Passing the Heavenly Gift by Denver Snuffer

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Mark
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Re: Passing the Heavenly Gift by Denver Snuffer

Post by Mark »

Page 303.
"'The saints still claim we fulfilled everything required by the revelation in January, 1841 (Section124). The proud descendants of Nauvoo, who have always retained control of the church's top leadership positions, claim to hold all the keys ever given to Joseph Smith. They teach that they can bind on earth and in heaven. They are the 'new Popes having the authority the Catholic Pope claims to possess, as J. Reuben Clark remarked. According to their account of the historical narrative, all is well in their Zion. They intend to build Zion some day, wen they get around to it. In the meantime, they continually curtail the scope of the restored faith, reducing the topics authorized to be taught in Sunday School, Priesthood, and Relief Society. Working to move farther and farther from what will be required for Zion. Their plan seems at odds with the end they seek.' (emphasis added)."


Just this statement alone should cause every faithful LDS to run for the exits. I mean come on now. If someone like Sterling Allen had said this everyone on this board would be condemning them for continuing to violate the covenant of not speaking evil of the Lords anointed servants. Well almost everyone..

PS I'll bet Allen did make this very statement more than once come to think of it. Is Sterling one of the ghost writers? LOL

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shadow
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Re: Passing the Heavenly Gift by Denver Snuffer

Post by shadow »

[quote=]Page 303.
"'The saints still claim we fulfilled everything required by the revelation in January, 1841 (Section124). The proud descendants of Nauvoo, who have always retained control of the church's top leadership positions, claim to hold all the keys ever given to Joseph Smith. They teach that they can bind on earth and in heaven. They are the 'new Popes having the authority the Catholic Pope claims to possess, as J. Reuben Clark remarked. According to their account of the historical narrative, all is well in their Zion. They intend to build Zion some day, wen they get around to it. In the meantime, they continually curtail the scope of the restored faith, reducing the topics authorized to be taught in Sunday School, Priesthood, and Relief Society. Working to move farther and farther from what will be required for Zion. Their plan seems at odds with the end they seek.' (emphasis added)."
[/quote]
People recommend reading this crap? Those with a "Heavenly Gift" will pass over this stuff and see the tare for what he is and not what he thinks he is.

Amore Vero
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Re: Passing the Heavenly Gift by Denver Snuffer

Post by Amore Vero »

Gideon wrote: 2 Nephi 28:20-26, which he believes refers to the church today,
Well, I agree with him on this point, that 2 Nephi 28 is talking about the members today, though I don't agree with everything he believes & claims.

reese
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Re: Passing the Heavenly Gift by Denver Snuffer

Post by reese »

Gideon,
I am going to assume you are sincere and you really do not see where Snuffer is coming from. So I have a few questions. Who exactly do you think that Nephi is talking about in 2Nephi 28, if not the people of the last days, including the LDS's?

You quoted Denver, quoting the Lord in D&C where he says any degree of unrighteousnes and amen to the priesthood of that man. Denver says yes indeed it puts us in a very precarious postion if it is true. That an ordinance performed by an unrighteous(in any degree, does that included pride, anger etc? How picky is the Lord on this?)man may not be valid. However he does remind us that it is the Lord who said these things so we are fooish if we don't at least consider the possibility that He meant it when He said it. To assume otherwise would be what the caltholic church had to do early on, as he clearly demonstates in the book.

Have you ever read sec. 124 in D&C? What is your understanding of it. To me it is damning. The Lord is very clear about what had to happen in order for the church to be given that which they lost. If they had, they would not have had to leave Navoo, according to the Lord. If they had, the temple and its "spot of land" would have been consecrated, according to the Lord. I have read sec. 124 over and over. I cannot see it meaning anything other than what Snuffer says he thinks it means. By the way I had come to this conclusion before reading Snuffer's book. His book just clarified everything I was putting together myself.

Am I understanding from one of your comments that you have not read the entire book? If so that would explain a lot. Also I honestly don't see how you didn't get the same message from his other books. This one just provides more data to back it up, and gets a lot more specific in the details.

He says that the sealing power cannot be passed from one man to another, it comes from the Lord himself. Actually the Lord says that, clearly in the scriptures. So if it is possible that the sealing power died with Joseph and Hyrum, as sec 124 would seem to indicate. Then the only way we could judge as to whether we have it now would be on works, or the fruits. The only person we can use to compare would be Joseph Smith as we know he had the sealing power. Off the top of my head he produced revelation after revelation. He clearly had power over the elements as shown during Zion's camp among other places. What else?.... Seems like everyone in the scriptures that had the sealing power, used it. It does not make much sense to have it and never use it.

I liked Snuffer's book. Actually I loved it. The last three of four chapters were nothing short of inspiration. You quoted him stating that the church has essentially "dumbed down" the gospel. I think that is true. I have been a member my whole life and have never been taught anything about the 2nd Comforter, or calling and election, or even being baptized by the holy ghost and fire. It was not until I started reading outside of "church published and approved" information that I learned anything about this stuff. And yet I read Joseph Smiths comments and teachings and he was ALWAYS teaching these things. What does that mean? Why have I never heard the words "recieving the 2nd Comforter or having your calling and election made sure" spoken in any general conference? Have any of you, have I just missed it? I don't see there being much of a point to the gospel if these things are not the aim or point of it. But then again I am slightly idealist, maybe others are happy to settle for less.

All I know is that we are not the same church as Joseph restored. Our teachings sound nothing like the teachings I read from him. I came to that conclusion a few years ago. Snuffers book just makes sense of it. Actually I think it gives someone hope who is aware of these things. And like he says over and over in his book we should remain with the church. It is the Lord's church. We may be under condemnation as were the children of Israel, but we are still His, as were they.

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Mark
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Re: Passing the Heavenly Gift by Denver Snuffer

Post by Mark »

JulesGP wrote:
whatever wrote:From Denver's Blog:

I put up some cautions about how the new book was going to have those who wanted to take sensational statements out of context and put them on the Internet in isolation, separated from the many sources carefully assembled to lay a foundation to understand the statements. That has begun. I'd only remind those who are interested that anything can be made to look sensational if it is divorced from context. I could make the most benign of Joseph Smith's statements look fanatical and rob them of all meaning if I wanted to do so. But to understand the Prophet, it takes careful, even prayerful, study.

I have no agenda apart from explaining the truth as I understand it. But when I explain it, I give (particularly in the case of the latest book) enough historic and scriptural support that any conclusions are only an extension of what the Prophet, or the Book of Mormon, or the history itself compels us to conclude. The conclusions are rather anticlimactic. They are only the result of the accumulated and disclosed body of information preceding them. When, therefore, someone takes merely the conclusion and represents it as an accurate statement of what I've written, it is so gross a distortion that it is essentially untrue. Time, care, patience and great effort was taken to show the history for the benefit of the reader. Divorcing all that from a single sentence and parading it as what I think is, at best, a disservice.

But people crave the 'sound-bite' solution to everything. Therefore the cunning and fearful want to rush to expose and distort, in hopes to mislead and inoculate people from learning some things which help them find their way to the Lord. As I say in the book, I've been ministered to by the Lord. I'd caution those who want to distort what I've written to be careful, therefore, and prayerful (as I have been) in how they elect to proceed.

The souls of men are something no one should trifle with. I've never done so. I'd encourage others to avoid doing so unless they are certain they are on the Lord's errand.

. . . . ain't that the truth.
I cannot believe how many people are ignoring this....... 8-|

So put these statements into context Jules. They sure appear damning on the surface. How do you interpret what he is saying any other way than an attack against those who serve in the quorums of leadership in this church?

reese
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Re: Passing the Heavenly Gift by Denver Snuffer

Post by reese »

JulesGP wrote:
whatever wrote:From Denver's Blog:

I put up some cautions about how the new book was going to have those who wanted to take sensational statements out of context and put them on the Internet in isolation, separated from the many sources carefully assembled to lay a foundation to understand the statements. That has begun. I'd only remind those who are interested that anything can be made to look sensational if it is divorced from context. I could make the most benign of Joseph Smith's statements look fanatical and rob them of all meaning if I wanted to do so. But to understand the Prophet, it takes careful, even prayerful, study.

I have no agenda apart from explaining the truth as I understand it. But when I explain it, I give (particularly in the case of the latest book) enough historic and scriptural support that any conclusions are only an extension of what the Prophet, or the Book of Mormon, or the history itself compels us to conclude. The conclusions are rather anticlimactic. They are only the result of the accumulated and disclosed body of information preceding them. When, therefore, someone takes merely the conclusion and represents it as an accurate statement of what I've written, it is so gross a distortion that it is essentially untrue. Time, care, patience and great effort was taken to show the history for the benefit of the reader. Divorcing all that from a single sentence and parading it as what I think is, at best, a disservice.

But people crave the 'sound-bite' solution to everything. Therefore the cunning and fearful want to rush to expose and distort, in hopes to mislead and inoculate people from learning some things which help them find their way to the Lord. As I say in the book, I've been ministered to by the Lord. I'd caution those who want to distort what I've written to be careful, therefore, and prayerful (as I have been) in how they elect to proceed.

The souls of men are something no one should trifle with. I've never done so. I'd encourage others to avoid doing so unless they are certain they are on the Lord's errand.

. . . . ain't that the truth.
I cannot believe how many people are ignoring this....... 8-|
Oh come on Jules, don't you know its much easier to make a decision.(period), Than it is to make an educated decision.

AshleyB
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Re: Passing the Heavenly Gift by Denver Snuffer

Post by AshleyB »

You can continue to make judgments on a book you have never read and stay ignorant on the matter or read it for yourself. If you still feel the same way then so be it. I am personally not someone who condemns anyone for their beliefs. I don't condemn Gideon even though we clearly disagree. Who am I to do so? My concern is where I stand with the Lord. Its not for me to judge what others may think or do. Joseph was a strong advocate for a man being able to believe as he will and he actually knew of a man who was wrong and yet, did not condemn him for his belief. I can't find the quote but Joseph told others to leave a man alone and allow him to be free to believe as he will...It's not for any of us to judge Denver and say he is "apostate". What you or I think of each other or of him is no matter though. We are to love one another. We are each free to choose. As for me, I will stand with the Lord and what the scriptures say. Even hard words of repentance if they are what brings me closer to the Lord. Also, as far as speaking evil of the Lord's anointed goes. That goes for anyone who has received endowments supposedly. Denver if he is telling the truth and I believe he is, really has been anointed by the Lord Himself. Yet, others see no problem with speaking evil of him. Its quite the double standard isn't it?

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Jason
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Re: Passing the Heavenly Gift by Denver Snuffer

Post by Jason »

Mark wrote:So put these statements into context Jules. They sure appear damning on the surface. How do you interpret what he is saying any other way than an attack against those who serve in the quorums of leadership in this church?
Have you read any of his books Mark???

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Re: Passing the Heavenly Gift by Denver Snuffer

Post by AshleyB »

Also, on another subject that kind of has to do with this. I will share my thoughts. I'm sure many will disagree but this is something I have thought for quite sometime now. Before ever reading Denver's book but after reading it..those ideas were solidified for me. He does not say this in his book. Just to make that clear. It is my personal opinion that before Zion is built a Prophet will arise outside of the church. We know of two who will arise and preach in Jerusalem. But I think one will arise here and he will not be within the hierarchy of the church. Maybe they will be a part of it possibly but I definitely don't think they will be in a high position. In the scriptures those who were charged to lead the saints and especially from destruction were never a part of the church Hierarchy. They received their powers directly from Heaven as it is always done. It is God's pattern as I have noticed. Christ Himself was not of an esteemed position in the church. This is one of the reason's the pharisees would not listen to Him. It is the pride of others to always think they know everything. We all have a tendency to think that way. I think this will take place and that it will test the faith of many saints and that it will be one of those things that separates the wheat from the tares. It will be up to the individual to seek their own revelation and whether they will hear His voice or not. But one is always sent before hand to prepare the way before Him. Just some of my thoughts. What are your thoughts on this Reese? If you are inclined to share that is.

Amore Vero
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Re: Passing the Heavenly Gift by Denver Snuffer

Post by Amore Vero »

reese wrote: Why have I never heard the words "recieving the 2nd Comforter or having your calling and election made sure" spoken in any general conference?
Joseph Smith taught that we only receive our 'calling & election made sure' when we have acquired 'perfect unconditional love'. From what I have seen most members don't want to hear or do what it takes to have 'perfect love', so that's why I believe they rarely talk about it in Gen. Conf.

Rand
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Re: Passing the Heavenly Gift by Denver Snuffer

Post by Rand »

This is fascinating to read from a distance. Those who don't like it, see one thing, those who did, are apologizing, my words and view, for Denver Snuffers book and teachings. It seems so controversial.

The thing that has remained on my mind since reading the first half of The Second Comforter, (I loaned it to a friend, and they lost it, I just got a new copy,) is Joseph F. Smiths comment(which I can't put my finger on now) about when ever he hears about a brother who has seen Christ, he becomes concerned for their salvation. They begin to feel they are better than everyone else. Paraphrasing miserably, but the point remains, it looks like Bro. Snuffer may have fallen into this a little. I am surprised he is sharing as much as he does about his implied personal experiences with the Savior. Just feels kind of ... wrong. Even the public claim is ... awkward.

I won't criticize his book, or him. Just share that thought. Given what controversy this has caused, I think I will stick with the scriptures and let the spirit teach. In the end, it seems he is setting himself up on a bit of a superior position than the prophet, or should I call him the pope?

The other note is we have people on this forum, I will call the Bobites, who contend through revelation that everyone is going to the Celestial kingdom, and the new faction the Snufferites that contend that unless you have been sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise in this life you are Telestial or Terrestrial material at best.

Me, I just know I felt a sweet spirit during general conference, and still believe the witness given me by the Spirit that Pres. Monson is THE living oracle and prophet on the earth, and he does hold the sealing power.

reese
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Re: Passing the Heavenly Gift by Denver Snuffer

Post by reese »

thebestsun wrote:Also, on another subject that kind of has to do with this. I will share my thoughts. I'm sure many will disagree but this is something I have thought for quite sometime now. Before ever reading Denver's book but after reading it..those ideas were solidified for me. He does not say this in his book. Just to make that clear. It is my personal opinion that before Zion is built a Prophet will arise outside of the church. We know of two who will arise and preach in Jerusalem. But I think one will arise here and he will not be within the hierarchy of the church. Maybe they will be a part of it possibly but I definitely don't think they will be in a high position. In the scriptures those who were charged to lead the saints and especially from destruction were never a part of the church Hierarchy. They received their powers directly from Heaven as it is always done. It is God's pattern as I have noticed. Christ Himself was not of an esteemed position in the church. This is one of the reason's the pharisees would not listen to Him. It is the pride of others to always think they know everything. We all have a tendency to think that way. I think this will take place and that it will test the faith of many saints and that it will be one of those things that separates the wheat from the tares. It will be up to the individual to seek their own revelation and whether they will hear His voice or not. But one is always sent before hand to prepare the way before Him. Just some of my thoughts. What are your thoughts on this Reese? If you are inclined to share that is.
I agree 100%. It has been what the Lord has always done. Why on earth would he start to alter his patterns now. This man will have no credentials what so ever. The only thing he will have are his words. It will be the perfect test. Will we do what Nephi says most of us will do and rely on the arm of flesh, or will we take the holy spirit to be our guide and follow where it leads us? Even if it goes against everything we have been taught? Even if your led to the side with only a few? It will polarize everyone. Nephi is clear that the choice will be unto eternal life or unto damnation. There will be no middle ground.

It will be the same test that Jesus himself purposed when he came in the flesh. He only had his words and his works for people to make a judgment on. Would they believe the words of everlasting life coming from a poor, simple nobody, from a dirty little vilage? Or would they stand by their leaders, the ones with the authority, passed down generation after generation? Would they lean on the arm of flesh or the holy spirit to guide them in their choice? Did they know their shepards voice, and follow him. Or were they following a different shepard, their own interpretaion of who the shepard is and how he works, all the while thinking they were being led by the one true God.

It amazes me sometimes how similar we are to the children of Israel....

reese
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Re: Passing the Heavenly Gift by Denver Snuffer

Post by reese »

Rand wrote:This is fascinating to read from a distance. Those who don't like it, see one thing, those who did, are apologizing, my words and view, for Denver Snuffers book and teachings. It seems so controversial.

The thing that has remained on my mind since reading the first half of The Second Comforter, (I loaned it to a friend, and they lost it, I just got a new copy,) is Joseph F. Smiths comment(which I can't put my finger on now) about when ever he hears about a brother who has seen Christ, he becomes concerned for their salvation. They begin to feel they are better than everyone else. Paraphrasing miserably, but the point remains, it looks like Bro. Snuffer may have fallen into this a little. I am surprised he is sharing as much as he does about his implied personal experiences with the Savior. Just feels kind of ... wrong. Even the public claim is ... awkward.

I won't criticize his book, or him. Just share that thought. Given what controversy this has caused, I think I will stick with the scriptures and let the spirit teach. In the end, it seems he is setting himself up on a bit of a superior position than the prophet, or should I call him the pope?

The other note is we have people on this forum, I will call the Bobites, who contend through revelation that everyone is going to the Celestial kingdom, and the new faction the Snufferites that contend that unless you have been sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise in this life you are Telestial or Terrestrial material at best.

Me, I just know I felt a sweet spirit during general conference, and still believe the witness given me by the Spirit that Pres. Monson is THE living oracle and prophet on the earth, and he does hold the sealing power.
Rand, your comment makes it very clear that you have not read Snuffer's books. Otherwise you would not have made half of the comments you just did.

Amore Vero
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Re: Passing the Heavenly Gift by Denver Snuffer

Post by Amore Vero »

Rand wrote: I am surprised he is sharing as much as he does about his implied personal experiences with the Savior. Just feels kind of ... wrong. Even the public claim is ... awkward.
Whenever someone claims that they have had their 'calling & election made sure' we are instructed by Christ & Joseph Smith that the way to know if they are telling the truth & are truly a disciple of Christ, is if they preach, practice & possess 'perfect love', which will be very easy to see.

But I myself have never known of anyone today who seems to have this perfect love, it is so very rare.

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Jason
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Re: Passing the Heavenly Gift by Denver Snuffer

Post by Jason »

thebestsun wrote:Also, on another subject that kind of has to do with this. I will share my thoughts. I'm sure many will disagree but this is something I have thought for quite sometime now. Before ever reading Denver's book but after reading it..those ideas were solidified for me. He does not say this in his book. Just to make that clear. It is my personal opinion that before Zion is built a Prophet will arise outside of the church. We know of two who will arise and preach in Jerusalem. But I think one will arise here and he will not be within the hierarchy of the church. Maybe they will be a part of it possibly but I definitely don't think they will be in a high position. In the scriptures those who were charged to lead the saints and especially from destruction were never a part of the church Hierarchy. They received their powers directly from Heaven as it is always done. It is God's pattern as I have noticed. Christ Himself was not of an esteemed position in the church. This is one of the reason's the pharisees would not listen to Him. It is the pride of others to always think they know everything. We all have a tendency to think that way. I think this will take place and that it will test the faith of many saints and that it will be one of those things that separates the wheat from the tares. It will be up to the individual to seek their own revelation and whether they will hear His voice or not. But one is always sent before hand to prepare the way before Him. Just some of my thoughts. What are your thoughts on this Reese? If you are inclined to share that is.
I testify that there has been, and there is now, and there will be legal successors to the Prophet Joseph Smith who hold the keys of the kingdom of God on earth, even the President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. (See D&C 21:1–7; D&C 107:91–92; D&C 112:15.) He receives revelation from God to direct His kingdom. Associated with him are others who are prophets, seers, and revelators, even those who make up the presiding quorums of the Church, namely the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. (See D&C 112:30.)
http://lds.org/ensign/1988/11/i-testify?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Today I speak of keys other than those of metal. The keys I speak of never rust. These are the keys of life and salvation in the kingdom of God. The Prophet Joseph Smith said, “I will give you a key that will never rust, if you will stay with the majority of the Twelve Apostles, and the records of the Church, you will never be led astray.” 1

The Prophet also stated: “The Priesthood is everlasting. The Savior, Moses, and Elias, gave the keys to Peter, James, and John, on the mount, when they were transfigured before him.” 2 Peter, James, and John conferred the keys of the kingdom of God upon the Prophet Joseph and ordained him to be an Apostle and a special witness of the name of the Savior and to bear the keys of his ministry. 3 Keys that pertain to the gathering of Israel, the dispensation of Abraham, and, indispensably, the keys of sealing were conferred upon the Prophet by Moses, Elias, and Elijah in 1836. 4

Prior to the martyrdom, no doubt with a sense of foreboding, the Prophet Joseph prepared for his death. President Joseph Fielding Smith states:

“The Prophet declared that he knew not why, but the Lord commanded him to endow the Twelve with these keys and priesthood, and after it was done, he rejoiced very much, saying in substance, ‘Now, if they kill me, you have all the keys and all the ordinances and you can confer them upon others, and the powers of Satan will not be able to tear down the kingdom as fast as you will be able to build it up, and upon your shoulders will the responsibility of leading this people rest.’” 5

Brigham Young, as the President of the Quorum of the Twelve, subsequently became the President of the Church, following the Prophet Joseph Smith. So it was with President Howard W. Hunter following the death of President Ezra Taft Benson. As President Joseph Fielding Smith wrote:

“There is no mystery about the choosing of the successor to the President of the Church. The Lord settled this a long time ago, and the senior apostle automatically becomes the presiding officer of the Church, and he is so sustained by the Council of the Twelve which becomes the presiding body of the Church when there is no First Presidency. The president is not elected, but he has to be sustained both by his brethren of the Council and by the members of the Church.” 8

The keys given by the Savior to Peter, James, and John, and given by them to the Prophet Joseph, have not rusted. They will open all spiritual doors of the dispensation of the fulness of times. They are now exercised by President Howard W. Hunter, his Counselors in the First Presidency, and the Quorum of the Twelve, who serve under the direction of the First Presidency.

How long will these keys last? President Wilford Woodruff stated:

“When the Lord gave the keys of the kingdom of God, the keys of the Melchisedec Priesthood, of the apostleship, and sealed them upon the head of Joseph Smith, He sealed them upon his head to stay here upon the earth until the coming of the Son of Man. … They were with him to the day of his death. They then rested upon the head of another man. … He held those keys to the hour of his death. They then fell by turn, or in the providence of God, upon Wilford Woodruff.

“I say to the Latter-day Saints the keys of the kingdom of God are here, and they are going to stay here, too, until the coming of the Son of Man. Let all Israel understand that. They may not rest upon my head but a short time, but they will then rest on the head of another apostle, and another after him, and so continue until the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ in the clouds of heaven to ‘reward every man according to the deeds done in the body.’” 9
http://lds.org/ensign/1994/11/the-keys- ... t?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The Lord Almighty leads this Church, and he will never suffer you to be led astray if you are found doing your duty. You may go home and sleep as sweetly as a babe in its mother’s arms, as to any danger of your leaders leading you astray, for if they should try to do so the Lord would quickly sweep them from the earth. Your leaders are trying to live their religion as far as they are capable of doing so (DBY, 137).
http://lds.org/manual/teachings-of-pres ... t?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Brethren, the Church is true. Those who lead it have only one desire, and that is to do the will of the Lord. They seek his direction in all things. There is not a decision of significance affecting the Church and its people that is made without prayerful consideration, going to the fount of all wisdom for direction. Follow the leadership of the Church. God will not let his work be led astray.
http://lds.org/general-conference/1983/ ... d?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The gospel itself has been the same in all dispensations; the plan of salvation is the same for all our Father’s children in every age. From time to time it has been lost by apostasy, but whenever the Lord has had a people on earth, they have been offered the same laws and truths of salvation that he has revealed to us.

But there is one great added thing we have received in this age that has never been had before. In this dispensation the Lord has decreed that the Church shall never again be led astray; this time the gospel is here to stay. This time the revealed truth is destined to prepare a people for the second coming of the Son of Man, and the Church will be established in all parts of the earth when the Lord comes to usher in the millennial era of peace and righteousness.

As Daniel foresaw, the little stone that was cut out of the mountain without hands shall grow until it becomes a great mountain and fills the whole earth; and it shall break in pieces and consume all other kingdoms; and it shall stand forever. In fact, there is to be a millennial day when the knowledge of God shall cover the earth as the waters cover the mighty deep.

Now I say these things to you to make it clear that the destiny of the Church rests with the youth of Zion. The Church is here to stay, and the young and rising generation shall rise up and direct the kingdom in due course with great power and glory.
http://lds.org/new-era/1971/11/a-call-to-serve?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
We have been promised that the President of the Church will receive guidance for all of us as the revelator for the Church. Our safety lies in paying heed to that which he says and following his counsel.

The doctrine of this church was stated by Elder Stephen L Richards: “They [the Presidency] are the supreme court here on earth in the interpretation of God’s law.

“In the exercise of their functions and delegated powers they are controlled by a constitution, a part of which is written and a part of which is not. The written part consists in authenticated scripture, ancient and modern, and in the recorded utterances of our latter-day prophets. The unwritten part is the spirit of revelation and divine inspiration which are appertinent to their calling.

“In formulating their interpretations and decisions they always confer with the Council of the Twelve Apostles who by revelation are appointed to assist and act with them in the government of the Church. When, therefore, a judgment is reached and proclaimed by these officers it becomes binding upon all members of the Church, individual views to the contrary notwithstanding. God’s Kingdom is a kingdom of law and order.” (In Conference Report, Oct. 1938, pp. 115–16.)

How can we be so sure that, as promised, the prophets, seers, and revelators will never lead this people astray? (See Joseph Fielding Smith, Ensign, July 1972, p. 88.) One answer is contained in the grand principle found in the 107th section of the Doctrine and Covenants: “And every decision made by either of these quorums must be by the unanimous voice of the same.” (D&C 107:27.) This requirement of unanimity provides a check on bias and personal idiosyncrasies. It ensures that God rules through the Spirit, not man through majority or compromise. It ensures that the best wisdom and experience is focused on an issue before the deep, unassailable impressions of revealed direction are received. It guards against the foibles of man.

The responsibility for determining the divine validity of what one of the oracles of God states does not rest solely upon him. President J. Reuben Clark stated, “We can tell when the speakers are ‘moved upon by the Holy Ghost’ only when we, ourselves, are ‘moved upon by the Holy Ghost.’” (Daniel H. Yarn, Jr., ed., J. Reuben Clark: Selected Papers on Religion, Education, and Youth, Provo, Utah: Brigham Young University Press, 1984, pp. 95–96.)

This is in harmony with the counsel of Brigham Young: “I am more afraid that this people have so much confidence in their leaders that they will not inquire for themselves of God whether they are led by Him. I am fearful they settle down in a state of blind self-security, trusting their eternal destiny in the hands of their leaders with a reckless confidence that in itself would thwart the purposes of God in their salvation, and weaken that influence they could give to their leaders, did they know for themselves, by the revelations of Jesus, that they are led in the right way. Let every man and woman know, by the whispering of the Spirit of God to themselves, whether their leaders are walking in the path the Lord dictates, or not.” (In Journal of Discourses, 9:150.)

Revelation was required to establish this church. Revelation has brought it from its humble beginnings to its present course. Revelation has come like flowing, living water. Continuing revelation will lead it forward to the windup scene. But as President Clark told us, we do not need more or different prophets. We need more people with “a listening ear.” (In Conference Report, Oct. 1948, p. 82.)
http://lds.org/general-conference/1989/ ... n?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Many of you are descended from pioneers in this Church. They struggled so hard; they paid such a terrible price for their faith. Be true to them and true always to the Church they loved so much. I wish that each of you would remember that tonight you heard me say that this Church is true. Other churches also do much good, but this is the “true and living church” of the Lord Jesus Christ, whose name it bears (see D&C 1:30). Be true to it. Cling to it. If you will do so it will become as an anchor in the midst of a stormy sea. It will be a light to your lives and a foundation upon which to build them. I give you my solemn testimony that this Church will never be led astray. It is in the hands of God, and should any of its leaders ever attempt to lead it astray, His is the power to remove them. He has said that He has restored His work for the last time, “never again to be destroyed nor given to other people” (D&C 138:44; see also Dan. 2:44–45).
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There aren’t many guarantees in this life. There isn’t a car made with a warranty that covers everything. No bank on earth can absolutely guarantee that your money is completely safe. Even the Good Housekeeping seal of approval has a disclaimer written right on it! Nothing man-made or man-controlled can ever be truly guaranteed! But here’s the miracle. The Lord has given some marvelous guarantees without any disclaimers. And this is one of them: He will choose the prophet, and He will never let that man lead us astray. Imagine for a moment the impact of that promise. There is at least one place we can turn for pure, unpolluted guidance.

God’s message was never more clear and sure or safe and direct than when President Gordon B. Hinckley read, as part of his message at the general Relief Society meeting held September 23, 1995, the proclamation on the family. 5 Look at the lessons God taught a floundering world through this proclamation: Marriage between a man and a woman is ordained of God. We are created in His image. Our gender was determined before we came to earth and is part of our eternal identity. We lived with Him before we came to earth. God commanded us to bear children but warned that the powers of procreation were to be employed only within the sacred bonds of marriage. God tells us through His prophet that we have a solemn responsibility to love and care for each other as husband and wife and to rear our children in love and righteousness, to provide for their physical and spiritual needs. The family is ordained of God. Parents have specific duties and responsibilities—fathers preside, provide, and protect, and mothers nurture. In addition, the proclamation contains this very important warning—that those who abuse spouse or offspring, who fail to fulfill family responsibilities will stand accountable before God. Further, this warning—that the disintegration of the family will bring upon individuals, communities, and nations the calamities foretold by ancient and modern prophets. Brothers and sisters, we are in the midst of that reality at this very moment. It is the duty of all of us to protect and strengthen the family.
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I would like to share with you some of the principles that President Benson taught:

“First: The prophet is the only man who speaks for the Lord in everything” (1980 Devotional Speeches of the Year [1981], 26).

In our day the prophet of God has told us to keep the commandments, to love our fellowman, to serve, to take care of the rising generation, to rescue the inactive or less active—to do many things that we call prophetic priorities. We need to understand that these priorities are God’s priorities and the prophet is His voice in communicating them to all of the Church and the world.

We are counseled to “give heed unto all his words and commandments” (D&C 21:4). We also learn:

“For his word ye shall receive, as if from mine own mouth, in all patience and faith.

“For by doing these things the gates of hell shall not prevail against you; yea, and the Lord God will disperse the powers of darkness from before you, and cause the heavens to shake for your good, and his name’s glory” (D&C 21:5–6).

Second fundamental: “The living prophet is more vital to us than the standard works” (“Fourteen Fundamentals,” 26).

The living prophet is receiving specific revelations for us. I can remember many times when I have been present to hear one of the servants of the Lord speak about a specific thing for a city or country. I remember at least three of the living prophets, seers, and revelators who have spoken about my country, Brazil. One of these servants said that Brazil would become a great economy in the world and be free of inflation. At the time, we had two-digit inflation every month. It was difficult for many people to believe what the prophet said, but I believed. Brazil has had about 5 percent inflation each year for many consecutive years now. Brazil has become eighth in the world economy, and the country is doing great!

Third fundamental: “The living prophet is more important to us than a dead prophet” (“Fourteen Fundamentals,” 27).

We learn a great lesson about this from the scriptures. In the times of Noah it was easier for the people to believe in the dead prophets, but it was difficult for them to believe in Noah. We know that because of their incredulity they did not survive the Flood (see Genesis 6–7).

Fourth fundamental: “The prophet will never lead the Church astray” (“Fourteen Fundamentals,” 27).

Again we learn from the living prophets. President Wilford Woodruff said: “The Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as President of this Church to lead you astray. It is not in the programme. It is not in the mind of God. If I were to attempt that, the Lord would remove me out of my place, and so He will any other man who attempts to lead the children of men astray from the oracles of God and from their duty” (Official Declaration 1).

Fifth fundamental: “The prophet is not required to have any particular earthly training or credentials to speak on any subject or act on any matter at any time” (“Fourteen Fundamentals,” 27).

The Lord called a young man, Joseph Smith, to restore His Church. Do you think that the young Joseph Smith was a doctor in theology or science? We know that he was a humble and not academically educated young man. But he was chosen by the Lord, and he received from the Lord all that was necessary to honor and magnify the calling of a prophet of the Restoration.

President Benson continued:

“Sixth: The prophet does not have to say ‘Thus saith the Lord’ to give us scripture. …

“Seventh: The prophet tells us what we need to know, not always what we want to know” (“Fourteen Fundamentals,” 27, 28).

And then President Benson quoted from 1 Nephi 16:1, 3:

“And now it came to pass that after I, Nephi, had made an end of speaking to my brethren, behold they said unto me: Thou hast declared unto us hard things, more than we are able to bear. …

“And now my brethren, if ye were righteous and were willing to hearken to the truth, and give heed unto it, that ye might walk uprightly before God, then ye would not murmur because of the truth, and say: Thou speakest hard things against us.”

Eighth fundamental: “The prophet is not limited by men’s reasoning. …

“… Does it seem reasonable to cure leprosy by telling a man to wash seven times in a particular river? Yet this is precisely what the prophet Elisha told a leper to do, and he was healed. (See 2 Kings 5.)” (“Fourteen Fundamentals,” 28).

And President Benson continued giving other principles about obedience to the prophet. I will read the last six and invite you in your next family home evening to find these principles in the words and teachings of our living prophets, seers, and revelators during this general conference.

“Ninth: The prophet can receive revelation on any matter—temporal or spiritual. …

“Tenth: The prophet may be involved in civic matters. …

“Eleventh: The two groups who have the greatest difficulty in following the prophet are the proud who are learned and the proud who are rich. …

“Twelfth: The prophet will not necessarily be popular with the world or the worldly. …

“Thirteenth: The prophet and his counselors make up the First Presidency—the highest quorum in the Church. …

“Fourteenth: The prophet and the presidency—the living prophet and the first presidency—follow them and be blessed; reject them and suffer” (“Fourteen Fundamentals,” 29).

We are privileged to have the words of our living prophets, seers, and revelators during this wonderful general conference. They will speak the will of the Lord for us, His people. They will transmit the word of God and His counsel to us. Pay attention and follow their instruction and suggestions, and I testify to you that your life will be completely blessed.
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reese
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Re: Passing the Heavenly Gift by Denver Snuffer

Post by reese »

Amore Vero wrote:
Rand wrote: I am surprised he is sharing as much as he does about his implied personal experiences with the Savior. Just feels kind of ... wrong. Even the public claim is ... awkward.
Whenever someone claims that they have had their 'calling & election made sure' we are instructed by Christ & Joseph Smith that the way to know if they are telling the truth & are truly a disciple of Christ, is if they preach, practice & possess 'perfect love', which will be very easy to see.

But I myself have never known of anyone today who seems to have this perfect love, it is so very rare.
Your right Amero. It is called charity. The problem is that we seem to think that charity is always nice and sweet and kind and never offends. Sometimes being charitable means harsh words, condemnations and chastisement. Sometimes the most charitable thing to be done is to figuratively Smack someone out of their slumber and warn them of what is coming. Most don't respond well to it, but it is the Lord's way nevertheless.

Amore Vero
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Re: Passing the Heavenly Gift by Denver Snuffer

Post by Amore Vero »

Jason wrote: “There is no mystery about the choosing of the successor to the President of the Church. The Lord settled this a long time ago, and the senior apostle automatically becomes the presiding officer of the Church
Does anyone know where in the D&C is this scriptural reference for this teaching? Thanks.

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Jason
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Re: Passing the Heavenly Gift by Denver Snuffer

Post by Jason »

Amore Vero wrote:
Jason wrote: “There is no mystery about the choosing of the successor to the President of the Church. The Lord settled this a long time ago, and the senior apostle automatically becomes the presiding officer of the Church
Does anyone know where in the D&C is this scriptural reference for this teaching? Thanks.
Doctrines of Salvation, 3:156

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Mark
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Re: Passing the Heavenly Gift by Denver Snuffer

Post by Mark »

thebestsun wrote:You can continue to make judgments on a book you have never read and stay ignorant on the matter or read it for yourself. If you still feel the same way then so be it. I am personally not someone who condemns anyone for their beliefs. I don't condemn Gideon even though we clearly disagree. Who am I to do so? My concern is where I stand with the Lord. Its not for me to judge what others may think or do. Joseph was a strong advocate for a man being able to believe as he will and he actually knew of a man who was wrong and yet, did not condemn him for his belief. I can't find the quote but Joseph told others to leave a man alone and allow him to be free to believe as he will...It's not for any of us to judge Denver and say he is "apostate". What you or I think of each other or of him is no matter though. We are to love one another. We are each free to choose. As for me, I will stand with the Lord and what the scriptures say. Even hard words of repentance if they are what brings me closer to the Lord. Also, as far as speaking evil of the Lord's anointed goes. That goes for anyone who has received endowments supposedly. Denver if he is telling the truth and I believe he is, really has been anointed by the Lord Himself. Yet, others see no problem with speaking evil of him. Its quite the double standard isn't it?

I've heard all these arguments before as well thebestsun. Don't judge anyone for their beliefs. Let everyone believe what they want. The problem here is that this Brother is calling out the leadership of the church publicly and making damning judgments against them in their stewardship roles. You can't see the difference here?

Why is the church warned scripturally not to allow wolves to enter into the flock? Should the church just stand by and let anyone with a beef against the Brethren publicly badmouth their stewardship roles all the while claiming that they are faithful members? Why does the church bring apostasy charges against those who publicly defame the church and its leadership?

The ramifications of just ignoring these types of attacks are potentially dangerous to the body of Saints. I would hope people here could understand why this is the case. Apparently some here don't see any problem with this. That to me is alarming in itself.
Last edited by Mark on October 10th, 2011, 12:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Amore Vero
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Re: Passing the Heavenly Gift by Denver Snuffer

Post by Amore Vero »

reese wrote: Your right Amero. It is called charity. The problem is that we seem to think that charity is always nice and sweet and kind and never offends. Sometimes being charitable means harsh words, condemnations and chastisement. Sometimes the most charitable thing to be done is to figuratively Smack someone out of their slumber and warn them of what is coming. Most don't respond well to it, but it is the Lord's way nevertheless.
I agree that those with true charity can be blunt in their warnings, but they also prove they have 'perfect love' by the way they live their lives & it is especially clear to see it in how they love & honor their spouse & marriage covenants.

Amore Vero
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Re: Passing the Heavenly Gift by Denver Snuffer

Post by Amore Vero »

Jason wrote:
Amore Vero wrote:
Jason wrote: “There is no mystery about the choosing of the successor to the President of the Church. The Lord settled this a long time ago, and the senior apostle automatically becomes the presiding officer of the Church
Does anyone know where in the D&C is this scriptural reference for this teaching? Thanks.
Doctrines of Salvation, 3:156
Thanks, but that is just where the above statement is found. I am looking for the scripture that backs up the teaching.

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Jason
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Re: Passing the Heavenly Gift by Denver Snuffer

Post by Jason »

Amore Vero wrote:
Jason wrote:Doctrines of Salvation, 3:156
Thanks, but that is just where the above statement is found. I am looking for the scripture that backs up the teaching.
Easy.....Elder James E. Faust Of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles in the 1994 October Conference

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gruden2.0
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Re: Passing the Heavenly Gift by Denver Snuffer

Post by gruden2.0 »

Gideon wrote:
gruden2.0 wrote:
I don't always agree with what Snuffer says, but I will always listen and consider what he says. If Christ thought well enough of him to grant him a personal audience, maybe he's someone worth paying attention to.
That is how I felt, until I read this book. I have a hard time believing the words of those who refer to the prophets as "the new popes", "the Mormon Pontiff", and "the proud descendants of Nauvoo".
The infallibility doctrine is fairly well ingrained in the church. Read some threads on this board and you will find it here in abundance. My observation is the Lord will allow people to fail. He didn't intervene with David when he took his evening walks and peered into Bathsheba's court. He didn't stop Eve from eating the apple. Etc. How far He would be willing to let a church president err is anyone's guess. If we put Christ first it's a moot point. Snuffer is trying to get us to do this.
Gideon wrote:The major point that this book is built on, in my opinion, is that the church didn't complete the Nauvoo temple on time, and because of that they never received the fulness of the priesthood, and, therefore, do not have the sealing power. The church goes only downhill from there. From what I can tell, he doesn't seem to believe that the church has the Melchizedek priesthood at all. I would like him to correct me on that.
He is not saying we don't have the Melchizedek priesthood at all. You might want to re-read the first couple chapters. He clearly delineates between power and authority, which many confuse. Section 121 spells it out, but people forget. Power comes from God, not from an ordination.
Gideon wrote:However, brother Snuffer can't prove his claim regarding the sealing power, and he offers no witness, other than his word. Are we supposed to reject the prophets and apostles on the testimony of one man? Well, people who believe in the church are not his intended audience. He wrote for those who have already rejected the church, as he has, and he attempts to show them how they can gain salvation in spite of their feelings about the church. According to him, the rest of us our are going to be destroyed anyway.

I think it would be great if he were to join this forum and explain himself. I definitely have a lot of questions for him.
Instead of ruffling feathers, maybe you should re-read what he's saying. I read that chapter last night and I think you missed the point.

Amore Vero
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Re: Passing the Heavenly Gift by Denver Snuffer

Post by Amore Vero »

Jason wrote:
Amore Vero wrote:
Jason wrote:Doctrines of Salvation, 3:156
Thanks, but that is just where the above statement is found. I am looking for the scripture that backs up the teaching.
Easy.....Elder James E. Faust Of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles in the 1994 October Conference
Does he give a reference in the D&C where this teaching is found?

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Jason
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Re: Passing the Heavenly Gift by Denver Snuffer

Post by Jason »

Amore Vero wrote:
Jason wrote:
Amore Vero wrote:Thanks, but that is just where the above statement is found. I am looking for the scripture that backs up the teaching.
Easy.....Elder James E. Faust Of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles in the 1994 October Conference
Does he give a reference in the D&C where this teaching is found?
No....but an Apostle of the Lord stated it over the pulpit at General Conference....so what's the point???? Unless you are stating that Elder Faust isn't an apostle and doesn't speak for God - is that the case?

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