DNA Evidence for BofM Geography

[jbalm]

He sure is aggressive about peddling his viewpoint, however.

[livy111us]

Yes he is. Which is to bad because I am sure he could offer something without trampling everyone in his path.

[Proud 2b Peculiar]

I don't want to start an argument, but the opinions of past leaders have varied greatly. That is because there is no revealed doctrine on the issue.

Here is one among many quotes by past leaders hinting at a Central American setting. President Hinckley in his prayer at the dedication of the Mexico City temple in December 1983, he stated, "Bless Thy Saints in this great land and those from other lands who will use this Temple. Most have in their veins the blood of Father Lehi" http://www.ldschurchtemples.com/cgi-bin ... onological
Was it revelation that these were the descendants of Lehi? Or was he going off of his understanding of The Book of Mormon?

Everyone is entitled to their own beliefs on the geography of The Book of Mormon, but the only thing I have a problem with is the tactics used by one LDS brother who is giving firesides around the nation. I don't mind if someone believes it happened in Ohio, Canada, the Yucatan, or Florida for that manner. As long as they are honest in their findings. I didn't find him to be.

I believe that they do have the blood of Lehi in them through the Lamanites. AND I believe that the Bismark dedication stated something about it being the land of Lehi or something like that.. Buffalo-Girl would know... I remember her posting that somewhere..

As to the Doctrine part:

D&C 54
8 And thus you shall take your journey into the regions westward, unto the land of Missouri, unto the borders of the Lamanites.

La Raza's land claim

http://ridersagainstillegalaliens.com/i ... n_map2.gif

Their progress

http://frontpage.americandaughter.com/?p=552

D&C 49: 24
24 But before the great day of the Lord shall come, Jacob shall flourish in the wilderness, and the Lamanites shall blossom as the rose. (OT this is the verse I read at 14 that led me to name my daughter Zion Rose)


Isa. 35: 1 (1-2).
1 The wilderness and the solitary place shall be glad for them; and the desert shall rejoice, and blossom as the rose.

2 Ne. 30: 6.
6 And then shall they rejoice; for they shall know that it is a blessing unto them from the hand of God; and their scales of darkness shall begin to fall from their eyes; and many generations shall not pass away among them, save they shall be a pure and a delightsome people.

3 Ne. 21: 25 (22-25).
25 And then shall the power of heaven come down among them; and I also will be in the midst.

D&C 3: 20.
20 And that the Lamanites might come to the knowledge of their fathers, and that they might know the promises of the Lord, and that they may believe the gospel and rely upon the merits of Jesus Christ, and be glorified through faith in his name, and that through their repentance they might be saved. Amen.

D&C 30: 6.
6 And be you afflicted in all his afflictions, ever lifting up your heart unto me in prayer and faith, for his and your deliverance; for I have given unto him power to build up my church among the Lamanites;

D&C 109: 65.
65 And cause that the remnants of Jacob, who have been cursed and smitten because of their transgression, be converted from their wild and savage condition to the fulness of the everlasting gospel;

[livy111us]

I am curious then, do you believe it is church doctrine that the BOM happened in North America?

[livy111us]

You may also know that the term "lamanite" has been used for native populations from South America to North America. I was going to point a few out, but there are literally hundreds of quotes from leaders calling these groups Lamanites. That is because, again, there is no revealed doctrine. Most believed in a Hemispheric geography for The Book of Mormon. That is the Lamanites lived in South America, the narrow neck was the Panama area, and the Nephites were in North America. This was promoted and believed (again because there is no doctrine on the subject) for years, being one of many, but probably the most popular. That means the term Lamanites was used for tribes and civilazations all over the Americas. The BoM has several terms for Lamanite. From cultural, to lineage, to beliefs, and basically to anyone who is not a Nephite is a Lamanite. So I do not disagree with the terms in the D/C, but do disagree if you use them as those groups were the only Lamanites on the American continents.

[livy111us]

One interesting thing about the NA theory is the climate. I just finished writing an email before I looked over hear about the climate in the BOM compared to the climates of the areas of NA and CA. Here is what I wrote

(This is in response to Alma 51:33, 37, 52:1 when the armies were tired from the heat of the day on the first day of the year)
I agree with Meldrum that they were on a calendar similar to the Jews, meaning April being the first of the year. But I disagree with his conclusion. Here is what one LDS scholar had to say about it "In the Eastern Mesoamerica coastal region, the average temperature on April 1st is 88 degrees. The Book of Mormon reports that Amalickiah camped in tents, "on the beach by the seashore" (Alma 51:32). In the northern climates around Rochester New York, the average temprature for April 1st is 42 degrees with the evening minimum temperature at freezing. The heat of the day is a phrase that best applies to Mesoamerica for late March and early April..." One wouldn't wear loin clothes to battle in tempratures like this, then complain it was to hot. If it was in North America, they should be mentioning how cold it was.

The Nephites do not mention snow in the area which they lived. When the pilgrims of Plymouth, Mass. in 1620 constantly referred to snow. If the major events of The Book of Mormon all happened around the New York hill Cumorah, one would expect to hear about snow. In Mesoamerica, one would not expect to hear about snow in their writings, and snow is not a topic about which they write. To the contrary, they write about the "heat of the day".

More interesting points can be found in Alma 14:8-23 when Alma and Amulek had their clothes taken from them, bound with cords and suffered "many days". Alma 10:6 sets the date as the 4th day 7th month, or around the beginning of October, end of September (lunar calendar). They were delivered from the prison on the "twelfth day in the tenth month" (Alma 14:23). That is about 96 days in prison, and corresponds to around the first week in January. If the BOM happened in N. America, the temp that they would have to endure would be, for the first week of January, a high of 31 degrees, and a low of 19 degrees. They would have surely died from exposure. But in Mesoamerica, the lowest temp would be in the mid-sixties. It would be cold, but survivable.

Enos who lived between 544 bc and 421 bc described the Lamanites as "wandering about the wilderness with a short girdle about their loins and their heads shaven" (Enos 1:25)
Around 178 bc, Zeniff said of the Lamanites dress "And they had their heads shaven and they were naked; and they were girded with a leathern girdle about their loins" Mosiah 10:8
In 87 bc said "the Lamanites were shorn; and they were naked, save it were skin which was girded about their loins" Alma 3:4-5
74 bc "they were naked, save it were a skin which was girded about their loins, yea all were naked save it were the Zoramites and the Amalekites" Alma 43:20

Alma 43:37 "nakedness was exposed"
Alma 44:18 "naked skins and their bare heads"
19 ad 3 Nephi 4:7 "lamb-skin about their loins"
The internal evidence in The Book of Mormon confirms that the Lamanites came to battle year round. Some of the wars lasted for six years and thye were not seasonal, but one continious struggle (Alma 51-62). As previously quoted, the naked and shorn Lamanites came to war in the sixth month (Sept, 3 Nephi 4:7) and the commencement of the year (April), and at the years end (March) (3 Nephi 4:1, 2:17, ALma 56:20). Teancums killing of Amalickiah was on the last day of the first month,March, and on the first day of the new moon near April 1st, they found Amalickiah dead in his own tent (Alma 51:33-37). Supplies are brought to the Stripling warriors of Helaman in the second month (May) (Alma 56:27). And these same groups of young soldiers were fighting in the seventh month (October) (Alma 56:42). Alma records a battle in the eleventh month (Feb. 10th) (Alma 49:1)
The sum of the matter is that the Lamanites came to battle and war dressed in only a loin cloth, and their heads were shaven. This tradition was perpetuated for centuries. They came to battle in Feb. March, April, May, Sept, and Oct. as specifically mentioned in the BOM, and some wars lasted for years. It is doubtful these battles took place in a climate not conducive to nakedness and loinclothes. Feb. in New York with loincloths is a stretch for the most avid adherent to the Canadian border believers. Year-round loincloths in Mesoamerica are a well established fact. When the explorer John Lloyd Stevens first arrived in Mesoamerica he made some preliminary observations: "The Indians were naked, except a small piece of cotton cloth around the loins, and crossing in front between the legs" It was November 1839.

[buffalo_girl]

Well, it's hot enough up here in North Dakota today to wear a loin cloth!

I'll get back into this discussion shortly. It may be tomorrow. I still have lots to do this evening.

buffalo_girl

[HeirofNumenor]

* 1 Ne. 11: 8 is the only mention of snow in the entire BoM. Very odd for a place snow that frequent and temperatures down in the negatives in the winter. Even odder that the sole mention was in vision of the tree of life, describing the whiteness of the tree and its fruit. Surely they would have mentioned snow in one of the battles or as an obstacle in their travels if it were common.
* Lamanites live with next to nothing covering their bodies, in tents and as wandering hunter-gatherers in the cold, windy lands of the high plains (such as Wyoming and the Dakotas), yet not only do they not freeze to death, they receive a "skin of blackness" (I'd assume that means a dark tan or pigmentation) as a result?
* A group that comes from Jerusalem, goes through one of the hottest lands on earth (Saudi Arabia), spends time on the beaches of present Yemen or Oman, and takes a near equatorial trip along the Indian and Pacific Oceans comment on the heat, humidity, and feverishness of their new climate.

Questions I have been asking for a year now, with no answer...especially the lack of snow or freezing winter weather.

* No substantial archaeological finds of stone or cement are found in North America to show a great civilization 600 BC-400 AD, yet many are found further south. Only the cities in the Land Northward were said to be made exclusively of wood, so most of their cities in the land of Zarahemla probably had a heavy amount of archaeologically durable materials.

Actually, in the end of the Book of Alma (chapter 63), after Mormon writes about the migrations northward, and Hagoth's voyages, the comment is made that the Nephites had to send lots of wood north, since there was none, so they built lots of cement buildings (Helaman 3:5-7):

Helaman 3:5-7
5 Yea, and even they did spread forth into all parts of the land, into whatever parts it had not been rendered desolate and without timber, because of the many inhabitants who had before inherited the land.
6 And now no part of the land was desolate, save it were for timber; but because of the greatness of the destruction of the people who had before inhabited the land it was called desolate.
7 And there being but little timber upon the face of the land, nevertheless the people who went forth became exceedingly expert in the working of cement; therefore they did build houses of cement, in the which they did dwell.

Yes, it says they lacked timber due to the previous people there (Jaredites?), but it also says they built houses of cement (lots of them because of lots of people)...

So where are the cement buildings in the Great Lakes/Midwest/Great Plains areas and Mississippi/Ohio River valleys?

I do not doubt that Nephites lived in these areas...especially near the end, but not that their civilization was centered there. Investigation and speculation is fun; the revealed Word is far better -- I'll rely on that.

[livy111us]

It is also interesting that in Central America there are several cities that were "sunk into the sea", just as The Book of Mormon says there should be.
Another interesting idea is that the Nephite calendar actually started Feb. 25th. There is a very detailed paper written by Randall Spackman "Introduction to Book of Mormon Chronology: The Principal Prophecies, Calendars, and Dates" F.A.R.M.S. paper, 1993

[ldsff]

It is also interesting that in Central America there are several cities that were "sunk into the sea", just as The Book of Mormon says there should be.
Another interesting idea is that the Nephite calendar actually started Feb. 25th. There is a very detailed paper written by Randall Spackman "Introduction to Book of Mormon Chronology: The Principal Prophecies, Calendars, and Dates" F.A.R.M.S. paper, 1993

Here a review of the above quoted paper.
http://farms.byu.edu/publications/jbms/ ... um=2&id=42

Comments on Nephite Chronology
John L. Sorenson

The publication of Randall P. Spackman's "Introduction to Book of Mormon Chronology: The Principal Prophecies, Calendars, and Dates"1 makes it advisable for me to clarify the record in regard to statements I have published on chronology.

In An Ancient American Setting for the Book of Mormon, I presented an expanded view of the Nephite calendar that I had briefly sketched in 1970.2 I pointed out that the statement in the Book of Mormon about "600 years" intervening between the departure of Lehi from Jerusalem and the signs of the birth of Jesus Christ reported in 3 Nephi could not be reconciled with the secular calendar. Any resolution of the discrepancy required recognition that the Nephites were using a "year" of different length than the solar year used in secular history in the tradition of Western civilization. I suggested that a "Mayan" (actually, southern Mesoamerican) "year" of 360 days was probably in use among them, and that when that unit was applied to interpret the scriptural statements, the major elements of Nephite chronology appeared to fall into place, with the departure of Lehi around 597 B.C. and the birth of the Savior in 5 B.C.

Those comments by me were made simply because the question of chronology seemed important to me, while nobody competent in the calendrical materials had to that point presented a sensible picture of the matter. I claimed only tentative understanding of the issues involved and saw myself as merely suggesting some possible, partial solutions. But I did not do serious research on the complex topic. After reading a prepublication draft of An Ancient American Setting, Jay Huber addressed the subject. I encouraged and commented on a draft of his long article which F.A.R.M.S. published as "Lehi's 600 Year Prophecy and the Birth of Christ."3 It represented a great improvement in depth of scholarship over my limited efforts. Now we have Spackman's important paper, which is far superior to anything heretofore (again, I commented critically, but positively, on drafts). I find Spackman's arguments generally persuasive. They should be considered to supersede any statements on the Nephite calendar I have made.

In particular, I had assumed that Lehi left Jerusalem in the first year of Zedekiah's reign.4 Rather, Spackman appears to be right that the departure took place shortly before the fall of Jerusalem, over a decade later, because assumptions I made about the timing of events reported in 1 Nephi 1–18 are less likely than those he advances. Furthermore, I supposed without adequate basis that while the "Mulekites" still used the Jewish lunar count (see the expression "moons" at Omni 1:21), Mosiah's party employed some sort of solar-based calendar which superseded that of Zarahemla's people upon their political amalgamation. Spackman soundly argues that the Jewish lunar count probably would have been used continuously by the Nephites even if they also followed a solar calendar. The less-than-600 solar years counted by Western secular history between the departure of Lehi from Jerusalem and the birth of Christ turns out to be accommodated better (in a cultural sense) by reference to a Nephite lunar calendar (with an average year length of about 354 days) than by my supposition of the adoption of a "Mayan" 360-day count.

Spackman's complex analysis still needs serious criticism by experts in the several subjects he treats, including the Jewish calendar, other Near Eastern calendars, astronomy, and Mesoamerican calendars. I comment here on one area where I can add something—the question of Mesoamerican seasons in relation to the Nephite calendar, on which my published views now also need correction.5

I had supposed that the Nephite new year's day referred to in Alma 51:37 and 52:1, when captain Teancum killed king Amalickiah and so turned back the Lamanite military offensive that had reached as far as the land of Bountiful, fell near the winter solstice in December. Spackman calculates that in the year 69 B.C., the Nephites' new year's day fell on February 25.6 My analysis of the Book of Mormon text found that most references to warfare placed it near the end or the beginning of the Nephite year. I reasoned that these Lamanite and Nephite military cam paigns would have been constrained by the same conditions that made most Mesoamerican warfare fall between late November and early February.

Further investigation has persuaded me, however, that I generalized too much. In fact, the length and timing of the "dry season" and "wet season" vary substantially from region to region, depending upon specific local meteorological and topographic conditions. Generalizing for the entire area can introduce errors when comparison is made with Book of Mormon events. Particularly, in the region I recognize as the probable location of Bountiful, southernmost Veracruz and extreme western Tabasco states in the Isthmus of Tehuantepec, rains during the North American winter months are caused by massive incursions into Mesoamerica of cold air masses from higher latitudes. These result from the polar air masses that sweep southward through the Mississippi River valley, then out across the Gulf of Mexico where additional moisture is picked up. When this air reaches southern Mexico, it is funnelled by mountains on either side of the saddle-shaped isthmus so that it pours across that pass and adjacent territories—the "bottom" of the Gulf of Mexico—out over the Pacific Ocean. On its way south up the Gulf Coast side, this air is orographically lifted by the mountains, causing it to drop much of its moisture on southern Veracruz, Tabasco, Campeche, and northern Chiapas. (Then, as it descends down the Pacific slope, the consequent warming effect produces strong, dry winds along the Pacific coast, which means that agriculture along that strip is always a doubtful business.) The rains produced by these "northers" in December through February mean that on the Gulf side of the isthmus "the so-called dry season is not very dry."7 Only March, April, and early May have low rainfall. For instance, at Santa Maria Chimalapa, up in the mountainous spine of the isthmus, rain due to northers recurs with some frequency through early February and irregularly up to another month after that.8 However, along the band of sand dunes "down by the seashore" (Alma 51:25) adjacent to the Gulf Coast ("the beach" of Alma 51:32), travel is usually feasible by February.9

Western highland Guatemala, which I consider part of the land of Nephi from which Lamanite soldiers would have been drawn, differs. Most of the northers are blocked by intervening high elevations; consequently, dry conditions develop months earlier than in the isthmus zone. The dry season in Guatemala begins in November; in late December the harvest begins and continues through the middle of February.10 But again, local factors make a big difference; the dry season lasts substantially longer along the very coast, and also back in the highlands, than in the intermediate zone—the foothills facing the Pacific Ocean.11

Amalickiah's armies were recruited from "the land of Nephi," and he would have had to adapt his plans to the agricultural schedule of the Lamanite peasants who formed the "wonderfully great army" that he dispatched to attack the city of Moroni on the east sea (Alma 51:9, 11–12, 22–28). A plausible schedule would have been: (1) much of the harvest already gath ered before the men departed from their home areas in the high lands (January?); (2) weeks of movement to a staging area (Antionum?) near Moroni on the east sea;12 (3) one or two weeks to conquer the settlements near the seacoast, from Moroni to near Bountiful (see Alma 51:23–28). Given the dates for the harvest on the one hand and the dry period when military operations in the field could be reliably scheduled on the other hand, for both my land of Nephi (highland Guatemala) and the Moroni-Bountiful area (Gulf Coast), I believe that logistics, weather, trail conditions, etc., would not permit an attack on Moroni to be launched before mid-February.13 Spackman's date of February 25 for the new year's day reported in Alma 52:1 is reasonable, as I now understand natural conditions in both contemporary Middle America and Book of Mormon lands. On the contrary, my earlier proposal for a date around the winter solstice now seems too early. The correlation between the Nephite months and our cur rent months which I proposed in Rediscovering the Book of Mormon thus needs to be revised by about two months.

[livy111us]

Thanks for posting that LDSff, that is very interesting.

[jbalm]

You may also know that the term "lamanite" has been used for native populations from South America to North America.

I've heard it applied to Polynesians also.

[Proud 2b Peculiar]

I am curious then, do you believe it is church doctrine that the BOM happened in North America?

I am saying that in the D&C the Lord says that the Lamanite border is the Western border of Missouri. I think that They multiplied and filled the land from Central America and upward.

BOM Intro

"The Book of Mormon is a volume of holy scripture comparable to the Bible. It is a record of God’s dealings with the ancient inhabitants of the Americas and contains, as does the Bible, the fulness of the everlasting gospel."

http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?v ... &hideNav=1

The first one is entitled “Ancient America.” Archaeologists have confirmed the existence of a great pre-Aztec civilization on the American continent. The Book of Mormon is a record of this civilization, beginning some 600 years before Christ when a man named Lehi left Jerusalem and came by boat to the Americas. The book was preserved by these ancient people on sheets of gold. Lehi’s son Nephi was a great prophet who foresaw much of this new land’s future. He foresaw a time after Christ’s resurrection when the Son of God would appear in America.

Finally he foresaw the restoration of the fullness of the gospel here on this land. “These last records … shall make known the plain and precious things which have been taken away from them. …” (1 Ne. 13:40.)

We know a land of liberty and religious freedom was a necessary ingredient in the plan of God. Thus, Columbus and others, particularly those seeking religious freedom, were led to the shores of America.

We believe that the Constitution was brought about by God to insure a nation where liberty could abound, where his gospel could flourish. Joseph Smith said, “The Constitution of the United States is a glorious standard; it is founded in the wisdom of God. It is a heavenly banner.” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 147.)

Another part of this Restoration was the revealing and translating of the Book of Mormon. Joseph described the visit of Moroni, who also returned as a messenger, with these words: “He said there was a book deposited, written upon gold plates, giving an account of the former inhabitants of this continent. … He also said that the fulness of the everlasting Gospel was contained in it, as delivered by the Savior to the ancient inhabitants.” (JS—H 1:34.)

Today we are fortunate to live in a choice and promised land. It will remain free and blessed as long as its people remember the God who gave them life and this free land. We must remember that the family is the basic unit of a strong society. We are all part of God’s family; and as our Father, he expects us to build strong family units. It is in the family that the basic morality and righteousness should be taught that will keep America free. Each member of every family plays an important role in America. For several thousand years throughout this land the great fathers and mothers, the noble sons, the patriot sons, the choice daughters have forged America into what we have today.

I want to again remind you of your responsibility to preserve the righteousness of America. I have reviewed 4,000 years of history, declaring this to be a land of promise, chosen of the Lord for his special purposes. Now we must deal with America’s future. The land must continue to remain strong and great and good. It is destined to be the major supplier of human and financial resources, to build the kingdom of God here in the whole world, and to prepare the world for the return of the Lord and Savior. The adversary knows all too well that a weak America will literally stop this building process and thwart the work of God.

Fifty-six men represented 2.5 million in 1776 to bring about a new nation that has literally blessed the whole world. That was one man to every 45,000. Today I’m calling on each of you to exert an influence over about 220 million people in this land. The odds are even better for you; the advantage is on your side. This is the time for you to be bold enough to stand up for what you believe, to let the world know that God still blesses this great land of America—if we will live righteously, according to that which he has commanded.

This land, *IS* the land of Liberty to the Gentiles.


2 Ne. 1: 7
7 Wherefore, this land is consecrated unto him whom he shall bring. And if it so be that they shall serve him according to the commandments which he hath given, it shall be a land of liberty unto them; wherefore, they shall never be brought down into captivity; if so, it shall be because of iniquity; for if iniquity shall abound cursed shall be the land for their sakes, but unto the righteous it shall be blessed forever.

2 Ne. 10: 11
11 And this land shall be a land of liberty unto the Gentiles, and there shall be no kings upon the land, who shall raise up unto the Gentiles.


Here in Missouri it hardly snows. It is very good weather most of the year, except July and August can get unbearably hot.

Adam-Ondi-Ahman has a plaque that talks about a Nephite tower.

I think that history repeats itself. It Adam-Ondi-Ahman is where Adam dwelt in the past and is a sacred place in the future, I think that there were other events there as well.

[livy111us]

Trust me. To point out leaders positions will only make one chase his tail. They varied from a Hemispheric geography, to a S American, to C American, to N American. Anyone can take a past leaders quote and use it for their advantage.

Apostle at the time and later Prophet, John Taylor said that Joseph Smith was "one of the greatest men that ever lived on the earth; emphatically proved so, by being inspired by God to bring forth the Book of Mormon, which gives the true history of the natives of this continent; their ancient glory and cities:—which cities have been discovered by Mr Ste[ph]ens in Central America, exactly where the Book of Mormon left them." The Mormon Prophet," Times and Seasons (1 April 1845)

An interesting article from the Assistant to the Twelve who shows Spencer W Kimball a Prophet by showing his prophecies of the "lamanites" to be fulfilled in Central America http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?v ... &hideNav=1

Taken from President Kimballs talk "Of Royal Blood". He says "The term Lamanite includes all Indians and Indian mixtures, such as the Polynesians, the Guatemalans, the Peruvians, as well as the Sioux, the Apache, the Mohawk, the Navajo, and others. It is a large group of great people" Spencer W. Kimball, “Of Royal Blood,” Ensign, Jul 1971, 7

There are PLENTY of quotes that support my position, but as I said before, there is no revealed doctrine on the subject, and you'd only be taking their opinion on the subject. In case you don't believe me, here are a few quotes which say just that:

In the words of the Apostle Mark Peterson "…we all have our free agency. God doesn’t rob anyone of that. And sometimes even a General Authority has used his agency in a wrong direction…Now, a General Authority might speculate, I suppose. We have had speculation, for instance, on the part of some with respect to Book of Mormon geography, and it is plain, unadulterated speculation and not doctrine. And if a General Authority has speculated on Book of Mormon geography he did not represent the view of the Church while doing so" Mark E. Petersen, “Revelation,” address to religious educators, 24 August 1954

President Harold B Lee said "Some say the Hill Cumorah was in southern Mexico (and someone pushed it down still farther) and not in western New York. Well, if the Lord wanted us to know where it was, or where Zarahemla was, he’d have given us latitude and longitude, don’t you think? And why bother our heads trying to discover with archaelogical certainty the geographical locations of the cities of the Book of Mormon like Zarahemla?" “Loyalty,” address to religious educators, 8 July 1966


Apostle John A Widstoe "As far as can be learned, the Prophet Joseph Smith, translator of the book, did not say where, on the American continent, Book of Mormon activities occurred. Perhaps he did not know. However, certain facts and traditions of varying reliability are used as foundation guides by students of Book of Mormon geography" (foreword to Thomas Stuart Ferguson's Cumorah—Where? )


So, either we must accept that our inspired leaders are so confused on the subject that they contradict each other, or, as has been pointed out throughout the Church, there is no revealed doctrine on the geography of The Book of Mormon (and those who claim there is, is saying they know more than our Prophets and Apostles over the last nearly 200 years) and they are only stating what they believe to be true, have been taught as they learned the Gospel, or have just plain assumed.


If you want to look at what the Book of Mormon says, that is fine. I would like to discuss the issue. But it is not supportable that there is a doctrine on geography.

[livy111us]

BTW, I'm at work until Wednesday, and then will be at the FAIR conference Thurs and Friday, back to work Sat and Sunday (I know, I wish I didn't have to work this Sunday). If I don't respond for a while, that is where I'll be. I'll respond as soon as I can, or if I get a minute.

[Proud 2b Peculiar]

What I am saying is that the BOM itself tells us the characteristics of the land that they are speaking of in the Latter days. There is no other land of liberty like this land.

The Lord speaks of it in the D&C.

And as I mentioned, I believe that it covered the Americas, just like the BOM says it does. However, the promises are for America. That is why Columbus came here, why the Constitution was created for this nation, why the gospel was restored here, because this is the place, this is the land of the Book of Mormon that has all the promises, the responsibility etc.

No one has to agree with me, and it may take science awhile to catch up. I know it, because it is in the scriptures. And we are the gentiles. Those in Central and South America and Mexico are referred to as Lamanites. And they are blossoming in the gospel just as our scriptures said they would.

This land is the headquarters of the restoration, the fullness of the gospel, it is this land that the BOM speaks of, as well as the D&C.

[livy111us]

It is interesting, and also an evidence of The Book of Mormon, that in Nephi it speaks of columbus discovering the Americas. "separated from the seed of my brethren by the many waters," and saw that the Spirit of God "came down and wrought upon the man; and he went forth upon the many waters, even unto the seed of my brethren, who were in the Promised Land" (1 Ne. 13:12). Speaking of Isaiah 11:10-12, he said ". . . for the execution of the journey to the Indies I was not aided by intelligence, by mathematics or by maps. It was simply the fulfillment of what Isaiah had prophesied" ( Brigham, Kay 1990 Christopher Columbus: His Life and Discovery in the Light of His Prophecies. 1991:182).

"Our Lord made me the messenger of the new heaven and the new earth, of which he spoke in the Book of Revelation by St. John, after having spoken of it by the mouth of Isaiah; and he showed me the place where to find it" (Brigham 1990:50)
He truly felt "inspired" and led by the Spirit of God to the Americas, something necessary for the restoration. The land he discovered is called the "Promised land". It's the same land of Promise that "the seed of my brethren; and they were scattered before the Gentiles and were smitten." The Gentiles over ran the land of Promise.
But did you know that Columbus never set foot on North America? The closest he ever got to North America (modern US) was Cuba? He did however, land in Central America, and South America.
So when the scriptures are looked at a little more closely, they speak not of an American setting, but a Mesoamerican setting.


Like I said LoveChrist, everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I just want to show you that it is not as black and white as Meldrum would want you to believe. If we are to be honest in our studies, we need to look at the broader picture. His DNA evidence does not hold up, his theory on JS beliefs do not hold up, his archaeological evidence does not hold up, etc... Deceiving people does not help the Church or it's members out one bit. If there is evidence, then it needs to be scrutinized and evaluated to see if it holds up. If not, then it should be discarded. That is the best we can do until the Lord sees fit to reveal it to us (but I don't think He will do that).
Again, I don't want to be in an argument, but want to share ideas. Perhaps you have better theories than Meldrum that can be supported. If at all you think/feel the spirit of contention creeping in, I'll be the first to drop it. It would be pointless to discuss ideas if the Spirit is not with us.

[Proud 2b Peculiar]

I don't know who Meldrum is....

I read the Scriptures and I have studied some of Wayne May's stuff.

[livy111us]

Kudos for coming up with that yourself. I assumed that you watched a DVD that contains many errors in it and then subscribed to the theory. My apologies.

[Proud 2b Peculiar]

I know that people keep mentioning that name, but I have not felt compelled to find out more about it yet. I guess I am involved in other things right now, and I still have 3 books on my shelf from Wayne May that I have not finished reading yet. However, I was sent some DVD's that were not available at the time, and I don't know if they are available yet to others or not by a friend of mine, whose brother in law was at these seminars.

Has anyone else on here ever gone to one of Wayne Mays seminars, or looked at his work or read his books?

I know this is going to sound different on a DNA thread, but I know what I do by the spirit. There are some awesome details that you can learn about the world from the BOM, and sometimes, they just leap out at me, like what I posted much earlier about the earth, and how it was prior to Christ's crucifixion. But, I only feel the way I do, because I accept the BOM as the word of God, and that it is 100% true. I also read it last year and then right after read the D&C and the Pearl of Great Price, and the picture just formed.

[livy111us]

I've read his material, but have come to a different conclusion. Until it is revealed, we can only conjecture.

[Proud 2b Peculiar]

Of course. Out of curiosity, what do you think about the Hopewell mounds? And the area where the Waters of Mormon are suggested as being? Living here in Missouri, I have been able to go to some of these places, and I hope to go to the burial mounds as well.

Also, the Natives that are familiar with what he is teaching, what is your perspective on that?

I thought it was cool how the Jaredites came in boats that were tight like a dish and some native Americans teach that they arrived on this land by giant clams.

[livy111us]

I think the mounds are great works of art, but aren't connected to the BOM. In The Book of Mormon, it speaks of of mounds of earth as a fortification, not decoration.

Alma 50:1-2 reads:
1 And now it came to pass that Moroni did not stop making preparations for war, or to defend his people against the Lamanites; for he caused that his armies should commence in the commencement of the twentieth year of the reign of the judges, that they should commence in digging up heaps of earth round about all the cities, throughout all the land which was possessed by the Nephites.
2 And upon the top of these ridges of earth he caused that there should be timbers, yea, works of timbers built up to the height of a man, round about the cities.

Alma 53:5:
by the orders of Moroni, caused that they should commence laboring in digging a ditch round about the land, or the city, Bountiful.
4 And he caused that they should build a breastwork of timbers upon the inner bank of the ditch; and they cast up dirt out of the ditch against the breastwork of timbers;


Alma 49:18:
18 Now behold, the Lamanites could not get into their forts of security by any other way save by the entrance, because of the highness of the bank which had been thrown up, and the depth of the ditch which had been dug round about, save it were by the entrance.

One non-LDS scholar wrote of the Maya "To throw 'uphill' from the outside is almost impossible. Defenders, possibly screened by a palisade, could have rained long-distance missiles on approaching enemies using spearthrowers and slings." (David L. Webster, Defensive Earthworks at Becan, Campeche, Mexico: Implications for Mayan Warfare , Tulane University, Middle American Research Institute, Publication 41, 1976, p. 108
http://mayaruins.com/becan/aerial1.html

It is also interesting that there were "timbers", just as The Book of Mormon says, built onto these fortifications.

Here are some pictures from non-LDS:
http://mayaruins.com/becan/aerial1.html

Notice the caption underneath: "The earthworks discovered by Ruppert and Denison in 1934 represent massive fortifications erected during the Early Classic period, possibly in response to political inbalances caused by an intrusion of foreign elements from the central Mexican highlands...The fortifications of Becan represent the earliest clearcut evidence for large-scale military activity in the lowlands."

Webster, Defensive Earthworks at Becán, p. 3



We can also find traditions of Jesus Christ visiting the Maya, BOM culture and worship, Biblical traditions, etc... in the Maya as well.

Thomas W. Brookbank (Imp. Era 14:983-988) shows that the measurements of ruins that
the measurements of ruins in central America, when expressed in cubits (21.888 inches) and its
divisions (digits) can be expressed in multiples of five digits. He gives a number of
measurements to show that the cubit-digit system must have been use by them. The cubit was the
ordinary unit of length among the Hebrews.

They even practiced infant baptism. This is interesting because in Moroni chapter 8, that is the very thing that is being denounced.
I'll post some notes I've taken with some interesting parallels between the BOM and Mesoamerica, but first let me tell you what I believe. I believe the two theories (Mesoamerica and North America) are compatible to a point. I believe the BOM mainly took place in S. Mexico, N. Guatamala. But we have several instances in Alma alone, of a mass migration northward. Tens of thousands of Nephites got in boats and went North from their home to some unknown land. On top of that, we also have several land migrations Northward. Archaeology tells us of migrations from Mesoamerica to Arizona, New Mexico, up the Mississippi, even up to Ohio, where you and others believe where it took place. Alma 63:4-9 recounts the migration of “five thousand and four hundred men, with their wives and their children, departed out of the land of Zarahemla into the land which was northward“. In that same year, Hagoth built a “large ship” and sailed “into the land northward.” That ship returned and was filled again, as well as many “other” ships that were built and again sailed “northward.” In the thirty-ninth year, another ship sailed northward carrying provisions to those who had previously left, and did not return.
Just in that short time period, we have tens of thousands of people migrating “northward”. It is also interesting to note that we have been finding Mesoamerican artifacts, buildings, and beliefs “northward” of Mesoamerica. There seems to have been a migration from the Maya, up the Mississippi.

Joseph Smith also identified a mans bones as being "Zelph" who served under the prophet "Onandugus" who was known from the Rocky Mountains to the Atlantic Ocean. So we know that there were *some* Nephites in the area, the BOM speaks about migrations northward, and archaeology says there was a northward migration as well. “Why were the prominent chieftain Zelph and the great Prophet Onandagus, who was known from the eastern sea to the Rocky Mountains, not mentioned at all in the Book of Mormon? Surely a prophet of such prominence would have received some notice had he been known to the historians of the Book of Mormon. Some use this as evidence of the BOM happening in North America, but I believe in context of the evidence, it concurs with a northward migration. One scholar wrote of Zelph and Onandugus.

"The answer is very obvious:—Because the Book of Mormon historians who were down in Central America, knew nothing at all of either the Prophet Onandagus or [of] the Chieftain Zelph. It was more than 400 years before Mormon's time that Hagoth sailed north, and we only have a report of the first ship returning. . . . Naturally, both Mormon and Moroni were too far removed from Onandagus and Zelph to report them.” ((Norman C. Pierce, Another Cumorah: Another Joseph (n.p.: Pierce, 1954), 35–36.))

Apostle John A. Widstoe wrote:
Zelph could very well have been a descendant of Lehi and served under the Prophet Ondandugus, it we remember to keep all the northward migrations in mind. Apostle John A. Widtsoe said "This [Zelph] is not of much value in Book of Mormon geographical studies, since Zelph probably dated from a later time when Nephites and Lamanites had been somewhat dispersed and had wandered over the country
(("Is Book of Mormon Geography Known?" Improvement Era, July 1950, 547.))

Anyway, that is my pet theory.

[jbalm]

Joseph Smith also identified a mans bones as being "Zelph" who served under the prophet "Onandugus" who was known from the Rocky Mountains to the Atlantic Ocean. So we know that there were *some* Nephites in the area,

Just one nitpick...wasn't "Zelph" actually described as a "white Lamanite?"

[livy111us]

Depending on which version you read. But the most popular, yes.