Passing the Heavenly Gift by Denver Snuffer

[shadow]

Darn my reply didnt post...here goes again..lol. Shadow, my opinion on that subject may very well be wrong. It's possible. My opinion is based off of the patterns I have noticed in the scriptures and how I understand it. However there are other things that must be considered and taken into account. A lay member in the church doesn't have priesthood Authority? Yes they do and they have been ordained through the same line of priestly authority which all leads back to Joseph Smith. Every member can receive this invitation and authority based on personal righteousness. Priesthood authority and priesthood power are two completely separate things however. The powers of the priesthood only come from Heaven and no man can pass that gift as Denver states in his book. This again comes from the scriptures. Once a person receives the invitation it is up to them to seek further until that ordination is made full and ratified by Heaven. Also, you mentioned keys. If the church does not posses the fulness and all of the keys. Even the sealing powers then it would also be necessary for an individual to have that conferral directly from Christ. Also, do the missionaries not go and preach repentance unto the nations? Are they putting themselves above the leaders of the church by doing so? Of course not. The leaders have the right to lead because of that authority and by the vote of common consent. No one should be taking their place to run the church but that does not mean a prophet could not come to raise a voice of warning and preach repentance. Those who came before did not come to try and take over the institution but to prepare a people for greater righteousness. Christ stated that he did not come to frustrate or take over work that was already being done. He let those who were in those positions to stay there although technically He could have taken over if He wanted but it wasn't necessary. Its not as black and white as it may appear.

I'm really not sure what you're saying Bestsun. Do you not think Pres. Monson holds all the keys including the sealing powers? Pres. Woodruff (among all the other prophets) taught-
“I say to the Latter-day Saints the keys of the kingdom of God are here, and they are going to stay here, too, until the coming of the Son of Man. Let all Israel understand that. They may not rest upon my head but a short time, but they will then rest on the head of another apostle, and another after him, and so continue until the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ in the clouds of heaven.”

Also, your example of missionaries is flawed. They are called and set apart by those who have authority to do so. A stranger has no authority to do it, neither a "lay member" of the church. There's a system to these things.
Lets just take a look at section 28 vs 2-3

2 But, behold, verily, verily, I say unto thee, no one shall be appointed to receive commandments and revelations in this church excepting my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., for he receiveth them even as Moses.

3 And thou shalt be obedient unto the things which I shall give unto him, even as Aaron, to declare faithfully the commandments and the revelations, with power and authority unto the church.

Is it in the system for an "outside" prophet to come along and preach anything new? Nope.
And just for further clarification of the previous verses (because some may think it only applies to Jospeh Smith)-
6 And thou shalt not command him who is at thy head, and at the head of the church;

7 For I have given him the keys of the mysteries, and the revelations which are sealed, until I shall appoint unto them another in his stead.
The next person in his stead was Brigham Young and on down the line to His current prophet Pres. Monson.
To further clarify-
12 For, behold, these things have not been appointed unto him, neither shall anything be appointed unto any of this church contrary to the church covenants.

13 For all things must be done in order, and by common consent in the church, by the prayer of faith.

To be clear, Jospeh Smith taught-
“The Presidents or [First] Presidency are over the Church; and revelations of the mind and will of God to the Church, are to come through the Presidency. This is the order of heaven, and the power and privilege of [the Melchizedek] Priesthood. It is also the privilege of any officer in this Church to obtain revelations, so far as relates to his particular calling and duty in the Church.”

“We do not consider ourselves bound to receive any revelation from any one man or woman without his being legally constituted and ordained to that authority, and giving sufficient proof of it.

“… It is contrary to the economy of God for any member of the Church, or any one, to receive instructions for those in authority, higher than themselves; therefore you will see the impropriety of giving heed to them; but if any person have a vision or a visitation from a heavenly messenger, it must be for his own benefit and instruction; for the fundamental principles, government, and doctrine of the Church are vested in the keys of the kingdom.”

Looking for (or expecting) any other prophet other than the president of the church is looking beyond the mark and missing the point. Those who suggest such a thing are teaching false doctrine (among showing a lack of faith) and should be avoided. If Snuffer suggests this (and I don't know that he has) then I'd avoid any book he writes.

[AshleyB]

Well then I suppose all of the past prophets who have been called and set apart by God were false prophets because under your reasoning's its not possible to happen. What then of Samuel the Lamanite? What of John the Baptist? Was Christ ordained by a person in the church to go and do his ministry? I have never read anywhere where it said he was. Many prophets of past rose from obscurity so there is no reason to suppose it cannot happen again in order for a people to be prepared. But again, this is my opinion based on the patterns in the scriptures. My point about the lay member of the church was that even the lay member of the church has priesthood Authority. Therefore it would be possible to have a prophet arise from obscurity within the church who does posses priesthood authority according to your definition. Your definition being that the authority has to be given by another man within the church who also possesses this authority. My example with the missionaries was only to point out that the prophets come to prepare the way and their message is always to preach repentance to the people. And that the missionaries do this everyday but they are in no way putting themselves above the leadership of the church when they do it. I was making the point that, that mission has nothing to do with the interference with who or how the church is being ran. I used that example because of this quote you provided:

“… It is contrary to the economy of God for any member of the Church, or any one, to receive instructions for those in authority, higher than themselves; therefore you will see the impropriety of giving heed to them; but if any person have a vision or a visitation from a heavenly messenger, it must be for his own benefit and instruction; for the fundamental principles, government, and doctrine of the Church are vested in the keys of the kingdom.”

Can you or I preach repentance to others? Can we go out and teach other about gospel principles with out being "set apart" to do it?

By the way, I am not teaching false doctrine. As I stated this is my own studied opinion and I stated that clearly. No one has any reason to listen to me and no one has to agree with me. It was just a stated opinion. And I also already stated clearly that these are my own ideas and not snuffers. You have brought up some valuable points though and have given me some more things to ponder over and perhaps I will research this that much further. So I appreciate your input. I however believe it is possible because the scriptures have numerous examples of it.

[Mark]

Darn my reply didnt post...here goes again..lol. Shadow, my opinion on that subject may very well be wrong. It's possible. My opinion is based off of the patterns I have noticed in the scriptures and how I understand it. However there are other things that must be considered and taken into account. A lay member in the church doesn't have priesthood Authority? Yes they do and they have been ordained through the same line of priestly authority which all leads back to Joseph Smith. Every member can receive this invitation and authority based on personal righteousness. Priesthood authority and priesthood power are two completely separate things however. The powers of the priesthood only come from Heaven and no man can pass that gift as Denver states in his book. This again comes from the scriptures. Once a person receives the invitation it is up to them to seek further until that ordination is made full and ratified by Heaven. Also, you mentioned keys. If the church does not posses the fulness and all of the keys. Even the sealing powers then it would also be necessary for an individual to have that conferral directly from Christ. Also, do the missionaries not go and preach repentance unto the nations? Are they putting themselves above the leaders of the church by doing so? Of course not. The leaders have the right to lead because of that authority and by the vote of common consent. No one should be taking their place to run the church but that does not mean a prophet could not come to raise a voice of warning and preach repentance. Those who came before did not come to try and take over the institution but to prepare a people for greater righteousness. Christ stated that he did not come to frustrate or take over work that was already being done. He let those who were in those positions to stay there although technically He could have taken over if He wanted but it wasn't necessary. Its not as black and white as it may appear.

I'm really not sure what you're saying Bestsun. Do you not think Pres. Monson holds all the keys including the sealing powers? Pres. Woodruff (among all the other prophets) taught-
“I say to the Latter-day Saints the keys of the kingdom of God are here, and they are going to stay here, too, until the coming of the Son of Man. Let all Israel understand that. They may not rest upon my head but a short time, but they will then rest on the head of another apostle, and another after him, and so continue until the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ in the clouds of heaven.”

Also, your example of missionaries is flawed. They are called and set apart by those who have authority to do so. A stranger has no authority to do it, neither a "lay member" of the church. There's a system to these things.
Lets just take a look at section 28 vs 2-3

2 But, behold, verily, verily, I say unto thee, no one shall be appointed to receive commandments and revelations in this church excepting my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., for he receiveth them even as Moses.

3 And thou shalt be obedient unto the things which I shall give unto him, even as Aaron, to declare faithfully the commandments and the revelations, with power and authority unto the church.

Is it in the system for an "outside" prophet to come along and preach anything new? Nope.
And just for further clarification of the previous verses (because some may think it only applies to Jospeh Smith)-
6 And thou shalt not command him who is at thy head, and at the head of the church;

7 For I have given him the keys of the mysteries, and the revelations which are sealed, until I shall appoint unto them another in his stead.
The next person in his stead was Brigham Young and on down the line to His current prophet Pres. Monson.
To further clarify-
12 For, behold, these things have not been appointed unto him, neither shall anything be appointed unto any of this church contrary to the church covenants.

13 For all things must be done in order, and by common consent in the church, by the prayer of faith.

To be clear, Jospeh Smith taught-
“The Presidents or [First] Presidency are over the Church; and revelations of the mind and will of God to the Church, are to come through the Presidency. This is the order of heaven, and the power and privilege of [the Melchizedek] Priesthood. It is also the privilege of any officer in this Church to obtain revelations, so far as relates to his particular calling and duty in the Church.”

“We do not consider ourselves bound to receive any revelation from any one man or woman without his being legally constituted and ordained to that authority, and giving sufficient proof of it.

“… It is contrary to the economy of God for any member of the Church, or any one, to receive instructions for those in authority, higher than themselves; therefore you will see the impropriety of giving heed to them; but if any person have a vision or a visitation from a heavenly messenger, it must be for his own benefit and instruction; for the fundamental principles, government, and doctrine of the Church are vested in the keys of the kingdom.”

Looking for (or expecting) any other prophet other than the president of the church is looking beyond the mark and missing the point. Those who suggest such a thing are teaching false doctrine (among showing a lack of faith) and should be avoided. If Snuffer suggests this (and I don't know that he has) then I'd avoid any book he writes.

I can only hope that people will take to heart the principles you are trying to convey here Shadow. Priesthood keys really are the key. The Prophet either holds them all or he doesn't. There will be no rogue prophets appearing out of nowhere to lead the people to Zion. God is a God of order. He will work through His established Priesthood channels to bring about his purposes. If someone doesn't understand that they will eventually be deceived by a slick con job. Many have fallen for just such cons before and will continue to do so in the future.

[AshleyB]

Ah well... No worries. At least you guys know you wont be lead astray. Thats all that matters.

[shadow]

Well then I suppose all of the past prophets who have been called and set apart by God were false prophets because under your reasoning's its not possible to happen. What then of Samuel the Lamanite? What of John the Baptist? Was Christ ordained by a person in the church to go and do his ministry? I have never read anywhere where it said he was. Many prophets of past rose from obscurity so there is no reason to suppose it cannot happen again in order for a people to be prepared.

It's not my reasoning Bestsun, it's how the Lord restored His church and Kingdom in these latter days. We aren't going to have a Samuel the Lamanite. The mighty and strong one has been and will continue to be the senior apostle, the prophet. We need not look further.

‘We are differently situated from any other people that ever existed upon this earth; consequently those former revelations cannot be suited to our conditions; they were given to other people, who were before us; but in the last days, God was to call a remnant, in which was to be deliverance, as well as in Jerusalem and Zion [see Joel 2:32]. Now if God should give no more revelations, where will we find Zion and this remnant? … ’

“The President then gave a relation of obtaining and translating the Book of Mormon, the revelation of the Priesthood of Aaron, the organization of the Church in 1830, the revelation of the High Priesthood, and the gift of the Holy Ghost poured out upon the Church, and said: ‘Take away the Book of Mormon and the revelations, and where is our religion? We have none.’” -Joseph Smith

[AshleyB]

We dont have to come to agree. Thats ok with me if we dont. I dont want to argue about it though. Im all for clarifying and explaining the reasons behind opinions and claims but I dont like to go on with it and argue after we have already established the basis for our claims. Ive learned my lesson about arguing and the fact that it does no good. You are entitled to your view. Im entitled to mine. In fact to save time in the future we can probably just come out and say that anything I say you and Mark are going to disagree with me and try to convince me of my errors so I am not lead astray. Haha. ) I do appreciate you both. Really. And I think you are both very intelligent. But we can go ahead and assume we dont agree with each other because we never do. :ymsmug: So there.... who knows how many minutes of posts I just saved us both? :p I am flattered that you both care so much for my spiratual welfare. :ymhug:

[Mark]

I will ask this once again. If an avowed enemy of the church today such as Decker or Tanner for example made the following statements what would be the reaction here?
Page 303.
'The saints still claim we fulfilled everything required by the revelation in January, 1841 (Section124). The proud descendants of Nauvoo, who have always retained control of the church's top leadership positions, claim to hold all the keys ever given to Joseph Smith. They teach that they can bind on earth and in heaven. They are the 'new Popes having the authority the Catholic Pope claims to possess, as J. Reuben Clark remarked. According to their account of the historical narrative, all is well in their Zion. They intend to build Zion some day, wen they get around to it. In the meantime, they continually curtail the scope of the restored faith, reducing the topics authorized to be taught in Sunday School, Priesthood, and Relief Society. Working to move farther and farther from what will be required for Zion. Their plan seems at odds with the end they seek.'

After quoting 2 Nephi 28:20-26, which he believes refers to the church today, he says on pages 338-339:
'The gentile church will be secure with false teachings that tell them that Zion is intact. Everything is fine. The power to redeem, to bind on earth and in heaven is with them. Zion is prospering and enjoys God's favor. There is no need to repent and return to Christ, because everything is well with the church. But these ideas are not only false, they come from the devil who "whispereth in their ears, until he grasps them with death and hell." The plan to sell a devalued gospel, lacking the power to save, without any connection to Christ, originated with the adversary. Its result will be to condemn to hell those who believe it.... If a gentile follower of this false Zion encounters an inspired view of their own awful state, they can awaken and quickly come to realize that Nephi is speaking to us.'

[shadow]

What is your source for the identity of the mighty and strong one, shadow?

Actually I have to correct my previous post and say there is no point to it because Bishop Partridge repented so no one was needed to set things in order. But if the need had risen it would fall on the lap of the prophet to fix would it not? And if not then it would fall on the person who would have been called to replace bishop Partridge, but again, he repented so there was no need. Bishop Partridge had a certain stewardship as bishop so "setting in order the house of God" would pertain to that particular stewardship he had and was failing at (which was to arrange by lot the inheritance of the Saints). That verse in 85 is always taken waaaaay out of context.

[shadow]

A lot of things here are being taken waaaay out of context!

Does Snuffer teach that church leadership is apostate and that the church doesn't hold the keys it says it does?

I haven't read any of his books and never planned to before this thread even started but I'm curious on your interpretation of the paragraphs Gideon posted.

[Amore Vero]

I believe the bottom line is, that we can & should all be Prophets & receive all truth & understand all mysteries & have visions, dreams & visitations to our hearts content.

And if a person does become 'a prophet or prophetess' because of their personal righteousness, even if they aren't 'the' Prophet, they still have the right & responsibility & command from the Spirit to edify, uplift, teach, testify, lead & encourage all those who will listen to the truth that they feel to share, even if the person doesn't hold a position of authority.

The only difference between these 2 kinds of Prophets, is one has the authority to lead the Church as a whole & the other can teach & uplift people on a personal basis as the Spirit directs.

But we are probably held 'more accountable' for not following 'the' Prophet who has authority to lead the whole Church.

While listening to an 'unauthorized true prophet' would be very beneficial, it probably isn't commanded, it's just our choice to do or not, but wise people would listen & glean from both kinds of Prophets, for neither would ever contradict the other.

Truth from any source in the world is still truth & will still benefit us & help us progress & is good to follow & learn from, whether it comes from someone in authority or not. For truth from even non-authoritative sources, even non-lds sources, can 'never' lead us astray & never lead us to do wrong, it can only be good to follow, if we are humble enough to discern it.

We just need to make sure we have the Holy Spirit as our guide to be able to discern 'truth from error', no matter who teaches it & be able to tell who are 'Christ's true disciples' vs. who are 'wolves' in sheep's clothing, in & out of the church.

[Mark]

A lot of things here are being taken waaaay out of context!

Does Snuffer teach that church leadership is apostate and that the church doesn't hold the keys it says it does?

I haven't read any of his books and never planned to before this thread even started but I'm curious on your interpretation of the paragraphs Gideon posted.

No-one here who is defending some of the statements in this book will answer your question directly Shadow. They just continue to decry anyone who has concerns about the statements made by the author as lacking in context etc etc. Everybody wants to dance around the main issues here.

In the statements quoted by Gideon out of the book it is clear that the author does not feel that todays "proud descendents of Nauvoo" or "the new Popes" that he snidely refers to our leadership as continues to hold all the Priesthood keys including the sealing powers. I don't know how one can read it any other way.

The man is clearly being very derogatory of the Brethren and feels that they are in a state of apostasy by dumbing down the Saints and withholding greater light and knowledge from the Saints path toward Zion.

I for one will not excuse this as just misunderstood out of context wisdom. It is apostate in nature and those who can not see it are blinded by the other 9 truths he has spoken in His other books and writings.

I have met many apostates who could converse with tremendous knowledge about wonderful subjects like calling and election and second anointing and many other marvelous doctrines of great spiritual importance.

However they all had one thing in common. They invertible began to pridefully speak evil of the Lords anointed servants called to possess all the keys of the Priesthood and felt that they were fallen in their stewardship roles. This led them into a state of apostasy and they eventually became bitter toward the church.

I see the beginnings of that same thing here with this authors accusatory tone towards the Brethren. These Brethren are special witnesses of Christ and do not deserve to be contemptually referred to as "proud descendents of Nauvoo" or "new Popes". This is wrong and distasteful to any who have made sacred covenants in the temple to avoid this kind of slander. Shame on him for that prideful attack against these Prophets of the Lord. Good luck with that. 8-|

[Gideon]

. one of the chapters in the book being disused is call a Church of Destiny, and covers the marvelous things we have to accomplish in the future, his information does not point to leaving the church, but to supporting it through its troubles, troubles, mind you, that are without doubt set out very clearly in prophecy.

BrentL is correct, brother Snuffer does say this, at the end of the book. But, he also states quite clearly that the church has been rejected, cursed and condemned, and that the members will be burnt up because they aren't sealed to Joseph Smith and that only a remnant will be left who will assist the descendants of the Book of Mormon people in building the New Jerusalem.

This topic illustrates one of the major disappointments I experienced reading this book. It seemed like he rushed through it without checking his work. Another example, already cited in another post, is the loss of priesthood by individual members. He says that when someone exercises unrighteous dominion that they lose their priesthood. Let's look at the relevant verses:

37 That they may be conferred upon us, it is true; but when we undertake to cover our sins, or to gratify our pride, our vain ambition, or to exercise control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness, behold, the heavens withdraw themselves; the Spirit of the Lord is grieved; and when it is withdrawn, Amen to the priesthood or the authority of that man.
38 Behold, ere he is aware, he is left unto himself, to kick against the pricks, to persecute the saints, and to fight against God.
39 We have learned by sad experience that it is the nature and disposition of almost all men, as soon as they get a little authority, as they suppose, they will immediately begin to exercise unrighteous dominion.
(Doctrine and Covenants 121:37–39‎)‎

If you include verse 39 in the discussion, then, if you agree with brother Snuffer, you must conclude that almost all men who have received the priesthood lost it shortly thereafter. If that is the correct view, what does that mean today? It means that it is highly unlikely that anyone in the church actually holds any priesthood at all. Therefore, it is safe to assume that all of the ordinances are invalid, no one has the gift of the Holy Ghost, no temple has been authoritatively dedicated, all work for our ancestors is invalid, and that no one has been sealed to their spouse eternally. In effect, the Restoration was a complete failure.

One would think that a being who knows all things would come up with a better plan. I say that He did. Verse 37 does not say that when a man exercises unrighteous dominion that he loses his priesthood. It says that the immediate effect is that the Spirit of the Lord is grieved. It does not say that when it is grieved it withdraws, it says "and when it is withdrawn...". The difference allows for someone to repent, receive mercy, and continue progressing.

When does the Spirit of the Lord withdraw from a person? Those verses don't say, but here is one that might apply:

Therefore, thus saith the Lord: Because of the hardness of the hearts of the people of the Nephites, except they repent I will take away my word from them, and I will withdraw my Spirit from them, and I will suffer them no longer, and I will turn the hearts of their brethren against them.
(Helaman 13:8‎)‎

[7cylon7]

I did read "The Second Comforter". I can't say why specifically, but it made me incomfortable at the time. I loved some parts of it, but at the same time, I had a nagging feeling that something isn't quite right. After reading the pros and cons of Snuffer's new book, I think I'll pass on this book. I guess I'm an 8th grade Mormon, because I love General Conference and the scriptures, and yes, even the lessons. Everyone wants the mysteries when we can hardly live up to what we've already been given.

I love General conference too. I was listening to some over again while cleaning today. One of my favorite things to do is listen to the scripture audio version online. Ive been doing this all day. I love doing that. And I love the lessons as well. I think most of us do. But, I think sometimes we can be like over active children in a classroom who get in trouble a lot because they are bored and need more stimulation. And personally, I think the term mysteries is often misinterpreted to mean grand secrets when really a mystery just applies to anything that you were not aware of or not understood. Anything can be a mystery to a person who doesn't know it. There is nothing wrong with wanting to gain more so those things are not mysteries anymore. Heavenly Father delights in our desires to gain more knowledge. Joseph Smith said a man is saved no faster then he gets knowledge.

If you want to learn more about the gospel you have to do it on your own. The lessons at church will never give you the full and en-depth meat that you are looking for. If you want milk your whole life by all means enjoy your milk. However, many find that milk will not satisfy them any longer. Meat is for these people. Meat if chewed many times over is safe to consume however, if meat swallowed whole could choke a person to death. So you are counseled to study the milk and perfect it which is a lifetime pursuit and goal. However, while doing this there are those that would pursue meat and boy is there a lot of meat out there to chew on.

[shadow]

According to the reasoning of some on here, the three nehpites dont exist. they have no sealing power (odd, considering that Nephi was expressly given it in the Book of Mormon, o well, must be a false book) and they cannot preach because they have not been ordained by the Church. John really isnt out preaching to the lost tribes, because we know they have their own prophets. wonder what will happen when the tribes return WITH their prophets. guess we will have to stone some of them.

You have to think things through Brent. Nobody has said the 3 Nephites don't exist or hat they don't have the sealing powers. But when was the last time you saw one of the 3 Nephites call and set apart a Bishop or reorganize a Stake? How about perform a sealing in the Temple? How about dedicate a Temple? Who's line of priesthood authority goes back to one of them as opposed to Joseph Smith? None. The only thing the 3 Nephites do is break into cars and hide in the back seats so when the driver is driving at night time one or more of the 3 Nephites will suggest they get their food storage, then they disappear. And John was sent out to preach to the Lost Tribes because they are lost and didn't have a prophet. We have one. Again, there is this last dispensation.

A question for you though, do you believe the leaders of the church are apostate and don't hold the keys they say they do?

[keeprunning]

Looking for (or expecting) any other prophet other than the president of the church is looking beyond the mark and missing the point. Those who suggest such a thing are teaching false doctrine (among showing a lack of faith) and should be avoided. If Snuffer suggests this (and I don't know that he has) then I'd avoid any book he writes.

I can only hope that people will take to heart the principles you are trying to convey here Shadow. Priesthood keys really are the key. The Prophet either holds them all or he doesn't. There will be no rogue prophets appearing out of nowhere to lead the people to Zion. God is a God of order. He will work through His established Priesthood channels to bring about his purposes. If someone doesn't understand that they will eventually be deceived by a slick con job. Many have fallen for just such cons before and will continue to do so in the future.

If this is what people are coming away with after reading his books (a prophet outside the leadership to guide the church-hmm, perhaps him and his books??), how are their radars not going off?

[reese]

A lot of things here are being taken waaaay out of context!

Does Snuffer teach that church leadership is apostate and that the church doesn't hold the keys it says it does?

I haven't read any of his books and never planned to before this thread even started but I'm curious on your interpretation of the paragraphs Gideon posted.

No-one here who is defending some of the statements in this book will answer your question directly Shadow. I will. But first lets define what apostate means. In my opinion(correct me if I am wrong ), apostate is not a black or white thing. The question should not be- Are we apostate?, it should be- How far into apostasy are we? For example, we have Joseph who right from the beginning was receiving revelation from God almost daily. Constantly gaining more and more light. Therefore moving closer and closer to God. We can all see that, that "fast-forward" movement to God slowed somewhat by the time they were in Navoo. The Lord Himself said they had lost the fulness of the priesthood and needed to have it restored in Navoo. Now lets fast forward to the present.

Are we currently receiving more light and knowledge than Joseph was in the beginning? It seems to me that to NOT be in any degree of apsotasy, we would have to be receiving even more and more light and knowledge than Joseph was giving to the saints. As the scriptures say the pattern is to receive more and more until the perfect day. So I think no one can really argue the fact that we indeed don't receive more or even equal to, the amont of revelation that was being given to the saints via Joseph.

So if we are not moving closer to God, then we must be moving away from God, all-be-it slowly. That would be my definition of apostasy. We all know that the children of Israel were in varying degees of apostasy throughout their history. Did they still have truth, yes. Did the Lord still work with them, yes. Were they still His people, yes. But they were still in apostasy. To say that the church leadership is apostate, is no different than pointing out that the church is in apostasy. We are all in this together. I don't see how we can be viewed as not being in apostasy. I believe that Isaiah was talking about us. He says that the eyes of the seers would be covered because of the iniquity of the people. We are clearly not moving forward at the same speed that the church was with Joseph. In fact we actually remove a lot of what he was teaching at the time. Everybody wants to dance around the main issues here.

In the statements quoted by Gideon out of the book it is clear that the author does not feel that todays "proud descendents of Nauvoo" or "the new Popes" that he snidely refers to our leadership as continues to hold all the Priesthood keys including the sealing powers. I don't know how one can read it any other way. I don't know how you can read sec.124 and read IT any other way.

The man is clearly being very derogatory of the Brethren Actually he is kind to and defends them for being in a difficult position much more, but you'll have to take my word on it as you refuse to find out for yourself.and feels that they are in a state of apostasy by dumbing down the Saints and withholding greater light and knowledge from the Saints path toward Zion. Well "dumbing down the saints and withholding greater light and knowledge from the saints path toward zion" is a good definition of apostasy. That seems to be what is happening.

I for one will not excuse this as just misunderstood out of context wisdom.Well the fact that you won't actually read it in context, would neccessarily mean that your judgment will be skewed. It is apostate in nature and those who can not see it are blinded by the other 9 truths he has spoken in His other books and writings.

I have met many apostates who could converse with tremendous knowledge about wonderful subjects like calling and election and second anointing and many other marvelous doctrines of great spiritual importance.

However they all had one thing in common. They invertible began to pridefully speak evil of the Lords anointed servants called to possess all the keys of the Priesthood and felt that they were fallen in their stewardship roles. This led them into a state of apostasy and they eventually became bitter toward the church.

I see the beginnings of that same thing here with this authors accusatory tone towards the Brethren.Again if you would actually read the book you would find that Snuffer is not accusatory or contemptous. He is honost. He spends a great deal of time saying that no one should leave the church. That we all should sustain and pray for these men in their callings. But that we should have our eyes wide open instead of half shut. These Brethren are special witnesses of Christ and do not deserve to be contemptually referred to as "proud descendents of Nauvoo" or "new Popes". This is wrong and distasteful to any who have made sacred covenants in the temple to avoid this kind of slander. Shame on him for that prideful attack against these Prophets of the Lord. Good luck with that. 8-|

Mark I know I answered all of this on your comment, but it is meant to be for all of us.

[reese]

Looking for (or expecting) any other prophet other than the president of the church is looking beyond the mark and missing the point. Those who suggest such a thing are teaching false doctrine (among showing a lack of faith) and should be avoided. If Snuffer suggests this (and I don't know that he has) then I'd avoid any book he writes.

I can only hope that people will take to heart the principles you are trying to convey here Shadow. Priesthood keys really are the key. The Prophet either holds them all or he doesn't. There will be no rogue prophets appearing out of nowhere to lead the people to Zion. God is a God of order. He will work through His established Priesthood channels to bring about his purposes. If someone doesn't understand that they will eventually be deceived by a slick con job. Many have fallen for just such cons before and will continue to do so in the future.

If this is what people are coming away with after reading his books (a prophet outside the leadership to guide the church-hmm, perhaps him and his books??), how are their radars not going off?

Actually if you notice, its all of the people who have not read the book that are saying this. No one who has read the book is saying that this is what the book is teaching.

[NoGreaterLove]

Enough quotes have been posted on this thread from his book and threads to let me know not to touch the book. When I can see the steam coming from the stove, I am not going to touch it just to confirm it is hot.

[keeprunning]

All this "the brethren are dumbing down the gospel and withholding light and knowledge" talk is really starting to sound very prideful and disturbing to me. All you elite intellectuals can go have your more enlightened meetings with Denver. I'm sorry, I really respect that if the apostles of Jesus Christ have been inspired to keep general teaching manuals more plain and simple for us dumbed down simple folk it is more out of charity and kindness than apostacy.
How do people get so upset that they aren't hearing some things when they go to church? Do they not understand that we are expected to be searching on our own at home? We can learn these things if we follow the teachings of the church in our everyday lives. Just by searching the scriptures, prayer, temple going, and listening carefully to the words in general conference more often. It's all there if we just use our time more wisely.
If our minds are really that much more advanced, then we should be able to get something out of an 8th grade level.

[AshleyB]

The problem is not that our minds are really so advanced. The problem is that teachings that lead us to actually seek Christ himself and to seek for further light and knowledge that father promised to send are not really talked about. And that this further light and knowledge is a requirement for our exaltation and NOT optional. Unless you are just content to be living away from Heavenly Father. The point is that Joseph openly taught these things on a daily basis to new converts and the like. These teachings are not just some extra far fetched "mysteries". They are the ENTIRE POINT to the gospel. So its like telling a joke and leaving out the punch line. It doesn't make any sense. We become complacent in the Gospel when we are not learning new things and seeking further. You are either going forward OR you are going BACKWARDS. There is NO stagnant. And this is what many people do not understand. Nevertheless, no one is "blaming" the church for anything. It is up to the individual to search and if we don't know things and are not seeking everyday to learn more so we can grow closer to Him we have no one to blame but ourselves. Though, IT IS blatantly clear that the way things are done now are not how they once were done. Things that were once the center point of doctrine are not not even talked about. No matter what the reasons are for it, it IS very sad. And says a lot about where things are and where they are headed. We are increasingly becoming more like other Christian faiths and people. Many of those things that once made us a peculiar people are becoming a thing of the past. Whether you choose to see it or not, it is happening.

It's not really a matter of pride as some would suppose. It is a matter of the reality of the changes that are taking place. And call those of us crazy who want to continue learning and growing and seeking which brings us inevitably closer to the savior but that it does. I dont understand why anyone would want to be content with the knowledge they have and say "We need no more!" We have all we need. But I will not limit myself that way.

[clarkkent14]

I won't criticize his book, or him. Just share that thought. Given what controversy this has caused, I think I will stick with the scriptures and let the spirit teach. In the end, it seems he is setting himself up on a bit of a superior position than the prophet, or should I call him the pope?

Enough quotes have been posted on this thread from his book and threads to let me know not to touch the book. When I can see the steam coming from the stove, I am not going to touch it just to confirm it is hot.

Maybe you should stop reading the Book of Mormon too... it has caused so much controversy, even on this forum, not to mention all of it's history. Lot's of steam comes from it's stove too.

Your position is like those who reason, "A Bible, A Bible," and they reject receiving more of the words of Christ. You have the gift of the Holy Ghost, I assume, or at least you can tell light from dark. Why wouldn't you take the time to search it out for yourself? It's like the investigator who was on here a few months ago... we tried to get him to actually READ the BOM, but he wanted to argue over this and that instead. JUST READ THE BOOK and use the light of Christ to discern for yourself.

Does it point you to Christ, and does it invite and entice you to do good?

And now, my beloved brethren, and also Jew, and all ye ends of the earth, hearken unto these words and believe in Christ; and if ye believe not in these words believe in Christ. And if ye shall believe in Christ ye will believe in these words, for they are the words of Christ, and he hath given them unto me; and they teach all men that they should do good.

But behold, that which is of God inviteth and enticeth to do good continually; wherefore, every thing which inviteth and enticeth to do good, and to love God, and to serve him, is inspired of God.

For behold, my brethren, it is given unto you to judge, that ye may know good from evil; and the way to judge is as plain, that ye may know with a perfect knowledge, as the daylight is from the dark night.

For behold, the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil; wherefore, I show unto you the way to judge; for every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God.

Don't discount words because they are controversial, or a man because he is loved by some and hated by others. Test it out for your self.

[ATL Wake]

To those who find Snuffer a prideful person. He has not made one comment about himself, other than to say he is no one. I have not detected the slightest pride from HIS WORDS. Of course the way others choose to describe him do sound somewhat proud.

"By your fruits ye shall know them." What is Denver's message? Repent, have faith in Christ, and seek Him. I have only felt edified after reading his books/blogs, because it motivates me to change, it motivates me to be a better person, it motivates me to sanctify myself NOW, so that I can see Christ NOW. That is a good message. I know many complacent members that do not want to do more now, they believe there will be plenty of time in the Spirit World to make up for what they have not done now. Since Alma warns against procrastinating the day of your repentance, I find Denver's message in harmony with the scriptures.

[AshleyB]

Jules, its like you took the words right out of my head. Thank you. I agree as well. Great post Reese.


And its true about controversy. I believe Joseph was quite controversial in His day. And no, Im not saying Brother Snuffer is like Joseph. But you have to admit there are some things here about this situation that are awfully similar which I find extremely interesting.

[AshleyB]

Looking for (or expecting) any other prophet other than the president of the church is looking beyond the mark and missing the point. Those who suggest such a thing are teaching false doctrine (among showing a lack of faith) and should be avoided. If Snuffer suggests this (and I don't know that he has) then I'd avoid any book he writes.

I can only hope that people will take to heart the principles you are trying to convey here Shadow. Priesthood keys really are the key. The Prophet either holds them all or he doesn't. There will be no rogue prophets appearing out of nowhere to lead the people to Zion. God is a God of order. He will work through His established Priesthood channels to bring about his purposes. If someone doesn't understand that they will eventually be deceived by a slick con job. Many have fallen for just such cons before and will continue to do so in the future.

If this is what people are coming away with after reading his books (a prophet outside the leadership to guide the church-hmm, perhaps him and his books??), how are their radars not going off?

WOW! Apparently my statements that were made VERY clear that, that was my own studied personal oppinion are being comepletely ignored and falling on deaf ears. This was my opinion long before I ever read any of Snuffer's work and I stated that as well. I also stated more than once and clearly that He doesnt talk about this in his book anywhere.

[reese]

You (and others here) certainly put up a vehement fight against Bro. Snuffer and his books - interesting that it's based on gossip, false accusations and misconstrued excerpts. it's completely unfair to slander a person based upon these things, (or at all for that matter). Nobody is "dancing around the issues", but when people refuse to look past gossip and false accusations and see for themselves what the truth is, it's pointless to argue. Thank you reese for the time you've taken to try and set the record straight, but I fear it will fall upon deaf ears. Bro. Snuffer should not be falsely accused of being apostate and evil-speaking of the brethren. His blog post from today expresses his feelings about the church and the leaders pretty clearly: http://denversnuffer.blogspot.com/2011/ ... tance.html. It's a shame that people are content with bashing someone without knowing the whole truth, and without having the willingness to find out for themselves. And it's sad that more people continue to make the choice not to read his books because the gossip and false accusations and twisted interpretations of quotes from the book, sound louder than the truth - which is that the book offers a clearer understanding of the Gospel and the history of our church.

Your right Jules. I just have to post this statement from Denver's website because to me it is exactly what the book is about and for. And since it is apparent that there are those who will avoid actually reading his words from the source, I figured they wouldn't bother reading from his website from the link you provided.

In our Region of the church (we're about to have a Regional Conference in two weeks), one of the greatest problems we face is adult apostasy stemming from reading critical things about the church's history on the Internet. A great number of adults are dismayed when they learn of things from hostile, even bitterly opposed sources working to remove faith in the restored Gospel. There are some people assigned by the church to investigate this problem, and who are discussing how to address it. I suggested to my stake president that my book, Passing the Heavenly Gift, might be of use. I know of twelve men now who have returned to activity in the church after reading the book. These are bright men, well read and engaged in searching into things which matter to them. They had all reached the conclusion the church was not being honest about its history and therefore ended their activity with the church. After reading the book, however, they decided it was not as they presumed, and the Lord does indeed have a destiny for the Latter-day Saints, foretold by the Prophets in the Book of Mormon and revealed to Joseph Smith.

thebestsun, this situation reminds me of Joseph as well. In fact I keep getting a scene running through my mind from the movie The Work and Glory, everytime I read this thread. When the whole town is doing everything they can to de-fame Joseph and convince anyone and everyone not read his "gold bible". And yes I know, now everyone will have a hayday saying we are comparing Denver to Joseph. 8-|