians of today.

Remember, also, that St. Paul tells us not to eat with someone who is “guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater or drunkard.” Is the Apostle contradicting Jesus? Or is he contradicting our silly ideas about Jesus? I’d say the latter. St. Paul is warning us against consorting with those who are impenitent and boastful in their sin. Christ would not have shared a table with those sorts, and neither should we. And that means Christ would not have dined at a strip club, and, no, he would not have accompanied homosexuals as they were marching in a gay pride parade. He would not have walked compliantly along as people were literally announcing their “pride” in their sin. He would not have “hung out” while sin was committed and promoted in His presence. And neither should we.

2) It makes our relationship with Jesus seem trivial and casual.

This is one of the great problems in the church today. We have created such a casual image of Christ that it borders on profane. We portray our Lord and Savior as just one of the guys. There is no awe, or fear, or submission in how we approach Him. We speak of Him like we’re His equals.

I think a lot of this stems from the “Jesus is my friend” idea that’s grabbed a hold of western Christendom in recent decades. And there’s truth to it, in one sense. Jesus calls us His friends on several occasions in Scripture, most notably in that beautiful line from John: “Greater love has no man than this, that he lay down his life for his friends.” But Jesus is entitled to call us whatever He wants to call us. It is through His radical humility and perfect compassion that He deigns to dignify us with such a label. We should not take it as a license to treat Christ as we would treat one of our friends here on Earth. Yes, He chose to be a friend to us, but He is still, first and foremost, our God and our Master.

Look at it like this: I would say that I’m a “friend” to my children, but I’m not “one of their friends.” I’m a friend to them in that I care for them and want what is best for them. In that way, I’m more their friend than any friend they have or will have, until they get married. But I’m still their father, and my “friendship” with them will always be in that context. If my son ever introduced me to his friends as “My buddy, Matt,” I would pull him immediately to the side and reprimand him. And if he said, “Well, I thought you were my friend,” I would respond, “Yes, but I’m your father first, and never forget it, son.”

We, as Christians, have forgotten it. That’s why there is so little reverence in our modern Christianity. Even in our churches you see few hints that those assembled understand that they are assembled to worship the Lord of all Creation. From the plucky, ridiculous music, to the way they’re dressed, to the way the pastor carries himself, you can find scant evidence that anyone involved has even the faintest appreciation for what’s taking place. It’s all so casual. We’re just there to hang out, I guess.

I wonder, how do we think we’d react if Jesus appeared before us in the flesh? Do we imagine we’d saunter over to Him, confident and casual, and give Him a high five like some drinking buddy we haven’t seen in a few years? “Hey, Jesus, my man! Great to see you!”

Or would we fall to our knees in wonder and terror, feeling unworthy to look upon the face of the living God? And, if we were able to speak at all, would we only be able to stutter the words of St. Thomas, “My Lord and my God”? Would we greet him like a “friend,” or would we tremble in His glorious presence? Would we stand before Him as equals, or would we collapse on the ground in total submission? Would we want to “hang out” with this Almighty Being, or would we desire only to lie at His feet and worship Him for all eternity?

Well, I suppose we’ll find out soon enough. We’ll all be brought before the throne of God one day. And there will be nothing casual about our interaction with Him then. God won’t be sanitized or made “safe” with dumb slogans and bad music and bland sermons. All of that will be stripped away, and there will be only Him there before us, bigger than the universe itself, with eyes like planets and a face like the Sun. If the thought of this moment doesn’t fill you with an indescribable mix of fear and joy, then I question whether you even believe in God at all. That’s the problem with an irreverent and casual faith: it’s not a faith. At least, it’s not a faith in the God that actually exists.

There is nothing casual about any of this. The Christian mission has nothing to do with “hanging out.” The only kind of hanging that Christ did was on the Cross, for the redemption of mankind. That’s what He did for filthy sinners like you and me. He didn’t just “accompany” us or chill out in the background while we marched headfirst into Hell. He died in agony to release us from our sin. How quickly and how often we seem to forget that fact." ~ Matt Walsh
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David13
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Re: No, Jesus didn’t ‘hang out’ with sinners

Postby David13 » Sat May 13, 2017 3:11 pm

Amen.
I was thinking about this for the past week.
Many people have this image of Jesus Christ, that he was some sort of "cool cat" or "hippie" or "dude'" that was all about "peace and love, man!"
And that he walked around handing out "spare change" to any doper or drunk looking for their next fix or bottle.
None of that is reflected anywhere in the scriptures.
To the contrary, as pointed out in this article, what he did with sinners was preach to them.
"Go forth and sin no more" he said to the prostitute. Not "hey man, that's cool."

I wonder if it is stimulated by the graven images seen in so many places. The depiction of Jesus Christ as a long haired, bearded man. If it's conducive then I definitely think those images should be abandoned.

But I actually believe that we are commanded to make no image of God the Father, nor his son Jesus Christ.
dc

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Re: No, Jesus didn’t ‘hang out’ with sinners

Postby EmmaLee » Sat May 13, 2017 3:15 pm

I know more Mormons that have this attitude than anyone else. Without exception, they use it to justify something.
Arguing with a fool only proves there are two.

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Re: No, Jesus didn’t ‘hang out’ with sinners

Postby kittycat51 » Sat May 13, 2017 3:38 pm

I love Matt Walsh
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Sarah
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Re: No, Jesus didn’t ‘hang out’ with sinners

Postby Sarah » Sat May 13, 2017 5:56 pm

A good reminder on the importance of reverence.

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Rensai
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Re: No, Jesus didn’t ‘hang out’ with sinners

Postby Rensai » Sun May 14, 2017 12:11 am

David13 wrote:
Sat May 13, 2017 3:11 pm
Amen.
I was thinking about this for the past week.
Many people have this image of Jesus Christ, that he was some sort of "cool cat" or "hippie" or "dude'" that was all about "peace and love, man!"
And that he walked around handing out "spare change" to any doper or drunk looking for their next fix or bottle.
None of that is reflected anywhere in the scriptures.
To the contrary, as pointed out in this article, what he did with sinners was preach to them.
"Go forth and sin no more" he said to the prostitute. Not "hey man, that's cool."
Exactly. Christ was not a Hippie and he is not tolerant of sin. He is kind and loving, but not tolerant, yet many people think tolerance is a great virtue, maybe the greatest. Which is really just another lie used to convince Christians we can/should do nothing to combat sin lest we offend someone or seem intolerant.
D&C 1:31 For I the Lord cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance;
another related blog post from Matt Walsh.
http://themattwalshblog.com/2014/04/07/ ... hould-you/
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Re: No, Jesus didn’t ‘hang out’ with sinners

Postby Yahtzee » Sun May 14, 2017 2:33 am

Buddy Jesus. Cousin to Butler Jesus.
Ugh!
I'm glad he wrote this. It needed to be said.
Sorry, we're not Janice Kapp Perry Mormons.

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David13
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Re: No, Jesus didn’t ‘hang out’ with sinners

Postby David13 » Sun May 14, 2017 6:51 am

Rensai wrote:
Sun May 14, 2017 12:11 am
David13 wrote:
Sat May 13, 2017 3:11 pm
Amen.
I was thinking about this for the past week.
Many people have this image of Jesus Christ, that he was some sort of "cool cat" or "hippie" or "dude'" that was all about "peace and love, man!"
And that he walked around handing out "spare change" to any doper or drunk looking for their next fix or bottle.
None of that is reflected anywhere in the scriptures.
To the contrary, as pointed out in this article, what he did with sinners was preach to them.
"Go forth and sin no more" he said to the prostitute. Not "hey man, that's cool."
Exactly. Christ was not a Hippie and he is not tolerant of sin. He is kind and loving, but not tolerant, yet many people think tolerance is a great virtue, maybe the greatest. Which is really just another lie used to convince Christians we can/should do nothing to combat sin lest we offend someone or seem intolerant.
D&C 1:31 For I the Lord cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance;
another related blog post from Matt Walsh.
http://themattwalshblog.com/2014/04/07/ ... hould-you/

Amen again.
"Nice Jesus". Nicey, nice. And tolerance as the most important thing. i agree. That's where things start to go wrong.
dc

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Re: No, Jesus didn’t ‘hang out’ with sinners

Postby Silver Pie » Sun May 14, 2017 5:34 pm

It sounds like the thing that is overlooked is that Jesus did hang out with sinners, but he didn't sin. He did not participate in their sins. He loved and accepted them in spite of their sins. He showed them a better way. And, it seems like, many of them were touched by his willingness to accept them and repented - while the "righteous" condemned him for hanging out with sinners and performing miracles on the wrong day (Sabbath). There is a world of difference between hanging out with those who need the Lord, and doing their sins with them.
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Re: No, Jesus didn’t ‘hang out’ with sinners

Postby inho » Mon May 15, 2017 12:40 am

Silver Pie wrote:
Sun May 14, 2017 5:34 pm
It sounds like the thing that is overlooked is that Jesus did hang out with sinners, but he didn't sin. He did not participate in their sins. He loved and accepted them in spite of their sins. He showed them a better way. And, it seems like, many of them were touched by his willingness to accept them and repented - while the "righteous" condemned him for hanging out with sinners and performing miracles on the wrong day (Sabbath). There is a world of difference between hanging out with those who need the Lord, and doing their sins with them.
The only times I have heard someone to say that Jesus hang out with sinners is when they meant exactly what Silver Pie wrote.

The OP says:
EmmaLee wrote:http://www.theblaze.com/contributions/m ... h-sinners/
...
1) “Hanging out” implies approval or indifference.
I guess I use those words differently, since I disagree with this.
If we say that Christ “hung out” with sinners, then we must say that a doctor “hangs out” with his patients. You may enjoy making friendly conversation with your physician, but that’s not why you schedule an appointment with him. You go to him to be treated. And it’s for the same reason that we sinners go to Christ.
The relationship between Jesus and the sinners wasn't a professional one. He truly loved them and was their friend. He didn't participate in the sinning, nor did he accept it. But he didn't treat them like patients either. Loving people and being friendly to them is part of helping them to repent.

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Re: No, Jesus didn’t ‘hang out’ with sinners

Postby David13 » Mon May 15, 2017 6:46 am

inho wrote:
Mon May 15, 2017 12:40 am
"Loving people and being friendly to them is part of helping them to repent."
Or not. Or just enabling and encouraging their sin.

There is absolutely no evidence that Jesus Christ "hung out", loitered, or otherwise spent time "doing nothing" in an immoral situation.

We ourselves are admonished to stand in holy places, are we not? Just what does that mean?

Jesus Christ did not "spend time" with the prostitute. He did not go to her room and "chill". Or sit around and chit chat, small talk and all.

He strictly admonished her. He told her to go forth and sin no more. He gave her a direct and personal commandment.

Tell me, are commandments part of the usual "hanging out" or loitering?

Or "chilling". I don't think so.

I don't think there is any evidence anywhere in the bible that Jesus Christ was a "non-judgmental" hipster, or "cool cat".

What I see is directly to the contrary.

He was 100% morality. And admonition.
dc

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Re: No, Jesus didn’t ‘hang out’ with sinners

Postby inho » Mon May 15, 2017 6:58 am

Mark 2

14 And as he passed by, he saw Levi the son of Alphæus sitting at the receipt of custom, and said unto him, Follow me. And he arose and followed him.

15 And it came to pass, that, as Jesus sat at meat in his house, many publicans and sinners sat also together with Jesus and his disciples: for there were many, and they followed him.

16 And when the scribes and Pharisees saw him eat with publicans and sinners, they said unto his disciples, How is it that he eateth and drinketh with publicans and sinners?

17 When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
Jesus ate with sinners. Pharisees couldn't understand that he had anything to do with them. It is true that these sinners were among the followers of Jesus, but regardless they were sinners. Unlike the Pharisees, Jesus understood that it is better to show them love while they still are sinners and not just wait that they will repent and then accept them as friends.

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Re: No, Jesus didn’t ‘hang out’ with sinners

Postby David13 » Mon May 15, 2017 7:07 am

inho wrote:
Mon May 15, 2017 6:58 am
Mark 2



17 ... "I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance."
What does that mean? Does it mean "chill" or "hang out", or "soothe them in their sin"?
dc

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Re: No, Jesus didn’t ‘hang out’ with sinners

Postby inho » Mon May 15, 2017 7:24 am

Mark 2
17 ... "I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance."
David13 wrote:
Mon May 15, 2017 7:07 am
What does that mean? ... or "soothe them in their sin"?
dc
I have never suggested anything like that.

15 ... Jesus sat at meat in his house, many publicans and sinners sat also together with Jesus
What does that mean? Does it mean "chill" or "hang out"?
I would say so.

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Re: No, Jesus didn’t ‘hang out’ with sinners

Postby David13 » Mon May 15, 2017 8:08 am

inho wrote:
Mon May 15, 2017 7:24 am
Mark 2
17 ... "I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance."
David13 wrote:
Mon May 15, 2017 7:07 am
What does that mean? ... or "soothe them in their sin"?
dc
I have never suggested anything like that.

15 ... Jesus sat at meat in his house, many publicans and sinners sat also together with Jesus
What does that mean? Does it mean "chill" or "hang out"?
I would say so.

I disagree. I do not believe Jesus Christ was an idler or a slacker. He had a mission to preach the Gospel and I believe he did so.
dc

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Re: No, Jesus didn’t ‘hang out’ with sinners

Postby alaris » Mon May 15, 2017 8:18 am

Jesus hung out with sinners like a doctor hangs out with sick people.
Ecclesiastes 1:9 The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun. false traditions? You must unlearn what you have learned.

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Re: No, Jesus didn’t ‘hang out’ with sinners

Postby inho » Mon May 15, 2017 10:05 am

David13 wrote:
Mon May 15, 2017 8:08 am
I disagree. I do not believe Jesus Christ was an idler or a slacker. He had a mission to preach the Gospel and I believe he did so.
dc
I actually agree with you. When he ate his dinner with sinners, he wasn't being idle. Maybe the phrase 'building relationships of trust' that missionaries used to use, describes what Jesus was doing.

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Re: No, Jesus didn’t ‘hang out’ with sinners

Postby Serragon » Mon May 15, 2017 10:11 am

inho wrote:
Mon May 15, 2017 10:05 am
David13 wrote:
Mon May 15, 2017 8:08 am
I disagree. I do not believe Jesus Christ was an idler or a slacker. He had a mission to preach the Gospel and I believe he did so.
dc
I actually agree with you. When he ate his dinner with sinners, he wasn't being idle. Maybe the phrase 'building relationships of trust' that missionaries used to use, describes what Jesus was doing.
The original article said that "hanging out" gave the implication that Christ actually tolerated the sin and was cool with it. It is in this context that many people use that phrase; to justify some indulgence of the natural man.

It appears that your definition of "hang out" is different. You seem to mean that Christ went to the sinner and ministered to them which seems to be an accurate representation.

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Re: No, Jesus didn’t ‘hang out’ with sinners

Postby inho » Mon May 15, 2017 10:18 am

Serragon wrote:
Mon May 15, 2017 10:11 am
It appears that your definition of "hang out" is different. You seem to mean that Christ went to the sinner and ministered to them which seems to be an accurate representation.
Yes. That is exactly what I tried to say in my first post in this thread.
inho wrote:
Mon May 15, 2017 12:40 am
I said that I have never seen the phrase "Jesus hung out with sinners" used as is described in the OP.

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Re: No, Jesus didn’t ‘hang out’ with sinners

Postby BTH&T » Mon May 15, 2017 10:41 am

This shows how "words" get twisted.

The purposeful twisting of language to soften or gain acceptance from those that want to justify sin is really what this is all about.
We do live in an age where good is called evil, and evil called good.
To me it is because of things like political correctness we are sliding down the STEEP slippery slope!

Jesus was the perfect example of one who always shows love for the person while at the same time never accepting or tolerating sin.
We live in an age that showing love means we accept the sin. Most people today do not think there are many sins.
"It's all good" ... "no big deal", such casual attitudes towards sin.

Reminds me of the scripture.. 2 Nephi 28: 8-9
"And there shall also be many which shall say: Eat, drink, and be merry; nevertheless, fear God—he will justify in committing a little sin; yea, lie a little, take the advantage of one because of his words, dig a pit for thy neighbor; there is no harm in this; and do all these things, for tomorrow we die; and if it so be that we are guilty, God will beat us with a few stripes, and at last we shall be saved in the kingdom of God.
Yea, and there shall be many which shall teach after this manner, false and vain and foolish doctrines, and shall be puffed up in their hearts, and shall seek deep to hide their counsels from the Lord; and their works shall be in the dark."

How do WE properly take the example the Savior gave us and love all, while at the same time not tolerate sin?

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Be Thou Humble & Teachable .... This, a reminder to myself that I need daily!

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Re: No, Jesus didn’t ‘hang out’ with sinners

Postby Finrock » Mon May 15, 2017 1:05 pm

Personally, I've never heard anyone subscribe to the ideas that the OP is speaking to. Meaning, I've never heard anyone use the phrase, "Jesus hung out with the sinners" as a way to justify sinful behavior like abortion, etc. I think most people would agree that using the phrase in such a way is distorted.

If Jesus didn't hang out with sinners, then He wouldn't hang out with any mortal. The fact is that God (Jesus) condescended to hang out with, to speak to, to interact with, and to atone for all sinners. Shoot, God even condescended to speak with Cain, a murderer. To this day God condescends to hang out with, to speak to, and interact with sinners.

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Re: No, Jesus didn’t ‘hang out’ with sinners

Postby Finrock » Mon May 15, 2017 1:18 pm

David13 wrote:
Mon May 15, 2017 6:46 am
inho wrote:
Mon May 15, 2017 12:40 am
"Loving people and being friendly to them is part of helping them to repent."
Or not. Or just enabling and encouraging their sin.

There is absolutely no evidence that Jesus Christ "hung out", loitered, or otherwise spent time "doing nothing" in an immoral situation.

We ourselves are admonished to stand in holy places, are we not? Just what does that mean?

Jesus Christ did not "spend time" with the prostitute. He did not go to her room and "chill". Or sit around and chit chat, small talk and all.

He strictly admonished her. He told her to go forth and sin no more. He gave her a direct and personal commandment.

Tell me, are commandments part of the usual "hanging out" or loitering?

Or "chilling". I don't think so.

I don't think there is any evidence anywhere in the bible that Jesus Christ was a "non-judgmental" hipster, or "cool cat".

What I see is directly to the contrary.

He was 100% morality. And admonition.
dc
I've been a pretty horrible sinner in the course of my life. I make mistakes and screw up even to this day because of my weaknesses. When I was a gross sinner God came down and "hung out with me" when I decided to call for His help. He said that He's been with me all along, even when I thought that He wasn't or when I thought that I wasn't worthy or good enough. He said that He's never left my side and that it was I who turned my back on Him and it was my own unbelief that caused me to feel Him as being distant or somehow not approachable. God has hung out with me several times since on a daily basis. In fact, unless I push Him away, He hangs out with me every day. He goes where I go and is there coaching me and helping me along the way.

God is very jovial. He doesn't stress out. If that means He's "chill" then I would think that He's pretty chill. He isn't that big on judging, actually. Most people don't need to be judged by someone else, they usually have already judged themselves and know pretty well where they stand. Jesus has spent a lot of time with all sorts of people, prostitutes, etc. He doesn't think like us humans. Even though He is superior to us, He doesn't treat us that way or really even think that way. He is humble and very kind. He doesn't want to hurt us in any way. He loves truth, though. He is truth. But, His direction is always filled with immense compassion and understanding. He knows exactly what it feels like to be mortal. He has no expectations of us never doing anything wrong. He gets it. He understands the human condition perfectly. He isn't interested in punishing us or anything of the sort. He wants us to be happy and so that is His primary objective. To be saved is to be with Him and to be with Him means that we will have to rely on His mercy and His grace. That's the only way. We will never be righteous enough to hang out with Him on that basis.

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Re: No, Jesus didn’t ‘hang out’ with sinners

Postby BTH&T » Mon May 15, 2017 1:30 pm

Finrock wrote:
Mon May 15, 2017 1:05 pm
Personally, I've never heard anyone subscribe to the ideas that the OP is speaking to. Meaning, I've never heard anyone use the phrase, "Jesus hung out with the sinners" as a way to justify sinful behavior like abortion, etc. I think most people would agree that using the phrase in such a way is distorted.

If Jesus didn't hang out with sinners, then He wouldn't hang out with any mortal. The fact is that God (Jesus) condescended to hang out with, to speak to, to interact with, and to atone for all sinners. Shoot, God even condescended to speak with Cain, a murderer. To this day God condescends to hang out with, to speak to, and interact with sinners.

-Finrock
I may not have heard it put in the words "hang out" but more in a general sense I've heard that tone.
The LGBT types seem to use Jesus' love for all as "accepting" all. This is an evil tool to make wrong things seem right, IMO.
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Re: No, Jesus didn’t ‘hang out’ with sinners

Postby EmmaLee » Mon May 15, 2017 1:58 pm

I've heard it with those exact words - "Jesus hung out with..." too many times to count - including here on LDSFF, usually by people who have left the Church or claim to still be members, but constantly complain about aspects of it, etc. My sister (who served a faithful LDS mission, and was married in the temple) also uses it to condone her adultery. In her mind (and yes, I know what's in her mind, because she's told me repeatedly), Jesus "hanging out" with people who are overtly sinning with no desire to repent (or even admitting they have anything to repent for - which is absurd, as we all do) is Jesus' way of saying, "Ah heck, what you're doing is not so bad - it's a rough world - no probs." To the people who I personally know who use this exact phrase and connotation as in Matt's article above - that is the overriding theme, and they view it just as he described in his write-up.
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Re: No, Jesus didn’t ‘hang out’ with sinners

Postby Silver Pie » Thu May 18, 2017 6:39 pm

Now I understand, better, where you're coming from, EmmaLee. The difference is in how we view the phrase "hang out."

When I was a teenager in the 60s and 70s, we used the word all the time. It was the language of our generation. The definition was, "spend time with." It did not mean, "Do what they're doing all the time." It did not mean, "Do something wrong because the person you're with is doing it." You could leave if you were invited to go to some sin (a bar, drinking, drugs). To hang out did not mean to be with someone 24/7. I have hung out with people who did not share my standards of what I thought was right, but I did not do what they did. Sometimes they got mad at me. Sometimes we stopped being friends. But most of the time, they accepted that we were different, and they were okay with that.
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Re: No, Jesus didn’t ‘hang out’ with sinners

Postby Finrock » Fri May 19, 2017 7:53 am

I think Jesus hangs out with sinners. If "hangs out" means Jesus condones or approves of sinful behavior, then, I agree, Jesus does not hang out with sinners. However, I've never understood that phrase to mean that and I've never seen others use it that way. I understand that others have and I don't deny that. I'm just saying the way I've used the phrase is to show how Jesus is not afraid to be with people who are living differently than Him and that He is not self-righteous, haughty, or condescending.

When I say Jesus hangs out with sinners, I mean that Jesus condescends to be with and to interact with people who are living in sin or with sin. He recognizes people for who they are and He sees them from an eternal perspective. Neither does Jesus have the same worldly tendency to form cliques.

But, even if we take the idea that Jesus doesn't condone or approve of sin, that still doesn't mean that He looks at people who are sinning with disgust, arrogance, or with self-righteous superiority. I've seen the latter happen more often than I've seen people use the phrase "Jesus hung out with sinners" to mean He condones sinning. I've seen people, much like the brother in the Parable of the Prodigal Son, who feel that they are better than those who are living in sin or who are, as Pres. Uchtdorf said, "sinning differently" than they are. Since I'm a life long member, my experiences are mostly with members of the Church, but I'm sure this happens in other circles too. I mention this so people don't think I'm just picking on members again. I am just limited to the frame of reference that I exist in.

In any case, I see members who go to Church each Sunday, they pay their tithing, go to the temple weekly, do their home teaching, go to most activities of the Church, are meticulous about their callings, do family home evenings, they pray each day, etc. They use these activities as a means to feel like they are righteous. They believe that because they are doing these things, they are, in essence, better than the person who smokes cigarettes, or only goes to the temple once a month, or what have you. I've been in enough correlation meetings, quorum meetings, and listened in on enough discussions to know that some members feel the way I'm describing. I've also been the target of some of these individuals in the past.

I will say that I personally don't condemn this behavior because I recognize that most people who are feeling this way (self-righteous and condescending) aren't even aware of what it is they are doing. Or, they are just a product of their environment and culture. So, I get it and just like any other sinner, like myself, I try to have compassion and I try to be understanding of their condition. And, this is ultimately, what I think Christ does. I know this sounds like I'm patting myself on the back, but I'm not. Trust me, I have my own issues. But, I think Christ isn't afraid to get His hands dirty, so to speak. He is very much in the thick of things. I don't feel that He is as worried about us sinning as much as we are worried sometimes about others sinning. And, when He "worries" about us sinning, I don't think it's with disgust, superiority, or with any kind of selfish or self-centered motivation. I think He just wants us to be happy and to have joy and so He is interested in turning our hearts around. But, the way that He goes about doing this is not by judging and condemning, but through love, understanding, and compassion. Yes, sometimes when we are chastised, our pride makes it feel like its some sort of a retribution that is being inflicted upon us, however, the chastisement of God comes from a place of love, goodness, and kindness.

I think we must always understand and remember that there is no action or "works" that we can perform that will take away our sins. God condescended to be with us not because of our righteousness, but in spite of our righteousness. No matter how good we think we are, we never are profitable servants. We never earn salvation. We never are in fact "worthy" of the good that we receive from God. So, we should never treat others any differently than God has treated us. If we always retain in our minds our own filthiness and our own weakness and our own unworthiness, then we will look upon others who might be sinning differently than we are (or perhaps they are on a different stage of the path), with mercy, compassion, and kindness and not be afraid to get in there and show that mercy, compassion and kindness by hanging out with them and uplifting them the best that we can and know how. That is how God treated me and treats me. He loved me first and so I try to love others as He has loved me (and I fail most days, but just saying I'm trying :)) ).

-Finrock
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Re: No, Jesus didn’t ‘hang out’ with sinners

Postby Meili » Fri May 19, 2017 1:35 pm

A lot of people on this thread know a lot about Jesus.
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Re: No, Jesus didn’t ‘hang out’ with sinners

Postby Michelle » Sat May 20, 2017 10:45 pm

I grew up in a family where "don't judge" was preached above all else. It is a false doctrine. There were many situations I could have avoided had I used judgement. Righteous judgement, like the kind I heard from the prophets. For example, being wise about choosing friends. I thought I was following Jesus' example by not judging, but unhappy experiences taught me I was missing something and then I saw the Joseph Smith Translation of Matthew 7:1JST Matt. 7:1–2 Now these are the words which Jesus taught his disciples that they should say unto the people. Judge not unrighteously, that ye be not judged; but judge righteous judgment.

A significant difference from the KJV of the Bible :"Judge not, that ye be not judged."

Then I read the True to the Faith Pamphlet put out by the Church for the youth and later adapted to the Topics portion of lds.org.

Topics: judging others: https://www.lds.org/topics/judging-others?lang=eng

"Judgment is an important use of our agency and requires great care, especially when we make judgments about other people. All our judgments must be guided by righteous standards. Only God, who knows each individual's heart, can make final judgments of individuals.

Sometimes people feel that it is wrong to judge others in any way. While it is true that we should not condemn others or judge them unrighteously, we will need to make judgments of ideas, situations, and people throughout our lives. The Lord has given many commandments that we cannot keep without making judgments. For example, He has said: “Beware of false prophets. … Ye shall know them by their fruits” (Matthew 7:15-16) and “Go ye out from among the wicked” (D&C 38:42). We need to make judgments of people in many of our important decisions, such as choosing friends, voting for government leaders, and choosing a spouse.

The Lord gave a warning to guide us in our judgment of others: “With what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged; and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother: Let me pull the mote out of thine eye—and behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast the mote out of thy brother's eye” (3 Nephi 14:2-5).

In this scripture passage the Lord teaches that a fault we see in another is often like a tiny speck in that person's eye, compared to our own faults, which are like an enormous beam in our eyes. Sometimes we focus on others' faults when we should instead be working to improve ourselves.

Our righteous judgments about others can provide needed guidance for them and, in some cases, protection for us and our families. We should approach any such judgment with care and compassion. As much as we can, we should judge people's situations rather than judging the people themselves. Whenever possible, we should refrain from making judgments until we have an adequate knowledge of the facts. And we should always be sensitive to the Holy Spirit, who can guide our decisions. Alma's counsel to his son Corianton is a helpful reminder: “See that you are merciful unto your brethren; deal justly, judge righteously, and do good continually” (Alma 41:14)."

I am teaching my kids to use righteous judgement. They are, thus far, avoiding many of my mistakes. Lesson learned, lesson taught.

That, I really believe, is what Jesus did. Loving someone doesn't mean going along with whatever they want.

When Jesus "hung out" with sinners, it was sinners who wanted to be saints, but recognized their sins. He didn't hang out with those who gloried in their sin or had no intention of listening and learning from him. From what I read, Jesus had three main responses: answer the sincere seeker; answer the wicked, if the righteous might hear and learn from it; remain silent if only among the wicked and no change would come from contending with them.

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Re: No, Jesus didn’t ‘hang out’ with sinners

Postby EmmaLee » Sun May 21, 2017 5:21 am

Fascinating. Thank you for all your responses. Someone should do a study or write a paper on all the different versions of Jesus people with various links to Mormonism believe in.
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Re: No, Jesus didn’t ‘hang out’ with sinners

Postby Meili » Sun May 21, 2017 6:02 am

Michelle wrote:
Sat May 20, 2017 10:45 pm
I grew up in a family where "don't judge" was preached above all else. It is a false doctrine. There were many situations I could have avoided had I used judgement. Righteous judgement, like the kind I heard from the prophets. For example, being wise about choosing friends. I thought I was following Jesus' example by not judging, but unhappy experiences taught me I was missing something and then I saw the Joseph Smith Translation of Matthew 7:1JST Matt. 7:1–2 Now these are the words which Jesus taught his disciples that they should say unto the people. Judge not unrighteously, that ye be not judged; but judge righteous judgment.

A significant difference from the KJV of the Bible :"Judge not, that ye be not judged."

Then I read the True to the Faith Pamphlet put out by the Church for the youth and later adapted to the Topics portion of lds.org.

Topics: judging others: https://www.lds.org/topics/judging-others?lang=eng

"Judgment is an important use of our agency and requires great care, especially when we make judgments about other people. All our judgments must be guided by righteous standards. Only God, who knows each individual's heart, can make final judgments of individuals.

Sometimes people feel that it is wrong to judge others in any way. While it is true that we should not condemn others or judge them unrighteously, we will need to make judgments of ideas, situations, and people throughout our lives. The Lord has given many commandments that we cannot keep without making judgments. For example, He has said: “Beware of false prophets. … Ye shall know them by their fruits” (Matthew 7:15-16) and “Go ye out from among the wicked” (D&C 38:42). We need to make judgments of people in many of our important decisions, such as choosing friends, voting for government leaders, and choosing a spouse.

The Lord gave a warning to guide us in our judgment of others: “With what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged; and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother: Let me pull the mote out of thine eye—and behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast the mote out of thy brother's eye” (3 Nephi 14:2-5).

In this scripture passage the Lord teaches that a fault we see in another is often like a tiny speck in that person's eye, compared to our own faults, which are like an enormous beam in our eyes. Sometimes we focus on others' faults when we should instead be working to improve ourselves.

Our righteous judgments about others can provide needed guidance for them and, in some cases, protection for us and our families. We should approach any such judgment with care and compassion. As much as we can, we should judge people's situations rather than judging the people themselves. Whenever possible, we should refrain from making judgments until we have an adequate knowledge of the facts. And we should always be sensitive to the Holy Spirit, who can guide our decisions. Alma's counsel to his son Corianton is a helpful reminder: “See that you are merciful unto your brethren; deal justly, judge righteously, and do good continually” (Alma 41:14)."

I am teaching my kids to use righteous judgement. They are, thus far, avoiding many of my mistakes. Lesson learned, lesson taught.

That, I really believe, is what Jesus did. Loving someone doesn't mean going along with whatever they want.

When Jesus "hung out" with sinners, it was sinners who wanted to be saints, but recognized their sins. He didn't hang out with those who gloried in their sin or had no intention of listening and learning from him. From what I read, Jesus had three main responses: answer the sincere seeker; answer the wicked, if the righteous might hear and learn from it; remain silent if only among the wicked and no change would come from contending with them.
Thank you, Michelle. That was a great post.

In some languages, there will be more than one word for a single word in English and vice versa. I believe that the word "judge" should have two different words for it, one to depict condemnation and one to depict making sensible choices. That would clear up a lot of confusion. Unfortunately, in English we only have one and so we need to learn to "judge" between the different meanings of the word. ;)
Last edited by Meili on Wed May 24, 2017 6:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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