Passing the Heavenly Gift by Denver Snuffer

[AshleyB]

The reason Jules and myself and others are not doing that is because we already have but people are not listening. Also, we are trying to respect the content of the book and the author's wishes by not divorcing quotes from the rest of the book.The best way to understand what he is saying is to read it along with the rest of the material otherwise the conclusion is not going to be the best representative of the truth. The point is that you guys have already made up your minds about his words and this book. You are not sincerely wanting to know because if you were you would just read it. No, you have already made it clear it is your mission to expose Denver and his evil speaking for all to see. Nothing any of us say will convince you because you have already made your minds up and its not really our job to convince you. Read it or don't. Your choice.

[shadow]

http://lds.org/general-conference/1994/ ... t?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
It's a lot shorter than many books people are reading right now, I suggest multiple careful reads of this wonderful and true talk by a real Apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ. He is actually qualified to speak on such matters

[Mark]

This quote from the Prophet Joseph has application here. He said:

"I will give you one of the Keys of the mysteries of the Kingdom. It is an eternal principle that has existed with God from all eternity: That man who rises up to condemn others, finding fault with the Church, saying that they are out of the way, while he himself is righteous, then know assuredly, that that man is in the high road to apostasy; and if he does not repent, will apostatize, as God lives."

PS Great minds think alike NGL! )

I was reading a talk given by John Taylor back in 1895. He references the days of Joseph and gives very pointed warnings to those who get caught up in fault finding the Lords anointed servants called to guide his church and kingdom in these latter days. I recommend it for all here to read.

I want to make it clear that I have no personal axe to grind against this author nor do I know him from Adam. I am simply addressing his comments from the book in question as to their appropriateness particularly in the way He refers to our living prophets as proud and lacking vision. That to me is completely inappropriate and unnecessary and shows me that he is not in tune with the Spirit by doing so. Please read Pres. Taylors talk.


Finding Fault of the Leaders


A General Conference Address
delivered by
Elder John W. Taylor of the Twelve
April 1895

It gives me great pleasure to have the privilege of meeting with the Latter-day Saints, in this conference. I need not say to you that I have been highly delighted with the sound instruction that we have received this morning and the testimonies that have been borne by Elders A. H. Cannon and M. W. Merrill. These brethren have been portraying to this congregation the great necessity for the people being employed. I imagine that some people also need their minds employed.

I delight, my brethren and sisters, to belong to an association that worships God, and where all things are done by common consent. I delight to be numbered among that people where every man can speak his own views without feeling under any restrictions. I delight in being associated with an organization where there is a perfect law of liberty extended unto the members thereof. Paul the Apostle said he was not ashamed of the Gospel of Christ, for it was the power of God unto salvation unto all those who believed, and a perfect law of liberty--that is, perfect liberty to do what was right.

While sitting on my seat I have been going over a little of the early history of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. In speaking of these things I have to depend entirely upon what I have read and what I have heard others say; but as near as I can understand Joseph Smith came to establish the Church of Christ upon the earth in this the dispensation of the fulness of times. He was not a graduate of college. He was not a man who prepared himself to be the leader of this great dispensation. He was an ordinary man, laboring with his father in the fields. But the Lord had mercy upon the young man, and undoubtedly he had been ordained before the foundations of the earth were laid to come forth in this dispensation to be the medium through which the Lord should reveal His mind and will unto the children of men.

But there is one thing I have noticed; from the very time that the Prophet Joseph went out to pray in secret in the woodlands in the State of New York, the power of Satan has been manifest. That power attacked the young man to such an extent that it seemed like it would destroy him; but our Father in Heaven and His Son Jesus Christ, condescending to answer the prayers of the young Prophet, came down and visited him, and the power of Satan was at once banished.

Now, is it not strange that the devil could not allow this young man to be alone while he poured out his soul unto God? It may seem strange to some, but I must confess that I have got to that condition of mind where it does not look strange to me. We find that the Prophet of the Lord, in going to keep his appointments with the angel Moroni, was interrupted and waylaid by ruffians who desired to destroy his life. We find that the ministers of the various denominations in the region in which he lived were aroused with bitter animosity against him, and from that time forth it was one continual stream of oppression and opposition, until the day he laid down his life for the testimony of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. I think the Prophet was arrested some forty-nine times and honorably acquitted of the charges that were made against him.

While traveling in the Southern States, I visited the home of Colonel Charles Zachary a resident of Henry County, Georgia. He had attended a meeting that was held by Elder Mathias F. Cowley and myself, and invited us to his home after the meeting. He was a man of prominence and experience, his hair was as white as snow. He said to me that there was something strange and remarkable about the Mormon people. He remembered well of hearing many years ago of a young prophet called Joseph Smith, that professed to receive revelations from the Lord, in the State of New York. He also remembered hearing of him going to Ohio, and from there to some of the western states. He said he had been reading the newspaper for about forty years, and had read a great many articles about the Latter-day Saints, but had never read anything good about them.

But, he said, what has impressed me very strongly is the fact that you people have grown and multiplied, and finally you are taking a part in the politics of the nation. He remarked that he thought he could see something in the destiny of the Mormons that had a greater power with it than the power of man. Well, I felt complimented to belong to the organization to which this gentleman referred.

After the Prophet had left the State of New York he was busy all the time, and the opposition against him became great and powerful. You all know the history of the persecution of the Saints in Missouri and in Illinois. The persecution began to have its effects upon some of the Latter-day Saints. As in the parable of the Savior, some of the seed had fallen upon stony ground, and when persecution came they turned away sorrowing; it was found that the seed had not taken good root. This can be seen in the early history of the Church.

There was one man who held the position of counselor to the Prophet Joseph Smith; he was a great orator, and he became so enthused with the power of his oratory that he thought he could carry the kingdom of God before him, and he told the Prophet that he thought he could get along without him. The Prophet said, "You try it, Sidney." He did try it, and he withered up and became almost unknown, and lost his Priesthood, his gift, his power, as do all those who have turned their faces away from this people and opposed the presiding authority thereof from that day to this; but the kingdom of God has not been shaken, but has gone steadily forward and onward until it has arrived at a condition when there will be present during this conference representatives of from fifteen to twenty nations, who will hold up their hands to support Wilford Woodruff as the Prophet, Seer, and Revelator to this Church.

Many of the Saints found fault with the Prophet Joseph. Some of the presiding authorities found fault with him; and at one time things had reached such a climax that there were only two of the Twelve Apostles, then present, who stood firm and faithful to the Prophet Joseph. Satan is a man of great intelligence, having dwelt with God the Eternal Father; and he knew that Joseph Smith was, in embryo, one of the greatest prophets that ever came forth among the children of men. Therefore, he sought by seizing hold of and over-powering him to blot out the possibility of the Church of God being organized in this the dispensation of the fulness of times. But this is another instance which shows that the wisdom of the Lord is greater than the cunning of the devil. The Lord came to the Prophet's aid when he knelt in the woodlands in secret prayer, who was assailed by Satan, and he had strength given to him according to his day and he was released from the power of the evil one.

What I want to bring before your minds is this: Here were men who had testified that God the Eternal Father had given them a testimony, who had testified that Jesus Christ was the Son of the true and living God, and that Joseph Smith had been raised up as a prophet, and they turned their faces away from the servant of God in the hour of tribulation. These are they, my brethren and sisters, that the Savior likened unto the seed that fell upon stony ground and it did not grow. They stood firm for a little season, but when persecution came they found fault with the Prophet and spoke evil of the work of God.

Now, I can see that same spirit just as plainly to-day working among the Latter-day Saints as it worked in the State of Missouri in early times. I can see in the background one or two apostates, publishing a document to which they do not sign their names, crouching down behind the grass like an assassin who is going to leap upon the passer-by and stab him in the back. I can see that same spirit of apostasy lurking underneath the surface, attacking the present presiding authorities of the Church. I refer, as an instance, to the correspondence to the New York Times that has appeared in its recent issues, attacking President Cannon in a very shameful manner, and inferring that the presiding authorities of this Church are deceiving this people, and plundering them.

Bless your soul, this is only another inspiration of Satan, who prompted the persecutions in the State of Missouri until the people were worked up till they were willing to put the Prophet Joseph Smith to death. I am not speaking now of the people of the world; but there were Latter-day Saints, so-called, who willingly gave their consent to these things. And we have got men and women in our midst to-day who willingly gave their consent to these falsehoods that are published abroad about those whom God has placed to preside over us. I want to tell you that no man, after having held up his right hand consenting to support certain men as the presiding authorities of this Church, can fight those men without breaking his covenants, and transgressing the commandments of the Almighty.

Whether in a church or in a business capacity, where you make covenants to do certain things, if you do not do them you are covenant-breakers. Those who are free and clean from this may rejoice and be exceeding glad. I tell you the tongue of man was given unto him to confess the truth. The testimony of Jesus Christ is given unto this people that we may testify of Him. The presiding authorities of this Church are given unto this people that they may guide and direct us by the revelations of Almighty God. It is a day of prophets, or it is a day of nothing.

Therefore, set your houses in order, and do not be finding fault with the presiding authorities of this Church. I hear of men saying that President Woodruff is an aged man, and Presidents Cannon and Smith have their own way about things. President Woodruff is eighty-eight years of age. How many men are here in this congregation that are eighty-eight years old? Christ gave to Peter the authority to bind on earth and it should be bound in heaven, to loose on earth and it should be loosed in heaven. Peter called unto his assistance James and John that they might counsel with him.

What is the object of having a counselor? Is it that he shall sit down and be like a piece of wood? No! The place of the counselors in the presidency of this Church is to stand and hold up the arms of the Prophet until the sun goes down, if necessary, and Israel prevails. A counselor is supposed to counsel. He is supposed to have an opinion of his own. He is supposed to be filled with the power and inspiration of Almighty God; when old age overtakes the Prophet, Seer, and Revelator, his counselors are there to stand by and strengthen him, and to give counsel by virtue of the authority vested in them.

I want to say that I rejoice exceedingly when there is so much fault found with the presiding authorities of this Church, because I know that the spirit of their calling is with them. I know that the enemies of Zion would like to see the watchmen step down from the towers of Zion, and leave the gates unguarded and the people at the mercy of a drove of ravenous wolves. But thanks be to the Lord our God that we have men of long experience, and men who have been tried and proven in the Church of god, to stand in that great and important position.

We are one, brethren and sisters; one in the testimony of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, one in a desire to build up the Church and to see the Latter-day Saints exalted to that great and honorable position which God testified they should occupy in the last days. We are not restricted in our opinions. I want to say, for the benefit of the Latter-day Saints and all the world, that I have belonged to the quorum of the Twelve Apostles for a number of years, have had the great privilege of meeting with the First Presidency often, and have always had the privilege of speaking my mind plainly and candidly, without any restriction; and it has been the same with the other brethren.

But I want to say this: when a question is decided, it is decided unanimously; and if I, being young, have made a fool of myself by differing continually with men of wisdom, and they show me wherein I am wrong, it is not to be supposed that I shall remain a fool forever, and not unite with my brethren. No, it is my duty always to acknowledge the truth. We delight that we are one. I delight to see the Presidency of this Church stand firm and steadfast and as one man, even as God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost are one--not one in person, but one in faith, one in authority, one in principle, and one in testimony.

I feel with all my heart to say to the Latter-day Saints, let us not become tainted with the spirit of fault-finding. Let us remember that the Holy Ghost guides us in the way of all truth; and if we all have that Spirit we all see alike. I want to tell you this; when you see the Presidency of the Church divided, and the Apostles divided, and the people divided in the things of God, then you will hear the glad shouts of our enemies, for they will rejoice exceedingly. Satan, the father of lies, and the instigator of all the persecutions against this people from the sixth day of April 1830, until the present day, is just as full as ever of life, energy, and determination to carry out his mission against the principles of truth and righteousness.

Brethren and sisters, if any of you have found fault with the Bishop of your ward, or with the president of your stake, or with the presiding authorities of the Church, go home and repent of your sins, and put your households in order. When your children ask you for bread, do not give them a scorpion in the way of slandering the presiding authorities of the Church; for I tell you the seed that you sow in the hearts of your children will be hard to uproot.

I bear testimony unto you that no man speaking by the Spirit of the Lord will ever criticize the authorities of the Priesthood which God has placed over him, after he has had the privilege of lifting up his hand either to support or not support that man. Let us be one, and not desire always to have our own way, and be determined to have it. For that reason the devil to-day is in opposition to the principles of truth and righteousness. He was determined to have his own way, and all those who were determined to have their own way went with him, to the number of about one-third of the hosts of heaven.

Let us feel to say, "Our Father who art in heaven, thy will be done." That is the spirit the Latter-day Saints should enjoy. May the Lord bless you, my brethren and sisters. And should there be any strangers present, I say unto them, God has revealed unto this people the principles of truth and righteousness; and if you will repent of your sins, and go down into the waters of baptism, you shall receive the testimony of the Holy Ghost, and you shall know for yourselves that what I say is true. God bless you all and the honest in heart in all the world, and help us to be worthy of eternal life, is my prayer in the name of Jesus Christ. Amen.

[gruden2.0]

I have repeatedly asked you to put these quotes that Gideon posted in the book in the context you feel the author is giving them. You continue to refuse to do so. Instead you just accuse others who don't interpret the words of the author as you do as bearing false witness against him and falsely accusing him.

If I am misreading this authors words and He in fact did not refer to leadership of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints as the "proud descendents of Nauvoo" and the "new popes" or "mormon Pontiffs" in our day who proclaim the all is well in their Zion and have lost the sealing power please by all means properly correct me and set me straight. I will anxiously await your reply Jules.

She owes you nothing because you've already been told pages ago. Snuffer very carefully lays out the reasoning for his statements with historical examples. Gideon's quotes remove the context in which they were made. Without the contextual support they do sound strange, and the Snuffer post from his blog tells you that. The honest in heart will seek to understand these things before they condemn. The further I progress in the book the more clear it becomes that this book is not for everyone, which Snuffer also makes clear.

In respect to the priesthood issue, some things I read along those lines caused me consternation as well, and frankly I prayed to know what was withheld and I have received an answer. It is not the sealing power (although I suspect some sealings may be invalidated for various reasons) but something very great that the Lord wanted to give us. While the church does not have it, it can be obtained individually.

[ATL Wake]

I will ask this once again. If an avowed enemy of the church today such as Decker or Tanner for example made the following statements what would be the reaction here?

The difference between Snuffer and Decker or Tanner is the ultimate message.

Denver explains "X" about the church, to support the conclusion "Y" that we must have a better relationship with Christ than we do now. This is best fostered by ACTIVE membership in the LDS Church.

Decker or Tanner argue "Z" for the purpose of saying "W" the church is not important. (I do not know whether or not they encourage seeking Christ or not.)

So the difference is, Y is an uplifting message, and W is not. That is why I ignore both Z and W, and why I study X and attempt Y.

Do those of you who are bothered by Denver's books agree with his ultimate conclusion? (We must have a better relationship with Christ than we do now. This is best fostered by ACTIVE membership in the LDS Church.)

If you do not disagree with his ultimate conclusion, and "X" bothers you, let it alone. If you seek to understand "X" better, great.

[Amore Vero]

Brethren and sisters, if any of you have found fault with the Bishop of your ward, or with the president of your stake, or with the presiding authorities of the Church, go home and repent of your sins, and put your households in order.

We have learned by sad experience that Bishops & Stake Pres. & even G.A.'s are not infallible & can have serious faults or sins that need to be identified & pointed out to the proper people.

To identify a leader's serious faults & try to get that leader help to repent, is not 'evil speaking'. It is a loving, responsible & righteous thing we are required to do.

We are to judge all leaders by their actions, far more than their words, to know if they are true disciples of Christ or not & to know if they are righteous & trustworthy to listen to & support.

To have blind faith or blind obedience in anyone only darkens our minds & causes us to become quickly deceived.

We are commanded to use the scriptures to judge righteously, especially leaders & their actions, their fruits, so we can be sure of who they really are.

[keeprunning]

Yeah, maybe if you know your church leader is committing adultery or something, but not if he just doesn't happen to be constantly talking about your topic of choice..

[Mark]

I have repeatedly asked you to put these quotes that Gideon posted in the book in the context you feel the author is giving them. You continue to refuse to do so. Instead you just accuse others who don't interpret the words of the author as you do as bearing false witness against him and falsely accusing him.

If I am misreading this authors words and He in fact did not refer to leadership of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints as the "proud descendents of Nauvoo" and the "new popes" or "mormon Pontiffs" in our day who proclaim the all is well in their Zion and have lost the sealing power please by all means properly correct me and set me straight. I will anxiously await your reply Jules.

She owes you nothing because you've already been told pages ago. Snuffer very carefully lays out the reasoning for his statements with historical examples. Gideon's quotes remove the context in which they were made. Without the contextual support they do sound strange, and the Snuffer post from his blog tells you that. The honest in heart will seek to understand these things before they condemn. The further I progress in the book the more clear it becomes that this book is not for everyone, which Snuffer also makes clear.

In respect to the priesthood issue, some things I read along those lines caused me consternation as well, and frankly I prayed to know what was withheld and I have received an answer. It is not the sealing power (although I suspect some sealings may be invalidated for various reasons) but something very great that the Lord wanted to give us. While the church does not have it, it can be obtained individually.

Please point me to the pages in this thread where my question has been fully explained gruden. I am sincerely trying to understand why this author has referred to leadership in the way that he did in the quotes given by Gideon. Also who is the book for? Would Pres. Monson be comfortable reading the book? How about Pres. Packer? I am not being flippant. Would the Lords Prophets today feel totally comfortable in endorsing the words spoken in this book to the body of Saints? If not why not?

[NoGreaterLove]

I do not see rated PG-13 movies for the same reason I do not read Denver's book. Some say a PG-13 is ok to see because it only has a few scenes of nudity or some violence or some cursing. They say the overall message of the movie is great, you have to see it, just ignore the bad parts.
Sound familiar?

But, I have said enough. I have posted my position and do not condemn others because they choose to read it. To each his own. We will all suffer the consequences of our choices.

[ATL Wake]

"I have repeatedly asked you to put these quotes that Gideon posted in the book in the context you feel the author is giving them. You continue to refuse to do so."

The book puts the words in context. Real knowledge does not proceed via sound bites. No one is going to spoon feed you, you are a grown up. If you want to know--read the book. If you don't want to read the book, fine, but stay quiet about it.

[kathyn]

Code: Select all

If you want to learn more about the gospel you have to do it on your own. The lessons at church will never give you the full and en-depth meat that you are looking for. If you want milk your whole life by all means enjoy your milk. However, many find that milk will not satisfy them any longer. Meat is for these people. Meat if chewed many times over is safe to consume however, if meat swallowed whole could choke a person to death. So you are counseled to study the milk and perfect it which is a lifetime pursuit and goal. However, while doing this there are those that would pursue meat and boy is there a lot of meat out there to chew on.

I have studied a lot of "meat" over the years. And don't appreciate the insinuation that if I don't embrace Snuffer's writing, then I am only satisfied with milk. I will probably read the book. I have read "The Second Comforter" but if I begin to get negative feelings when reading Passing the Heavenly Gift, I won't continue.

[Steve Clark]

I'm about 2/3 the way through the book. I haven't read all his others, only 2nd Comforter, Nephi's Isaiah and I read all of his blog. I decided to read this book now because I have been struggling with things lately and felt that this could help me come to grips with my observations and feelings. So far I am very satisfied. I feel closer to the Lord and have a greater desire to seek Him.

I do agree with Denver that this book is not for everybody. If I came across it 2 yrs ago I would have said the same thing Mark is saying. I do not feel Bro. Snuffer is an apostate. I believe he has had the experience he said he had, and I am glad he is willing to acknowledge the shortcomings we have in order to overcome them.

If you don't feel that this book is for you, don't read it.

[NoGreaterLove]

I think we have beat this subject to death. Just a suggestion, maybe we should not beat a dead horse anymore. I bow out.

[ATL Wake]

I will probably read the book. I have read "The Second Comforter" but if I begin to get negative feelings when reading Passing the Heavenly Gift, I won't continue.

I would recommend AGAINST reading the book IF you are not committed to FINISHING it. The book has a message. It requires the entire book to communicate that message. If you only read until you are uncomfortable you would be worse off than not reading it at all. The message as a whole is edifying. You will seek your Savior more fervently.

[gruden2.0]

I will probably read the book. I have read "The Second Comforter" but if I begin to get negative feelings when reading Passing the Heavenly Gift, I won't continue.

I would recommend AGAINST reading the book IF you are not committed to FINISHING it. The book has a message. It requires the entire book to communicate that message. If you only read until you are uncomfortable you would be worse off than not reading it at all. The message as a whole is edifying. You will seek your Savior more fervently.

I second that.

This book is for people who have read church history and are troubled by things like the Mountains Meadow Massacre, the blood atonement, the Danites, etc. Usually people go two routes with this: they ignore it or apostatize. Yet there is a third route.

One thing I considered posting several weeks ago but decided against it was a short essay on overcoming the Great Apostasy. This book prompted me to revisit it because that is what the book is about.

Many years ago when I was a college student I decided to abandon my inactivity and resume going to church. I had quite a number of spiritual experiences that encouraged me to continue in this path that told me there was greater meaning to what I was doing. I spent a lot of time with the scriptures and I started reading church history.

However, after a year or so, my reading turned up some rather ugly things in church history. I became very troubled and questioned how a true church could be associated with these things. It was a dark time for me, yet somehow I persevered and in the end was rewarded by a powerful experience with the Holy Ghost. I became converted, and now these things do not trouble me.

In time, I've observed other people run into the Great Apostasy, and many of them were overcome. I think many of them would be helped if we didn't ignore these things, but were more open and frank about them. They do not have to destroy our faith. Our faith and testimony should be independent of any other person's actions or words, past or present.

Snuffer's book is an attempt to address this issue, to be open and honest about things that have happened in church history and things that are happening now. These things can be overcome and our testimonies can emerge stronger. I believe that in this time period of earth's history all those that are on the path and progressing will inevitably encounter the Great Apostasy. We need to give people tools to overcome that. Sweeping it under the rug serves no one.

If, for whatever reason, certain events in church history or even certain things about the church today do not bother you, then this book probably isn't for you. If you have lingering doubts about certain things with the church, you will find this book especially valuable. I haven't finished it yet and it's already helped me ask new questions and learn new things.

[reese]

I would recommend AGAINST reading the book IF you are not committed to FINISHING it. The book has a message. It requires the entire book to communicate that message. If you only read until you are uncomfortable you would be worse off than not reading it at all. The message as a whole is edifying. You will seek your Savior more fervently.

I second that.

This book is for people who have read church history and are troubled by things like the Mountains Meadow Massacre, the blood atonement, the Danites, etc. Usually people go two routes with this: they ignore it or apostatize. Yet there is a third route.

One thing I considered posting several weeks ago but decided against it was a short essay on overcoming the Great Apostasy. This book prompted me to revisit it because that is what the book is about.

Many years ago when I was a college student I decided to abandon my inactivity and resume going to church. I had quite a number of spiritual experiences that encouraged me to continue in this path that told me there was greater meaning to what I was doing. I spent a lot of time with the scriptures and I started reading church history.

However, after a year or so, my reading turned up some rather ugly things in church history. I became very troubled and questioned how a true church could be associated with these things. It was a dark time for me, yet somehow I persevered and in the end was rewarded by a powerful experience with the Holy Ghost. I became converted, and now these things do not trouble me.

In time, I've observed other people run into the Great Apostasy, and many of them were overcome. I think many of them would be helped if we didn't ignore these things, but were more open and frank about them. They do not have to destroy our faith. Our faith and testimony should be independent of any other person's actions or words, past or present.

Snuffer's book is an attempt to address this issue, to be open and honest about things that have happened in church history and things that are happening now. These things can be overcome and our testimonies can emerge stronger. I believe that in this time period of earth's history all those that are on the path and progressing will inevitably encounter the Great Apostasy. We need to give people tools to overcome that. Sweeping it under the rug serves no one.

If, for whatever reason, certain events in church history or even certain things about the church today do not bother you, then this book probably isn't for you. If you have lingering doubts about certain things with the church, you will find this book especially valuable. I haven't finished it yet and it's already helped me ask new questions and learn new things.

And I second this gruden.

[AshleyB]

THURSDAY, OCTOBER 20, 2011

Reply to Questions
I was asked in an email to clarify some topics. I am posting this in response:

The appearance in 1836 in the Kirtland Temple does not appear to have fulfilled the return of Elijah. This is a topic the church is grappling with at the moment. Not at the bottom, where I live and write, but at the top. Though there are continuing statements made in public, behind the scenes there is a debate going on over the meaning of Elijah's appearance, when Joseph Smith received the sealing power, how he received it and whether the history should be revisited and clarified. I am setting out what I believe. It is for others to decide for themselves what they believe. But this is not as settled a subject as some public statements made for generations by the church make it appear.

Why does Joseph Smith omit mention of Elijah in his letter to the saints in September, 1842 (Section 128) if Elijah's return was completed in Kirtland in 1836?

Why does Oliver Cowdery never mention Elijah in his testimony about the restoration, though he does mention Moroni, the voice of God, John the Baptist and Peter, James and John?

Why does Joseph Smith speak of the return of Elijah as a future event in both January and March of 1844 if the Kirtland appearance satisfied the promise made in Malachi?

These are serious questions. There are people trying to answer them right now. I've provided my answer. Anyone is free to disagree with it. Anyone is free to decide it for themselves.

I don't think I am Elijah, and that's so stupid a proposition that I have a hard time even dignifying it with an answer. I want to say: "Are you serious???!!" But I'll leave it with, "no."

The sealing keys came to Joseph, like they came and were conferred upon Melchizedek and Nephi the same way. I explained it in Passing the Heavenly Gift. I'm not going to repeat it again here. It comes in only one way, that is by the Voice of God.

I've never said any church leader was "evil" or "of the devil." On the contrary, I've continually said they are the only ones entitled to lead the church, and no one has a right to interfere with their leading. No one has the right to call someone to any office in the church, collect tithing, or lead people away from the church. But EVERYONE has a duty to testify of the truth and to teach one another the doctrines of the kingdom. Therefore we are all under some obligation to declare what we believe, explain why, and defend it using the scriptures and declarations of the prophets. As to the analogy of church presidents to "Popes" that is J. Reuben Clark's terminology, as you can see in the book, and is not mine. I defer to him for that characterization. It is relevant to see how a member of the First Presidency viewed the role of the President and for that reason was included. I do not say whether I agree or disagree with his characterization, I only provide it. In fact, I do very little evaluating or concluding in Passing the Heavenly Gift. I merely set out what was said, done or written with the exception of one chapter which presumes, for purposes of that chapter, that the things promised in Section 124 were not delivered. Then, in light of that presumption, I explain what would then be the case. The book is an alternative view of history, which people are free to consider and reject. It is proposed as a way to grapple with inconsistencies and glaring problems which are not adequately reconcilable with the current stories we tell one another. I believe it is faith promoting. Particularly for those who are aware of the problems with our history. But, it is only faith promoting if you read the entire book. Reading only the first part will not be faith promoting, because it acknowledges the many problems and acquaints readers with the reasons why there is a crisis of faith among some of the most serious students of our history. I do not try to hide anything. It is or should be clear I'm not trying to shirk from difficulties. After setting it out, I then explain why I believe God's hand still lingers over the church and the saints. What is amusing to me is that one apostate reader thought it was too much an apologetic work (i.e. a defense of the church) for him to finish reading it. In other words, he thought it TOO faith promoting.

I do think the words of a dispensation head, in any dispensation, are binding upon all who follow. I do not think any prophet subsequent to Moses had the right to change Moses' teachings, for they were binding upon them. Until the Lord makes a change and opens a New Dispensation (which I expect Him to do personally), what Joseph Smith brought us is binding upon everyone, including all following prophets. We are told to be obedient to what we have received from him. (D&C 28: 2-3.) I believe that is still true. Meaning that no one, regardless of position or rank, can ignore what came through Joseph Smith except to their peril. Until a New Dispensation arrives, what Joseph Smith launched is supposed to remain intact.

"Elias" for our day is, I believe, Joseph Smith.

I expect Elijah to return the same way he departed. That's one of the great assignments to him. He must return because he will reopen the way through which others will follow. It will be, I believe, the same person as departed and not someone who self-proclaims or self-identifies as being "Elijah." It will be him. Not another. Anyone making that claim would (to me at least) be someone who does not understand the scriptures and is not to be take seriously.

I think that covers it. But I have to say the mischief comes from speculating, interpreting or emotionally reacting to the words I've written or spoken. Not in the words themselves. I try to be clear. The words are not attempting to "suggest" anything. Only to explain what I believe and why I believe as I do. They are the result of a great deal of work, which is set out in the text or footnotes, or bibliography.

[EmmaLee]

The appearance in 1836 in the Kirtland Temple does not appear to have fulfilled the return of Elijah. This is a topic the church is grappling with at the moment. Not at the bottom, where I live and write, but at the top. Though there are continuing statements made in public, behind the scenes there is a debate going on over the meaning of Elijah's appearance, when Joseph Smith received the sealing power, how he received it and whether the history should be revisited and clarified. But this is not as settled a subject as some public statements made for generations by the church make it appear.

Thank you very much for posting this from his blog - it clarified many things for me, so I appreciate it!

Regarding the portions above which I underlined - does Bro. Snuffer ever state how he knows these things? I mean, is he in communication with the First Presidency or Twelve? Any insight would be appreciated. Thanks!

[oneClimbs]

I've read the book and to be honest I think it is worth the read. The best part about it is that he takes all these individual threads that seem "apostate" if you will and weaves them into a simple message at the end that is wonderful.

My take on it is this: The Church getting driven west was not a blessing, it was a cursing, just like Israel being taken captive into Assyria. Let's face it, our prophet was killed and we were kicked out of the promised land and many blessings were put on hold. This, in a sense, was an apostasy, a falling away. Until Zion exists, any group of God's people is still technically somewhere along the broad spectrum of "apostasy".

So what does this mean? Well, first off, we do have the authority and the power of God may still be exercised through that authority, we have the ordinances, knowledge of our divine commission and for the most part, the whole church including the leaders are trying to bring us back to Zion. We are a lot better off today than we were dragging ourselves across the plains. We all know the prophecies about the church needing to be cleansed; we don't know how all encompassing this cleansing will be, but we understand that if there needs to be a cleansing then there must still be some filthiness among us know. To what degree, we do not know and do not feel comfortable speculating.

Whatever happened or is happening that may or may not have been 100% what the Lord wanted his church to be doing, it doesn't really matter. The book ends with this general concept, that regardless of what state the church may or may not be in, the people of this church will build Zion and when the Lord returns in glory it is this people that he will come to.

Think of the patterns of history. Israel, the Nephites, there were times they apostatized but didn't FULLY fall away or FULLY lose their authority, they were chastened for a time and when they turned back to the Lord, he accepted them once again.

I believe this happened with the LDS church. I believe that perversions, lack of consecration and pride caused us the loss of Joseph Smith and a forced exodus out of the territory of the United States of America. The church was sent into the wilderness to cleanse it. The Saints were blessed there, a good foundation was re-established and good things are returning and have been returning. Though many new tares have been sown, the wheat and the tares will grow together until it is time for a final cleansing and a final harvest so that Zion can be redeemed.

The book does a great job of explaining how all this can be and how it isn't a bad thing, it's just patterns repeating and that those patterns show that his people will not be forgotten and that you are foolish from dividing yourself from God's church, especially this critical time.

[SmallFarm]

Is this book available for free online?

[A Random Phrase]

Is this book available for free online?

No. It isn't. If I had an extra copy, I'd send you one, though. Sorry that I don't.

[Jason]

I do not see rated PG-13 movies for the same reason I do not read Denver's book. Some say a PG-13 is ok to see because it only has a few scenes of nudity or some violence or some cursing. They say the overall message of the movie is great, you have to see it, just ignore the bad parts.
Sound familiar?

But, I have said enough. I have posted my position and do not condemn others because they choose to read it. To each his own. We will all suffer the consequences of our choices.

So well said...