DNA Evidence for BofM Geography

[BroJones]

Good points, Whisperfox:

This map covers a mid general area but the areas changed based on the BofM commentary.

I wish Rod had a short (free, open to be copied) video that would allow us to freely pass his wealth of investigation around freely. I believe his case would be better served if more members had free access to the information.

ShawnC -- I would be interested in your 'maps'.

Note that the idea of a BoM setting in the USA goes back to the time of Joseph Smith, and evidently to Joseph himself -- and much was written on this before Rod Meldrum came along. To be fair, I think we should take a look at various "MAPS" and ideas.. and always go back to the Book of Mormon itself for guidance. (Has someone done this extensive homework?? Or know where it is written up? )

[jbalm]

Of course, FARMS has written extensively on this. I could locate and post several articles if interested, but I think I may have sensed a bit of anti-FARMS sentiment on this thread.

There is another guy, Jerry Ainsworth, who doesn't appear to be affiliated with FARMS. I have his book, "The Lives and Travels of Mormon and Moroni." It has some good insights. He favors the Mesoamerica setting, however, and I know this thread seems to be seeking alternatives to it.

By the way, Ainsworth has a site, and has a newsletter you can sign up for for free. The site is http://mormonsites.org/.

[jbalm]

If we were to undertake the research on our own, quite frankly I would use a different method than Meldrum. For instance, rather than identifying certain "anchors" and using scripture and various statements to try to shoehorn to fit said pre-identified anchor, we should first accumulate everything we know about each location and make a map based only on our findings (a pretend map, so to speak). That map can then be compared to existing maps to try to find a fit.

Then that raises the next question: What sources would we use to identify each anchor? I would propose, for several reasons, that the BOM itself be the prime source of such information, and outside sources should be used only after the BOM information is exhausted. I would propose that the BOM is the most reliable source.

The next set of sources, secondary sources, would be statements made by prophets when they are speaking in their capacity as a prophet. The emphasis is added because more casual statements are often contradictory and would lead to squabbles that get absolutely nowhere. For instance, the comments made in the "Times and Seasons" of which JS was editor and chief, will, in the eyes of some contradict what JS said in personal letters to his wife.

Tertiary sources would include scientific data.

Last in priority would be second hand sources--hearsay, so to speak. Someone else's account of what someone else, particularly JS, said about the issue.

Does this make sense?

[ShawnC]

Good points, Whisperfox:

This map covers a mid general area but the areas changed based on the BofM commentary.

I wish Rod had a short (free, open to be copied) video that would allow us to freely pass his wealth of investigation around freely. I believe his case would be better served if more members had free access to the information.

ShawnC -- I would be interested in your 'maps'.

Note that the idea of a BoM setting in the USA goes back to the time of Joseph Smith, and evidently to Joseph himself -- and much was written on this before Rod Meldrum came along. To be fair, I think we should take a look at various "MAPS" and ideas.. and always go back to the Book of Mormon itself for guidance. (Has someone done this extensive homework?? Or know where it is written up? )

I don't really have maps drawn out or anything, just theories in my head. A couple of things to remember, in the official 6 volume set of church history if I recall correctly, there is a story of Joseph with some of the brethren. They dug up an area on a hill and found some bones. Joseph told them it was a white Lamanite named Zeniff I think, (I'm probably butchering the story) with an arrow in his ribcage. They then buried him back up.

Also the BoM tells us that when the savior died, that the entire face of the land changed. I often think it would be hard to recognize many things that may have been described in the BoM because of this.

In a book called "Little known evidences of the BoM" it is stated that the early farmers in the area around the Hill Cumorah in New York said that the soil very very rich in lime which comes from decayed bones. Interesting stuff.

Shawn

[ShawnC]

Here is better info...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zelph

[WhisperFox]

Meldrum doesn't seem to start with the preconceived location. It does start with the current evidence of DNA and then proceed to toss out most of our current paradigm in favor of reading just what was recorded by Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon to provide general locations. I find it a little silly to spend this much time trying to located exact locations as if by doing so we have "proven" the book.

Meldrum doesn't discount that Christ visited other areas of the western hemisphere, or elsewhere in the world. His premise seems to be that Christ did visit all of these places but that the Book of Mormon itself is the record of specific North American people.

While we quibble over the exact descriptions of the terrain given in the Book of Mormon, trying to place them exactly on a 20th century map, we seem to have forgotten the dozens perhaps hundreds of references to "a land of liberty" type stuff that can only be references to the US and can't possibly be references to the Central American countries. How many should it take to confirm the basic idea. The LDS apologists have spent decades justifying how these seemingly precise references to "this land" and a great latter-day nation can possibly be references to Central or South America countries.

The building construction of these North American tribes fits precisely with the descriptions of the book from the basic structures to their fortifications of their cities, but the stone structures of Central America do not.

Joseph's description of the boundaries fits with existing archaeological data of North America, "from the East Sea to the Rocky Mountains" not Central.

The Lord called him to send missionaries to the descendants of Lehi, so he sent them west and others North to teach to the exact tribes that have the DNA match, not to Central America (which happened over a hundred years later).

Seasonal "beasts" large enough to follow and slaughter (buffalo) migrating as per the BofM are available only in North America not Central.

A land of "many waters" clearly describes the Great Lakes but has to be stretched to conform to a Central American location. Basic terrain can change and can be described by each of us today differently enough to cause confusion, but most of the rest of these ideas are beyond much serious question.

I think this discussion would be over in a heart beat except to discuss with excitement new paradigms that fit, and laugh at ourselves for old ones that did not, were it not for 2 things.

1st. The vested interest we have in avoiding admitting we were wrong in stretching truths to conform with a Central American location. No one really wants to admit that we were wrong and that Joseph really did know better.

2nd. Those presenting the new paradigms seem to want to make a buck on the information selling the DVD's instead of just making the information available for all to copy and pass around. If the information were instantly available, the truths are easy to see.

I ask myself, is it wrong for them to want to get a return on their investment for their years of time spent collecting this information? I think most of us have spent a fair amount of time studying. Maybe we should all charge to share what we've learned. Prepaid Sunday School lessons would be a good start. Maybe more would pay the price to study the truth if we could all make a buck on it. I guess that's the new Mormon way of marketing everything, especially religion. Wonder what an odd book like the Book of Mormon teaches us about that?

Yes, the FARMS folks have a vested interest in dis-proving this new hypothesis. They've been marketing the old paradigm for decades. Makes sense that the new information should be marketed too. I quit paying for the FARMS stuff decades ago as I decided I wasn't going to pay for my religious information when the Lord offers it to us free. It seems we Mormons only place value on it if we charge for it.

Is Meldrum right in his observations? IMO, on most or at least on enough that it requires us to seriously look at his information as soon as he decides that it is more important for the information to get out than it is to make a buck on it. I dislike selling religion. I think if he just passed the information out freely he'd probably be an LDS celebrity speaking everywhere as the information generally answers all the serious questions naysayers will present.

Now I've offended FARMS and Meldrum so I can't be accused of having a hidden agenda.

[BroJones]

Wisperfox:

The building construction of these North American tribes fits precisely with the descriptions of the book from the basic structures to their fortifications of their cities, but the stone structures of Central America do not.

I'm very interested in more information to support this. (I'm working my way through Rod's DVD, not done yet...)

I certainly sympathize with the concern over charging for information which regards the Book of Mormon... As a friend told me (and I agreed) -- especially when one bears testimony and asks to be paid (as opposed to scientific-style studies). I think Rod's heart is in the right place, along with so many others who are looking for the truth. (I.e., he's not the only one writing and studying this...)



I like your approach, jbalm -- start with the "internal map" of the BoM, and that is something a number of people have worked on. That certainly seems like the right place to start... along with DNA and other evidence (in parallel). Yes, there were big changes around 34 AD, yet Mormon visited Zarahemla in his youth with his father (Mormon 1), still on the river Sidon, and he seemed to be able to readily describe a lot about the pre-3Nephi8 lay-of-the-land, for instance in Alma 22.

[jbalm]

Meldrum doesn't seem to start with the preconceived location.

Granted, I haven't studied his stuff, but it seems that the whole thing is based on the notion that the hill where the plates were found was Cumorah. Everything else seems to hinge on that.

I like your approach, jbalm -- start with the "internal map" of the BoM, and that is something a number of people have worked on. That certainly seems like the right place to start... along with DNA and other evidence (in parallel). Yes, there were big changes around 34 AD, yet Mormon visited Zarahemla in his youth with his father (Mormon 1), still on the river Sidon, and he seemed to be able to readily describe a lot about the pre-3Nephi8 lay-of-the-land, for instance in Alma 22.

I agree that the fact that Mormon abridged almost the entire book, and even inserts comments in the writings of earlier authors here and there, provides a continuity to the entire text and lends support to the notion that many of the feature pre- and post-crucifixion, remained intact to some degree. In fact, if that assumption is not made, then Meldrum, FARMS, Ainsworth, and everyone else might as well quit wasting their time.

If you're interested in this, I may put together the BOM information on the narrow neck of land this weekend. I'll look again, but I think we've done a pretty good job on Cumorah earlier on the thread.

[BroJones]

Jbalm:

If you're interested in this, I may put together the BOM information on the narrow neck of land this weekend"

I'm interested... and look forward to your work and comments on this.

[WhisperFox]

Abbreviated version using pirated slides from Meldrum's video. Guess I shouldn't throw stones.

[BroJones]

Thank you, Whisperfox. A question we're puzzling over is -- the Narrow Neck of land, is it near southern Michigan (per the map you kindly provided), or is it North of Lake Erie as suggested in a later map (showing a 21-mile Narrow Neck)?

Meanwhile, here is a great clip on the Book of Mormon and secret combinations, quoting Pres. Benson and Pres. Hinckley: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ah9WImdp9wc

[ShawnC]

Thank you, Whisperfox. A question we're puzzling over is -- the Narrow Neck of land, is it near southern Michigan (per the map you kindly provided), or is it North of Lake Erie as suggested in a later map (showing a 21-mile Narrow Neck)?

Meanwhile, here is a great clip on the Book of Mormon and secret combinations, quoting Pres. Benson and Pres. Hinckley: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ah9WImdp9wc

I think it is a common fallacy to think that the narrow neck is the portion between north and south Americas. The thinnest part of that area is 50 miles across. It is 20 miles to the horizon so an average Nephite could not even see across from one side of the "narrow" neck to the other. This never made sense to me. Also I read a book a number of years ago on my mission when I had a sick companion for 2 weeks. It was called "The Lands of Zarahemla". the author put the Nephite lands near Guatemala. I don't believe that, but he did say that perhaps Hagoth in the BoM sailed up the Mississippi river in his exploring adventures and that is why we see Nephite type burial mounds. Interesting theory. I tend to believe that Hagoth went the direction of the Polynesian islands. Just more stuff to think about?

Shawn

[jbalm]

The thinnest part of that area is 50 miles across. It is 20 miles to the horizon so an average Nephite could not even see across from one side of the "narrow" neck to the other.

Actually, this raises on of the most difficult questions in trying to make this map: What was the Nephite's perspective regarding time and distance?

Since Nephi had sailed across the Indian and Pacific oceans, would he have thought that one of the great lakes was a "sea?" Or when the party Limhi sent out to look for Zarahemla traveled for "many days," are we talking days, weeks, or months? Do we assume that the Nephites could cross the American continent on foot in a few months if it took Lehi's party 8 years to journey across the Arabian peninsula? How much difference would the terrain make?

When some migrated an exceeding great distance, are we talking 100 miles? 500 miles? 1000 miles?

Presumably, the Nephites traveled primarily on foot, so an exceedingly great distance could be 200 or 300 miles. But it could be a lot more than that. One must also consider that what seemed like an exceedingly great distance to Mormon, who probably stayed in a fairly localized area throughout his life, may not have seemed like such a great distance to the seafaring Nephi.

Hopefully there will be some clues to answer these questions.

Specifically regarding the narrow neck of land, Nephi, who I believe first identified it, could have had an awareness of boundaries beyond his line of sight. But also, if there was high ground, like a hill or mountain on the narrow neck, one could conceivably see a very large body of water as 80 or 90 miles away in both directions. Maybe more.

...that is why we see Nephite type burial mounds.

Is there a BOM source for Nephite burial mounds, or is it from something else?

[ShawnC]

...that is why we see Nephite type burial mounds.

Is there a BOM source for Nephite burial mounds, or is it from something else?

I gather that from how they would mound up their dead and cover them with dirt, and also the previous story of Zelph the White Lamanite being buried in a burial hill. The Aztecs and Incas would use burial mounds sometimes as well as the native Americans.

[kenai_snagger]

I have found this discussion most interesting, but have a question. The narrow neck of land between Lakes Erie and Ontario has a single outstanding landmark, the Niagara River with the Niagara Falls. Considering the frequent trips by the Lehites across the narrow neck of land, the Niagara River would have been a major obstacle for a primitive people. Is there any mention in Alma or BM about a mighty river running from the West Sea to the East Sea?

Also, Mesoamerica does have migratory beasts, including deer and pig-like animals such as tapir and peccary. I recently watched a program on PBS about these migratory beasts. Mesoamerica has its rainy seasons and dry seasons. The animals live in the mountainous interior during the rainy season and are forced to migrate towards the coasts during the dry season. The migratory pattern also includes predatory animals such as jaguars.

[jbalm]

Is there any mention in Alma or BM about a mighty river running from the West Sea to the East Sea?

Not that I'm aware of.

[Proud 2b Peculiar]

Is there any other land that has all nations flow to it?

Is there another land that could be considered a land of Liberty?

Alma 46
17 And it came to pass that when he had poured out his soul to God, he named all the land which was south of the land Desolation, yea, and in fine, all the land, both on the north and on the south—A chosen land, and the land of liberty.

Mosiah 29: 32, 39
32 And now I desire that this inequality should be no more in this land, especially among this my people; but I desire that this land be a land of liberty, and every man may enjoy his rights and privileges alike, so long as the Lord sees fit that we may live and inherit the land, yea, even as long as any of our posterity remains upon the face of the land.

This (the verse above)also makes me think about how Joseph Smith wanted to free the slaves.


2 Ne. 1: 7
7 Wherefore, this land is consecrated unto him whom he shall bring. And if it so be that they shall serve him according to the commandments which he hath given, it shall be a land of liberty unto them; wherefore, they shall never be brought down into captivity; if so, it shall be because of iniquity; for if iniquity shall abound cursed shall be the land for their sakes, but unto the righteous it shall be blessed forever.


2 Ne. 10: 11
11 And this land shall be a land of liberty unto the Gentiles, and there shall be no kings upon the land, who shall raise up unto the Gentiles.

12 And I will fortify this land against all other nations.

13 And he that fighteth against Zion shall perish, saith God.

Is there any other place where Gentiles have lived that has not had a king 'upon the land'? Is there any other place that meets this requirement and had Zion established in it?


Alma 45: 16 (10-14, 16).
16 And he said: Thus saith the Lord God—Cursed shall be the land, yea, this land, unto every nation, kindred, tongue, and people, unto destruction, which do wickedly, when they are fully ripe; and as I have said so shall it be; for this is the cursing and the blessing of God upon the land, for the Lord cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance.

Morm. 1: 17.
17 But I did remain among them, but I was forbidden to preach unto them, because of the hardness of their hearts; and because of the hardness of their hearts the land was cursed for their sake.

Ether 2: 11 (8-12).
11 And this cometh unto you, O ye Gentiles, that ye may know the decrees of God—that ye may repent, and not continue in your iniquities until the fulness come, that ye may not bring down the fulness of the wrath of God upon you as the inhabitants of the land have hitherto done.

What was the curse?

"18 And these Gadianton robbers, who were among the Lamanites, did infest the land, insomuch that the inhabitants thereof began to hide up their treasures in the earth; and they became slippery, because the Lord had cursed the land, that they could not hold them, nor retain them again.

19 And it came to pass that there were sorceries, and witchcrafts, and magics; and the power of the evil one was wrought upon all the face of the land, even unto the fulfilling of all the words of Abinadi, and also Samuel the Lamanite."

Ether 2
" 8 And he had sworn in his wrath unto the brother of Jared, that whoso should possess this land of promise, from that time henceforth and forever, should serve him, the true and only God, or they should be swept off when the fulness of his wrath should come upon them.

9 And now, we can behold the decrees of God concerning this land, that it is a land of promise; and whatsoever nation shall possess it shall serve God, or they shall be swept off when the fulness of his wrath shall come upon them. And the fulness of his wrath cometh upon them when they are ripened in iniquity.

10 For behold, this is a land which is choice above all other lands; wherefore he that doth possess it shall serve God or shall be swept off; for it is the everlasting decree of God. And it is not until the fulness of iniquity among the children of the land, that they are swept off.

11 And this cometh unto you, O ye Gentiles, that ye may know the decrees of God—that ye may repent, and not continue in your iniquities until the fulness come, that ye may not bring down the fulness of the wrath of God upon you as the inhabitants of the land have hitherto done.

12 Behold, this is a choice land, and whatsoever nation shall possess it shall be a
free from bondage, and from captivity, and from all other nations under heaven, if they will but serve the God of the land, who is Jesus Christ, who hath been manifested by the things which we have written."

"
Isa. 33: 20
20 Look upon Zion, the city of our solemnities: thine eyes shall see Jerusalem a quiet habitation, a tabernacle that shall not be taken down; not one of the stakes thereof shall ever be removed, neither shall any of the cords thereof be broken."


Ether 13: 3-6, 10
3 And that it was the place of the New Jerusalem, which should come down out of heaven, and the holy sanctuary of the Lord.

4 Behold, Ether saw the days of Christ, and he spake concerning a New Jerusalem upon this land.

5 And he spake also concerning the house of Israel, and the Jerusalem from whence Lehi should come—after it should be destroyed it should be built up again, a holy city unto the Lord; wherefore, it could not be a new Jerusalem for it had been in a time of old; but it should be built up again, and become a holy city of the Lord; and it should be built unto the house of Israel.

6 And that a New Jerusalem should be built up upon this land, unto the remnant of the seed of Joseph, for which things there has been a type.
• • •
10 And then cometh the New Jerusalem; and blessed are they who dwell therein, for it is they whose garments are white through the blood of the Lamb; and they are they who are numbered among the remnant of the seed of Joseph, who were of the house of Israel.

[Proud 2b Peculiar]

http://www.hillcumorahhistory.com/

[BroJones]

Thank you for the BoM quotes, LC.

4 Behold, Ether saw the days of Christ, and he spake concerning a New Jerusalem upon this land.

Which we know will be in Missouri.

My scripture reading this am was centered in Helaman 3:

5 Yea, and even they did spread forth into all parts of the land, into whatever parts it had not been rendered desolate and without timber, because of the many inhabitants who had before inherited the land.
6 And now no part of the land was desolate, save it were for timber; but because of the greatness of the adestruction of the people who had before inhabited the land it was called desolate.

"Many inhabitants" previously -- not necessarily from the Middle East alone!

7 And there being but little timber upon the face of the land, nevertheless the people who went forth became exceedingly aexpert in the working of cement; therefore they did build houses of cement, in the which they did dwell.
8 And it came to pass that they did multiply and spread, and did go forth from the land southward to the land northward, and did spread insomuch that they began to cover the face of the whole earth, from the sea south to the sea north, from the sea west to the sea east.
9 And the people who were in the land northward did dwell in atents, and in houses of cement, and they did suffer whatsoever tree should spring up upon the face of the land that it should grow up, that in time they might have timber to build their houses, yea, their cities, and their temples, and their synagogues, and their sanctuaries, and all manner of their buildings.
10 And it came to pass as timber was exceedingly scarce in the land northward, they did send forth much by the way of ashipping.
11 And thus they did enable the people in the land northward that they might build many cities, both of wood and of cement.

Important clues: "from the sea south to the sea north, from the sea west to the sea east"

Is there any evidence for the use of CEMENT in the Missouri-to-great lakes region, near the time of Christ?
(Clearly from Hel 3, the people preferred to use wood for building, but finding cement would be significant given Hel. 3).

[jbalm]

8 And it came to pass that they did multiply and spread, and did go forth from the land southward to the land northward, and did spread insomuch that they began to cover the face of the whole earth, from the sea south to the sea north, from the sea west to the sea east.

This is a difficult verse to figure out. It seems that in this case, Mormon is being almost "poetic" in his description. When he says they "began to cover the face of the whole earth," I would have to assume he doesn't actually mean the whole earth. He undoubtedly knew of the old world. Or is he referring only to the land northward as the whole earth?

Arguably, a case could be made for the Great Lakes region as containing the 4 seas mentioned in the verse. But its difficult to find any location in the area bounded by any more than 3 lakes. and also the "whole earth" problem is exacerbated.

The 4 seas could work in a continent wide setting I guess. But that would entail going up to the Arctic Ocean.

Or the 4 seas could just be symbolic of the 4 points of the compass.

I find this to be one of the more perplexing verses when trying to map out the BOM.

[jbalm]

Helaman 3:8 is a little more confusing when compare to Helaman 11:20 which only mentions 2 seas.

20 And thus it did come to pass that the people of Nephi began to prosper again in the land, and began to build up their waste places, and began to multiply and spread, even until they did cover the whole face of the land, both on the northward and on the southward, from the sea west to the sea east.

[Proud 2b Peculiar]

Has anyone tried to see if things fit at all using ALL of North and South America?

And Dr. Jones, at Adam-Ondi-Ahman... I saw stairs that looked like cement, but different. It had bubbles in it, it looked light, but it was heavy.. no way for me to know the time period.

If you have the Wayne May DVD's he talks about the waters of Mormon being in southern Missouri/Northern Arkansas, and he shows some stairs... they look just like that.

[jbalm]

Has anyone tried to see if things fit at all using ALL of North and South America?

Yes. Its called the hemispheric theory. Actually, it was the most commonly assumed theory in the early church. Not many subscribe to it anymore, however. I believe that the main problem is the distances involved.

[jbalm]

Dr. Jones,

While I was looking for "narrow neck" scriptures, I came across this article:

http://farms.byu.edu/display.php?table=review&id=7

It looks like the work of making a scripture based map has been done. The guy has an interesting section on estimating distance. Let me know what you think. I guess it will be easier picking apart this guy's stuff than starting from scratch.

[Proud 2b Peculiar]

Has anyone tried to see if things fit at all using ALL of North and South America?

Yes. Its called the hemispheric theory. Actually, it was the most commonly assumed theory in the early church. Not many subscribe to it anymore, however. I believe that the main problem is the distances involved.

What are the distance issues? I mean I am thinking about how fast the French, Spanish and English and others populated this nation... and the Lamanites and Nephites had more time then that to populate.....

Didn't Joseph say that Lehi landed in a very specific place? And we know that the Nephites left that location and went north. And we know where Ether was talking about as far as the New Jerusalem is concerned.

The burial mounds in Ohio really interest me, and the copper mines up by the great lakes do as well.....

When I was traveling last year, I came across Alma, Nebraska "City of Native Stone" and Alma, Kansas..... I thought that was really interesting.

http://www.almaisforyou.com/

http://www.cityofalma-kansas.net/

http://www.ci.alma.mi.us/

Alma Arkansas
http://almachamber.com/HISTORY%20OF%20ALMA.pdf