Passing the Heavenly Gift by Denver Snuffer

[Mahonri]

That's a very effective way to silence debate and if you want to disagree with that you'd better be sure you are on the Lords errand :ymcowboy:

[Original_Intent]

I like very much how Denver concludes that - "make sure you are on the Lord's errand".

I'll throw out speculation with the best of them but I always try to clarify when a view is my own and when I am stating doctrine. When making the claim of doctrine, I think we all need to exercise a bit more caution to be sure we are on the Lord's errand. To do otherwise is to trifle with the eternal salvation of others. I would go so far to say that EVEN IF WE ARE CORRECT, if we assert as facts things that we have not received solid confirmation on, we are treating others agency with disrespect and will be held accountable.

And I'd just like to clarify that that is just my own point of view, please consider, pray and come to your own conclusion ...

I also would like to add, again as my viewpoint, that we shouldn't necessarily share every thing we know - it is far to the advantage of the truthseeker to receive hints and directions to the truth rather than having it spelled out for them.

[AshleyB]

I am only about a chapter away from finishing the book. I had already decided I wont be posting tid bits from the book because I didn't want people to take them out of context. Gruden, you asked about what others thought about where we REALLY are. The main thing I want to say about my feelings is that I am more motivated to seek Christ then ever before. I wish I could shake Denver's hand and tell him thank you face to face for writing this book. It was just what I needed to help shake me further out of my slumber. As far as where we stand as a church and as a people I fear we are far worse off then most of us ever thought. I feel that personally I have been walking in a fog and now there are rays of light shinning through the fog directing me how to come out of it. It is interesting to me that I have slowly been waking up to our true conditions in this world and now I feel our true conditions as a church people is ever more focused and clear.

I thought I was one who did not proclaim all is well in Zion but even I didnt understand what that even means. Not completely. I fear that unless our attention is COMPLETELY focused on Christ and actually working towards seeking Him personally until we do then we are all condemned. We are told in the scriptures that the calamities would begin first in His house. I was thinking to myself, why would that be unless He is not happy with us? If He were and if we were a true Zion we would be protected and no wrath would be starting amongst us. But it really says something when we are told we will be the first to experience the wrath of God. We have to ask ourselves why that is?

This book has brought me down into the depths of humility or at least closer to it and because of it I am seeking further repentance and guidance from the Lord. I was in a rut and asking questions of the Lord and now this book has helped to answer some of those questions and leading me to ask more , and had I known what it contained and the affect it would have on me I would have ordered it sooner instead of waiting. As Denver said, it may not be for everyone and I can understand why some people are outraged. Because if they face these things it means change and sometimes the truth is not as fun as fiction. But for me at least it has brought me greater confidence in that I need to seek and absolutely to expect further light and knowledge that our Father promised to send. I am grateful for this church and its leaders and to be a part of it. It has been instrumental in preparing me for yet greater things. I hope many people will read this book and open their minds and hearts to what Denver has to say and suspend judgment of him. Then take what is said to the Lord and pray for yourself on your true standing and what you are supposed to do.

The one thing that I found that makes me "upset" is one thing that has always worried me and its something that I have talked to my husband about so many times before. About the fact that so many of the things Joseph taught and certain doctrines on calling and election and seeking the face of Christ are seen as unnecessary doctrines. They are seen as NOT necessary to our "salvation" when they are not only necessary to our salvation but it is dependent on our seeking further into the mysteries of godliness. And not only that but we are discouraged in the church to discuss and seek after those things. Leave the "mysteries" alone. And Ive heard others say if you seek further you are missing the mark and you will go apostate and that is just a flat out false teaching and it is upsetting because instead of leading people TO Christ it leads people away from Christ and those who promote that idea will be held accountable some day. I dont like that our gospel discussions in church are the same things over and over again and I have never liked that and the fact that they just touch on the very basics. And leave many important things out. I don't think Joseph would approve of this. Even so, we have no one to blame if we are missing information but ourselves because it is up to each of us to search further even until we retain a fullness. And until we do, we should never be content. Those are some of my thoughts on the matter.

[Jason]

I am only about a chapter away from finishing the book. I had already decided I wont be posting tid bits from the book because I didn't want people to take them out of context. Gruden, you asked about what others thought about where we REALLY are. The main thing I want to say about my feelings is that I am more motivated to seek Christ then ever before. I wish I could shake Denver's hand and tell him thank you face to face for writing this book. It was just what I needed to help shake me further out of my slumber. As far as where we stand as a church and as a people I fear we are far worse off then most of us ever thought. I feel that personally I have been walking in a fog and now there are rays of light shinning through the fog directing me how to come out of it. It is interesting to me that I have slowly been waking up to our true conditions in this world and now I feel our true conditions as a church people is ever more focused and clear.

I thought I was one who did not proclaim all is well in Zion but even I didnt understand what that even means. Not completely. I fear that unless our attention is COMPLETELY focused on Christ and actually working towards seeking Him personally until we do then we are all condemned. We are told in the scriptures that the calamities would begin first in His house. I was thinking to myself, why would that be unless He is not happy with us? If He were and if we were a true Zion we would be protected and no wrath would be starting amongst us. But it really says something when we are told we will be the first to experience the wrath of God. We have to ask ourselves why that is?

This book has brought me down into the depths of humility or at least closer to it and because of it I am seeking further repentance and guidance from the Lord. I was in a rut and asking questions of the Lord and now this book has helped to answer some of those questions and leading me to ask more , and had I known what it contained and the affect it would have on me I would have ordered it sooner instead of waiting. As Denver said, it may not be for everyone and I can understand why some people are outraged. Because if they face these things it means change and sometimes the truth is not as fun as fiction. But for me at least it has brought me greater confidence in that I need to seek and absolutely to expect further light and knowledge that our Father promised to send. I am grateful for this church and its leaders and to be a part of it. It has been instrumental in preparing me for yet greater things. I hope many people will read this book and open their minds and hearts to what Denver has to say and suspend judgment of him. Then take what is said to the Lord and pray for yourself on your true standing and what you are supposed to do.

The one thing that I found that makes me "upset" is one thing that has always worried me and its something that I have talked to my husband about so many times before. About the fact that so many of the things Joseph taught and certain doctrines on calling and election and seeking the face of Christ are seen as unnecessary doctrines. They are seen as NOT necessary to our "salvation" when they are not only necessary to our salvation but it is dependent on our seeking further into the mysteries of godliness. And not only that but we are discouraged in the church to discuss and seek after those things. Leave the "mysteries" alone. And Ive heard others say if you seek further you are missing the mark and you will go apostate and that is just a flat out false teaching and it is upsetting because instead of leading people TO Christ it leads people away from Christ and those who promote that idea will be held accountable some day. I dont like that our gospel discussions in church are the same things over and over again and I have never liked that and the fact that they just touch on the very basics. And leave many important things out. I don't think Joseph would approve of this. Even so, we have no one to blame if we are missing information but ourselves because it is up to each of us to search further even until we retain a fullness. And until we do, we should never be content. Those are some of my thoughts on the matter.

At the end of the day....progression is a personal issue....and I love Elder Uchtdorf's address to the sisters (lucky gals) -

Fourth, forget not the “why” of the gospel.

Sometimes, in the routine of our lives, we unintentionally overlook a vital aspect of the gospel of Jesus Christ, much as one might overlook a beautiful, delicate forget-me-not. In our diligent efforts to fulfill all of the duties and obligations we take on as members of the Church, we sometimes see the gospel as a long list of tasks that we must add to our already impossibly long to-do list, as a block of time that we must somehow fit into our busy schedules. We focus on what the Lord wants us to do and how we might do it, but we sometimes forget why.

My dear sisters, the gospel of Jesus Christ is not an obligation; it is a pathway, marked by our loving Father in Heaven, leading to happiness and peace in this life and glory and inexpressible fulfillment in the life to come. The gospel is a light that penetrates mortality and illuminates the way before us.

While understanding the “what” and the “how” of the gospel is necessary, the eternal fire and majesty of the gospel springs from the “why.” When we understand why our Heavenly Father has given us this pattern for living, when we remember why we committed to making it a foundational part of our lives, the gospel ceases to become a burden and, instead, becomes a joy and a delight. It becomes precious and sweet.

Let us not walk the path of discipleship with our eyes on the ground, thinking only of the tasks and obligations before us. Let us not walk unaware of the beauty of the glorious earthly and spiritual landscapes that surround us.

My dear sisters, seek out the majesty, the beauty, and the exhilarating joy of the “why” of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

The “what” and “how” of obedience mark the way and keep us on the right path. The “why” of obedience sanctifies our actions, transforming the mundane into the majestic. It magnifies our small acts of obedience into holy acts of consecration.

http://lds.org/general-conference/sessi ... 0?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[AshleyB]

The WHY of the gospel is to lead us back to God. The WHAT and HOW shows us the way. We need the knowledge of both to get there.

[reese]

I finished the book this week. I have lots of notes that I want to compile and post, but that will take some time as I am not very good at writing. But in the mean time, I would like to share a few quotes to get your thoughts. Before I do that, i want to point out that I have read Second Comforter and Beloved Enos, as well as part of Nephi's Isaiah, 18 Verses, Come Let us Adore Him, and Ten Parables. Until I read Passing the Heavenly Gift (PHG), brother Snuffer was my favorite LDS author. I disagree with some of things he has written in other books, but, for the most part I have gained a lot.

PHG is different. I found it to be a major departure from the tone, quality, and potential for good in his other books.

Page 414. “We claim to hold keys that would allow men filled with sin to forgive sins on earth and in heaven, to grant eternal life, or to bar from the kingdom of God. Using that false and useless claim, we slay the souls of men, thereby committing murder.”Brother Snuffer is clearly wrong on principle here

Page 432. “They were sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise. Those who fall short of this, and do not receive this witness from Christ in mortality but receive it afterwards, will be heirs of the Terrestrial Kingdom.” hmm yes and no?

Page 486. “The church now markets itself as an institution that will “strengthen families.” It does not inform its members, or prospective converts that the day will come they will be burned up unless they have connected to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob through Joseph Smith as the Dispensation head, in a necessary priestly ordinance.”this takes some study to learn, and I am not aware of it being taught in the Church

Page 47. “The current phase of Mormonism is missing the direct appearance of God, angels, and visions.”completely false

It is late, so I wont add any more tonight, but what do you think about these quotes?

This is from Denver's blog today:

My wife brought a matter to my attention which I thought I'd comment about again. I put up some cautions about how the new book was going to have those who wanted to take sensational statements out of context and put them on the Internet in isolation, separated from the many sources carefully assembled to lay a foundation to understand the statements. That has begun. I'd only remind those who are interested that anything can be made to look sensational if it is divorced from context. I could make the most benign of Joseph Smith's statements look fanatical and rob them of all meaning if I wanted to do so. But to understand the Prophet, it takes careful, even prayerful, study.

I have no agenda apart from explaining the truth as I understand it. But when I explain it, I give (particularly in the case of the latest book) enough historic and scriptural support that any conclusions are only an extension of what the Prophet, or the Book of Mormon, or the history itself compels us to conclude. The conclusions are rather anticlimactic. They are only the result of the accumulated and disclosed body of information preceding them. When, therefore, someone takes merely the conclusion and represents it as an accurate statement of what I've written, it is so gross a distortion that it is essentially untrue. Time, care, patience and great effort was taken to show the history for the benefit of the reader. Divorcing all that from a single sentence and parading it as what I think is, at best, a disservice.

But people crave the 'sound-bite' solution to everything. Therefore the cunning and fearful want to rush to expose and distort, in hopes to mislead and inoculate people from learning some things which help them find their way to the Lord. As I say in the book, I've been ministered to by the Lord. I'd caution those who want to distort what I've written to be careful, therefore, and prayerful (as I have been) in how they elect to proceed.

The souls of men are something no one should trifle with. I've never done so. I'd encourage others to avoid doing so unless they are certain they are on the Lord's errand.

Amen Denver. I was going to comment on providing a little context with those statements last night, but didn't have the energy to get into it.

[whatever]

delete

[Mahonri]

Re: Passing the Heavenly Gift by Denver Snuffer

Postby Mahonri » Fri Oct 07, 2011 11:44 am
That's a very effective way to silence debate and if you want to disagree with that you'd better be sure you are on the Lords errand :ymcowboy:

What debate?

The one about what he put into his book(s). People were sharing excerpts about what he put into his book that they disagreed with, and his response was to say/imply that if you are to disagree with him, you'd better be taking direct orders from Christ himself, otherwise...

[reese]

Re: Passing the Heavenly Gift by Denver Snuffer

Postby Mahonri » Fri Oct 07, 2011 11:44 am
That's a very effective way to silence debate and if you want to disagree with that you'd better be sure you are on the Lords errand :ymcowboy:

What debate?

The one about what he put into his book(s). People were sharing excerpts about what he put into his book that they disagreed with, and his response was to say/imply that if you are to disagree with him, you'd better be taking direct orders from Christ himself, otherwise...

Actually he said those who are trifling with the souls of men, by the comments they make, should be sure they are on the Lord's errand. His response to people disagreeing with him was to say anything can be made to sound completely opposite of its intent if divorced from the context in which it was said. But I suspect you already know that cowboy. :ymcowboy:

[AshleyB]

Yes, its funny that even his comments on other people taking his words out of context are taken out of context. :p

[Amore Vero]

Page 432. “They were sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise. Those who fall short of this, and do not receive this witness from Christ in mortality but receive it afterwards, will be heirs of the Terrestrial Kingdom.”

I agree with this statement, though those who receive it 'in the next life' may also go to the Telestial Kingdom, as well as the Terrestrial K. & even a 'few' who receive it 'in the next life' after having repented, may still be saved to even the Celestial Kingdom because of the sacrifice, love & merits of a valiant spouse or parent, as Joseph Smith & others taught.

[AshleyB]

hmm... I think you are right on that Amore vero

[gruden2.0]

That's a very effective way to silence debate and if you want to disagree with that you'd better be sure you are on the Lords errand

Snuffer does have a tendency to do that, I've noticed. There are plenty of things you can argue him over (I certainly did plenty reading 18 Verses). However, there are some things he KNOWS, and there are times when that really comes through, and arguing is simply kicking against the pricks.

When illuminated people know something, they speak authoritatively because of that position, especially when they have received it on the highest authority. I have no doubt that Snuffer has received certain things on that authority. You don't have to believe everything they say - nothing excuses us from thinking for ourselves - but at the very least we owe them and their testimony some careful consideration and thought, instead of rejecting it out of hand. That's where pride starts to show itself.

I don't always agree with what Snuffer says, but I will always listen and consider what he says. If Christ thought well enough of him to grant him a personal audience, maybe he's someone worth paying attention to.

[shadow]

The WHY of the gospel is to lead us back to God. The WHAT and HOW shows us the way. We need the knowledge of both to get there.

The shortest summary of section 42 I've ever read B-) . Thanks!

[Gideon]

Page 432. “They were sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise. Those who fall short of this, and do not receive this witness from Christ in mortality but receive it afterwards, will be heirs of the Terrestrial Kingdom.”

I agree with this statement, though those who receive it 'in the next life' may also go to the Telestial Kingdom, as well as the Terrestrial K. & even a 'few' who receive it 'in the next life' after having repented, may still be saved to even the Celestial Kingdom because of the sacrifice, love & merits of a valiant spouse or parent, as Joseph Smith & others taught.

3 Wherefore, I now send upon you another Comforter, even upon you my friends, that it may abide in your hearts, even the Holy Spirit of promise; which other Comforter is the same that I promised unto my disciples, as is recorded in the testimony of John.
4 This Comforter is the promise which I give unto you of eternal life, even the glory of the celestial kingdom;
5 Which glory is that of the church of the Firstborn, even of God, the holiest of all, through Jesus Christ his Son—
(D&C 88:3–5‎)‎

How can someone receive this after this life and go anywhere other than the top of the Celestial Kingdom?

[Gideon]

I don't always agree with what Snuffer says, but I will always listen and consider what he says. If Christ thought well enough of him to grant him a personal audience, maybe he's someone worth paying attention to.

That is how I felt, until I read this book. I have a hard time believing the words of those who refer to the prophets as "the new popes", "the Mormon Pontiff", and "the proud descendants of Nauvoo".

The major point that this book is built on, in my opinion, is that the church didn't complete the Nauvoo temple on time, and because of that they never received the fulness of the priesthood, and, therefore, do not have the sealing power. The church goes only downhill from there. From what I can tell, he doesn't seem to believe that the church has the Melchizedek priesthood at all. I would like him to correct me on that.

However, brother Snuffer can't prove his claim regarding the sealing power, and he offers no witness, other than his word. Are we supposed to reject the prophets and apostles on the testimony of one man? Well, people who believe in the church are not his intended audience. He wrote for those who have already rejected the church, as he has, and he attempts to show them how they can gain salvation in spite of their feelings about the church. According to him, the rest of us our are going to be destroyed anyway.

I think it would be great if he were to join this forum and explain himself. I definitely have a lot of questions for him.

[Mark]

I don't always agree with what Snuffer says, but I will always listen and consider what he says. If Christ thought well enough of him to grant him a personal audience, maybe he's someone worth paying attention to.

That is how I felt, until I read this book. I have a hard time believing the words of those who refer to the prophets as "the new popes", "the Mormon Pontiff", and "the proud descendants of Nauvoo".

The major point that this book is built on, in my opinion, is that the church didn't complete the Nauvoo temple on time, and because of that they never received the fulness of the priesthood, and, therefore, do not have the sealing power. The church goes only downhill from there. From what I can tell, he doesn't seem to believe that the church has the Melchizedek priesthood at all. I would like him to correct me on that.

However, brother Snuffer can't prove his claim regarding the sealing power, and he offers no witness, other than his word. Are we supposed to reject the prophets and apostles on the testimony of one man? Well, people who believe in the church are not his intended audience. He wrote for those who have already rejected the church, as he has, and he attempts to show them how they can gain salvation in spite of their feelings about the church. According to him, the rest of us our are going to be destroyed anyway.

I think it would be great if he were to join this forum and explain himself. I definitely have a lot of questions for him.

If your observations are correct here Gideon then that tells me all I need to know about this author. I sincerely hope for his sake that you may be misreading what he is trying to express. :-ss

[whatever]

delete

[Mark]

If your observations are correct here Gideon then that tells me all I need to know about this author. I sincerely hope for his sake that you may be misreading what he is trying to express. :-ss

WOW - perhaps you should actually read it yourself.

I'm anxious to hear your rebuttal to what Gideon has expressed here whatever. I have read nothing of this author so that is why I expressed concern for the author if he in fact was trashing the church as Gideon described. By all means tell me if you have read his book why Gideon is misreading or misunderstanding him.

[AshleyB]

That's not really what I got out of the book. The part about Nauvoo and everything for sure. By the way...the evidence there is pretty conclusive in my opinion that we certainly did not receive of the fulness as a church. That doesn't mean we can't still go on to receive a fulness on an individual basis. And that is to me what the message of the book was. To me these were the key points in the book: A - A call to repentance and to awake others to our truly awful situation and remind us not to think too high and mighty of ourselves as a "chosen" people, otherwise we are just the same as the Israelites were. B. To point out the one way to Christ and how dangerous it is to become complacent and put our salvation on someone else. I dont think that Denver has rejected the church at all. In the book he talked about how no one really gets to a point where they get passed needing the church and that it still contains much truth and ordinances that are necessary to our exaltation. Just because someone may have some disagreements about some things it doesnt mean they have rejected the church. But really, its not about the institution. Its about Christ. The institution helps to lead us to Christ but the institution is not what saves. That was his message and I thought it was very powerful and true. I also, for one thought that it was a breath of fresh air that he came out and talked about how the brethren are not perfect and infallible. But thats not really even the point. Either way, they do not save us. They are supposed to point us to Christ and we should all be followers of Christ and not any prophet not matter who they are.



I am not a follower of apollos, or paul, or president Monson. I am a follower of Christ. And that is what we all should be and that was the theme through out the book. To seek Christ for ourselves and not lean on anyone else. I thought the book was a sober look at reality and also an uplifting message filled with reminders and hope. You also said people who believe in the church are not his intended audience. Perhaps you are right. I understand what you mean there. But, I also think that was kind of part of the point. Is it the institution "the church" we are to "believe" in? Or Christ and the Gospel?

Also as far as the sealing powers go I felt there was a lot of evidence to support that we did not receive the fulness but not much to support that we did just based on scriptures alone. The temple was never fully finished even two years after Joseph's death and even after that a tornado and fire brought the rest of it to the ground. Christ did not visit it. It was not made a holy ground. It was destroyed. And the saints were moved out of their place and had to endure many hardships.

10 For the day of my visitation cometh speedily, in an ahour when ye think not of; and where shall be the safety of my people, and refuge for those who shall be left of them?

31 But I command you, all ye my saints, to abuild a house unto me; and I grant unto you a sufficient time to build a house unto me; and during this time your baptisms shall be acceptable unto me.

32 But behold, at the end of this appointment your baptisms for your dead shall not be acceptable unto me; and if you do not these things at the end of the appointment ye shall be rejected as a church, with your dead, saith the Lord your God.

33 For verily I say unto you, that aafter you have had sufficient time to build a house to me, wherein the ordinance of baptizing for the dead belongeth, and for which the same was instituted from before the foundation of the world, your baptisms for your dead cannot be acceptable unto me;

34 For therein are the akeys of the holy priesthood ordained, that you may receive honor and glory.

35 And after this time, your baptisms for the dead, by those who are scattered abroad, are not acceptable unto me, saith the Lord.

36 For it is ordained that in Zion, and in her stakes, and in Jerusalem, those places which I have appointed for arefuge, shall be the places for your baptisms for your dead.


40 And verily I say unto you, let this ahouse be built unto my name, that I may reveal mine ordinances therein unto my people;

41 For I deign to areveal unto my church things which have been kept bhid from before the foundation of the world, things that pertain to the dispensation of the cfulness of times.

42 And aI will show unto my servant Joseph all things pertaining to this house, and the priesthood thereof, and the place whereon it shall be built.

43 And ye shall build it on the place where you have contemplated building it, for that is the spot which I have chosen for you to build it.

44 If ye labor with all your might, I will consecrate that spot that it shall be made aholy.

45 And if my people will hearken unto my voice, and unto the voice of my aservants whom I have appointed to lead my people, behold, verily I say unto you, they shall not be moved out of their place.

46 But if they will not ahearken to my voice, nor unto the voice of these men whom I have appointed, they shall not be blest, because they bpollute mine holy grounds, and mine holy ordinances, and charters, and my holy words which I give unto them.

47 And it shall come to pass that if you build a house unto my name, and do not do the things that I say, I will not perform the aoath which I make unto you, neither fulfil the promises which ye expect at my hands, saith the Lord.

48 For ainstead of blessings, ye, by your own works, bring cursings, wrath, indignation, and judgments upon your own heads, by your follies, and by all your abominations, which you practise before me, saith the Lord.


As I went back and read the scriptures...the scriptures are really what got my attention. Based purely on the scriptures there is much evidence to support that it did not happen the way it was supposed to and therefore we were rejected.

Also, he is correct I believe about the sealing powers only being conferred on an individual by Christ. But, to me when I was reading I felt like the spirit of the message was to get people to see not all is well in zion but that it doesn't matter because as long as we are not under false pretenses then we can approach the Lord and receive all we are intended to receive personally from Him. When I was reading the book I felt he wrote it because he cares for the welfare of his fellow saints and that he doesnt want anyone to be left out of the marriage feast. I am glad he wrote it. I have grown tired of all of the feel good stuff. Sometimes a reality check is just what I need. He certainly knew that writing this book was not going to bring him popularity. Sobering messages of the need to repent never bring that. As I have prayed on these things I have felt that his intentions were honorable in-spite of what his words may provoke or cause others to feel. I can certainly understand why some people might struggle with what they read because its not the norm of what we usually hear in church and sometimes that can be scary when you feel like everything is not always what you thought. Its like having the rug pulled out from under you. In essence his message is one that leads to Christ and Christ alone and to me that also proves his true intent. But that is my own personal feelings. Everyone must get their own answer.

Those are my thoughts. I respect others opinions and everyone has their own interpretation. Thats good. I just thought I would add mine for what ever it may be worth. I really hope that those who haven't read the book will do so for themselves and then make your own judgement. If you end up thinking he is wrong or evil that's ok but at least you would have given it a full hearing and decided for yourselves. I wouldn't want anyone to miss out on a message that could really be instrumental in helping them to seek the Lord. One thing I have learned is that you can't always take someone elses word for things. If I had done that I never would have read the book of mormon because I was taught it was evil and would lead me to worship Satan but as I read it I lead me to Christ. This book may not be as important as the book of mormon but the same rule applies. If it tesitfy's and leads a person to Christ then you know where the message comes from.

[Gideon]

If your observations are correct here Gideon then that tells me all I need to know about this author. I sincerely hope for his sake that you may be misreading what he is trying to express. :-ss

WOW - perhaps you should actually read it yourself.

I hope I am misreading him also. Perhaps others who have read the entire book can correct me. For those so inclined, here is a list of my problems with this book:

1. He claims that the church doesn't have the sealing power, but he doesn't even consider that it could have been restored in Logan, Manti, or Salt Lake City.
2. He claims that the leaders of the church are evil, filled with sin, and inspired of the devil, and that those who believe the gospel they are teaching are going to hell.
3. That the church has been rejected and cursed by God, and that most of the members will be destroyed in the coming "holocaust".
4. That the brethren do not have appearances from God or angels, and they do not see visions. (I wonder, did he attend the first session of the Nauvoo temple dedication?).
5. That the general handbook is deliberately perpetuating racist feelings towards blacks.
6. When he lists the things the church is authorized to do, they are all Aaronic priesthood functions, therefore, he doesn't believe that the church has the Melchizedek priesthood. He actually compares the church to that of ancient Israel when they lost the Melchizedek priesthood.
7. The members are going to be burned up because they haven't been sealed to Joseph Smith
8. God will destroy the church, and the few who are left will assist the Book of Mormon people in building the New Jerusalem
9. Members aspiring for office and second anointing, when almost no one knows about second anointing.
10. He quotes:
That they may be conferred upon us, it is true; but when we undertake to cover our sins, or to gratify our pride, our vain ambition, or to exercise control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness, behold, the heavens withdraw themselves; the Spirit of the Lord is grieved; and when it is withdrawn, Amen to the priesthood or the authority of that man.
(D&C 121:37‎)‎
and states that whenever someone exercises unrighteous dominion they lose their priesthood, and all of the ordinances they perform after that are invalid. If someone in this state ordains an elder, all of the new elder's ordinances are invalid, because he really doesn't hold the priesthood. What he misses here is that a man loses his priesthood not when he exercises unrighteous dominion, but when the Spirit of the Lord withdraws.
11. He says that the term "fullness of the gospel" means fulness of the priesthood. The Lord, in a couple of places in the D&C states that the fulness of the gospel is contained in the Book of Mormon.
12. 3 Nephi 16:13 - 16, and 1 Nephi 13:30 - 34, are speaking directly of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
13. He seems to believe that there is "one mighty and strong" coming to fix the church.
14. He says that this book isn't for everyone. Then who is it for? Just those few enlightened enough to see that we are being led by false prophets? Are they the only ones worthy enough in his sight to be warned about the destruction coming upon the church?
15. In the beginning of the book, the church is cursed, condemned, rejected by God and slated for destruction. But at the end, it is God's blueprint for us, even though some parts are missing and it has been scribbled on.

To his credit, brother Snuffer acknowledges at both the beginning and the end of the book, that he did not have access to the Church Archives, so there could be many more things that support his claims, or there might be many which refute them completely.

I want to emphasize one more thing about the prophets and apostles. If brother Snuffer's assessment is correct, then all of them are false prophets. Christ warned that there would be false prophets in the last days, and that we would know them by their fruits. What are the fruits of the latter-day prophets and apostles?

[AshleyB]

I personally dont agree with some of the conclusions you came to. I feel you are adding claims to some of his words that are not there. You have added words to his and that could be considered misleading. I dont have time to go down the list right now. But also, its not really important for me to convince you to see it my way. You should see things in your own way. :ymhug: I just really want others to read it for themselves regardless of what any of us say. I hope they will.

[Lady Believer]

Gideon,

Maybe you better think twice about reading the Book of Isaiah too, because he comes to many of the same conclusions. Not to mention Mormon, and several other Book of Mormon prophets. :-ss

[Mark]

If your observations are correct here Gideon then that tells me all I need to know about this author. I sincerely hope for his sake that you may be misreading what he is trying to express. :-ss

WOW - perhaps you should actually read it yourself.

I hope I am misreading him also. Perhaps others who have read the entire book can correct me. For those so inclined, here is a list of my problems with this book:

1. He claims that the church doesn't have the sealing power, but he doesn't even consider that it could have been restored in Logan, Manti, or Salt Lake City.
2. He claims that the leaders of the church are evil, filled with sin, and inspired of the devil, and that those who believe the gospel they are teaching are going to hell.
3. That the church has been rejected and cursed by God, and that most of the members will be destroyed in the coming "holocaust".
4. That the brethren do not have appearances from God or angels, and they do not see visions. (I wonder, did he attend the first session of the Nauvoo temple dedication?).
5. That the general handbook is deliberately perpetuating racist feelings towards blacks.
6. When he lists the things the church is authorized to do, they are all Aaronic priesthood functions, therefore, he doesn't believe that the church has the Melchizedek priesthood. He actually compares the church to that of ancient Israel when they lost the Melchizedek priesthood.
7. The members are going to be burned up because they haven't been sealed to Joseph Smith
8. God will destroy the church, and the few who are left will assist the Book of Mormon people in building the New Jerusalem
9. Members aspiring for office and second anointing, when almost no one knows about second anointing.
10. He quotes:
That they may be conferred upon us, it is true; but when we undertake to cover our sins, or to gratify our pride, our vain ambition, or to exercise control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness, behold, the heavens withdraw themselves; the Spirit of the Lord is grieved; and when it is withdrawn, Amen to the priesthood or the authority of that man.
(D&C 121:37‎)‎
and states that whenever someone exercises unrighteous dominion they lose their priesthood, and all of the ordinances they perform after that are invalid. If someone in this state ordains an elder, all of the new elder's ordinances are invalid, because he really doesn't hold the priesthood. What he misses here is that a man loses his priesthood not when he exercises unrighteous dominion, but when the Spirit of the Lord withdraws.
11. He says that the term "fullness of the gospel" means fulness of the priesthood. The Lord, in a couple of places in the D&C states that the fulness of the gospel is contained in the Book of Mormon.
12. 3 Nephi 16:13 - 16, and 1 Nephi 13:30 - 34, are speaking directly of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
13. He seems to believe that there is "one mighty and strong" coming to fix the church.
14. He says that this book isn't for everyone. Then who is it for? Just those few enlightened enough to see that we are being led by false prophets? Are they the only ones worthy enough in his sight to be warned about the destruction coming upon the church?
15. In the beginning of the book, the church is cursed, condemned, rejected by God and slated for destruction. But at the end, it is God's blueprint for us, even though some parts are missing and it has been scribbled on.

To his credit, brother Snuffer acknowledges at both the beginning and the end of the book, that he did not have access to the Church Archives, so there could be many more things that support his claims, or there might be many which refute them completely.

I want to emphasize one more thing about the prophets and apostles. If brother Snuffer's assessment is correct, then all of them are false prophets. Christ warned that there would be false prophets in the last days, and that we would know them by their fruits. What are the fruits of the latter-day prophets and apostles?

These are very serious allegations made here Gideon that if true just #1 and 2 on your list alone are the very definition of apostate declaration. Can you be so kind as to quote these allegations in the authors own words? If he in fact is teaching this kind of thing he should be exposed for all to see.

[Amore Vero]

[quote="Gideon]
Page 432. “They were sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise. Those who fall short of this, and do not receive this witness from Christ in mortality but receive it afterwards, will be heirs of the Terrestrial Kingdom.”

How can someone receive this after this life and go anywhere other than the top of the Celestial Kingdom?[/quote]





Because the Holy Spirit of Promise has to do with attaining 'perfect love', which everyone must eventually repent & attain, in this life or the next.

But even though everyone will eventually attain this 'perfect love' in the next life at some point, does not mean they will go to the Celestial Kingdom, if they merited 'a lower kingdom' because of their earthly deeds.

We must attain 'perfect love' in this life, as Joseph Smith taught, to be assured of the Celestial Kingdom.