This seems kinda like a big deal

[mormonfreakout]

It seems a general authority told some missionaries that SLC is baffled that the # baptisms is not rising with surge. Did he slip up saying this?

http://www.nearingkolob.com/general-aut ... s-puzzled/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[BrotherOfMahonri]

It seems a general authority told some missionaries that SLC is baffled that the # baptisms is not rising with surge. Did he slip up saying this?

http://www.nearingkolob.com/general-aut ... s-puzzled/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Goes right along with this:

http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/20 ... a-problem/

[Phoenixstar117]

I've learned that people will find the gospel because they are searching for it, not directly because of a prosolyting effort. All truth seekers will be directed by the spirit to find truth. Whether that is in the gospel or in secular studies. Number of baptisms could be a reflection that even if you increase the missionary force, it won't necessarily change the number of repentent.

[samizdat]

I do know this much: When I was a missionary in Mexico (2005-2007) we had 50,000 baptisms a year in 19 missions. There were an average of 150 missionaries per mission, so you could say at the time we fluctuated between 2500 and 3000 missionaries in the entire country. Anywhere from 16 to 20 baptisms per year per missionary was the average.

Now Mexico in their last Area report for 2014 reported only 30,000 baptisms. That is from 34 missions with an average of anywhere between 200 and 220 missionaries per mission. That's around 7,000 missionaries. Now the average rate of baptisms is 4 or 5 per year per missionary.

In numbers:

2006: around 50,000 baptisms
20 missions (Cuernavaca split from MEX DF SOUTH)
2800 missionaries
18 baptisms per missionary per year
2500 baptisms per mission per year

2014: 30,000 baptisms (source: Area report for 2014 in the goals for the 2015 Mexico Area)
34 missions
7000 missionaries
4.3 baptisms per missionary per year
<900 baptisms per mission per year

Something is DEFINITELY wrong with these statistics.

And yet we have other areas growing very rapidly.

Africa West baptised over 23,000 new converts in 2014, with less than a fourth of the stakes that Mexico possesses, and with 11 active missions (13 before the Ebola outbreak). Those are all new records for the area.

[Lizzy60]

When my brother was struggling on his mission (but still worthy) his mission president considered sending him home. My dad talked to a GA friend of his, and the GA told him, as well as the mission president, that the main purpose in the missionary program was FIRST to convert the missionary, and give him a much better chance of staying active, and SECOND to bring new converts into the church. So, even without an increase in convert baptisms, perhaps the leaders still feel the increased numbers of missionaries is worth the effort and expense.

[samizdat]

When my brother was struggling on his mission (but still worthy) his mission president considered sending him home. My dad talked to a GA friend of his, and the GA told him, as well as the mission president, that the main purpose in the missionary program was FIRST to convert the missionary, and give him a much better chance of staying active, and SECOND to bring new converts into the church. So, even without an increase in convert baptisms, perhaps the leaders still feel the increased numbers of missionaries is worth the effort and expense.

That would destroy the purpose of PMG (Preach My Gospel) and the stress that the leaders put on training the young men long before their missions even begin.

This could have been true 10 years ago but not so true today considering the current teachings based off of Preach My Gospel.

Now there are parents that send their children off on missions with the hopes of reforming them. I know one personally, he's back from the mission now...and hasn't changed much. Only difference, now he's the counselor in EQ that took my place. Oh well.

[Lizzy60]

Yes, this was more than 20 years ago.

However, I believe that retention and stronger testimonies are goals the missionary department has for the missionaries, as well as greater gospel knowledge before they serve a mission.

My brother was not sent out to be "reformed." He was just constantly cold, hungry, and struggling with the language. He settled in and served a very successful mission. (Japan)

[mes5464]

We have been told that the day will come that the Gentiles will reject the gospel. That day is here.

10 And thus commandeth the Father that I should say unto you: At that day when the Gentiles shall sin against my gospel, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, and shall be lifted up in the pride of their hearts above all nations, and above all the people of the whole earth, and shall be filled with all manner of lyings, and of deceits, and of mischiefs, and all manner of hypocrisy, and murders, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, and of secret abominations; and if they shall do all those things, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, behold, saith the Father, I will bring the fulness of my gospel from among them.

[wildad]

We have very low baptism rates in Europe. In my humble opinion it is because the people there are living such unrighteous lives that nothing about religion appeals to them. Perhaps the same is increasingly true about most of the world. Maybe the time of the gentiles is past.

[jwharton]

We have been told that the day will come that the Gentiles will reject the gospel. That day is here.

10 And thus commandeth the Father that I should say unto you: At that day when the Gentiles shall sin against my gospel, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, and shall be lifted up in the pride of their hearts above all nations, and above all the people of the whole earth, and shall be filled with all manner of lyings, and of deceits, and of mischiefs, and all manner of hypocrisy, and murders, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, and of secret abominations; and if they shall do all those things, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, behold, saith the Father, I will bring the fulness of my gospel from among them.

Interesting thing to point out....
This is the Father speaking.
His Gospel pertains to Celestial Law.

We have been progressively distancing from Celestial law for quite some time now haven't we?

It was rejected while Joseph Smith Jr. was alive.
The beginning of the removal process began with the removal of Joseph Smith himself.

[Desert Roses]

We have very low baptism rates in Europe. In my humble opinion it is because the people there are living such unrighteous lives that nothing about religion appeals to them. Perhaps the same is increasingly true about most of the world. Maybe the time of the gentiles is past.

I believe the same is true in the US and Canada. Atheism, while not a religion and of course having no actual statistics of "membership" has been surging in popularity in most of the first world nations. I believe that without a reason for humility such as poverty, it has become very difficult for many to be willing to accept the young, inexperienced missionaries as having anything to share that is of value. Our culture is one of pride and disbelief in anything other than "science" (or the pretense of knowing what science tells us.)

[JohnnyL]

You know, if retention went up, I wouldn't worry that much. ;)

Wonder what the next step will be...

[Sirocco]

We have very low baptism rates in Europe. In my humble opinion it is because the people there are living such unrighteous lives that nothing about religion appeals to them. Perhaps the same is increasingly true about most of the world. Maybe the time of the gentiles is past.

Well, in your own words, (anyone feel free to jump in, I am always curious) tell me why religion ought to appeal to a 20 something, (I'll use me as an example because I am here) a 20 something, single man.
While I believe in something beyond myself, and ponder the wisdom of scripture, I feel religion is too rigid and wants me into a cookie cutter mold.
What intensives or reasons might I have to drop my, more unrighteous living and conform to your ideas?

[David13]

Sirocco
I have no idea. I think I may have lived my adult life according to what you are saying there.
Maybe wisdom comes with age. I don't know.
When I was your age, I could never imagine that I could die. And now I know I will.
I guess also it has to do with how you want to live your life. This concept of agency, or as many say, free will.
A person can live their life as they choose.
So how do you want to live your life?
A good guy, or a bad guy?
A clean life, or not?
There are 20 somethings that life righteous lives. Chaste, clean, etc. I guess it's just the choice they make about who they are, and what they want to be.
One choice that's easy is drugs, alcohol, and cigarettes. The triple combination that can ruin your life.
At my age I've seen quite a few ruined lives, and a lot of people die young.
All I can say is, choose wisely.
dc

[Sirocco]

I've always known I would die... since I was a very small child, but assumed it would be disease or being old, when I was old...
I don't smoke, drink or do drugs.
What I want? Well I guess joy, simple, uncomplicated joy.
Clean how? Because where I agree very much that alcohol is poison, I see no issue with pornography or being chaste.
I just mean that churches, like yours want religion to appeal to people... they have to do more then just say how they're right... people need some intensive, do you see what I mean?

[David13]

Incentive, I think you mean incentive.
There are some real diseases out there today that can be avoided by chastity. And avoiding what can be some mind boggling involvements might give you a lot of incentive in that regard.
But what you want, joy.
They say joy or happiness comes from living good, or well.
But to me I see a pitfall wherein people look for happiness as a goal in and of itself. They say, I just want to be happy.
And what I say is that to be happy you must accomplish your goals. You must set goals and accomplish them. And happiness or joy is a by-product of that process. And not a place to go to.
And if you go thru' life like that with no church at all, more power to you. Nobody twists your arm, nobody says you must join any church.
You can also look around and see a lot of the scriptural quotes and all that right here, there are some posters here real good at that.
But ultimately the decision is yours alone to make, do you join or not? There may be some reward at the end for you.
But if you do join you have to take it on faith alone.
dc

Oh, and it's not my church. Not yet. I'm just on my way in, just joining.

[Sirocco]

Yes, the autocorrect hates me lol
I see what you mean... it's more the idea of a set routine of church, so early (as I prefer to work nights) and a conforming attitude I really don't gel with, it's more often the people that ruin any joy that could be had by a thing like that.
And the LDS church is very much about the people...

[minorityofone]

The truth of history found on the internet causes many to not join the church because they find issues no one would have thought to consider years ago.

[Sirocco]

The truth of history found on the internet causes many to not join the church because they find issues no one would have thought to consider years ago.

History means very little to me, there are churches that have done far worse in that same time frame (say the Catholic church)...
There are things that it teaches which clash with my own beliefs, and while I certainly feel many of its leaders and its scriptures have great wisdom, I won't agree with everything they say.

[minorityofone]

That sounds like a good thing to me!

[WarMonger]

Below stats (source lds.org), we are now on around 88,000 missionaries will get updated stats this weekend on number of convert baptisms.
It is the hastening and final opportunity for the world to repent - prior to the calamities coming in a few months time.

More baptisms in 2002 (283k) with less missionaries (61.6k) than in 2013 (282.9K baptisms 83k missionaries), number of missionaries from 2006 were dropping?

Year; Convert Baptisms No. Missionaries; Bapt. Per Missionary
1986---216210---31803---6.8
1987---227284---34750---6.54
1988---256515---36132---7.1
1989---318940---39739---8.03
1990---330877---43651---7.58
1991---297770---43395---6.86
1992---274477---46025---5.96
1993---304808---48708---6.26
1994---300730---47311---6.36
1995---304330---48631---6.26
1996---321385---52938---6.07
1997---317798---56531---5.62
1998---299134---57853---5.17
1999---306171---58593---5.23
2000---273973---60784---4.51
2001---292612---60850---4.81
2002---283138---61638---4.59
2003---242923---56237---4.32
2004---241239---51067---4.72
2005---243108---52060---4.67
2006---272845---53164---5.13
2007---279218---52686---5.3
2008---265593---52494---5.06
2009---280106---51736---5.41
2010---272814---52225---5.22
2011---281312---55410---5.08
2012---272330---58990---4.62
2013---282945---83035---3.41

[WarMonger]

We have very low baptism rates in Europe. In my humble opinion it is because the people there are living such unrighteous lives that nothing about religion appeals to them. Perhaps the same is increasingly true about most of the world. Maybe the time of the gentiles is past.

Yes, Yes, Yes Mr wild thing, have to agree.... The quality of the missionaries are better with really good material to use and excellent training - I put it down to wickedness of the world.

[Sirocco]

We have very low baptism rates in Europe. In my humble opinion it is because the people there are living such unrighteous lives that nothing about religion appeals to them. Perhaps the same is increasingly true about most of the world. Maybe the time of the gentiles is past.

Yes, Yes, Yes Mr wild thing, have to agree.... The quality of the missionaries are better with really good material to use and excellent training - I put it down to wickedness of the world.

you can only lead a horse to water, you can't force him to drink

[Dannyk]

Interesting to note, in the pictures provided by the newsroom...Elder Perry's name card for the meeting says "President Perry". Hmmm

[David13]

Sirocco
In life you will never find any church, any group, political party, no relationship ever where there is 100% agreement.
Sometimes you just have to, as they say "go along with the flow".
Unless you become one of these old men who's favorite words are, to the wife, "yes, dear".
Then you can have your 100% agreement with whatever she says. "Yes, dear."
dc