A logical explanation of how the atonement works.

[Nataliya]

I haven't read everyone's post yet (some of them are way too long, the Gospel should be simple?).

I absolutely agree with you on that, it should be simple. And it should make a perfect sense, too.

The way the Atonement works is in my mind as follows:

In the beginning Father represents perfect Justice. We are His spiritual children. This posed a dilemma, because all of us (except One) could not live life in perfection, and must be lost.

Why couldn’t we? Is it because there’s someone constantly deceiving us and tricking us into transgressing? Hey, we might be onto something here. Who is the only being that wouldn’t have an adversary to deceive and to trick him if he chose to come to live on the Earth as a man?

But we couldn't progress either.

Christ came in, and offered Father to buy us as His own. This way He owns us instead of Father, and all responsibility of us falls on Him instead of on Father. But because Christ bought us, He Himself could not be bought, and was still Fathers responsibility. This is why Christ absolutely needed to live the perfect life. One sin, and Christ would have not been able to return to Father, and endure His presence, but take all of us down to hell.

This sounds awfully a lot like we are dealing with slaves here. How did these slaves lose their agency at the first place? How much does a soul cost if you can buy and sell it? What do you pay for it with?

But because He lived a perfect life and suffered the Atonement, all glory to the Father, and He finished His work. Now the price was paid in full for us.

How can his suffering pay for us (see the OP)?

And because He bought us, he can also judge us, and cast us away to hell, or reward us with any glory, all according to our actions.

He probably can if he owns us. But unless we haven’t had the agency at the first place, we would be the ones that would have to sell (or to give away) our souls to him.

Because He took al responsibility, Father cannot exact justice on us, because we are no longer Fathers, but we are Christ's. And now after He (Christ) has judged us, He can be our advocate with the father*, and present us spotless before the Father.

*This being a civil court, not a criminal one

See my comments above regarding this sale.

Again, in my view its as simple as that.

Thanks for sharing your view.

[Nataliya]

What I find so vital to understand about the atonement, in regards to Gods justice, is that God would not be enthroned with justice, or mercy, if not he, himselfe, had atoned for the sins of this world. This sacrifice was neccesary so that Christ could obtain the keys over justice and mercy, or, over rightous and just judgement for all mankind.

Alma 42

15 And now, the plan of mercy could not be brought about except an atonement should be made; therefore God himself aatoneth for the sins of the world, to bring about the plan of mercy, to appease the demands of cjustice, that God might be a perfect, just God, and a emerciful God also

Now, the question is, how? How can God atone for the sins of the world, and how can such atonement appease the demands of justice (see my OP)?

[Nataliya]

The essence of the problem is that justice was served already when God the Father delivered a judgement of death for all mankind as a result of the actions in the Garden which warranted death.

What do you mean? What about all other sins that were made since then?

To say it another way, Justice demands a price be paid. How does God the Father get justice to demand mercy as the price so that it fulfills the demands of Justice?

He doesn’t. Once the justice is satisfied by punishment of the guilty one, mercy is extended to those who have repented of their transgressions caused by the guilty one.

And so we are all under a just charge of death unless somehow we can get justice satisfied by granting mercy.

Justice cannot be satisfied by granting mercy. Both, justice and mercy, have to be satisfied. Satisfying only mercy would rob justice.

Of course the obvious answer is we sin however, how does the sin of telling a tiny lie to cover a slight indiscretion and a huge evil such as murdering someone both equal a just rendering of a judgement of death and what is the trigger?

They don’t.

[Nataliya]

I would definitely like to hear more concerning the final thought you have above. However, what you have written throughout is very well done and moves in a very good direction. Still I think we can tighten it up a bit.

Really it translates as specificity. The essence of the problem is that justice was served already when God the Father delivered a judgement of death for all mankind as a result of the actions in the Garden which warranted death. Where the issue comes in is the subsequent desire to override that act of justice with a merciful response without compromising the laws of God the Fathers kingdom which demanded the death penalty in the first place. What could possibly be the impact of eating the fruit that would warrant a death penalty?

Knowing the following:

Mosiah 29:12

12 Now it is better that a man should be judged of God than of man, for the judgments of God are always just, but the judgments of man are not always just.

Ostensibly eating a pomegranate simply does not justly deserve a punishment of death. We know that sin was occurring in the preexistence and it wasn't until a specific action occurs that man's judgment of exile is implemented. We also know that little children are innocent so the atonement enables their return without any potential of a penalty imposed. Of course there is something shielded behind that symbolism that we must understand or we have difficulty understanding what the exact trigger is that permits God the Father to juxtapose the law of justice against the law of mercy.

To say it another way, Justice demands a price be paid. How does God the Father get justice to demand mercy as the price so that it fulfills the demands of Justice?

I am not certain wether I catch excactly what you are after ( due to my english )... But I will simply answer what I think your question is.


I believe that the Father received his justice by and through Jesus Christ. We know that if Christ had not sacrificed himselfe in our behalf, all would be in vain, no matter what we did. All men would be exposed a 100 % to Gods justice

Alma 42:14

14 And thus we see that all mankind were fallen, and they were in the grasp of justice; yea, the justice of God, which consigned them forever to be cut off from his presence.

Now, we know that it was through Christ, or his atonement, that mercy came into the world, and that the purpose and power of Christs mercy was, and is the power that can overpower justice

Alma 34:15-16

15 And thus he shall bring salvation to all those who shall believe on his name; this being the intent of this last sacrifice, to bring about the bowels of mercy, which overpowereth justice, and bringeth about means unto men that they may have faith unto repentance.

16 And thus mercy can satisfy the demands of justice, and encircles them in the arms of safety, while he that exercises no faith unto repentance is exposed to the whole law of the demands of justice; therefore only unto him that has faith unto repentance is brought about the great and eternal plan of eredemption.

To answer your question, the Father obtained justice, or on other words, the demands of justice were satisfied in and through Jesus Christ

Mosiah 15:9

9 Having ascended into heaven, having the bowels of mercy; being filled with compassion towards the children of men; standing betwixt them and justice; having broken the bands of death, taken upon himself their iniquity and their transgressions, having redeemed them, and satisfied the demands of justice.

Christ has set the conditions under which mercy can saisfy the demands of justice. If we do not abide to Christs conditions, we will be exposed to the full justice of the Father, and by that will have to suffer even as Christ has suffered, which caused even him to shrink, and to bleed from every poore.


Mosiah 15:26-27

26 But behold, and fear, and tremble before God, for ye ought to tremble; for the Lord redeemeth none such that rebel against him and die in their sins; yea, even all those that have perished in their sins ever since the world began, that have wilfully rebelled against God, that have known the commandments of God, and would not keep them; these are they that have no part in the first resurrection.

27 Therefore ought ye not to tremble? For salvation cometh to none such; for the Lord hath redeemed none such; yea, neither can the Lord redeem such; for he cannot deny himself; for he cannot deny justice when it has its claim.

The thing I am convinced of is that no matter how good we think we are, we are simply not in the least position to pay any price that could satify the Father. All we can and should do is to live according to Christs conditons, which is faith unto repentance. The price the Father required was so high, that only the sacrifice of a perfect, innocent God was able to satisfy him. There was no other way, nor other name by which the demands of justice could be satisfied.

Whatever this issue is it is something that places us individually under the law of the Garden and demands that each of us warrants consideration of a just rendering of a judgment of death (except children). This is one reason we do not see the explanation for what Adam and Eve specifically did in the garden as the action actually varies from person to person but what the result is of that action regardless of exactly what it is causes the same threshold to be crossed that demands our death. And so we are all under a just charge of death unless somehow we can get justice satisfied by granting mercy. Why? Of course the obvious answer is we sin however, how does the sin of telling a tiny lie to cover a slight indiscretion and a huge evil such as murdering someone both equal a just rendering of a judgement of death and what is the trigger?

This is difficult to put in a question and answer format so if I am not getting there with my questions let me know and I will come at it from a different direction.

Due to time I cant go too much into depth now, but here just one thought. When we look at sins, we like to categorize them into really evil ones, and really tiny ones.. And, of course, there is in deed a difference to them. But one thing we may not always be aware of, is that no matter how tiny my sins are, they still cause a huge gulf between who God is, and between who I am.. Wether I am a murdurer, or wether I just told a little lie, when both sinners are to stand before God, both will be nothing compared to his glory, his perfection and his excalted being. Simply put, all of us are far away from being as Christ is, but only when we actually are as Christ is, can we please the Father... So, who of us cann be called good? Or who of us can be called better than the other?

The real question is how does the Lord view us, and how does he look upon any of our sins? Fact is that if we did not have Christ and the atonement, it wouldnt matter what sin we comitted, for all sin, wether small or great would keep us away from the presence of the Father, and all sin would cause me to die the second death. In the end all sin is rebellion, trangression and war against God, and God cant look at any sin in the least degree of allowance.

Most probably I have not answered your question .. But mayby just try asking again ;)

Even though I disagree with many things mentioned here, I won’t comment on them, since this post is written in response to brlenox’ post, and it doesn’t address the questions posted in the OP.

[Nataliya]

If your looking for a logical explanation on how an innocent person could have paid for all peoples' sins and you will not accept it until you receive a 'logical explanation' which, let's be honest here...anything outside what you have already accepted as your truth is illogical to you. Simply put, you do not accept or believe in the Atonement as it was made by Jesus Christ our Savior. I am only left to feel sorry for you. I too, wish you well on your journey.

Sorry, I must have missed the post that had the logical explanation on how an innocent person could have paid for all peoples' sins if it was already posted here. Do you mind giving me the link? You don’t have to feel sorry for me. I’m more happy now, than I’ve ever been before. See my earlier response:

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=32999&p=474314#p474310" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If this were tue you wouldn't be looking for a logical reason why Christ took upon himself our sins. You would already know and believe why. The purpose has been explained many times and in many ways, yet you still look beyond the mark. I told you there is no logical reason to be found. Love, unconditional love is why Christ did what He did, and it was His Father's will that was being fulfilled. Why? Because of love.

I’m not asking WHY, I’m asking HOW. And the reason why I’m asking it is given in the post linked to the quote above your comment.

Christ said in essence: okay you sinned, now what are you going to do? You will have to pay for your sins, unless, I take upon myself your sins...but, if I do so, you have to live the way I tell you to, or else the sins will come back on your own shoulders. Is it a deal?
Christ lived a sinless life, for if He hadn't we all would be under Satan's rule, even Christ. He therefore is able to take upon Himself our sins by proxy in order to appease the demands of justice, thus allowing mercy to save the sinner. If one person is willing to take another's sins upon himself in order to allow that person to not be taken to hell, then it is logical to assume that this kind of plan is a worthy one...because of love and compassion.

So, we’re back to the question in the OP. HOW is he able “to appease the demands of justice” if he is not guilty of the crime that he’s paying for?

[Nataliya]

THROUGH THE SHEDDING OF AN INNOCENT MAN'S BLOOD, not an animal or fallen angel. Animals, although innocent and sinless, cannot do what humans can do, especially Christ.

HOW do you think an innocent man can do it?

Why do you think the swine ran off and drowned themselves after the evil spirits entered their bodies?

I'm not sure if that's a true story. Why do you think they would do that?

Christ shed his blood in the Garden from every pore because the pain was so intense. Do you think for a moment he enjoyed that? He was determined to do as Father asked him to do and so he completed the task. He was already weak and in torment way before being nailed to a cross. Only until he finished his work did he finally say, "It is finished" and then gave up the ghost and died.
Normally the guards would break leg bones to make it so those on the crosses would die quicker, but Christ died way before that could ever happen.

John 19:36
36 For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.

Ps. 34:20
20 He keepeth all his bones: not one of them is broken.

So, HOW could his suffering satisfy the demands of justice if he was innocent of the crimes that he was being punished for?

[Nataliya]

However, if we study the OT verses and others of the rights of those that have shed innocent blood in that they appeal to a higher authority which is often referenced in the phrasing of why does his blood cry out from the earth we can recognize that innocent blood always appeals to be made whole by crying out to the higher authority. How does justice work in the scenario where the innocent blood that cries out is the innocent blood of Jesus Christ? As well who does Christ's innocent blood cry out to in seeking a redress for the wrongs done?

Innocent blood appeals to the Lord for justice to be served. Justice is served when an offender is punished. Apparently, shedding innocent blood cannot be a good thing. Then how come we are so quick to assent shedding the Lord’s innocent blood? Do we become guilty of shedding innocent blood when we assent unto the Lord’s death?

[Nataliya]

A much better question is: do you want to pay for your own sins? It sounds like you aren't concerned as to what Christ can do. If you do not want his Atoning sacrifice to help you, I'm sure that can become a reality.
It's only logical that if you don't accept what Christ has done, that you must pay for your own sins. Your choice.

It doesn’t matter what each of us want in this case. We all will have to pay for our own sins. But remember, that there is a difference between sins and transgressions (or sins vs. unpardonable sins). The atonement covers only transgressions (not unpardonable sins). It doesn’t cover unpardonable sins.

[freedomforall]

A much better question is: do you want to pay for your own sins? It sounds like you aren't concerned as to what Christ can do. If you do not want his Atoning sacrifice to help you, I'm sure that can become a reality.
It's only logical that if you don't accept what Christ has done, that you must pay for your own sins. Your choice.

It doesn’t matter what each of us want in this case. We all will have to pay for our own sins. But remember, that there is a difference between sins and transgressions (or sins vs. unpardonable sins). The atonement covers only transgressions (not unpardonable sins). It doesn’t cover unpardonable sins.

Just stick with the path your on and in time you will know the answer to your inquiries. God does not force people to accept the Atonement for what it is, nor does He force people into the Celestial kingdom.
Why do you want to know HOW Christ took upon himself our sins? If you would have accepted all the descriptions given here, you would already know how. However, you are beating a dead horse at this point. And I dare say that even if you knew how that that knowledge wouldn't be satisfactory.
Nevertheless, ask yourself this question: How can a parent be so compassionate, loving, patient and long suffering by giving a piece of candy to an unruly child? If you can figure this out then you will come close to understanding HOW the Atonement works.

[brlenox]

The essence of the problem is that justice was served already when God the Father delivered a judgement of death for all mankind as a result of the actions in the Garden which warranted death.

What do you mean? What about all other sins that were made since then?

To say it another way, Justice demands a price be paid. How does God the Father get justice to demand mercy as the price so that it fulfills the demands of Justice?

He doesn’t. Once the justice is satisfied by punishment of the guilty one, mercy is extended to those who have repented of their transgressions caused by the guilty one.

And so we are all under a just charge of death unless somehow we can get justice satisfied by granting mercy.

Justice cannot be satisfied by granting mercy. Both, justice and mercy, have to be satisfied. Satisfying only mercy would rob justice.

Of course the obvious answer is we sin however, how does the sin of telling a tiny lie to cover a slight indiscretion and a huge evil such as murdering someone both equal a just rendering of a judgement of death and what is the trigger?

They don’t.

Nataliya, I've decided that since I do not know your background that I will attempt to be a bit more gentle. However, thus far you have not manifest the capacity to comprehend even a primary level understanding of the atonement, let alone one that has taken me 30 years to grasp...even though it is within reach of the spiritually inclined. I question whether you are even LDS and so on that premise will not attempt to correct or engage you further than this post in this conversation. I often wonder how some folks can develop such singular theories of a concept where they are the only one or one of a very small group who believe that way. Do you really expect that you can interact with a group who has a predominately, radically different perspective than you and profess a concept that completely opposes their most heartfelt testimonies in virtually every way and find much support or receptive spirit amongst them. Does it seem to you that hundreds of years of interpretation of Christ's atonement which even in the diversity of all Christian religions bears degrees of similarity should all be pushed aside for a concept that is a complete anathema to the understanding of Jesus Christ and that somehow you are the chosen one to espouse a radically new interpretation. I can't even guess what's going on in your head that permits this degree of departure.

[JaredAlmond]

"Five minutes of mortality are more precious than all prior eternities of pre-earth life. Only here can you demonstrate the faith from which creation itself was born." (Second Comforter Denver Snuffer page 417)

In case this might also help someone else this is how I see it (logically)

God doesn't care what we do. He cares about who we are. Who we are will determine what we do. The breath of life (Holy) was breathed into us when we became a living soul. Similar to Adam needing to awake and` realize he was Micheal. We need to awake and realize who we are. We need Arise to the true nature of our spirit.

The Past/future doesn't matter.. What matters is being who you are Now--Reality is the present and you constantly are in the present. The present moment allows you to be perfect. Eternity is now! It isn't in a distant land or time. You stand in it as an ocean surrounding you.

Repenting is a by-product of turning and facing God and receiving truth and light. He knows you'll be who you are when you receive truth and light.

The atonement isn't Magic. Sins no longer exist when you are facing God. Once His light enters, darkness isn't just hiding.. it no longer exists. Similar to a bright room--you aren't looking in the corners for where the darkness went. Why does God have so much hope for us?? He knows who you are and that you can be as bright as Him! Of course he doesn't remember our sins, nor will we-- Why think of something that no longer is real!

Stumbling blocks create shadows/block light -- only the Savior can remove by atonement/repenting-facing Him.
We need to recognize and admit to him and ourselves that they are there. Frustration,sadness, depression, anxiety, anger, impatience can be/are blessings because they are the fruits of where stumbling blocks lie. They are reactions to something that we can identify where we need His help. Ask, seek, & knock. He then will do the work- open us up with light and truth endowing mercy and grace.

[freedomforall]

"Five minutes of mortality are more precious than all prior eternities of pre-earth life. Only here can you demonstrate the faith from which creation itself was born." (Second Comforter Denver Snuffer page 417)

In case this might also help someone else this is how I see it (logically)

God doesn't care what we do. He cares about who we are. Who we are will determine what we do. The breath of life (Holy) was breathed into us when we became a living soul. Similar to Adam needing to awake and` realize he was Micheal. We need to awake and realize who we are. We need Arise to the true nature of our spirit.

The Past/future doesn't matter.. What matters is being who you are Now--Reality is the present and you constantly are in the present. The present moment allows you to be perfect. Eternity is now! It isn't in a distant land or time. You stand in it as an ocean surrounding you.

Repenting is a by-product of turning and facing God and receiving truth and light. He knows you'll be who you are when you receive truth and light.

The atonement isn't Magic. Sins no longer exist when you are facing God. Once His light enters, darkness isn't just hiding.. it no longer exists. Similar to a bright room--you aren't looking in the corners for where the darkness went. Why does God have so much hope for us?? He knows who you are and that you can be as bright as Him! Of course he doesn't remember our sins, nor will we-- Why think of something that no longer is real!

Stumbling blocks create shadows/block light -- only the Savior can remove by atonement/repenting-facing Him.
We need to recognize and admit to him and ourselves that they are there. Frustration,sadness, depression, anxiety, anger, impatience can be/are blessings because they are the fruits of where stumbling blocks lie. They are reactions to something that we can identify where we need His help. Ask, seek, & knock. He then will do the work- open us up with light and truth endowing mercy and grace.

Scriptural references please. I must have missed these concepts (in red) when I read them.

The scriptures teach us that:
The moment does not make us sinless unless we repent
We do remember our sins after death, it is the guilt and shame that is gone. God knows all things and so will we including past transgressions/sins. Otherwise we could NOT be a God.
Today is only one moment of eternity; eternity stretches from the now to forever.
Coming to being able to "fill the measure of our creation" requires repentance, learning of Christ and a burning desire to keep the commandments.

[JaredAlmond]

This is how I see the atonement(logically). Maybe it might be of help to someone.

God doesn't care what we do. He cares about who we are. Who we are will determine what we do. The breath of life (Holy) was breathed into us when we became a living soul. Similar to Adam needing to awake and` realize he was Micheal. We need to awake and realize who we are. We need Arise to the true nature of our spirit.

The Past/Future doesn't matter... What matters is being who you are. Reality is the present and you constantly are in the present. The present moment allows you to be perfect. Eternity is now! It isn't in a distant land or time. You stand in it as an ocean surrounding you.

Repenting is a by-product of turning and facing God and receiving truth and light. He knows you'll be who you are when you receive truth and light.

The atonement isn't Magic. Sins no longer exist when you are facing God. Once His light enters, darkness isn't just hiding.. it no longer exists. Similar to a bright room--you aren't looking in the corners for where the darkness went. Why does God have so much hope for us?? He knows who you are and that you can be as bright as Him! Of course he doesn't remember our sins, nor will we-- Why think of something that no longer is real!

Stumbling blocks create shadows/block light -- only the Savior can remove by atonement/repenting-facing Him.
We need to recognize and admit to him and ourselves that they are there. Frustration,sadness, depression, anxiety, anger, impatience can be/are blessings because they are the fruits of where stumbling blocks lie. They are reactions to something that we can identify where we need His help. Ask, seek, & knock. He then will do the work- open us up with light and truth endowing mercy and grace.

[Simon]

I am not certain wether I catch excactly what you are after ( due to my english )... But I will simply answer what I think your question is.


I believe that the Father received his justice by and through Jesus Christ. We know that if Christ had not sacrificed himselfe in our behalf, all would be in vain, no matter what we did. All men would be exposed a 100 % to Gods justice

Alma 42:14

14 And thus we see that all mankind were fallen, and they were in the grasp of justice; yea, the justice of God, which consigned them forever to be cut off from his presence.

Now, we know that it was through Christ, or his atonement, that mercy came into the world, and that the purpose and power of Christs mercy was, and is the power that can overpower justice

Alma 34:15-16

15 And thus he shall bring salvation to all those who shall believe on his name; this being the intent of this last sacrifice, to bring about the bowels of mercy, which overpowereth justice, and bringeth about means unto men that they may have faith unto repentance.

16 And thus mercy can satisfy the demands of justice, and encircles them in the arms of safety, while he that exercises no faith unto repentance is exposed to the whole law of the demands of justice; therefore only unto him that has faith unto repentance is brought about the great and eternal plan of eredemption.

To answer your question, the Father obtained justice, or on other words, the demands of justice were satisfied in and through Jesus Christ

Mosiah 15:9

9 Having ascended into heaven, having the bowels of mercy; being filled with compassion towards the children of men; standing betwixt them and justice; having broken the bands of death, taken upon himself their iniquity and their transgressions, having redeemed them, and satisfied the demands of justice.

Christ has set the conditions under which mercy can saisfy the demands of justice. If we do not abide to Christs conditions, we will be exposed to the full justice of the Father, and by that will have to suffer even as Christ has suffered, which caused even him to shrink, and to bleed from every poore.


Mosiah 15:26-27

26 But behold, and fear, and tremble before God, for ye ought to tremble; for the Lord redeemeth none such that rebel against him and die in their sins; yea, even all those that have perished in their sins ever since the world began, that have wilfully rebelled against God, that have known the commandments of God, and would not keep them; these are they that have no part in the first resurrection.

27 Therefore ought ye not to tremble? For salvation cometh to none such; for the Lord hath redeemed none such; yea, neither can the Lord redeem such; for he cannot deny himself; for he cannot deny justice when it has its claim.

Even though I disagree with many things mentioned here, I won’t comment on them, since this post is written in response to brlenox’ post, and it doesn’t address the questions posted in the OP.

The reason you disagree is that you disagree with the scriptures and how they teach us the true meaning of the atonement. If you doubt all we have received, and consider it corrupted, there is no chance you will ever truely understand the atonement. If we build our religion and truth upon logic alone, we will end up as science, where truths are changed every couple years.

This simply is not how it works.

[freedomforall]

The reason you disagree is that you disagree with the scriptures and how they teach us the true meaning of the atonement. If you doubt all we have received, and consider it corrupted, there is no chance you will ever truely understand the atonement. If we build our religion and truth upon logic alone, we will end up as science, where truths are changed every couple years.

This simply is not how it works.

On one hand, I'm beginning to conclude that cynical people are on this forum for the purpose of stirring contention, wresting of scripture and mocking because of the frequency. There sure has been a lot of these type persons on this forum for quite some time. Some are downright abusive toward the LDS faith, church leadership and the temples in a variety of ways in each case.
On the other hand, it also allows those who are grounded in the gospel to teach and expound their knowledge and beliefs without excuse or apologies, and causes further study of scriptures in order to refresh their memories.
AND, those grounded in the gospel can detect these instigators of contention with hardly any effort. And questions asked sincerely generally don't have a sarcastic overtone, etc.

[Simon]

Mosiah 4

2 And they had viewed themselves in their own bcarnal state, even less than the dust of the earth. And they all cried aloud with one voice, saying: O have mercy, and apply the atoning blood of Christ that we may receive forgiveness of our sins, and our hearts may be epurified; for we believe in Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who fcreated heaven and earth, and all things; who shall come down among the children of men.

3 And it came to pass that after they had spoken these words the Spirit of the Lord came upon them, and they were filled with joy, having received a remission of their sins, and having peace of conscience, because of the exceeding faith which they had in Jesus Christ who should come, according to the dwords which king Benjamin had spoken unto them.

All I can say is: experience the fruits of applying the atonement in your own life, and you know more about it than by logical, or theoretical reasoning.

[Nataliya]

I am just on my mobilephone now, so cant go into depth, but I agree very much with you here.

One of the reasons I disagree with Nataliyas view is because I am convinced that it in deed had to be innocent blood that got shed. Only this innocent blood of Christ satisfied the Father, and allowed Christ to change the means, and gave Christ the power to overpower justice with mercy. His innocent blood being shed satisfies the demands of justice... The justice of the Father has now been changed to the judgement of Christ, who judges with justice and mercy. This is how Christ obtained the keys over death and hell. If Christ had not been innocent, and were it not innocent blood that got shed, he could not have paid the required price, and had no claim on us. And none was innocent except him.

His blood crieth from the ground, and requires us to live up to Christs new conditions, or we become guilty as if we would crucify him anew, and out him to an open shame once again. But it also requires the Father to except Christs new authority over those who are his seed.

Would love to discuss further privately, if you will (;

Simon,

How can shedding innocent blood be a good thing? What kind of God would require shedding innocent blood? Look what the scriptures say about shedding innocent blood:

https://www.lds.org/search?q=shed+innoc ... scriptures" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Also, see one of my previous posts:

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=32999&start=120#p474605" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Nataliya]

I wished you could explain your logic in a manner so that it also makes sense to me, but so far, it doesnt.

I’ll try again to explain, but I don’t want to write a long boring post. So, I’ll make it short.

Does it make sense that an offender must be punished in order to satisfy demands of justice? Do you agree that most of us don’t have full knowledge of the truth of all things at this point, and if so, we don’t have complete understanding of all consequences of choices that we make? Do you agree that Satan is the source of all evil? Do you agree that Satan would be the offender if he manipulated and tricked a person desiring to do good into committing a crime? Does it make sense that Satan would have to be punished for this crime? Do you agree that the demands of justice would be satisfied by punishing Satan for this crime, even if the person that was tricked into committing the crime was pardoned after learning all the truth about it and repenting? Would the demands of mercy be satisfied in that case as well? Also, do you agree that it would be just to punish a person who desired to do evil and was committing crimes intentionally and with full knowledge?

The scriptures, on the other hand, teach te atonement in an manner that makes sense to me, a hundret percent.

So far, I haven’t seen any quotes from the scriptures that would explain how an innocent person, even God, could have paid for the sins of all people. There are many claims, but no explanations.

I am totally with you, and agree that the atonement, at least up to our humancapacity, has to be logic, and we have the right to know and to understand what it is all about.. In fact, I think it is dangerous to teach that we can not undestand it at all...

The best advice I can give to any earnest seeker is to look at the scriptuers, for the they, especially the book of Mormon, do not just teach us much about the atonement that is very logical, but the book of mormon also contains witnesses of how we are truely going to understand the atonement.

Jacob 1:8

8 Wherefore, we would to God that we could persuade all men not to rebel against God, to provoke him to anger, but that all men would believe in Christ, and view his death, and suffer his cross and bear the shame of the world; wherefore, I, Jacob, take it upon me to fulfil the commandment of my brother Nephi.

All those that seek earnestly, will view the atonement of Christ in vision, and will know firsthand, as Jacob did. But also following Christ, and suffering our own crosses of this world, will contribute to our true understanding.

As I mentioned before, in the preexistance did we know what life on earth would be like, but only after the actual experience did we truely understand that theoretical knowledge. The same it is with the atonement.

It seems that you feel it is false to accept the atonement without first uncerstanding the excact mechanics behind it, and up to an certain extend so I feel the same way as you do. But apart from the fact that I believe I actually do understand the vital points of the atonement becausse of the scriptures, I can talk from personal experience that the atonement does work, and that "it" does forgive my sins.

And this, to know how we can make the atonement work in our lives, and to have experiences with that knowledge, is the real vital knowledge we need to understand.

After all, I am still interested in your excact view, and would still be interested in you explaining your logical view in more detail to us.

The goat of Azael was not sacrificed, but sent into the wilderness. It was not Christ, since he was sacrificed. I tend to believe it is mostly a symbolism of sending our sins, and the devil to where they belong, by our rightousness.

Is punishment done by a sacrifice? How can someone else’s sacrifice pay for our sins?

We need to understand that Christ experienced both.. He offered himselfe to be punished in our regards though being innocent, which was the sacrifice he was willing to suffer from before the foundation of the world. A punishment is not a sacrifice if that punishment was justified, but because Christ offered himselfe innocently, that punishment was a sacrifice, for he, himselfe did not need the atonement, for he was pure, but we were the ones that needed it, and all he did, he did for his seed.

Christ offered himselfe to be punished in our regard thoug being innocent, which was the sacrifice he was willing to offer.

Well, we’re going in circles again. We’ve already talked about making deals on mysterious terms. I’m not saying that the atonement doesn’t work. It does work. It’s not a mystery at all. And it doesn’t require you to give up your agency. Remember, that we are still in the same war, and it’s all about our agency.

[Nataliya]

Is a transgression something that you are doing that is wrong, but you don't realize it is wrong or else you wouldn't be doing it?

I’d add that it could also be something that people were forced to do against their will. It could be done through mind control, pharmaceutical drugs, chemicals in food and environment, etc. There’re many ways that conspiring men use for that nowadays.

As soon as you find out it is wrong you stop/repent.

Yes on repent, and yes on stop, unless your ability to stop is compromised through the actions of the evil entities.

Is a sin something that you KNOW is wrong yet you continue to do it anyway?

I’d add that you are also able to stop doing it, but you continue to do it because of your desire to do evil.

[Simon]

I am just on my mobilephone now, so cant go into depth, but I agree very much with you here.

One of the reasons I disagree with Nataliyas view is because I am convinced that it in deed had to be innocent blood that got shed. Only this innocent blood of Christ satisfied the Father, and allowed Christ to change the means, and gave Christ the power to overpower justice with mercy. His innocent blood being shed satisfies the demands of justice... The justice of the Father has now been changed to the judgement of Christ, who judges with justice and mercy. This is how Christ obtained the keys over death and hell. If Christ had not been innocent, and were it not innocent blood that got shed, he could not have paid the required price, and had no claim on us. And none was innocent except him.

His blood crieth from the ground, and requires us to live up to Christs new conditions, or we become guilty as if we would crucify him anew, and out him to an open shame once again. But it also requires the Father to except Christs new authority over those who are his seed.

Would love to discuss further privately, if you will (;

Simon,

How can shedding innocent blood be a good thing? What kind of God would require shedding innocent blood? Look what the scriptures say about shedding innocent blood:

https://www.lds.org/search?q=shed+innoc ... scriptures" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Also, see one of my previous posts:

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=32999&start=120#p474605" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I will try to explain, but may need more time some other time.

When Alma and Amulek witnessed the burning of saints by evil people, Amulek wanted to stop this awefull scence by the power of God.. But Alma stopped him, explaining the reason:

Alma 14:11

The Spirit constraineth me that I must not stretch forth mine hand; for behold the Lord receiveth them up unto himself, in glory; and he doth suffer that they may do this thing, or that the people may do this thing unto them, according to the hardness of their hearts, that the judgments which he shall exercise upon them in his wrath may be just; and the blood of the innocent shall stand as a witness against them, yea, and cry mightily against them at the last day

.

There are two major lessons I learned from this scripture. First, evil people need to be allowed to act evil, so that their judgement will be just. Second, rightous people then have the right to claim justice from an higher instance, which in this case is God.

Now, with Christ is it similar, only that Christ was God himselfe, and that his intent was to change the means by which men can obtain salvation. Christ had to be innocent, and had to get killed in the flesh to fulfill the atonement. It is actually his blood through which people are either redeemed, or condemned. Because Christ chose to perform this great sacrifice, and shed his innocent blood, he now has the right on us, to be our judge, and to be our Saviour, to have the right to judge us with mercy an with justice.

To have the claim on us, Christ had to be punished for our sins.... This is the principle we also learn in the Book of Mormon

2 Nephi 9:5

¨..for it behooveth the great Creator that he suffereth himselfe to become subject unto man in the flesh, and die for all men, that all men might become subject unto him¨

Christ created us, and was foreordained to redeem us. But to have the right to claim us his, he needed to send below us, and by that obtain the rights and the keys.

[JaredAlmond]

.

[Simon]

The scriptures teach us that:The moment does not make us sinless unless we repent
My response
We do remember our sins after death, it is the guilt and shame that is gone. God knows all things and so will we including past transgressions/sins. Otherwise we could NOT be a God. Today is only one moment of eternity; eternity stretches from the now to forever.
Coming to being able to "fill the measure of our creation" requires repentance, learning of Christ and a burning desire to keep the commandments.

The scriptures teach us that: The moment does not make us sinless unless we repent-
My response
You are right. My point is that in each moment is the opportunity to repent.
What does repent mean? metanoeó: to change one's mind or purpose(http://biblehub.com/greek/3340.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;). Repent is to change.
When is it within your control to change? Only is the current present moment. Nobody has ever ability to change yesterday and you can't change tomorrow until that moment comes.. soo each present moment is the reality and it is eternity. It is the only time you can actually DO or rather BE anything.
You truly can repent(change) in a moment. After which you simply need to use each following moment to remain consistent or CHOOSE to BE that change. Repentence is changing the erroneous direction you are facing and face God.
Forgiveness on the other hand does take more than a moment and is in Gods control. (Your sincerity, motives and willingness to sacrifice will help Him determine the length.)

Here is a good definition of The Repenting process: Verily, thus saith the Lord: It shall come to pass that every soul who
1 forsaketh his sins and
2 cometh unto me,
3 calleth on my name, and
4 obeyeth my voice,
5 keepeth my commandments,
shall see my face and know that I am. D&C 93;1

We do remember our sins after death, it is the guilt and shame that is gone. God knows all things and so will we including past transgressions/sins.
It's not about you knowing about a sin. God knows all sins and knows what it feels like to commit all sins. The burden he has taken as you mention is guilt and shame. (good point)

Today is only one moment of eternity; eternity stretches from the now to forever.
Coming to being able to "fill the measure of our creation" requires repentance, learning of Christ and a burning desire to keep the commandments.
Yes, yes, and yes... however God gives you the desire and that is in His hands. You can't take that away from him yet we always try. We want to control everything. God Changes your desire with Light and truth that he endows once you are facing the light. Facing Him. Depending on his grace and mercy is required and he will make you BE you not just do things we hope it might save you. We need to follow steps 1-5 which can all be done right now in this moment and let God do the rest.

I will post a break down light and truth and how it impacts our "sin" with accompanying scriptures.
Question to consider: What is sin??
Could it be simply believing in an illusion and acting on that illusion? Also are you only acting on that desire because you lack further light and knowledge which would change your desire to ever think of repeating that act...? If it is the desire that ultimately needs to change for you to not repeat a "sin" than what is paramount? Easy.. changing that desire. Therefore seeking light and truth and implementing it proceeds that change.
This light and truth is given by the lord and is embodied by the Record of Heaven(knoweth all things). Who is the Record of Heaven? The Holy Ghost. Where does the Holy Ghost Abide? Where do we then find all Light and Truth?

Just to clarify, it was freedomforall who wrote the above, my name is put in the wrong place here ;)

[JaredAlmond]

Oh Got it:) Well I hope this clarifies it for Freedomforall or helps anyone that might be interested.
Made a couple changes so Here it is corrected.

The scriptures teach us that:The moment does not make us sinless unless we repent
Response
We do remember our sins after death, it is the guilt and shame that is gone. God knows all things and so will we including past transgressions/sins. Otherwise we could NOT be a God. Today is only one moment of eternity; eternity stretches from the now to forever.
Coming to being able to "fill the measure of our creation" requires repentance, learning of Christ and a burning desire to keep the commandments.

The scriptures teach us that: The moment does not make us sinless unless we repent-
My response
You are right. My point is that in each moment is the opportunity to repent.
What does repent mean? metanoeó: to change one's mind or purpose(http://biblehub.com/greek/3340.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;). Repent is to change.
When is it within your control to change? Only in the current present moment. Nobody has ever had the ability to change yesterday and you can't change tomorrow until that moment comes.. soo each present moment is the reality and it is eternity. It is the only time you can actually DO or rather BE anything.
You truly can repent(change) in a moment. After which you simply need to use each following moment to remain consistent or CHOOSE to BE that change. Repentence is changing the erroneous direction you are facing and face God.
Forgiveness on the other hand does take more than a moment and is in Gods control. (Your sincerity, motives and willingness to sacrifice will help Him determine the length.)

Here is a good definition of The Repenting process: Verily, thus saith the Lord: It shall come to pass that every soul who
1 forsaketh his sins and
2 cometh unto me,
3 calleth on my name, and
4 obeyeth my voice,
5 keepeth my commandments,
shall see my face and know that I am. D&C 93;1. All 5 of this steps is a choice you have withing your ability now.

We do remember our sins after death, it is the guilt and shame that is gone. God knows all things and so will we including past transgressions/sins.
Reponse
It's not about you knowing about a sin. God knows all sins and knows what it feels like to commit all sins. The burden he has taken as you mention is guilt and shame. (good point)

Today is only one moment of eternity; eternity stretches from the now to forever. Coming to being able to "fill the measure of our creation" requires repentance, learning of Christ and a burning desire to keep the commandments.
Response
Yes, yes, and yes... however God gives you the desire and that is in His hands. You can't take that away from him yet we always try. We want to control everything. God Changes your desire with Light and truth that he endows once you are facing the light. Facing Him. Depending on his grace and mercy is required and he will make you BE you not just do things we hope it might save you. We need to follow steps 1-5 which can all be done right now in this moment and let God do the rest.

I will post a break down of light and truth and how it impacts our "sin" with accompanying scriptures.
Question to consider: What is sin??
Could it be simply believing in an illusion and acting on that illusion(false belief that something makes/will make you happy)? Also are you only acting on that desire because you lack further light and knowledge which would change your desire to ever think of repeating that act...? If it is the desire that ultimately needs to change for you to not repeat a "sin" than what is paramount? Easy.. changing that desire. Therefore seeking light and truth and implementing it proceeds that change.
This light and truth is given by the lord and is embodied by the Record of Heaven(knoweth all things). Who is the Record of Heaven? The Holy Ghost. Where does the Holy Ghost Abide? Where do we then find all Light and Truth? That gift It is within you.

[Simon]

I wished you could explain your logic in a manner so that it also makes sense to me, but so far, it doesnt.

I’ll try again to explain, but I don’t want to write a long boring post. So, I’ll make it short.

Does it make sense that an offender must be punished in order to satisfy demands of justice?

From the scriptures, among other things, do we learn two things,

First, those that do not live up to Christs conditions, will have to suffer even as Christ did. Now, what does this mean. Imagine a perfect, strong, actually extremely strong man of perfect faith, that says about the pain that he experienced, that it made even him, God, to suffer, and to bleed from every pore, and to shrink from that bitter cup of the wrath of God.. Imagine that strong being declaring these feelings even decades after the event.. How sore must be that kind of punishment? But yes, this is the punishment of those that do not live up to the conditions of the atonement of Christ.

Second
Now, when Christ atoned for our sins, he was not just punished innocently in our regards, but also chose to by free choice, which makes this punishment also a sacrifice. Sacrifice is essential for progression. Sacrifice included that Christ first needed to submit to men in the flesh, so that afterwards he could submit men to him, or in other words, that he could obtain the rights and the keys over all those things he submitted himselfe to first.

In our case, meaning when we will get punished for our sins, we neither are innocent, nor will our pain be a sacrifice by choice. This means that our punishment will not help us in the least degree to progress, or to move on, or to become clean. The filthy blood of mankind can never suffice to atone for our sins. If we suffer for our own sins, it is justice in action, but not forgiveness.

This is why it is so essential that Christ had to pay the price, so that he could claim us his. He can claim us his due to him suffering our punishment innocently, by choice, offered as a sacrifice to the Father.

When Alma sufferef the agony of his conscionce, and the pains of hell, the only thing that could redeem him from his pain was Christ... No matter how sore his punishment, or how painfull his suffering, he would have remained in that state forever, if Christ had not paid the price, and by that obtained the right to remove the pain from Almas conscionce.

Do you agree that most of us don’t have full knowledge of the truth of all things at this point, and if so, we don’t have complete understanding of all consequences of choices that we make?

Yes, I believe this. And we are only accountable when we know the law of God, and act against it... But, if Christ had not atoned for the sins we commit in ignorance, these sins would also all be accounted as our own. Christ truely came so that we can at least have the chance to grow out of our sinful nature.. It is a hard way.

Do you agree that Satan is the source of all evil?

Yes and no. Originally he was one of us. He had his choice to become evil, so do we all have that choice. We can also be "creators" of evil, and by that also become sources of evil, being accountable for that on our own. We have received the knowledge of good and evil in the garden of Eden, and since than are accountable up to a certain degree. We cant blame the devil for all th evil in the world.

Do you agree that Satan would be the offender if he manipulated and tricked a person desiring to do good into committing a crime?

Up to a certain extent, yes. But, let me ask you a question. When you choose to act upon the whisperings of the Spirit, will it be accounted as rightousness to you, or will it be accounted as rightusness to the Spirit you just listened to?

Sure, the devil is an offender, and an accuser, and he will be responsible for his deeds, and he will receive his punishment.. But still, we will also be judged according to our ability to judge between light and darkness, which ability all of us have. If not so, we could never be acounted rightous, for each time we listened to the Spirit it will be counted as rightousness for the Spirit, and not for us. But, we are responsible whom we follow by choice.

Does it make sense that Satan would have to be punished for this crime? Do you agree that the demands of justice would be satisfied by punishing Satan for this crime, even if the person that was tricked into committing the crime was pardoned after learning all the truth about it and repenting?

We know that the devil will get punished for his deeds.. No one doubts that

Would the demands of mercy be satisfied in that case as well?

In what regard?

Also, do you agree that it would be just to punish a person who desired to do evil and was committing crimes intentionally and with full knowledge?

I think I explained my view on this sufficiently above. But in short, we know that these are the ones that will receive the same punishment as the Lord, only that it will not have any positive effect for them. No progression, no forgiveness, no other conditions, but just punishment without any power to set up a claim for anything.

[Desert Roses]

I've only read parts of this thread, and someone else may have gone into this, but one thing I understand is that the atonement is not "fair" or "logical." It is called by many prophets "grace" or an UNDESERVED gift. ( Ephesians 3:2; Titus 3:7; Moroni 10:32; 2 Nephi 11:5; Mosiah 18:16 as a few examples). To Nataliya, the idea of an innocent suffering for guilty seems unfair--she is right. It is unfair. But it was given as a gift from one who willingly chose to give it. There's a big catch, however. I (or you or any of humanity) must choose to accept the gift. That means that I have to accept willingly being purchased by Christ's blood. in a sense, I am a slave, as one commenter noted, bought to do the will of Him who paid my price. However, I am not an unwilling slave. Anyone who is unwilling is automatically exempted from the gift. Those who remain guilty, who refuse to accept the assistance of Christ's sacrifice to change their hearts, do not become innocent. That is what the atonement does--it makes me innocent again, like a child (remember Christ's admonition to become like a little child? Matthew 18:3). I do not pretend that it is logical. How can it be logical that I, who was cynical, street-smart, and worldly, am now gentle, filled with peace, and yes, innocent? It is not, yet it is truly so.

In Alcoholics Anonymous, there is a saying, one that is frequently repeated, and experienced many times over by those who accept the grace of God (Christ). "God did for us what we could not do for ourselves." In their case, it was to give up drink. In the case of each of us, there is something we are unable to give up or change on our own. I do not pretend to know HOW it is done, but it is done, and I have been able to make changes with His help that were entirely out of my ability (I know--I tried every method I ever found).

Another truth taught by those in AA is that humility is the key to unlock this mystery. Humility means acknowledging that inability, and coming to believe that it is possible, and then making a decision to turn our will and life over to God for His changing process. It is both simple and difficult. It is never logical; and that is the paradox. The more we give our will to Christ (God), the more freedom and power we receive to change and become!

There are lots of things that are logical in this life--Grace and the atoning gift that brings me, a sinner, this undeserved innocence and power to change is certainly not one of them.