Passing the Heavenly Gift by Denver Snuffer

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kathyn
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Re: Passing the Heavenly Gift by Denver Snuffer

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If you want to learn more about the gospel you have to do it on your own. The lessons at church will never give you the full and en-depth meat that you are looking for. If you want milk your whole life by all means enjoy your milk. However, many find that milk will not satisfy them any longer. Meat is for these people. Meat if chewed many times over is safe to consume however, if meat swallowed whole could choke a person to death. So you are counseled to study the milk and perfect it which is a lifetime pursuit and goal. However, while doing this there are those that would pursue meat and boy is there a lot of meat out there to chew on.
I have studied a lot of "meat" over the years. And don't appreciate the insinuation that if I don't embrace Snuffer's writing, then I am only satisfied with milk. I will probably read the book. I have read "The Second Comforter" but if I begin to get negative feelings when reading Passing the Heavenly Gift, I won't continue.

Steve Clark
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Re: Passing the Heavenly Gift by Denver Snuffer

Post by Steve Clark »

I'm about 2/3 the way through the book. I haven't read all his others, only 2nd Comforter, Nephi's Isaiah and I read all of his blog. I decided to read this book now because I have been struggling with things lately and felt that this could help me come to grips with my observations and feelings. So far I am very satisfied. I feel closer to the Lord and have a greater desire to seek Him.

I do agree with Denver that this book is not for everybody. If I came across it 2 yrs ago I would have said the same thing Mark is saying. I do not feel Bro. Snuffer is an apostate. I believe he has had the experience he said he had, and I am glad he is willing to acknowledge the shortcomings we have in order to overcome them.

If you don't feel that this book is for you, don't read it.

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NoGreaterLove
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Re: Passing the Heavenly Gift by Denver Snuffer

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I think we have beat this subject to death. Just a suggestion, maybe we should not beat a dead horse anymore. I bow out.

ATL Wake
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Re: Passing the Heavenly Gift by Denver Snuffer

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kathyn wrote:I will probably read the book. I have read "The Second Comforter" but if I begin to get negative feelings when reading Passing the Heavenly Gift, I won't continue.
I would recommend AGAINST reading the book IF you are not committed to FINISHING it. The book has a message. It requires the entire book to communicate that message. If you only read until you are uncomfortable you would be worse off than not reading it at all. The message as a whole is edifying. You will seek your Savior more fervently.

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gruden2.0
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Re: Passing the Heavenly Gift by Denver Snuffer

Post by gruden2.0 »

ATL Wake wrote:
kathyn wrote:I will probably read the book. I have read "The Second Comforter" but if I begin to get negative feelings when reading Passing the Heavenly Gift, I won't continue.
I would recommend AGAINST reading the book IF you are not committed to FINISHING it. The book has a message. It requires the entire book to communicate that message. If you only read until you are uncomfortable you would be worse off than not reading it at all. The message as a whole is edifying. You will seek your Savior more fervently.
I second that.

This book is for people who have read church history and are troubled by things like the Mountains Meadow Massacre, the blood atonement, the Danites, etc. Usually people go two routes with this: they ignore it or apostatize. Yet there is a third route.

One thing I considered posting several weeks ago but decided against it was a short essay on overcoming the Great Apostasy. This book prompted me to revisit it because that is what the book is about.

Many years ago when I was a college student I decided to abandon my inactivity and resume going to church. I had quite a number of spiritual experiences that encouraged me to continue in this path that told me there was greater meaning to what I was doing. I spent a lot of time with the scriptures and I started reading church history.

However, after a year or so, my reading turned up some rather ugly things in church history. I became very troubled and questioned how a true church could be associated with these things. It was a dark time for me, yet somehow I persevered and in the end was rewarded by a powerful experience with the Holy Ghost. I became converted, and now these things do not trouble me.

In time, I've observed other people run into the Great Apostasy, and many of them were overcome. I think many of them would be helped if we didn't ignore these things, but were more open and frank about them. They do not have to destroy our faith. Our faith and testimony should be independent of any other person's actions or words, past or present.

Snuffer's book is an attempt to address this issue, to be open and honest about things that have happened in church history and things that are happening now. These things can be overcome and our testimonies can emerge stronger. I believe that in this time period of earth's history all those that are on the path and progressing will inevitably encounter the Great Apostasy. We need to give people tools to overcome that. Sweeping it under the rug serves no one.

If, for whatever reason, certain events in church history or even certain things about the church today do not bother you, then this book probably isn't for you. If you have lingering doubts about certain things with the church, you will find this book especially valuable. I haven't finished it yet and it's already helped me ask new questions and learn new things.

reese
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Re: Passing the Heavenly Gift by Denver Snuffer

Post by reese »

gruden2.0 wrote:
ATL Wake wrote: I would recommend AGAINST reading the book IF you are not committed to FINISHING it. The book has a message. It requires the entire book to communicate that message. If you only read until you are uncomfortable you would be worse off than not reading it at all. The message as a whole is edifying. You will seek your Savior more fervently.
I second that.

This book is for people who have read church history and are troubled by things like the Mountains Meadow Massacre, the blood atonement, the Danites, etc. Usually people go two routes with this: they ignore it or apostatize. Yet there is a third route.

One thing I considered posting several weeks ago but decided against it was a short essay on overcoming the Great Apostasy. This book prompted me to revisit it because that is what the book is about.

Many years ago when I was a college student I decided to abandon my inactivity and resume going to church. I had quite a number of spiritual experiences that encouraged me to continue in this path that told me there was greater meaning to what I was doing. I spent a lot of time with the scriptures and I started reading church history.

However, after a year or so, my reading turned up some rather ugly things in church history. I became very troubled and questioned how a true church could be associated with these things. It was a dark time for me, yet somehow I persevered and in the end was rewarded by a powerful experience with the Holy Ghost. I became converted, and now these things do not trouble me.

In time, I've observed other people run into the Great Apostasy, and many of them were overcome. I think many of them would be helped if we didn't ignore these things, but were more open and frank about them. They do not have to destroy our faith. Our faith and testimony should be independent of any other person's actions or words, past or present.

Snuffer's book is an attempt to address this issue, to be open and honest about things that have happened in church history and things that are happening now. These things can be overcome and our testimonies can emerge stronger. I believe that in this time period of earth's history all those that are on the path and progressing will inevitably encounter the Great Apostasy. We need to give people tools to overcome that. Sweeping it under the rug serves no one.

If, for whatever reason, certain events in church history or even certain things about the church today do not bother you, then this book probably isn't for you. If you have lingering doubts about certain things with the church, you will find this book especially valuable. I haven't finished it yet and it's already helped me ask new questions and learn new things.
And I second this gruden. :)

AshleyB
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Re: Passing the Heavenly Gift by Denver Snuffer

Post by AshleyB »

THURSDAY, OCTOBER 20, 2011

Reply to Questions
I was asked in an email to clarify some topics. I am posting this in response:

The appearance in 1836 in the Kirtland Temple does not appear to have fulfilled the return of Elijah. This is a topic the church is grappling with at the moment. Not at the bottom, where I live and write, but at the top. Though there are continuing statements made in public, behind the scenes there is a debate going on over the meaning of Elijah's appearance, when Joseph Smith received the sealing power, how he received it and whether the history should be revisited and clarified. I am setting out what I believe. It is for others to decide for themselves what they believe. But this is not as settled a subject as some public statements made for generations by the church make it appear.

Why does Joseph Smith omit mention of Elijah in his letter to the saints in September, 1842 (Section 128) if Elijah's return was completed in Kirtland in 1836?

Why does Oliver Cowdery never mention Elijah in his testimony about the restoration, though he does mention Moroni, the voice of God, John the Baptist and Peter, James and John?

Why does Joseph Smith speak of the return of Elijah as a future event in both January and March of 1844 if the Kirtland appearance satisfied the promise made in Malachi?

These are serious questions. There are people trying to answer them right now. I've provided my answer. Anyone is free to disagree with it. Anyone is free to decide it for themselves.

I don't think I am Elijah, and that's so stupid a proposition that I have a hard time even dignifying it with an answer. I want to say: "Are you serious???!!" But I'll leave it with, "no."

The sealing keys came to Joseph, like they came and were conferred upon Melchizedek and Nephi the same way. I explained it in Passing the Heavenly Gift. I'm not going to repeat it again here. It comes in only one way, that is by the Voice of God.

I've never said any church leader was "evil" or "of the devil." On the contrary, I've continually said they are the only ones entitled to lead the church, and no one has a right to interfere with their leading. No one has the right to call someone to any office in the church, collect tithing, or lead people away from the church. But EVERYONE has a duty to testify of the truth and to teach one another the doctrines of the kingdom. Therefore we are all under some obligation to declare what we believe, explain why, and defend it using the scriptures and declarations of the prophets. As to the analogy of church presidents to "Popes" that is J. Reuben Clark's terminology, as you can see in the book, and is not mine. I defer to him for that characterization. It is relevant to see how a member of the First Presidency viewed the role of the President and for that reason was included. I do not say whether I agree or disagree with his characterization, I only provide it. In fact, I do very little evaluating or concluding in Passing the Heavenly Gift. I merely set out what was said, done or written with the exception of one chapter which presumes, for purposes of that chapter, that the things promised in Section 124 were not delivered. Then, in light of that presumption, I explain what would then be the case. The book is an alternative view of history, which people are free to consider and reject. It is proposed as a way to grapple with inconsistencies and glaring problems which are not adequately reconcilable with the current stories we tell one another. I believe it is faith promoting. Particularly for those who are aware of the problems with our history. But, it is only faith promoting if you read the entire book. Reading only the first part will not be faith promoting, because it acknowledges the many problems and acquaints readers with the reasons why there is a crisis of faith among some of the most serious students of our history. I do not try to hide anything. It is or should be clear I'm not trying to shirk from difficulties. After setting it out, I then explain why I believe God's hand still lingers over the church and the saints. What is amusing to me is that one apostate reader thought it was too much an apologetic work (i.e. a defense of the church) for him to finish reading it. In other words, he thought it TOO faith promoting.

I do think the words of a dispensation head, in any dispensation, are binding upon all who follow. I do not think any prophet subsequent to Moses had the right to change Moses' teachings, for they were binding upon them. Until the Lord makes a change and opens a New Dispensation (which I expect Him to do personally), what Joseph Smith brought us is binding upon everyone, including all following prophets. We are told to be obedient to what we have received from him. (D&C 28: 2-3.) I believe that is still true. Meaning that no one, regardless of position or rank, can ignore what came through Joseph Smith except to their peril. Until a New Dispensation arrives, what Joseph Smith launched is supposed to remain intact.

"Elias" for our day is, I believe, Joseph Smith.

I expect Elijah to return the same way he departed. That's one of the great assignments to him. He must return because he will reopen the way through which others will follow. It will be, I believe, the same person as departed and not someone who self-proclaims or self-identifies as being "Elijah." It will be him. Not another. Anyone making that claim would (to me at least) be someone who does not understand the scriptures and is not to be take seriously.

I think that covers it. But I have to say the mischief comes from speculating, interpreting or emotionally reacting to the words I've written or spoken. Not in the words themselves. I try to be clear. The words are not attempting to "suggest" anything. Only to explain what I believe and why I believe as I do. They are the result of a great deal of work, which is set out in the text or footnotes, or bibliography.

EmmaLee
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Re: Passing the Heavenly Gift by Denver Snuffer

Post by EmmaLee »

The appearance in 1836 in the Kirtland Temple does not appear to have fulfilled the return of Elijah. This is a topic the church is grappling with at the moment. Not at the bottom, where I live and write, but at the top. Though there are continuing statements made in public, behind the scenes there is a debate going on over the meaning of Elijah's appearance, when Joseph Smith received the sealing power, how he received it and whether the history should be revisited and clarified. But this is not as settled a subject as some public statements made for generations by the church make it appear.
Thank you very much for posting this from his blog - it clarified many things for me, so I appreciate it!

Regarding the portions above which I underlined - does Bro. Snuffer ever state how he knows these things? I mean, is he in communication with the First Presidency or Twelve? Any insight would be appreciated. Thanks!

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oneClimbs
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Re: Passing the Heavenly Gift by Denver Snuffer

Post by oneClimbs »

I've read the book and to be honest I think it is worth the read. The best part about it is that he takes all these individual threads that seem "apostate" if you will and weaves them into a simple message at the end that is wonderful.

My take on it is this: The Church getting driven west was not a blessing, it was a cursing, just like Israel being taken captive into Assyria. Let's face it, our prophet was killed and we were kicked out of the promised land and many blessings were put on hold. This, in a sense, was an apostasy, a falling away. Until Zion exists, any group of God's people is still technically somewhere along the broad spectrum of "apostasy".

So what does this mean? Well, first off, we do have the authority and the power of God may still be exercised through that authority, we have the ordinances, knowledge of our divine commission and for the most part, the whole church including the leaders are trying to bring us back to Zion. We are a lot better off today than we were dragging ourselves across the plains. We all know the prophecies about the church needing to be cleansed; we don't know how all encompassing this cleansing will be, but we understand that if there needs to be a cleansing then there must still be some filthiness among us know. To what degree, we do not know and do not feel comfortable speculating.

Whatever happened or is happening that may or may not have been 100% what the Lord wanted his church to be doing, it doesn't really matter. The book ends with this general concept, that regardless of what state the church may or may not be in, the people of this church will build Zion and when the Lord returns in glory it is this people that he will come to.

Think of the patterns of history. Israel, the Nephites, there were times they apostatized but didn't FULLY fall away or FULLY lose their authority, they were chastened for a time and when they turned back to the Lord, he accepted them once again.

I believe this happened with the LDS church. I believe that perversions, lack of consecration and pride caused us the loss of Joseph Smith and a forced exodus out of the territory of the United States of America. The church was sent into the wilderness to cleanse it. The Saints were blessed there, a good foundation was re-established and good things are returning and have been returning. Though many new tares have been sown, the wheat and the tares will grow together until it is time for a final cleansing and a final harvest so that Zion can be redeemed.

The book does a great job of explaining how all this can be and how it isn't a bad thing, it's just patterns repeating and that those patterns show that his people will not be forgotten and that you are foolish from dividing yourself from God's church, especially this critical time.

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SmallFarm
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Re: Passing the Heavenly Gift by Denver Snuffer

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Is this book available for free online?

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A Random Phrase
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Re: Passing the Heavenly Gift by Denver Snuffer

Post by A Random Phrase »

SmallFarm wrote:Is this book available for free online?
No. It isn't. If I had an extra copy, I'd send you one, though. Sorry that I don't.

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Jason
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Re: Passing the Heavenly Gift by Denver Snuffer

Post by Jason »

NoGreaterLove wrote:I do not see rated PG-13 movies for the same reason I do not read Denver's book. Some say a PG-13 is ok to see because it only has a few scenes of nudity or some violence or some cursing. They say the overall message of the movie is great, you have to see it, just ignore the bad parts.
Sound familiar?

But, I have said enough. I have posted my position and do not condemn others because they choose to read it. To each his own. We will all suffer the consequences of our choices.
So well said...

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