Visions of Glory - As told to John Pontius

[Gad]

Is it just me, but does our fascination with hierarchy and deference to those in the chief seats strike anyone else as silly? Christ washes the apostles feet and tells them that the greatest among them is the best servant. We flip that around. I dunno... maybe it is cause it is so late here, but right now it is really striking me as foolish and vain.

[Nataliya]

Is it just me, but does our fascination with hierarchy and deference to those in the chief seats strike anyone else as silly? Christ washes the apostles feet and tells them that the greatest among them is the best servant. We flip that around. I dunno... maybe it is cause it is so late here, but right now it is really striking me as foolish and vain.

Gad, I agree with you. My comment wasn't meant to elevate the President of the church somehow. I was simply confirming BringerOfJoy's post regarding the church in the Spencer's vision, that it wouldn't be the same after cleansing.

[Gad]

Is it just me, but does our fascination with hierarchy and deference to those in the chief seats strike anyone else as silly? Christ washes the apostles feet and tells them that the greatest among them is the best servant. We flip that around. I dunno... maybe it is cause it is so late here, but right now it is really striking me as foolish and vain.

Gad, I agree with you. My comment wasn't meant to elevate the President of the church somehow. I was simply confirming BringerOfJoy's post regarding the church in the Spencer's vision, that it wouldn't be the same after cleansing.

Yeah, your comment reminded me of the great pains Spencer and John went through to include that deference to hierarchy. All the little nods and stuff.

[Sariel]

Is it just me, but does our fascination with hierarchy and deference to those in the chief seats strike anyone else as silly? Christ washes the apostles feet and tells them that the greatest among them is the best servant. We flip that around. I dunno... maybe it is cause it is so late here, but right now it is really striking me as foolish and vain.

Yes it is silly. At church I hear more about following the prophet or "the brethren" than I do about following Christ. Even in my primary lesson manual many suggested or possible correct answers are "follow the prophet". In many lessons scriptures are quoted to create the opportunity to say "follow the prophet" when it really has nothing to do with the lesson. You would think the prophet was the highest authority. Maybe this isn't exactly what you are talking about, but it reminded me of this.

[Gad]

Is it just me, but does our fascination with hierarchy and deference to those in the chief seats strike anyone else as silly? Christ washes the apostles feet and tells them that the greatest among them is the best servant. We flip that around. I dunno... maybe it is cause it is so late here, but right now it is really striking me as foolish and vain.

Yes it is silly. At church I hear more about following the prophet or "the brethren" than I do about following Christ. Even in my primary lesson manual many suggested or possible correct answers are "follow the prophet". In many lessons scriptures are quoted to create the opportunity to say "follow the prophet" when it really has nothing to do with the lesson. You would think the prophet was the highest authority. Maybe this isn't exactly what you are talking about, but it reminded me of this.

Yeah, we are on the same page.

[BringerOfJoy]

BTW, the President of the church in Spencer's vision won't survive the disasters.

I don't remember seeing this. If possible could you give a page number where he says this?

You're right, I can't find this now either. I guess, the following statements made me think of it. The first two quotes are from the page 141:
"Only one brother sat in the three seats reserved for the First Presidency".
"The senior remaining Apostle stood and welcomed us and announced the first portion of the meeting".

This quote is from the page 142:
"They announced the new First Presidency, and the new Brethren moved to their seats".

And this one is on the page 143:
"He turned to the newly ordained prophet and nodded, as seeking his approval".

Good catch, nn. Those flew right by me.

[A Random Phrase]

Is it just me, but does our fascination with hierarchy and deference to those in the chief seats strike anyone else as silly? Christ washes the apostles feet and tells them that the greatest among them is the best servant. We flip that around. I dunno... maybe it is cause it is so late here, but right now it is really striking me as foolish and vain.

Answer: Absolutely. That was one of the things about the book that made me back away later on, but then I thought that it may have been something added according to the understanding of men. You know, the assumption that even Christ would wear a business suit, that the hierarchy would function as it had in the past, complete with cultural deference/ideas, the "honoring" of those who in Christ's opinion should be the servants of all (not the masters to be honored and given the chief seats in the synagogues).

[A Random Phrase]

[to nn35"]Yeah, your comment reminded me of the great pains Spencer and John went through to include that deference to hierarchy. All the little nods and stuff.

Yep.

[Etosha]

"Yes it is silly. At church I hear more about following the prophet or "the brethren" than I do about following Christ. Even in my primary lesson manual many suggested or possible correct answers are "follow the prophet". In many lessons scriptures are quoted to create the opportunity to say "follow the prophet" when it really has nothing to do with the lesson. You would think the prophet was the highest authority. Maybe this isn't exactly what you are talking about, but it reminded me of this."

I would just like to say the following about the prophet . . .


"First: The prophet is the only man who speaks for the Lord in everything.

In section 132 verse 7 of the Doctrine and Covenants [D&C 132:7] the Lord speaks of the prophet—the president—and says:

“There is never but one on the earth at a time on whom this power and the keys of this priesthood are conferred.”

Then in section 21 verses 4–6 [D&C 21:4–6], the Lord states:

“Wherefore, meaning the church, thou shalt give heed unto all his words and commandments which he shall give unto you as he receiveth them, walking in all holiness before me;

“For his word ye shall receive, as if from mine own mouth, in all patience and faith."



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“For by doing these things the gates of hell shall not prevail against you.”

Second: The living prophet is more vital to us than the Standard Works.

[Gad]

I think one of the mistakes we make that has brought us under condemnation... one of the ways we treat lightly and forget "even the Book of Mormon and the former commandments [the D&C] which I have given them" is to expand the revelations given to and referring specifically to Joseph Smith into some sort of general applicability to all of his successors. The Lord specifies an individual and we lightly treat His words as applying far beyond the individual he specified.

D&C 21:1 A revelation of Jesus Christ unto his servant Joseph Smith, Jun., and six elders, as they united their hearts and lifted their voices on high.

D&C 132:1 Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you my servant Joseph, that inasmuch as you have inquired of my hand to know and understand wherein I, the Lord, justified my servants Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as also Moses, David and Solomon, my servants, as touching the principle and doctrine of their having many wives and concubines—

[Nataliya]

Is it just me, but does our fascination with hierarchy and deference to those in the chief seats strike anyone else as silly? Christ washes the apostles feet and tells them that the greatest among them is the best servant. We flip that around. I dunno... maybe it is cause it is so late here, but right now it is really striking me as foolish and vain.

Yes it is silly. At church I hear more about following the prophet or "the brethren" than I do about following Christ. Even in my primary lesson manual many suggested or possible correct answers are "follow the prophet". In many lessons scriptures are quoted to create the opportunity to say "follow the prophet" when it really has nothing to do with the lesson. You would think the prophet was the highest authority. Maybe this isn't exactly what you are talking about, but it reminded me of this.

+1

"O Lord, I have trusted in thee, and I will trust in thee forever. I will not put my trust in the arm of flesh; for I know that cursed is he that putteth his trust in the arm of flesh. Yea, cursed is he that putteth his trust in man or maketh flesh his arm." (2Ne. 4:34)

[Nataliya]

I would just like to say the following about the prophet . . .


"First: The prophet is the only man who speaks for the Lord in everything.

In section 132 verse 7 of the Doctrine and Covenants [D&C 132:7] the Lord speaks of the prophet—the president—and says:

“There is never but one on the earth at a time on whom this power and the keys of this priesthood are conferred.”

Then in section 21 verses 4–6 [D&C 21:4–6], the Lord states:

“Wherefore, meaning the church, thou shalt give heed unto all his words and commandments which he shall give unto you as he receiveth them, walking in all holiness before me;

“For his word ye shall receive, as if from mine own mouth, in all patience and faith."



http://www.lds.org/liahona/1981/06/four ... t?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

“For by doing these things the gates of hell shall not prevail against you.”

Second: The living prophet is more vital to us than the Standard Works.

"Cursed is he that putteth his trust in man, or maketh flesh his arm, or shall hearken unto the precepts of men, save their precepts shall be given by the power of the Holy Ghost." (2Ne. 28:31)

"There are those among this people who are influenced, controlled, and biased in their thoughts, actions, and feelings by some other individual or family, on whom they place their dependence for spiritual and temporal instruction, and for salvation in the end. These persons do not depend upon themselves for salvation, but upon another of their poor, weak, fellow mortals. I do not depend upon any inherent goodness of my own, say they, to introduce me into the kingdom of glory, but I depend upon you, brother Joseph, upon you, brother Brigham, upon you, brother Heber, or upon you, brother James; I believe your judgment is superior to mine, and consequently I let you judge for me; your spirit is better than mine, therefore you can do good for me; I will submit myself wholly to you, and place in you all my confidence for life and salvation; where you go I will go, and where you tarry there I will stay; expecting that you will introduce me through the gates into the heavenly Jerusalem....Now those men, or those women, who know no more about the power of God, and the influences of the Holy Spirit, than to be led entirely by another person, suspending their own understanding, and pinning their faith upon another's sleeve, will never be capable of entering into the celestial glory, to be crowned as they anticipate; they will never be capable of becoming Gods. They cannot rule themselves, to say nothing of ruling others, but they must be dictated to in every trifle, like a child. They cannot control themselves in the least, but James, Peter, or somebody else must control them, They never can become Gods, nor be crowned as rulers with glory, immortality, and eternal lives. They never can hold scepters of glory, majesty, and power in the celestial kingdom. Who will? Those who are valiant and inspired with the true independence of heaven, who will go forth boldly in the service of their God, leaving others to do as they please, determined to do right, though all mankind besides should take the opposite course." (Brigham Young, presented in the Salt Lake Tabernacle on February 20, 1853, found in Journal of Discourses, 1:312)

Apostle Charles W. Penrose said: "President Wilford Woodruff is a man of wisdom and experience, and we respect him, but we do not believe his personal views or utterances are revelations from God; and when 'Thus saith the Lord', comes from him, the saints investigate it: they do not shut their eyes and take it down like a pill." Millennial Star 54:191

"Do not brethren, put your trust in man though he be a bishop, an apostle, or a president. If you do, they will fail you at some time or place; they will do wrong or seem to, and your support is gone; but if we lean on God, He never will fail us. When men and women depend on God alone, and trust in Him alone, their faith will not be shaken if the highest in the Church should step aside. Perhaps it is His own design that faults and weaknesses should appear in high places in order that His Saints may learn to trust in Him, and not in any man or men." (George Q. Cannon, Millennial Star, 53:674-74)

President Joseph Smith read the 14th chapter of Ezekiel - said the Lord had declared by the Prophet, that the people should each one stand for himself, and depend on no man or men in that state of corruption of the Jewish church - that righteous persons could only deliver their own souls - applied it to the present state of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints - said if the people departed from the Lord, they must fall - that they were depending on the Prophet, hence were darkened in their minds." (Description of Joseph Smiths teachings to the Relief Society, found in the Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 237-238)

When Are the Writings and Sermons of Church Leaders Entitled to the Claim of Being Scripture?

I assume the scripture behind this question is the declaration of the Lord in a revelation given through Joseph primarily to Orson Hyde, Luke S. Johnson, Lyman E. Johnson, and William E. M'Lellin, who were to engage in missionary work. After addressing a word first to Orson Hyde, the Lord continued:

"And, behold, and lo, this is an ensample unto all those who were ordained unto this priesthood, whose mission is appointed unto them to go forth-- And this is the ensample unto them, that they shall speak as they are moved upon by the Holy Ghost. And whatsoever they shall speak when moved upon by the Holy Ghost shall be scripture, shall be the will of the Lord, shall be the mind of the Lord, shall be the word of the Lord, shall be the voice of the Lord, and the power of God unto salvation". (D&C 68:2-4.)

The very words of the revelation recognize that the Brethren may speak when they are not "moved upon by the Holy Ghost"; yet only when they do speak as "moved upon" is what they say considered scripture. No exceptions are given to this rule or principle. It is universal in its application.

The question is, how shall we know when the things they have spoken were said as they were "moved upon by the Holy Ghost"?

I have given some thought to this question, and the answer thereto, so far as I can determine, is: We can tell when the speakers are "moved upon by the Holy Ghost" only when we, ourselves, are "moved upon by the Holy Ghost." In a way, this completely shifts the responsibility from them to us to determine when they so speak. ("When Are the Writings and Sermons of Church Leaders
Entitled to the Claim of Scripture?", President J. Reuben Clark, Jr., of the First Presidency, Address to Seminary and Institute Personnel, BYU, 7 July 1954.)

[Etosha]

SO what you are saying is that we should teach our Primary children not to follow the Prophet because he is a man.

The Prophets pray for us and for how to lead the church continually and they receive instruction so I think it's just silly how people think they know better what the Prophets should do to lead and guide us. I would use a stonger word than silly but then I would have to repent!

We are to get personal revelation on what the Prophet says - you can choose to be a sheep or you can choose personal revelation to know when the Prophet makes a statement that pertains to us - that it is true and we should follow it.

When it concerns what to teach the Saints, would we want people teaching from their own personal opinions and using who knows what sources in teach our children? I had a Sunday school teacher teaching my kids that we were first created from water - what? They were so confused! I had a guy in my ward teaching that he was Samuel the Laminite - what? Is it not clear why we have teaching manuels and a specific course for teaching and what materials are to be used!

I believe this is why we are still being taught only the Basic foundation principles - we are not ready for more yet. When we are He (God - the one who is in charge and knows more than us) will change what and how we are being taught.

[Gad]

To avoid idolatry, we should teach our primary children and everyone to follow Christ. We should teach them to do what the Presiding High Priest says. And we should teach them to receive the true prophets who point to Christ and not to themselves.

[marc]

We are given manuals and courses and reading plans because on our own, as a whole, we are not searching knowledge. This is what Nephi and so many others in the BoM tried to explain and what Joseph Smith tried to explain and why the Savior has placed our church under condemnation and why we are still under this condemnation. We have not learned from history because we are not studying it when it is given to us plainly. So we have become dependent on being spoon fed.

[Etosha]

For 2013 these are just a few of the lessons our kids will be getting . . .

I Choose to Follow Jesus Christ
The Birth of Jesus Christ Brought Joy to the Earth
Jesus Christ Was a Child like Me
I Can Speak with Heavenly Father in Prayer
I Can Tell Others about Jesus Christ
Come, Follow Me
Jesus Christ Has the Power to Heal
Jesus Christ Loves Me
The Teachings of Jesus Christ Are a Great Treasure
Blessed Are the Peacemakers
Jesus Christ Is the Good Shepherd
I Can Show Gratitude
I Will Remember Jesus Christ during the Sacrament
I Can Follow Jesus Christ by Serving Others
Jesus Christ Is Our Savior
The Church of Jesus Christ Is on the Earth
Jesus Christ Will Come Again
We Celebrate the Resurrection of Jesus Christ
Jesus Christ Is the Greatest Gift

[Gad]

Those all sound great. [wryly] I suppose all is well and we shouldn't be concerned. [/wryly] On a serious note, sure there is lots of great thing the institution does for the church. But the fact remains that we are under condemnation and are not Zion. I take my kids to the chapel and have them taught by the institution's manuals. I invite others to do so as well. I just happen to believe the scriptures when they talk about our institution lacking in certain respects. In another forum and for another audience my focus would be on how and why people should come and be part of the institution. But in this forum and to this audience I tend to discuss what we as the church can do to make the institution better.

[Etosha]

In another forum and for another audience my focus would be on how and why people should come and be part of the institution
I don't understand what this could mean - and what other forum are you talking about this on.

[Gad]

In another forum and for another audience my focus would be on how and why people should come and be part of the institution
I don't understand what this could mean - and what other forum are you talking about this on.

I talk with other people in real life and on the internet who are disaffected with the institution and either have or are considering leaving it. To them, my message is how and why they should come and partake of the fellowship of the church that the institution provides.

To my neighbors and coworkers of other faiths I discuss the truths restored by Joseph and preserved by the institution.

I feel the spirit strongly during these discussions. I feel like the Lord has given me this assignment -- to bring these sheep back into the institution. I pray constantly for some of these people who I truly love that they will be able to overlook the problems that prevent Zion and see the good and truth they will gain from our weekly fellowship.

But, here on this forum, is where I go to partake fellowship with others who are secure in the gospel and follow Christ above all else. Here is where I learn with others the meat that we greatly desire. This is the place where I come to discuss Christ and without fear discuss the "blood and sins of my people, the LDS" so that I may repent and overcome those failings.

If all you read is what I post here you may not realize how much I love the institution. I'm about as culturally Mormon as they come. It was very hard for me to learn of our mistakes. But in the end, I think we have a good chance that a good amount of us will overcome these things and be part of the group that will build Zion. All it requires is the humility to look at our failings with the desire to repent and overcome them.

[Etosha]

"If all you read is what I post here you may not realize how much I love the institution. I'm about as culturally Mormon as they come. It was very hard for me to learn of our mistakes. But in the end, I think we have a good chance that a good amount of us will overcome these things and be part of the group that will build Zion. All it requires is the humility to look at our failings with the desire to repent and overcome them."
I guess thats my problem - I'm not culturally mormon, didn't grow up LDS so my perspective is different that yours I guess. I've been mormon long enough that I see the cultural meaning but I still have a different prespective - I see alot of mormons who are only interested in their image - judging people by things like smoking or word of wisdom problems which I see as just a problem that needs to be overcome with patience and faith but they see as someone needs to be ex'd. I had a visiting teaching companion who was going to divorce her husband because he was smoking, she was shocked at my reply, I said is he a good husband, good father - she said yes, I said so don't worry about it. Support him in all that he does that is good and reassure him that you love him and will help him through this and you won't judge him but will be his rock.

[Gad]

"If all you read is what I post here you may not realize how much I love the institution. I'm about as culturally Mormon as they come. It was very hard for me to learn of our mistakes. But in the end, I think we have a good chance that a good amount of us will overcome these things and be part of the group that will build Zion. All it requires is the humility to look at our failings with the desire to repent and overcome them."
I guess thats my problem - I'm not culturally mormon, didn't grow up LDS so my perspective is different that yours I guess. I've been mormon long enough that I see the cultural meaning but I still have a different prespective - I see alot of mormons who are only interested in their image - judging people by things like smoking or word of wisdom problems which I see as just a problem that needs to be overcome with patience and faith but they see as someone needs to be ex'd. I had a visiting teaching companion who was going to divorce her husband because he was smoking, she was shocked at my reply, I said is he a good husband, good father - she said yes, I said so don't worry about it. Support him in all that he does that is good and reassure him that you love him and will help him through this and you won't judge him but will be his rock.

Yeah, that would be the Christlike thing to do. And your point about how we judge people is one of those failings that I was mentioning. There is a lot culturally that needs to be trimmed away. And there is also a lot in the institution that are traditions of our fathers that need to be trimmed as well.

Most of the people I deal with are Christlike (they aren't judging others for smoking for example, in fact they are turned off by that)... but can't understand things like City Creek or Mountain Meadows, or other things that the institution has hidden... they learn about the errors of the institution, and see how the institution has hidden things and then they see the judgmental people in the church and it feels like they have been betrayed.

So I try to help them understand things in context.

[Etosha]

"City Creek or Mountain Meadows, or other things that the institution has hidden... they learn about the errors of the institution, and see how the institution has hidden things and then they see the judgmental people in the church and it feels like they have been betrayed."Isn't City Creek just a shopping mall? Mountain Meadows - what was hidden, there are books on it, what errors - the failings of men? I look at them as failings of men and they have nothing do do with the truthfullness of the gospel. The was I handle the judgemental people is to ignore it, I pretend they are good and that I don't even know that they are judgemental and I treat them like they are kind. I think I learned that by teaching primary!

[BringerOfJoy]

I guess thats my problem - I'm not culturally mormon, didn't grow up LDS so my perspective is different that yours I guess. I've been mormon long enough that I see the cultural meaning but I still have a different prespective - I see alot of mormons who are only interested in their image - judging people by things like smoking or word of wisdom problems which I see as just a problem that needs to be overcome with patience and faith but they see as someone needs to be ex'd. I had a visiting teaching companion who was going to divorce her husband because he was smoking, she was shocked at my reply, I said is he a good husband, good father - she said yes, I said so don't worry about it. Support him in all that he does that is good and reassure him that you love him and will help him through this and you won't judge him but will be his rock.

Etosha--I DO get where you are coming from--I'm also a convert, and I remember President Kimball writing about a young girl that he interviewed when she was pregnant. He asked her if she and the father of the baby were discussing marriage, and she replied that there was no way she could marry him: He smoked. I laughed quite a bit at that story, and thought about how ridiculous that was, but when I brought it up in a couple of lessons in RS and YW; some people looked at me like, "Duh, of COURSE she couldn't marry him: He SMOKES!!!"

But I also get what Gad is saying. I have come to see how being a convert predisposed me to becoming a follower of the brethren, more than a follower of Christ--because I thought they were all perfect (and that everything they said was perfect) when I first joined the church. Someone who grew up LDS surrounded by future church leaders in SLC would probably not have suffered from that error, though they might have a lot of respect for some. I have come to see that even when I am following a man who is following Christ, my own view of Christ is blocked unless I peek out from behind the man. That doesn't mean I can't pick up a few tips (I most certainly have--thank goodness for Elders Smith, Kimball, McConkie, Haight, Scott, Holland, to name a few) from that man if he happens to be a few steps ahead of me on the same path--BUT I no longer trust my salvation to them--that's not what they are here for!

[Gad]

I'm on my phone now so I can't really respond, but there are people that run into issues because of those topics among others. You are right that it is not the gospel, but the institution is nut the gospel either.

[BringerOfJoy]

.