Visions of Glory - As told to John Pontius

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Catherine
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Re: Visions of Glory - As told to John Pontius

Post by Catherine »

mirkwood wrote:
Stahura wrote: When the prophet had been saying for years to have food storage and I read this book where he has a vision of these calamities, it only makes me realize why the prophets and apostles have talked so much about food storage and I should probably listen to those prophets IN CASE something like what visions of Glory depicts actually happens. It never hurts to be prepared.
That anyone in our church needs to be motivated by the sensationalism (leaving aside the issues of false doctrine) these types of people and books are providing is disturbing.
Well don't be disturbed. They don't care that you are disturbed. Not everyone may be as evolved and in tune as you claim to be. We need to give everyone their own time to progress and learn in this life.

Stacy Oliver
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Re: Visions of Glory - As told to John Pontius

Post by Stacy Oliver »

Catherine wrote:
I still don't believe that you have to be so bothered by it. It seems to be a deeper issue then that. People need to find these things out for themselves. No one can force anyone to feel exactly the way they feel or think they should feel. If the Spencer's, Julie's, Hecto'rs...are just a big bunch of liars or have just been deceived, and some people blow their life savings and quit life and hunker down in a cave then so be it. They have every right to do that. Making mistakes and suffering consequences is how we are refined. If that does in fact happen, those people will be aware and make better decisions when faced with what to do next time. We have to allow everyone their own timetable in their growth and progress in life. We are not all the same.
"It becometh every man who hath been warned to warn his neighbor." I'm not okay with letting people suffer. We are specifically told NOT to just sit by and let people make bad decisions. If people are being deceived, they should be warned. They have the absolute right to ignore any warnings, but I know that I would like people to warn me if I were being deceived.

Zathura
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Re: Visions of Glory - As told to John Pontius

Post by Zathura »

Can one of these perfect Mormons explain to me when the church erased this from our Articles of Faith?

13 We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul--We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

Zathura
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Re: Visions of Glory - As told to John Pontius

Post by Zathura »

Stacy Oliver wrote:
Catherine wrote:
I still don't believe that you have to be so bothered by it. It seems to be a deeper issue then that. People need to find these things out for themselves. No one can force anyone to feel exactly the way they feel or think they should feel. If the Spencer's, Julie's, Hecto'rs...are just a big bunch of liars or have just been deceived, and some people blow their life savings and quit life and hunker down in a cave then so be it. They have every right to do that. Making mistakes and suffering consequences is how we are refined. If that does in fact happen, those people will be aware and make better decisions when faced with what to do next time. We have to allow everyone their own timetable in their growth and progress in life. We are not all the same.
"It becometh every man who hath been warned to warn his neighbor." I'm not okay with letting people suffer. We are specifically told NOT to just sit by and let people make bad decisions. If people are being deceived, they should be warned. They have the absolute right to ignore any warnings, but I know that I would like people to warn me if I were being deceived.
So who's being deceived? How are they being deceived? Spencer tells readers that the vision applies only to him. He encourages Faith in Christ and to follow the Living Prophet.
He places his own asterisk on every vision and dream he shares, stating that he doesn't know if these things be literal or symbolic.

You focus too much on the messenger and too little on the message. If Thomas Monson wrote that exact book and not "spencer", you would be telling everyone to read it. Because it isn't your "beloved prophet" somehow people are being deceived.

Stacy Oliver
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Posts: 1892

Re: Visions of Glory - As told to John Pontius

Post by Stacy Oliver »

Stahura wrote:
Stacy Oliver wrote:
Catherine wrote:
I still don't believe that you have to be so bothered by it. It seems to be a deeper issue then that. People need to find these things out for themselves. No one can force anyone to feel exactly the way they feel or think they should feel. If the Spencer's, Julie's, Hecto'rs...are just a big bunch of liars or have just been deceived, and some people blow their life savings and quit life and hunker down in a cave then so be it. They have every right to do that. Making mistakes and suffering consequences is how we are refined. If that does in fact happen, those people will be aware and make better decisions when faced with what to do next time. We have to allow everyone their own timetable in their growth and progress in life. We are not all the same.
"It becometh every man who hath been warned to warn his neighbor." I'm not okay with letting people suffer. We are specifically told NOT to just sit by and let people make bad decisions. If people are being deceived, they should be warned. They have the absolute right to ignore any warnings, but I know that I would like people to warn me if I were being deceived.
So who's being deceived? How are they being deceived? Spencer tells readers that the vision applies only to him. He encourages Faith in Christ and to follow the Living Prophet.
He places his own asterisk on every vision and dream he shares, stating that he doesn't know if these things be literal or symbolic.

You focus too much on the messenger and too little on the message. If Thomas Monson wrote that exact book and not "spencer", you would be telling everyone to read it. Because it isn't your "beloved prophet" somehow people are being deceived.
1. The fact that he published it maligns the idea that he believes it is just for him. Even if he did truly believe it, thatxif not how it is being received.

2. I said quite specifically how people were being deceived and the consequences of that deception.

3. I would recommend the book if it were true. I attack because it is not. When did I ever make an ad hominem attack against Spencer? I only attacked the message as untrue and that people who believe it are deceived.

Zathura
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Re: Visions of Glory - As told to John Pontius

Post by Zathura »

Stacy Oliver wrote:
Stahura wrote:
Stacy Oliver wrote:
Catherine wrote:
I still don't believe that you have to be so bothered by it. It seems to be a deeper issue then that. People need to find these things out for themselves. No one can force anyone to feel exactly the way they feel or think they should feel. If the Spencer's, Julie's, Hecto'rs...are just a big bunch of liars or have just been deceived, and some people blow their life savings and quit life and hunker down in a cave then so be it. They have every right to do that. Making mistakes and suffering consequences is how we are refined. If that does in fact happen, those people will be aware and make better decisions when faced with what to do next time. We have to allow everyone their own timetable in their growth and progress in life. We are not all the same.
"It becometh every man who hath been warned to warn his neighbor." I'm not okay with letting people suffer. We are specifically told NOT to just sit by and let people make bad decisions. If people are being deceived, they should be warned. They have the absolute right to ignore any warnings, but I know that I would like people to warn me if I were being deceived.
So who's being deceived? How are they being deceived? Spencer tells readers that the vision applies only to him. He encourages Faith in Christ and to follow the Living Prophet.
He places his own asterisk on every vision and dream he shares, stating that he doesn't know if these things be literal or symbolic.

You focus too much on the messenger and too little on the message. If Thomas Monson wrote that exact book and not "spencer", you would be telling everyone to read it. Because it isn't your "beloved prophet" somehow people are being deceived.
1. The fact that he published it maligns the idea that he believes it is just for him. Even if he did truly believe it, thatxif not how it is being received.

2. I said quite specifically how people were being deceived and the consequences of that deception.

3. I would recommend the book if it were true. I attack because it is not. When did I ever make an ad hominem attack against Spencer? I only attacked the message as untrue and that people who believe it are deceived.

His message is:
Follow the living Prophet, believe in Christ, sanctify yourself that you can receive the fullness of the priesthood.

He then shares visions and dreams that he was told to share, and reaffirms that he does not know if it is literall or symbolic, only that he was told to share it.

Don't call that which is good bad, and that which is bad good.

Catherine
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Re: Visions of Glory - As told to John Pontius

Post by Catherine »

Stacy, by your own thinking, if his message is true, then I would be obligated to warn you. You have herby been warned;) In all sincerity though, you cannot say that you know for sure it is false. Just like I cannot say for sure that is true. We need to all make our own judgements on the matter. No one can force either side. And to try is not God's way. And to get bothered and angry is definitely not God's way.

Stacy Oliver
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Posts: 1892

Re: Visions of Glory - As told to John Pontius

Post by Stacy Oliver »

Catherine wrote:Stacy, by your own thinking, if his message is true, then I would be obligated to warn you. You have herby been warned;) In all sincerity though, you cannot say that you know for sure it is false. Just like I cannot say for sure that is true. We need to all make our own judgements on the matter. No one can force either side. And to try is not God's way. And to get bothered and angry is definitely not God's way.
Yes, if you knew it were true, you would be obligated to warn me.

Of course there's a way to know if it's true. I am certain that events will not unfold as Spencer describes them.

Who's trying to force anyone else?

Yes, we do have to make our own judgments. But people who know better should warn those who don't. That principle is why God gave us parents.

What do you mean it's not God's way to get angry? Which Bible have you been reading?
Last edited by Stacy Oliver on September 23rd, 2015, 8:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Catherine
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Re: Visions of Glory - As told to John Pontius

Post by Catherine »

Stacy Oliver wrote:
Catherine wrote:Stacy, by your own thinking, if his message is true, then I would be obligated to warn you. You have herby been warned;) In all sincerity though, you cannot say that you know for sure it is false. Just like I cannot say for sure that is true. We need to all make our own judgements on the matter. No one can force either side. And to try is not God's way. And to get bothered and angry is definitely not God's way.
Yes, I'd you knew it were true, you would be obligated to warn me.

Of course there's a way to know if it's true. I am certain that events will not unfold as Spencer describes them.

Who's trying to force anyone else?

Yes, we do have to make our own judgments. But people who know better should warn those who don't. That principle is why God gave us parents.

What do you mean it's not God's way to get angry? Which Bible have you been reading?
You are right. Events will not unfold for you the way Spencer feels they will unfold for him. You can be certain of that. But that is all you can be certain of. Let me clarify. God can do anything he wishes. It is clear how he wants his children to behave.
You aren't going to get it. I don't need to keep trying . Good luck to you.

zionminded
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Re: Visions of Glory - As told to John Pontius

Post by zionminded »

The saints are STARVING for the type of events we read about in scriptures, where the Lord reveals additional light and truth. Christ will show it to you, just ask. And keep asking.

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Sandinista
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Re: Visions of Glory - As told to John Pontius

Post by Sandinista »

If all the people who read and idolize Spencer, Hector, and JR spent as much time reading and studying their scriptures, "official" Church publications, and the words of those they sustain as living prophets I wonder what they would be saying. Just asking the question! :)

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h_p
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Re: Visions of Glory - As told to John Pontius

Post by h_p »

Sandinista wrote:If all the people who read and idolize Spencer, Hector, and JR spent as much time reading and studying their scriptures, "official" Church publications, and the words of those they sustain as living prophets I wonder what they would be saying. Just asking the question! :)
Is reading and idolizing synonymous to you? If someone read VoG, felt inspired to take living the gospel more seriously, caught their own vision of Zion, and began cleansing his/her life to prepare for it, would that be a bad thing?

This topic isn't about JR or Hector. I think it would be unfair to lump them all together. VoG said nothing of the AVOW-style tent cities.

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Robin Hood
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Re: Visions of Glory - As told to John Pontius

Post by Robin Hood »

I picked up my copy of VoG the other day; the first time since I read it more than a year ago.
I opened it randomly and began to read. I was stunned at the nonsense I was reading. A number of things jumped out at me that I hadn't noticed previously.
This has prompted me to go through the book really thoroughly and list all of the issues, contradictions, and false teachings. I will post them here when I've finished.

Catherine
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Re: Visions of Glory - As told to John Pontius

Post by Catherine »

Robin Hood wrote:I picked up my copy of VoG the other day; the first time since I read it more than a year ago.
I opened it randomly and began to read. I was stunned at the nonsense I was reading. A number of things jumped out at me that I hadn't noticed previously.
This has prompted me to go through the book really thoroughly and list all of the issues, contradictions, and false teachings. I will post them here when I've finished.

Oh wow. We will all be waiting with bated breath.

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durangout
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Re: Visions of Glory - As told to John Pontius

Post by durangout »

Robin Hood wrote:I picked up my copy of VoG the other day; the first time since I read it more than a year ago.
I opened it randomly and began to read. I was stunned at the nonsense I was reading. A number of things jumped out at me that I hadn't noticed previously.
This has prompted me to go through the book really thoroughly and list all of the issues, contradictions, and false teachings. I will post them here when I've finished.

Wait a sec..are you saying you don't believe a guy with "3 advanced degrees" would be stupid enough to go to Mexico to have 3 jaw / cheek bone / eye socket / cancer surgeries? ;)

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h_p
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Re: Visions of Glory - As told to John Pontius

Post by h_p »

Again, with the mocking.

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Sandinista
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Re: Visions of Glory - As told to John Pontius

Post by Sandinista »

h_p wrote:
Sandinista wrote:If all the people who read and idolize Spencer, Hector, and JR spent as much time reading and studying their scriptures, "official" Church publications, and the words of those they sustain as living prophets I wonder what they would be saying. Just asking the question! :)
Is reading and idolizing synonymous to you? If someone read VoG, felt inspired to take living the gospel more seriously, caught their own vision of Zion, and began cleansing his/her life to prepare for it, would that be a bad thing?

This topic isn't about JR or Hector. I think it would be unfair to lump them all together. VoG said nothing of the AVOW-style tent cities.
You're right. Maybe "idolize" is the wrong word. If you step back and read many posts on this forum dealing with VoG/"Spencer", as well as Hector Sosa and Julie Rowe, from a totally unbiased viewpoint a better word would be "worship".

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h_p
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Re: Visions of Glory - As told to John Pontius

Post by h_p »

And still, nobody is willing to respond to my questions. I guess if it doesn't fit in with your world view, it just can't be possible, right?

Later, guys. I'm done here. Continue with your mocking and criticizing.

Catherine
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Re: Visions of Glory - As told to John Pontius

Post by Catherine »

h_p wrote:And still, nobody is willing to respond to my questions. I guess if it doesn't fit in with your world view, it just can't be possible, right?

Later, guys. I'm done here. Continue with your mocking and criticizing.

People have to leave all of the time. I did too for a few weeks. There is a group of combative people that claim that this is a forum where people are not going to agree with one another. That is true but the delivery is often off. They come off sounding condescending, demeaning, defensive, and angry. I just chalk it up to their own personal issues. They have been hurt in the past and haven't moved past it yet. On the other hand, there are some really knowledgeable, compassionate, and reasonable people here too. Maybe take a break for awhile,and if you come back avoid the threads that are led by the ones you know are going to be negative. You can usually tell by the title of the thread. And then of course by their name. If everyone did that they would be left to just fight amongst themselves.

zionminded
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Re: Visions of Glory - As told to John Pontius

Post by zionminded »

Robin Hood wrote:I picked up my copy of VoG the other day; the first time since I read it more than a year ago.
I opened it randomly and began to read. I was stunned at the nonsense I was reading. A number of things jumped out at me that I hadn't noticed previously.
This has prompted me to go through the book really thoroughly and list all of the issues, contradictions, and false teachings. I will post them here when I've finished.
Please do, I've read it many times and I agree with John Pontius's comments, that everything that he wrote proxy for "Spenser" was congruent with his spiritual and intellectual understanding of the last days.

Zathura
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Re: Visions of Glory - As told to John Pontius

Post by Zathura »

I do believe that Spencer saw what he saw. But I don’t believe it should always be interpreted as literal, or even prophetic, for anyone but Spencer himself. Anyone else who reads must interpret how or even if it applies to them. I think it should be prayerfully studied and compared to scripture, your own understanding, and your faith, and then left to Jesus Christ Himself to reveal to you your own journey to Zion. Anyone who has studied the latter days, the Second Coming, or the building of Zion in scripture will quickly admit that it is hard to interpret, and most of it is given as a metaphor or type of things to come, rather than as specific and actual events to watch for. I wouldn’t expect Spencer’s visions to be any different. My answer will also be that I don’t know what it should mean to you, or to anyone else who reads it. Spencer will readily admit that he doesn’t know what every part of it means to even him still. Some things that for years he has interpreted as being literal, have recently revealed themselves to be metaphorical, and the other way around. All he really knows is that for whatever reason, he saw what he saw, and the Lord has given him permission after all these years to share it with us. -visions of glory

Like I said, spencer and John put and asterisk on it. They admit they don't know what's literal or symbolic

. All they know is They felt The Spirit of truth as they wrote these things down and that it was Gods will that they write it.

zionminded
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Re: Visions of Glory - As told to John Pontius

Post by zionminded »

durangout wrote:
Robin Hood wrote:I picked up my copy of VoG the other day; the first time since I read it more than a year ago.
I opened it randomly and began to read. I was stunned at the nonsense I was reading. A number of things jumped out at me that I hadn't noticed previously.
This has prompted me to go through the book really thoroughly and list all of the issues, contradictions, and false teachings. I will post them here when I've finished.

Wait a sec..are you saying you don't believe a guy with "3 advanced degrees" would be stupid enough to go to Mexico to have 3 jaw / cheek bone / eye socket / cancer surgeries? ;)
A poor one. As he said isn't the book.

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durangout
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Re: Visions of Glory - As told to John Pontius

Post by durangout »

zionminded wrote:
Robin Hood wrote:I picked up my copy of VoG the other day; the first time since I read it more than a year ago.
I opened it randomly and began to read. I was stunned at the nonsense I was reading. A number of things jumped out at me that I hadn't noticed previously.
This has prompted me to go through the book really thoroughly and list all of the issues, contradictions, and false teachings. I will post them here when I've finished.
Please do, I've read it many times and I agree with John Pontius's comments, that everything that he wrote proxy for "Spenser" was congruent with his spiritual and intellectual understanding of the last days.

It should be. All of the Zion material from VoG is basically a copy / restatement of a significant portion of his book The Triumph of Zion which incidentally was published 2 yers befor VoG.

Zathura
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Re: Visions of Glory - As told to John Pontius

Post by Zathura »

zionminded wrote:
Robin Hood wrote:I picked up my copy of VoG the other day; the first time since I read it more than a year ago.
I opened it randomly and began to read. I was stunned at the nonsense I was reading. A number of things jumped out at me that I hadn't noticed previously.
This has prompted me to go through the book really thoroughly and list all of the issues, contradictions, and false teachings. I will post them here when I've finished.
Please do, I've read it many times and I agree with John Pontius's comments, that everything that he wrote proxy for "Spenser" was congruent with his spiritual and intellectual understanding of the last days.
I second this.

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truthseekerDave
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Re: Visions of Glory - As told to John Pontius

Post by truthseekerDave »

I believe these visions. I like reading about others who believe also. Spencer has seen some of the visions of eternity, and has put them in detailed descriptions and modern English. Wow!

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