Sealed portion of the plates

[jwharton]

FFA, this is the bottom line with you.
You are prejudiced against me with the assumption that your interpretation of things is all that there is.
Perhaps a message from the Book of Mormon will be a good reminder for you to chill out your "I know better than you" complex.

Jacob 4
8 Behold, great and marvelous are the works of the Lord. How unsearchable are the depths of the mysteries of him; and it is impossible that man should find out all his ways. And no man knoweth of his ways save it be revealed unto him; wherefore, brethren, despise not the revelations of God.

In short, you condemn that which you don't understand based on the assumption that there are no additional depths available to go.

[freedomforall]

FFA, this is the bottom line with you. In your mind, remember? Let's keep the facts straight, shall we?
You are prejudiced against me with the assumption that your interpretation of things is all that there is. WRONG! It is because of a special promise given me in my PB. I told you this already, but I guess you skipped over that.
Perhaps a message from the Book of Mormon will be a good reminder for you to chill out your "I know better than you" complex. Have you read your own posts lately?

Jacob 4
8 Behold, great and marvelous are the works of the Lord. How unsearchable are the depths of the mysteries of him; and it is impossible that man should find out all his ways. And no man knoweth of his ways save it be revealed unto him; wherefore, brethren, despise not the revelations of God.

I can't argue that point.
In short, you condemn that which you don't understand based on the assumption that there are no additional depths available to go. Wrong, again. I simply make sure which path is the right one before making the leap. The path I'm on suits me fine, and I have in fact learned some mysteries I don't care to share. I've seen miracles that are sacred to me. I have personally experienced the cleansing power of the Atonement. I have felt the arms of the Lord's love and the power of the Holy Ghost many times in my life. I have also experienced the horrific buffetings of Satan, so do not pretend to know me or what I think or believe, you may remember this in the future before making rash statements.

Now you're reaching. I have explained my position and purpose several times, so keep coming up with your own viewpoints and accusations while I come up with facts and scriptural proof. I do not have to justify myself for teaching correct doctrine, yet you do because everyone isn't accepting your doctrine and you desire them to understand in order for them to jump ship and get into a canoe. You want them to, but they are not. A few perhaps, but in every crowd there are some that go one way and others going a different way. Lehi and Nephi describe this very thing from their dreams and visions concerning this very matter. I'll give you one bit of understanding I think you'll agree with, okay? You stay on the path you're on, and I'll stay on the path I'm on and we'll both be happy. I took issue with you telling people to run from LDS teachings so adamantly along with bits and pieces of your doctrine infiltrated into other peoples threads.
I know in my heart I can go to God in prayer and ask him to consecrate my performance unto me for my good and the welfare of my soul with no shame, no doubt, and having full confidence that He will because everything I teach comes directly out of scripture. And believe me, you re not the only one that either skips over my posts or ignores the message. That's no skin off my bones because I still presented the word of God. If they don't listen to that, they must not be reading scripture or they don't believe what is written. The scriptures cover this problem as well but that's for another thread.

Are you confident in doing this as stated? I do.

2 Nephi 32:9
9 But behold, I say unto you that ye must pray always, and not faint; that ye must not perform any thing unto the Lord save in the first place ye shall pray unto the Father in the name of Christ, that he will consecrate thy performance unto thee, that thy performance may be for the welfare of thy soul.

Another aspect of our religion to go forward with faith and hope. Faith is not to have a perfect knowledge of things; therefore if ye have faith ye hope for things which are not seen, which are true. It is also the moving cause in all action.

Heb. 11:1
1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the evidence (proof) of things not seen.

Moroni 7:42
42 Wherefore, if a man have faith he must needs have hope; for without faith there cannot be any hope.

Then we must have a deep rooted hope that becomes an anchor to our souls, leading us to all good and a place with God in His Kingdom.

Ether 12:4
4 Wherefore, whoso believeth in God might with surety hope for a better world, yea, even a place at the right hand of God, which hope cometh of faith, maketh an anchor to the souls of men, which would make them sure and steadfast, always abounding in good works, being led to glorify God.

Without faith and hope we cannot be saved.

2 Nephi 9:23
23 And he commandeth all men that they must repent, and be baptized in his name, having perfect faith in the Holy One of Israel, or they cannot be saved in the kingdom of God.

D&C 33:12
12 Behold, verily, verily, I say unto you, this is my gospel; and remember that they shall have faith in me or they can in nowise be saved;

Without faith there cannot be any hope. Moroni 7:42

[freedomforall]

Tell you what, if Neanderthals from centuries ago believed that the earth sucks, and this is debatable, and many, many years later someone announced that the earth does not suck, that it is, in fact, proven to be gravity...which source would you believe? Now some people may think the earth merely sucks, but there are also many people that believe the earth has gravity. So now the proof has been revealed, so people can quit believing the earth sucks, right? There may be a few souls that will cling to the notion the earth sucks because they read someplace that the Neanderthals believed the earth sucks, so it must still suck. They may even go around and raise a fuss over the issue, but they'll still remain in error. Do you see the problem? Does the earth have gravity or does it suck?

[jwharton]

FFA, this is the bottom line with you.

In your mind, remember? Let's keep the facts straight, shall we?

Clarification: This is the bottom line I see in my dealings with you here on LDSFF.

You are prejudiced against me with the assumption that your interpretation of things is all that there is.

WRONG! It is because of a special promise given me in my PB. I told you this already, but I guess you skipped over that.

I do recall you saying what you did about your patriarchal blessing, but I don't ascribe any authority to you on that basis.
If you exhibit a tendency to be prejudiced then I am most definitely going to hold your discernment in question.

Perhaps a message from the Book of Mormon will be a good reminder for you to chill out your "I know better than you" complex.

Have you read your own posts lately?

I have no qualms with you boldly sharing your beliefs and I have no qualms with you laying down criticisms of my beliefs.
This isn't what I am addressing when I mention your "I know better than you" complex. There's more to it than just that.

The difference here is you consistently behave as if you know my own beliefs better than I know my own beliefs.
I try to tell you over and over how you misrepresent what I actually believe yet you just keep right on going.
Not once do I recall you ever acknowledging my attempts to correct or clarify how you misrepresent my actual beliefs.
You just keep right on going completely oblivious to the fact that what you are criticizing isn't even what I actually believe.
Yet, somehow, you think I'm being stubborn and unwilling to accept truth when it is you who fails to respectfully communicate.

Jacob 4
8 Behold, great and marvelous are the works of the Lord. How unsearchable are the depths of the mysteries of him; and it is impossible that man should find out all his ways. And no man knoweth of his ways save it be revealed unto him; wherefore, brethren, despise not the revelations of God.

I can't argue that point.

There is always a new level of depth available to us.
I believe I have been given such and I am simply sharing it.
You act as if such a thing is not possible and operate from that context.
This is why I perceive you as being prejudiced and presumptuous.

In short, you condemn that which you don't understand based on the assumption that there are no additional depths available to go.

Wrong, again. I simply make sure which path is the right one before making the leap.

Actually, if you sincerely take some time and consider what I have said here carefully, you will see I have described your manner.
If you were really making sure then you would be far more conscientious to reserve judgment until you actually understood me.
You do not do this and therefore it is a very simple matter to know that your manner of judging is nothing more than pre-judging.
You want to just throw me in with the same stereotypes you are already familiar with assuming that's where I exclusively belong.

The path I'm on suits me fine, and I have in fact learned some mysteries I don't care to share.

That is fine and it certainly is within your prerogative to share or not share whatever you please.
However, you also seem to fancy yourself as some kind of authority on what I should be fine with and what I should and shouldn't share.
I welcome you sharing your concerns with me but I don't welcome baseless slur and accusation you do not follow through with evidence for.
So, there's a line you cross that you really should pay much closer attention to.

I've seen miracles that are sacred to me. I have personally experienced the cleansing power of the Atonement. I have felt the arms of the Lord's love and the power of the Holy Ghost many times in my life. I have also experienced the horrific buffetings of Satan, so do not pretend to know me or what I think or believe, you may remember this in the future before making rash statements.

I have made no assessments about you beyond my direct first-hand experience with you here in these forums.
I simply take your words here at face value and I refrain from making any assumptions about you personally.
You perpetually misrepresent what I actually believe and condemn my beliefs based upon those false representations.
I have been willing to patiently bear with you and to try to clarify to you what my beliefs actually are but you are immovable.
So, we are now in a place where you rigidly keep me in the stereotype you want to keep me in.
These are indeed accusations of you on my part and I am prepared to back them up with evidence.

What I would most prefer is if you just actually had a real dialog where there is some basic communication integrity.
Then, when you do make criticisms, they will actually be relevant to what I believe instead of some stereotype straw-man argument.

Now you're reaching. I have explained my position and purpose several times, so keep coming up with your own viewpoints and accusations while I come up with facts and scriptural proof. I do not have to justify myself for teaching correct doctrine, yet you do because everyone isn't accepting your doctrine and you desire them to understand in order for them to jump ship and get into a canoe. You want them to, but they are not. A few perhaps, but in every crowd there are some that go one way and others going a different way.

Look at all of the personal accusations you are making of me here.
I am simply sharing my personal beliefs and you are doing everything in your power to personally smear me.
My doctrine is very simple.
It is to have eyes wide open to the degree to which things are polluted and out of order.
But, in spite of this, it is crucially important that we remain loyal to the Priesthood oath and covenants and our covenants as members of the Church.
I have no aspirations whatever for anyone to treat their memberships in these bodies carelessly or trivially.
I always advocate giving our officers the due respect that they deserve in their capacities.
But, I also clearly state that it is the office that is more important than the person in the office.
I advocate learning and understanding the Father's Celestial Order and to ultimately be satisfied with nothing less.
Although, in the meantime, while we are still under condemnation and under Telestial Law to patiently bear with it.
I do not promote for anyone to do anything else other than continue to be a faithful, forgiving and patient Saint.
I am someone who bears witness that a major house cleaning is coming so that we can indeed be redeemed and exalted.
I want us to be ready for when the Father comes in glory and dwells among us in the flesh.
In short, my doctrine testifies of Christ and of being faithful to our covenants with Him.
I challenge you to find anything I've said that goes contrary to what I assert here.

Lehi and Nephi describe this very thing from their dreams and visions concerning this very matter. I'll give you one bit of understanding I think you'll agree with, okay? You stay on the path you're on, and I'll stay on the path I'm on and we'll both be happy. I took issue with you telling people to run from LDS teachings so adamantly along with bits and pieces of your doctrine infiltrated into other peoples threads.
I know in my heart I can go to God in prayer and ask him to consecrate my performance unto me for my good and the welfare of my soul with no shame, no doubt, and having full confidence that He will because everything I teach comes directly out of scripture. And believe me, you re not the only one that either skips over my posts or ignores the message. That's no skin off my bones because I still presented the word of God. If they don't listen to that, they must not be reading scripture or they don't believe what is written. The scriptures cover this problem as well but that's for another thread.

Are you confident in doing this as stated? I do.

2 Nephi 32:9
9 But behold, I say unto you that ye must pray always, and not faint; that ye must not perform any thing unto the Lord save in the first place ye shall pray unto the Father in the name of Christ, that he will consecrate thy performance unto thee, that thy performance may be for the welfare of thy soul.

Another aspect of our religion to go forward with faith and hope. Faith is not to have a perfect knowledge of things; therefore if ye have faith ye hope for things which are not seen, which are true. It is also the moving cause in all action.

Heb. 11:1
1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the evidence (proof) of things not seen.

Moroni 7:42
42 Wherefore, if a man have faith he must needs have hope; for without faith there cannot be any hope.

Then we must have a deep rooted hope that becomes an anchor to our souls, leading us to all good and a place with God in His Kingdom.

Ether 12:4
4 Wherefore, whoso believeth in God might with surety hope for a better world, yea, even a place at the right hand of God, which hope cometh of faith, maketh an anchor to the souls of men, which would make them sure and steadfast, always abounding in good works, being led to glorify God.

Without faith and hope we cannot be saved.

2 Nephi 9:23
23 And he commandeth all men that they must repent, and be baptized in his name, having perfect faith in the Holy One of Israel, or they cannot be saved in the kingdom of God.

D&C 33:12
12 Behold, verily, verily, I say unto you, this is my gospel; and remember that they shall have faith in me or they can in nowise be saved;

Without faith there cannot be any hope. Moroni 7:42

What would actually be refreshing for a change is if you accepted the possibility that there are levels of depth you may not as of yet be aware of.
There very well could be people out there who have things of value that you might want to give some humble and sincere consideration to.
And, if you don't feel up to doing so, then you probably should also refrain from trying to be a guard dog and chew their leg off.

I'm fine if you want to be a guard dog, but if that's what you feel you must do, please do it in a respectful manner that demonstrates that you employ all of the basic skills and tools of judging righteous judgment.

Rule number 1 is to obtain understanding before you render final judgment.

And, when things are more delicate in nature, you may want to ask questions with the intent to clarify rather than to condemn.

[jwharton]

Tell you what, if Neanderthals from centuries ago believed that the earth sucks, and this is debatable, and many, many years later someone announced that the earth does not suck, that it is, in fact, proven to be gravity...which source would you believe? Now some people may think the earth merely sucks, but there are also many people that believe the earth has gravity. So now the proof has been revealed, so people can quit believing the earth sucks, right? There may be a few souls that will cling to the notion the earth sucks because they read someplace that the Neanderthals believed the earth sucks, so it must still suck. They may even go around and raise a fuss over the issue, but they'll still remain in error. Do you see the problem? Does the earth have gravity or does it suck?

That's a cute little analogy, but do you realize who you are aligning with the Neanderthals?

In your little analogy, you are taking, for example, the early endowment as the Neanderthal position.
You are calling the doctrines of Joseph Smith Jr. and Brigham Young as being Neanderthals compared to our new doctrines of today.

The problem with your analogy is this.

Joseph Smith Jr. and Brigham Young were doing everything in their power, at great sacrifice, to live the "former commandments" that the rest of the saints were having so much trouble with and which brought the church under condemnation for failing to do so. Joseph and Brigham weren't personally under this condemnation, but the church as a whole was. But, because of their diligence to keep the commandments of the Father that pertain to His Celestial Order, they continued to receive oracles that touched on the Father's Celestial Plan. They were living the higher laws and they were receiving the highest level of ministration directly from the Lord. And, there is so much more they wished they could have taught the Saints but the Saint's minds were darkened because of unbelief and they would fly to pieces when they would try and share the deeper doctrines of the Father.

Now, the people in general have not remedied the very things that had them put under condemnation. We have continued under condemnation for over 150 years since this time and we no longer qualify for the Celestial Level ministrations but are now only the recipients of Telestial ministration via the Holy Ghost. This is why we no longer receive "thus saith the Lord" oracles that address things that pertain to the Celestial Order. Now we have little footnotes that explain how matters of Celestial Law have been purged from our lesson materials. We don't talk about the provisions of plural marriage and the United Order and the political Kingdom and so many other things that are part of the Celestial Patriarchal Order of the Father's Plan. All of this is being replaced with more modern progressive substitutes.

I'm willing to accept that the world had us over a barrel and that they indeed could have destroyed us if we didn't capitulate to the world's demands. This wasn't a step in progress. This was our prolonged condemnation and refusal to repent catching up to us. Now, somehow, the many things the world has demanded of us to capitulate on have become the definition of what is pleasing to God. Now, people who look at these higher laws and ordinances with dignity and longing to get back to the "former commandments" in order to get out from under condemnation are looked at with contempt. It has gotten so bad that it is actually now an insult to call someone a "fundamentalist". It's true those who are the FLDS are like a dead and decomposing body, but this is because they were spiritually murdered for being adamant to hold true to the Father's Plan.

What you liken to the Neanderthal I liken to the Father's Plan.
What you liken to modern enlightened thought I liken to Lucifer's counterfeit.

The Sealed Portion will eventually come fourth to expose Lucifer's usurpation and when it does it will be "bad news" for all who are out of order. The mainstream "tares" will feel judged by it and so they will resist it. The "FLDS" will not want to come back into a cleansed and redeemed church and so they will likely fight it. They don't see themselves as a dead body that refuses burial. Those who have followed after the likes of Denver Snuffer won't want to admit they shouldn't have ever left the church or become indifferent to its organization. They will reject it as well.

Only the penitent and the pure in heart will perceive the goodness of its message and be accepting of its implied chastisements.
The Sealed Portion will only be received well by those who know all is far from well and who are humbly and sincerely looking for the further light and knowledge that the Father has promised to send. They will be those who are sincerely longing for Zion's redemption and to flee from Babylon. There are only very few Saints I have met who seem to be seeking this with purity of heart.

[freedomforall]

Tell you what, if Neanderthals from centuries ago believed that the earth sucks, and this is debatable, and many, many years later someone announced that the earth does not suck, that it is, in fact, proven to be gravity...which source would you believe? Now some people may think the earth merely sucks, but there are also many people that believe the earth has gravity. So now the proof has been revealed, so people can quit believing the earth sucks, right? There may be a few souls that will cling to the notion the earth sucks because they read someplace that the Neanderthals believed the earth sucks, so it must still suck. They may even go around and raise a fuss over the issue, but they'll still remain in error. Do you see the problem? Does the earth have gravity or does it suck?

That's a cute little analogy, but do you realize who you are aligning with the Neanderthals?

In your little analogy, you are taking, for example, the early endowment as the Neanderthal position.
You are calling the doctrines of Joseph Smith Jr. and Brigham Young as being Neanderthals compared to our new doctrines of today.

The problem with your analogy is this.

Joseph Smith Jr. and Brigham Young were doing everything in their power, at great sacrifice, to live the "former commandments" that the rest of the saints were having so much trouble with and which brought the church under condemnation for failing to do so. Joseph and Brigham weren't personally under this condemnation, but the church as a whole was. But, because of their diligence to keep the commandments of the Father that pertain to His Celestial Order, they continued to receive oracles that touched on the Father's Celestial Plan. They were living the higher laws and they were receiving the highest level of ministration directly from the Lord. And, there is so much more they wished they could have taught the Saints but the Saint's minds were darkened because of unbelief and they would fly to pieces when they would try and share the deeper doctrines of the Father.

Now, the people in general have not remedied the very things that had them put under condemnation. We have continued under condemnation for over 150 years since this time and we no longer qualify for the Celestial Level ministrations but are now only the recipients of Telestial ministration via the Holy Ghost. This is why we no longer receive "thus saith the Lord" oracles that address things that pertain to the Celestial Order. Now we have little footnotes that explain how matters of Celestial Law have been purged from our lesson materials. We don't talk about the provisions of plural marriage and the United Order and the political Kingdom and so many other things that are part of the Celestial Patriarchal Order of the Father's Plan. All of this is being replaced with more modern progressive substitutes.

I'm willing to accept that the world had us over a barrel and that they indeed could have destroyed us if we didn't capitulate to the world's demands. This wasn't a step in progress. This was our prolonged condemnation and refusal to repent catching up to us. Now, somehow, the many things the world has demanded of us to capitulate on have become the definition of what is pleasing to God. Now, people who look at these higher laws and ordinances with dignity and longing to get back to the "former commandments" in order to get out from under condemnation are looked at with contempt. It has gotten so bad that it is actually now an insult to call someone a "fundamentalist". It's true those who are the FLDS are like a dead and decomposing body, but this is because they were spiritually murdered for being adamant to hold true to the Father's Plan.

What you liken to the Neanderthal I liken to the Father's Plan.
What you liken to modern enlightened thought I liken to Lucifer's counterfeit.

The Sealed Portion will eventually come fourth to expose Lucifer's usurpation and when it does it will be "bad news" for all who are out of order. The mainstream "tares" will feel judged by it and so they will resist it. The "FLDS" will not want to come back into a cleansed and redeemed church and so they will likely fight it. They don't see themselves as a dead body that refuses burial. Those who have followed after the likes of Denver Snuffer won't want to admit they shouldn't have ever left the church or become indifferent to its organization. They will reject it as well.

Only the penitent and the pure in heart will perceive the goodness of its message and be accepting of its implied chastisements.
The Sealed Portion will only be received well by those who know all is far from well and who are humbly and sincerely looking for the further light and knowledge that the Father has promised to send. They will be those who are sincerely longing for Zion's redemption and to flee from Babylon. There are only very few Saints I have met who seem to be seeking this with purity of heart.

=)) =)) =)) =)) I believe that my analogy of and statements about the way you act are well grounded. You nearly wrote a book trying to vilify my findings and observations and to justify your beliefs. I applaud you for trying so hard. :ymapplause:

[jwharton]

I believe that my analogy of and statements about the way you act are well grounded.

How is it well grounded to call your own foundation Neanderthal?

You nearly wrote a book trying to vilify my findings and observations and to justify your beliefs. I applaud you for trying so hard. :ymapplause:

I write what I do so that my meaning is as explicitly clear as possible.
Unless you actually counter my points, they all remain standing.

I'm beginning to doubt that you actually read what I write.
Did you read it all or did you skim it and ignore most of it?

[freedomforall]

I believe that my analogy of and statements about the way you act are well grounded.

How is it well grounded to call your own foundation Neanderthal? If you read it again, slowly this time, you will see I added the word "IF" in the very first part of the very first sentence, which allowed the reader to know it was only a hypothetical scenario...except you. You took it and ran with it like a little puppy after a toy bone, and chewed it until it was no longer detectable as to what it used to be. Without seeing the word "IF" which proves it was not a true historical event, you thought you had me. Wrong! This says a lot about some people's comprehension skills, doesn't it?

You nearly wrote a book trying to vilify my findings and observations and to justify your beliefs. I applaud you for trying so hard. :ymapplause:

I write what I do so that my meaning is as explicitly clear as possible. Hasn't worked thus far. Oh, well, I guess it's back to the drawing board for you.
Unless you actually counter my points, they all remain standing. What points exactly have you made? I didn't realize you made any points whatsoever except that you keep JS, BY and others words as a backup with no real substance like the scriptures used by these men to make that doctrine more appealing. So far it is based on the arm of flesh, so you have failed miserably in creating a clear foundation. It all rests on what you have come to believe due to their words, having no scriptural proof. Anyone can figure this out. I use scriptures, and I'd like to have enough courtesy shown in order for you to reciprocate in kind. We get lots of talk but no scriptural backup. Sorry, this doctrine you want others to understand just has too many holes in it.

I'm beginning to doubt that you actually read what I write.
Did you read it all or did you skim it and ignore most of it? "IF"

Tell me, how does this scripture fit into your doctrine?

1 Nephi 13:40
40 And the angel spake unto me, saying: These last records, which thou hast seen among the Gentiles, shall establish the truth of the first, which are of the twelve apostles of the Lamb, and shall make known the plain and precious things which have been taken away from them; and shall make known to all kindreds, tongues, and people, that the Lamb of God is the Son of the Eternal Father, and the Savior of the world; and that all men must come unto him, or they cannot be saved.

Now tell me how this fits in. Who is the Father by name in this declaration?:

Mosiah 15:1-5
1 And now Abinadi said unto them: I would that ye should understand that God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people.
2 And because he dwelleth in flesh he shall be called the Son of God, and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son—
3 The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son—
4 And they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth.
5 And thus the flesh becoming subject to the Spirit, or the Son to the Father, being one God, suffereth temptation, and yieldeth not to the temptation, but suffereth himself to be mocked, and scourged, and cast out, and disowned by his people. Who or what is the power of God, v3?

Now, who is the Very Eternal Father?

Alma 11:38,39
38 Now Zeezrom saith again unto him: Is the Son of God the very Eternal Father?
39 And Amulek said unto him: Yea, he is the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth, and all things which in them are; he is the beginning and the end, the first and the last;

Son...of God = Christ in the flesh as stated by Abinidi
Who is the Spirit that dwells in Christ's body?

Why does Christ tell Philip that all he has to do to see the Father is to look at Him (Christ )?

John 14:9,10
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

So who is the Spirit inside Christ of whom calls himself The Father?

Now were right back to Mosiah 15:1-5

Now what does this verse mean?

1Nephi 1:14
14 Behold, I come unto my own, to fulfil all things which I have made known unto the children of men from the foundation of the world, and to do the will, both of the Father and of the Son—of the Father because of me, and of the Son because of my flesh. And behold, the time is at hand, and this night shall the sign be given.

Now we have this one:

D&C 93:4 (4, 14)
4 The Father because he gave me of his fulness, and the Son because I was in the world and made flesh my tabernacle, and dwelt among the sons of men.
14 And thus he was called the Son of God, because he received not of the fulness at the first.

Now explain these:

3 Nephi 11:27
27 And after this manner shall ye baptize in my name; for behold, verily I say unto you, that the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost are one; and I am in the Father, and the Father in me, and the Father and I are one.

14 Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people. Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son. In me shall all mankind have life, and that eternally, even they who shall believe on my name; and they shall become my sons and my daughters.

[freedomforall]

What does all this mean?: Who created/made the world and all things in it?

JST John 1:1–34 (Appendix)

1 In the beginning was the gospel preached through the Son. And the gospel was the word, and the word was with the Son, and the Son was with God, and the Son was of God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made which was made.
4 In him was the gospel, and the gospel was the life, and the life was the light of men;
5 And the light shineth in the world, and the world perceiveth it not.
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 The same came into the world for a witness, to bear witness of the light, to bear record of the gospel through the Son, unto all, that through him men might believe.
8 He was not that light, but came to bear witness of that light,
9 Which was the true light, which lighteth every man who cometh into the world;
10 Even the Son of God. He who was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God; only to them who believe on his name.
13 He was born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14 And the same word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the Only Begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
15 John bear witness of him, and cried, saying, This is he of whom I spake; He who cometh after me, is preferred before me; for he was before me.
16 For in the beginning was the Word, even the Son, who is made flesh, and sent unto us by the will of the Father. And as many as believe on his name shall receive of his fullness. And of his fullness have all we received, even immortality and eternal life, through his grace.
17 For the law was given through Moses, but life and truth came through Jesus Christ.
18 For the law was after a carnal commandment, to the administration of death; but the gospel was after the power of an endless life, through Jesus Christ, the Only Begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father.
19 And no man hath seen God at any time, except he hath borne record of the Son; for except it is through him no man can be saved.
20 And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem, to ask him; Who art thou?
21 And he confessed, and denied not that he was Elias; but confessed, saying; I am not the Christ.
22 And they asked him, saying; How then art thou Elias? And he said, I am not that Elias who was to restore all things. And they asked him, saying, Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No.
23 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? that we may give an answer to them that sent us. What sayest thou of thyself?
24 He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as saith the prophet Esaias.
25 And they who were sent were of the Pharisees.
26 And they asked him, and said unto him; Why baptizest thou then, if thou be not the Christ, nor Elias who was to restore all things, neither that prophet?
27 John answered them, saying; I baptize with water, but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not;
28 He it is of whom I bear record. He is that prophet, even Elias, who, coming after me, is preferred before me, whose shoe’s latchet I am not worthy to unloose, or whose place I am not able to fill; for he shall baptize, not only with water, but with fire, and with the Holy Ghost.
29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and said; Behold the Lamb of God, who taketh away the sin of the world!
30 And John bare record of him unto the people, saying, This is he of whom I said; After me cometh a man who is preferred before me; for he was before me, and I knew him, and that he should be made manifest to Israel; therefore am I come baptizing with water.
31 And John bare record, saying; When he was baptized of me, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.
32 And I knew him; for he who sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me; Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he who baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
33 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.
34 These things were done in Bethabara, beyond Jordan, where John was baptizing.

[freedomforall]

Who is the Son of Man?

Jesus Christ, Son of Man

one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven: Dan. 7:13 . ( Rev. 1:13 ; Rev. 14:14 . )

Son of man hath power on earth: Matt. 9:6 . ( Mark 2:10 ; Luke 5:24 . )
shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come: Matt. 10:23 . ( Matt. 25:13 ; Luke 18:8 ; D&C 58:65 . )
Son of man came eating and drinking: Matt. 11:19 . ( Luke 7:34 . )
Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath: Matt. 12:8 . ( Mark 2:28 ; Luke 6:5 . )
whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: Matt. 12:32 . ( Luke 12:10 . )
shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in … the earth: Matt. 12:40 .
He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man: Matt. 13:37 .
Son of man shall send forth his angels: Matt. 13:41 .
Whom do men say that I the Son of man am: Matt. 16:13 .
Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father: Matt. 16:27 .
not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming: Matt. 16:28 . ( Matt. 24:27, 37, 39 ; Mark 13:26 ; D&C 45:39 ; D&C 61:38 ; D&C 63:53 ; D&C 64:23 ; D&C 68:11 ; D&C 130:14, 17 . )
Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen: Matt. 17:9 . ( Mark 9:9 . )
Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them: Matt. 17:12 . ( Mark 8:31 ; Luke 9:22 . )
Son of man shall be betrayed: Matt. 17:22 . ( Matt. 20:18 ; Matt. 26:2, 24, 45 ; Mark 14:21, 41 ; Luke 22:22, 48 . )
Son of man is come to save that which was lost: Matt. 18:11 . ( Luke 19:10 . )
when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory: Matt. 19:28 .
as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto: Matt. 20:28 . ( Mark 10:45 . )
appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: Matt. 24:30 .
see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven: Matt. 24:30 . ( Mark 13:26 ; Luke 21:27 . )
see the Son of man sitting on the right hand: Matt. 26:64 . ( Mark 14:62 ; Luke 22:69 . )
of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed: Mark 8:38 . ( Luke 9:26 . )
written of the Son of man, that he must suffer: Mark 9:12 .
Son of man is delivered into the hands of men: Mark 9:31 . ( Mark 10:33 ; Luke 9:44 ; Luke 24:7 . )
cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man’s sake: Luke 6:22 .
Son of man is not come to destroy men’s lives: Luke 9:56 .
Son of man hath not where to lay his head: Luke 9:58 .
as Jonas was a sign … so shall also the Son of man be: Luke 11:30 .
him shall the Son of man also confess: Luke 12:8 .
Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not: Luke 12:40 .
ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man: Luke 17:22 .
lightning … so shall also the Son of man be: Luke 17:24 .
days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man: Luke 17:26 .
thus shall it be … when the Son of man is revealed: Luke 17:30 .
all things … concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished: Luke 18:31 .
accounted worthy … to stand before the Son of man: Luke 21:36 .
no man hath ascended up to heaven, but … the Son of man: John 3:13 . ( John 8:28 ; John 12:34 . )
as Moses lifted … so must the Son of man be lifted up: John 3:14 .
execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man: John 5:27 .
everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give: John 6:27 .
Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man: John 6:53 .
if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up: John 6:62 .
hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified: John 12:23 . ( John 13:31 . )
What is … the son of man, that thou visitest him: Heb. 2:6 .
in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man: Rev. 1:13 .

done unto the Son of Man even as they listed: D&C 49:6 .
Son of Man cometh not in the form of a woman: D&C 49:22 .
Son of Man shall come down in heaven, clothed in the brightness of his glory: D&C 65:5 .
those who shall hear the voice of the Son of Man: D&C 76:16 .
build a house … that the Son of Man might have a place to manifest himself: D&C 109:5 .
Son of Man hath descended below them all: D&C 122:8 .
if thou livest … thou shalt see the face of the Son of Man: D&C 130:15

[freedomforall]

Who is Michael?

Michael

Who is like God. Mentioned in Dan. 10:13, 21; 12:1; Jude 1:9; Rev. 12:7. He is called the Archangel. Latter-day revelation informs us that Michael is Adam, the Ancient of Days (Dan. 7), a prince, and the patriarch of the human family (D&C 27:11; 107:53–56; 128:21). See also Adam.

Dan 12:1
1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. (Book of Life)

Jude 1:9
9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

D&C 27:11
11 And also with Michael, or Adam, the father of all, the prince of all, the ancient of days;

Dan. 7:22 (13, 22)
13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

Verse 22 reveals that Michael, the archangel is not the Most High.

Here is a good description of Adam/Michael's role in the scheme of things:

D&C 107:53-56
53 Three years previous to the death of Adam, he called Seth, Enos, Cainan, Mahalaleel, Jared, Enoch, and Methuselah, who were all high priests, with the residue of his posterity who were righteous, into the valley of Adam-ondi-Ahman, and there bestowed upon them his last blessing.
54 And the Lord appeared unto them, and they rose up and blessed Adam, and called him Michael, the prince, the archangel.
55 And the Lord administered comfort unto Adam, and said unto him: I have set thee to be at the head; a multitude of nations shall come of thee, and thou art a prince over them forever.
56 And Adam stood up in the midst of the congregation; and, notwithstanding he was bowed down with age, being full of the Holy Ghost, predicted whatsoever should befall his posterity unto the latest generation.

Adam

The name Adam is given to the first man of the human family on this earth as cited in the account of the Creation in the books of Genesis, Moses, and Abraham and in many instances in the New Testament, Book of Mormon, and Doctrine and Covenants. From these scriptures we learn that Adam is the father and patriarch of the human race on the earth. The aggregate of the scriptures certifies that his transgression in the garden of Eden, although designated as a “fall,” was necessary to the advancement and spiritual progress of humanity on this earth, and Adam rightly should be honored, not denigrated. Adam is the Ancient of Days and is also known as Michael. He is the archangel and will come again to the earth in power and glory as the patriarch of the human family preparatory to the Second Coming of Jesus Christ (Dan. 7:9–14; D&C 116; HC 3:385–87; 4:207–8).

From latter-day revelation we learn that Adam had a pure and perfect language that was both written and spoken (Moses 6:5–6); that he was taught the gospel of Jesus Christ (Moses 6:51–63); that he was baptized in water and received the Holy Ghost (Moses 6:64–68); and that he was visited personally by the Lord (D&C 107:55–56). Other references to Adam include Luke 3:38; Rom. 5:12–21; 1 Cor. 11:9; 15:20–22, 45–49; 1 Tim. 2:13; 2 Ne. 2:20–26; Mosiah 3:11, 16; D&C 29:34–44; 107:41–57; Moses 2–6. See also Eve; Fall of Adam and Eve.

[freedomforall]

Who is it that judges the world?

Dan 7:22
22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom

1 Cor. 6:2
2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

Rev. 20:4
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them (the saints): and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

[jwharton]

I believe that my analogy of and statements about the way you act are well grounded.

How is it well grounded to call your own foundation Neanderthal?

If you read it again, slowly this time, you will see I added the word "IF" in the very first part of the very first sentence, which allowed the reader to know it was only a hypothetical scenario...except you. You took it and ran with it like a little puppy after a toy bone, and chewed it until it was no longer detectable as to what it used to be. Without seeing the word "IF" which proves it was not a true historical event, you thought you had me. Wrong! This says a lot about some people's comprehension skills, doesn't it?

I didn't miss the word "if" and I knew full well you were being hypothetical about the Neanderthals.
I only took issue because our long-standing point of disagreement is the early doctrines vs. the doctrines of today.
And, it is not the least bit unreasonable for me to understand your analogy applied to our disagreement as I did.
If you had something else in mind, how about you pass up the opportunity to desperately try and malign me personally and just say what you mean?
Can you ever get to the point that you just focus on obtaining a higher degree of mutually confirmed clarity? That's all I really hope to have.

You nearly wrote a book trying to vilify my findings and observations and to justify your beliefs. I applaud you for trying so hard. :ymapplause:

I write what I do so that my meaning is as explicitly clear as possible.

Hasn't worked thus far. Oh, well, I guess it's back to the drawing board for you.

You are correct. Trying to ever be clearly understood by you is extremely difficult. It feels very much like you deliberately avoid actually understanding me. You have some other objective in mind that is more important than actually having real communication. Perhaps you can shed some more light on this.

Unless you actually counter my points, they all remain standing. What points exactly have you made? I didn't realize you made any points whatsoever except that you keep JS, BY and others words as a backup with no real substance like the scriptures used by these men to make that doctrine more appealing. So far it is based on the arm of flesh, so you have failed miserably in creating a clear foundation. It all rests on what you have come to believe due to their words, having no scriptural proof. Anyone can figure this out. I use scriptures, and I'd like to have enough courtesy shown in order for you to reciprocate in kind. We get lots of talk but no scriptural backup. Sorry, this doctrine you want others to understand just has too many holes in it.

You ignore the scriptural support I put forward.
For example, you ignore scripture that says the Church is the Bride of Christ.
You ignore scripture that refers to the body of Christ as a body of flesh and bone and you ignore scripture that says the body of Christ is composed of individuals as its members. You ignore how in the latter days there is prophecy that Michael would stand up and experience a time of trouble and have a war in heaven and that his bride, the woman, would flee to the wilderness, and so on. You totally ignore some of the most obvious passages that open the view into looking at the restoration as a new Adam and Eve coming forth to lay the foundation of a new cycle of Creation. You ignore the totally obvious parallel between the endowment narrative and our own narrative. The Saints were placed in the Garden of Eden in Jackson County Missouri and they transgressed and they were driven out. They had a brief layover in Nauvoo where they were clothed in the holy garments prior to being thrust out into the lone and dreary wilderness of the Great Basin. All of this fits perfectly and there is so much more than fits perfectly. And, none of this is anything I have made up. 100% of this is me just saying "Hey look, don't you agree this is an interesting parallel?" It is all there for you to look at for yourself and to work with that new perspective as much as you like. You can either accept that this parallel exists or you can ignore it, but of a certainty I did not make it up. And, I am also saying that I have spent considerable time and effort exploring this and all of the direct ramifications of it and I am saying that in doing so all of the early teachings that Joseph and Brigham attempted to teach the people makes a whole lot more sense when you understand that Adam and Eve are literally here now in the flesh going through all of these latter day fulfillment of prophecy. So far as I am aware, when people were trying to make sense of Brigham's teaching about Adam they did not take into consideration the possibility that he was actually bearing in mind that we literally are the members of Michael-Adam's body of flesh and bone here and now. This gives an entirely new light on things. I am simply pointing this out for others to consider.

I am also of the belief that it aligns with the opening of the 7 seals that are the 7 days of Creation. This is taking the creation account as a blueprint. I have shared this as well. There is a scriptural basis for doing this and it's conclusion in doing so also corroborates Adam being here now in the flesh because this is the very end of the 6th millennia since our creation's beginning and in our Creation's account, or in its blueprint, Adam was scheduled to come in Day 6. That means if a creation account is in fact a blueprint of a creation we should be able to see Adam here now. My hope is to share the means by which people can open the eyes of their understanding and see Adam in the flesh. Upon this basis by knowing our true identity we can then lock in to a new paradigm of scriptural understanding and have our eyes opened up in so many other crucially important ways. The foremost to us right now is to have our eyes opened as to the identity of Lucifer so that his usurpation of the Father's Kingdom can be thrown down and so that the Father will obtain the victory. We also can have our eyes opened to who the Son of Man is who brings the Father to redemption. The Son that is rejected, mocked, ridiculed, etc. I have laid bare a means by which someone can take what we have been given in the restoration and have their eyes opened to just how significant we really are and how significant the things God has commanded us and put us under covenant to accomplish truly is.

Tell me, how does this scripture fit into your doctrine?

1 Nephi 13:40
40 And the angel spake unto me, saying: These last records, which thou hast seen among the Gentiles, shall establish the truth of the first, which are of the twelve apostles of the Lamb, and shall make known the plain and precious things which have been taken away from them; and shall make known to all kindreds, tongues, and people, that the Lamb of God is the Son of the Eternal Father, and the Savior of the world; and that all men must come unto him, or they cannot be saved.

Now tell me how this fits in. Who is the Father by name in this declaration?:

Jehovah is the Son of Man in the beginning. Man is Adam.
Jehovah redeems the Father and they obtain victory over Lucifer.
They enter into Their exaltation together in union and a new Creation is born.
Even though Adam is redeemed by Son of Man, all else remain under the fall.
They remain under the dominion of the adversary as if no redemption had been made.
Therefore, the work of salvation continues on for another eternal round.
Jehovah is the father of Jesus Christ in the meridian of time.
Jesus comes to redeem all mankind who remain under the fall of Adam.
He teaches them to prepare for when the Father's Kingdom comes again.

It is important to recognize that there is a Son in the beginning as well as a Son in the meridian of time.
One needs to learn how to distinguish between the two and the pattern that is similar between the two.

Mosiah 15:1-5
1 And now Abinadi said unto them: I would that ye should understand that God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people.
2 And because he dwelleth in flesh he shall be called the Son of God, and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son—
3 The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son—
4 And they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth.
5 And thus the flesh becoming subject to the Spirit, or the Son to the Father, being one God, suffereth temptation, and yieldeth not to the temptation, but suffereth himself to be mocked, and scourged, and cast out, and disowned by his people. Who or what is the power of God, v3?

Now, who is the Very Eternal Father?

Eloheim is the Eternal Father Abinadi is speaking of here.
The Eloheim of a Creation is the previous Creation's Jehovah and Michael joined as One in exaltation.
This is when the Father and the Son join together and become One, which is the fulfillment of the Atonement.

Alma 11:38,39
38 Now Zeezrom saith again unto him: Is the Son of God the very Eternal Father?
39 And Amulek said unto him: Yea, he is the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth, and all things which in them are; he is the beginning and the end, the first and the last;

Son...of God = Christ in the flesh as stated by Abinidi
Who is the Spirit that dwells in Christ's body?

Why does Christ tell Philip that all he has to do to see the Father is to look at Him (Christ )?

John 14:9,10
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

So who is the Spirit inside Christ of whom calls himself The Father?

The short (over simplified) answer is Jehovah's Spirit is the Spirit that dwells in Christ the Savior's body.
It all has to do with atonement and becoming one in union or becoming "one flesh".
Jesus does pray acknowledging that he and the father are one.
He also prays that his disciples would also become one with him.
And, he prays that it would be in the same manner as he and the father are one.
This means that even though they are one, they are also distinct personages too.
So, you have to take care to sort through the more subtle nuances of the two perspectives.

For example:
Is all you have to do to see me is to look at my wife because my wife an I are one flesh.
My wife could also say "If you have seen me you have also seen my husband".
Covenants bring members together into one unified body of flesh and bone.
Someone could argue that my wife isn't me, but that would only due to their own ignorance.
If they understood the New and Everlasting Covenant and how it works, then they could see it.
But, if they refused to understand the nature of our covenant, they would never see it.
Instead, they would just think my wife and I are crazy to think she is my flesh and bone.

Jesus was trying to get his disciples to open the eyes of their understanding in a new way.
He was trying to get them to understand how the atonement works and how covenants work.

Jehovah is the being who sired Jesus and Jesus shall sire the next creation's Savior as well.
There is a royal lineage of Saviors as you go from eternity to eternity.
Michael was also present as the Holy Ghost to over shadow Mary.
This was so that Jehovah's glory wouldn't consume her.
The siring of the Savior as a whole was accomplished by Eloheim.
This is because both Jehovah and Michael were present.

My sense is that you are not in a position to make full sense of what I am saying.
I just caution you to refrain from despising something that is difficult to put in words.
I am attempting to teach things that words alone will always fall short to convey.
Therefore, please bear with the weakness of the words I am sharing here.

Now were right back to Mosiah 15:1-5

Now what does this verse mean?

1Nephi 1:14
14 Behold, I come unto my own, to fulfil all things which I have made known unto the children of men from the foundation of the world, and to do the will, both of the Father and of the Son—of the Father because of me, and of the Son because of my flesh. And behold, the time is at hand, and this night shall the sign be given.

In order to fully digest this verse you need to also understand its very first sentence in full clarity.
How and in what manner has he made these things known unto the children of men from the "foundation of the world"?
What is the "foundation of the world" and in what manner did the Father and the Son work together then to make these things known?
This happens to be what I am talking about because we are right now laying a new foundation for a new world right now.
I am focusing in on how a person has eyes to see the Father and the Son right now in the flesh.
Wouldn't you agree that we are on the cusp of a new beginning since we are at the current cycle's ending?
Wouldn't you agree it is Michael who comes down first to lay the foundation and that Jehovah comes down to redeem Him?
Don't you agree that Michael-Adam was redeemed within his lifetime and that He, with His Son, became exalted together?
But, despite Their victory, many remained upon the earth who continued in a fallen state that would yet need to be Saved?

There is a much bigger picture here than you seem to be willing to take into consideration.
We are in the Alpha/Omega phase of things and the Father and the Son are here now accomplishing it.
You won't know who the Son of God is if you don't also know who the Father and the Son are in the foundation of the world.
Everything is connected together and all truth is circumscribed into one great whole once you can see it.
And, nobody will ever come to the point of being able to "see" it unless the Holy Spirit quickens their understanding to do so.

Now we have this one:

D&C 93:4 (4, 14)
4 The Father because he gave me of his fulness, and the Son because I was in the world and made flesh my tabernacle, and dwelt among the sons of men.
14 And thus he was called the Son of God, because he received not of the fulness at the first.

This just explains more fully how the atonement between Father and Son is accomplished.
It does not disprove or take away from the understanding I have tried to share with you.

Now explain these:

3 Nephi 11:27
27 And after this manner shall ye baptize in my name; for behold, verily I say unto you, that the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost are one; and I am in the Father, and the Father in me, and the Father and I are one.

14 Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people. Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son. In me shall all mankind have life, and that eternally, even they who shall believe on my name; and they shall become my sons and my daughters.

Again, this brings in the necessity of understanding how the Father and the Son become one at the time when the foundation of the world is being prepared. So far you haven't demonstrated that you understand what transpired in any amount of detail between the Father and the Son in the beginning. Therefore, whatever understanding you build on top of that is going to be without a foundation if you don't understand specifically what that means. (pun intended)

I am attempting to open your eyes to what is happening right now with regard to the Father and the Son during this period of time that They are again laying a new foundation for a new world. Man and Son of Man are here right now in the flesh performing this great work. Lucifer/Cain is also here right now in the flesh as well doing his all to usurp Them and to push aside the Father's Celestial Plan and put his counterfeit plan in its place. But, Son of Man (Jehovah-Seth) shall redeem His Father Man (Michael-Adam) and They shall cast out the Son of the Morning (Lucifer-Cain) usurpation and enter into Their exaltation. All who were spirit sons and daughters of the Father as members of His Body who have fought against the Father and the Son and who are thereby also members of Cain's body of flesh and bone shall go to Perdition. All else who were not at that level of accountability but who rejected the Father and the Son shall remain under the power of the adversary due to remaining under the power of Adam and Eve's fall that they were not redeemed from. Thus, a new cycle begins and a new effort to redeem them begins anew.

[jwharton]

What does all this mean?: Who created/made the world and all things in it?

JST John 1:1–34 (Appendix)

1 In the beginning was the gospel preached through the Son. And the gospel was the word, and the word was with the Son, and the Son was with God, and the Son was of God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made which was made.
4 In him was the gospel, and the gospel was the life, and the life was the light of men;
5 And the light shineth in the world, and the world perceiveth it not.
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 The same came into the world for a witness, to bear witness of the light, to bear record of the gospel through the Son, unto all, that through him men might believe.
8 He was not that light, but came to bear witness of that light,
9 Which was the true light, which lighteth every man who cometh into the world;
10 Even the Son of God. He who was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God; only to them who believe on his name.
13 He was born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14 And the same word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the Only Begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
15 John bear witness of him, and cried, saying, This is he of whom I spake; He who cometh after me, is preferred before me; for he was before me.
16 For in the beginning was the Word, even the Son, who is made flesh, and sent unto us by the will of the Father. And as many as believe on his name shall receive of his fullness. And of his fullness have all we received, even immortality and eternal life, through his grace.
17 For the law was given through Moses, but life and truth came through Jesus Christ.
18 For the law was after a carnal commandment, to the administration of death; but the gospel was after the power of an endless life, through Jesus Christ, the Only Begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father.
19 And no man hath seen God at any time, except he hath borne record of the Son; for except it is through him no man can be saved.
20 And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem, to ask him; Who art thou?
21 And he confessed, and denied not that he was Elias; but confessed, saying; I am not the Christ.
22 And they asked him, saying; How then art thou Elias? And he said, I am not that Elias who was to restore all things. And they asked him, saying, Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No.
23 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? that we may give an answer to them that sent us. What sayest thou of thyself?
24 He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as saith the prophet Esaias.
25 And they who were sent were of the Pharisees.
26 And they asked him, and said unto him; Why baptizest thou then, if thou be not the Christ, nor Elias who was to restore all things, neither that prophet?
27 John answered them, saying; I baptize with water, but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not;
28 He it is of whom I bear record. He is that prophet, even Elias, who, coming after me, is preferred before me, whose shoe’s latchet I am not worthy to unloose, or whose place I am not able to fill; for he shall baptize, not only with water, but with fire, and with the Holy Ghost.
29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and said; Behold the Lamb of God, who taketh away the sin of the world!
30 And John bare record of him unto the people, saying, This is he of whom I said; After me cometh a man who is preferred before me; for he was before me, and I knew him, and that he should be made manifest to Israel; therefore am I come baptizing with water.
31 And John bare record, saying; When he was baptized of me, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.
32 And I knew him; for he who sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me; Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he who baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
33 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.
34 These things were done in Bethabara, beyond Jordan, where John was baptizing.

The Father and the Son together created/made the world and all things in it.
Joseph Smith Jr. taught that the word "create" is most properly understood as "organize".
All that was created was in fact a labor to organize already existing elements.
And, this process was something performed by the power of the word of God.
This means that it was accomplished by a series of priesthood ordinances.

The conclusion my doctrine points to is that this is the temple ordinances we are doing to organize Adam's eternal family.

The "world" spoken of isn't the physical cosmic elements of actual stars, planets, moons, etc.
We simply borrow semantics from the physical cosmos to describe the spiritual cosmos of Adam's eternal family.

When Adam and Eve (Zion) are redeemed by the Redeemer all of the temple work will be cleansed and set in order.
The Father and the Son will rule and reign during the millennium and perform this great labor to organize (judge) all the souls of mankind.

What happens in the meridian of time is a type and a shadow of what also happens during the Alpha/Omega stage of things.

[jwharton]

Who is the Son of Man?

Jesus Christ, Son of Man

one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven: Dan. 7:13 . ( Rev. 1:13 ; Rev. 14:14 . )

Son of man hath power on earth: Matt. 9:6 . ( Mark 2:10 ; Luke 5:24 . )
shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come: Matt. 10:23 . ( Matt. 25:13 ; Luke 18:8 ; D&C 58:65 . )
Son of man came eating and drinking: Matt. 11:19 . ( Luke 7:34 . )
Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath: Matt. 12:8 . ( Mark 2:28 ; Luke 6:5 . )
whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: Matt. 12:32 . ( Luke 12:10 . )
shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in … the earth: Matt. 12:40 .
He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man: Matt. 13:37 .
Son of man shall send forth his angels: Matt. 13:41 .
Whom do men say that I the Son of man am: Matt. 16:13 .
Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father: Matt. 16:27 .
not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming: Matt. 16:28 . ( Matt. 24:27, 37, 39 ; Mark 13:26 ; D&C 45:39 ; D&C 61:38 ; D&C 63:53 ; D&C 64:23 ; D&C 68:11 ; D&C 130:14, 17 . )
Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen: Matt. 17:9 . ( Mark 9:9 . )
Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them: Matt. 17:12 . ( Mark 8:31 ; Luke 9:22 . )
Son of man shall be betrayed: Matt. 17:22 . ( Matt. 20:18 ; Matt. 26:2, 24, 45 ; Mark 14:21, 41 ; Luke 22:22, 48 . )
Son of man is come to save that which was lost: Matt. 18:11 . ( Luke 19:10 . )
when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory: Matt. 19:28 .
as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto: Matt. 20:28 . ( Mark 10:45 . )
appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: Matt. 24:30 .
see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven: Matt. 24:30 . ( Mark 13:26 ; Luke 21:27 . )
see the Son of man sitting on the right hand: Matt. 26:64 . ( Mark 14:62 ; Luke 22:69 . )
of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed: Mark 8:38 . ( Luke 9:26 . )
written of the Son of man, that he must suffer: Mark 9:12 .
Son of man is delivered into the hands of men: Mark 9:31 . ( Mark 10:33 ; Luke 9:44 ; Luke 24:7 . )
cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man’s sake: Luke 6:22 .
Son of man is not come to destroy men’s lives: Luke 9:56 .
Son of man hath not where to lay his head: Luke 9:58 .
as Jonas was a sign … so shall also the Son of man be: Luke 11:30 .
him shall the Son of man also confess: Luke 12:8 .
Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not: Luke 12:40 .
ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man: Luke 17:22 .
lightning … so shall also the Son of man be: Luke 17:24 .
days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man: Luke 17:26 .
thus shall it be … when the Son of man is revealed: Luke 17:30 .
all things … concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished: Luke 18:31 .
accounted worthy … to stand before the Son of man: Luke 21:36 .
no man hath ascended up to heaven, but … the Son of man: John 3:13 . ( John 8:28 ; John 12:34 . )
as Moses lifted … so must the Son of man be lifted up: John 3:14 .
execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man: John 5:27 .
everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give: John 6:27 .
Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man: John 6:53 .
if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up: John 6:62 .
hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified: John 12:23 . ( John 13:31 . )
What is … the son of man, that thou visitest him: Heb. 2:6 .
in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man: Rev. 1:13 .

done unto the Son of Man even as they listed: D&C 49:6 .
Son of Man cometh not in the form of a woman: D&C 49:22 .
Son of Man shall come down in heaven, clothed in the brightness of his glory: D&C 65:5 .
those who shall hear the voice of the Son of Man: D&C 76:16 .
build a house … that the Son of Man might have a place to manifest himself: D&C 109:5 .
Son of Man hath descended below them all: D&C 122:8 .
if thou livest … thou shalt see the face of the Son of Man: D&C 130:15

There is a definite connection between Jehovah, Son of Man, Son of God and the Savior of the World.
As I have said before, that which happens in the meridian of time is a type and shadow of the alpha/omega phase.
I would have to write a massive tome to try and sort all of these passages out in their subtle nuances.
I'll spare you the effort that I am confident would be a vain attempt because words alone are insufficient.
Just please keep in mind the title Son of Man pertains to Jehovah and it is intended to draw your attention to the beginning.
Many things spoken with regard to Jesus as Son of Man is a reflection of the parallels to what Son of Man does in the beginning.
They are definitely connected and this connection can become very precisely understood by way of the doctrine I am attempting to share.

[jwharton]

Who is Michael?

Michael

Who is like God. Mentioned in Dan. 10:13, 21; 12:1; Jude 1:9; Rev. 12:7. He is called the Archangel. Latter-day revelation informs us that Michael is Adam, the Ancient of Days (Dan. 7), a prince, and the patriarch of the human family (D&C 27:11; 107:53–56; 128:21). See also Adam.

Dan 12:1
1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. (Book of Life)

Jude 1:9
9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

D&C 27:11
11 And also with Michael, or Adam, the father of all, the prince of all, the ancient of days;

Dan. 7:22 (13, 22)
13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

Verse 22 reveals that Michael, the archangel is not the Most High.

Here is a good description of Adam/Michael's role in the scheme of things:

D&C 107:53-56
53 Three years previous to the death of Adam, he called Seth, Enos, Cainan, Mahalaleel, Jared, Enoch, and Methuselah, who were all high priests, with the residue of his posterity who were righteous, into the valley of Adam-ondi-Ahman, and there bestowed upon them his last blessing.
54 And the Lord appeared unto them, and they rose up and blessed Adam, and called him Michael, the prince, the archangel.
55 And the Lord administered comfort unto Adam, and said unto him: I have set thee to be at the head; a multitude of nations shall come of thee, and thou art a prince over them forever.
56 And Adam stood up in the midst of the congregation; and, notwithstanding he was bowed down with age, being full of the Holy Ghost, predicted whatsoever should befall his posterity unto the latest generation.

Adam

The name Adam is given to the first man of the human family on this earth as cited in the account of the Creation in the books of Genesis, Moses, and Abraham and in many instances in the New Testament, Book of Mormon, and Doctrine and Covenants. From these scriptures we learn that Adam is the father and patriarch of the human race on the earth. The aggregate of the scriptures certifies that his transgression in the garden of Eden, although designated as a “fall,” was necessary to the advancement and spiritual progress of humanity on this earth, and Adam rightly should be honored, not denigrated. Adam is the Ancient of Days and is also known as Michael. He is the archangel and will come again to the earth in power and glory as the patriarch of the human family preparatory to the Second Coming of Jesus Christ (Dan. 7:9–14; D&C 116; HC 3:385–87; 4:207–8).

From latter-day revelation we learn that Adam had a pure and perfect language that was both written and spoken (Moses 6:5–6); that he was taught the gospel of Jesus Christ (Moses 6:51–63); that he was baptized in water and received the Holy Ghost (Moses 6:64–68); and that he was visited personally by the Lord (D&C 107:55–56). Other references to Adam include Luke 3:38; Rom. 5:12–21; 1 Cor. 11:9; 15:20–22, 45–49; 1 Tim. 2:13; 2 Ne. 2:20–26; Mosiah 3:11, 16; D&C 29:34–44; 107:41–57; Moses 2–6. See also Eve; Fall of Adam and Eve.

Of course our Adam of 6,000 years ago isn't the Most High.
There were cycles of Creation that preceded this cycle.
So, our Adam had His God and His Redeemer, etc.

But, so far as WE are concerned, Adam is OUR Father and OUR God.
Notice verse 55 where the Lord says "I have set thee to be at the head".
While Adam was Michael as pertaining to the Creation then concluding...
That Adam also became the Eloheim pertaining to the Creation that followed.
It is all a matter of perspective and sorting things out in their proper context.
This can be difficult to do unless you understand the end from the beginning.
Each Creation is its own eternity and has its own definitive context.
But, these cycles also have a significant amount of overlap as well.
This period of overlap is what I call the alhpa/omega phase.

The Michael-Adam of the Creation coming to a close becomes the Eloheim-Adam of the Creation that follows.

When you make reference to Adam as Michael, you are referencing His role at the end times.
When you make reference to Adam as Eloheim, you are referencing His role in the beginning times.

It's just a matter of which Creation you are making reference to Him from.

[freedomforall]

Who is Michael?

Michael

Who is like God. Mentioned in Dan. 10:13, 21; 12:1; Jude 1:9; Rev. 12:7. He is called the Archangel. Latter-day revelation informs us that Michael is Adam, the Ancient of Days (Dan. 7), a prince, and the patriarch of the human family (D&C 27:11; 107:53–56; 128:21). See also Adam.

Dan 12:1
1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. (Book of Life)

Jude 1:9
9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

D&C 27:11
11 And also with Michael, or Adam, the father of all, the prince of all, the ancient of days;

Dan. 7:22 (13, 22)
13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

Verse 22 reveals that Michael, the archangel is not the Most High.

Here is a good description of Adam/Michael's role in the scheme of things:

D&C 107:53-56
53 Three years previous to the death of Adam, he called Seth, Enos, Cainan, Mahalaleel, Jared, Enoch, and Methuselah, who were all high priests, with the residue of his posterity who were righteous, into the valley of Adam-ondi-Ahman, and there bestowed upon them his last blessing.
54 And the Lord appeared unto them, and they rose up and blessed Adam, and called him Michael, the prince, the archangel.
55 And the Lord administered comfort unto Adam, and said unto him: I have set thee to be at the head; a multitude of nations shall come of thee, and thou art a prince over them forever.
56 And Adam stood up in the midst of the congregation; and, notwithstanding he was bowed down with age, being full of the Holy Ghost, predicted whatsoever should befall his posterity unto the latest generation.

Adam

The name Adam is given to the first man of the human family on this earth as cited in the account of the Creation in the books of Genesis, Moses, and Abraham and in many instances in the New Testament, Book of Mormon, and Doctrine and Covenants. From these scriptures we learn that Adam is the father and patriarch of the human race on the earth. The aggregate of the scriptures certifies that his transgression in the garden of Eden, although designated as a “fall,” was necessary to the advancement and spiritual progress of humanity on this earth, and Adam rightly should be honored, not denigrated. Adam is the Ancient of Days and is also known as Michael. He is the archangel and will come again to the earth in power and glory as the patriarch of the human family preparatory to the Second Coming of Jesus Christ (Dan. 7:9–14; D&C 116; HC 3:385–87; 4:207–8).

From latter-day revelation we learn that Adam had a pure and perfect language that was both written and spoken (Moses 6:5–6); that he was taught the gospel of Jesus Christ (Moses 6:51–63); that he was baptized in water and received the Holy Ghost (Moses 6:64–68); and that he was visited personally by the Lord (D&C 107:55–56). Other references to Adam include Luke 3:38; Rom. 5:12–21; 1 Cor. 11:9; 15:20–22, 45–49; 1 Tim. 2:13; 2 Ne. 2:20–26; Mosiah 3:11, 16; D&C 29:34–44; 107:41–57; Moses 2–6. See also Eve; Fall of Adam and Eve.

Of course our Adam of 6,000 years ago isn't the Most High.
There were cycles of Creation that preceded this cycle.
So, our Adam had His God and His Redeemer, etc.

But, so far as WE are concerned, Adam is OUR Father and OUR God. This is your own opinion right? You certainly do not state it as such. As far as we are concerned Adam is not our God, never was, never will. Scriptural proof please.
Notice verse 55 where the Lord says "I have set thee to be at the head". Head of the saints, the boss, the leader.
While Adam was Michael as pertaining to the Creation then concluding...
That Adam also became the Eloheim pertaining to the Creation that followed.
It is all a matter of perspective and sorting things out in their proper context.
This can be difficult to do unless you understand the end from the beginning.
Each Creation is its own eternity and has its own definitive context.
But, these cycles also have a significant amount of overlap as well.
This period of overlap is what I call the alhpa/omega phase. Scriptural proof for all these claims are?

The Michael-Adam of the Creation coming to a close becomes the Eloheim-Adam of the Creation that follows. Proof?

When you make reference to Adam as Michael, you are referencing His role at the end times.
When you make reference to Adam as Eloheim, you are referencing His role in the beginning times. Scriptural sources on this are?

It's just a matter of which Creation you are making reference to Him from. God told Moses that He had created many worlds that are inhabited, but that Moses was only being told him that which pertains to the world Moses was standing on. Moses1:39,40 Each of those other worlds involve a creation period coupled with a probation cycle for spirits to gain a body of their own.

So far, all I have seen is personal opinion, offered with no sources of proof. Scriptures reveal that Adam/Michael was like God, but not God.

D&C 29:26
26 But, behold, verily I say unto you, before the earth shall pass away, Michael, mine archangel, shall sound his trump, and then shall all the dead awake, for their graves shall be opened, and they shall come forth—yea, even all.
27 And the righteous shall be gathered on my right hand unto eternal life; and the wicked on my left hand will I be ashamed to own before the Father; This is sound proof that there is someone higher than Michael calling the shots called Father. Michael is not the Father of our spirits, plain and simple. At least I provide substantial proof in the matter.

Now how are you going to explain away how this scriptures means something else altogether?

Here is Jehovah telling his archangel, Michael, to sound the trumpet so all the dead will rise. Then He proceeds to divide the spirits into two groups, the righteous on His right and the wicked on His left. And only then is The Father mentioned. And it isn't Michael being inferred as Father.

[freedomforall]

Who is the Son of Man?

Jesus Christ, Son of Man

one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven: Dan. 7:13 . ( Rev. 1:13 ; Rev. 14:14 . )

Son of man hath power on earth: Matt. 9:6 . ( Mark 2:10 ; Luke 5:24 . )
shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come: Matt. 10:23 . ( Matt. 25:13 ; Luke 18:8 ; D&C 58:65 . )
Son of man came eating and drinking: Matt. 11:19 . ( Luke 7:34 . )
Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath: Matt. 12:8 . ( Mark 2:28 ; Luke 6:5 . )
whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: Matt. 12:32 . ( Luke 12:10 . )
shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in … the earth: Matt. 12:40 .
He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man: Matt. 13:37 .
Son of man shall send forth his angels: Matt. 13:41 .
Whom do men say that I the Son of man am: Matt. 16:13 .
Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father: Matt. 16:27 .
not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming: Matt. 16:28 . ( Matt. 24:27, 37, 39 ; Mark 13:26 ; D&C 45:39 ; D&C 61:38 ; D&C 63:53 ; D&C 64:23 ; D&C 68:11 ; D&C 130:14, 17 . )
Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen: Matt. 17:9 . ( Mark 9:9 . )
Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them: Matt. 17:12 . ( Mark 8:31 ; Luke 9:22 . )
Son of man shall be betrayed: Matt. 17:22 . ( Matt. 20:18 ; Matt. 26:2, 24, 45 ; Mark 14:21, 41 ; Luke 22:22, 48 . )
Son of man is come to save that which was lost: Matt. 18:11 . ( Luke 19:10 . )
when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory: Matt. 19:28 .
as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto: Matt. 20:28 . ( Mark 10:45 . )
appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: Matt. 24:30 .
see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven: Matt. 24:30 . ( Mark 13:26 ; Luke 21:27 . )
see the Son of man sitting on the right hand: Matt. 26:64 . ( Mark 14:62 ; Luke 22:69 . )
of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed: Mark 8:38 . ( Luke 9:26 . )
written of the Son of man, that he must suffer: Mark 9:12 .
Son of man is delivered into the hands of men: Mark 9:31 . ( Mark 10:33 ; Luke 9:44 ; Luke 24:7 . )
cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man’s sake: Luke 6:22 .
Son of man is not come to destroy men’s lives: Luke 9:56 .
Son of man hath not where to lay his head: Luke 9:58 .
as Jonas was a sign … so shall also the Son of man be: Luke 11:30 .
him shall the Son of man also confess: Luke 12:8 .
Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not: Luke 12:40 .
ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man: Luke 17:22 .
lightning … so shall also the Son of man be: Luke 17:24 .
days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man: Luke 17:26 .
thus shall it be … when the Son of man is revealed: Luke 17:30 .
all things … concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished: Luke 18:31 .
accounted worthy … to stand before the Son of man: Luke 21:36 .
no man hath ascended up to heaven, but … the Son of man: John 3:13 . ( John 8:28 ; John 12:34 . )
as Moses lifted … so must the Son of man be lifted up: John 3:14 .
execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man: John 5:27 .
everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give: John 6:27 .
Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man: John 6:53 .
if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up: John 6:62 .
hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified: John 12:23 . ( John 13:31 . )
What is … the son of man, that thou visitest him: Heb. 2:6 .
in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man: Rev. 1:13 .

done unto the Son of Man even as they listed: D&C 49:6 .
Son of Man cometh not in the form of a woman: D&C 49:22 .
Son of Man shall come down in heaven, clothed in the brightness of his glory: D&C 65:5 .
those who shall hear the voice of the Son of Man: D&C 76:16 .
build a house … that the Son of Man might have a place to manifest himself: D&C 109:5 .
Son of Man hath descended below them all: D&C 122:8 .
if thou livest … thou shalt see the face of the Son of Man: D&C 130:15

There is a definite connection between Jehovah, Son of Man, Son of God and the Savior of the World.
As I have said before, that which happens in the meridian of time is a type and shadow of the alpha/omega phase.
I would have to write a massive tome to try and sort all of these passages out in their subtle nuances.
I'll spare you the effort that I am confident would be a vain attempt because words alone are insufficient.
Just please keep in mind the title Son of Man pertains to Jehovah and it is intended to draw your attention to the beginning. Jehovah and Jesus are one and the same person as I have already shown. Jehovah/First born in Spirit is the Father and Jesus/Flesh/Savior is the Son, this Father and Son as described in Mosiah 15:1-5
Many things spoken with regard to Jesus as Son of Man is a reflection of the parallels to what Son of Man does in the beginning. Jevovah in the flesh is the Son of Man.
They are definitely connected and this connection can become very precisely understood by way of the doctrine I am attempting to share. I;ll describe my doctrine right out of scripture that is shared to everyone if they read it, that is!

Mosiah 15:1-5 says it all. God, Jehovah comes to earth and takes upon Himself a body. The body of flesh and bones is the Savior of the World, even Jehovah/Jesus Christ...the Father and the Son. However, there is a higher God in heaven whose voice was heard saying "this is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." This is the Father of Jehovah, but it is not Michael. Many times in scripture we see the words Most High, but there is never a name attached, only "O Lord God Almighty!" And then in D&C 109 we have people praying to Jehovah. Don't believe it? read the whole section.

[jwharton]

FFA, I showed you in the scriptures you quoted what I was talking about.
At Adam-ondi-Ahman all righteous posterity of Adam was present.
They all acknowledged Him as Michael the archangel, the Ancient of Days.
And, after this acknowledgement was made the Lord then made a pronouncement:
"And the Lord administered comfort unto Adam, and said unto him: I have set thee to be at the head..."

At that time Micheal advanced from being the Michael of the previous Creation who came in its latter days to be at the head of the new Creation as its Eloheim.

Each cycle of Creation has an Adam at its head as its Eloheim who was the previous Creation's Michael.
Each cycle of Creation has an Adam at its end times as its Michael who becomes the Eloheim of the following Creation.

The scriptural proof for there being overlap between the cycles rests upon taking the 7 days of Creation as a blueprint.
If each Day of Creation is a seal or is a millennium as the D&C says, then this is a direct implication of it all.
Michael-Adam comes at the tail end of the 6th Millennium and rules and reigns during the 7th Millennium with His Son, Son of Man.
Simultaneously, there is a new Day 1 that begins because Zion is the Father's Kingdom which is a Celestial Kingdom.

My paradigm rests upon the foundation of whether or not the creation account is actually a coded blueprint of Creation itself or not.
My investigations of it being so has so far proven to be a most revealing and accurate manner to interpret it.
Of course it has very uncomfortable ramifications for just about every category of religious involvement right now,
but, as far as I'm concerned, this is all the more an indication that it is really on to something good.
If it is true then there is massive amounts of repentance for everyone to hustle and get into compliance with.
Its entire context and conclusion is that we have all fallen short in so many ways and it gives clarity as to how.
While this may be a difficult pill to swallow for many, it gives clarity on many things to repent of.
That's a good thing in my view.

[jwharton]

Jehovah and Jesus are one and the same person as I have already shown.
Jehovah/First born in Spirit is the Father and Jesus/Flesh/Savior is the Son, this Father and Son as described in Mosiah 15:1-5

You have ignored the distinctions I made earlier about the nature of flesh and bone bodies.
I'll give you a brief recap. Please make an effort to include this in what I say.

Are my wife and I one and the same individual person? No, we are not.
Are my wife and I "one flesh" in the New and Everlasting Covenant? Yes, we are. We are commanded to be so and we are.
Can my wife say, "If you have seen me you have seen my husband." Yes, she can. And, not because she and I are one and the same person but because we are united in our marriage covenant as a single flesh and bone being composed of two members, she and me. She is me and I am her, insofar as our covenant is concerned. To God we are a single being of flesh and bone. There are many types of flesh and bone beings because there are many covenants that become the basis upon which such are brought to pass.

You are taking what Jesus said to Philip to mean that Jesus is one and the same person as his Father.
But, that isn't exactly what is meant by what Jesus said anymore than my wife saying she is my flesh means she actually is me.

When you consider how flesh and bone bodies actually work through the mechanism of covenants then you can see things clearer.
It is tempting to over simplify things and ignore these fine-grained distinctions I am trying to introduce to you.
But, in doing so, these over simplifications makes the additional depth invisible and indistinguishable.
And, unfortunately, this makes the current presence of the Father and the Son as flesh and bone beings invisible to you.

Jevovah in the flesh is the Son of Man.

Yes, and a flesh and bone being is a covenant body of individuals just as the apostle Paul describes it.
Jesus was a single individual who by passing through the office and responsibility of Savior became a member of Jehovah's body of flesh and bone.
Every cycle of Creation requires a Savior and there is a royal lineage of Saviors who are all members of the flesh and bone body of Jehovah.

Mosiah 15:1-5 says it all. God, Jehovah comes to earth and takes upon Himself a body. The body of flesh and bones is the Savior of the World, even Jehovah/Jesus Christ...the Father and the Son. However, there is a higher God in heaven whose voice was heard saying "this is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." This is the Father of Jehovah, but it is not Michael. Many times in scripture we see the words Most High, but there is never a name attached, only "O Lord God Almighty!" And then in D&C 109 we have people praying to Jehovah. Don't believe it? read the whole section.

I didn't say the higher God in heaven was Michael.
You are who keeps insisting that I'm saying that but I am not saying that.
This higher God in heaven is Eloheim, who was Michael in the previous cycle of Creation.
Michael becomes the Eloheim.

[freedomforall]

What does all this mean?: Who created/made the world and all things in it?

JST John 1:1–34 (Appendix)

1 In the beginning was the gospel preached through the Son. And the gospel was the word, and the word was with the Son, and the Son was with God, and the Son was of God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made which was made.
4 In him was the gospel, and the gospel was the life, and the life was the light of men;
5 And the light shineth in the world, and the world perceiveth it not.
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 The same came into the world for a witness, to bear witness of the light, to bear record of the gospel through the Son, unto all, that through him men might believe.
8 He was not that light, but came to bear witness of that light,
9 Which was the true light, which lighteth every man who cometh into the world;
10 Even the Son of God. He who was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God; only to them who believe on his name.
13 He was born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14 And the same word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the Only Begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
15 John bear witness of him, and cried, saying, This is he of whom I spake; He who cometh after me, is preferred before me; for he was before me.
16 For in the beginning was the Word, even the Son, who is made flesh, and sent unto us by the will of the Father. And as many as believe on his name shall receive of his fullness. And of his fullness have all we received, even immortality and eternal life, through his grace.
17 For the law was given through Moses, but life and truth came through Jesus Christ.
18 For the law was after a carnal commandment, to the administration of death; but the gospel was after the power of an endless life, through Jesus Christ, the Only Begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father.
19 And no man hath seen God at any time, except he hath borne record of the Son; for except it is through him no man can be saved.
20 And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem, to ask him; Who art thou?
21 And he confessed, and denied not that he was Elias; but confessed, saying; I am not the Christ.
22 And they asked him, saying; How then art thou Elias? And he said, I am not that Elias who was to restore all things. And they asked him, saying, Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No.
23 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? that we may give an answer to them that sent us. What sayest thou of thyself?
24 He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as saith the prophet Esaias.
25 And they who were sent were of the Pharisees.
26 And they asked him, and said unto him; Why baptizest thou then, if thou be not the Christ, nor Elias who was to restore all things, neither that prophet?
27 John answered them, saying; I baptize with water, but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not;
28 He it is of whom I bear record. He is that prophet, even Elias, who, coming after me, is preferred before me, whose shoe’s latchet I am not worthy to unloose, or whose place I am not able to fill; for he shall baptize, not only with water, but with fire, and with the Holy Ghost.
29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and said; Behold the Lamb of God, who taketh away the sin of the world!
30 And John bare record of him unto the people, saying, This is he of whom I said; After me cometh a man who is preferred before me; for he was before me, and I knew him, and that he should be made manifest to Israel; therefore am I come baptizing with water.
31 And John bare record, saying; When he was baptized of me, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.
32 And I knew him; for he who sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me; Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he who baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
33 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.
34 These things were done in Bethabara, beyond Jordan, where John was baptizing.

The Father and the Son together created/made the world and all things in it.
Joseph Smith Jr. taught that the word "create" is most properly understood as "organize".
All that was created was in fact a labor to organize already existing elements.
And, this process was something performed by the power of the word of God.
This means that it was accomplished by a series of priesthood ordinances.

The conclusion my doctrine points to is that this is the temple ordinances we are doing to organize Adam's eternal family.

The "world" spoken of isn't the physical cosmic elements of actual stars, planets, moons, etc.
We simply borrow semantics from the physical cosmos to describe the spiritual cosmos of Adam's eternal family.

When Adam and Eve (Zion) are redeemed by the Redeemer all of the temple work will be cleansed and set in order.
The Father and the Son will rule and reign during the millennium and perform this great labor to organize (judge) all the souls of mankind.

What happens in the meridian of time is a type and a shadow of what also happens during the Alpha/Omega stage of things.

I still see a lack of scriptural proof on any of this. You have confirmed to me that it is your doctrine, so in reality there is no scriptural proof. Formed opinions are not proof. "Joseph Smith tried", or "Brigham Young tried" is not proof of anything except that they may have exerted themselves greatly to get people to accept that wild theory. And I add that it was more BY than JS But it was never made part of Canon...and for a good reason...it warps the whole plan of salvation. After people read scriptures over and over again they soon come to realize that a few other people have thrown their own philosophy out there as if to become a founder of a new doctrine because they won't accept teachings from today. This is dangerous ground to tread on. I have read scriptures enough to recognize the falsity of this Adam-God fantasy. I cannot attest for anyone else on this form. Some members of the church have not read the Book of Mormon even once cover to cover. Sad. Some may have read it once or twice, but is that feasting on the word? Not hardly. Then there are those that adopt another doctrine and then to proceed to twist and distort the panoply of scripture to fit that paradigm...eh!...not my way of going things. I want my doctrine to be so real as if I was sitting next to Jesus having Him dictate it. Oh, that's right. I have his teachings and the plan of salvation right in my hands.

Whoever tried to come up with this Adam-God stuff must have put the scriptures down and said to themselves "this can't be right, so I'm going to teach a different slant on this to make it more believable. And I don't care who it was either.

We're supposed to study scripture, feast upon it, not take words of others and run with it? Joseph Smith was only an instrument used to bring forth the word of God. It is the word of God that suits me fine. Any other stuff isn't going to supersede it This is why the JOD is not Canon, those comments are the words of man, not God given. Had they been they'd be in the scriptures along with the what we already have. This, I'm for sure and for certain.

I sense that you are avoiding scripture as much as possible. You have yet to provide scriptural proof of this theory, only what you believe. Well, I believe that pure air is invisible. I believe water is wet. I believe gravity is not suction. I believe that man has created at least one type of an aircraft weighing 970,000 pds that can lift off the ground and fly. I believe man has come up with a jet-powered wing-suit enabling them to fly at high speeds. I believe there are massive ships out on the waters weighing millions of pounds staying afloat. I believe God sits on a throne and Jehovah/Jesus sits on his right hand on his throne. I believe when I die I will be able to meet all the Holy Prophets that I have never had the pleasure of seeing. And many more things as well. But why should I accept the Adam-God doctrine at face value?

[jwharton]

I still see a lack of scriptural proof on any of this.

I don't claim PROOF.
I claim direct support.
There is a difference.

The scriptures are written in such a way that there are several possible meanings available.

You have confirmed to me that it is your doctrine, so in reality there is no scriptural proof.

I said it is a manner of understanding scripture that nobody else I know of currently advocates.
It isn't something I made up that I can take any personal credit for and I've made that clear several times over now.
It is just something sitting in the scriptures waiting for anyone to discover and reach the same conclusions as I have.

Formed opinions are not proof. "Joseph Smith tried", or "Brigham Young tried" is not proof of anything except that they may have exerted themselves greatly to get people to accept that wild theory. And I add that it was more BY than JS But it was never made part of Canon...and for a good reason...it warps the whole plan of salvation.

It was canon under Brigham Young and it was the core of the temple endowment.
And, Brigham Young clearly stated he got all of his doctrine from Joseph Smith Jr.
It took many decades to purge out the deeper doctrines of the Father they attempted to establish.
But, they are still just as loud and proud in the Bible as they ever were, which is where Joseph claimed they could all be taught from.
If you take the Creation account as I said and apply all of the interpretations I have suggested...
you can re-engineer the whole restoration and the Father's Kingdom from the Bible alone.
This is what Joseph Smith Jr. claimed in one of his final sermons and I indeed believe him because I found how it can be done.

After people read scriptures over and over again they soon come to realize that a few other people have thrown their own philosophy out there as if to become a founder of a new doctrine because they won't accept teachings from today. This is dangerous ground to tread on. I have read scriptures enough to recognize the falsity of this Adam-God fantasy.

You have yet to demonstrate you understand it in the way Joseph Smith Jr. and Brigham Young intended for it to be understood.
Yes, many people outright rejected it and many people misunderstood it and made a mess of it, on that we can agree.
But, as of yet, is all it has been officially done is thrown under the bus. Nobody has so far actually made sense of it.
However, I believe I have been enabled to see how it does in fact make sense and I am simply sharing it.

I cannot attest for anyone else on this form. Some members of the church have not read the Book of Mormon even once cover to cover. Sad. Some may have read it once or twice, but is that feasting on the word? Not hardly. Then there are those that adopt another doctrine and then to proceed to twist and distort the panoply of scripture to fit that paradigm...eh!...not my way of going things. I want my doctrine to be so real as if I was sitting next to Jesus having Him dictate it. Oh, that's right. I have his teachings and the plan of salvation right in my hands.

I also have the plan of salvation right in my hands.

Whoever tried to come up with this Adam-God stuff must have put the scriptures down and said to themselves "this can't be right, so I'm going to teach a different slant on this to make it more believable. And I don't care who it was either.

As I said, you have yet to even grasp what its intended meaning is.

We're supposed to study scripture, feast upon it, not take words of others and run with it? Joseph Smith was only an instrument used to bring forth the word of God. It is the word of God that suits me fine. Any other stuff isn't going to supersede it This is why the JOD is not Canon, those comments are the words of man, not God given. Had they been they'd be in the scriptures along with the what we already have. This, I'm for sure and for certain.

While I may not have every last little detail pinned down as precisely as it should be, I am ever so grateful that I didn't so readily throw the early doctrines of the Father under the bus because they enabled me to keep my testimony of the restoration. They have also given me a very high degree of clarity on extremely real spiritual dangers right now that people face. There is an incredible amount of pressure and influence to heap contempt upon the higher Celestial Order and the Father's Plan in favor of the Luciferian counterfeit that has us in league with the world and building up Babylon. I know very precisely what to expect when the time comes for Zion to be cleansed and redeemed and set in order. I understand the basis upon which the Luciferian usurpation will be exposed, cast down and purged. There are many who currently heap mockery and ridicule onto the Son of Man who think they are actually the righteous ones. There is going to be a very major turning of the tables and God has graced me with the light and truth to see it coming rather far in advance. This is a precious blessing to me that I am grateful of. Perhaps there are others who could benefit in a similar manner and if so then the Holy Spirit will give them whatever inspiration they need. I'm also confident I will also incur a substantial amount of the mockery and ridicule that the Son of Man is receiving but that's just how it always goes. I have beneath me the foundation of the Father's Celestial Plan and the doctrines of the Celestial Order that go along with it.

You are happy with the current Telestial Order of things and so I feel no great urgency to convince you otherwise.
I only feel to caution you to be careful in what you determine to condemn because you know not what you are condemning.

I sense that you are avoiding scripture as much as possible.

All of my beliefs are supported directly from scriptures, which scriptures I have shared many times now.
What is obvious to me is you avoid all of the scriptures I have presented that support my beliefs.

You have yet to provide scriptural proof of this theory, only what you believe.

The manner in which holy writ is presented doesn't make concrete proof available.
The language of holy writ is multi-layered and open to being read on different levels.
It is imperative that people have the Holy Spirit accompany them as they read in order to obtain value.
The very fact that you require proof and think that I am actually responsible to prove anything is telling.
I am merely offering a point of view from which if explored a new level of depth can be viewed first-hand.
You don't need me injecting in this or that in order to simply explore this paradigm all by yourself.

Well, I believe that pure air is invisible. I believe water is wet. I believe gravity is not suction. I believe that man has created at least one type of an aircraft weighing 970,000 pds that can lift off the ground and fly. I believe man has come up with a jet-powered wing-suit enabling them to fly at high speeds. I believe there are massive ships out on the waters weighing millions of pounds staying afloat. I believe God sits on a throne and Jehovah/Jesus sits on his right hand on his throne. I believe when I die I will be able to meet all the Holy Prophets that I have never had the pleasure of seeing. And many more things as well. But why should I accept the Adam-God doctrine at face value?

Is all of this overburden (mining term) really necessary?
I've pointed out a vein of high-grade virgin ore and is all you want to do is blah blah blah.

[freedomforall]

Jehovah and Jesus are one and the same person as I have already shown.
Jehovah/First born in Spirit is the Father and Jesus/Flesh/Savior is the Son, this Father and Son as described in Mosiah 15:1-5

You have ignored the distinctions I made earlier about the nature of flesh and bone bodies.
I'll give you a brief recap. Please make an effort to include this in what I say.

Are my wife and I one and the same individual person? No, we are not.
Are my wife and I "one flesh" in the New and Everlasting Covenant? Yes, we are. We are commanded to be so and we are.
Can my wife say, "If you have seen me you have seen my husband." Yes, she can. And, not because she and I are one and the same person but because we are united in our marriage covenant as a single flesh and bone being composed of two members, she and me. She is me and I am her, insofar as our covenant is concerned. To God we are a single being of flesh and bone. There are many types of flesh and bone beings because there are many covenants that become the basis upon which such are brought to pass.

You are taking what Jesus said to Philip to mean that Jesus is one and the same person as his Father.
But, that isn't exactly what is meant by what Jesus said anymore than my wife saying she is my flesh means she actually is me.

When you consider how flesh and bone bodies actually work through the mechanism of covenants then you can see things clearer.
It is tempting to over simplify things and ignore these fine-grained distinctions I am trying to introduce to you.
But, in doing so, these over simplifications makes the additional depth invisible and indistinguishable.
And, unfortunately, this makes the current presence of the Father and the Son as flesh and bone beings invisible to you.

Jevovah in the flesh is the Son of Man.

Yes, and a flesh and bone being is a covenant body of individuals just as the apostle Paul describes it.
Jesus was a single individual who by passing through the office and responsibility of Savior became a member of Jehovah's body of flesh and bone.
Every cycle of Creation requires a Savior and there is a royal lineage of Saviors who are all members of the flesh and bone body of Jehovah.

Mosiah 15:1-5 says it all. God, Jehovah comes to earth and takes upon Himself a body. The body of flesh and bones is the Savior of the World, even Jehovah/Jesus Christ...the Father and the Son. However, there is a higher God in heaven whose voice was heard saying "this is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." This is the Father of Jehovah, but it is not Michael. Many times in scripture we see the words Most High, but there is never a name attached, only "O Lord God Almighty!" And then in D&C 109 we have people praying to Jehovah. Don't believe it? read the whole section.

I didn't say the higher God in heaven was Michael.
You are who keeps insisting that I'm saying that but I am not saying that.
This higher God in heaven is Eloheim, who was Michael in the previous cycle of Creation.
Michael becomes the Eloheim.

I can't keep going round and round over this. You believe what you want. The church says this doctrine is false, I say it is false...scriptures do not corroborate it...so it must be false. God telling Adam that he will be at the head does not mean anything other than Michael being the leader of the saints that go into battle to conquer Satan and his armies...and nothing else. I told you how the cycles work and yet all I get back is more things to reject. I'm not so weak and frail as to accept this stuff which has no real basis. I assume you only want to debate and argue rather than take scripture for what it is and not what some people claim them to be. This is just plain foolishness.
Are you going to become Michael of some future world? You can if you want, but according to scripture and church teachings each male and female that keep the temple covenants and so forth will have their own dominion, principality and worlds, and they will people them as well.
Sorry, it has taken years to learn what I know through prayer, study and pondering, nor did I accept it simply because "the other guy said to" so I'm not interested in changing it now. You see, I do accept orthodox Mormon teachings of the 21st century. My salvation is based on what I have learned from the writings in the Book of Mormon.
None of this Adam-God stuff effects our salvation as long as we keep the commandments, covenants and endure to the end as promised. This other stuff is needless.
I suppose if Brian is okay with this doctrine being promoted, then who am I to say otherwise? I've said my piece and provided scripture after scripture in such a way as to prove my points. Other people here can chose for themselves. Some here have been riveted by it already. So be it. I may as well be talking to a mud covered, brick wall.

[jwharton]

I can't keep going round and round over this. You believe what you want. The church says this doctrine is false, I say it is false...scriptures do not corroborate it...so it must be false.

A more appropriate response given the facts at hand would be along these lines....

I'm sorry I have been assuming things about your beliefs.
I realize now that what you believe isn't what I thought.
However, you have gone somewhere with your beliefs that I choose not to go.
I feel to caution you that I believe you have gone somewhere you shouldn't.
But, since I don't have the patience or the motivation to clearly see things as you do in order to fully judge, I will just reserve any judgment at all.
I sincerely wish you the very best and I will no longer trouble you about your beliefs.

God telling Adam that he will be at the head does not mean anything other than Michael being the leader of the saints that go into battle to conquer Satan and his armies...and nothing else.

Uh, do I need to remind you that Michael-Adam's battle against the adversary was won not too long after he was cast out in the wilderness?
Adam and Eve were redeemed in their lifetime as is taught in the Pearl of Great Price.
So, Adam had already won that fight by the time of Adam-ondi-Ahman, 3 years prior to his passing away.
That's how Adam is able to perform all of the temple work during the Millennium before the adversary is loosed again.

I told you how the cycles work and yet all I get back is more things to reject. I'm not so weak and frail as to accept this stuff which has no real basis. I assume you only want to debate and argue rather than take scripture for what it is and not what some people claim them to be. This is just plain foolishness.

This isn't a debate to me. It is an excellent way for each of us to deepen our understandings.
I do get wary of all of the personal wrangling you seem to want to inject in, but I am simply here to frankly share and to accept anyone's challenges if they feel inclined to offer such.

Are you going to become Michael of some future world?

I already am a member of Michael's body of flesh and bone.
We are in the latter-days when Michael stands up and faces a time of trouble.
This is the body of the Melchizedek Priesthood established through the instrumentality of Joseph Smith Jr.
We have already been through the Garden of Eden in Jackson County Missouri and transgressed and were driven out.
We are currently in the lone and dreary wilderness of the Great Basin and under the buffetings of the adversary.
If I am true and faithful in all things that I have covenanted with the Father to build up His Celestial Kingdom...
I will remain a member of Michael-Adam's body of flesh and bone when Zion is redeemed and attain exaltation in that capacity.
This doesn't mean that I am Michael in and of myself, but it means that I have played my part as a member of His body.
And, for me, I consider this a great honor to be a part of this noble effort.
It gives great purpose to all of the mundane things we are asked to do.

You can if you want, but according to scripture and church teachings each male and female that keep the temple covenants and so forth will have their own dominion, principality and worlds, and they will people them as well.

That is exactly what my wife and I are doing right now by having our posterity sealed to us in the temple.
I don't need a planet of my own in order to accomplish these things.
I just need to have an inheritance with the Father and His Kingdom.
Everything promised in the temple can be fulfilled here and now by those who are faithful.
If your version of the plan of salvation requires you to acquire a habitable planet of your own, you should be feeling pretty frustrated right now.

Sorry, it has taken years to learn what I know through prayer, study and pondering, nor did I accept it simply because "the other guy said to" so I'm not interested in changing it now. You see, I do accept orthodox Mormon teachings of the 21st century. My salvation is based on what I have learned from the writings in the Book of Mormon.

A Christian would use the exact same basis to justify rejecting the Book of Mormon.
Is all I am doing is inviting you to see more of what is available, not take away truths you currently hold.

None of this Adam-God stuff effects our salvation as long as we keep the commandments, covenants and endure to the end as promised. This other stuff is needless.

For just salvation I agree, but in order to be proven true and faithful in all things and to become exalted in the Celestial Kingdom, you must truly know the Father and the Son here and now in the flesh.

I suppose if Brian is okay with this doctrine being promoted, then who am I to say otherwise? I've said my piece and provided scripture after scripture in such a way as to prove my points. Other people here can chose for themselves. Some here have been riveted by it already. So be it. I may as well be talking to a mud covered, brick wall.

Is all you have proven is that you disbelieve the various false interpretations that are out there surrounding the Adam-God teachings of Brigham Young.
But, you have had my agreement upon this particular point all along. I agree there are many false interpretations out there to beware of.

The reason we are going around in circles is because you decline to open your mind to the possibility that there is a way in which these teachings can be understood differently and in such a way that there are no points of disagreement with the standard works. You like the level of depth you are currently at and you have no desire to involve yourself in my exploration of this lost paradigm.

In short, I have invited you to have a look at the scriptures in a new light by means of unsealing a new way of reading them.
You have flat out rejected my invitation and done everything possible to malign me personally to attempt to dissuade others.

[freedomforall]

I still see a lack of scriptural proof on any of this.

I don't claim PROOF.
I claim direct support.
There is a difference.

The scriptures are written in such a way that there are several possible meanings available. WRONG, the scriptures are not for any private interpretation of man.

JST 2 Pet. 1:20 Knowing this first that, no prophecy of the scriptures is given of any private will of man.

There is no way that we can take from scripture different doctrines without, first, either not really understanding them or having not asked God for their correct meaning. Your doing so is a huge red flag from the get-go, and a direct flaw in thinking you can do so. Scripture clearly says that man's own meaning placed on scripture is prohibited, period.

You have confirmed to me that it is your doctrine, so in reality there is no scriptural proof.

I said it is a manner of understanding scripture that nobody else I know of currently advocates. Well, now you know per JST 2 Pet. 1:20
It isn't something I made up that I can take any personal credit for and I've made that clear several times over now.
It is just something sitting in the scriptures waiting for anyone to discover and reach the same conclusions as I have. Oh, really? Only you believe what you have assumed the scriptures say. Then all you have to do is put little bugs in people's ears to confuse them, instead of allowing them to ask God for the correct interpretation per JST 2 Pet. 1:20.

Formed opinions are not proof. "Joseph Smith tried", or "Brigham Young tried" is not proof of anything except that they may have exerted themselves greatly to get people to accept that wild theory. And I add that it was more BY than JS But it was never made part of Canon...and for a good reason...it warps the whole plan of salvation.

It was canon under Brigham Young and it was the core of the temple endowment. Who really cares? Let God handle the differences instead of trying to change all history back to the stone age. God knows how to fix errors, it isn't up to us to do his correcting. And if God had any problem with today's endowment, he would tell the Prophet. It is not your right to promote dead horses in the name of God.
And, Brigham Young clearly stated he got all of his doctrine from Joseph Smith Jr. Again, who cares? What JS taught that is backed by scripture I'll consider, but that which is backed by hearsay is foolishness. And I don't believe JS taught double doctrines and still be considered a prophet.
It took many decades to purge out the deeper doctrines of the Father they attempted to establish. Why is it your concern? Did God tell you to flush out uncanonized doctrine not worth a plug nickle? It's the Prophets job not your's and you then try to get others to buy into it? Come on! What do you take us for? JST 2 Peter 1:20
But, they are still just as loud and proud in the Bible as they ever were, which is where Joseph claimed they could all be taught from. And just where did he say that? What is your source?
If you take the Creation account as I said and apply all of the interpretations I have suggested...
you can re-engineer the whole restoration and the Father's Kingdom from the Bible alone. Maybe, but you have to have the approval of God. Did you do this?
This is what Joseph Smith Jr. claimed in one of his final sermons and I indeed believe him because I found how it can be done. His sermons are not all scripture. They can still be opinions. All prophets are only prophets when speaking as a prophet, and then and only then...it is through the Holy Ghost speaking to them. They are not allowed to make stuff up as they go. This is why the Bible says:
7 Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but (except) he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.

Man does not call the shots, God does...that's what makes the difference. If and when he wants a doctrine out he'll tell a prophet to do it, not a man with an ambition of his own.

After people read scriptures over and over again they soon come to realize that a few other people have thrown their own philosophy out there as if to become a founder of a new doctrine because they won't accept teachings from today. This is dangerous ground to tread on. I have read scriptures enough to recognize the falsity of this Adam-God fantasy.

You have yet to demonstrate you understand it in the way Joseph Smith Jr. and Brigham Young intended for it to be understood. I care less what they think. They are not my idols. Leave it up to God to fix things. Don't you trust that he can do his own work? I have demonstrated that you are on a campaign to change people's paradigms based on hearsay, not fact. This is as plain as stink emanating from a bouquet of raunchy armpits.
Yes, many people outright rejected it and many people misunderstood it and made a mess of it, on that we can agree.
But, as of yet, is all it has been officially done is thrown under the bus. Nobody has so far actually made sense of it. I'll let God deal with it. Not my problem. Not yours either as I explained.
However, I believe I have been enabled to see how it does in fact make sense and I am simply sharing it.

I cannot attest for anyone else on this form. Some members of the church have not read the Book of Mormon even once cover to cover. Sad. Some may have read it once or twice, but is that feasting on the word? Not hardly. Then there are those that adopt another doctrine and then to proceed to twist and distort the panoply of scripture to fit that paradigm...eh!...not my way of going things. I want my doctrine to be so real as if I was sitting next to Jesus having Him dictate it. Oh, that's right. I have his teachings and the plan of salvation right in my hands.

I also have the plan of salvation right in my hands. Who's version?

Whoever tried to come up with this Adam-God stuff must have put the scriptures down and said to themselves "this can't be right, so I'm going to teach a different slant on this to make it more believable. And I don't care who it was either.

As I said, you have yet to even grasp what its intended meaning is. I try to not have a wild imagination either. I say this exact thing about the scriptures to you but it doesn't sink in for some reason. My resolve has more clout in the long run because it isn't based on hearsay. Hearsay seems to be the premise of your whole precept. Scripture does not corroborate that doctrine in the least. You on the other hand, haven't demonstrated that you are willing to come up with all the sources for your doctrine so others an make an intelligent comparison...and we already know that scriptures cannot be interpreted properly without the Holy Ghost. There just plain is not several ways to take scripture, that is a wrong belief, proven by scripture.

We're supposed to study scripture, feast upon it, not take words of others and run with it? Joseph Smith was only an instrument used to bring forth the word of God. It is the word of God that suits me fine. Any other stuff isn't going to supersede it This is why the JOD is not Canon, those comments are the words of man, not God given. Had they been they'd be in the scriptures along with the what we already have. This, I'm for sure and for certain.

While I may not have every last little detail pinned down as precisely as it should be, I am ever so grateful that I didn't so readily throw the early doctrines of the Father under the bus because they enabled me to keep my testimony of the restoration. They have also given me a very high degree of clarity on extremely real spiritual dangers right now that people face. There is an incredible amount of pressure and influence to heap contempt upon the higher Celestial Order and the Father's Plan in favor of the Luciferian counterfeit that has us in league with the world and building up Babylon. I know very precisely what to expect when the time comes for Zion to be cleansed and redeemed and set in order. I understand the basis upon which the Luciferian usurpation will be exposed, cast down and purged. There are many who currently heap mockery and ridicule onto the Son of Man who think they are actually the righteous ones. There is going to be a very major turning of the tables and God has graced me with the light and truth to see it coming rather far in advance. This is a precious blessing to me that I am grateful of. Perhaps there are others who could benefit in a similar manner and if so then the Holy Spirit will give them whatever inspiration they need. I'm also confident I will also incur a substantial amount of the mockery and ridicule that the Son of Man is receiving but that's just how it always goes. I have beneath me the foundation of the Father's Celestial Plan and the doctrines of the Celestial Order that go along with it.

You are happy with the current Telestial Order of things and so I feel no great urgency to convince you otherwise.
I only feel to caution you to be careful in what you determine to condemn because you know not what you are condemning. ^:)^ ^:)^ ^:)^ ^:)^ ^:)^

I sense that you are avoiding scripture as much as possible.

All of my beliefs are supported directly from scriptures, which scriptures I have shared many times now.
What is obvious to me is you avoid all of the scriptures I have presented that support my beliefs. It is not the scriptures I avoid, it is your interpretation of them, you know the various interpretations available according to how far one wants to wrest them? This problem has not sunk into your head either as demonstrated by your own words.

You have yet to provide scriptural proof of this theory, only what you believe.

The manner in which holy writ is presented doesn't make concrete proof available. This says it all. =)) =)) =)) Thank you for proving my point so eloquently. :)) :)) :))
The language of holy writ is multi-layered and open to being read on different levels. Wrong. It is based on interpretation of what God is presenting via his prophets, not man's own theories.
It is imperative that people have the Holy Spirit accompany them as they read in order to obtain value. Value? Truth!
The very fact that you require proof and think that I am actually responsible to prove anything is telling. That we all can tell. You want us to believe you don't you? Are you now the new doctrine guru that everyone is supposed to be riveted to just to appease your self aggrandized ego?
I am merely offering a point of view from which if explored a new level of depth can be viewed first-hand. Yours or the Lord's?
You don't need me injecting in this or that in order to simply explore this paradigm all by yourself. And I just can't in all conscience simply take your word for it either. Something to do with the arm of flesh.

Well, I believe that pure air is invisible. I believe water is wet. I believe gravity is not suction. I believe that man has created at least one type of an aircraft weighing 970,000 pds that can lift off the ground and fly. I believe man has come up with a jet-powered wing-suit enabling them to fly at high speeds. I believe there are massive ships out on the waters weighing millions of pounds staying afloat. I believe God sits on a throne and Jehovah/Jesus sits on his right hand on his throne. I believe when I die I will be able to meet all the Holy Prophets that I have never had the pleasure of seeing. And many more things as well. But why should I accept the Adam-God doctrine at face value?

Is all of this overburden (mining term) really necessary? Yes, it brings everything into focus and clarifies the needless attempt to believe your doctrine that you cannot back up with scripture. It is all clear now that I am right!...not your mind, however, notwithstanding.
I've pointed out a vein of high-grade virgin ore and is all you want to do is blah blah blah.

All I've seen presented is a fictitious moon rock painted with gold.