My Review of Julie Rowe's "A Greater Tomorrow"

[Daryl]

Was the First Vision merely a vision?
Or was it the big visitation? Physical contact and all?
Why didn't Joseph clarify?
Did he struggle with what he saw?
Did it take him years to put into written word what had had received.
Are we putting JR up to a standard we don't even put JS up to?
Why are there so many attempts to quash?

Articles of Faith
13 We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

Do your faith.

[AI2.0]

Was the First Vision merely a vision?
Or was it the big visitation? Physical contact and all?
Why didn't Joseph clarify?
Did he struggle with what he saw?
Did it take him years to put into written word what had had received.
Are we putting JR up to a standard we don't even put JS up to?
Why are there so many attempts to quash?

Articles of Faith
13 We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

Do your faith.

We put Joseph up to the same standard as anyone who makes a claim. He said he experienced a vision. He did not say it was a near death experience or a dream--Joseph said he had a vision and if we found credible evidence that he lied, I think we would care.

Onsdag and Sarah have provided credible evidence--I think we should consider it carefully and I think these allegations deserve to be investigated.

'Do your faith'??? What the *** does that mean?

[Bananikka]

Maybe she shared what she could as she could? I am not on AVOW and so I am really not sure of what has been said there. I'm also not interested in reading a ton of exhaustive material somebody has written against after she has been such a positive inspiration in my life (after reading her books, hearing her interviews, going to see her and praying about her message). But those are just my thoughts.

[mirkwood]

For some reason, we expect to hear, particularly in welfare sessions, some ominous great predictions of calamities to come. Instead, we hear quiet counsel on ordinary things which, if followed, will protect us in times of great calamity.

Boyd K. Packer
The Gospel—The Foundation for Our Career

[Bee Prepared]

Was the First Vision merely a vision?
Or was it the big visitation? Physical contact and all?
Why didn't Joseph clarify?
Did he struggle with what he saw?
Did it take him years to put into written word what had had received.
Are we putting JR up to a standard we don't even put JS up to?
Why are there so many attempts to quash?

Articles of Faith
13 We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

Do your faith.

“I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong, and the Personage who addressed me said that all their Creeds were an abomination in his sight, that those professors were all corrupt, that: they draw near to me with their lips but their hearts are far from me, They teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of Godliness but they deny the power thereof.’ He again forbade me to join with any of them and many other things did he say unto me which I cannot write at this time.”

[Onsdag]

Thank you Onsdag for putting all this together.

Onsdag, Thank you so much for doing all this research, I have found it very enlightening.

Ever since I read her book back in the summer I have been 'on the fence' about her credibility. You gave me enough evidence to push me off. I've just reread the book 'the boy who came back from heaven' because I heard about his admitting that it was false and I wanted to refresh my memory, so then finding your review, made it more plausible that a good person could write a book like this, claiming it to be true, but in fact being lies. I'm quite certain that the Malarkey family were not bad people, and they probably thought they were glorifying god by writing a book to 'bring people to christ'. I don't think people do this with the intent to do evil; why they do it, they would have to answer, but there are many reasons.

I disagreed with some of your contentions, but you are spot on that she has borrowed heavily from scripture and the bible dictionary--there is NO DOUBT in my mind. The wording she used was no coincidence.

Also, your finding her postings at AVOW were more evidence that she is not being honest with her readers. I have read her claim that she did not read other NDE's, so that she would not taint her own but then you and ramsrn proved that she was very familiar with Sarah Menet, before she wrote her book. You gave two examples of things she saw that mirrored Sarah Menet, which Julie could claim was simply that they saw the same event. That is not the problem; what harms her credibility is that she lied about not reading others' NDE's, she admitted that she had because she admitted that she saw similar things--she could not have known this if she had not read Menet's experiences.

The other disconcerting thing I find is that on AVOW she talks about her dreams and visions, something that she had experienced for over a decade at that time. But, I don't remember her saying anything about having dreams and visions in her book--I don't have the copy with me, Does anyone remember this? I was wondering if anyone else remembers if Julie Rowe ever admitted in the book that she had many prophetic dreams? If she did not, then I think that is another big red flag that she would not openly share that important aspect about herself.

The transcript of one of her interviews with mills crenshaw was also troubling to me--after reading it I felt she used techniques honed by psychic entertainers to keep their audience believing in their abilities and not catching themselves in a prediction that could prove them false.

I also worry because of her work in Energy Healing; while there may be some value in it, I'm always a little suspicious of people who are too heavily invested in New Age type things.

You're welcome. And thank you.

What parts do you disagree with? I don't ask to be contentious, but rather to have an open and sincere discussion about truths as I understand them. I myself am "on the fence" about some of the issues I raised and nearly didn't include them because I can see how my understanding could be wrong or flawed. I'm open and willing to hear and discuss alternate views or ideas, and will do so respectfully.

Yes, I agree that she lied about not reading other people's accounts. She has stated numerous times, in her book, online, on radio, and probably in person at firesides that she did not read other peoples books and accounts before writing her book so as not to be influenced by them. She is also on record elsewhere saying that she was given Roger's and Sarah Menet's books for Christmas some years prior to her ever writing her book. While this doesn't prove she read them there is strong circumstantial evidence that she had in fact read them during this time several years prior to writing her, book contrary to her claims otherwise. Good observation about her admittance of seeing similar things. While again circumstantial it does add to the body of evidence that she has lied.

The only allusion in her book of her being a dreamer or visionary is at the beginning of the book she mentions having a dream/vision of her being hospitalized and seeing nurses and others attending to her - this prior to her hospital stay and the NDE actually happening. I don't have her book with me to verify, but I'm pretty certain she never once mentions in it that she has had dreams or other revelatory experiences afterwards which would validated her NDE or help bring the things she learned therein to her memory. Everything in her book reads as though what she experiences and witnesses therein came solely and directly from her NDE, and not from dreams or visions. She makes it explicitly clear throughout her book that everything she sees and witnesses therein is in fact very much her experience of going to the other side of the veil through a NDE. She doesn't once say anything about having dreams, visions, visitations from angels or other spirits, spiritual manifestations or witnesses from the Holy Ghost, or anything of the like, after her NDE to verify and validate that what she experienced really did happen, or to bring things back to her memory, or to teach her further light and knowledge.

This is a big problem because there is a record, many years prior to Julie ever having written her book, that much of what is now found in her book actually came from dreams she has had throughout her life, including some happening well before her supposed NDE. In this record she never once mentions ever having had a NDE - everything is only claimed as dreams. Is it possible that she had both dreams and a NDE which validate each other? In my estimation it's possible, though highly unlikely. Why did she never once mention having had a NDE during this time? Apparently she now claims that she was to keep her NDE to herself and not publicize it until some (9) years after the event. But then this begs the question if such was the case then why was she actively publishing a great many "dreams" in 2009 on AVOW that would later find their way into her book as part of her NDE? This would be a serious breach of trust on her part to not publicize her experiences until after 9 years. It also doesn't explain why dreams she has had prior to her NDE are now part of her NDE.

Your observation on Julie using techniques that psychic entertainers use is very enlightening and troubling too. Thank you for sharing it. I sense there is some truth to that. I don't know what techniques they use or how they perform their craft - I have never been interested in watching them or learning about it - but whenever I have listened to her something has felt off in the way she talks which I have never been able to place. Your thought provides some clarity as to why this may be.

[Onsdag]

As i mentioned, I am a close friend to Julie. I have known her for over 20 years, and we talk regularly about what is going on with her books, appearances, etc.

My purpose is to correct easily identifiable falsehoods in this thread. I don't wish to debate, argue, contend, or criticize others - only to correct falsehoods and speculation that I know are not true. As previously stated, Julie's experiences are genuine. Whether others choose to agree with them or not is up to each individual and a personal decision that I respect. So, you won't find me arguing about doctrine, authority etc. You won't find me trying to dissect the things that seek to prove certain things about what she has published. I see that as a creating bad energy and feeding the spirit of contention. That is not in harmony with her as a person or her message nor is it worth my time. Knowing Julie the way I do, it is hard for me see blatant falsehoods about her go uncorrected. That is why I have posted what I have.

I'd like to know if Julie has explained why she posted on a message board her dreams and then five years later they show up in her book where she claims those things were related to her in an NDE? Have you asked her about that?

Have you asked her why her relating of events borrows heavily from scriptural accounts and the Bible Dictionary? If you haven't asked her, I'm wondering if anyone has asked her?

I'd like to see her answer these questions and explain herself. Does anyone know if she's addressed these inconsistencies?

I too would like to know these things. I haven't ever asked her the questions directly or pointedly, though I have sent her an email with my document attached. Unless she is completely ignoring me or my concerns (which very well may be the case) then she should be aware of the issues I have brought up. I highly doubt though that she or others will step in to defend herself or answer the questions and concerns because, well, anyone who is honest with themselves will admit that it's hard to defend against and that there are some serious unanswered questions and issues raised. The only answer that makes sense is that her account is false.

[Onsdag]

I think I had an NDE just reading some of the first page. #:-s

I was given a copy of JR's book. Pretty easy reading, but it didn't change anything for me. I suppose if people prefer to read such books over the Book of Mormon, well, it's still better than watching TV or wasting time on Facebook.

Lol. Funny. Yes, it is a rather long document. I'm glad you survived it. ;)

[Onsdag]

Julie has repeatedly said that her dreams were for her to be reminded and retaught the details of her NDE, so that when the time came for her to share her NDE she would have clarity.

You did not read the posts she made, did you. Julie is talking about dreams she had BEFORE 2004, so they were not reminders or reteaching of her dreams. Sorry, this explanation does not answer my concerns.

She also admitted that after she wrote her book she read a few NDE books.

I agree with NJB, a lot of Onsdag's essay was splitting of hairs.

We're not talking about AFTER she wrote her book, we are talking about BEFORE she wrote her book.

She admitted that she read the AVOW site for about a year before finally sharing her dreams. She posted this in Sept. of 2009:

Having said that, hopefully if you read any of my posts, you will have a little more understanding of where I am coming from . Anything I post will be dreams prior to hearing about this site, Roger, Sarah, etc. I say this so that you know I did not have these dreams in response to reading someone else's dreams or experiences. I think that is important so that if someone is reading my posts, they will know they are my own experiences, not because I am dreaming it because someone else dreamed it, because SO MANY details are identical, specifically in terms of invasions from China, Russia, - concentration camps, plagues, famines, tsunamis, earthquakes, fires, "call outs" (even though I don't call what I saw in my dreams call outs), temples, mobs, adam-ondi-ahman, return of the 10 tribes, food storage and prep, droughts, biological warfare, nuclear attacks, war, etc.

From what she says, she was familiar with Sarah's NDE because she is comparing her dreams to Sarah's NDE. Also, she never mentioned experiencing an NDE, it was always about her dreams.

Well said and thank you.

For what it's worth, I agree that in some cases I am splitting hairs. Some of the things I put forth, in and of themselves, are not very convincing that something is wrong with her account. But I included them because taken as a whole in conjunction with many of the more serious discrepancies and issues it reveals a greater picture that her account is very problematic and simply not true.

[Onsdag]

I was eager to read this thread when I found it. I have some not so nice history with JR blasting me on AVOW. She openly called me to repentance for "apostate beliefs". She told me that what I had written did not jive with her own experiences and with current LDS doctrine of FTP. Then she included a charge to read her book, citing it as a source which could straighten me out on my misunderstandings. Suffice to say I was eager to read Onsdag's findings to salve my old wounds. LOL. I have tried several times to read JR's book, but have no motivation.

As I read Onsdag's long introduction, I was quickly becoming convinced that JR was exactly as he claimed. My fire for contempt was quickly fueled (I suddenly have a feeling the descriptive words in this sentence will be analyzed for plagiarism).

Then, I read the detailed evidences. Wow. Virtual back flips were performed to prove JR is false. Also something that I noticed was a very tight window of institutional standard that Onondaga uses to discredit JR's experience. The more I read the accusations, the more I was convinced that JR's claims are legit. Did she borrow ideas and scriptures? Seems to be quiet evident in some cases. Does that mean her story is not real? No. Just because there was some sloppy work does not mean it's not real. If you really think about it, at some level or another, we all do what Onsdag is accusing. When we are faced with describing some difficult experience, we all tend to use a frame of reference others can understand. I have no doubt JR opened her scriptures and tried to make sense out of what she had seen in vision.

I have had enough of my own visionary experiences to know that its just "messy enough" to need other sources to frame what I had experienced. Many times there is a "blank spot" in my visions where I am told I will learn what it means in time. And in fact some of those blank spots have been filled in by my own future experiences, but mostly through scripture study - certainly from other people like JR's experiences.

One thing for sure... There is far too much accusing going on. We need to practice some compassion when experiencing each other's differences. I have witnessed far too much judgement here on this thread and on AVOW. I hope we can reach deep inside ourselves to produce kind charity for those around us. We are all having a different experience. I write this more for myself than any one of you, since as I have mentioned I was initially ready to do the opposite. For which I now repent.

It appears to me that Onsdag has gone to great lengths in this analysis for a reason. God bless you for your efforts. I believe they are legit as well, with no external motivation. I believe there was a sincere desire to comprehend. One day you will will have your own similar experience and go through much of what JR has. Because of your efforts here, you will much better manage the challenges associated with putting yourself out there as JR has. Best wishes in your own experience.

Julie, thank you for sharing. I believe your experience is authentic. Please forgive my misgivings.

So, let me get this straight Daryl, you now believe Julie's experience and account is true simply because I did "virtual back flips" to prove she was wrong? :-\ Well, if that's how you choose to believe something is true or not then that is your choice... Personally though, I highly recommend and encourage using better methods to learn and follow after truth than that - namely, seeking after and learning from God who is the source of all truth through the scriptures, prophets, and the witness of the Holy Ghost.

[Onsdag]

Maybe she shared what she could as she could? I am not on AVOW and so I am really not sure of what has been said there. I'm also not interested in reading a ton of exhaustive material somebody has written against after she has been such a positive inspiration in my life (after reading her books, hearing her interviews, going to see her and praying about her message). But those are just my thoughts.

I'm glad that you have found positive inspiration through her works.

I find it rather humorous that you're not willing to read "a ton of exhaustive material" which I wrote, but did find the time and energy to read her books (either of which are far longer than my document - long as it is), listen to her interviews, go see her in person, and then pray about her message. I just hope people are willing to do their due diligence to come to know and follow after truth instead of just taking somebody's word for it - even mine. Otherwise we may discover that it is us who has been deceived.

[Onsdag]

For some reason, we expect to hear, particularly in welfare sessions, some ominous great predictions of calamities to come. Instead, we hear quiet counsel on ordinary things which, if followed, will protect us in times of great calamity.

Boyd K. Packer
The Gospel—The Foundation for Our Career

Thank you. Very wise counsel which I believe is true.

[AI2.0]

What parts do you disagree with? I don't ask to be contentious, but rather to have an open and sincere discussion about truths as I understand them. I myself am "on the fence" about some of the issues I raised and nearly didn't include them because I can see how my understanding could be wrong or flawed. I'm open and willing to hear and discuss alternate views or ideas, and will do so respectfully.

These are some of your points that I disagree with:

She reveals many new doctrines and/or teachings which have not been revealed before in scripture or by latter-day Prophets and Apostles.

When I read her book I felt she revealed nothing new so I don't think this can be proven. To me her book read like a Sunday School manual, for the most part.

1. Spirits as children and elderly in spirit world.

This is very common in near death and even heavenly manifestations. I believe spirits can appear in many different ages. We read of them appearing as they did in life but sometimes they will appear older or younger than in life. This is not a problem for me because it is quite common and makes sense. The other side is without time so it is natural to assume that spirits are not limited in time either.

2. Hair color. Julie describes spirits/personages with various hair colors,

I do not think there is any doctrine that says everyone in heaven has white hair. If we see a personage in their 'glory' then they will be brilliant and maybe their hair color looks white, but I believe it still has color. They also do not always appear in a glorified state but can look like a normal person. I think once again, you will find many instances of people seeing loved ones and they look as they did in life.

4. “Time in the Spirit World is different than time here on the earth”

I believe she is correct; 'time' is determined by our Sun, moon and earth and even if the spirit world is here, it is not bound by our mortal sphere--it is a different dimension. So without these constraints time will be different. I would expect this.

5. “There were many of the Lord’s creations found in the Spirit World that were not on the earth, including trees, shrubbery, flowers, animals and other of God’s beautiful creations” (p. 13).

I believe she could be correct, besides, there are still 1,000 years to come and maybe some things have not come to earth yet. I'd give her the benefit of the doubt on this. Also, maybe she is describing her own perception that what she saw was not familiar.

6. On page 22 Julie describes some of the work that “everyone there” (in the spirit world) was assigned and engaged in doing, among which was “family history work, temple work,” and “childcare.”

This is a big doctrinal red flag.

Firstly, we have prophetic revelation that all spirits, pre-mortal and post-mortal, are adults and that there are no spirits in child form (see point #1) – so what “childcare” would there be?

I don't agree that there is a doctrine that says there are no spirits in child form. Our spirits encompass ALL our forms, from embryo to old age, if you ask me. Also, it was Jos. F. Smith that said we'd raise our children who died in infancy and she's not the only one to see children in heaven--I've read number of accounts that refer to seeing children.
Also, I think the family history and temple work she is referring to is work on the other side in order to HELP us in the mortal side get the work done.

7. Food preparation and eating, part 1

Jesus ate while a resurrected being, I don't think we have much knowledge of what we will and won't be doing in our post earth life. I'd give her the benefit of the doubt--and common sense tells me we won't be eating the meat of dead creatures in heaven, that is not possible. I also think there is nothing wrong with assuming we don't eat meat, it if preposterous to think we do!
The fact is, we really have very little understanding of what we'll be doing on the other side, but I will say, I spend a lot of my time preparing food for my loved ones and we get A LOT of joy from eating delicious food--I would not be surprised if this was part of our post earth life, though certainly altered--but one thing, I don't see how it can involve the death of plants or animals.

Julie is right about Christopher Columbus, she's got a pretty good understanding of him and what he believed his mission was and yes, he intended to spread the 'gospel' as he believed it to be--yes, he was Catholic, but he believed this was the true gospel. I have no complaints about what she says.

I also felt that you were too nit picky in your criticisms regarding a number of the Old Testament stories she related. When I read her book, I found nothing wrong and even wondered if she'd been looking at some institute manuals and scriptural commentaries; very little of what she shared was new to me.

We don't know a lot about the Ark and Noah and plenty of other people have offered their speculations. She's welcome to offer her's also.

The Tower of Babel, She's welcome to add her explanations, I think plenty have offered their own. I think the wiki explanations are pretty far fetched too. I did know that about the City of Enoch being visible and they wanted to reach it--I noticed that she did not mention it. I think she said that lightning hit it, but I believe it is the Book of Jasher that says mighty winds knocked it over.

Julie is right about Isaac being about 30 years old, If she'd said he was a young boy or teen I'd have known for certain her book was false. I don't take everything that church leaders say as inspired. John Taylor was wrong, IMO and I disagreed with Joseph Fielding Smith who believed there was no death at all before Adam and Eve in the whole world. The Archeological record disagrees, IMO.

I think some of your other points are quibbling and I won't go into them. I do agree with you about Jacob Haun though. I think she's wrong about what she said and when I read her book it was a big red flag. I know she claims that the church historians are wrong and what she wrote is right--but it is pretty hard to figure out without additional information being unearthed to verify.

Yes, I agree that she lied about not reading other people's accounts. She has stated numerous times, in her book, online, on radio, and probably in person at firesides that she did not read other peoples books and accounts before writing her book so as not to be influenced by them. She is also on record elsewhere saying that she was given Roger's and Sarah Menet's books for Christmas some years prior to her ever writing her book. While this doesn't prove she read them there is strong circumstantial evidence that she had in fact read them during this time several years prior to writing her, book contrary to her claims otherwise. Good observation about her admittance of seeing similar things. While again circumstantial it does add to the body of evidence that she has lied.

This I think is THE smoking gun; that and the fact that she was on AVOW sharing her dreams and the dreams end up in her book--no mention of an NDE before the book. She claimed she never read anyone elses books, yet we have her stating on AVOW that she'd received these books back in 2006 and her own account is very similar to their books.

The only allusion in her book of her being a dreamer or visionary is at the beginning of the book she mentions having a dream/vision of her being hospitalized and seeing nurses and others attending to her - this prior to her hospital stay and the NDE actually happening. I don't have her book with me to verify, but I'm pretty certain she never once mentions in it that she has had dreams or other revelatory experiences afterwards which would validated her NDE or help bring the things she learned therein to her memory. Everything in her book reads as though what she experiences and witnesses therein came solely and directly from her NDE, and not from dreams or visions. She makes it explicitly clear throughout her book that everything she sees and witnesses therein is in fact very much her experience of going to the other side of the veil through a NDE. She doesn't once say anything about having dreams, visions, visitations from angels or other spirits, spiritual manifestations or witnesses from the Holy Ghost, or anything of the like, after her NDE to verify and validate that what she experienced really did happen, or to bring things back to her memory, or to teach her further light and knowledge.

I went back and started rereading her book and did find instances where she mentions having dreams. She did say that after her NDE in the hospital she had dreams of what she'd been shown(pg 159).

This is a big problem because there is a record, many years prior to Julie ever having written her book, that much of what is now found in her book actually came from dreams she has had throughout her life, including some happening well before her supposed NDE. In this record she never once mentions ever having had a NDE - everything is only claimed as dreams. Is it possible that she had both dreams and a NDE which validate each other? In my estimation it's possible, though highly unlikely. Why did she never once mention having had a NDE during this time? Apparently she now claims that she was to keep her NDE to herself and not publicize it until some (9) years after the event. But then this begs the question if such was the case then why was she actively publishing a great many "dreams" in 2009 on AVOW that would later find their way into her book as part of her NDE? This would be a serious breach of trust on her part to not publicize her experiences until after 9 years. It also doesn't explain why dreams she has had prior to her NDE are now part of her NDE.

I think what questions her credibility are these points:
1. She never mentioned her NDE on AVOW--it was always her dreams (dreams that started back in 1990) and it was these dreams that make up the bulk of what she shared in her book.
2. She claimed she was told not to share this information, yet she was sharing these dreams years before on AVOW.
3. My concern is that her message of preparedness varies from the church's message--she claims there is to be a 'call out' and having to have certain things to be eligible to go. The church does not say this and also emphasizes food storage, debt reduction, self reliance and emergency preparedness, but nothing about having transportation and camping equipment for a long stay in a tent city.

Your observation on Julie using techniques that psychic entertainers use is very enlightening and troubling too. Thank you for sharing it. I sense there is some truth to that. I don't know what techniques they use or how they perform their craft - I have never been interested in watching them or learning about it - but whenever I have listened to her something has felt off in the way she talks which I have never been able to place. Your thought provides some clarity as to why this may be.

You can find my comments here regarding Julie's interview:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=36845&start=30

[AI2.0]

I know some here are uncomfortable with this thread. They had good feelings when they read her book and they believed what she wrote.

The question that arises to me is; where did the information she shared with us come from? Dreams or a Near Death Experience? If you don't care where they came from and you don't care if she was less than honest in sharing where the information came from, then I guess this is not a problem for you, but for me, it is a problem.

It is also a problem that she had read Sarah Menet's book back in 2006 (she said on AVOW "I was first introduced to your website and books and Sarah Menet's book by a dear friend who gave them to me for a Christmas gift in Dec. 2006" (http://www.docdroid.net/negu/red-flags.odt.html.

If anyone wishes to suggest that she did not read the book when it was given to her, think again: She goes on to say "..she knew of my experiences and was the first to let me know about what you had gathered and it was then that I first read your books and learned in amazement about so many others who had very similar, if not identical dreams and visions I had been having. I had been told through personal revelation that I was not alone and there were many others who experienced these things as well, however it was not until that Christmas when I joined AVOW that I began to understand my own experiences better and to learn of the so-called 'call out'".

I have a problem with this because what she describes is VERY similar to other NDE's and if her information actually came from dreams, it could very well be that her readings of other people's dreams, visions and NDE's influenced and formed the dreams she had and what she shared in her book.

[xandr]

Has Julie responded yet to these inconsistencies in her story?

[shestalou]

Julie is not perfect as a matter of fact last I checked she was still mortal so yes she will probably have some inconsistancies, we all do in this life but I believe these experiences were for her and she chose to share what she was able to and I dont think people should read her book as a bible but as a friend sharing an awesome experience from God to her.

[xandr]

Easy. I'm not throwing stones. I'm sincerely wanting to know if she herself has responded to these questions here or elsewhere.

As an aside I've read both of her books and listened to the radio interviews.

[AI2.0]

Has Julie responded yet to these inconsistencies in her story?

Not that I know of.

Shestalou: Julie is not perfect as a matter of fact last I checked she was still mortal so yes she will probably have some inconsistancies, we all do in this life but I believe these experiences were for her and she chose to share what she was able to and I dont think people should read her book as a bible but as a friend sharing an awesome experience from God to her.

That is a nice sentiment, but I still feel uncomfortable with the fact that so many things that she shared as dreams on AVOW a few years before ended up as part of a Near Death experience and why there are inconsistencies in the claims of when she had these dreams and why she was still trying to understand her dreams years after her near death experience. I think these are reasonable questions.

[FosterClan]

I tried to read all of the info presented, but I couldn't get through it all. I have small children, and it would take a very long time. I also prefer documents in my hands, just like an actual book.

I have had the privilege to get to know Julie on a personal level. There were other things going on in my life, studying things, etc. When I read her book it was honestly like Heavenly Father gave me the info I needed. I was extremely grateful that she took the time to get to know me. Helped me with a lot of stuff I was dealing with. I was too on AVOW and talked with her before her book was published there.

I'm sad to see so many negative things said about her. Her message is of listening to the prophet, read your scriptures and learn how the spirit talks to you.
There is no way we have all of the details of the spirit world. Or even what other's experienced before.
She stated many times she wasn't given permission tell of he NDE. She has stated that she has had dreams through most of her life. I don't see why it is difficult to believe that the same dreams she had prior to her NDE she also saw in her NDE.

She gets hundreds of emails, for her to answer everyone's doubts she would have no time for her real priorities. You either believe she experienced or you don't. I don't see why the need to prove one way or another. Her message is of hope.

[durangout]

OK; let's try a little logic here...

Nephi, Lehi, Enoch, Moses, Ether, Moroni, Jacob, Ezekiel, Isaiah, Joel and John all saw in great detail the end-time events. An angel (1 Ne 145:20-28) commanded Nephi et al NOT to communicate these things to the world. The only person authorized with the mission to do so was John. John only did so in a veiled, symbolic way so that only those with the spirit of prophesy themselves would understand it.

What the JR followers are saying is JR is a greater prophet than all those listed above.

Anybody buy THAT? I don't.


btw is "FosterClan" another of the many avatars that JR has on this site?

[AI2.0]

She stated many times she wasn't given permission tell of he NDE. She has stated that she has had dreams through most of her life. I don't see why it is difficult to believe that the same dreams she had prior to her NDE she also saw in her NDE.

To justify Julie's actions we must assume that it was okay with Heavenly Father if she shared the content of her NDE, as long as she didn't tell anyone she'd experienced an NDE. And what would be the purpose in that? Why would it be alright for her to share the content but not the fact that it came from an NDE? Does that makes sense to you, because it sure doesn't to me.

Julie said this on AVOW:

Tent Cities – gathering to places of safety. Several and recurring starting in Spring of 2004 and consistently for a few years, until I finally journaled them. About three years after having my first tent dream I confided in my Stake President and Relief society president that I was having a lot of dreams about the last days. I did not tell my stake president specifics about tent cities, but I told him about the plaques, famines, droughts, collapse of the U.S. economy, earthquakes and wars I was seeing in my dreams. He said he felt they were of spiritual significance and counseled me to continue praying for understanding. My Relief Society President at the time bought me Roger’s book “Dreams and Visions of the Last Days” in December of 2006. This was a huge answer to my prayers because I was feel very weighed down and overwhelmed at the intensity of some of my dreams, and not understanding why I was having them at increasing rates. She also offered to type them for me while I dictated to her what I had seen in my dreams and this was a major blessing for me. After typing several of my dreams and finding that they were very similar, and in some cases the details were identical, my friend referred me to the AVOW site (around the Spring of 2007). I finally got the courage to check out the AVOW site during the Fall of 2007. I joined shortly thereafter and have been a “silent member” just reading the dreams or others and comments people make. This week, September 2009, I have now decided I have the courage and feel comfortable sharing some of my experiences with AVOW members.

She shares her dreams and even dictates them to her friend. But this is the problem--the dreams ARE the same as her NDE. So exactly what is it that God did not want her to share until 2014?

Here is a dream she related in 2009:

Then I saw the same scene as before, only off to the side of the camp there was a huge white tent. It looked similar to the pictures of the tabernacle the Jews had while wandering in the wilderness with Moses. Above it I could see a very bright light and it looked as though fire was coming out of the top of the tent - but it was hovering. The thought came to me that this was indeed a temporary temple. I saw people dressed in white clothing standing near the entrance of the tent, as if they were guarding it. There was a fence surrounding the perimeter, and two armed men guarding several feet away on both sides of the area, outside of the fence. I saw a a man and a woman enter the tent after talking to a man dressed in white who was standing at the entrance.
I heard the word templework and that scene ended. The view panned out again and I was looking at the United States from the sky again. Through thought I knew that the fire represented the presence of the Spirit of the Lord at these places. I am not sure how many there were, because this scene did not last long, and by the time I realized what I was looking at, I did not count them. It seemed like there were several, but there were more areas without fire then those with fire. There were probably only five or six fires, and about twenty tent cities in the Rocky Mountain area, and a few scattered throughout other parts of the U.S. I did not see any fires in Washington state, the Midwest, or in the East.

Here is an excerpt from her Near death experience:

Off to the side of the camp there was a huge white tent. It looked similar to the pictures of the tabernacle the Jews had while wandering in the wilderness with Moses, although there was no altar in the courtyard area. I could see a very bright light above it and it looked as though fire was coming out of the top of the tent – but it was hovering in place. The thought came to me that this was indeed a temporary temple. I saw people dressed in white clothing standing near the entrance of the tent, as if they were guarding it. There was a fence surrounding the perimeter, and two armed men were outside of the fence, guarding the area. I saw a man and a woman enter the tent after talking to a man dressed in white who was standing near the entrance. I heard the words ‘temple work’ and the scene ended. The view panned out again and I was looking at the United States from the sky again. I knew that the fire represented the presence of the Spirit of the Lord at these places. I am not sure how many there were, because the scene did not last long, and by the time I realized what I was looking at, I did not count them. It seemed like there were several, but there were more areas without fire than those with fire.”

Some of it is word for word.

She said that she was approached to publish a book in 2014 and she wrote 'A Greater Tomorrow' in just a few weeks. The logical conclusion is that she was able to do this by going back and using recorded dreams which she had dictated to her friend and that is why so much of the same content showed up in her book. Now, if you want to believe that everything she dreamed about from 1990 to the present was all shown to her in her NDE, you have the right and she did say that after her NDE she had dreams and saw some of the same things--that is a reasonable explanation for the dreams after 2004 being in her book--but it still does not explain what exactly she was forbidden to share until 2014? If she did have an NDE, then she was sharing the content before she was supposed to--the only thing she did not share was that she learned these things through a near death experience--instead, she told her readers on AVOW that she learned these things through dreams. So I ask again, what was it she was not supposed to share?

Also, If she'd been having these dreams for many years before her NDE, then would we not expect that her NDE would have provided the answers? Why is she still confused about their meaning and their content if she'd been to the other side of the veil? Personally, I would expect the NDE to have made the dreams clear, but from her postings at AVOW, she's clearly confused by the dreams. This just doesn't jibe with what she put forward in her book.

She gets hundreds of emails, for her to answer everyone's doubts she would have no time for her real priorities. You either believe she experienced or you don't. I don't see why the need to prove one way or another. Her message is of hope.

If this doesn't bother you fine, ignore it. But some of us want answers and so far I'm getting none. The more I look into this, the more questions I have.

[Robin Hood]

I'm joining this discussion late, but I would commend Onsdag.
As many of you know, I realised very quickly that Julie Rowe was a fraud and I have stated so frequently on this forum. Her inconsistencies, and her astoundingly obvious plagiarism just jumped out of the pages at me from the outset. I remember she made some quite hysterical comments in reply to my observations!
Sadly, some of the Saints will swallow her hoax hook, line and sinker and will be disappointed in the end.
Meanwhile, she's laughing all the way to the bank.

[triple777]

I trust Julie as far as I can throw her... not very far.

[Onsdag]

These are some of your points that I disagree with:

She reveals many new doctrines and/or teachings which have not been revealed before in scripture or by latter-day Prophets and Apostles.

When I read her book I felt she revealed nothing new so I don't think this can be proven. To me her book read like a Sunday School manual, for the most part.

I agree with you that for the most part there is nothing new in her book that can't be learned from reading the scriptures and words of the prophets. Even many of her predictions for the future are very similar to what other people have discussed from their dreams and visions, though perhaps not as common knowledge, and could have easily been lifted or learned from sites such as AVOW. Still, she does teach some things as truth which have no support (at least which I have been able to find) from scriptures or prophetic words.

1. Spirits as children and elderly in spirit world.

This is very common in near death and even heavenly manifestations. I believe spirits can appear in many different ages. We read of them appearing as they did in life but sometimes they will appear older or younger than in life. This is not a problem for me because it is quite common and makes sense. The other side is without time so it is natural to assume that spirits are not limited in time either.

Yes, there are a number of reliable near death experiences and heavenly visitations wherein the person witnessed someone from the other side who was a child or elderly. Yet in every such instance I have been able to find it appears that the person who they see is someone they knew in mortality who had passed away earlier. As far as I understand and discern they are appearing to them in the form in which they would be recognized by the person having the experience. I don't ever recall reading of any reliable NDE's where someone saw random people in the spirit world as children or elderly, only people they knew and would recognize as such. This appears to be perfectly in line with revelations from what the prophets and apostles have taught us which I have pointed out previously. They have made it abundantly clear that there are no children in the spirit world because all spirits there are in adult form.

Yet Julie's experience does not seem to fit this pattern. She mentions nothing about these people appearing old or young so that she would recognize them as people she knew while in mortality. Rather, for the most part, they appear to just be random people in the spirit world. There may be a few exceptions where she does indicate some of the elderly people as being relatives, but in the context of her book it is only ever implied that they are probably distant ancestors or family who she did not even recognize or never knew while in mortality and had to be introduced to them. As for all of the children and some of the other elderly she sees, they only ever appear to be random strangers.

If Julie truly did see spirits as children in the spirit world then as far as I can discern one of the following must be going on:

• These righteous spirits are close friends/family of Julie and appeared as children to her so that she would recognize them from their mortal life before they passed away. This is a possibility. However, there is no indication from Julie that such is the case - instead they appear to be random and total strangers.
• These righteous spirits are appearing as children to other people who happen to be having a NDE at the same exact time as Julie is so that these other people having their NDE would recognize them as such, and Julie just happens to see them in their child form during this time. Highly unlikely. There are a number of different appearances of children during her visit, including Julie seeing a "childcare." Even if this is what Julie was witnessing it might explain seeing a few of the children, but since there are no spirits as children in the spirit world then a "childcare" would be completely out of place.
• Julie did see spirit children, but it was an elaborate deception by Satan and other deceiving spirits. Since "it is contrary to the order of heaven for a just man to deceive" (D&C 129:7) then these spirits appearing as children are not righteous spirits but deceiving spirits trying to trick Julie by appearing as little children. I suppose while possible it just doesn't seem very reasonable.
• This experience wasn't from a NDE, but rather from dreams Julie has had. Most likely explanation. If these experiences came from dreams that Julie had then anything is possible - even seeing things that normally are not possible. There is pretty strong evidence that most everything in her book about her NDE actually came from dreams she has had throughout her life. We even have Julie's own words that she has had several "spirit world" dreams, which strengthens my opinion that this is what happened.
• Julie fabricated the whole thing. This experience never really did happen and is all just a big lie on the part of Julie. This is quite possible.
• Something else I just don't understand or know about is going on. This may be entirely possible, though without further details is likely a non-issue.

You bring up an interesting point about time. And it could explain much about how spirits are able to appear at varying stages of growth and development, even as they are all adults. In Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Brigham Young, chapter 38, Brigham Young taught:

But yonder, how different! They move with ease and like lightning. If we want to visit Jerusalem, or this, that, or the other place—and I presume we will be permitted if we desire—there we are, looking at its streets. If we want to behold Jerusalem as it was in the days of the Savior; or if we want to see the Garden of Eden as it was when created, there we are, and we see it as it existed spiritually, for it was created first spiritually and then temporally, and spiritually it still remains. And when there we may behold the earth as at the dawn of creation, or we may visit any city we please that exists upon its surface. If we wish to understand how they are living here on these western islands, or in China, we are there; in fact, we are like the light of the morning.

This indicates that as spirits we are not constrained in time or space, at least it seems we would be allowed to visit anywhere on earth and any time on earth - at least past or present... interestingly he doesn't mention anything about being able to visit the future. Still, we have many prophets who have seen the future in vision so it very well may be possible to in the spirit world. However, I still believe that time flows in the spirit world for them just as it does for us, else why would many of them have to wait for hundreds and even thousands of years for people on earth to do their temple work for them? Also, why would Christ say that no man, including the angels in heaven, know when his second coming is if they would freely be able to travel through time and witness his coming? There must at least be some constraints on time in the spirit world. And it seems reasonable to me that time flows for them just as it does for us. I admit though that this is something that I don't fully understand and it very well may be that Julie is right to some extent that time flows differently there in the spirit world. We just don't have enough revealed information to say conclusively how this all works.

2. Hair color. Julie describes spirits/personages with various hair colors,

I do not think there is any doctrine that says everyone in heaven has white hair. If we see a personage in their 'glory' then they will be brilliant and maybe their hair color looks white, but I believe it still has color. They also do not always appear in a glorified state but can look like a normal person. I think once again, you will find many instances of people seeing loved ones and they look as they did in life.

You may be right. We may even perceive things differently while in the spirit so that we can discern hair colors. I just don't know enough. However, much of the knowledge we have about these things comes from second hand sources. I have tried to back up my position with what we know from the scriptures and prophets - and this evidence leans heavily in favor of white being the predominant (if not exclusive) hair color of heavenly beings, at least from the celestial realms of glory. While your view may support things being different in the spirit world, I'm pretty sure that at least in heaven celestial beings in their glory have white hair. This poses a problem at least for Julie's description for Heavenly Mother because Julie indicates that she left the spirit world and went to heaven and saw God the Father and Jesus Christ there, and also Heavenly Mother surrounded by children - and then indicated she had dark hair.

4. “Time in the Spirit World is different than time here on the earth”

I believe she is correct; 'time' is determined by our Sun, moon and earth and even if the spirit world is here, it is not bound by our mortal sphere--it is a different dimension. So without these constraints time will be different. I would expect this.

Again, you (and Julie) may be right. We simply don't know enough to make a clear judgment call on this. Even so, I am more inclined to stand by my position that time flows there the same as it does for us - though perhaps we are not constrained by it to the same extent as we are in mortality. Else why are there indications from the prophets and scriptures that the spirits are in a state of waiting (often many years) for their work to be done for them?

5. “There were many of the Lord’s creations found in the Spirit World that were not on the earth, including trees, shrubbery, flowers, animals and other of God’s beautiful creations” (p. 13).

I believe she could be correct, besides, there are still 1,000 years to come and maybe some things have not come to earth yet. I'd give her the benefit of the doubt on this. Also, maybe she is describing her own perception that what she saw was not familiar.

I'm not sure she would see anything in the spirit world that does not pertain to the temporal world as well. I'm certain she could see those things if they were in heaven or some other of God's creations as his creations are infinite. But as for things that pertain to this world they are the same whether spiritually or physically. Therefore I don't think she could have seen them if it was in fact the spirit world she saw. And I agree with you - it is possible that she saw things from a different time, things which are now extinct, or things yet to come, or things she simply hasn't seen before because she has never seen them while in mortality (such as rare flowers from deep within the amazon forest). However, this isn't what she suggests in her book, but rather that what she is seeing is otherworldly and not from our earth. Still, I am willing to give her the benefit of the doubt because there is simply not enough information and context. I would say this point is therefore inconclusive.

6. On page 22 Julie describes some of the work that “everyone there” (in the spirit world) was assigned and engaged in doing, among which was “family history work, temple work,” and “childcare.”

This is a big doctrinal red flag.

Firstly, we have prophetic revelation that all spirits, pre-mortal and post-mortal, are adults and that there are no spirits in child form (see point #1) – so what “childcare” would there be?

I don't agree that there is a doctrine that says there are no spirits in child form. Our spirits encompass ALL our forms, from embryo to old age, if you ask me. Also, it was Jos. F. Smith that said we'd raise our children who died in infancy and she's not the only one to see children in heaven--I've read number of accounts that refer to seeing children.
Also, I think the family history and temple work she is referring to is work on the other side in order to HELP us in the mortal side get the work done.

All of the information that we have (at least that I have been able to find) is that all spirits (at least that pertain to our world - whether still in a pre-mortal or post-mortal state) are adult in form. If they do appear differently it is solely for purposes of recognition to the person they are appearing to. I have found absolutely nothing that would indicate otherwise.

Joseph F. Smith's statement is that those who die in infancy will again, after the resurrection, be restored to an infant state as far as their physical body goes and will therefore be raised by their righteous parents until their bodies have reached full maturity. This does not negate the fact that our spirits are already fully mature. Our spirits were fully mature and in adult form before we took upon ourselves a mortal body. The only time that our spirits were babies, infants, or children is - I suspect - when our Heavenly Mother gave birth to our spirit bodies and we were raised in the mansions of heaven many untold eons ago prior to our second estate.

As for other people seeing spirits as children - I don't disagree. But again, almost always the reason given is for purposes of recognition and familiarity - and not that the spirits are actual children. For example, I have heard of people seeing in dream or vision spirit children who would later be born to them - and then later when they are born and raised they realize that is the person they saw because that is how their spiritual bodies appeared to them. Same goes for children who passed away in childhood and a parent sees in vision or dream their child coming to them and comforting them. Again though it's because that is how the person would recognize them and not because that spirit is a child.

Unless and until you or anyone else is able to find a prophetic or scriptural account detailing otherwise then I strongly maintain my position that all spirits - pre-mortal or post-mortal - are adults and that the only time they appear otherwise is for purposes of identification to those they are appearing to. I have never read a reliable account where spirits appear as children unless there is a reason for it. Julie's is the first that I can recall that says otherwise and I would hardly call her account reliable...

7. Food preparation and eating, part 1

Jesus ate while a resurrected being, I don't think we have much knowledge of what we will and won't be doing in our post earth life. I'd give her the benefit of the doubt--and common sense tells me we won't be eating the meat of dead creatures in heaven, that is not possible. I also think there is nothing wrong with assuming we don't eat meat, it if preposterous to think we do!
The fact is, we really have very little understanding of what we'll be doing on the other side, but I will say, I spend a lot of my time preparing food for my loved ones and we get A LOT of joy from eating delicious food--I would not be surprised if this was part of our post earth life, though certainly altered--but one thing, I don't see how it can involve the death of plants or animals.

We should differentiate between heaven and the spirit world as they are two separate places with (I suspect) separate laws governing each. As for heaven I don't know what or even if we will be eating. I tend to believe that food will be a part of our enjoyment there as resurrected and glorified beings. As for the spirit world though - even though there isn't much revealed information, based on what little we do have I am more inclined to believe that as spirits we won't be eating or drinking.

Julie is right about Christopher Columbus, she's got a pretty good understanding of him and what he believed his mission was and yes, he intended to spread the 'gospel' as he believed it to be--yes, he was Catholic, but he believed this was the true gospel. I have no complaints about what she says.

You both may be right. I don't know enough about him and the whole issue to adequately comment. However, there is a pretty big difference between what Christopher Columbus believed was his mission, what he understood of the gospel and scriptures, and what Julie claims that he actually did and accomplished. For example, while Columbus may have truly and sincerely believed he discovered a new heaven and earth and thus fulfilled that Bible prophecy that there would be a new heaven and earth - the truth is that this prophecy isn't specifically about "discovering" a new land but about the change the earth and heavens is to go through and has yet to be fulfilled. Julie should know this but yet she claims that he did fulfill these Bible prophecies - when in truth Columbus only believe he had fulfilled them. To me this indicates that Julie is a student of history and did do her research on Columbus - and then proceeded to try validating his claims by saying the same thing.

I also felt that you were too nit picky in your criticisms regarding a number of the Old Testament stories she related. When I read her book, I found nothing wrong and even wondered if she'd been looking at some institute manuals and scriptural commentaries; very little of what she shared was new to me.

We don't know a lot about the Ark and Noah and plenty of other people have offered their speculations. She's welcome to offer her's also.

Yes, perhaps I was being too critical at times. And yet because I did examine some of her stories with a critical eye I was able to find greater evidence that her story is false. For example, I never would have discovered her usage of the Bible Dictionary (some of it word for word) to fabricate some of her stories if I did not look in there myself trying to do research to see if the things she was saying was true. I was stunned to see how much some of her stories were taken directly from the Bible Dictionary. To me it was immediate and clear evidence of plagiarism - and not only that but that she had purposefully tried to make enough changes so that it wouldn't be discovered. By so doing Julie has shown that she is knowingly and willfully trying to deceive others - all the while claiming that her account is completely true and of her own experience with the divine.

The Tower of Babel, She's welcome to add her explanations, I think plenty have offered their own. I think the wiki explanations are pretty far fetched too. I did know that about the City of Enoch being visible and they wanted to reach it--I noticed that she did not mention it. I think she said that lightning hit it, but I believe it is the Book of Jasher that says mighty winds knocked it over.

Yes, she is welcome to offer her opinions and explanations - just so long as she makes it very clear that that is what it is. Instead, she makes it abundantly clear and claims that everything in her book is true and was learned from her visit to the spirit world. I don't put much stock in the wiki explanations either. I merely referenced the wiki to show there is much varying opinion and research on the tower's height - none of which even remotely approaches Julie's descriptions or claims. I actually prefer and have tried to back up my research with what the scriptures and prophets teach - which again casts doubts on the veracity of Julie's claims. As for the Book of Jasher, well, since it isn't part of our standard works then I don't care to use it for support.

Julie is right about Isaac being about 30 years old, If she'd said he was a young boy or teen I'd have known for certain her book was false. I don't take everything that church leaders say as inspired. John Taylor was wrong, IMO and I disagreed with Joseph Fielding Smith who believed there was no death at all before Adam and Eve in the whole world. The Archeological record disagrees, IMO.

So why is Julie right about Isaac being around 30? I haven't found anything to support this, but rather all my research (enumerated in the document) points to him being much younger. I think one person sent me a message saying that the Apocrypha teaches that he was around that age, somewhere in his 30's, but I hesitate to use the Apocrypha as support. I can understand the point of view and that it perhaps makes for a better story if he was a fully grown and mature man who knowingly and willingly went completely of his own free choice. Yet I believe he did that anyways - even if he was just a young boy. I entered the waters of baptism willingly at the tender age of 8, even if I did not know fully at the time what it all meant. I don't think any different of Isaac - he was being obedient and did so of his own choice, even if he didn't fully understand what it was that he was getting himself into. Unless there is some pretty strong support and evidence for him being in his 30's, then so far the evidences weigh heavily in favor of him being much younger.

Yes, I agree that she lied about not reading other people's accounts. She has stated numerous times, in her book, online, on radio, and probably in person at firesides that she did not read other peoples books and accounts before writing her book so as not to be influenced by them. She is also on record elsewhere saying that she was given Roger's and Sarah Menet's books for Christmas some years prior to her ever writing her book. While this doesn't prove she read them there is strong circumstantial evidence that she had in fact read them during this time several years prior to writing her, book contrary to her claims otherwise. Good observation about her admittance of seeing similar things. While again circumstantial it does add to the body of evidence that she has lied.

This I think is THE smoking gun; that and the fact that she was on AVOW sharing her dreams and the dreams end up in her book--no mention of an NDE before the book. She claimed she never read anyone elses books, yet we have her stating on AVOW that she'd received these books back in 2006 and her own account is very similar to their books.

Really? I do think it provides very strong and irrefutable evidence of where she got much of her materials for her book. But at the same time I can see how people could easily dismiss it as evidence since they could argue that her dreams are something of a second witness to what she learned in her NDE. There are of course problems with that argument, primarily that if such is the case then why has she clearly expressed doubts and lack of knowledge about what the dreams mean or if they will truly happen literally - particularly if she already had the NDE years before as a reference point wherein she is constantly saying things such as "it was made very clear to me." Still, I agree that it is very strong evidence that her book is not true "just as it is written." I just believe some of the strongest evidences are the points where she clearly contradicts scriptures and prophets, as well as the plagiarism issues.

I went back and started rereading her book and did find instances where she mentions having dreams. She did say that after her NDE in the hospital she had dreams of what she'd been shown(pg 159).

Thanks. I know that outside of her book she has often said that her dreams act as a second witness to her NDE. I just don't buy it. As you well know there are many issues with that claim.

I think what questions her credibility are these points:
1. She never mentioned her NDE on AVOW--it was always her dreams (dreams that started back in 1990) and it was these dreams that make up the bulk of what she shared in her book.
2. She claimed she was told not to share this information, yet she was sharing these dreams years before on AVOW.
3. My concern is that her message of preparedness varies from the church's message--she claims there is to be a 'call out' and having to have certain things to be eligible to go. The church does not say this and also emphasizes food storage, debt reduction, self reliance and emergency preparedness, but nothing about having transportation and camping equipment for a long stay in a tent city.

I agree. Though I would add to that list a number of other things.

Your observation on Julie using techniques that psychic entertainers use is very enlightening and troubling too. Thank you for sharing it. I sense there is some truth to that. I don't know what techniques they use or how they perform their craft - I have never been interested in watching them or learning about it - but whenever I have listened to her something has felt off in the way she talks which I have never been able to place. Your thought provides some clarity as to why this may be.

You can find my comments here regarding Julie's interview:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=36845&start=30

Thanks. Going back and reading others of her statements, as well as listening to her interviews, it becomes more apparent how she employs these techniques to try adding credibility to her account without tipping her hand too much.

[AI2.0]

Onsdag, what happened with the threatening letter you received? Were you able to find out who sent it?

Is Julie still on AVOW? Did any of the posters there besides you and Sarah voice concerns over Julie's claims?