DNA Evidence for BofM Geography

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WhisperFox
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DNA Evidence for BofM Geography

Post by WhisperFox »

I watch Rod Meldrum's presentation "DNA Evidences for Book of Mormon Geography", for the third time last night.

It's almost 4 hours long and well worth the investment in time.

Basic premises:

1. DNA evidence documents a link between Middle Eastern and American Indian DNA

2. Joseph Smith knew and taught the truth.

3. The Book of Mormon provides the clues to locate basic regions.

4. Christ appeared to more than one location after His resurrection.

This definitely does not do justice to this subject.
It may peak your curiosity and answer a few basic questions.

Here are links to the complete 4 hour DVD presentation. http://bookofmormonevidence.org/shop.php

Questions and Answers: http://bookofmormonevidence.org/FAQ.php

I found no copyright warning or notice within the DVD and hope posting this doesn’t infringe on such. I will delete these if I find that Brother Meldrum wishes though I would hope he is more concerned in getting the truth out than in financial gain.

Slides

DNA http://www.redhotlogo.com/DNA1.htm

General Locations http://www.redhotlogo.com/DNALOCATION1.htm

What did Joseph Smith say?http://www.redhotlogo.com/DNAJSKNEW.htm


Implements http://www.redhotlogo.com/DNAnephiteImplements.htm

DNA specific location speculation
http://www.redhotlogo.com/DNAspeculation.htm

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BroJones
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Re: DNA Evidence for BofM Geography

Post by BroJones »

Bringing the discussion on Rod Meldrum's research here, to build on Whisperfox's excellent work!

Back to the important topic of DNA and the Bk of Mormon --

A small group spoke to Ron Meldrum (made a video on the topic) last evening in Murray, UT. I was there -- about 3 hours! Very interesting fellow, and I'm more and more persuaded that he has an important message: Haploid group X occurs in North American Indian genes and in Israel/Middle East -- but has NOT been found in the Maya or other Mesoamerican groups.

The fact that DNA markers suggesting a link to the Middle East HAVE been found is more important IMO than worrying about a specific geographical location for the Bk of Mormon (but the two issues are related).

He noted from the anti-Mormon video on the topic that this DNA/BkOfM issue is taking a toll on people, and yet the facts to counter this dis-information (that there is "no link" and that DNA disproves the Bk) is published in scientific journals. He suggests the guys at FARMS are so wedded to a Mesoamerican geography that they are not appreciating the new evidence (DNA in North American Indian genes). Recall that the wording in the Intro to the Bk was changed recently to reflect broader thinking on where the Lamanites / Lehites were located.

I know from earlier discussions that several of you highly respect Rod's research... I respect it also, more and more.

Can we help out?

Yes -- the weakest areas need to be addressed first. Identified above -- weakest point seems to be the river Sidon, which in the Bk has its "head" or AFAIK beginning waters near Manti, which is on the southern end of Nephite lands. Zarahemla on one bank... Hence the notion that Sidon flows north, also posted in the index to the Bk... All related scriptures AND explanations would help out here. Rod points to the Mississippi river in his geography, which flows south.

The DNA / Bk of Mormon issue is one we can win and thus help the missionary effort greatly! But we need to overcome some pre-conceived notions...

Any other ideas related to "how to help" would be welcomed. I think Rod will monitor this discussion.

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SwissMrs&Pitchfire
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Re: DNA Evidence for BofM Geography

Post by SwissMrs&Pitchfire »

DISCOURSE by Elder Orson Pratt, delivered in the

Old Tabernacle, Salt Lake City, Sunday, Dec. 27, 1868

(REPORTED BY DAVID W. EVANS.)

12:338

In ancient times there were certain great decrees which the Lord of all the earth made concerning this Continent and the inhabitants that should, from time to time, possess the same. This Continent was first settled, after the Flood, by a colony from the Tower of Babel, who were a righteous people. They were a people with whom God conversed, and to whom He made Himself manifest in a very wonderful and marvellous manner. How many people lived here before the Flood is not for me to say, as it is not revealed. We may, however, observe, that so far as new revelation has given us information on this subject, this Continent of ours may be ranked among the first lands occupied by the human family. The very first man who had dominion on the face of the earth, under the direction of the Heavens, once dwelt on this Continent. His name was Adam. Whether his first residence was on this land, whether the garden that was planted for his occupation was on this Continent, or some other, is not revealed in any written or printed revelation. But he certainly did, in the course of his lifetime; either from this being his native land, or by emigration, actually come in possession of this part of the globe; and a large settlement was formed, and the righteous who lived before the flood inherited it, and no doubt left their blessing on the land. It was here where Adam, Seth, Enos, Cainan, Mahalaleel, Jared, Enoch, Methusaleh [Methuselah] and Noah dwelt. It was on this land where Noah built his ark, which was blown by the winds of Heaven away to the east, and landed on Ararat. It was here where Enoch preached and published glad tidings of great joy; it was on this land-the American Continent-where he gathered the people from many nations, and built up a city and called it Zion. It was here where the people of God flourished before the flood, and were of one heart and one mind, having an experience of some three hundred and sixty-five years in order to bring about a sufficient degree of righteousness and faith to be taken away from here and translated to some other region. It was here where Enoch was clothed upon with the power of God to that degree that he was enabled to publish to the inhabitants of the earth things that were before his day, even from before the foundation of the world, and also to prophecy of things that should transpire from his day down to the end of the world. It was here that he continued his preaching to the inhabitants of the city of Zion until he made them so acquainted with the law of God, and inspired them with such faith that the earth could not contain them. It was by his faith and the faith of his people that the very elements around him felt the power of God; and when he spake the word of the Lord the earth upon which he stood trembled and shook by the power of the Almighty, and the mountains fled from before his presence, and the great rivers of this Continent were turned out of their courses, and all things seemed to feel the power of the Lord. Even a new land came up out of the great deep, and so fearful were the enemies of the people of God, and so great was the terror of the Lord upon them, that they left this country and went forth upon the face of the waters and occupied the land that came up out of the deep. These things are not revealed to us by the Bible, or by tradition, but by the inspiration of the Almighty through that great modern prophet who was raised up to commence this marvellous work of which you and I are now partakers.

A few hundred years after all these things had transpired on this Continent, and Noah and his family, the only survivors of the Flood, had been wafted away to distant lands, and had peopled a portion of Asia, the descendants of Noah undertook to build a great tower that they might make themselves a great name, instead of fulfilling the purposes of the Almighty, in spreading forth, and occupying and subduing the earth. The Lord was very much displeased with them on that occasion, because of the wickedness that existed in their midst, which was calculated to be strengthened through their unity. Hence He made a decree, according to the old Book-the Bible, that they should not dwell thus, together. He confounded their language, and swore in His wrath that they should be scattered. A portion of the people from that tower came to this Continent.

There is something very remarkable in connection with the colonization of our Continent by people from that tower. I said they were a righteous people. Perhaps this may surprise some, especially if they have drawn the conclusion that all the people who engaged in building of that tower were wicked. But there were some few families among them who served the Lord their God, and when they learned the decree of Jehovah, that their language was to be confounded, and the people scattered to the four winds of heaven, they had considerable anxiety on the subject. They were anxious that they might be favored of the Lord and that He would lead them to a choice portion of the earth. They made it a subject of earnest prayer, and God heard them, and the language of the righteous portion of the people was not confounded. And God gave them a commandment to go down from the tower to a valley that was northward, called the valley of Nimrod, named after a mighty hunter who existed in those days. After they had come down into this valley by the command of the Lord they collected seeds and grain of every kind, and animals of almost every description, among which, no doubt, were the elephant and the curelom and the cumom, very huge animals that existed in those days, and after travelling and crossing, we suppose, the sea that was east of where the Tower of Babel stood, and travelling through the wilderness many days, with their flocks and herds, their grain and substance, they eventually came to the great Pacific ocean, on the eastern borders of China or somewhere in that region. They were commanded of the Lord to build vessels. They went to work and constructed eight barges. They did not understand the art of Navigation as we do in these days. They had no astronomical instruments by which they could ascertain the altitude of the sun, or the altitude of the moon and stars, by which they could determine their position on the great and mighty ocean. But the same God who had led them from the Tower of Babel and had gone before them in a bright cloud by day, and had hovered over their camp and had directed them in their journey through the wilderness, was their navigator in crossing the ocean. They entered these eight barges, about the construction of which it may be well to say a few words. A great many opposers of the Book of Mormon, in reading the account of these vessels, have really supposed that there was an insurmountable difficulty connected with the building of these barges because there happened to he a hole in the top, and another hole constructed in the bottom to enable the beings shut up in them to be watertight. These vessels were built, not in the form of a tea saucer as has been represented by some "anti-Mormons" in their discussions; but the Book of Mormon informs us that they were peaked at the ends, and enlarged as they came to the middle, and they were tight like a dish on the water, and were very light, like to the lightness of a fowl. They were exceedingly strong, and the length of a tree. This is a phrase very similar to one used by Isaiah who says, "the age of His people shall be as the age of a tree." Isaiah does not say what kind of a tree. It was simply a way the ancients had of comparing a great many things. Now these vessels were so constructed that when furious winds should blow upon the face of the great deep, and the waves should roll mountains high they could without imminent danger plunge beneath the waves, and be brought up again to the surface of the water during tremendous hurricanes and storms. Now to prepare them against these contingencies, and that they might have fresh air for the benefit of the elephants, cureloms or mammoths and many other animals, that perhaps were in them, as well as the human beings they contained, the Lord told them how to construct them in order to receive air, that when they were on the top of the water, which-ever side up their vessels happened to be, it mattered not; they were so constructed that they could ride safely, though bottom upwards and they could open their air holes that happened to be uppermost. Now all our ships at the present day are constructed with holes in the bottom as well as in the top. I have crossed the ocean twelve times, but I never saw a ship yet that did not have a hole in the bottom for the convenience of passengers, and it is one of the simplest things in the world to have holes in the bottom of a ship if you only have tubes running up sufficiently high above the general water mark. These were so constructed that when the waves were not running too high, air could be admitted through unstopping the holes which happened to be uppermost.

But the most wonderful thing concerning the first colonization of this country after the flood was the way that they navigated the great Pacific ocean. Only think for a few moments of the Lord our God taking eight barges, launched on the eastern coast of China, and bringing them a voyage of three hundred and forty-four days and landing them all in the same neighborhood and vicinity and at the same time. This was a miracle. This was not done by the aid of steam, or by the navigator's art, but it was by the power of the Almighty God. He it was who controlled these vessels; He it was who governed the winds of heaven; He it was who brought them up out of the midst of the deep, when they were swallowed up, and He it was who guided them safely to this American shore.

They landed to the south of this; just below the Gulf of California, on our western coast. They inhabited North America, and spread forth on this Continent, and in the course of some sixteen hundred years' residence here, they became a mighty and powerful nation. Although they became a great and mighty people, they were oftentimes very much chastened because of their sins. Here let me observe that before they arrived on this land the Lord said to them, "I design to lead you forth to a land that is choice above all other lands on the face of the whole earth; and this is my decree concerning the land which you are to occupy, that whatever nation shall possess the land from this time henceforth and forever shall serve me, the only true and living God, or they shall be swept off from the face thereof, when they are fully ripened in their iniquity." The Jaredites had this decree before them, before they set foot on this Continent. It was before them during the whole term of their existence here, that inasmuch as they would serve God they would be prospered, and inasmuch as they would not serve Him great judgments were upon them. Hence they were afflicted oftentimes because of their wickedness. On a certain occasion there were a very few individuals, Omer and his family and some few of his friends, that were righteous enough to be spared out of a whole nation. The Lord warned them by a dream to depart from the land of Moran, and led them forth in an easterly direction beyond the hill Cumorah, down into the eastern countries upon the sea shore. By this means a few families were saved, while all the balance, consisting of millions of people, were overthrown because of their wickedness. But after they were destroyed the Omerites, who dwelt in the New England States, returned again and dwelt in the land of their fathers on the western coast.

I merely mention these things to show how the Lord operated among the first nations of the old inhabitants of this country, in order to fulfill His decrees. They could not fall into wickedness, and still be suffered to prosper on the face of this land. The decree had gone forth, it must be fulfilled. Finally, some sixteen or seventeen centuries after they landed here, they became so violently wicked, and transgressed the commandments of the Lord to that degree that they were really swept off to a man. The whole nation perished. Their greatest and last struggles were in the State of New York, near where the plates from which the Book of Mormon was translated here found. There they fought day after day; there they struggled, one party against the other until millions were swept off. Only one man survived his nation for a very short space of time to see the fulfillment of a prophecy that was uttered by a great and mighty prophet that lived in those days, who stated that he should be permitted, after his nation was destroyed, to behold the colonization of the land by another people. This man, whose name was Coriantumr, King of a certain portion of the Jaredites, after the destruction of his nation, wandered, solitary and alone, down towards the Isthmus of Darien, and there he became acquainted with a colony of people brought from the land of Jerusalem, called the people of Zarahemla. He dwelt with them for the space of nine moons, and then he died.

After the destruction of the Jaredites, the Lord brought two other colonies to people this land. One colony landed a few hundred miles north of the Isthmus on the western coast; the other landed on the coast of Chili, upwards of two thousand miles south of them. The latter were called the Nephites and Lamanites. It was some four or five centuries after these two colonies came from Jerusalem and occupied the country before they amalgamated. A little over one century before Christ the Nephites united with the Zarahemlaites in the northern portions of South America, and were called Nephites and became a powerful nation. The country was called the land Bountiful, and included within the land of Zarahemla. But to go back to their early history. Shortly after the Nephite colony was brought by the power of God, and landed on the western coast of South America, in the country we call Chili, there was a great division among them. The righteous were threatened by the wicked who sought to destroy them. The Lord warned Nephi their leader, to flee from among the Lamanites, to depart for the safety of himself and his family and those that believed in the revelations of God. Nephi and the righteous separated themselves from the Lamanites and traveled about eighteen hundred miles north until they come to the head waters of what we term the Amazon river. There Nephi located his little colony in the country supposed to be Ecuador, a very high region, many large and elevated mountains being in that region.

Here the Nephites flourished for some length of time. The Lamanites followed then up and they had many wars and contentions, and finally the Lamanites succeeded in taking away their settlements, and the Nephites fled again some twenty days' journey to the northward and united themselves with the people of Zarahemla.

I mention these things in order to impress one particular item upon the minds of the Latter-day Saints concerning the inheritance or possession of this land. The Lord not only made decrees in the early ages with the first colonists that came here, but He renewed these decrees every time He brought a colony here, that the people should serve Him, or they should be cut off from His presence, and you will find that God, in every instance, has remembered these decrees. And there is one thing remarkable in relation to the history of these nations, and that is the rapidity with which they departed from the faith and righteousness and the love of the true God. Sometimes they would, after some great judgement or scourge had fallen upon them, causing the death of many of them, repent and become a righteous people; and God would bless them again, and they would begin to rise up and prosper in the land. But perhaps in the course of three or four years a people that were almost wholly righteous would turn from their righteousness to folly, sin and wickedness, and bring down another heavy judgment on their heads. And thus generation after generation passed away among the former inhabitants of this land, and they had their ups and downs. Every time the majority of the people transgressed, a tremendous judgment would come upon them; and every time they repented before the Lord with all their hearts, He would turn away His wrath and begin to prosper them.

Now, these same decrees, which God made in relation to the former nations that inhabited this country, extend to us. "Whatever nation," the Lord said, "shall possess this land, from this time henceforth and forever, shall serve the only true and living God, or they shall be swept off when the fullness of His wrath shall come upon them." Since this ancient decree there are many nations who have come here. And lastly Europeans have come from what is termed the old world across the Atlantic. And lately the Chinese are beginning to come across the Pacific, and this continent is becoming extensively peopled. Many millions are already upon it. They have constructed many great and populous cities and have become very powerful on the face of the land; but they are nothing compared with the numerous hosts of the Jaredites that once spread over all the face of North America. But yet they are numerous, and are considered one of the most powerful nations on the face of the whole earth; and their resources are very great, and the prosperity which attended our forefathers in establishing settlements on the face of this land, in establishing a free government, with freedom of the press and religious worship, was very great.

They imagine to themselves that this prosperity is to continue for ever, that there is to be no end to their greatness. Now I can tell them, as I have told them ever since I was a boy, their greatness will not protect them; their present prosperity will not protect them. There is only one one thing that will protect the nations that inhabit North and South America, and that is to turn to the Lord their God with all their hearts, minds and strength, and serve Him with full purpose of heart, and cease from all their wickedness. That will protect them. If they will do this they will spread forth and become ten times stronger and more powerful than they have ever been, and the Lord their God will bless them more abundantly than hitherto. But on the other hand if they will not do these things the decree that was made in ancient times is just as certain to be fulfilled as the sun shines in yonder heavens

We have seen, in a very small degree, the chastisement of the Almighty upon the present powerful nation of which we form a part. Great has been their chastisement in some respects; but in other respects they hardly seem to feel it. But still look at the desolation that certain portions of our fair country have had to endure by the depredations of hostile armies one against another. Tens of thousands rolling in the dust in their blood; whole towns and cities laid waste, and the country for hundreds and hundreds of miles, as it were, in perfect desolation. Railroads that cost millions torn up, cars and merchandise destroyed, and the whole country involved in a debt that perhaps will require a lapse of many years before much more than the interest on it is paid, and for which severe taxation must be imposed on all the inhabitants of the land. And, when we include both the North and the South, perhaps two or three millions of lives have been lost; if not altogether lost by the weapons of war in battle, they have perished in consequence of the difficulties and afflictions that generally attend armies.

This great war is only a small degree of chastisement, just the beginning; nothing compared to that which God has spoken concerning this nation, if they will not repent. For the Lord has said in this book, (the Book of Mormon) which has been published for thirty eight years, that if they will not repent He will throw down all their strongholds and cut off the cities of the land, and will execute vengeance and fury on the nation, even as upon the heathen, such as they have not heard. That He will send a desolating scourge on the land; that He will leave their cities desolate, without inhabitants. For instance the great, powerful and populous city of New York, that may be considered one of the greatest cities of the world, will in a few years become a mass of ruins. The people will wonder while gazing on the ruins that cost hundreds of millions to build, what has become of its inhabitants. Their houses will be there, but they will be left desolate. So saith the Lord God. That will be only a sample of numerous other towns and cities on the face of this continent.

Now I am aware that it is almost impossible for even some of the Latter-day Saints to get that confidence and that strong faith in the events which God intends to accomplish on this land in the future to believe in such a thing, to say nothing about outsiders, that do not believe a word of it. Outsiders do not believe it any more than they believed me when I was a boy and took that revelation which was given in 1832, and carried it forth among many towns and cities and told them there was to be a great and terrible war between the North and the South, and read to them the revelation. Did they believe it? Would they consider that there was any truth in it? Not in the least, "that is a Mormon humbug" they would say. "What! this great and powerful nation of ours to be divided one part against the other and many hundreds of thousands of souls to be destroyed by civil wars!" Not a word of it would they believe. They do not believe what is still in the future. But there are some in this congregation who will live, to behold the fulfillment of these other things, and will visit the ruins of mighty towns and cities scattered over the face of this land destitute and desolate of inhabitants. If inquiry shall then be made, why such great destruction? the answer will be, wickedness has destroyed them. Wickedness and corruption have brought about the fulfillment of the ancient decrees of Heaven concerning this land. Wickedness and corruption have brought desolation into their towns and cities. The time will come when there will be no safety in carrying on the peaceable pursuits of farming or agriculture. But these will be neglected, and the people will think themselves well off if they can flee from city to city, from town to town and escape with their lives. Thus will the Lord visit the people, if they will not repent. Thus will He pour out His wrath and indignation upon them and make manifest to the people that that which he has spoken must be fulfilled.

But what shall become of this people? Shall we be swept off in the general ruin? Shall desolation come upon us? Shall we feel the chastening hand of the Almighty like those who will not repent? That will depend altogether upon our conduct. We have it within our power; God has granted it to us, to save ourselves from the desolation and calamities that will come upon the nation. How? By doing that which is right; by living honest before God and all men; by seeking after that righteousness that comes through the Gospel of the Son of God; by following after the law of Heaven; by doing unto others as we would have others do unto us; by putting away all the evils and abominations that are practiced by the wicked. If we do this prosperity will be upon the inhabitants of Utah; prosperity will be upon the towns and cities erected by this people, the hand of the Lord will be over us to sustain us, and we will spread forth. He will multiply us in the land; He will make us a great people, and strengthen our borders, and send forth the missionaries of this people to the four quarters of the earth to publish peace and glad tidings of great joy, and proclaim that there is still a place left in the heart of the American continent where there are peace and safety and refuge from the storms, desolations and tribulations coming upon the wicked. But on the other hand, Latter-day Saints, how great are the responsibilities resting upon us and upon our rising generations. If we will not keep the commandments of God, and if our rising generations will not give heed to the law of God and to the great light which has shone from Heaven in these latter days, but turn their hearts from the Lord their God and from the counsels of His priesthood, then we shall be visited like the wicked, then we shall have the hand of the Lord upon us in judgment; then that saying that the Lord has delivered in the Book of Doctrines and Covenants will be fulfilled upon us, "that I will visit Zion, if she does not do right, with sore afflictions, with pestilence, with sword, with famine and with the flame of devouring fire."

Now here we have the choice. It is within our reach; we can put forth our hand after prosperity, peace and the extension of our borders, and have all these things multiplied upon us, and the power of God within us; His arm to encircle round about to protect us from every harm and evil. And on the other hand we can reach forth the hand and partake of wickedness and bring desolation and destruction upon our borders. Which shall we do? We are agents; we are left to our own choice. God has said that He would plead with His people. I expect that He will. "I will plead," saith the Lord, "with the strong ones of Zion until she overcomes and is clear before me." There is some consolation in reading this declaration of the Lord. Though we have to receive great chastisement, though He has to plead with us by judgment, tribulation, famine, by the sword and by the vengeance of devouring fire, yet after all, when He has afflicted this people sufficiently, there will be some few that will be spared and will become clean before the Lord.

It is quite a consolation to read that the armies of Israel will eventually become sanctified, and as clear as the sun, as fair as the moon, and that their banners will become terrible to the nations of the wicked. Yet we may have to pass through, by our own wickedness, many calamities that may overtake us. I hope not; but I do not know. I may say that my hopes are strengthened in regard to this matter, for what do I behold here in this Territory? I behold a people that have been willing to sacrifice all that they have for the sake of the Gospel; that have been willing to forsake their native kingdoms and countries and to journey by sea and by land to come here to serve God. I see a people, the majority of whom are willing to give heed to the counsels of the servants of God that are in their midst. Hence I look for peace and prosperity, hence I look for the arm of the Lord to be extended in behalf of this people so long as there is a majority of them who desire to do right, so long as there is a majority who feel to unite their hearts to carry out the great principles of eternal truth and righteousness that have been revealed. So long will the Heavens be propitious, and we shall find favor in the sight of the Most High. But remember the inhabitants who once dwelt on the land; remember their afflictions and their calamities; remember that judgments were poured out upon them because they would not be obedient. Let them be an everlasting lesson to us who live in these latter times. Let us serve God and we shall be blest, we shall prosper if we keep His commandments. Amen.

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BroJones
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Re: DNA Evidence for BofM Geography

Post by BroJones »

Thank you, SMP -- Orson Pratt's views are interesting. At the same time, I'm looking for the region around Zarahemla where most of the BoM takes place, from internal pointers in the BoM as well as from archaeological and DNA evidences. The DNA research is new...

The Jaredites might very well show Asian DNA markers, which are indeed ubiquitous apparently in No and So America, and Central. Lehi's group from the Middle East would be expected to show Haploid group X markers, and that is found -- as shown here (thanks to Whisperfox):

DNA http://www.redhotlogo.com/DNA1.htm

General Locations http://www.redhotlogo.com/DNALOCATION1.htm

What do you think?

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jbalm
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Re: DNA Evidence for BofM Geography

Post by jbalm »

Lehi's group from the Middle East would be expected to show Haploid group X markers, and that is found -- as shown here (thanks to Whisperfox):
I'm probably getting in way over my head disagreeing with a scientist on this issue but here goes.

It's my understanding, based on the DNA studies, that the presence of BOM peoples in the Americas cannot be disproved. However, DNA cannot be used to prove their presence either.

The Haploid X gene marker could have originated from the areas of Finland, Italy, and/or Israel, but not everyone from those areas (not even a majority if I understand correctly) would have said marker. So, I'm not sure its accurate to say that Lehi would be expected to have the Haploid X marker. It would be accurate to say that he could have had it. We really have no idea what Lehi's DNA looked like. (Actually, mitochondrial DNA is only passed on through the x chromosome, so I guess we would be more concerned about what the DNA of Sariah and the daughters of Ishmael looked like.)

Problems with using DNA to try to prove the BOM can be problematic, if not impossible. For instance, the presence of the Haploid X marker in the American Northeast could be just as indicative of a viking presence (Finland) in the new world as an Israeli presence.

It should be noted that the Haploid X marker was also found in Asia, but the experts seem pretty certain that the Asian group was not the source of the marker's presence in the Americas.

Another problem with using DNA to prove the BOM is that the origin of the Haplogroup X marker has been determined to be around 10,000 B.C. Long before the Jaredites and even longer before the Lehites and Mulekites.

Anyway, I'm wondering if we are expecting to draw too many conclusions from the DNA data that we have. I know the anti-mormons were hoping to use the DNA evidence to prove the BOM false. That failed. Isn't anything beyond that speculative?

By the way, there is a Jeff Meldrum that writes papers on DNA and the BOM for FARMS. I wonder if they're related.
He noted from the anti-Mormon video on the topic that this DNA/BkOfM issue is taking a toll on people, and yet the facts to counter this dis-information (that there is "no link" and that DNA disproves the Bk) is published in scientific journals.
Its sad. One shouldn't base their testimony on science. Scientific paradigms change so frequently.

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BroJones
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Re: DNA Evidence for BofM Geography

Post by BroJones »

Jbalm -- I respect your opinions, but don't understand this: " I know the anti-mormons were hoping to use the DNA evidence to prove the BOM false. That failed."

Why do you say "that failed"? To you, do you mean? or to the general public? I don't think the effort failed to the general public and it seems to be on-going.

I do not expect to "prove" the BoM true using DNA evidence. But I think the finding of Haplogroup X in the midwest is CONSISTENT with the BoM (allowing for broad error in the date of X arrival -- the marker is present in the native population , contrary to the anti-Mormon argument.) How was the date-of-arrival of Haplo-X in the midwest determined -- and is this reliable?

I also have information regarding C-14 dating of HORSE bones in the Americas.
I led a project for this study, and we submitted about 35 Equus bones for C-14 analysis, mostly from Mesoamerica. We found two that are clearly in the 5000BP - 500 BP (Before present) time frame, and Univ of Wyoming published a report on one other. ALL THREE OF THE 5000-500 BP BONES ARE FROM NORTH AMERICA (Wyoming, Texas and Colorado), NONE FROM MESOAMERICA. I find that interesting. No, we have not yet published the results on the two findings. Details available on request, next wk as I have time...

The Equus results are also CONSISTENT with the BoM (and inconsistent with anti views) -- if the BoM people of and around Zarahemla lived in North America. I find my paradigm changing based on new evidence -- and admit that the Equus findings did not sway me until recently, because I expected to find pre-Columbian horse also in Mesoamerica... but after dozens of tries, no such Mesoamerican Equus has appeared...

The news of horses in North America well before Columbus, coupled with DNA findings is noteworthy, IMO.

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Re: DNA Evidence for BofM Geography

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The general location of the Haploid group X in No America (and in Middle East and Finland) is depicted in this set of slides:


http://www.redhotlogo.com/DNA1.htm

I'm asking for a bit of help here -- if anyone knows of "ancient" or possibly pre-1492 Equus bone samples from this general area, I would be VERY interested in learning about this. Perhaps at a museum or University in the area? Then I would follow up and offer to do the C-14 dating at my expense... I'm very intrigued by this line of research...

PS -- why would the same unusual Haplogroup show up in the Middle East (esp. Israel) AND in Finland... unless some "tribes" migrated north into Finland...?

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Re: DNA Evidence for BofM Geography

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I respect your opinions, but don't understand this: " I know the anti-mormons were hoping to use the DNA evidence to prove the BOM false. That failed."
You're right, I didn't lay a very good foundation for this point. It seems that some anti-mormons had latched onto a bit of LDS folklore (that I consider to be incorrect) that ALL native Americans were descended from Lehi. They were hoping that the DNA would agree with the commonly held belief (non-mormon) that the primary ancestors of the native Americans were Asian.

The anti-mormon position failed for two reasons: First, the Book of Mormon, despite the beliefs of many, never said that Lehi and his group were the only occupants of the Americas during his time. Second, after the Haploid X marker was discovered in some native Americans, it opened the doorway for the possibility (a strong one, IMO) that some of the native Americans' ancestors were from the Middle East.

That's what I meant by my statement that in this instance the anti-mormons failed. Of course, that doesn't mean they will admit defeat.
I don't think the effort failed to the general public and it seems to be on-going.
I agree with this statement. The correct information is available, but getting people to read it is another problem.
I do not expect to "prove" the BoM true using DNA evidence. But I think the finding of Haplogroup X in the midwest is CONSISTENT with the BoM (allowing for broad error in the date of X arrival -- the marker is present in the native population , contrary to the anti-Mormon argument.)
In that case, I apologize for misunderstanding your position.
How was the date-of-arrival of Haplo-X in the midwest determined -- and is this reliable?
I honestly don't know.
I also have information regarding C-14 dating of HORSE bones in the Americas. I led a project for this study, and we submitted about 35 Equus bones for C-14 analysis, mostly from Mesoamerica. We found two that are clearly in the 5000BP - 500 BP (Before present) time frame, and Univ of Wyoming published a report on one other. ALL THREE OF THE 5000-500 BP BONES ARE FROM NORTH AMERICA (Wyoming, Texas and Colorado), NONE FROM MESOAMERICA. I find that interesting. No, we have not yet published the results on the two findings. Details available on request, next wk as I have time...
I find this very interesting. Evidence of pre-Columbian horses anywhere in North or South America, due to the migratory nature of horses, is supportive of the BOM. Actually, you probably don't know this, but I was aware that you were working on this and have been anxiously awaiting your findings.

By the way, I believe I have read some reports about pre-Columbian horse remains found in the Yucatan peninsula. I will look for verification and will post it if found.
I find my paradigm changing based on new evidence --
New evidence that supports the BOM is exciting. My opinion is that too many inferences drawn from that evidence could be counterproductive. By that I mean, its possible to create a new paradigm that some years down the road is shattered by yet another new discovery. That's really what archeology is about--new discoveries by which notions of history are either confirmed or reevaluated.

Regarding your latest findings, I think it has huge implications. The notion that no modern horses existed in the Americas prior to Columbus may well be officially on its way to the trash bin. This is a huge plus for the BOM, and a huge blow to the naysayers.

Right now, I still stick with the Mesoamerican theory, not because I'm married to it or anything, but so far, it presents the fewest problems. I will gladly favor another theory that seems to be stronger, however.

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Re: DNA Evidence for BofM Geography

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Another issue, besides the river Sidon, that needs to be addressed with Meldrum's theory is the location of Cumorah relative to the narrow neck of land.

As we know, the Nephite/Lamanite Cumorah is the same as the Jaredite Ramah. It appears that Cumorah was located north of the narrow neck in, or in the vicinity of the land of Desolation. This is referenced in Alma 22:
30 And it bordered upon the land which they called Desolation, it being so far northward that it came into the land which had been peopled and been destroyed, of whose bones we have spoken, which was discovered by the people of Zarahemla, it being the place of their first landing.
31 And they came from there up into the south wilderness. Thus the land on the northward was called Desolation, and the land on the southward was called Bountiful, it being the wilderness which is filled with all manner of wild animals of every kind, a part of which had come from the land northward for food.
It appears to me that Meldrum asserts that the narrow neck of land is between lakes Erie and Ontario. In this scenario, where he uses the hill where Joseph found the plates as Cumorah, it places Cumorah southward of the narrow neck.

ETA: As I look at the verses above, another issue came to mind. The first landing being referenced is that of the Mulekites. According to Meldrum's theory about the position of Cumorah and the narrow neck of land, the Mulekites would have left Jerusalem and made their first landing somewhere on the western shore of Lake Ontario. Then they would have sailed a bit further southward to a land much more bounteous than that of their first landing. I know that this isn't likely. My question is, is it even possible?

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Re: DNA Evidence for BofM Geography

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JBalm -- thank you for your posts; like this: "That's really what archeology is about--new discoveries by which notions of history are either confirmed or reevaluated."

Exactly -- and that applies to ancient horses in the Americas as well as "archaeology" applied to artifacts from the 9/11 destructions as well (i.e., what we're learning from the WTC dust).

Will have to give your "location of Cumorah" and the initial landing site some thought -- thanks. And horses in the Yucatan -- there was some preliminary information on that, and I went after and obtained some Equus samples from the area, but those were either un-datable or had post-Columbus dates. (A high fraction of Eq. samples from mesoamerica have proven to be un-datable due to leaching out of collagen from the bones, due to the hot humid climate of the area.)

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Re: DNA Evidence for BofM Geography

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I'm listening to Rod Meldrum's DVD and wish to record and share some of the salient scientific points he makes...

Evolutionary Anthropology, 12:7-18, 2003 --
Haplogroup X also has been found in two individuals from... a 700-year old cemetery in west-central Illinois.... Sequences are virtually identical to those of modern Algonquians from the Great Lakes region, confirmed to be members of haplogroup X."
The Algonquian tribes include: http://www.geocities.com/bigorrin/algonquian_kids.htm

The many Algonquian tribes include the Abenakis, Algonquins, Arapahos, Attikameks, Blackfeet, Cheyennes, Crees, Gros Ventre, Illini, Kickapoo, Lenni Lenape/Delawares, Lumbees (Croatan Indians), Mahicans (including Mohicans, Stockbridge Indians, and Wappingers), Maliseets, Menominees, Sac and Fox, Miamis, M�tis/Michif, Mi'kmaq/Micmacs, Mohegans (including Pequots, Montauks, Niantics, and Shinnecocks), Montagnais/Innu, Munsees, Nanticokes, Narragansetts, Naskapis, Ojibways/Chippewas, Ottawas, Passamaquoddy, Penobscots, Potawatomis, Powhatans, Shawnees, Wampanoags (including the Massachusett, Natick, and Mashpee), Wiyot, and Yurok.
A map I found showing Amerind language groups:

http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/41/048.html

The map is helpful -- basically, the GREEN areas on the map are Algonquian, which show pre-Columbian Haploid group X (the SAME group found in Israel, italy and Finland).

What I noticed today is that the GREEN area includes parts of Wyoming and Colorado where solid Equus dates were found to be pre-Columbian. These are two of the three solid C-14 Eq. dates I referred to earlier.
We need some Equus samples from the midwest/Great Lakes region. Preliminary dating is often done based on the depth of the find. Then C-14 dating can do the quantitative date determination (but it is fairly expensive...)

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Re: DNA Evidence for BofM Geography

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Re: DNA Evidence for BofM Geography

Post by Proud 2b Peculiar »

looking at the map, I find it interesting that my Cherokee and Sioux are close together on the South East. There are stories that the Cherokee came here in Giant clams.

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Re: DNA Evidence for BofM Geography

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Very interesting, LC...

JBalm:
It appears to me that Meldrum asserts that the narrow neck of land is between lakes Erie and Ontario. In this scenario, where he uses the hill where Joseph found the plates as Cumorah, it places Cumorah southward of the narrow neck.
Cumorah is east from this narrow neck (not south) by my map. Note that Cumorah is in the "land northward", as opposed to north... perhaps the distinction is significant. I'm not convinced at this time that Cumorah in NY is the Cumorah of Mormon 6 (but I consider it a worthwhile hypothesis to study). Nor am I convinced that Cerro Vigia in So. Mexico is the Cumorah of Mormon 6...

Jbalm:
ETA: As I look at the verses above, another issue came to mind. The first landing being referenced is that of the Mulekites. According to Meldrum's theory about the position of Cumorah and the narrow neck of land, the Mulekites would have left Jerusalem and made their first landing somewhere on the western shore of Lake Ontario.
Where do you get this?
I see on his maps the initial landing of the Nephites as near New Orleans... but I wrote to him that the evidence for this seems weak and I would leave the initial landing site open until further evidence emerges.

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Re: DNA Evidence for BofM Geography

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Cumorah is east from this narrow neck (not south) by my map. Note that Cumorah is in the "land northward", as opposed to north... perhaps the distinction is significant. I'm not convinced at this time that Cumorah in NY is the Cumorah of Mormon 6 (but I consider it a worthwhile hypothesis to study). Nor am I convinced that Cerro Vigia in So. Mexico is the Cumorah of Mormon 6...
Is this an actual existing map, or are you referring to the hypothesis you are currently developing? I'm curious as to how you arrived at this picture. I've always interpreted "the land northward" as being that north of the narrow neck. I'm not afraid to admit I'm wrong, however.
Where do you get this?
That's the way I interpreted the scripture I posted previously.
30 And it bordered upon the land which they called Desolation, it being so far northward that it came into the land which had been peopled and been destroyed, of whose bones we have spoken, which was discovered by the people of Zarahemla, it being the place of their first landing.
31 And they came from there up into the south wilderness. Thus the land on the northward was called Desolation, and the land on the southward was called Bountiful, it being the wilderness which is filled with all manner of wild animals of every kind, a part of which had come from the land northward for food.
The bolded portion is referring to Cumorah (Ramah to the Jaredites). Apparently the Mulekites (the original people of Zarahemla) came across the remnants of the Jaredites' final battle at their first landing site before they proceeded south to find a more hospitable area. The "of whose bones we have spoken" refers to the previous chapter in Alma in which Limhi sent out a party to look for Zarahemla, and in that party's process of getting lost, they found Ramah and the plates of Ether.

Therefore, if Meldrum is correct about the narrow neck of land and especially the location of Cumorah, the only shore near the area that could fit would be Lake Ontario.
We need some Equus samples from the midwest/Great Lakes region.
I remember some discussion about a horse skull found in a burial mound in Wisconsin. Do you know anything about that?

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Re: DNA Evidence for BofM Geography

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I've read a lot on the issue of American Indians and the Book of Mormon, including lots of stuff from FARMS, and I subscribed to Ancient American magazine. I used to think of Native Americans as Lamanites, then I adopted the Limited Geography theory, then a theory of mixtures of different groups after the fall of the Nephites, now I basically back to the Native Americans being Lamanites. I know that probably seems backwards to intelligent people. I can look past what Joseph supposedly said about Onandagus being known all over the continent, and what other church leaders have said in the past. And now I realize the church has softened it's claims by changing the introduction to the Book of Mormon to just say that the Lamanites are "among" the ancestors of the Native Americans rather than the "principle" ancestors.. But I can't reconciled the Limited Geography Theory with what Nephi wrote:

12 And I looked and beheld a man among the Gentiles, who was separated from the seed of my brethren by the many waters; and I beheld the Spirit of God, that it came down and wrought upon the man; and he went forth upon the many waters, even unto the seed of my brethren, who were in the promised land.
13 And it came to pass that I beheld the Spirit of God, that it wrought upon other Gentiles; and they went forth out of captivity, upon the many waters.
14 And it came to pass that I beheld many multitudes of the Gentiles upon the land of promise; and I beheld the wrath of God, that it was upon the seed of my brethren; and they were scattered before the Gentiles and were smitten.


1 Nephi 13

So assuming this passage of the Book of Mormon is true, and assuming that Nephi really did interpret the dream\vision from God correctly, and that the man that crossed the many waters is Columbus, then Nephi thought also that the Native Americans were the children of the Lamanites, even to where Columbus went and where multitudes of other Gentiles came and scattered the seed of his brethren. This just doesn't sound like the Limited Geography theory. However, this doesn't really say anything about the Nephites, just the Lamanites when Columbus arrived. It is possible that there was a Limited Geography theory when the Nephites were around, which then expanded to a greater area after the Nephites were destroyed, but I think that's pushing it. So I think the land of the Nephites was bigger than just Guatemala or Mexico. And I don't think those stone stepped temples were the Nephites'. Those don't seem to be made after the manner of Solomon but rather human sacrifice. I think the Nephites' temples were made of wood and are long gone, probably destroyed by the Lamanites. That's just me.

Plus Joseph Smith, Oliver Cowdery, and Brigham Young were confident that the hill where Joseph got the plates was the actual Hill Cumorah in the Book of Mormon. I know that Sorensen makes good argument for there being two Cumorahs, but I just can't get on board with that.

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Re: DNA Evidence for BofM Geography

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Thank you ShineOn -- I seem to be following a similar path in my thinking as evidence mounts.

Jbalm:
I'm referring to Rod's map, about #10 here: http://www.redhotlogo.com/DNALOCATION1.htm You will note that Cumorah (NY) is east from this "narrow neck"; also, the BoM refers to the "land northward" perhaps referring to northerly (and colder). It's hard to discuss this way, without maps... Can someone put that map #10 (showing the "21 miles" narrow neck) here?

Jbalm:
The bolded portion is referring to Cumorah (Ramah to the Jaredites). Apparently the Mulekites (the original people of Zarahemla) came across the remnants of the Jaredites' final battle at their first landing site before they proceeded south to find a more hospitable area. The "of whose bones we have spoken" refers to the previous chapter in Alma in which Limhi sent out a party to look for Zarahemla, and in that party's process of getting lost, they found Ramah and the plates of Ether.

Therefore, if Meldrum is correct about the narrow neck of land and especially the location of Cumorah, the only shore near the area that could fit would be Lake Ontario.
I see what you are saying now, and I agree. Note that "a more hospitable area" to the southward would make sense in the Meldrum scenario (warmer southward, bitter winters near lake Ontario) -- would it fit the Sorenson setting?

Re " remember some discussion about a horse skull found in a burial mound in Wisconsin. Do you know anything about that?"
yes, I think you're referring to the Spencer Lake find, which proved to be Equus since Columbus (about 150 years ago; I headed up the dating on that one).




I

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Re: DNA Evidence for BofM Geography

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Any idea where Meldrum places Desolation?

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Re: DNA Evidence for BofM Geography

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I've been studying his maps, available here thanks to Whisperfox (who I hope will join the discussion as he knows more about this model than I do!) --

http://www.redhotlogo.com/DNAspeculation.htm

Land of Desolation early on (ca. 71 BC) is Michigan and southern Ontario --- later (circa 322 AD)Ontario and it looks like Cumorah (NY) is included. It looks to me like the model needs a bit of polishing (e.g., very large distances; but see Hel 3:3-4) -- comments, Whisperfox?

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Re: DNA Evidence for BofM Geography

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Note that "a more hospitable area" to the southward would make sense in the Meldrum scenario (warmer southward, bitter winters near lake Ontario) -- would it fit the Sorenson setting?
I've never been to Lake Ontario, so I'm really not sure how much of a difference there is between the northern and souther shores. Keep in mind that Lake Ontario is only about 50 miles max.
I can look past what Joseph supposedly said about Onandagus being known all over the continent,
Not criticizing, just trying to understand how the Onandagus thing had a major effect on your opinion (this is from the Zelph thing isn't it?). I never really thought much about it.

By the way, remember that Columbus never landed in North America. He only reached the mainland on his 3rd and 4th voyages, where he landed in South and Central America.

Just as an aside, while trying to map out the BOM promised land is immensely interesting, the account of the Lehites journey through the Arabian peninsula is incredibly accurate. And I mean this from the perspective that there is geographical information that, while dead on accurate, was not known to westerners in the 1800s, and certainly not known to a farm boy like JS. There is enough there to prove the historicity of the BOM in my opinion.

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Re: DNA Evidence for BofM Geography

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(Note; The comment about "Onandagus" was not my comment...)

Totally agreed -- good point, Jbalm:
Just as an aside, while trying to map out the BOM promised land is immensely interesting, the account of the Lehites journey through the Arabian peninsula is incredibly accurate. And I mean this from the perspective that there is geographical information that, while dead on accurate, was not known to westerners in the 1800s, and certainly not known to a farm boy like JS. There is enough there to prove the historicity of the BOM in my opinion.
Looking at the maps, seems that the line from Lake Huron to L. Erie would be another candidate for the "narrow neck", starting near Sarnia. (I was through this area last summer...)

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Re: DNA Evidence for BofM Geography

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Okay, I've looked at the maps. Is he proposing that at one point the narrow neck of land changed from the land between Lake Ontario and Lake Erie at one point in time to what is essentially the southern Michigan state line at another?

Or is he presenting alternative theories?

Proposing that the Mich. state line is the narrow neck is makes the theory vulnerable to the same criticism that Meldrum made regarding Sorenson's setting. If a Nephite cannot, per Meldrum, cross the Isthmus of Tehuantepec in a day and a half, he certainly cannot traverse the distance between Lake Erie and the southern tip of Lake Michigan, which is an even greater distance, in the same time.

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Re: DNA Evidence for BofM Geography

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It looks like we're posting on top of one another.

I live in Michigan, so I would prefer this to be the setting for the BOM. Just think of all the holes I could dig looking for "evidence." Right now, I'm having a difficult time making Meldrum's model fit the scriptural account.

And the Onandagus comment was directed to ShineOn. I should have been more clear.

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Re: DNA Evidence for BofM Geography

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Image

The images are available but I saved them as a standard 640x480 image. This site allows a 600 max size so they aren't readily postable here. I resized and reposted the one requested.

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Re: DNA Evidence for BofM Geography

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thanks, Whisperfox -- that is a key map!

This morning, I've been reading Alma 22:27 - end, and having some difficulty reconciling that with Rod's map... It may be possible, but I just don't see the correlations yet...

27 And it came to pass that the king [of Lamanites] sent a aproclamation throughout all the land, amongst all his people who were in all his land, who were in all the regions round about, which was bordering even to the sea, on the east and on the bwest, and which was divided from the land of cZarahemla by a narrow strip of wilderness, which ran from the sea east even to the sea west, and round about on the borders of the seashore, and the borders of the wilderness which was on the north by the land of Zarahemla, through the borders of dManti, by the head of the eriver Sidon, running from the east towards the west—and thus were the Lamanites and the Nephites divided.
28 Now, the more aidle part of the Lamanites lived in the wilderness, and dwelt in tents; and they were spread through the wilderness on the west, in the land of Nephi; yea, and also on the west of the land of Zarahemla, in the borders by the seashore, and on the west in the land of Nephi, in the place of their fathers’ first inheritance, and thus bordering along by the seashore.


In Rod's map, how are Lamanite lands "divided from the land of cZarahemla by a narrow strip of wilderness, which ran from the sea east even to the sea west, and round about on the borders of the seashore," ? In the BoM, the narrow strip of wilderness runs from the "sea east even to the sea west" -- but the great Lakes in Rod's map are far to the north of the Lamanite lands.

Also, in Rod's map, how are the Lamanites "spread through the wilderness on the west, in the land of Nephi"?

And how is the land "thus the land of Nephi and the land of Zarahemla were nearly surrounded by water, there being a small bneck of land between the land northward and the land southward." Where is all this water around the lands? (Down to the Gulf of Mexico maybe?)

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