The Not Even Once Club

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keep the faith
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Re: The Not Even Once Club

Post by keep the faith »

Seek the Truth wrote:
Original_Intent wrote:that book makes me sad.
this thread, which is just an opportunity for the Love Denver Snuffer (LDS) group to pile on also makes me sad. I love Denver also, by the way, but this enthusiastic trashing of this book that is indeed terrible - the whole thing doesn't feel right.

I will say that LDSFF makes me not feel right on a regular basis lately. I see apologists that I feel are institutionalized (in the Shawshank Redemption sense of the term) and I see many who complain that Christ is never mentioned in the church, but then the majority of their posting centers around Denver and WWDSD and very little (there I some and it is wonderful) posting about Christ and the gospel. And these people also now hold our very thinly veiled bitterness towards the institution.

The forum is making me sad. I don't want to leave because I Zion won't be built if every time we disagree with someone, we withdraw and separate. But I am not feeling the joy, and my light feels like it is dimming not brightening.

I am glad for those who are progressing and who the forum is helping. And I am not sure if the fact that posts that uplift me are becoming the rare gem - I do not know whether the fault lies within myself or if it noise to signal ratio tanking.

Definitely need to hit the scriptures and stay away from here for a while.
It's just an internet forum.
Sacrilege! :D

Rand
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Posts: 2472

Re: The Not Even Once Club

Post by Rand »

I agree with OI in his sentiments. I have read the reviews on Amazon, not the book. But good gracious.... these same people would be scathing toward the Savior and his Sermon on the Mount. Sad really, just sad.

Seek the Truth
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Re: The Not Even Once Club

Post by Seek the Truth »

As a member of the club, I say I like the sound of this book.

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Fairminded
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Re: The Not Even Once Club

Post by Fairminded »

Seek the Truth wrote:As a member of the club, I say I like the sound of this book.
=)) =)) =))

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jbalm
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Re: The Not Even Once Club

Post by jbalm »

Seek the Truth wrote:As a member of the club, I say I like the sound of this book.
I see mommy let you have your computer back.

Ribble
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Re: The Not Even Once Club

Post by Ribble »

We just have to remember that children are so sensitive and they are limited in their capacity to reason. It takes a lot of study, prayer, and experience to balance "grace and works." To insinuate that perfection is required for a child is to condemn that child to potential psychological and spiritual trauma. Children just do not have the intellectual capacity to deal with the subject of perfection.

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paper face
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Re: The Not Even Once Club

Post by paper face »

Ribble wrote:We just have to remember that children are so sensitive and they are limited in their capacity to reason. It takes a lot of study, prayer, and experience to balance "grace and works." To insinuate that perfection is required for a child is to condemn that child to potential psychological and spiritual trauma. Children just do not have the intellectual capacity to deal with the subject of perfection.
Yet they are perfectly capable of managing the burdens of guilt and the threat of punishments. They learn plenty about rejection and lack of belonging at school. Why not throw perfection on that pile, and let their moms lead the way in that Zoloft-fueled effort to do things the right way every time?

If dysfunction is our function, then the author must be some kind of genius.

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skmo
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Re: The Not Even Once Club

Post by skmo »

My wife called and spoke with Wendy over the weekend. As a result of their chat, Wendy is doing a revised copy of the book to fit with what the world* wants.

The revised edition will be called “The Never More Than Five or Six Times a Day Unless You Have a Diagnosed Emotional Condition Club” and the focus of the book is going to change as well. Instead of teaching kids to not sin, the main message of the book will be to teach kids to believe that if they whine loudly enough, they can force a change upon whomever they wish. It will do a great deal to empower children so they can accomplish whatever they want to in the world. Don’t want to have to work for a living? Just whine about it until you get free food, free homes, and free cell phones. (I can just hear the joy in the people’s voices now: “I won’t have to worry about putting gas in my car, I won’t have to worry about my mortgage.”) Don’t want to have to obey commandments? Just whine about it until you get ones you can live with. Critics who have seen advanced copies of the changes say that they are thrilled, and that they believe the book will help today’s kids become the most prosperous generation to never have to face responsibility.

In addition, Wendy will be talking to her husband about an idea for him to float to the prophet and other apostles: A change to the scriptures. The idea is that God is being too strict, and that He’s making people have hurt feelings by having to try to hard to obey commandments. Henceforth, Matthew 5:48 is being proposed to read as follows:
Be ye therefore as good as ye can be, and choose ye from an individual plan or a family plan of commandments with rollover sin indulgences, even as AT&T be.
*For those who say this is not in line with God’s ways, remember that He has shown that if people whine enough, He will give in and allow them to have what they demand, although it is often followed by a hoard of Babylonians or Philistines.

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Kellie
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Re: The Not Even Once Club

Post by Kellie »

How about a book about it being ok to make mistakes and repentance? Christ message is not about being perfect, it is about becoming perfect throught the atonement.

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stillwater
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Re: The Not Even Once Club

Post by stillwater »

Kellie wrote:How about a book about it being ok to make mistakes and repentance? Christ message is not about being perfect, it is about becoming perfect throught the atonement.
Any Greek speaking Christian who read Matthew's rendition on the sermon on the Mount would probably read the commandment
"be ye therefore perfect (teleioi)" and recognize that it is Christ who is the "author and finisher (teleioten)" of their faith.

How much damage are we doing to our children by teaching them the false gospel of cultural-acceptance-through-absolute-obedience-to-rules?

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BMC
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Re: The Not Even Once Club

Post by BMC »

skmo wrote:My wife called and spoke with Wendy over the weekend. As a result of their chat, Wendy is doing a revised copy of the book to fit with what the world* wants.

The revised edition will be called “The Never More Than Five or Six Times a Day Unless You Have a Diagnosed Emotional Condition Club” and the focus of the book is going to change as well. Instead of teaching kids to not sin, the main message of the book will be to teach kids to believe that if they whine loudly enough, they can force a change upon whomever they wish. It will do a great deal to empower children so they can accomplish whatever they want to in the world. Don’t want to have to work for a living? Just whine about it until you get free food, free homes, and free cell phones. (I can just hear the joy in the people’s voices now: “I won’t have to worry about putting gas in my car, I won’t have to worry about my mortgage.”) Don’t want to have to obey commandments? Just whine about it until you get ones you can live with. Critics who have seen advanced copies of the changes say that they are thrilled, and that they believe the book will help today’s kids become the most prosperous generation to never have to face responsibility.

In addition, Wendy will be talking to her husband about an idea for him to float to the prophet and other apostles: A change to the scriptures. The idea is that God is being too strict, and that He’s making people have hurt feelings by having to try to hard to obey commandments. Henceforth, Matthew 5:48 is being proposed to read as follows:
Be ye therefore as good as ye can be, and choose ye from an individual plan or a family plan of commandments with rollover sin indulgences, even as AT&T be.
*For those who say this is not in line with God’s ways, remember that He has shown that if people whine enough, He will give in and allow them to have what they demand, although it is often followed by a hoard of Babylonians or Philistines.
That's going over, above and beyond the mark. Charity and love are the key to following Christ, the greatest of these examples can be seen throughout the scriptures through Christ's ministry. Of course, God commands us to be perfect, he cannot underscore the seriousness of sin, with that being said approaching that topic with children vs. adults plays a very different role in how its taught. Overall the book does not appear to be bad at all, its the underlying cryptic message that is illustrated that causes issues and harm. We have been given an impossible task to be perfect that we cannot do on our on, and to adopt the theology of not sinning not even once sets a person up for failure. There is plenty of anecdotal evidence of this, because we will fall short every time. Yes teaching to abstain from sinful activity, and to do our best is the right approach even to not do it once coupled with the Savior is the key, when the Savior is removed from the process as it is in this illustration it demonizes the teaching, because it enforces something we simply cannot do. There could have been added to this book a way out for those who fall short. I get the message, often times people say sinning once is okay and I can repent later. I believe that is what she may be trying to show here, but the removal of the only person who can make us perfect from the story whom the command originates underscores a more important part of that lesson in becoming perfect and that is repentance and that it is possible for all to repent.


Where is love and charity taught in this book?

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Kellie
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Re: The Not Even Once Club

Post by Kellie »

stillwater wrote:
Kellie wrote:How about a book about it being ok to make mistakes and repentance? Christ message is not about being perfect, it is about becoming perfect throught the atonement.
Any Greek speaking Christian who read Matthew's rendition on the sermon on the Mount would probably read the commandment
"be ye therefore perfect (teleioi)" and recognize that it is Christ who is the "author and finisher (teleioten)" of their faith.

How much damage are we doing to our children by teaching them the false gospel of cultural-acceptance-through-absolute-obedience-to-rules?
I agree, for a long time I thought I could eventually be good enough, but now realize that it is impossible. My hope is that my children never come to believe this false teaching.

jo1952
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Posts: 1699

Re: The Not Even Once Club

Post by jo1952 »

stillwater wrote:
Kellie wrote:How about a book about it being ok to make mistakes and repentance? Christ message is not about being perfect, it is about becoming perfect throught the atonement.
Any Greek speaking Christian who read Matthew's rendition on the sermon on the Mount would probably read the commandment
"be ye therefore perfect (teleioi)" and recognize that it is Christ who is the "author and finisher (teleioten)" of their faith.

How much damage are we doing to our children by teaching them the false gospel of cultural-acceptance-through-absolute-obedience-to-rules?
Perhaps it is through these types of ill-fated good intentions (as I prefer to believe that this sister did not have evil intentions when she wrote this book) that our children will be brought more quickly to the point of their spiritual awakening. IOW, the added stress and opposition this type of thinking perpetrates upon their minds will cause them to experience their baptism by fire at an accelerated rate. I wonder sometimes if the teaching that if the days were not shortened, even the elect could be destroyed may actually be referring to a shortened amount of physical time being required before our spirit awakes and is born of the Spirit.

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jbalm
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Re: The Not Even Once Club

Post by jbalm »

Kellie wrote:How about a book about it being ok to make mistakes and repentance? Christ message is not about being perfect, it is about becoming perfect throught the atonement.
Or, a book in which admission into "the club" is granted when the kids demonstrate acts of kindness or engage in selfless service. So many better options than "be ye therefore (superficially) perfect, or else."

jo1952
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Posts: 1699

Re: The Not Even Once Club

Post by jo1952 »

BMC wrote:
That's going over, above and beyond the mark. Charity and love are the key to following Christ, the greatest of these examples can be seen throughout the scriptures through Christ's ministry. Of course, God commands us to be perfect, he cannot underscore the seriousness of sin, with that being said approaching that topic with children vs. adults plays a very different role in how its taught. Overall the book does not appear to be bad at all, its the underlying cryptic message that is illustrated that causes issues and harm. We have been given an impossible task to be perfect that we cannot do on our on, and to adopt the theology of not sinning not even once sets a person up for failure. There is plenty of anecdotal evidence of this, because we will fall short every time. Yes teaching to abstain from sinful activity, and to do our best is the right approach even to not do it once coupled with the Savior is the key, when the Savior is removed from the process as it is in this illustration it demonizes the teaching, because it enforces something we simply cannot do. There could have been added to this book a way out for those who fall short. I get the message, often times people say sinning once is okay and I can repent later. I believe that is what she may be trying to show here, but the removal of the only person who can make us perfect from the story whom the command originates underscores a more important part of that lesson in becoming perfect and that is repentance and that it is possible for all to repent.

Where is love and charity taught in this book?
I cannot help but notice that Christ wants US to be as the little children. Meanwhile, this book appears to be teaching our children that they aren't good enough to be like those little children Christ wants us to be like unless they are a member of the Not Even Once Club.

Seek the Truth
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Re: The Not Even Once Club

Post by Seek the Truth »

jbalm wrote:
Seek the Truth wrote:As a member of the club, I say I like the sound of this book.
I see mommy let you have your computer back.
Has your mommy got any better quips for you to work with. I'll ask mine if she does, look for a PM.

Seek the Truth
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Re: The Not Even Once Club

Post by Seek the Truth »

stillwater wrote: Any Greek speaking Christian who read Matthew's rendition on the sermon on the Mount would probably read the commandment
"be ye therefore perfect (teleioi)" and recognize that it is Christ who is the "author and finisher (teleioten)" of their faith.

How much damage are we doing to our children by teaching them the false gospel of cultural-acceptance-through-absolute-obedience-to-rules?
None.

Seek the Truth
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Re: The Not Even Once Club

Post by Seek the Truth »

Kellie wrote:How about a book about it being ok to make mistakes and repentance?
Because not committing the sin is better. And frankly there are no shortages of those books/resources.

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Fairminded
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Re: The Not Even Once Club

Post by Fairminded »

Seek the Truth wrote:As a member of the club, I say I like the sound of this book.
You've chosen to elevate yourself to a perch currently occupied only by the Savior himself. Faced with such hubris one is left with the choice of responding with amusement or outrage. I initially chose amusement, but your continued posts are swinging me around to outrage.

Either way it's hard to take you seriously.

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Kellie
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Re: The Not Even Once Club

Post by Kellie »

Seek the Truth wrote:
Kellie wrote:How about a book about it being ok to make mistakes and repentance?
Because not committing the sin is better. And frankly there are no shortages of those books/resources.
Are you asking about any sin or a list of those you feel are "worse" than others, because I thought that God could not look upon sin with the least degree of allowance? I agree that you can avoid some sins, but certainly not all.

jo1952
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Re: The Not Even Once Club

Post by jo1952 »

Seek the Truth wrote:
Kellie wrote:How about a book about it being ok to make mistakes and repentance?
Because not committing the sin is better. And frankly there are no shortages of those books/resources.
Yet Christ's Atonement is for the sinner; not for those who do not sin.

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skmo
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Re: The Not Even Once Club

Post by skmo »

Yet He commanded us to be perfect, just what Wendy is encouraging us to have our kids aim for.

Seek the Truth
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Re: The Not Even Once Club

Post by Seek the Truth »

jo1952 wrote:
Seek the Truth wrote:
Kellie wrote:How about a book about it being ok to make mistakes and repentance?
Because not committing the sin is better. And frankly there are no shortages of those books/resources.
Yet Christ's Atonement is for the sinner; not for those who do not sin.
Christ's atonement is for everyone, because even if you managed to be sinless you could not raise your body or save your soul.

Seek the Truth
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Re: The Not Even Once Club

Post by Seek the Truth »

Fairminded wrote:
Seek the Truth wrote:As a member of the club, I say I like the sound of this book.
You've chosen to elevate yourself to a perch currently occupied only by the Savior himself. Faced with such hubris one is left with the choice of responding with amusement or outrage. I initially chose amusement, but your continued posts are swinging me around to outrage.

Either way it's hard to take you seriously.
Tongue in cheek friend, just keeping it real.

Seek the Truth
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Re: The Not Even Once Club

Post by Seek the Truth »

Kellie wrote:
Seek the Truth wrote:
Kellie wrote:How about a book about it being ok to make mistakes and repentance?
Because not committing the sin is better. And frankly there are no shortages of those books/resources.
Are you asking about any sin or a list of those you feel are "worse" than others, because I thought that God could not look upon sin with the least degree of allowance? I agree that you can avoid some sins, but certainly not all.
I'm not asking about anything.

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